A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[angelwoody]

After re-watching season 3, I have come to the conclusion that Zelena is my least favorite villain.  

 

She was such a pitiful loser and even though she was the most powerful person ever (until she conveniently wasn't) she didn't manage to really do any serious or lasting damage.  She just blabbered on and on and on about her poor, sad, life and then muah-ha-ha-ha'd and chewed scenery throughout the story line.  

 

In addition, I hated her Storybrook clothes.  Petty perhaps, (and I'm sure they were meant to reference Almira Gulch) but all that tweed and those unfortunate mid-calf hemlines?  Yuck.  She was annoying, prone to lame monologues, over-acted, dressed badly and in the end, ineffective in her villainy.     

[Shanna Marie]

How long was the Cora arc? Did it end up equalling about a half season or a little more?

Cora spanned much of season 2, but the season wasn't really about her. While I hated a lot of the way her arc was handled, especially in regards to Regina being turned into the biggest victim ever, I did like the way the structure worked. She was an ongoing antagonist throughout the season, but she wasn't in every episode. In the first half of the season, she was trying to use Team Princess as a way to get to Storybrooke, but Team Princess was focusing more on getting home than on defeating Cora. They just had to fight Cora (and Hook) to find a way to get home. Still, there were episodes where she wasn't around and they were up against other enemies. Then the first part of the second half of the season was Cora in Storybrooke. The real problem there was that she wasn't around all that long before she was killed, and then they moved on to that bizarre Home Office plot that they used to set up the Neverland arc.

 

So, in theory, I like the idea of having an antagonist who can span the whole season rather than such self-contained arcs, and having some one-off or standalone episodes where that antagonist isn't a factor. But they can barely sustain a half-season arc these days without losing control over it or forgetting what they've set up. I'm not sure I'd trust them with a longer storyline with more moving parts.

[HoodlumSheep]

This. Zelena's father was a dink, but her mother seemed to be loving. And I would have loved it if being on the receiving end of an irrational vendetta had led to a massive dose of self-awareness on Regina's part about how she's treated Snow, but alas.

Alas, indeed. Show more horrible father scenes, show her struggling to get by. Show more of Glinda and the others favoring Dorothy over her to make her feel insecure.

It could have been a really awesome arc for regina. Wicked vs Evil could have had some great parallels, along with emma/zelena parallels.

Now for the snow situation: I can live with all the Cora flashback nonsense in bleeding through. It was snow and regina's heart to heart (no heart? Can't remember) that bugged me the most. Snow apologizes for killing cora and you can tell by regina's face that she will always resent Snow a little for it (that's acceptable enough), but then she mentions how Cora killed Snow's mama and that "it's complicated." My problem wih that conversation is what about snow's papa? Did the fact that she was responsible for his death even cross her mind? I was honestly waiting for her to mention it.

[Mari]

Alas, indeed. Show more horrible father scenes, show her struggling to get by. Show more of Glinda and the others favoring Dorothy over her to make her feel insecure.

It could have been a really awesome arc for regina.

...

Did the fact that she was responsible for his death even cross her mind? I was honestly waiting for her to mention it.

That's just it, though.  The way they played the one "Zelena has a bad father" scene, Zelena was absolutely shocked.  If she were afraid of him before, or had had bad experiences with him before,  it surely didn't show.  People who grow up with an abusive parent are usually really focused on that parent's tells--and are not completely floored when that parent acts out.  They expect it;  that's what the abusive parent does.

 

Zelena's father might not've liked or loved her, but he did a reasonably decent impression of being neutral, at least when Zelena's mom was alive--and we never saw any proof that Zelena's mom did anything but adore her.

 

It was like the show wanted us to think of her as completely irrational, without recognizing that they've frequently made Regina almost as bad, and completely without giving Regina any self-awareness about her own past.

 

As for Regina and apologizing?  She's apologized to Henry, and fairly insincerely to Belle when Belle demanded it before she would help Regina with the Zelena thing.  So far, Regina doesn't seem to recognize that other people are people who occasionally deserve apologies, too, and seems to feel justified in everything she's done.

[Joanh23]

well what I hated in Bleeding Through was the the way they portrayed Eva telling Leopold that Cora was pregnant with another mans child as an evil action.  What Cora tried to do was pretty bad, so I don't really have too much sympathy for her, but Eva basically did the right thing and she's being lambasted for it by her own daughter.  

