These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean has the big story. Dean has the big mytharc for a change.  

I don't think we actually know this.  All we know is that Jensen is going to end up playing a character that isn't Dean.  There is no guarantee that this comes as a result of a BDH moment or in a moment of reckless despair like when Dean took on the Mark of Cain.

Given that its Sam who appeals to Gabe, Sam who has the stronger relationship with Jack, Sam who has the destiny with Rowena and Sam whose supposed to go through some harrowing moment, Id say Sam has a bigger story than Dean at this point.  (This isn't meant as B vs J just based on current released spoilers)

[belbar]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

While I agree that this was the original concept of the show they do seem to be working with Dean as the BDH and Sam as the sensitive caretaking sidekick this season.  I think they have finally switched the  formula after fighting the fact that Dean was the iconic standout character for 12 seasons.

Well if that's the goal it remains to be seen, and even if that happens, good luck with that. Jensen worked his ass off to develop the character and has the acting skills for it and back then we had good enough writer to work out good stories. Now the writers are not up to par in my opinion and I think that Jared is more focused in how many days he may spend off set. So a complete turn around of it all could prove to be hard to pull off.

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, Reganne said:

Though I don't think the show necessarily needs to make everything exactly equal for Sam and Dean, I do hope that Dean becoming this new entity doesn't have anything to do with Sam.  As in, not Sam's mistakes or failures.  Sam's mistakes have been way overdone and with his lack of hunting skills this year so far, I would like to see them do something different with Sam.  Sometimes I feel the narrative almost paints Sam as a burden on Dean, especially this season and past childhood flashbacks.  I don't want Dean to have to say 'yes' for example to save weak, unable to defend himself Sam.  In other words, because Sam failed again.  I'm ok with it happening now and then (it does happen to other characters sometimes), but this season it has been too much with Sam getting knocked out all the time and needing saving.  

 

I would much rather it be to save the world or right a mistake that Dean himself has made.  I am ok with either.  

Devil's advocate here...

Shout out to the fact that Billie is involved in some capacity and the idea has been brought up by Jessica that if things,become off kilter a culling might be required.

Billie might be looking to Dean to rectify things by causing thousands of people to die.

In my opinion the problem with Sam starting the Apocalypse was that he never really took responsibility for his actions. The idea that he suffered too seemed to be enough for him.

This is why in my opinion Carver's Fall and Redemption arc for Sam in seasons 8-11 are so important. He actually shows grief over tbe kives lost and remorse and stones and apologized and makes amends and does better...  It turned him from a much disliked to a liked character in my opinion.

I have no worries about Dean.  He already has the character development that Sam lacked initially.  He is a multifaceted and complex character. If he goes dark I have no doubt we will understand why.

5 minutes ago, belbar said:

Well if that's the goal it remains to be seen, and even if that happens, good luck with that. Jensen worked his ass off to develop the character and has the acting skills for it and back then we had good enough writer to work out good stories. Now the writers are not up to par in my opinion and I think that Jared is more focused in how many days he may spend off set. So a complete turn around of it all could prove to be hard to pull off.

Not going to argue with you on these points.  Jensen had a huge impact on why Dean worked and why Dean transcended hackneyed writing.  Kripke is,a hack.  Manners and Ackles and some good writers in the stable are why Supernatural became great for a time.

I think they are finally trying to give Dean a great storyline. I just wish he had better writers.  They are doing some things well.  Not everything.

Last season was meh.  

[Castiels Cat]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think we actually know this.  All we know is that Jensen is going to end up playing a character that isn't Dean.  There is no guarantee that this comes as a result of a BDH moment or in a moment of reckless despair like when Dean took on the Mark of Cain.

Given that its Sam who appeals to Gabe, Sam who has the stronger relationship with Jack, Sam who has the destiny with Rowena and Sam whose supposed to go through some harrowing moment, Id say Sam has a bigger story than Dean at this point.  (This isn't meant as B vs J just based on current released spoilers)

Sam has the emotional storylines.  These are not the mytharc storylines. Dean is going to have the mytharc storylines.

Remember when Dean woukd interact with all of the characters...

[belbar]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Last season was meh.

Last season was so bad that I don't even want to think about it.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, belbar said:

Last season was so bad that I don't even want to think about it.

 

2 minutes ago, belbar said:

Last season was so bad that I don't even want to think about it.

I stopped taping it. I stopped with the boards. I stopoed writing reviews.  I think I may start taping again depending on 23.

Now even though I stopped taking it I did enjoy some things. I liked Mary.  I knew immediately we were heading towards the Apocalypse and I knew in my gut we were going to get Dean!Michael.  Oh and Rick Springfield was great.

But so much meh.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

This is what they are going for in the writing.  Does Jared sell it as well as Jensen...no.

Does Sam always seem to want something in return... maybe...

But this season stars,Sam as stay at home Sam whilst Dean is off doing stuff.  We have seen it over and over and over.

 I don't think it's Jared's acting that's an issue. 

If I look at Jared's acting as straightforward, which is generally how I see it. I think he's playing Sam as not really comfortable in the role of "caregiver". I think there are some cracks in that armor a bit.

I think that was shown in Regarding Dean that he didn't really know exactly how to respond to Dean's demise. It progressed to where Sam was adapting but not as fast as Dean was changing. And that I found pretty believable.  None of that is a knock on Sam at all. That's not me saying Sam doesn't love Dean or won't try to help him. I'm saying I think Jared is playing it that Sam is not really comfortable in that position and a little out of his depth because he's generally been on the receiving end in that situation. Even in s10, Sam wasn't really caregiving for Dean. He was trying to stop him from going full dark side again. 

