S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Francie]

19 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I think that is a very rose colored view of Shae. Tyrion specifically broke up with her to save her life and get her out of danger, which backfired spectacularly cause the way he did it was cruel and she was pissed. There is nothing shown onscreen that she was coerced in anyway to testify, and her testimony was specifically vindictive and bitter. She wanted him to die out of vengeance. She even tries to kill him when he comes across her in Tywins bed. She literally tried to stab him. 

 

Im not justifying Tyrions actions, but I don't think it's fair to whitewash Shae and paint her as fragile little victim of circumstances.( not in this instance anyway...her life itself was definitely tragic and I don't mean to diminish that)

To the contrary, we only have the same perspective as Tyrion.  We don't know if Shae was forcibly taken off the boat. We do know that Tywin ordered, at the purple wedding, for her to be taken to his room.  So we do know that someone was looking to intercede and bring her to Tywin.  We don't know if she felt coerced in sleeping with Tywin, and was making the best of a bad situation. You're assuming that Shae being "pissed" at the manner by which Tyrion dismissed her translated to her taking revenge.  There are a ton of unknowns.

I don't think anyone should blame Shae at all for her instincts when she's in one man's bed and her ex-long-term-john comes in. And, it turns out, her instincts were right. He was fueled with anger, and he killed her.

And to anyone inclined to say that Shae "escalated" the situation by reaching for the knife, that's OJ's excuse for killing Nicole ("If she had never answered the door with a knife ...."). It's the excuse a lot of domestic violence perpetrators.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

If she wanted his armies she arrived at the perfect opportunity.  Jon's not there.  If need be, assume his face and command the armies to do what she wants.  Has she even been shown covertly observing the armies?

The fact she detoured to see her family isn't about conscience, but about familial love -- something she would be demonstrably absent of if she were simply the amoral killing machine you suggest.

And yet, look how she's treating Sansa.  I really feel the familial love...  Even sociopathic serial killers can have positive feelings for some things though (for example, a love of their pets or a protection of their family), so I'm sorry, but I still disagree.  

She can't assume Jon's face because Jon is using Jon's face, right?  I thought a person had to be dead for her to take their face.  (I may be wrong, because Arya is the worst, so I don't entirely pay attention to her storyline.  The whole thing with the faceless men and her "training" was ridiculously stupid, IMO.)

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

To the contrary, we only have the same perspective as Tyrion.  We don't know if Shae was forcibly taken off the boat. We do know that Tywin ordered, at the purple wedding, for her to be taken to his room.  So we do know that someone was looking to intercede and bring her to Tywin.  We don't know if she felt coerced in sleeping with Tywin, and was making the best of a bad situation. You're assuming that Shae being "pissed" at the manner by which Tyrion dismissed her translated to her taking revenge.  There are a ton of unknowns.

I don't think anyone should blame Shae at all for her instincts when she's in one man's bed and her ex-long-term-john comes in. And, it turns out, her instincts were right. He was fueled with anger, and he killed her.

And to anyone inclined to say that Shae "escalated" the situation by reaching for the knife, that's OJ's excuse for killing Nicole ("If she had never answered the door with a knife ...."). It's the excuse a lot of domestic violence perpetrators.

I thought it was pretty clear onscreen that Shae was vengeful. She threw poor Sansa under the bus with a complete fabrication ( because Tyrion basically told her that Sansa was a lady  and she was nothing but a whore) she even said " I'm just a whore" to Tyrions face on the stand to drive home the point that she was doing this on purpose. I mean, your entitled to your own interpretation, but I thought it was made pretty clear what her motivation was. 

Also, please don't assume that I said she was asking for it. That's completely unnecessary and I didn't say once that she wasn't a victim. Just because I'm seeing both sides to this particular situation and not making one person out to be a saint doesn't mean that I advocate or excusing domestic abuse. 

[FnkyChkn34]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Arya not my favorite, Sansa is, but I honestly don't think she wants Jon's army, it's just what she tells us in book, Needle is WF...Jon's smile.

I'm sorry, you lost me.  Needle is Winterfell?  And Needle is Jon's smile?

I don't honestly think she wants Jon's armies either (also, he barely has any) but we don't honestly know the reason she detoured North instead of going to kill Cersei.  Has she FINALLY maybe, just maybe, grown sick of killing???  Doesn't seem like it because she still talks about it incessantly, so she must think a detour North will still help her with her murderous "mission."

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm sorry, you lost me.  Needle is Winterfell?  And Needle is Jon's smile?

I don't honestly think she wants Jon's armies either (also, he barely has any) but we don't honestly know the reason she detoured North instead of going to kill Cersei.  Has she FINALLY maybe, just maybe, grown sick of killing???  Doesn't seem like it because she still talks about it incessantly, so she must think a detour North will still help her with her murderous "mission."

In, Bravos, when she has to discard, Arya's Stark's belongings, she could not get rid of Needle ( her Sword )it's what grounds her on Home and Family. A book quote.

[Francie]

 I thought it was pretty clear onscreen that Shae was vengeful. She threw poor Sansa under the bus with a complete fabrication ( because Tyrion basically told her that Sansa was a lady  and she was nothing but a whore) she even said " I'm just a whore" to Tyrions face on the stand to drive home the point that she was doing this on purpose. I mean, your entitled to your own interpretation, but I thought it was made pretty clear what her motivation was.