[angelwoody]

well what I hated in Bleeding Through was the the way they portrayed Eva telling Leopold that Cora was pregnant with another mans child as an evil action.  What Cora tried to do was pretty bad, so I don't really have too much sympathy for her, but Eva basically did the right thing and she's being lambasted for it by her own daughter.  

Yes, there is a lot of questionable morality offered up on this show but that was a particular head-scratcher.  Telling the truth, letting someone know who and what they were getting into, saving a man from being tricked into thinking a baby was his, saving a kingdom from having a fraudulent heir to the crown foisted upon them...  That horrible, evil person!!

[stealinghome]

So, in theory, I like the idea of having an antagonist who can span the whole season rather than such self-contained arcs, and having some one-off or standalone episodes where that antagonist isn't a factor. But they can barely sustain a half-season arc these days without losing control over it or forgetting what they've set up. I'm not sure I'd trust them with a longer storyline with more moving parts.

But on the flip side, part of the problem the show had in 3B (less so in 3A) was trying to cram really a season's worth of PLOT! into 11 episodes. Having a Big Bad who spanned both half-seasons might help with that. I don't know--like you, I'm very torn. One overarching Big Bad could help the show, but only if the writers are willing to invest time and thought into that character, which is a seriously questionable proposition.

[KAOS Agent]

I would be less conflicted on a full season villain if they would actually have the guts to use that villain to truly go after the other characters instead of having them wander around chewing the scenery and muhahahaha-ing all over the place. The conflicts aren't all that dire, which makes me think that a full season of one villain would be so incredibly boring. The first few episodes of a new villain are usually slightly entertaining, so with split season villains, I'm generally assured of 4-5 episodes a season that won't completely irritate me.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I would be less conflicted on a full season villain if they would actually have the guts to use that villain to truly go after the other characters instead of having them wander around chewing the scenery and muhahahaha-ing all over the place.

All I can say is... Cora. Ain't nobody got time for monologuing.

[HoodlumSheep]

All I can say is... Cora. Ain't nobody got time for monologuing.

Is it bad that I'm still waiting for Cora to make her glorious return to Once?

This next part probably belongs in the wishes section, forgive me, but while we're talking about Cora...

like, maybe when regina put cora's heart back in her body, it wasn't really cora's body? It was just some random person she disguised as herself and controlled him or her much like she did with her zombie army? So she had fake cora tell regina that she would have been enough just to screw with her.

In the mean time she had secretly offed shady blue and decided to wear her skin? And so when Peter Pan makes his awesome return and then meets his demise by the hands of not!blue (who is believed to have finally decided to use her magic to help), everyone begins to cheer until.....Cora'd!!!!!!! No more once; cora wins.

That's my secret dream for this show.

No, but really, i think Jafar from Wonderland sort of fits the description. He wasn't afraid to get dirty when he had to. I can't recall much evil monologuing, but it's been so long.

Zelena was definitely a "bark but no bite" villain, which is a shame. She could have offed some secondary characters so then we couldn't complain about them not being utilized. Instead she just knocks them out. They could have even had one of the regulars get turned into a monkey, but they missed the chance.

[Camera One]

She could have offed some secondary characters so then we couldn't complain about them not being utilized. Instead she just knocks them out. They could have even had one of the regulars get turned into a monkey, but they missed the chance.

 

I really dislike it when shows use secondary characters as cannon fodder.  I'm glad this show doesn't do it that often, since almost every show does it, and I'm the type of viewer who sometimes enjoys secondary characters more than the primary ones, and really value the community rather than just the main players.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is it bad that I'm still waiting for Cora to make her glorious return to Once?

I miss her, wish she didn't die so quickly, but I know if she was resurrected the showrunners would ruin her. We had the whole seance episode with the flashback, which tainted her to oblivion. Then we had Zelena, who was the perfect candidate to be Cora 2.0, but failed miserably. Resurrecting dead characters should really never happen, imo... unless of course they never actually died. (Zelena and Pan, I'm looking at you. No body, no death.)

 

 

I really dislike it when shows use secondary characters as cannon fodder.