And this stuff with Gabriel is basically caregiving but there does seem to be a cost to it. I dunno. That's just what I'm seeing from Jared's acting.  I don't think he's selling us anything hidden.

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I don't think it's Jared's acting that's an issue. 

If I look at Jared's acting as straightforward, which is generally how I see it. I think he's playing Sam as not really comfortable in the role of "caregiver". I think there are some cracks in that armor a bit.

I think that was shown in Regarding Dean that he didn't really know exactly how to respond to Dean's demise. It progressed to where Sam was adapting but not as fast as Dean was changing. And that I found pretty believable.  None of that is a knock on Sam at all. That's not me saying Sam doesn't love Dean or won't try to help him. I'm saying I think Jared is playing it that Sam is not really comfortable in that position and a little out of his depth because he's generally been on the receiving end in that situation. Even in s10, Sam wasn't really caregiving for Dean. He was trying to stop him from going full dark side again. 

And this stuff with Gabriel is basically caregiving but there does seem to be a cost to it. I dunno. That's just what I'm seeing from Jared's acting.  I don't think he's selling us anything hidden.

Gotcha. All I am saying is that he is being shifted into this role now.

Yes.  It comes to Dean naturally because he has been doing it since he was 4.

Sam was manipulating Jack and Gabriel as well beca use he wants something from both ...  And Dean too... He did not want Dean to try suicide again!!!!

We have yet to see him care for someone when he expects nothing... Well I guess when he does food runs. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[belbar]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

 

I stopped taking it.  I tbink I may start taking again depending on 23.

Now even though I stopped taking it I did enjoy some things. I liked Mary.  I knew immediately we were heading towards the Apocalypse and I knew in my gut we were going to get Dean!Michael.  Oh and Rick Springfield was great.

But so much meh.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on both counts. I hated the Mary resurrection from the start (mainly because I had clear that it couldn't work out. Come on middle age men brooding about mom is not exactly appealing) and Rick Springfield is not my cup of tea, not to mention the idea of Lucifer back again is so over done that by now is laugheable.

[catrox14]

Sam is still aligned with Lucifer/Rowena/Jac who are the "big bads" ***this season. He's aligned with Jack. He's still completely attached to mytharc. Maybe this season it's actually going to end up with both brothers in the mytharc.

Dean had the emotional stuff with his grief over Cas and Mary. I think they are trying to give Sam some emotional stuff now but IMO aren't really handling it well, which I largely attribute the diversion to setting up Wayward Sisters.  I think if that hadn't come about this flip around would make a lot more sense.

***in addition to AU Michael and Asmodeus but he's dead now....sooo....

Edited April 26, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

34 minutes ago, belbar said:

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on both counts. I hated the Mary resurrection from the start (mainly because I had clear that it couldn't work out. Come on middle age men brooding about mom is not exactly appealing) and Rick Springfield is not my cup of tea, not to mention the idea of Lucifer back again is so over done that by now is laugheable.

Yeah. I get that I am in the minority on Mary.

Mary is Dean's hair trigger on his fear of loss of family whichbtrigfers his tragic flaw, the,reckless self sacrifice maneuver. So intellectually it was brilliant to bring her back then have her be ever absent like Tantalus' grapes.  She was in the end flawed like Sam but still his beloved family. Then he loses her justblije he lost Sam when she goes through a rift with Lucifer....  

Now he is so desperate to save her... so intellectually with the new Apocalypse and Dean!Michael.... for me it is some incredible plotting over two seasons and I am rather astonished that Dabbler and Hacks did this.

As for Rick Springfield, Lucifer has pretty much been one note since Abandon All Hope and most of his scares come from movie tropes and Christan lore... I thought Rick made him scary again with mascara. I enjoyed the brief ride.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam is still aligned with Lucifer/Rowena/Jac who are the "big bads" this season. He's aligned with Jack. He's still completely attached to mytharc. Maybe this season it's actually going to end up with both brothers in the mytharc.

Dean had the emotional stuff with his grief over Cas and Mary. I think they are trying to give Sam some emotional stuff now but IMO aren't really handling it well, which I largely attribute the diversion to setting up Wayward Sisters.  I think if that hadn't come about this flip around would make a lot more sense.

Both brothers are aligned to Jack.  Jack looks up to Dean primarily; we see Jack mimicking Dean only and Jack only smiles when he has Dean's aporoval. Jack mentions both brothers  as influences citingvDean first.  Jack is tied to AU Michael.  AU Michael is the Macguffin. He is the Maltese Falcon.  I do not think having an emotional arc with Jack or Rowena gives one the mytharc. 

Emotional arcs are not mytharc. In seasons past when Dean did not have the mytharc Dean always had the emotional arcs.

We know Dean's go to solution is reckless self sacrifice to save family/save the day. We know Dean steps up big time. We know Dean becomes another person.  It is not a reach to say Dean sacrifices himself to become a powerful entity to save the day.  This is the mytharc role by definition. )_(

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[belbar]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

I thought Rick made him scary again with mascara. I enjoyed the brief ride.

Lol. The image was scary, I'll give you that.

As for Mary, the plotting idea from that perspective could has been interesting. Key word being "could has been". I could have been Marilyn Monroe, yet here I am.

[Castiels Cat]

19 minutes ago, belbar said:

Lol. The image was scary, I'll give you that.

As for Mary, the plotting idea from that perspective could has been interesting. Key word being "could has been". I could have been Marilyn Monroe, yet here I am.

Yes. It could have been better.  The writers could be better. Ideally every season should be as good as season 4.

