S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Whoa whoa whoa, no grumbling required!  I'm just speculating that Arya and Brienne would have to fight,  but not necessarily to the death.  Waaay up thread I guessed that this could go two ways, either Arya confronts Sansa and they yell at each other, or Arya sees through LF's manipulation and starts working with Sansa to bring him down.  This is just a third option to contemplate, depending on how hacky you think the writers are.

 

Personally, I hope that Arya was allowing herself to be led around by LF, mainly because if she was serious about snooping she would have used one of her bag-o-faces tricks to do it incognito.  I just don't give the writers credit for being that clever though.  I think they'll go for the trite confrontation scene because of angst and drama, and also because heaven forbid that a hero tricks a villain.

 

Do we know for certain that someone has to die in order for Arya to wear their face?  I mean, there was that montage back in S5 where one of the No Ones drank poison then Arya removed several faces from the corpse, including her own, so it's possible faces can be borrowed non-lethally, right?  I'd love to see a scene with Sansa sidling up to LF and getting him to spill the beans, then whipping off her face to reveal Arya getting stabby on him.

I believe from what we've been shown onscreen that there is magic to be had to allow faces to be manipulated without the subject being dead.  I'm completely hazy on the parameters involved.

I could be down with your idea, except it kind of mucks up another one of my personal daydream outcomes -- Sansa takes down LF, as in brings an end to his manipulations AND delivers the death blow personally.  I honestly feel LF has a lot of complex storyline that will have to be played out, so I don't think his endgame (whether they've oh so wisely elected to use my very brilliant idea or come up with an inferior idea of their own) will be happening until the very last few episodes of the entire series run.

Note, comments regarding my fantabulastic LF storyline are to be taken very tongue in cheek.  It's my personal little fantasy idea and I would appreciate not having my bubble burst just yet.

[Oscirus]

Last two seasons notwithstanding, Littlefinger's not going to purposely put Sansa in danger. He's merely trying to isolate her. Besides, this show has gone out of  its way to show us that arya  has a conscience, so I doubt that she'd get violent with her sister.

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Sorry, but stronger than Tommen isn't exactly much of a bar.  I'd imagine young Samwell is only a couple episodes from managing to breach that hurdle himself.  Gentler than Stannis?  The man countenanced his own dear, sweet, beloved child to be burned at the stake in service of his attaining his goals.

"Stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis" is a Varys quote, it was when he was describing what king/queen the 7K needs - according to him.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Last two seasons notwithstanding, Littlefinger's not going to purposely put Sansa in danger. He's merely trying to isolate her. Besides, this show has gone out of  its way to show us that arya  has a conscience, so I doubt that she'd get violent with her sister.

I'm sorry, but what?  How so?  I haven't seen it!  She murders just for revenge and doesn't give two sh*ts about anything else.  

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm sorry, but what?  How so?  I haven't seen it!  She murders just for revenge and doesn't give two sh*ts about anything else.  

The soldiers she met on the road were wearing Lannister cloaks, sworn forces of the very queen Arya was en route to kill.  Her entire interaction with them, beginning to end, shows Arya is far from a mindless killing machine.

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm sorry, but what?  How so?  I haven't seen it!  She murders just for revenge and doesn't give two sh*ts about anything else.  

Her inability to kill random people as a faceless man, her refusal to let the Frey woman die at the frey massacre are a couple of examples.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Oscirus

[FnkyChkn34]

36 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The soldiers she met on the road were wearing Lannister cloaks, sworn forces of the very queen Arya was en route to kill.  Her entire interaction with them, beginning to end, shows Arya is far from a mindless killing machine.

She was outnumbered and knew if she attacked, she'd die.  That's why the camera panned over to their stash of weapons.  I didn't see that as her having a conscience or a heart, but calculating her odds.  She said she was going to kill the queen with a straight face.

 

35 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Her inability to kill random people as a faceless man, her refusal to let the Frey woman die at the frey massacre are a couple of examples.

Inability?  She just hasn't... yet.  I don't think she's incapable.  The Frey woman, maybe.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Last two seasons notwithstanding, Littlefinger's not going to purposely put Sansa in danger.

He already has, by putting Sansa in charge of drunken Dontos to smuggle out of KL at the moment of Joffrey's death, while LF sat safely on a ship in the bay waiting to see if she makes it out alive or not. Risking Arya killing Sansa if she's too convinced by that letter he hid for her to find is him depending again on his luck to win as he's always won till now...

Edited August 17, 2017 by screamin

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

She was outnumbered and knew if she attacked, she'd die.  That's why the camera panned over to their stash of weapons.  I didn't see that as her having a conscience or a heart, but calculating her odds.  She said she was going to kill the queen with a straight face.

 

Inability?  She just hasn't... yet.  I don't think she's incapable.  The Frey woman, maybe.

She absolutely said she was going to kill the queen with a straight face, she means it.  The camera also caught her pausing and hesitating before accepting their offer to share their meal, an indication she would not accept their offer and violate guest right.  We also saw her listening to their feelings about their fate as soldiers, and what they would rather be doing.  She assessed their numbers and their weapons.  She would have been a fool not to.  I don't think it was fear of being outnumbered that prevented her from attacking, not even a little bit.