I read the scene differently, and I think it's more ambiguous. But we've drifted far from talking about Jaime and Tyrion's conversation in Episode 5, so I think it's time to either take this to the Tyrion thread or let us agree to disagree.  I'm inclined to the later, and wait and see if this plot point is revisited in the future. 

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

I read the scene differently, and I think it's more ambiguous. But we've drifted far from talking about Jaime and Tyrion's conversation in Episode 5, so I think it's time to either take this to the Tyrion thread or let us agree to disagree.  I'm inclined to the later, and wait and see if this plot point is revisited in the future. 

Sounds fair :)

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Chaos is a ladder. Sansa was never in any real danger in either of those instances.  Dontos owed his life to Sansa, he wasn't going to fuck it up. If there was any danger of that plan failing, Littlefinger wouldn't have been waiting in the harbor.  Littlefinger was right there watching Lysa and attacked before it got too far.  Same for Sansa here in Winterfell here she's protected. True Arya has morphing powers, but Littlefinger doesn't know that.

I think LF has put Sansa in real danger multiple times.  She was in real danger when she fled KL, when Lysa confronted her over the kiss and when married to Ramsey Bolton.  In the first 2 cases it wasn't as dangerous as it seemed, because LF did mitigate the dangers he created. But there was always a chance Sansa could have been captured fleeing KL or that Lysa would have made her "fly" before LF got to her.   He is not trying to kill her, but he is willing to put her life in danger to further his plans. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

I think LF has put Sansa in real danger multiple times.  She was in real danger when she fled KL, when Lysa confronted her over the kiss and when married to Ramsey Bolton.  In the first 2 cases it wasn't as dangerous as it seemed, because LF did mitigate the dangers he created. But there was always a chance Sansa could have been captured fleeing KL or that Lysa would have made her "fly" before LF got to her.   He is not trying to kill her, but he is willing to put her life in danger to further his plans. 

We don't know what LF is playing at.  And he did endanger Sansa by kissing her in Lysa's house.  He knew the full picture with Lysa, the entire backstory with Catelyn, etc.  He knew that kissing her where they could be seen was a genuine risk to Sansa's life.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I think that is a very rose colored view of Shae. Tyrion specifically broke up with her to save her life and get her out of danger, which backfired spectacularly cause the way he did it was cruel and she was pissed. There is nothing shown onscreen that she was coerced in anyway to testify, and her testimony was specifically vindictive and bitter. She wanted him to die out of vengeance. She even tries to kill him when he comes across her in Tywins bed. She literally tried to stab him. 

 

Im not justifying Tyrions actions, but I don't think it's fair to whitewash Shae and paint her as fragile little victim of circumstances.( not in this instance anyway...her life itself was definitely tragic and I don't mean to diminish that)

IMO, Shae seemed almost willfully clueless to the danger she was in.  Tywin had promised to kill the next whore he caught in Tyrion's chamber.  He finally had to break up with her cruelly, for her own safety, which embittered her against Tyrion and motivated her to falsely testify against him and sleep with his father.  

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

We don't know what LF is playing at.

Yes we do, get WF through Sansa, isolate her from anyone who can benefit her, make her feel that he is the ONLY one who can protect and care for her.

We know that Sansa knows: NO ONE can protect me, NO ONE can protect anyone.

Edited August 18, 2017 by GrailKing

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Yes we do, get WF through Sansa, isolate her from anyone who can benefit her, make her feel that he is the ONLY one who can protect and care for her.

We know that Sansa knows: NO ONE can protect me, No ONE can protect anyone.

Yes, we know Sansa knows NO ONE can protect anyone. 

We were shown LF not only taking in Arya sparring with Brienne, but also hearing her answer about her training.  He also has a background which greatly suggests he may very well have understood her answer when Sansa, Brienne nor Pod had no idea.

WF may be a piece of what LF is playing at, however I very much doubt that's all.  I suspect LF is a key player in the much, much larger game afoot -- one that's far, far beyond thrones.  

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Yes, we know Sansa knows NO ONE can protect anyone. 

We were shown LF not only taking in Arya sparring with Brienne, but also hearing her answer about her training.  He also has a background which greatly suggests he may very well have understood her answer when Sansa, Brienne nor Pod had no idea.

WF may be a piece of what LF is playing at, however I very much doubt that's all.  I suspect LF is a key player in the much, much larger game afoot -- one that's far, far beyond thrones.  

Are you talking just her no one line, because, I can't remember if Sansa just walked away from LF at that point, and Arya said that softly so only we and Breieene  heard it.

But Sansa did pick up on what Arya first said to Breieene and understood the implications with her quick not so happy side glance at LF.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:12 PM, Oscirus said:

Yea, Rhaegar's the biggest piece of shit in all of westeros. So glad he had time to get an annulment while so many were dying for his dumb ass

That final draft cleaned up the script very well. Both Dany and Tyrion presented compelling points on how to deal with the Tarlys without either being right or wrong.

That wight hunt is not a smart idea.

When the hell did Cersei become such a master game player? Back in the day, she would've killed Tyrion as soon as she landed but she waited, or did Jaime telling her that Oleanna was the murderer have a bigger effect on her then even she cares to admit.

So Arya knows how to pick locks now? Whatever way to establish that I guess.