This is what they were doing I think.  Mary absorbed many season 1-5 tropes.  She basically was season 1-5 Sam and hurt Dean in the same ways despite being his mom.  Well hurt him more because she was a huge letdown from that idealized mommy shrine in his head.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is not a reach to say Dean sacrifices himself to become a powerful entity to save the day.  This is the mytharc role by definition. )_(

And I didn't say Dean wasn't going to get a mytharc. I'm saying that Sam is also in line for that and why I said maybe this time both have the emotional beats and mytharc things. I hope that makes my comment a little more clear.

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam is still aligned with Lucifer/Rowena/Jac who are the "big bads" this season. He's aligned with Jack. He's still completely attached to mytharc. Maybe this season it's actually going to end up with both brothers in the mytharc.

Dean had the emotional stuff with his grief over Cas and Mary. I think they are trying to give Sam some emotional stuff now but IMO aren't really handling it well, which I largely attribute the diversion to setting up Wayward Sisters.  I think if that hadn't come about this flip around would make a lot more sense.

Dean's emotional stuff was to push him into reckless self sacrifice. His tragic flaw is triggered after he suffers the depression and despair over the loss of family and/or loved ones through death/inaccessible realm/or alienation.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean had the emotional stuff with his grief over Cas and Mary. I think they are trying to give Sam some emotional stuff now but IMO aren't really handling it well, which I largely attribute the diversion to setting up Wayward Sisters.  I think if that hadn't come about this flip around would make a lot more sense.

While WS did impede the season, I dont' think its soley to blame.  Because the episode going in, Dean held a gun to Kaia's head.  He felt guilty and was desperate to save Mary.  But then in Jurassic Park, Dean's like "meh."  Dabb simply had to adjust the writing in those scenes.  I get Sam and Dean had to be the damsels in distress that ep, but they still could have Sam and Dean's characterization consistent. 

When Dean is on a mission he can get reckless so him not noticing they were being followed by mysterious robed girl still could have happened.

Then suddenly Dean's okay with slowing down and Sam has lost faith completely.  Why?   They didnt' have a way to save Mary in the first half but Sam had faith she was alive.  Nothing really changed other then it was confirmed he was right.   I know its said Dean buried his emotions to help Sam, but I didn't see that.  Jensen is usually so good with the subtle stuff to let us know that Dean isn't okay.  Drinking the hard stuff is usally a sign but I think we've seen Dean only drink once from the flask in the premier, otherwise its just beer.  The only time we saw it was excessive was in ep 3 and that was a blink and you'll miss it moment. 

Then suddenly, Dean went from "it will take time" to now now now.  And Sam...I have no clue if I'm still supposed to be seeing him as struggling or accepting. 

It's like Dabb suddenly decided it was just Sam's turn.  That is bad writing.  Sam as this forced bond with Gabriel. 

Dabb sucks.

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I didn't say Dean wasn't going to get a mytharc. I'm saying that Sam is also in line for that and why I said maybe this time both have the emotional beats and mytharc things. I hope that makes my comment a little more clear.

I guess we will see.  Because we have had multiple episodes with Sam home and Dean off doing stuff which signals to me an active/mytharc role for Dean and a passive/research/caretaker role for Sam as well as a potential storyline split for the brothers next season. 

We will know soon enough. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean's emotional stuff was to push him into reckless self sacrifice. His tragic flaw is triggered after he suffers the depression and despair over the loss of family and/or loved ones through death/inaccessible realm/or alienation.

 Indeed that is the case. Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not. LOL

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

While WS did impede the season, I dont' think its soley to blame.  Because the episode going in, Dean held a gun to Kaia's head.  He felt guilty and was desperate to save Mary.  But then in Jurassic Park, Dean's like "meh."  Dabb simply had to adjust the writing in those scenes.  I get Sam and Dean had to be the damsels in distress that ep, but they still could have Sam and Dean's characterization consistent. 

When Dean is on a mission he can get reckless so him not noticing they were being followed by mysterious robed girl still could have happened.

Then suddenly Dean's okay with slowing down and Sam has lost faith completely.  Why?   They didnt' have a way to save Mary in the first half but Sam had faith she was alive.  Nothing really changed other then it was confirmed he was right.   I know its said Dean buried his emotions to help Sam, but I didn't see that.  Jensen is usually so good with the subtle stuff to let us know that Dean isn't okay.  Drinking the hard stuff is usally a sign but I think we've seen Dean only drink once from the flask in the premier, otherwise its just beer.  The only time we saw it was excessive was in ep 3 and that was a blink and you'll miss it moment. 

Then suddenly, Dean went from "it will take time" to now now now.  And Sam...I have no clue if I'm still supposed to be seeing him as struggling or accepting. 

It's like Dabb suddenly decided it was just Sam's turn.  That is bad writing.  Sam as this forced bond with Gabriel. 

Dabb sucks.

Dabbler and Hacks Inc.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Indeed that is the case. Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not. LOL

This is my long held opinion.  I guess we agree.

Except... Dean's emotions in this case push him into mythac action. 

I don't think Sam being sensitive to Gabriel and Rowena do because they don't tap into an active impulse.

Sam suffered from a hubric need to prove himself.  His tragic was examinedcand rezokved in seafons 8-11.  

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

LEGIT GUFFAW AND LOL. That is the best thing I've seen all day. I needed this. OMG, this is so great.

LOL thanks. I'm thinking of tweeting it to Dabb later. 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

Last season was so bad that I don't even want to think about it.

Agree so much with this. 

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb sucks.

And with this.

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think we actually know this.  All we know is that Jensen is going to end up playing a character that isn't Dean.  There is no guarantee that this comes as a result of a BDH moment or in a moment of reckless despair like when Dean took on the Mark of Cain.