The fact that she hasn't killed random people as a faceless man yet is merely speculation.  Matter of fact, the fact that she hasn't yet -- and the fact that she detoured from crossing Cersei off her list to heading for WF the moment she heard the news suggests something altogether different than the mantle you're attempting to insist she shoulder.  

[GraceK]

Anyone else upset at the turn Arya is taking? I have always been TeamArya, and I have loved her since the beginning. But this whole being mean and distrustful to Sansa I just can't get behind. I can understand holding on to some resentments, but I feel like Arya has been through enough horror herself and has changed so much, that she should be willing to give Sansa a chance and understand that she might have changed too. It seems like manufactured drama to me...It doesn't make sense that after FINALLY reuniting with her family that her first instinct is to go after her own sister.

Poor Sansa. She's so happy to see her siblings and I feel like she keeps getting kicked in the face .

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

She absolutely said she was going to kill the queen with a straight face, she means it.  The camera also caught her pausing and hesitating before accepting their offer to share their meal, an indication she would not accept their offer and violate guest right.  We also saw her listening to their feelings about their fate as soldiers, and what they would rather be doing.  She assessed their numbers and their weapons.  She would have been a fool not to.  I don't think it was fear of being outnumbered that prevented her from attacking, not even a little bit.

The fact that she hasn't killed random people as a faceless man yet is merely speculation.  Matter of fact, the fact that she hasn't yet -- and the fact that she detoured from crossing Cersei off her list to heading for WF the moment she heard the news suggests something altogether different than the mantle you're attempting to insist she shoulder.  

Just because she detoured to see her family doesn't mean she automatically has a conscience, IMO, which was the original argument.  I don't think she feels remorse for anything that she does or says, and that to me is not having a conscience.  Hot Pie only mentioned Jon - we don't actually know Arya's reasons for wanting to go see Jon again.  Was it out of love, or because she wanted his armies?  Who knows.

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else upset at the turn Arya is taking? I have always been TeamArya, and I have loved her since the beginning. But this whole being mean and distrustful to Sansa I just can't get behind. I can understand holding on to some resentments, but I feel like Arya has been through enough horror herself and has changed so much, that she should be willing to give Sansa a chance and understand that she might have changed too. It seems like manufactured drama to me...It doesn't make sense that after FINALLY reuniting with her family that her first instinct is to go after her own sister.

Poor Sansa. She's so happy to see her siblings and I feel like she keeps getting kicked in the face .

Nope, sorry.  Arya is awful and always has been, IMO.  I've never liked her, so I think this is typical Arya behaviour.  

[Spartan Girl]

It's too bad that the show didn't have the twist about Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, and Jamie's role in what happened. That would have quashed Tyrion's lingering sentimentality. I mean, I get why he still cares about Jamie since he was the only Lannister that ever gave a damn about him (along with Tommen and Myrcella) but COME ON.

[GraceK]

27 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It's too bad that the show didn't have the twist about Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, and Jamie's role in what happened. That would have quashed Tyrion's lingering sentimentality. I mean, I get why he still cares about Jamie since he was the only Lannister that ever gave a damn about him (along with Tommen and Myrcella) but COME ON.

Yeah that was a little weird for me. It seemed really out of place for Tyrion to start going into a self pitying monologue about being a dwarf and his daddy issues. JMO. I understand his need to defend himself to Jaime, cause he was absolutely correct in the fact that Tywin was gonna execute him...it just seemed like he didn't need to start going down a self pitying road. It would have been enough to say " he knew I was innocent and was gonna execute me, I acted in anger etc etc but we have more important things right now". I don't know it just seemed OOC

Edited August 17, 2017 by GraceK
Added

[PatsyandEddie]

8 hours ago, Tikichick said:

For grins and giggles I want her to die giving birth to a dwarf -- of course not until after she's seen the child with her own two eyes.

You have given me another bit to snicker about though, Jamie can name the lad Tywin in honor of dear, old grandpappy.

I had the same thought ! Valenquar ( sp? ) means "little brother" so if this child is a boy, he is a younger brother to Cersei's other children. She could die of complications caused by the birth thus fulfilling the prophecy. Hedy is terrific but damn! Cersei is such an evil, twisted bitch. 

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I don't understand the whole Arya has no sense of humor, Sansa was being so high-handed, etc.?

Arya began the joke by asking the question, Sansa answered, clearly understanding her sister's joke and enjoying the humor in it.  There were hugs all around.  Sansa tells Arya Bran's home, let's her know he's changed and off they scoot to catch up with him. 

At that first intro, I'm not sure, Arya was muted and dead to Sansa's hug, so I wouldn't say Arya started the convo as a joke, it ended ok after talking about Ned, and then she initiated the second hug, and they both smiled.

Arya could just be so wooden, that it could just fail as humor.

ETA: I'm also taking in the accounts of the first two script drafts, where Sansa's reply was " of course not ! " before the final version is a soft YES with a smile.

Edited August 17, 2017 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Does she still look down on her sister? Yeah, she kind of does. She's matured in many ways and I'm not going to take that away from her. She's been through hell, but so has Arya and Jon. Sansa still has a lot of growing up to do.

I don't think she's looking down at her, I think she still sees a little sister; that has changed a lot and from what she saw, she will think it's warranted.

Sansa may need some tweaking, Arya's the one who needs to catch up. Warrior training has a purpose, but it can't help you or your family if your emotionally stuck back 6 years and lacking proper facts.