They did this way too much in S2. Cora killed Lancelot and Johanna and kidnapped Jiminy, King George killed Gus, Regina's knights killed Quinn, Red killed Anita, and Tamara killed August. Murder was a convenient way to tell a short story without explaining a thought-out reason why the characters never turn up again.

 

I wish Zelena had actually murdered Neal. As much as I disliked him, his send-off was too shallow for my taste. The fact Zelena didn't kill anyone (Pan too) weakens her standing as a notable adversary.

Edited October 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

I really dislike it when shows use secondary characters as cannon fodder. I'm glad this show doesn't do it that often, since almost every show does it, and I'm the type of viewer who sometimes enjoys secondary characters more than the primary ones, and really value the community rather than just the main players.

I like the secondary characters too, it's just that i'm upset with how they are being used lately. We don't get to see most of them that often anymore, and if they appear it's only for a quick line or two unlike in season one. It's almost like what's the point of having them (which is an upsetting thought)? And if zelena offed at least one of them (maybe a minor secondary character?) then she would have appeared as a greater threat. I felt like she needed to do something (anything!) instead of just knocking people out and having lots of evil monologues.

So i guess, i'll retract my statement of offing some of the secondaries. Instead they could have all been turned into monkeys.

I wish more of the relevant secondary characters would have been turned into monkeys though. Instead we got little john, whom we didn't know much about at all, one or two of the dwarves who barely get a line, and philip/aurora. They should have had Grumpy, Granny, Archie or one of he characters we've grown attached to get monkeyfied. Then it would have upped the danger level.

[Camera One]

Even with the Monkeys thing, there was so much potential which was ignored.  The way the writers wrote it, it seemed like Snow couldn't care less when Aurora and Philip were turned into Monkeys, and Charming, Emma, etc. had no qualms trying to run them through with swords or shooting at them with bullets.  I mean, these are supposed to be their friends!  This should have been a chance for the "heroes" to be angry and hurt by what Zelena was doing, and they should have been torn by the morality of attacking these Monkeys who were actually slaves and could have been someone they knew.  And for those Monkey-fied, there should have been some sort of adjustment, but nope, Little John and Aurora didn't even get lines about the trauma they must have gone through to lose all control of their bodies.  It was similar to the total non-reaction of everyone when Blue "died".  I mean, these characters are supposed to be heroes who care deeply about strangers, but they are so cold when stuff happens to their friends?  

 

I think Zelena would have sucked even if she had killed left right and centre and murdered Neal.  The problem with her and the entire arc was so much deeper than how non-menacing she was.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

Something I'm confused about: in the most recent episode emma talks about how all the guys in her previous relationships are dead, including walsh. So does that mean walsh died when he hit the pavement and went poof in New York? I don't think we saw him as a monkey again after that. In that case, when the gang were attacking the monkeys at the docks and the monkeys went poof after being shot at, etc. does that mean they died too? If that's how it went, then they killed innocent randoms?

Does anyone remember anything about the monkey business?

Edited October 18, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[KAOS Agent]

Given that Jessy Schram and Sarah Bolger were both at the premiere party, I'm hoping that's a sign that we may see both of them back this season. I think Ana was supposedly Cinderella's sister, so it might make sense for her to show up again now that Will is part of the story and Ana's MIA.

 

Also, I don't think Emma knew about the Aurora/Phillip monkey thing and she'd been attacked by her would be fiance and knew it was a kill or be killed situation, so she kind of gets a pass from me on the monkey killing thing. Plus, they were trying to kill Henry. Anyone who tries to kill Henry, cursed or not, is going down.

[stealinghome]

Adam said on twitter that supposedly none of the humans-turned-into-monkeys died. (Riiiiiiight, Adam.) I'm fanwanking that when Zelena was defeated, Walsh just got transported back to Kansas.

 

Given that Jessy Schram and Sarah Bolger were both at the premiere party, I'm hoping that's a sign that we may see both of them back this season. I think Ana was supposedly Cinderella's sister, so it might make sense for her to show up again now that Will is part of the story and Ana's MIA.

fwiw,

it's been confirmed that Sarah Bolger will appear in 4A--I think episode 7 is her first?--as well as in 4B. And while nothing has been said about Schram/Cinderella, supposedly she was spotted a few weeks ago in Vancouver. If she is coming back, I just hope her acting has improved from S1.