Given that its Sam who appeals to Gabe, Sam who has the stronger relationship with Jack, Sam who has the destiny with Rowena and Sam whose supposed to go through some harrowing moment, Id say Sam has a bigger story than Dean at this point.  (This isn't meant as B vs J just based on current released spoilers)

To me that would be like saying Dean had the bigger story in the earlier seasons as he was the one who had connections with Castiel, Crowley, Benny, Charlie, Jo, Anna, and Amara.  

 

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

 

In my opinion the problem with Sam starting the Apocalypse was that he never really took responsibility for his actions. The idea that he suffered too seemed to be enough for him.

 

How is taking on Lucifer and sacrificing himself into the pit not taking responsibilities for his actions and mistakes?  

 

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Gotcha. All I am saying is that he is being shifted into this role now.

Yes.  It comes to Dean naturally because he has been doing it since he was 4.

Sam was manipulating Jack and Gabriel as well beca use he wants something from both ...  And Dean too... He did not want Dean to try suicide again!!!!

We have yet to see him care for someone when he expects nothing... Well I guess when he does food runs. 

What did Sam expect out of giving Rowena the book of spells to help her?  What was he trying to get out of Dean by helping him in Advanced Thantology?  What does Sam expect to get from everyone that he saves while hunting things?  Does he stand around and wait for his reward because I haven't seen any of that.  Honestly, if you really want to look at it, you could really say that about any character if you wanted to.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

To me that would be like saying Dean had the bigger story in the earlier seasons as he was the one who had connections with Castiel, Crowley, Benny, Charlie, Jo, Anna, and Amara.  

I think your misunderstanding what Im saying.  I'm simply disagreeing with Castiel's Cat that its a confirmed fact that Dean has the mytharc this season.  I'm saying that what we know will happen is more closely connected to Sam than it is to Dean.

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think your misunderstanding what Im saying.  I'm simply disagreeing with Castiel's Cat that its a confirmed fact that Dean has the mytharc this season.  I'm saying that what we know will happen is more closely connected to Sam than it is to Dean.

What do we know will happen that is more connected to Sam?  

[ILoveReading]

This is why I don't get excited at Dean news with Dabb in charge.*

It seems like they're setting Dean up for another fall by setting him up as suddenly being not a team player and I would put money on whatever happens its just going to be about protecting Sam and making sure Sam lives rather than a hero moment and saving the world. 

*I think Jensen will do a phenomenal job but the storyline will probably just be a repeat of Demon Dean.

I hate Dabb so much.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't get excited at Dean news with Dabb in charge.*

It seems like they're setting Dean up for another fall by setting him up as suddenly being not a team player and I would put money on whatever happens its just going to be about protecting Sam and making sure Sam lives rather than a hero moment and saving the world. 

*I think Jensen will do a phenomenal job but the storyline will probably just be a repeat of Demon Dean.

I hate Dabb so much.

I saw a theory on twitter that maybe Dean knows how Sam dies because of going to Death's Library and that's why he's just pushing this right now and he doesn't care if Sam gets mad at him about this.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't get excited at Dean news with Dabb in charge.*

It seems like they're setting Dean up for another fall by setting him up as suddenly being not a team player and I would put money on whatever happens its just going to be about protecting Sam and making sure Sam lives rather than a hero moment and saving the world. 

*I think Jensen will do a phenomenal job but the storyline will probably just be a repeat of Demon Dean.

I hate Dabb so much.

I refuse to believe this. Not this time. Too much set up. If they want to give Sam Lucifer fine.   Lucifer is a nobody.  He is a sniveling weak coward. And Sam has the history 

Dean is gearing up for a big self-service.  Death factors in somehow. Dean is that important. It is mytharc BDH stuff. Dean goggles locked and loaded 

They are not throwing away 2 years of set-up.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They are not throwing away 2 years of set-up.

Cause that's never happened before.....

[Myrelle]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cause that's never happened before.....

MTE.

[ILoveReading]

From @Myrelle in the spoiler thread

Quote

ITA with everything here-and the bolded parts especially-because Dabb just keeps proving that he's completely ignorant of show canon in numerous areas, but especially with past characterization of the two leads, so yeah, I'm getting more wary with every episode that doesn't mention OWMichael, too.

I think we'll have a better picture after next week when whatever happens to Sam takes place.  In the promo you can clearly see him covered in blood.

My biggest worry is that this is all just another lesson for Dean or its setting him up to fail. 

If Dean says yes to AW Michael in the attempt to try and control him like Sam did with Lucifer, I can see Dabb take a certain amount of satisfaction in letting Dean not be able to succeed and Dean being the reason Michael ends up in our world.  If AW Michael ending up in our world is the cliffhanger no way is resolved in the first couple of episodes, so we get more Dean guilt/Dean learns a lesson.   It gives them the excuse to hand the storyline to Sam later in the season.

Its why I really hope its Cage Michael and AW Michael is taken care of in the finale. 

[Myrelle]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

I think we'll have a better picture after next week when whatever happens to Sam takes place.  In the promo you can clearly see him covered in blood.

My biggest worry is that this is all just another lesson for Dean or its setting him up to fail. 

If Dean says yes to AW Michael in the attempt to try and control him like Sam did with Lucifer, I can see Dabb take a certain amount of satisfaction in letting Dean not be able to succeed and Dean being the reason Michael ends up in our world.  If AW Michael ending up in our world is the cliffhanger no way is resolved in the first couple of episodes, so we get more Dean guilt/Dean learns a lesson.   It gives them the excuse to hand the storyline to Sam later in the season.