Littlefinger's playing chess while Arya's playing checkers.

At some point there's going to be consequences for Sam' actions right?  At this point, I expect him to get his chain right after the white walker war. 

I sometimes forget how good dinkelage can be when given the right actors to bounce off. Holy shit was that scene between the two brothers intense.

I'm sure lock picking would be part of Arya's  assassin training.  Besides that, she was always mischievous,  and curious, so I could see her figuring out how to pick the locks at Winterfell as a young girl. 

LF is playing chess, but Arya might be playing an even more complex game.   She knows what kind of person she is dealing with.  I'm not sure LF realizes she is a Faceless Man.  She probably would have been better off not showing off her skills or telling Brienne "No one" taught her them.   Would LF know what that means or is that something the Faceless Men only say amonst themselves?

Consequences for Sam?  He seems to get away with bending or breaking the rules all the time.  

On 8/13/2017 at 10:25 PM, Tvfangirl said:

So, Dany, who needs to bend the knee now?

Assuming Dany eventually finds out that Jon is actually the legitimate son of her older brother and the rightful Targaryen heir, I almost think she would bend the knee.  Her claim on the iron throne has been based almost entirely on lineage.  It would be hard for her to keep pressing her claim to the throne when she realizes she has no legal claim to it.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:31 PM, Francie said:

Varys in season 5:  "The seven kingdoms needs someone stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis..."

Stannis to Mance: Bend your knee. Or die. (By fire)

Daenerys to soldiers:  Bend the knee. Or die. (By fire)

So much for being gentler than Stannis. 

Dany hasn't burned any little girls at the stake yet, murdered her brother, or tried to murder her innocent nephew in blood magic rituals.  

They dealt with resisters to their authority in a similar way, but Stannis showed more more willingness to brutally murder innocents.  

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:38 PM, Lemuria said:

Because there won't be an Iron Throne or a Westeros if the WW win?  

I'm not convinced Cersei would care.  The only thing I could see making her care about the survival of Westeros would be her unborn child ruling in the future, if she really is pregnant. 

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:57 PM, Tvfangirl said:

I can't wait for that..after hearing the Queen Daenerys, first of her name spiel so many times. 

Well, she'll always have Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, The Unburnt, Myhsa, Khalessi of the Great Grass Sea and Queen of Meereen (Am I forgetting any?) :)

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, Francie said:

But Tyrion was disingenuous. He killed Tywin because of Shae. That was his prime motivator, not his physical stature. He was drawing from bucket A to seek forgivenesses and acceptance for something caused by emotions drawn from bucket B. 

No he didn't, he killed Tywin for a number of reasons, Shae may have been the last straw, but remember, he was going to see Tywin before he even knew about Shae.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

In, Bravos, when she has to discard, Arya's Stark's belongings, she could not get rid of Needle ( her Sword )it's what grounds her on Home and Family. A book quote.

Thanks for clarifying.  I think Needle represents a lot of different things, actually.  It's her connection to Westeros in general, Winterfell, her family, and Jon - but it's also her weapon, and she can use it to kill.  It's not like it's a harmless flower or scarf or something...

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

LF is playing chess, but Arya might be playing an even more complex game.   She knows what kind of person she is dealing with.  I'm not sure LF realizes she is a Faceless Man.  She probably would have been better off not showing off her skills or telling Brienne "No one" taught her them.   Would LF know what that means or is that something the Faceless Men only say amonst themselves?

That's a good point. Arya has the benefit, right now, of people not knowing what she can do. She should really be keeping it to herself. Unfortunately, I think LF is getting a whiff of it. The more he knows his enemies the easier it is for him to take them out. If she doesn't show off her skills he will underestimate her. But Arya's strength is in actual strength, she's not as good at the espionage and social gameplay. She needs to learn it fast because LF is on to her and I do not want him getting the better of any of the Starks.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/14/2017 at 0:44 AM, Oscirus said:

Another thing, so Jamie was fighting off dothraki like it was  nothing last week yet this week, he's having conversations with Bronn about still needing more training? Holy contradicting scenes batman.

The training was a  ploy by Bronn to arrange the meeting with Tyrion.  

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The training was a  ploy by Bronn to arrange the meeting with Tyrion.  

I get that, but that particular ploy shouldn't have worked

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/14/2017 at 2:31 AM, Insomnia said:

Dany is a woman. Targaryen rule has always been patriarchal. The one time there was a female heir a whole lotta dragons died.

Even if Dany were a man, Jon would be ahead of her in line.  Rhaegar was Aryes eldest son and child.  His legitimate children would be ahead of Viserys and Dany.  It was only the death of Rhaeger, and the apparent death of all of his children that made Viserys the king and upon his death, without having any children, Dany the queen.   

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I get that, but that particular ploy shouldn't have worked

I believe Jaime was a bit skeptical about it, and you don't always need a perfect ploy to fool someone who trusts you, especially Jaime, who isn't exactly the brightest Lannister.  

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Francie said:

He understood it with Pod. He knew that Pod would be compelled to testify and that, while Cersei had just offered him a carrot at that point, she'd soon be showing him the stick and making him an offer he couldn't refuse. 

But yet, that understanding went right out the window when it came to Shae. He knows that she has no power. He knows, or at least should know, that she has to testify or her life is in danger.  But, still, the understanding that was given to Pod was not given to her. 