Edited October 18, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

We never got confirmation on Walsh.  We did indeed never saw him again.  Since Emma said he died, I guess the writers have decided he died?  It was ridiculous they never had Emma reacting to Walsh's betrayal at all, and there was no need for a rebound time?  It was similar to Neal and Tamara.  I guess if someone betrays you, you just completely lose any feelings you had for them and never look back.

 

They glossed over the Monkey business and just said everyone turned back, so I guess the ones who went "poof" didn't actually die.  Who knows since the writers clearly didn't think it was very important and probably didn't think it through.

 

Also, I don't think Emma knew about the Aurora/Phillip monkey thing and she'd been attacked by her would be fiance and knew it was a kill or be killed situation, so she kind of gets a pass from me on the monkey killing thing.

 

She knew one of the dwarves had turned into a Monkey and so did Little John.  I don't really blame her; I blame the writers.  I get why she shot at them with the kill or be killed, but the writers never bothered to show anyone being torn about it.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

It was ridiculous they never had Emma reacting to Walsh's betrayal at all, and there was no need for a rebound time?  It was similar to Neal and Tamara.  I guess if someone betrays you, you just completely lose any feelings you had for them and never look back.

 

The way Emma reacted to Walsh's proposal, it didn't seem like she was all that in love with the guy. I know she said she was, but there were false memories involved, she was willing to dump him rather than drag him into her crazy life and it seemed more like she was going along with the idea because she wanted a father for Henry and Walsh was "okay" to him. Emma's always been really capable of shutting off emotion, so her lack of reaction isn't all that strange to me.

 

Neal, on the other hand, should have shown some kind of betrayal rather than an immediate attempt to get back with Emma. He'd chosen Tamara over Emma right from the start, claimed he needed her and I assume was the one who proposed to her, so he was all in on Tamara. Her attempts to kill him should have provoked more of a reaction than the nothing we got from him. Did he even know she died? 

[Camera One]

I'm just sad we won't be getting that long-awaited flashback about Tamara and her grandmother.

[Rumsy4]

He knew she'd died, because Rumple told them that he got the magic-neutralizing bracelet off her body, IIRC, but they never showed Neal reacting to that. He didn't know that his father had murdered her. Not that it would have mattered to him--he never confronted his father about his murder of his own mother. He probably thought they both deserved it.

[Serena]

Am I the only one who thought Emma DID react to Walsh's betrayal? She was talking about it to Hook in 314, which for this show, is saying a lot.

[YaddaYadda]

 Am I the only one who thought Emma DID react to Walsh's betrayal? She was talking about it to Hook in 314, which for this show, is saying a lot.

 

She did have a reaction to it but like everything else on the show it has not been fleshed out.  I always got the impression that Emma liked the idea of what Walsh was offering as in he was giving her a home which is something she was sorely lacking.  I've always wondered about that scene though, much as I love Hook, I always felt it was more about him than about her. 

 

But hey, glad we finally know that Walsh is actually dead, dead, dead!

[HoodlumSheep]

Am I the only one who thought Emma DID react to Walsh's betrayal? She was talking about it to Hook in 314, which for this show, is saying a lot.

She did in that one scene. That was good enough for me though (at least concerning walsh), mainly because I didn't think she was as attached to him as she wanted to believe. She seemed fond of him at best, and accepting his proposal would have been a "safe" choice.

Looks like Yadda beat me to a response! I agree with her/him.

Edited October 18, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[ShadowFacts]

In my mind, something that tempered Emma's response to Walsh is the betrayal, and how her powers didn't detect the deception.  She was duped, it was all a sham, and she doesn't want to dwell on it, at least not so anybody else sees it. 

[Mari]

Not that it would have mattered to him--he never confronted his father about his murder of his own mother. He probably thought they both deserved it.

That's actually one thing about Neal that doesn't bother me a whole lot.  She was pretty little when he left, and the few Milah scenes we were shown leaves the possibility that she hadn't been a particularly active mother for at least a short while before she left.

 

She didn't deserve to die the way she did, but it's hard for me to blame Neal for not raking Rumple over the coals for it when he wasn't sure how she died, and she wasn't necessarily a fully real person to him.  Plus, by the time he saw Rumple again, he'd had a really long time to move past that, and Rumple may not have actually been the version of the father he loved a great deal, but Rumple at least looked that way, and had made an effort to become that again (in Neal's eyes, if not in reality.) 