Its why I really hope its Cage Michael and AW Michael is taken care of in the finale. 

Ditto to every word.

[Reganne]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Myrelle in the spoiler thread

I think we'll have a better picture after next week when whatever happens to Sam takes place.  In the promo you can clearly see him covered in blood.

My biggest worry is that this is all just another lesson for Dean or its setting him up to fail. 

If Dean says yes to AW Michael in the attempt to try and control him like Sam did with Lucifer, I can see Dabb take a certain amount of satisfaction in letting Dean not be able to succeed and Dean being the reason Michael ends up in our world.  If AW Michael ending up in our world is the cliffhanger no way is resolved in the first couple of episodes, so we get more Dean guilt/Dean learns a lesson.   It gives them the excuse to hand the storyline to Sam later in the season.

Its why I really hope its Cage Michael and AW Michael is taken care of in the finale. 

My biggest worry is that Dean will once again "be forced" to take something on because his little brother Sam is a burden who can't protect himself.  Dean lost his mother when he was 4 because Sam existed.  He lost his childhood because Sam existed.  He left the boys home where he was thriving bc of Sam's existence and he sacrificed himself and went to hell because of Sam.  I love the boys relationship but this schtick is getting old.  I don't want Sam to be presented as a burden anymore in that his mere existence has essentially destroyed Dean's life.  Sam needs to be able to step up on his own.  It's been 13 seasons already and for some reason, this season has been the worst in regards to Sam's hunting skills.  I don't get it.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

My biggest worry is that Dean will once again "be forced" to take something on because his little brother Sam is a burden who can't protect himself.  Dean lost his mother when he was 4 because Sam existed.  He lost his childhood because Sam existed.  He left the boys home where he was thriving bc of Sam's existence and he sacrificed himself and went to hell because of Sam.  I love the boys relationship but this schtick is getting old.  I don't want Sam to be presented as a burden anymore in that his mere existence has essentially destroyed Dean's life.  Sam needs to be able to step up on his own.  It's been 13 seasons already and for some reason, this season has been the worst in regards to Sam's hunting skills.  I don't get it.

Sam's existence didn't drstroyvDeans life. It was the way John brainwashed Dean that destroyed Dean's life.

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's existence didn't drstroyvDeans life. It was the way John brainwashed Dean that destroyed Dean's life.

And that never would have happened if Sam wasn't born.  Yes, it isn't Sam's fault what happened, but the narrative of the series makes it clear that Dean had a happy family life with John and Mary prior to Sam's birth.  The reason why Mary died was because Azazel was there for Sam in the first place.  It's like in Changing Channels with the game show.  The question asked to Dean was "Would your mother and father still be alive if your brother was never born" and of course the correct answer to that was a big fat "YES".

 

And if Dean does end up being this new person because of Sam, it is just another awful thing that transpired for Dean because of Sam once again.  It's getting ridiculous.  It's like, we know it show.  Sam being on this planet makes everything worse for Dean.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, Reganne said:

And that never would have happened if Sam wasn't born.  Yes, it isn't Sam's fault what happened, but the narrative of the series makes it clear that Dean had a happy family life with John and Mary prior to Sam's birth.  The reason why Mary died was because Azazel was there for Sam in the first place.  It's like in Changing Channels with the game show.  The question asked to Dean was "Would your mother and father still be alive if your brother was never born" and of course the correct answer to that was a big fat "YES".

 

And if Dean does end up being this new person because of Sam, it is just another awful thing that transpired for Dean because of Sam once again.  It's getting ridiculous.  It's like, we know it show.  Sam being on this planet makes everything worse for Dean.

Responding in the all episodes thread.

[Castiels Cat]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cause that's never happened before.....

Kripke was a bad writer.  Manners sadly died before season 5.  Manners was why this show was great for a time along  with Jensen who helped create Dean and made him iconic and some very talented writers.

Kripke's original version was a copy of the Night Stalker.  Then Dean was a womanizing sidekick.  Then psikids! Battle Royale! Roadhouse! No roadhouse! There were originally not supposed to be angels.  Then  Angels! Kripke was all over the place.  

He did not seem to realize he made his hero the literal Antichrist until season 5 and then oops...  there is no coming back from the antichrist so they made some random kid the in-store Antichrist (still LMAO) and cut and pasted the rest.  And you know what. Tbey coukd not salvage it. It really fell apart.  

Yeah from the free will aspect and Dean being all about Sammy it makes sense that Dean would never agree to do this.  But they did it all badly 

The thing rhat gets me... they still technicalky had Dean save the day because he make a Chuck tell him where the fight is and Chuck says YOU GOING CUANGES THE STORY. So according to God Dean was the one that changed the ending of the story.  Dean saves the world by being the pitiful human big brother that shows up to get his sorry act kicked.

My point is Kripke changed the story every season.   During Revolution he changed it during the season. Worst writer ever.

Dabb has his faults but Carver trained him to map out his big story arcs and especially his major character arcs. These big arcs run across seasons and they stick to them.

So... I guess we will see. Until then we are all speculating

I will probably need to be hospitalized.

RIP Kim Manners.

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I saw a theory on twitter that maybe Dean knows how Sam dies because of going to Death's Library and that's why he's just pushing this right now and he doesn't care if Sam gets mad at him about this.

AT and the Dean/Death tete a tete was about Dean in my opinion.  It was about the big picture and the fact that somehow, some way Dean needed ro kerp his head in the game and himsrlf alive to be around because he had work to do.