And Shae's testimony was unnecessary. Tyrion knew that he was done for already. Jaime knew it, and that's why -- even before Shae's testimony -- Jaime offered up himself for Tyrion's life. So, Shae didn't sentence Tyrion to death. Her testimony was a pile on. An unnecessary pile on that Tywin inflicted to embarrass his son. Tryion would have been convicted without Shae's testimony. It was Tyiron's pride and wounded ego that made him lash out and not take the deal being offered him. 

Be salty all you want. I get that. I get the attitude. But you're going to murder as well? The act is what I condemn. 

Tyrion did his best to get Shae to safety, and she turned around and came back. She rejected his protection AND falsely testified against him and Sansa. Instead of trying to explain, she grabbed a knife the next time she saw Tyrion.  In both the books and on the show it was obvious she had spied on him for Tywin.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

If it didn't happen in THIS episode it doesn't belong in here; the Tyrion killing Shae conversation and whether Dany or Jon have the stronger claim leading to discussion of Rhaegar etc are OFF TOPIC. 

Every episode this season so far the reader episode topic has gone wildly off the rails; instead of taking the resulting discussions to an appropriate place. If it continues then we will not have book reader episode topics next season.

It's up to you guys, it's in your hands. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Arya and Sansa are two very different people and always have been. Their past experiences and traumas have only exacerbated those differences. They both went through horrible experiences. They both witnessed their father being executed. Sansa was abused in Joffrey's court and manipulated and used at every turn since. Arya witnessed her brother's body being desecrated and spent years hiding and running from those who might harm her. Who they are now as individuals are very direct results of everything they'd endured.

As sisters, I don't doubt that they love one another as family, but they may not like one another as people. Arya is, in Sansa's eyes, coarse and cruel and her penchant for violence (not to mention her very obvious skill that she was happy to display), is probably very disturbing. Sansa is, in Arya's eyes, and elitist snob who seeks position and her own well being regardless of who suffers as a result.

I absolutely agree (except maybe the part about Sansa thinking Arya's cruel - she didn't know that before their argument). But currently Arya is being the aggressor toward Sansa. She is, suddenly and without warning, flinging viciously hurtful and serious accusations at Sansa, with little to no provocation. Yes, she dislikes seeing Sansa in her parents' bedroom, but she doesn't ask why Sansa took it, to get "a clear impression" of Sansa as she is now, she just tells her it's because she's exactly the same as when Arya was 10; wanting all the prettiest things for herself and thinking she's better than everyone else. There are other reasons Arya could think of for taking that bedroom, even if she were completely ignorant of Sansa's rape in the second-best bedroom. Like I said earlier, she could imagine that the memory of their parents comforts Sansa. Or, knowing Jon as well as she did, she might imagine that Jon preferred Sansa take it because Catelyn loathed him in life and he couldn't sleep well there while imagining her angry gaze on him. (Hell, maybe that's even partly the truth). But Arya leaps straight to the worst conclusion, and flings the hurtful accusation in Sansa's face like a judge in a trial that Sansa suddenly realizes Arya is putting her on. Unlike a judge, she does not then ask Sansa how she pleads to the accusation; in her mind she's the jury too, and she's convicted her of it without doubt.

Same with the accusation about Sansa as Regent, which is far more serious, since it doesn't just denigrate Sansa's personality. It charges her with betraying the brother Arya loves; indeed, maybe the only person left that Arya still really loves. Arya disagrees with Sansa's approach to the lords, feeling it's too soft and allows too much disrespect of Jon. She may or may not have a point; IMO it's too early to judge, but whatever. But she doesn't just tell Sansa she's wrong and give her any remotely practicable advice about what to do instead, hoping she will take it. She immediately grabs it as evidence for the accusation that "what you REALLY want" is Jon dead and Sansa the Queen.

Now, maybe Arya saw a flick of genuine pleasure cross Sansa's face when the lords flattered her that she might be ruler, followed by the horror before rejecting the notion that she also says she saw. (I didn't see it, but let's say Arya really has those Super Ninja Body Language Reading Powers that she thinks she has.) But no matter what superpowers of facial analysis Arya has, I can guarantee that she did not see the equivalent of a neat bar graph projected behind Sansa with one tall bar labeled "Sansa's desire for Jon to die so she can be queen: 99.999%" a tiny line labeled "Sansa's desire to see Jon come home safe and take back his throne: 0.0001%", and a helpful caption beneath: "Sansa REALLY wants Jon to die so she can be queen!" Facial expressions can't convey that information; that is Arya's own biased conclusion based on the impression she got of Sansa when she was 10. Again, she flings her conclusion at Sansa as a judge with an accusation, again she does not ask her to plead innocence or guilt; she The Jury has convicted her of it already.

And I disagree that Arya and Sansa are both "not actually talking to one another, but more at one another." Whatever Sansa failed to say till now, at least in this confrontation she was willing to ask Arya what was UP with her and listen to the answer. She learned an earful of new, scary but very important information from Arya. Arya got nothing, because she did not ASK for anything from Sansa. She just TOLD Sansa what she thought. She is not interested in asking Sansa anything, she thinks she knows everything she needs to know about Sansa - and therefore learned nothing about her from their talk.