 

I can understand why Baelfire was angry at Hook--he was a teenager who'd been taught Hook was at fault for why he didn't have a mother. The loss was much more recent at that time, and he was faced with the person he'd thought since he was little was the reason.

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't like Walsh's concept because his role was so misused. He dated Emma for eight months, proposed to her, then proceeded to die in the same episode. He was only put in there for the plot. The writers needed to give Emma a good reason to get the heck out of New York. Their relationship had to be pretty involved for him to be coming over often and being for them to be together for so long. The writing wouldn't be able to deal with the fallout effectively even if it wanted to. I find killing every one of Emma's boyfriends to be just convenient and somewhat cruel.

 

I would have loved for Walsh to come back later to bring some conclusion to their relationship. Emma would feel a lot better knowing she was dating a semi-good guy. The drama from his return would have been kind of epic, imo.

Edited October 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

I think i was genuinely happy when walsh was revealed to be the wizard. Was he misused? Yes. It was a small twist that i wasn't really expecting. Wish we could have seen more him as the wizard.

[Camera One]

There was so much more they could have done with him as the Wizard.  And with Oz, which had a rich mythology underlying that entire book series.  But all A&E cared about was Zelena and her family ties with Regina and Corrupt Cora so all the beloved characters from Oz from the Wizard, to Glinda to Dorothy were pretty much thrown under a truck.  The same story could have been told if Zelena wasn't the Wicked Witch.  Her whole backstory could have taken place in the Enchanted Forest.  

Edited October 18, 2014 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

There was so much more they could have done with him as the Wizard. And with Oz, which had a rich mythology underlying that entire book series.

I wish we could have seen just a little more of Oz. And I'll admit I was happy they made the decision that the main cast would never physically visit oz.

I think the writer's had some good ideas, it's just their execution tends to fail.

I thought the time travel ingredients were a neat homage to the 4 main book characters. And I liked how it paralleled with what the 4 witches represented. But we hardly got to see them, and Glinda was made out to BlueFairy-lite.

One of the problems though, was that zelena was way overpowered and it made it seem like conjuring time travel spells was a piece of cake.

Was time-travel magic forbidden, or was it against the laws of magic? Maybe I should quickly refresh myself on 3b shenanigans.

And second, was it ever shown how Zelena learned that time travel was possible or what needed to be done?

What was everyone's opinions on who fit what Oz character? I wasn't around here during 3b discussion. I'm still flabbergasted on how Regina=the tin man/heart.

[jhlipton]

Once again, these guys worked on "Lost" where turning the series on its head was a normal thing.

Yes, but rarely in a good way. The second group of castaways was a complete and total waste. Then there was Season 3a and I was out.

 

Then there's Henry's family tree, which always surprises me. His grandma from Regina's side was engaged to his great grandpa from Emma's side, and his grandma on Neal's side is now dating his mom. The more you think about it, the creepier it gets.

For a true family tree, his step-mother;s mother (rather than his grandma) was the one who engaged to his great grandpa. As far as “his grandma on Neal's side [that would be Milah] is now dating his mom [Emma]”, I’m not sure what you mean. Hook is dating his mom, but Hook is only related to Henry by being with his mother and his step-grandmother. The guy dating his step-mom [Robin] isn’t related to Henry at all (yet).

Let’s not forget that Henry’s grandpa murdered his mother and his father’s fiancé. Dayum….

 

Writers can take their liberties, but viewers get a bit thrown when certain things aren't consistent... like villain comeuppance

Like Johanna!  (I’ll see myself out…)

 

This. There is a stark difference between killing someone to save others and "murder". Saying heroes don't kill is idiotic because if that's true, they'll let evildoers live another day, thereby giving them another opportunity to kill other people. That's just as immoral. Cricket Game is a concrete example.

See also Batman vs Joker, especially in The Killing Joke.

 

I have never read Peter Pan and I am a fan of Once's Hook, so I can't support or refute your statements. But I just wanted to say that I found your post a fantastic read. Well written literary analysis, well argued points, all laced with humor... Your post is a shining example of why I love discussing Once here (and before that on TWoP). You have made me want to go out, buy a copy of Peter Pan and read it - just so I can then figure out if I agree with you or not! :-)

Ditto!