She wasn't giving him Intel about Sam. It was pretty clear in Funeralia she really is not interested in Sam.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/26/2018 at 6:23 PM, Reganne said:

To me that would be like saying Dean had the bigger story in the earlier seasons as he was the one who had connections with Castiel, Crowley, Benny, Charlie, Jo, Anna, and Amara.  

 

How is taking on Lucifer and sacrificing himself into the pit not taking responsibilities for his actions and mistakes?  

 

What did Sam expect out of giving Rowena the book of spells to help her?  What was he trying to get out of Dean by helping him in Advanced Thantology?  What does Sam expect to get from everyone that he saves while hunting things?  Does he stand around and wait for his reward because I haven't seen any of that.  Honestly, if you really want to look at it, you could really say that about any character if you wanted to.

Sam never showed remorse/ grief, devoted himself to hinting, apologized to Dean...

Sam did not behave the way he behaved in season 11 basically.  Sam pushing iLucifer into the pit  was needed.  But thinking hey I suffered so It's all good is really not heroic redemption, especially not when you started the Apocalypse, released the Judeo-Christian devil and many thousands of people died. 

That is bad writing.  It bothered a lot of fans, especially in contrast to Dean who actually felt guilty about people that died during the Apocalypse.  I mean Dean gets an episode that features his guilt in seadon 7 And Sam doesn't?  WTF

Edited April 28, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[belbar]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I will probably need to be hospitalized.

I hope it all will go well for you. Take care of yourself and get well soon.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/26/2018 at 6:23 PM, Reganne said:

To me that would be like saying Dean had the bigger story in the earlier seasons as he was the one who had connections with Castiel, Crowley, Benny, Charlie, Jo, Anna, and Amara.  

 

How is taking on Lucifer and sacrificing himself into the pit not taking responsibilities for his actions and mistakes?  

 

What did Sam expect out of giving Rowena the book of spells to help her?  What was he trying to get out of Dean by helping him in Advanced Thantology?  What does Sam expect to get from everyone that he saves while hunting things?  Does he stand around and wait for his reward because I haven't seen any of that.  Honestly, if you really want to look at it, you could really say that about any character if you wanted to.

I stand corrected.  As I said they have moved him more into a caretaking role post season 11 redemption.

Just now, belbar said:

I hope it all will go well for you. Take care of yourself and get well soon.

I meant my brain will explode if Dean becomes AU Michael.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

I meant my brain will explode if Dean becomes AU Michael.

ROFL! Good to hear. I guess it's time for me to leave the chat. My neurones are in urgent need of a break. LOL

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/26/2018 at 7:51 PM, ILoveReading said:

I think your misunderstanding what Im saying.  I'm simply disagreeing with Castiel's Cat that its a confirmed fact that Dean has the mytharc this season.  I'm saying that what we know will happen is more closely connected to Sam than it is to Dean.

Yeah.  I say he does only through my analysis of the season.  It is all spec. 

Sam killing Lucifer is a B arc and the completion of an ongoing character arc for him which meandered over the years not the A arc.  

Still headshaking over this ... I knew the Rowena/Sam car moment meant  a future Sam/Lucifer something... but Sam seemed so mute and placid all of the times he encountered him the last 2 years. PTSD?

The man who Knew Too Much 2: ptsd.

Dean has the A arc.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Myrelle in the spoiler thread

I think we'll have a better picture after next week when whatever happens to Sam takes place.  In the promo you can clearly see him covered in blood.

My biggest worry is that this is all just another lesson for Dean or its setting him up to fail. 

If Dean says yes to AW Michael in the attempt to try and control him like Sam did with Lucifer, I can see Dabb take a certain amount of satisfaction in letting Dean not be able to succeed and Dean being the reason Michael ends up in our world.  If AW Michael ending up in our world is the cliffhanger no way is resolved in the first couple of episodes, so we get more Dean guilt/Dean learns a lesson.   It gives them the excuse to hand the storyline to Sam later in the season.

Its why I really hope its Cage Michael and AW Michael is taken care of in the finale. 

It is Cage Michael.  I have a weird feeling AU Michael will be wearing JDM since KEVIN bomb. It is a demoralizing psychological warfare dick move.

They are so weird about pacing.  I thought for sure that this AU thing would not have legs.  Not at all sure about that now because apparently Kevin gave Michael the means to cross over and he can do it while our heroes are over there.

3 episode left?  

Next week they crossover.   

Then Sam/Jack/Lucifer get a special episode 

Then they returm to Apocalypse Now and shit happened, shit went down, Rowena is dead  or traumetized, Sam is dead or gravely wounded...

Does not matter.   Circumstances will be such that Dean will manage to make a deal with Michael. For all we know Michael has been in his head all season since his prayer just the way Lucifer spoke to Sam in 11 post prayer.

Dean!Michael will happen.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

36 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is Cage Michael.  I have a weird feeling AU Michael will be wearing JDM since KEVIN bomb. It is a demoralizing psychological warfare dick move.

They are so weird about pacing.  I thought for sure that this AU thing would not have legs.  Not at all sure about that now because apparently Kevin gave Michael the means to cross over and he can do it while our heroes are over there.

3 episode left?  

Next week they crossover.   

Then Sam/Jack/Lucifer get a special episode 

Then they returm to Apocalypse Now and shit happened, shit went down, Rowena is dead  or traumetized, Sam is dead or gravely wounded...

Does not matter.   Circumstances will be such that Dean will manage to make a deal with Michael. For all we know Michael has been in his head all season since his prayer just the way Lucifer spoke to Sam in 11 post prayer.

Dean!Michael will happen.

Why would AU Michael be wearing JDM?  How could that possibly happen?  That would really be destroying canon.

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Why would AU Michael be wearing JDM?  How could that possibly happen?  That would really be destroying canon.