This is dangerous. It's dangerous because Sansa knows, and Arya knows she knows, that Arya has not just constituted herself judge and jury to people she hates. She has constituted herself executioner too...and she's clearly shown to Sansa and to multiple other witnesses that she has the skill and probably the experience to carry out the death sentences she pronounces. She's accusing Sansa of wanting to commit treason - and we all know what the sentence for treason is, and we know who Arya would want to protect from harm more than anyone else in the world. We know even better than Sansa does that Arya is making veiled threats to Sansa - her calm, cold, smile is the same one she had when she cut Frey's throat. And I say that's dangerous - to Arya herself more than to Sansa. I don't think Arya is capable of actually kinslaying yet (though if she gathers enough 'evidence' to back up her preconceived notion that Sansa is an active threat to Jon, that may change). I think Arya is in danger of making LESS veiled threats to Sansa in front of witnesses - and that would constitute treason against the Regent assigned by King Jon himself, and quite lawfully punishable by death - which IMO is what LF is aiming for.

Some might say that Arya isn't dumb enough to do that. Unfortunately, we see in the episode that Arya already tends to overestimate her own covert skills. She already has engaged in breaking and entering in front of a witness she didn't know was there - the only reason that LF didn't gather a couple more witnesses and catch her with her hands in his drawers was because he is aiming to catch her at bigger crimes. LF spotted her following him even though she thought she was concealed...he was an old hand at spying around castles long before Arya was born, and he has Arya eagerly following his trail of poisoned breadcrumbs to the trap he's laying for her. Arya could save herself from this trap - but to do that, she'd have to be flexible enough to believe that maybe she's misjudged Sansa and question her own convictions. And I can't see how that can happen with her current absolute refusal to question the conclusions she's jumped to. IMO, it's probably going to be up to Sansa - the sister who's at least been flexible enough to ASK before she judges - to bend further to save Arya's ungrateful ass.

[Constantinople]

Jorah: I return to your service, my queen, if you'll have me.

Daenerys: It would be my honor. 

Yes, I'm a big softie

[Mabinogia]

58 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think Arya is in danger of making LESS veiled threats to Sansa in front of witnesses - and that would constitute treason against the Regent assigned by King Jon himself, and quite lawfully punishable by death - which IMO is what LF is aiming for.

Oooh, that's intriguing. I certainly wouldn't put it past LF to set something like that up. And we see that the lords of the north are pro-Sansa so the idea has some weight to it. Hmm, I think I like this idea. Could make for an interesting story.

[Haleth]

22 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Yes we do, get WF through Sansa, isolate her from anyone who can benefit her, make her feel that he is the ONLY one who can protect and care for her.

I said waaaaaay back, many pages ago that it's too bad Jon couldn't borrow a dragon and make a quick trip to WF to remind everyone who is boss, but it's also too bad Jon can't make a stop at WF after nabbing a WW.  Seeing first hand what is about to invade the North would quell any interest LF has in WF and would put him on a boat to Essos quicker than he could say "magic transporter."

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

I said waaaaaay back, many pages ago that it's too bad Jon couldn't borrow a dragon and make a quick trip to WF to remind everyone who is boss, but it's also too bad Jon can't make a stop at WF after nabbing a WW.  Seeing first hand what is about to invade the North would quell any interest LF has in WF and would put him on a boat to Essos quicker than he could say "magic transporter."

From a story point, yes, but this is also where Sansa's Vale arc is coming full circle, showing her training from a child through her learning from some smart but awful people. Littlefinger isn't Jon's story or end game, that's Sansa's alone, find his crimes, present them and end him, then move on to take care of the people and the North while Jon and company do the fighting.

On 8/18/2017 at 11:32 AM, Tikichick said:

Yes, we know Sansa knows NO ONE can protect anyone. 

We were shown LF not only taking in Arya sparring with Brienne, but also hearing her answer about her training.  He also has a background which greatly suggests he may very well have understood her answer when Sansa, Brienne nor Pod had no idea.

WF may be a piece of what LF is playing at, however I very much doubt that's all.  I suspect LF is a key player in the much, much larger game afoot -- one that's far, far beyond thrones.  

I did fix that bye the way, you were faster though.

[Lemuria]

Re Sansa and Arya:  neither one has seen the other for over 6 years and to some extent, they still see some of the same traits in each other that they saw all those years ago.  We haven't seen them have a long discussion, which means that neither of them know what the other's been through or how each has changed.  With Jon, for example:  Arya was very close with Jon and she knew that Sansa didn't treat him well.  Back then, Sansa took her cues in regard to Jon from Catelyn.  I can't remember if it's in the show or the books (or maybe both!) that we learn that Sansa practically didn't talk to him at all in the years before they left Winterfell.  We, the audience, know that Sansa has changed greatly in this regard and has apologized for her behavior but Arya doesn't know that as yet.  So when it appears to her that Sansa is at least interested in hearing from the various lords that maybe there should be a QiTN instead of a KiTN, part of her judgment is based on what she knew about Sansa and Jon's relationship before everything went to Hell in a handbasket.

The room is part of this:  Arya doesn't know how it went down and so it seems that Sansa is giving off signals that she should be in charge and not Jon.  All Sansa had to do to diffuse that part of the lack of understanding was to tell Arya what really happened:  "Hey, I told Jon he should have the room but he said he shouldn't because he wasn't a Stark, and I said he was to me but he still insisted that I take the room. So I did because it was what he wanted."  That conversation immediately casts a different light on things.