 

From the Robin Hood thread:

And that's not even getting into all the things in Storybrooke Regina has done, like killing Graham or poisoning Henry while meaning to poison Emma or trying to kill the Charmings for half a season.

She killed a number of people in Storybrooke (at least 2) yet when someone kills her more-murderous mother in an act of self-defense, Woegina is the one that’s wronged. Ugh…. I detested that storyline of Snow’s heart turning black. Just no.

 

[T]hey need to massively tone down the snark.

 

I don’t mind the snark, or even rudeness, as long as they stop with the awful Woegina crap.

[KingOfHearts]

 

For a true family tree, his step-mother;s mother (rather than his grandma) was the one who engaged to his great grandpa. As far as “his grandma on Neal's side [that would be Milah] is now dating his mom [Emma]”, I’m not sure what you mean. Hook is dating his mom, but Hook is only related to Henry by being with his mother and his step-grandmother. The guy dating his step-mom [Robin] isn’t related to Henry at all (yet).

I meant the man who dated Henry's grandmother is now dating his mother. That was a serious typo.

Edited October 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

What was everyone's opinions on who fit what Oz character? I wasn't around here during 3b discussion. I'm still flabbergasted on how Regina=the tin man/heart.

Yeah, perhaps the most laughable thing in a half-season chock full of laughable things was the proclamation that Regina has a "resilient heart." I literally cannot think of anyone on this show who has a less resilient heart. (And if Regina "feels things with her soul" [ohmygod, that sounds like bad fanfiction], doesn't that mean her heart doesn't really do the work anyway?) The most resilient-hearted person on this show is either Emma or Snow. I would probably give Snow the edge there, but it's one of those two for sure.

 

Charming as courage and Rumpel as brains works for me, though.

 

I don’t mind the snark, or even rudeness, as long as they stop with the awful Woegina crap.

I just find a lot of Regina's snark/humor to be forced these days, like the writers are trying way too hard to make her bitchy-funny. Her "take yourself for a walk" to Ruby or "Blackened sole is on the menu" to Snow in S2 were funny. "Where you're from, people use pine cones for money" wasn't funny, it was just dumb. I feel like telling the writers that there's no quota for zingers--Regina doesn't have to have 3 one-liners per episode or it's a loss. Don't force her kind of humor into scenes, let it happen naturally.

Edited October 18, 2014 by stealinghome

[YaddaYadda]

The most resilient-hearted person on this show is either Emma or Snow. I would probably give Snow the edge there, but it's one of those two for sure.

 

Emma's heart can't be taken and Snow has half a heart for convenience sake.  You know can't use half a heart for a time travel curse!

[HoodlumSheep]

Hook could have been a possibility for the tin man/heart, but then who would have been Emma's Toto?

[Camera One]

Henry is always Toto.  I can totally see him running off right before the hot air balloon is ready to leave.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

I could see season 1 henry being Toto, but season 3 Henry? Meh. It's a stretch for me.

[kili]

Let’s not forget that Henry’s grandpa murdered his mother and his father’s fiancé. Dayum….

 

Henry's grandpa also murdered Henry's great grandpa (totally deserved) while the Mom that raised him killed her own father, tried to kill her own mother, arranged the death of one of Henry's other great-grandfathers and his adopted grandmother killed his great-grandmother.  His birth grandmother killed his adopted grand-mother and his adopted mother tried repeatedly to kill his birth mother and birth grandmother. His adopted Aunt was complicit in his father's death.  A man both his mothers had romantic relationships with was murdered by his adopted Mom. His grandpa and his birth Mom's current boyfriend tried to kill each other. His grandpa tried to kill his adopted mother's current boyfriend. His adopted mother killed her own boyfriend's wife (Henry's potential step-brother's Mom) in another timeline. Henry's adopted Aunt tried to kill his adopted Mom. Henry's Grandpa also tried to kill his adopted Mom and he was almost killed by Henry's adopted grandmother. His adopted Aunt was killed by his grandpa. His adopted Aunt sent a henchman that appeared to try to kill Emma. His own great-grandfather tried to kill him.

 

That is one messed up family.