He resurrects the AU version and uses him as his vessel and as a psychological weapon  because he has seen the things that are in Mary's head.  He knows she married him and fathered 2 children with him and that these 2 children stopped the Apocalypse in her world, something she is fiercely proud of.  He knows she knows they will stop at Nothing to come for her and they will try to stop his plans for her world.  He knows that since she escaped with jack he has been losing.  

Using Kevin as a suicide bomber to crush Jack's spirit shows us he understands how to use human emotions against us.  It is the one thing I would do if I were him.

Think about the effect Samifer had on Dean the first time he saw him in the End.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam never showed remorse/ grief, devoted himself to hinting, apologized to Dean...

Sam did not behave the way he behaved in seadon 11 basically.  Sam pushingvKucifer into the was needed.  But thinking hey I suffered so It's all good is really not redemption.  That is bad writing.  It bothered a lot of fans, especially in contrast to Dean who actually felt guilty about peoplethat died during the Apocalypse.  I mean Dean gets an episode that features his guil And Sam doesn't?

"Never" is a pretty definitive word in my opinion... I also don't think it is true in this case.

Sam did apologize to Dean - and did in the show a lot - but also after season 4. He did in season 6, where Sam also had an episode about his remorse - "Unforgiven." He thanked Dean for saving him in "Mannequin 3...," showing how much he appreciated Dean, and stated that what they did made a difference and so that's why they keep doing it (That sure sounds like dedicating his life to hunting to me), and he dedicated his life to helping Dean further in "The Man Who Knew Too Much," sacrificing a lot to do so. Just because you don't happen to like that episode or season 7 doesn't mean that what happened in them doesn't exist or have an impact on the story.

As for remorse, Sam stated outright that Dean wasn't going to punish Sam any more than he was already punishing himself in early season 5. He also said that if he could do it all over, he would take it all back. To me, that's remorse...

So so what if Sam thought he suffered enough during season 7? He went to hell with Lucifer to be tortured for over 180 years to fix his mistakes... would Sam still carrying around guilt and moping around because of his mistakes somehow help the world any more than him dedicating himself to hunting did? I just don't get it. I'm sorry, but not every character has to feel guilty about everything in the world all the time, especially if it isn't going to help anything. At some point I think it's okay to say "okay, this is enough. Me wallowing isn't going to fix anything. I can forgive myself and move on and do something productive, or I can sit here and feel guilty." In my opinion, that doesn't make him the antichrist, and it surely didn't warrant - in my opinion - the trashing of his character, so he could relearn that lesson again in a more humble and deferential way so as to please a showrunner who didn't bother to have his other main character confront and fix his own character flaws. As you pointed out in an earlier post Dean's pattern of sacrificing himself recklessly spans numerous seasons - so why didn't Carver have Dean confront his character flaws, but instead make them almost a good thing?

It's not like Sam's supposed "redemption" has helped his character any. He's not hunting well this season. He's not really saving anyone, and now he maybe wants to go on a revenge quest? How is this better than Sam in season 7 who hunted and saved people even though he had Lucifer visions and considered himself lucky for only having those visions, because things could have been worse. Season 7 Sam sounds a whole lot more humble and dedicated to saving people to me. Your miles obviously vary.

So you can keep saying season 8-11 redeemed Sam from being the antichrist, but that isn't going to make me believe it. Just as what I say here isn't going to change your mind.

[Casseiopeia]

25 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He resurrects the AU version and uses him as his vessel and as a psychological weapon  because he has seen the things that are in Mary's head.  He knows she married him and fathered 2 children with him and that these 2 children stopped the Apocalypse in her world, something she is fiercely proud of.  He knows she knows they will stop at Nothing to come for her and they will try to stop his plans for her world.  He knows that since she escaped with jack he has been losing.  

Using Kevin as a suicide bomber to crush Jack's spirit shows us he understands how to use human emotions against us.  It is the one thing I would do if I were him.

Think about the effect Samifer had on Dean the first time he saw him in the End.

 

Do you really think the JDM would come back to the show to portray a vessel to a psychotic archangel in order to torture his sons?  Doesn't the John character already have enough baggage with how he raised Sam and Dean (especially Dean) to add that to his shitty Father of the Year award?  And why would AU John say yes to an AU Michael bent on anhaliating all humans in two different universes anyway?

 

Yes Samifer drove Dean to do the right thing and choose his family over the angels silly destiny.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Castiels Cat]

34 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Do you really think the JDM would come back to the show to portray a vessel to a psychotic archangel in order to torture his sons?  Doesn't John already have enough baggage with how he raised Sam and Dean (especially Dean) to add that to his shitty Father of the Year award?  And why would AU John say yes to an AU Michael bent on anhaliating all humans in two different universes anyway?

 

Yes Samifer drove Dean to do the right thing and choose his family over the angels silly destiny.

 

AU John is not our John.  AU Michael could lobotomoze him, render him catatonic, trick him the way Lucifer tricks his vessels.  Hell if i know.

Using Kevin as a bomb shows us that AU Michael is willing to use psychological warfare to crush his enemies. AZAZEL did it and nearly bested them.

It is just a weird idea I had. No set-up other than AU Michael is capable of it.

43 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"Never" is a pretty definitive word in my opinion... I also don't think it is true in this case.

Sam did apologize to Dean - and did in the show a lot - but also after season 4. He did in season 6, where Sam also had an episode about his remorse - "Unforgiven." He thanked Dean for saving him in "Mannequin 3...," showing how much he appreciated Dean, and stated that what they did made a difference and so that's why they keep doing it (That sure sounds like dedicating his life to hunting to me), and he dedicated his life to helping Dean further in "The Man Who Knew Too Much," sacrificing a lot to do so. Just because you don't happen to like that episode or season 7 doesn't mean that what happened in them doesn't exist or have an impact on the story.