They got to talk. The problem for Sansa with the  scroll is there is no written substantiation to back her up except for Bran and Arya's going to believe her eyes and that scroll, even though she's only looking not seeing and until she fills in the blanks.

Edited August 18, 2017 by GrailKing
commas

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else upset at the turn Arya is taking? I have always been TeamArya, and I have loved her since the beginning. But this whole being mean and distrustful to Sansa I just can't get behind. I can understand holding on to some resentments, but I feel like Arya has been through enough horror herself and has changed so much, that she should be willing to give Sansa a chance and understand that she might have changed too. It seems like manufactured drama to me...It doesn't make sense that after FINALLY reuniting with her family that her first instinct is to go after her own sister.

Poor Sansa. She's so happy to see her siblings and I feel like she keeps getting kicked in the face .

Arya was always like this. She never liked Sansa, even before the events of King's Road. Much of the stuff Arya "got away with" was picking on Sansa. Mud in the eye, a stain down the front of the dress, a bed full of sheep shit...and Sansa's objections and occasional eyeroll at Arya's shortcomings was always treated as "just as bad." So what opportunity did Arya ever have to develop any empathy for her? Any concern or caring? When was she ever encouraged to?  Sansa's concerns were by definition stupid to Arya. Arya has a conscience, but it only covers things like a sense of honor and being kind to animals and responsible for her servants like Mycah and Gendry. Sansa doesn't fit in the picture because although Arya wants to be a fighter, she never put Sansa in the picture as "lady to be protected." She also doesn't have a lot of empathy, and she has even less of it for Sansa. Sansa can't do the things Arya can do, and that inspires disgust and annoyance in Arya, not protectiveness or concern. Sansa can do a lot of things Arya can't--make clothes, ration food, keep track of groups of people...and this inspires annoyance, too, not admiration or respect. Arya never really saw Sansa as anything but competition. They really aren't in competition for anything now, but the habit is still there. It hasn't been replaced with anything.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Hecate7

[screamin]

12 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Sansa was, unfortunately, a real snob when she was younger. She treated Jon and Arya pretty terribly and she recognizes that fact. Has she totally overcome her deeply ingrained beliefs that she's got more right to lead on account of her birth? Not really. Does she still look down on her sister? Yeah, she kind of does. She's matured in many ways and I'm not going to take that away from her. She's been through hell, but so has Arya and Jon. Sansa still has a lot of growing up to do.

IMO, I think this episode shows clearly that immaturity is just as much, if not more, of a problem for Arya. Not just because she's chronologically younger than Sansa, but because though Arya is exceptionally bright and physically able for her age, from the point of view of emotions and ethics, she thinks and reacts like a child much younger than she chronologically IS. It's only older children that really begin to appreciate that there are shades of grey in situations and people. Arya isn't good at that yet. To her, things are Black or White. You're for us or against us. You're good or evil. If she sees a shade of gray in you? She's liable to decide you're irreversibly Dark Side. And also like a young child, she isn't that good at letting second thoughts get in the way of immediate judgements and first impulses. She decides you're irredeemably evil? She may make herself  judge, jury and executioner. 

She is also childlike in not examining whether her pre-existing prejudices are coloring her perception and reducing her empathy toward someone, thus affecting her judgement poorly.

We can see all that clearly in the confrontation between Sansa and Arya. Arya is happy to see Sansa, willing to let bygones be bygones - as long as Sansa is doing only what she judges as Good. When she sees Sansa being what she perceives as too soft on the complaining lords, she almost immediately broad-jumps over the possibility that Sansa may be merely Wrong - and lands right on the conclusion that Sansa is most likely Evil.

When Sansa asks why Arya is bothered by her using their parents' bedroom, Arya shows her black/white thinking, and the way her old prejudices are unconsciously coloring her present judgement. For anyone looking for possible reasons why Sansa took their parents' room, there's other possible explanations besides the one Arya came up with; for example, she misses her parents and the memory of their presence there comforts her while she sleeps. It's easy to come up with such explanations even if you don't know anything about Sansa's hideous marriage - though  if Arya was really interested, any servant in the castle would likely know the fascinating tale of how Sansa was mistreated by Ramsey and fed him to his dogs. (You'd think this Arya would want to high-five her sister for that awesome move, but noooooo.)

Arya goes straight to the explanation she believes - the only reason Sansa could have taken her parents' room was what 10 year old Arya remembers of Sansa. She allows no other possibility, she does not even ASK Sansa if that really is the explanation, she just TELLS her what she's already made up her mind is true: Sansa did it because she wants the best all to herself and wants to feel better than everybody else, nothing more. This is a vicious emotional slap in the face to Sansa. It also shows Arya's tendency to refuse to see shades of grey and to empathize with anyone she's already made up her mind is Likely Evil.

We see the same in the argument over Jon as king. Arya sees, perhaps, that Sansa felt a flick of pleasure at being homaged as possibly a better ruler than Jon. It does not matter that Arya SAW that Sansa immediately put that aside with horror and tries not to think about it again as she refuses the offer and restates her fidelity to Jon. To Arya that moment of pleasure proves that what Sansa "really wants" is Jon dead and herself on the throne. She has no concept of an adult's competing wishes and fidelities - at least, not THIS adult. If Sansa wants power, even for a second, even if she immediately repudiates the wish - then Arya believes that is the ONLY thing Evil Sansa "really wants," and any opposing wish - including that of wanting Jon back home safe on his throne - MUST therefore be false. Black or white. For Us or Against Us. Good or Evil. Innocent or Guilty. Nothing in between.