[Camera One]

But at the end of the day, they all hold hands,  sing Kumbaya and use selective memory to make it all peachy.

[orza]

All that stuff is pretty tame compared to the original source material. Fairy tales are gruesome, full of killing and maiming and then quickly forgiving and forgetting

This show is a fairy tale so it's pretty much expected.

[Shanna Marie]

I would have loved for Walsh to come back later to bring some conclusion to their relationship. Emma would feel a lot better knowing she was dating a semi-good guy.

Was he semi-good, though? When Glinda found out what Zelena did to him, her attitude was like "Thanks for taking care of that for us," and while Glinda was an idiot, her problem was that she was too trusting, so if she thought it was okay to turn him into a flying monkey, then he must really have been bad. Then Walsh presumably had some kind of free will in human form and was in a world without magic, away from Zelena for most of those eight months, and yet he was complicit in duping Emma and didn't seem to feel the least bit of guilt or mixed feelings about it. He didn't even attempt to do the "it may have started as an assignment, but I came to have real feelings for you" thing. He went straight into evil mode when he figured out that she had her memories back.

 

Actually, I think the memory issue is part of why Emma got over him so quickly. She was essentially a different person when she was dating him. I'm not sure "real" Emma who knows who she is and who has had all those Storybrooke, Enchanted Forest and Neverland experiences would have been at all into him. She described the fake memories and the life built on them as a kind of dream, so that relationship may not have felt real to her once she went back to Storybrooke. Thinking that he died (I'm not sure she'd have any way of knowing, one way or another, if he did die or just poofed away) might have stuck with her to add to her doomed boyfriend fears, but the relationship may have felt like it happened to someone else.

 

I just find a lot of Regina's snark/humor to be forced these days, like the writers are trying way too hard to make her bitchy-funny.

I think she went way over the line when she was making snide remarks about Snow's about-to-go-into-labor body. That wasn't even funny. It was cringeworthy.

[Camera One]

Was he semi-good, though? When Glinda found out what Zelena did to him, her attitude was like "Thanks for taking care of that for us," and while Glinda was an idiot, her problem was that she was too trusting, so if she thought it was okay to turn him into a flying monkey, then he must really have been bad. 

I thought that was just ridiculously out-of-character for Glinda to say considering she was supposed to be a "good" witch.  Granted, Glinda wasn't fleshed out at all but she's supposedly capable of White magic and only the Pure of Heart can go through her special door.  Turning a man into a slave monkey is disturbing and should have raised all sorts of red flags, beyond Zelena's disturbing obsession with her sister.  

 

Then again, I also did not buy that Walsh, a simple human, could have found out all that information about Zelena's childhood so quickly, even giving her an audiovisual show about her origins.  

[kili]

Granted, Glinda wasn't fleshed out at all but she's supposedly capable of White magic and only the Pure of Heart can go through her special door.

 

On the other hand, she wasn't capable of doing white magic strong enough to stop Zelena. Meanwhile, Regina who struggles with learning new magic, was new to white magic and who has a heart as black as coal which wasn't even in her body  was able to beat Zelena without blinking an eye. And, don't forget that Glinda could not go herself through that special door. So, maybe she's not as pure as her dress might imply.

 

Maybe she was like the Wizard - a few parlor tricks used to create an illusion (how much magic did we see her do? She had to walk the yellow-brick road to get to the Emerald City with Dorothy and she used her hands to get Dorothy out of the house) and trying to get a real magical person like Zelena to do stuff for her.

 

If Glinda and her sisters really were bopping around Oz doing magical good for people, why did Zelena's dad think all magic was wicked? A bet there was something going on shifty with Glinda. I'd like that twist more than Zelena being Regina's sister and Eva being evil because she told somebody who was being duped the truth.

Edited October 19, 2014 by kili

[KAOS Agent]

So what you're saying is that Glinda's Boobs of Power were fake?

[Camera One]

LOL, KAOSAgent.  

 

 

 

And, don't forget that Glinda could not go herself through that special door. So, maybe she's not as pure as her dress might imply.

 

Glinda couldn't go through the door since she was banished there by Zelena.  Glinda is probably as pure as they come since on this show, pure equals stupid and giving multiple chances to crazy unstable psychopaths.