I know that some posters will ask why Sansa had to be the one to explain this to Arya and my answer would be, "Because of the two of them, she's the only one who knows."  It would be so easy to diffuse at least that part of any problems between them, why not do it?

 

Thinking about what Varys was saying about his letting, even enabling, Aerys to kill all those people (accompanied by his telling Dany in a prior ep that he'll support a monarch that puts the people first) makes me wonder if the current Varys isn't trying to expiate the guilt he feels over not taking the right action back at the time of the tournament.  Rhaegar had set up the tournament with many sizeable prizes expressly for the purpose of getting all of the lords to show up.  He intended to have a Great Council to discuss the problem of his increasingly-insane father and to see if he could not get them to agree to go along with deposing Aerys and backing Rhaegar for the throne.  Varys' intelligence system got the word back to him and he proceeded to put a spike in those plans by convincing Aerys to go to the tournament, which meant the council could not be set up and/or go forward. 

Lyanna choosing Rhaegar over Robert would have bruised Robert's ego but he couldn't have fought a war against the Targaryens on his own.  It was the killing of Rickard and Branden Stark that caused House Stark to rise in rebellion and with it, the North.  Maybe Varys now regrets not letting the council go forward.

(I've seen comments elsewhere about how the war started because of Rhaegar's "crazy obsession" that the Long Night and the second Battle for the Dawn was coming.  Well, as we watched the NK and his army march toward Eastwatch, he doesn't look quite so crazy anymore, does he?)

 

Quote

Tyrion did more then unchain them, he was even petting Rhaegal while telling his story of wanting a dragon.

I have to respectfully disagree.  I think there was a big difference between that ep and this one.  Tyrion never petted Rhaegal.  Tyrion was talking to the dragons, trying to get them not to eat him, and while he was reaching up to the collar--and because he'd always wanted to touch a dragon--he rested one hand briefly on the dragon and then continued on to unlock the collar.  At no time did he pet Rhaegal, certainly not the way Jon was petting Drogon, nor did Rhaegal respond with any affection.  To me, the Tyrion scene was much more about showing us that the dragons could understand more than pretty everyone had thought they could.

In this ep, however, Jon is outright petting Drogon.  He's not doing anything to benefit Drogon nor is he someone who had met Drogon before or ever done anything for the dragon (eg fed him or freed him).  And Drogon seems to be making the dragon equivalent of purring sounds.  The camera even pans up so we can see Drogon close his eye (presumably, both eyes!) the way a person might if he or she asked someone to scratch their back and they got just the right spot.

Does Tyrion have Targaryen blood?  I don't know for sure--but I suspect not as there really haven't been any hints that the general audience could pick up on--but I don't think the scene in season 6 confirmed (or even suggested) that the way the scene here did.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Lemuria

[arjumand]

I'm curious about some lines they gave Jon this episode, and wondering if I'm reading too much into them.

First of all, when Jon argues in favour of him leaving, he keeps using the word "stranger" - "I put my trust in you, a stranger  . . . trust in me, a stranger . . ."

It reminded me of Arya in Episode 1, when one of the Lannister soldiers said "my mother always told me to be kind to strangers, and strangers will be kind to you." It was obvious there that Arya was The Stranger, the Death component of the Seven. And there's a good argument to be made (I found an excellent one on youtube) that Arya did in fact kill all those Lannister soldiers offscreen, and we'll find out once she uses one of their faces.

But Jon, unlike unnamed Lannister redshirt soldier, doesn't follow the Seven. So maybe it wasn't meant that way?

The second thing I'm curious about is his goodbye to Daenerys:

"I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, your Grace."

Now, I'm cribbing from a really detailed Tumblr post which analyses the use of this line, though I'd remembered one on my own, and the poster left one instance of this out. It's exclusively a show line, I think, and it's been used three times already:

Mance Rayder to Stannis (just before being burnt alive by him)

Ser Arthur Dayne to Ned (before they fight to the death)

Benjen to Bran (before Benjen leaves Bran at Meera at the weirwood tree, taking the horse . . . hey! WTF, Benjen?)

Now, the third use seems to break the pattern of it being said between antagonists, except if you take into consideration the fact that Benjen doesn't consider himself to be fully human anymore - he can't go through the Wall.

Usually, when we have repeated lines, they're always pretty important and show something about the speaker's character or thought process. For example, when Jon used the "Keep your shield up, or I'll ring your head like a bell" with Olly, we learn one season later that Ned used that line with his younger brother, so he must have used it with Jon. One season later we learn why Jon was so blindsided by Olly's betrayal: he was making the mistake of considering Olly something like a son / younger brother.

But why did they give this line to Jon, saying, saying it to Daenerys? Is it a hint that they might become antagonists, in the future? 

Edited August 20, 2017 by arjumand

[TarotQueen]

Maybe it wont signal antagonism, but that they do eventually experience a final departure from each others company?  That's true of all the past uses as well, although they were all immediate.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I have to respectfully disagree.  I think there was a big difference between that ep and this one.  Tyrion never petted Rhaegal.  Tyrion was talking to the dragons, trying to get them not to eat him, and while he was reaching up to the collar--and because he'd always wanted to touch a dragon--he rested one hand briefly on the dragon and then continued on to unlock the collar.  At no time did he pet Rhaegal, certainly not the way Jon was petting Drogon, nor did Rhaegal respond with any affection.  To me, the Tyrion scene was much more about showing us that the dragons could understand more than pretty everyone had thought they could.