As I said, very childlike. The problem is, emotionally and ethically she's still a stunted child in a very dangerous adult body.  I mean, what if she met Sam and he told her he deserted the post Jon personally ordered him to study at based on his own judgement? What if Jon told her he's planning to go to KL to meet peacefully with Cersei to discuss an indefinite cessation of hostilities for an alliance? Most urgently of all, how dangerously is she going to react as she eagerly swallows LF's poisoned bait, especially designed to exacerbate her already venomous paranoid thoughts? She desperately needs to grow up fast, for her own safety and the safety of those around her.

Edited August 18, 2017 by screamin

[mac123x]

I'm rethinking my speculation that Arya was playing along with Littlefinger just to see where he'd lead her and that she wouldn't blunder into his trap.  It give WAY too much credit to the writers for being clever.  My evidence is from last season, when Arya got stabbed in the stomach by the Waif.  Along with everyone else, I thought Arya was baiting a trap for the Waif by being so nonchalant, gadding about Braavos like she had no cares in the world.  Surely she actually had picked up some tricks from the mummers and had a bag of fake blood under her tunic.  The whole thing was a ruse to put the Waif off her scent so she could escape.

 

Of course not; she was just an idiot. 

 

Exact same thing is going to happen here.  She's going to fall for Littlefinger's manipulation hook, line, and sinker.  All the remains to be seen is how many people are injured or die before she figures it out.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

He already has, by putting Sansa in charge of drunken Dontos to smuggle out of KL at the moment of Joffrey's death, while LF sat safely on a ship in the bay waiting to see if she makes it out alive or not. Risking Arya killing Sansa if she's too convinced by that letter he hid for her to find is him depending again on his luck to win as he's always won till now...

And don't forget setting her up to be dangled out the Moon Door.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else upset at the turn Arya is taking? I have always been TeamArya, and I have loved her since the beginning. But this whole being mean and distrustful to Sansa I just can't get behind. I can understand holding on to some resentments, but I feel like Arya has been through enough horror herself and has changed so much, that she should be willing to give Sansa a chance and understand that she might have changed too. It seems like manufactured drama to me...It doesn't make sense that after FINALLY reuniting with her family that her first instinct is to go after her own sister.

Poor Sansa. She's so happy to see her siblings and I feel like she keeps getting kicked in the face .

Her memories are unreliable in KL, she wasn't with Sansa, she basing Sansa on sibling stuff at Winterfell, yeah Sansa was teasing and whiny, and snobbish. She was also kind, and lied for Arya on occasion.

Arya can't match Sansa in the traditional role of a lady and being the younger sister to someone who's loved an fawned over, hurts so she's jealous.

Both are normal stuff; it's when they hit Darry and Joffery starts acting like a jerk that sets things off and then Arya made it worst by hitting the jerk.

Joffery didn't give a shit about the position he put Sansa in, and Arya didn't comprehend the position she put Sansa in, Arya felt betrayed  ( though Sansa did vouch for her ) Ned had to explain it to Arya.

While in KL Sansa doing the courtly stuff and Arya is chasing cats and training, Ned made some errors of judgement ( LF, Cersi ) gets thrown in jail, branded a traitor, Sansa's there pleading for him with the only tools she has, courtly knowledge so she does her best Joffery leads her to believe he will be mercifull if Ned confesses, Sansa is also forced to write a letter dictated by Cersi under threat for Ned's life, hers and Robbs.

Arya's not there, she doesn't understand why Sansa's on that dais and  she doesn't know Sansa's expecting her dad to be sent to the wall and Joffery then betrays her and went against his mothers suggestion and had Ned Killed.

This final image is festering for 6 years, and she doesn't have the FULL picture, just snapshots, with no info.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

we don't actually know Arya's reasons for wanting to go see Jon again.  Was it out of love, or because she wanted his armies?  Who knows.

Arya not my favorite, Sansa is, but I honestly don't think she wants Jon's army, it's just what she tells us in book, Needle is WF...Jon's smile.

[Hecate7]

34 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Arya not my favorite, Sansa is, but I honestly don't think she wants Jon's army, it's just what she tells us in book, Needle is WF...Jon's smile.

Absolutely. If there is one person Arya does love, it's Jon Snow.

Quote

Her memories are unreliable in KL, she wasn't with Sansa, she basing Sansa on sibling stuff at Winterfell, yeah Sansa was teasing and whiny, and snobbish. She was also kind, and lied for Arya on occasion.

Sansa protected Arya, never the other way around. She's older. That's how it works. And in their culture, her birthright is indisputable and does give her the right to the household. There is no question of anyone expecting her to share power with her sister, or give her the Lord's chamber. Sansa moved aside for Jon Snow even though she has the better right, because she is not a snob, and she could see that Jon had the people on his side. She is not taking power from him, even though it is her right. She offered to move aside for Bran immediately, because Bran is Lord of Winterfell.