As for remorse, Sam stated outright that Dean wasn't going to punish Sam any more than he was already punishing himself in early season 5. He also said that if he could do it all over, he would take it all back. To me, that's remorse...

So so what if Sam thought he suffered enough during season 7? He went to hell with Lucifer to be tortured for over 180 years to fix his mistakes... would Sam still carrying around guilt and moping around because of his mistakes somehow help the world any more than him dedicating himself to hunting did? I just don't get it. I'm sorry, but not every character has to feel guilty about everything in the world all the time, especially if it isn't going to help anything. At some point I think it's okay to say "okay, this is enough. Me wallowing isn't going to fix anything. I can forgive myself and move on and do something productive, or I can sit here and feel guilty." In my opinion, that doesn't make him the antichrist, and it surely didn't warrant - in my opinion - the trashing of his character, so he could relearn that lesson again in a more humble and deferential way so as to please a showrunner who didn't bother to have his other main character confront and fix his own character flaws. As you pointed out in an earlier post Dean's pattern of sacrificing himself recklessly spans numerous seasons - so why didn't Carver have Dean confront his character flaws, but instead make them almost a good thing?

It's not like Sam's supposed "redemption" has helped his character any. He's not hunting well this season. He's not really saving anyone, and now he maybe wants to go on a revenge quest? How is this better than Sam in season 7 who hunted and saved people even though he had Lucifer visions and considered himself lucky for only having those visions, because things could have been worse. Season 7 Sam sounds a whole lot more humble and dedicated to saving people to me. Your miles obviously vary.

So you can keep saying season 8-11 redeemed Sam from being the antichrist, but that isn't going to make me believe it. Just as what I say here isn't going to change your mind.

Yep.  Correct on that point. We do not agree. I am coming from it having read a lot of classics.  Kripke obviously did not.

Carver did however, and he did redeem the character in my eyes because he had him go through all of the steps of a classic heroic tragic fall and redemption arc in the correct order and without any supernatural whitewashing to explain away his mistakes.  Bravo in my opinion.  Other fans think far too little to late. They hate Sam.

Sam would apologize sometimes and repeat the sane behavior. Having him chose to trust in Dean in 11 was a pivotal moment because every misstep has been when he mistrusted Dean or did things behind Dean's back.

Unforgiven was in regards to Soulless Sam not in regards to forsakiing Dean in favor of some hubric need to be bigger, better and stronger than his big brother, which was the play Ruby used to lure him in, all the while banging the denoness that suggested virgin sacrifice and smiled whilst his brother was dragged off to Hell.

And i never saw him apologize to Jody who lost her entire family in the most awful manner during the Apocalypse. 

Yet somehow Dean feels guilty about Hendricks and Jo whereas in the same episode Sam shrugs his shoulders because he feels he has paid his price. )_(

Even the lamest comic book hero woukd never feel he had paid his price in those circumstances. Kripke and Gamble did a huge disservice to the character.  At some point Seasons 6-7 should have shown Sam trying to come to terms with the horror of what he had done and committing to hunting.  Instead Sam never committed to hunting until season 10 well into Carver's arc.  He did it and whined alot.

There is a reason a lot of fans did not find the character very sympathetic post season 5.  The fault lay in the writing in my opinion.  

So Carver had to do it all again.  Bravo. It worked.   I am sure it sucked if you were a big Sam fan because he acted like a jerk and went dark and broke the world again all without the excuse of demon blood or Ruby or grand schemes. And he was far far worse than demon Dean.  But at least he manned up and went through every damn step of a redemption arc and we saw rhe origin of his hubric need to prove himself and be bigger and better and stronger than his big brother in just my imagination and of course the fault lies in John's parenting and the fact that he protected Sam by excluding him which Dean does too a bit sometimes.

For me the situation has changed....dramatically changed thankfully. For others it was far too little too late.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Instead Sam never committed to hunting until season 10 well into Carver's arc.  He did it and whined alot.

My response taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread.

[Reganne]

9 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

  At some point Seasons 6-7 should have shown Sam trying to come to terms with the horror of what he had done and committing to hunting.  Instead Sam never committed to hunting until season 10 well into Carver's arc.  He did it and whined alot.

 

I think this is where we disagree.  I don't think Sam should have to commit to hunting in order to receive redemption.  If he doesn't want to hunt, he shouldn't have to.  It's his life and his choices.  Why should he have to commit to hunting?  Because Dean wants him to?  He has even said that he wouldn't want to hunt without Dean.  To me, that's not a redemption.  His redemption was sacrificing himself to end the apocalypse at the end of season 5 for setting Lucifer free.

 

As far as this season, Sam's hunting skills are lacking, so TBH I wouldn't want a hunter that is simply just getting knocked out or like in the last episode choked by a demi god while Gabriel and Dean do all the work.  At this point, it would almost be better for Sam to just retire as he is more of a liability in the field.  Maybe he should be regulated to research only at this point since the writers have made his hunting skills damn near disastrous.  If the writers are going to make a character a constant damsel in distress, why should that character be hunting at all?  It doesn't make sense.  Now we get to watch Sam get the crap kicked out of him in one of the next episodes, which may or may not cause a hunter (Dean) to become another character.  Thus Sam is once again delegated to a liability on this show.  I think if Sam's redemption was that he had to commit to hunting, I think he should at least have gotten better at it.  Not have the character 13 seasons in become the one that other people have to save all the time.