In this ep, however, Jon is outright petting Drogon.  He's not doing anything to benefit Drogon nor is he someone who had met Drogon before or ever done anything for the dragon (eg fed him or freed him).  And Drogon seems to be making the dragon equivalent of purring sounds.  The camera even pans up so we can see Drogon close his eye (presumably, both eyes!) the way a person might if he or she asked someone to scratch their back and they got just the right spot.

Does Tyrion have Targaryen blood?  I don't know for sure--but I suspect not as there really haven't been any hints that the general audience could pick up on--but I don't think the scene in season 6 confirmed (or even suggested) that the way the scene here did.

I'm not going to play the semantic game by arguing whether Tyrion pet him or he rested his hand on Rhaegal.  Fact is Rhaegal never met Tyrion or even had Dany around to control him and Rhaegal had no idea what Tyrion was there for. Hell,  Rhaegal even acknowledged Tyrion's joke so there was some affection in that scene. But ultimately, the point is what Tyrion said in that episode (paraphrasing), "dragons are smart, that they know who their friends are." We likely would've gotten the same reaction from Drogon if it was Missandei out there petting him instead of Jon. The point of that scene was Dany seeing Jon react to Drogon the way he did, as there arent many people around westeros brave enough to react like that to one of her kids.

[Blonde Gator]

6 hours ago, arjumand said:

I'm curious about some lines they gave Jon this episode, and wondering if I'm reading too much into them.

First of all, when Jon argues in favour of him leaving, he keeps using the word "stranger" - "I put my trust in you, a stranger  . . . trust in me, a stranger . . ."

It reminded me of Arya in Episode 1, when one of the Lannister soldiers said "my mother always told me to be kind to strangers, and strangers will be kind to you." It was obvious there that Arya was The Stranger, the Death component of the Seven. And there's a good argument to be made (I found an excellent one on youtube) that Arya did in fact kill all those Lannister soldiers offscreen, and we'll find out once she uses one of their faces.

But Jon, unlike unnamed Lannister redshirt soldier, doesn't follow the Seven. So maybe it wasn't meant that way?

The second thing I'm curious about is his goodbye to Daenerys:

"I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, your Grace."

Now, I'm cribbing from a really detailed Tumblr post which analyses the use of this line, though I'd remembered one on my own, and the poster left one instance of this out. It's exclusively a show line, I think, and it's been used three times already:

Mance Rayder to Stannis (just before being burnt alive by him)

Ser Arthur Dayne to Ned (before they fight to the death)

Benjen to Bran (before Benjen leaves Bran at Meera at the weirwood tree, taking the horse . . . hey! WTF, Benjen?)

Now, the third use seems to break the pattern of it being said between antagonists, except if you take into consideration the fact that Benjen doesn't consider himself to be fully human anymore - he can't go through the Wall.

Usually, when we have repeated lines, they're always pretty important and show something about the speaker's character or thought process. For example, when Jon used the "Keep your shield up, or I'll ring your head like a bell" with Olly, we learn one season later that Ned used that line with his younger brother, so he must have used it with Jon. One season later we learn why Jon was so blindsided by Olly's betrayal: he was making the mistake of considering Olly something like a son / younger brother.

But why did they give this line to Jon, saying, saying it to Daenerys? Is it a hint that they might become antagonists, in the future? 

You are correct about the "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come" line in this episode. 

I can answer your question, but I want to make it clear it's not my theory.  There are 5 YT videos by The Order of the Green Hand about The Wars to Come.  The Order of the Green hand is a now defunct Knightly Order of the Realm, originating with the descendents of Garth the Gardner, the first King of the First Men (King of the Reach, and Father of most of the Great Houses of Westeros, including the Starks).  Basically, the theory states that the members of the Order of the Green Hand are still secretly active today, and that they have been actively pursuing preparing the realm for the Great War to Come.  (Varys's alter ego the jailer was known to have an ancient gold coin in his room, searched after Tyrion's escape, that had the Green Hand on it). 

Present day members and allies (dead or alive) include Lord Manderly, Mance Rayder (who is said to be Arthur Dayne), Q'oren Halfhand (Ser Oswald Whent), Tormund Giantsbane (Ser Gerold Hightower), as well as Melisandre (Sheira Seastar), Ashara Dayne (Septa Lemore)....who was the mother of Ned's bastard daughter, who is now the wildling Princess Val.  Other allies include Jeor & Maege Mormont, Stannis, Ilario Mopatis, and so forth.  All of these people are theoretically working in concert with Bloodraven, to prepare the realm for the next battle to come.

Hence, the phrase "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come" is a line that the members of the Order of the Green Hand use, a chivalrous phrase, meaning not known, however.  We heard it from Mance, and Arthur Dayne.  Jon obviously heard it from Mance, and repeated it to Dany.  It seems a fitting way to say goodbye to a friend or a foe.