These are lordly households and it's a feudal society. It's pointless to try to judge them by today's standards of snobbishness vs not. Sansa hasn't had Jon, Arya, or Tyrion's reasons to fraternize with lower ranking people. She does not see them as her equals because she isn't supposed to.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

8 hours ago, screamin said:

He already has, by putting Sansa in charge of drunken Dontos to smuggle out of KL at the moment of Joffrey's death, while LF sat safely on a ship in the bay waiting to see if she makes it out alive or not. Risking Arya killing Sansa if she's too convinced by that letter he hid for her to find is him depending again on his luck to win as he's always won till now...

And don't forget setting her up to be dangled out the Moon Door.

Chaos is a ladder. Sansa was never in any real danger in either of those instances.  Dontos owed his life to Sansa, he wasn't going to fuck it up. If there was any danger of that plan failing, Littlefinger wouldn't have been waiting in the harbor.  Littlefinger was right there watching Lysa and attacked before it got too far.  Same for Sansa here in Winterfell here she's protected. True Arya has morphing powers, but Littlefinger doesn't know that.

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It's too bad that the show didn't have the twist about Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, and Jamie's role in what happened. That would have quashed Tyrion's lingering sentimentality. I mean, I get why he still cares about Jamie since he was the only Lannister that ever gave a damn about him (along with Tommen and Myrcella) but COME ON.

Yeah that was a little weird for me. It seemed really out of place for Tyrion to start going into a self pitying monologue about being a dwarf and his daddy issues. JMO. I understand his need to defend himself to Jaime, cause he was absolutely correct in the fact that Tywin was gonna execute him...it just seemed like he didn't need to start going down a self pitying road. It would have been enough to say " he knew I was innocent and was gonna execute me, I acted in anger etc etc but we have more important things right now". I don't know it just seemed OOC

It makes sense if you think about Tyrion. He's the one character who's used to always having his shield up so when he's around the one person in his life who's loved him unconditionally  and who know hates him, it makes him drop said shield and makes him really vulnerable. I completely understand why he'd fall apart in such a situation.

[Spartan Girl]

12 hours ago, GraceK said:

Yeah that was a little weird for me. It seemed really out of place for Tyrion to start going into a self pitying monologue about being a dwarf and his daddy issues. JMO. I understand his need to defend himself to Jaime, cause he was absolutely correct in the fact that Tywin was gonna execute him...it just seemed like he didn't need to start going down a self pitying road. It would have been enough to say " he knew I was innocent and was gonna execute me, I acted in anger etc etc but we have more important things right now". I don't know it just seemed OOC

Maybe he just should have told him about Tywin banging Shay.

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Arya not my favorite, Sansa is, but I honestly don't think she wants Jon's army, it's just what she tells us in book, Needle is WF...Jon's smile.

Needle is Bran, Rickon, even Sansa...The quote includes Sansa's name too. Sansa may not be Arya's favorite person in the world, but Needle is Sansa too. 

[Francie]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

It makes sense if you think about Tyrion. He's the one character who's used to always having his shield up so when he's around the one person in his life who's loved him unconditionally  and who know hates him, it makes him drop said shield and makes him really vulnerable. I completely understand why he'd fall apart in such a situation.

But Tyrion was disingenuous. He killed Tywin because of Shae. That was his prime motivator, not his physical stature. He was drawing from bucket A to seek forgivenesses and acceptance for something caused by emotions drawn from bucket B. 

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Just because she detoured to see her family doesn't mean she automatically has a conscience, IMO, which was the original argument.  I don't think she feels remorse for anything that she does or says, and that to me is not having a conscience.  Hot Pie only mentioned Jon - we don't actually know Arya's reasons for wanting to go see Jon again.  Was it out of love, or because she wanted his armies?  Who knows.

Nope, sorry.  Arya is awful and always has been, IMO.  I've never liked her, so I think this is typical Arya behaviour.  

If she wanted his armies she arrived at the perfect opportunity.  Jon's not there.  If need be, assume his face and command the armies to do what she wants.  Has she even been shown covertly observing the armies?

The fact she detoured to see her family isn't about conscience, but about familial love -- something she would be demonstrably absent of if she were simply the amoral killing machine you suggest.

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, GrailKing said:

At that first intro, I'm not sure, Arya was muted and dead to Sansa's hug, so I wouldn't say Arya started the convo as a joke, it ended ok after talking about Ned, and then she initiated the second hug, and they both smiled.

Arya could just be so wooden, that it could just fail as humor.

ETA: I'm also taking in the accounts of the first two script drafts, where Sansa's reply was " of course not ! " before the final version is a soft YES with a smile.

Accounts of the first two script drafts?  Well, if we're going to play watch via game of telephone with extrinsic details NOT used to present to the audience -- I'd suggest that what you outlined was scrapped because it didn't allow the audience to see Arya was joking and Sansa got the joke, therefore they decided to go with Sansa delivering the punch line to answer Arya and make it clear.

At the minimum what I'm suggesting actually played out onscreen -- not on some supposedly rejected draft of a script someone supposedly heard about.

ETA  And as far as Arya being muted to Sansa's hug, when is the last time she was hugged?  It's not as if it took her months to warm up, it was within five minutes, right after they shared a very deep familial moment discussing their father -- who they both loved dearly.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Tikichick

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Accounts of the first two script drafts?  Well, if we're going to play watch via game of telephone with extrinsic details NOT used to present to the audience -- I'd suggest that what you outlined was scrapped because it didn't allow the audience to see Arya was joking and Sansa got the joke, therefore they decided to go with Sansa delivering the punch line to answer Arya and make it clear.