 

 

 

On the other hand, she wasn't capable of doing white magic strong enough to stop Zelena. Meanwhile, Regina who struggles with learning new magic, was new to white magic and who has a heart as black as coal which wasn't even in her body  was able to beat Zelena without blinking an eye.

 

Nobody can do Regina's level of White Magic since she's the most special person in all the realms.  

 

The reasons Glinda seems shady are similar to the reasons why Blue seems shady.  It's mainly because of limited information about them and their powers since the writers never worked them out and aren't interested in telling their stories.  Other than the fact that they "created" the villains by making them feel excluded.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I wish this show would take more risks, turn things upside down. This show used to have a big twist nearly every episode, and lately it's gotten too predictable. 

 

If anything, the problem is every episode is based on "twists".  I agree that many of the twists lately have been lame, but having twists still seems to be the main goal, above character development or even organic plot development.

 

Ep 1

- Elsa and Anna's parents had a big secret!

- Anna is missing!

- Gold finds Mickey Mouse's hat!

 

Ep 2

- Kristoff knew David!

- Bo Peep is evil!

- Anna was the one who taught David how to sword fight!

- The Snow Queen was in Storybrooke all this time!

 

Ep 3

- The Snow Queen was in the urn!

- The Snow Queen was Elsa's aunt!

- Snow Queen knew Emma!

- Gold knew the Snow Queen!

 

I suspect they start with these and then just pad the episodes out from there with stuff for shippers, a dash of Woegina and then a bit of the time filler afterthought characters like Snow.

 

 

 

I'd like some circumstances that really turn everything we know on its head. (Like Going Home! I still can't get over how perfect that reset could have been.)  The writers seem to be avoiding leaving this comfort zone they've setup. Maybe they're afraid of a ratings drop? They must be thinking they can get by with just satisfying shippers.

 

I agree with that.  As we've discussed before, it was ridiculous how quickly they reverted back to the status quo in "Going Home".  Now that it has been done, the whole reset has been wasted and can't be done again.

 

They could have used that reset to do stuff that they never got to do by having the Curse be broken at the end of S1.  Instead of an underground movement against Regina, 3B could have been an underground movement against Zelena, as Emma helps one person after another regain their memories.  Zelena could be clueless about Emma until it's almost too late.  Regina could have experienced what it would be like in a Cursed town with Zelena as Evil Mayor, and that could have built towards her redemption.  They would end with Emma breaking the Curse again, maybe this time with Regina's help, rather than just Regina saving the day.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Yeah, the writers have yet to learn that one major, effective twist that has serious consequences is better than a bunch of nonsensical twists for which there is no follow-up at all.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They would end with Emma breaking the Curse again, maybe this time with Regina's help, rather than just Regina saving the day.

Yes, I wanted this. Regina having to live under Zelena's cursed town would have been fun to watch. I wish they didn't waste the Dark Curse 2 concept the way they did. S1's curse stuff was meticulously detailed, and it was a very, very big deal. Now Snowing casts it, and the only price is Snow has to be the mayor now. It also appears they didn't have as much control over the curse as Regina did with hers. If they wanted to rehash the curse plot, they should've done with it with new fake memories and all kinds of different plot elements. Instead we got flying monkeys at the border, a farmhouse and a barking witch with an attitude problem.

 

A new curse could have lasted a whole 22-episode season. I keep imagining everything 3B could have been. So much freaking potential going on there. What if everyone (except Zelena, Neal and Regina) had their S1 false memories? Imagine Emma's relationship with MM knowing she's her daughter. Stuff like that would have been interesting. It would have helped Emma's home arc considerably. It would have been the revelation she had in 3x22 over the course of several episodes. 

Edited October 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

They could have kept a similar plotline, in that the New Curse couldn't be broken until Henry remembered, and Emma would still be torn about that.  So Emma helps individual people remember, until near the end of the arc.  Rumple could have been a mental patient at the hospital due to Neal being in his head.  I still think Henry should have remembered everyone BUT Regina, and she can slowly earn his trust.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I still think Henry should have remembered everyone BUT Regina, and she can slowly earn his trust.

Memoryless Henry sitting around playing video games was OoC, imo. He was totally suspicious that something fishy was going on, yet he didn't decide to take action until 3x19. Surely he would have tried to figure out what was up to some degree. The kid has always been super investigative.