As I said, somewhat of a tinfoil theory, but these YouTubers make a convincing case for it, in their series of videos, using cites from characters in support.  I don't like so many "hidden" people in the story.  But of all of the "hidden people" theories I've read, this one makes the most sense, because there's an actual organization to it, which gives them a purpose for all "dying" and turning up elsewhere.  It's not just a bunch of individual actors. 

Make of it what you will.

[screamin]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Re Sansa and Arya:  neither one has seen the other for over 6 years and to some extent, they still see some of the same traits in each other that they saw all those years ago.  We haven't seen them have a long discussion, which means that neither of them know what the other's been through or how each has changed.  With Jon, for example:  Arya was very close with Jon and she knew that Sansa didn't treat him well.  Back then, Sansa took her cues in regard to Jon from Catelyn.  I can't remember if it's in the show or the books (or maybe both!) that we learn that Sansa practically didn't talk to him at all in the years before they left Winterfell.  We, the audience, know that Sansa has changed greatly in this regard and has apologized for her behavior but Arya doesn't know that as yet.  So when it appears to her that Sansa is at least interested in hearing from the various lords that maybe there should be a QiTN instead of a KiTN, part of her judgment is based on what she knew about Sansa and Jon's relationship before everything went to Hell in a handbasket.

The room is part of this:  Arya doesn't know how it went down and so it seems that Sansa is giving off signals that she should be in charge and not Jon.  All Sansa had to do to diffuse that part of the lack of understanding was to tell Arya what really happened:  "Hey, I told Jon he should have the room but he said he shouldn't because he wasn't a Stark, and I said he was to me but he still insisted that I take the room. So I did because it was what he wanted."  That conversation immediately casts a different light on things.

I know that some posters will ask why Sansa had to be the one to explain this to Arya and my answer would be, "Because of the two of them, she's the only one who knows."  It would be so easy to diffuse at least that part of any problems between them, why not do it?

If that had been the only thing upsetting Arya, it might have worked. Sansa said in response to Arya's diatribe about how Sansa must have taken the room because she wanted to keep the best for herself and feel better than everyone else, "You're angry with me." It was an invitation to talk further. Arya did. Now if the room was the only thing on her mind they could have had a conversation about it, but the room was not really what had made Arya angry. Arya came into the bedroom angry, and when she saw that it was their parents' bedroom she grabbed on to it as further evidence for the idea that was really what was making her angry...the idea she'd gotten when she saw Sansa with the lords - that Sansa was deliberately fostering disrespect for Jon so she could take power herself. Sansa tries to defend herself rationally from that charge. But Arya brushes her arguments aside and announces that she's seen inside Sansa's head and knows for a fact that what Sansa really wants is Jon dead and herself on the throne, even if Sansa rejects the idea so much that she isn't fully aware of it herself.

Now, maybe Sansa could have defended herself more articulately from all the accusations Arya was flinging at her. But IMO, she was kind of shocked at suddenly receiving all these emotional punches below the belt from Arya, who she thought she'd been getting along great with until a moment ago. She tried being reasonable (explaining her attitude with the lords) and Arya brushed it off, and then announced that she knows Sansa's unconscious wishes better than Sansa knows them herself, and they PROVE that what Sansa really wants is Jon to die so she can take the throne. How do you argue with that? How can you defend yourself against that charge? I can't blame Sansa for withdrawing from the conversation; I'd be unnerved by it, even if I didn't know that the coldly smiling girl with the sword and dagger smiled just so when she cut a man's throat.

Edited August 20, 2017 by screamin

[John Potts]

Is Bronn Aquaman to swim that far underwater and drag an armoured Jamie back to the surface? Or maybe a merman? Hey, maybe that means he's actually Varys' secret brother...

Sorry, but Danny was right and Tyrion wrong. If you say "Join me or die!" you have to follow through. And just like Tywin's question, "Which is more noble - to kill thousands in battle or dozens at a dinner?", unless she thinks Cersei is going to surrender (which Tyrion should know is never going to happen) she will have to storm Kings Landing eventually anyway. Yes, that will mean thousands of innocents dying, but just like when Tywin ended Robert's Rebellion by sacking Kings Landing, ultimately that is what Danny will have to do if she wants to be queen. All her pussyfooting around has only served to get her allies killed - and she'd still end up having to sack the city anyway.

I wonder who Randyl would serve if FAegon had landed? I'm guessing his sexism would trump his xenophobia and he'd join his team.

Go Sam, telling truth to power! Though you shouldn't have snapped at Gilly like that. Though he came out with the same line I did about the windows in the Sept of Baelor "Well, none now!"

Shouldn't Jon have checked in at home (or at least Whiteharbour) before going North of the Wall? I mean, it's still idiotic, but you should at least inform your people when you're just down the road.

Arya should be better at sneaking than that.

Jorah - even if you think you're cured, you should probably not touch anyone you actually care about "just in case".

Favourite exchange of the episode:

"You need to convince the one with dragons or the one who fucks her brother?" Tormund
"Both?" Jon

Davos showing the skills that made him such a great smuggler - knowing how to talk his way out of a sticky situation.

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:02 AM, Francie said:

should I ever have to pick an all-star team, my first pick would be Davos, every time.

I hear he's not so hot against werewolves

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:28 PM, Blonde Gator said:

In fact, the Dornish culture reveres children

Maybe in theory, but that didn't stop Darkstar from cutting off Myrcella's ear.