At the minimum what I'm suggesting actually played out onscreen -- not on some supposedly rejected draft of a script someone supposedly heard about.

ETA  And as far as Arya being muted to Sansa's hug, when is the last time she was hugged?  It's not as if it took her months to warm up, it was within five minutes, right after they shared a very deep familial moment discussing their father -- who they both loved dearly.

Are you angry with me?

[YaddaYadda]

36 minutes ago, Francie said:

But Tyrion was disingenuous. He killed Tywin because of Shae. That was his prime motivator, not his physical stature. He was drawing from bucket A to seek forgivenesses and acceptance for something caused by emotions drawn from bucket B. 

Isn't that simplifying what Tyrion did though? When he killed Tywin, he had just found out the truth about the Tysha which already spun him out of control. Tywin had Alayaya whipped before that. Him finding Shae in his father's bed was just the icing on the cake. His father who hates whores, made his father's mistress have her own walk of shame through Lannisport. Tywin was a hypocrite. He had a 14 year old girl gang raped because he claimed she was a whore and wanted to teach his son a lesson. 

Even on the show, you could argue that it's Tywin's hypocrisy and holier than thou attitude that made Tyrion pull the trigger. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Are you angry with me?

Angry?  Disagreement is not anger.  Merely because I highlighted what I view as weakpoints in your viewpoint is not anger, it's fleshing out why I disagree. 

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Isn't that simplifying what Tyrion did though? When he killed Tywin, he had just found out the truth about the Tysha which already spun him out of control. Tywin had Alayaya whipped before that. Him finding Shae in his father's bed was just the icing on the cake. His father who hates whores, made his father's mistress have her own walk of shame through Lannisport. Tywin was a hypocrite. He had a 14 year old girl gang raped because he claimed she was a whore and wanted to teach his son a lesson. 

Even on the show, you could argue that it's Tywin's hypocrisy and holier than thou attitude that made Tyrion pull the trigger. 

I'm uncomfortable with the notion that anything but Tyrion "made" Tyrion pull the trigger. He, and he alone, is responsible for that.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the notion that Tyrion -- who just killed a woman with his bare hands -- was taking on the mantle of "my dad treated women unfairly and I'm here to do something about that." 

Tyrion was little more than a spurned boyfriend who felt he had the right to kill his ex-lover, paid lover, because she was unfaithful to him in testifying against him and sleeping with his father.  

And while Tyrion had a lifetime of pent up anger over his father's maltreatment of him and refusal to grant him what Tyrion believed to his birthright, he was largely motivated by payback for his father having exercised control over, and his dismissive attitude toward, the woman he himself had  just killed. Talk about hypocrisy. 

Tyrion was no crusader for women in that moment. He was a bitter, jealous ex. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Francie
Added a pronoun; took out a paragraph

[Hana Chan]

Arya and Sansa are two very different people and always have been. Their past experiences and traumas have only exacerbated those differences. They both went through horrible experiences. They both witnessed their father being executed. Sansa was abused in Joffrey's court and manipulated and used at every turn since. Arya witnessed her brother's body being desecrated and spent years hiding and running from those who might harm her. Who they are now as individuals are very direct results of everything they'd endured.

As sisters, I don't doubt that they love one another as family, but they may not like one another as people. Arya is, in Sansa's eyes, coarse and cruel and her penchant for violence (not to mention her very obvious skill that she was happy to display), is probably very disturbing. Sansa is, in Arya's eyes, and elitist snob who seeks position and her own well being regardless of who suffers as a result. None of these images are complete accurate, but so far neither are doing anything to really change those impressions. They're not actually talking to one another, but more at one another. So neither of them really have a clear impression of what the other has endured and how their experiences changed them.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Angry?  Disagreement is not anger.  Merely because I highlighted what I view as weakpoints in your viewpoint is not anger, it's fleshing out why I disagree. 

If it's anyone's weak point, it be the writers or Maise's , her tone, her stance, etc her delivery of "Do I have to call you Lady Stark " did not come off as being funny (MO) as viewed.If it was succesful, why rewrites, why change the wording ?

And I don't think you got my joke.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

They're not actually talking to one another, but more at one another. So neither of them really have a clear impression of what the other has endured and how their experiences changed them.

True, but it's hard when someone is trying to engage and the other is more broken and keeping it inside and projecting her internal fears outwardly in a way that goes well beyond what another remembers of her.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

I'm uncomfortable with he notion that anything but Tyrion "made" Tyrion pull the trigger. He, and he alone, is responsible for that.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the notion that Tyrion -- who just killed a woman with his bare hands -- was taking on the mantle of "my dad treated women unfairly and I'm here to do something about that." 

Tyrion was little more than a spurned boyfriend who felt he had the right to kill his ex-lover, paid lover, because she was unfaithful to him in testifying against him and sleeping with his father.

I've said none of that though. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, including Tyrion. I just think context is important. Shae lied on the stand about him and Sansa plotting Joffrey's murder. She too is responsible for her own choices. 

Anyway, let's agree to disagree before we fall down the rabbit hole :)

[Tikichick]

Hasn't anyone ever experienced seeing old friends reunited after many years and lots of living?  It's been played out in a lot of movies -- siblings reuniting for the holidays after many years of living across the country too.  No one has dated someone and a few months in attended a family event and noticed that the person seems very different from the person you've been dating?  It's entirely normal for people to fall into old patterns when reunited with people they've known a long time.  Family dynamics in particular are notably difficult to change or escape.  The family reassembles and the momentum to fall into known patterns is strong.  All sorts of awkwardness generally ensues.  Lay that on rather young people who've been seriously traumatized and I don't think Arya and Sansa look all that unusual.

As far as Arya's disquiet with Sansa in her parents' bedroom, it's entirely normal.  She's never had the luxury of actually mourning her parents.  Even if she had, walking into their home, their bedroom, has to have the grief really pumping.  Even had Ned and Catelyn lived to a ripe old age and died natural deaths walking into their bedroom, seeing someone else in their space understandably pains.  I have no doubt it has pain for Sansa as well.  For Sansa we have to factor in she returned to WF without her parents there and was tortured, so for her returning to their bedroom may feel more like sanctuary and protection.  Neither sister is wrong in their feelings about that bedroom.  Both perspectives are valid and understandable to me. 

[Hana Chan]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

If it's anyone's weak point, it be the writers or Maise's , her tone, her stance, etc her delivery of "Do I have to call you Lady Stark " did not come off as being funny (MO) as viewed.If it was succesful, why rewrites, why change the wording ?

Going strictly by how the scene played out (both dialogue and the acting choices), it felt like Sansa may have meant it to be a bit of a joke, but Arya wasn't taking it that way. And I can understand why her character would see it negatively. She knows that Jon is KITN, but while he's away she sees Sansa in the position of Lady Stark and (in Arya's eyes) usurping Jon's place. And given how Arya saw Sansa while they were growing up, with a very elitist worldview and a willingness to lie in order to protect her interests regardless of who might be harmed, it's not unrealistic for her to think the worst. Arya hasn't forgotten that Sansa lied to protect Joffrey from humiliation and stood up for him over her own sister (even though it ended up costing Sansa Lady as punishment). So far, Sansa is doing nothing to change that impression.

I think that things will come to a head between them very soon (since both of them are being manipulated by LF to believe the worst about one another) and they'll end up seeing one another with fresh eyes. But until then, things are likely to continue being very tense between them. 

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

I'm uncomfortable with the notion that anything but Tyrion "made" Tyrion pull the trigger. He, and he alone, is responsible for that.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the notion that Tyrion -- who just killed a woman with his bare hands -- was taking on the mantle of "my dad treated women unfairly and I'm here to do something about that." 

Tyrion was little more than a spurned boyfriend who felt he had the right to kill his ex-lover, paid lover, because she was unfaithful to him in testifying against him and sleeping with his father.  

And while Tyrion had a lifetime of pent up anger over his father's maltreatment of him and refusal to grant him what Tyrion believed to his birthright, he was largely motivated by payback for his father having exercised control over, and his dismissive attitude toward, the woman he himself had  just killed. Talk about hypocrisy. 

Tyrion was no crusader for women in that moment. He was a bitter, jealous ex. 

So Tyrion should have been understanding that she falsely testified against him, knowing it was sentencing him to death?  IDK, for me if I'm in Tyrion's shoes I'm gonna be salty.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Neither sister is wrong in their feelings about that bedroom.  Both perspectives are valid and understandable to me. 

Yes, but Arya again, isn't there on the wall of WF during,Jon's and Sansas's discussion, and all these emotions are controlling her, not the other way around. Even with Sansa explaining she rejects it out of hand; it's a maturity thing and she's still years behind. 

The writers could of shorten this with: Let's go see Bran.

[Hana Chan]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, but Arya again, isn't there on the wall of WF during,Jon's and Sansas's discussion, and all these emotions are controlling her, not the other way around. Even with Sansa explaining she rejects it out of hand; it's a maturity thing and she's still years behind. 

I'm not holding Arya completely at fault for this because she just doesn't know everything to Sansa since they were last together. And Sansa isn't talking. I don't quite blame Sansa because telling her little sister who she believes thinks badly of her that she spent weeks being raped by Ramsey isn't something that she'd be too eager to revisit again. And I can believe that Arya likely has no idea that Sansa was actually in the hands of the Boltons. 

A lot of this is manufactured drama (with a small d) playing in the background of the really big Drama (with a capital D - the Night King business). Which is why I'm pretty much over it. I'm really hoping that whatever time that's allotted in the next episode for Winterfell is for LF's manipulations to be revealed, his quick and well deserved death and the Starks all on the same page and ready to support Jon. 

[GrailKing]

Yeah the Drama, of LF, but I "Broke" yesterday so I'm trying to keep mum on the game.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, but Arya again, isn't there on the wall of WF during,Jon's and Sansas's discussion, and all these emotions are controlling her, not the other way around. Even with Sansa explaining she rejects it out of hand; it's a maturity thing and she's still years behind. 

The writers could of shorten this with: Let's go see Bran.

I don't understand why the fact Arya wasn't there for a discussion should be chalked up as a character flaw?  I'm not so sure that her rejection of Sansa's explanation is entirely immaturity.  As I said above, family dynamics, even old friend dynamics, take time to change.  I don't think it should be so easily dismissed that the situation is also superfueled with intense grief.  Remember, Jon and Sansa had the opportunity to reacquaint initially outside the emotionally charged minefield of their former home.  IMO the big picture is important if we're going to pick these characters apart and pass judgment on their thoughts and feelings.

I'm not suggesting that Arya is perfect, correct or flawless.  She's hardheaded, brash and has shown rash thinking. We absolutely know she suffered an awful lot for making the definitive choice to be Arya Stark, indicating it meant something incredibly deep to her.  I'm not ready to pass judgment yet, particularly in an episode that for me seemed very compressed and disjointed on most of the storylines.  Is some of it intentional for audience suspense?  I suppose.  Overall I'm  sensing it's more a matter of underestimating how they were going to flesh out a complex storyline to conclusion with so few episodes left.  I wonder all along how many scenes were never presented to the audience that would have given a lot of dynamism to different storylines and characters that might have satisfied the story so much more. 

[Francie]

28 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

So Tyrion should have been understanding that she falsely testified against him, knowing it was sentencing him to death? 

He understood it with Pod. He knew that Pod would be compelled to testify and that, while Cersei had just offered him a carrot at that point, she'd soon be showing him the stick and making him an offer he couldn't refuse. 

But yet, that understanding went right out the window when it came to Shae. He knows that she has no power. He knows, or at least should know, that she has to testify or her life is in danger.  But, still, the understanding that was given to Pod was not given to her. 

And Shae's testimony was unnecessary. Tyrion knew that he was done for already. Jaime knew it, and that's why -- even before Shae's testimony -- Jaime offered up himself for Tyrion's life. So, Shae didn't sentence Tyrion to death. Her testimony was a pile on. An unnecessary pile on that Tywin inflicted to embarrass his son. Tryion would have been convicted without Shae's testimony. It was Tyiron's pride and wounded ego that made him lash out and not take the deal being offered him. 

28 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IDK, for me if I'm in Tyrion's shoes I'm gonna be salty.

Be salty all you want. I get that. I get the attitude. But you're going to murder as well? The act is what I condemn. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Francie
Typos and clarification

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

I don't understand why the fact Arya wasn't there for a discussion should be chalked up as a character flaw?  I'm not so sure that her rejection of Sansa's explanation is entirely immaturity.  As I said above, family dynamics, even old friend dynamics, take time to change.  I don't think it should be so easily dismissed that the situation is also superfueled with intense grief.  Remember, Jon and Sansa had the opportunity to reacquaint initially outside the emotionally charged minefield of their former home.  IMO the big picture is important if we're going to pick these characters apart and pass judgment on their thoughts and feelings.

I'm not suggesting that Arya is perfect, correct or flawless.  She's hardheaded, brash and has shown rash thinking. We absolutely know she suffered an awful lot for making the definitive choice to be Arya Stark, indicating it meant something incredibly deep to her.  I'm not ready to pass judgment yet, particularly in an episode that for me seemed very compressed and disjointed on most of the storylines.  Is some of it intentional for audience suspense?  I suppose.  Overall I'm  sensing it's more a matter of underestimating how they were going to flesh out a complex storyline to conclusion with so few episodes left.  I wonder all along how many scenes were never presented to the audience that would have given a lot of dynamism to different storylines and characters that might have satisfied the story so much more. 

Not saying it's a flaw, it's lack of info that she bases things on, and the description of her as you laid out is still feeding her perceptions, she still sees only Black or White. Even at the inn, her first thought of Hotpie's words telling her she's wrong, is you're lying, until HP reminded her, I'm you're friend why would I lie about that; then she reconsiders and makes what we all wanted a decision to go home.

I don't think not having info you need is a flaw, I do think not considering other's info they give you as a flaw.

[Hana Chan]

I think it's also important to keep in mind that Shae not only testified against Tyrion, but that Tyrion learned that she was fucking his father. I think that he could have understood and forgiven her betrayal in the courtroom since he knows that she could have been forced to testify against him. But to find her in his father's bed, after having very recently been having sex there... that was the breaking point for Tyrion. 

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, Francie said:

He understood it with Pod. He knew that Pod would be compelled to testify and that, while Cersei had just offered him a carrot at that point, she'd soon be showing him the stick nad making him an offer he coudln't refuse. 

But yet, that understanding went right out the window when it came to Shae. He knows that she has no power. He knows that she's got to testify or her life is in danger.  But, still, the understanding that was given to Pod was not given to her. 

And Shae's testimony was unnecessary. Tyrion knew that he was done for already. Jaime knew it, and that's why -- even before Shae's testimony -- Jaime offered up himself for Tyrion's life. So, Shae didn't sentence TYrion to death. Her testimony was a pile on. An unnecessary pile on that Tywin inflicted to embarrass his son. Tryion would have been convicted without Shae's testimony. It was Tyiron's pride and wounded ego that made him lash out and not take the deal being offered him. 

I think that is a very rose colored view of Shae. Tyrion specifically broke up with her to save her life and get her out of danger, which backfired spectacularly cause the way he did it was cruel and she was pissed. There is nothing shown onscreen that she was coerced in anyway to testify, and her testimony was specifically vindictive and bitter. She wanted him to die out of vengeance. She even tries to kill him when he comes across her in Tywins bed. She literally tried to stab him. 

 

Im not justifying Tyrions actions, but I don't think it's fair to whitewash Shae and paint her as fragile little victim of circumstances.( not in this instance anyway...her life itself was definitely tragic and I don't mean to diminish that)

Edited August 18, 2017 by GraceK
Spell check

[Tikichick]

I think often people get confused that the characters have as wide a scope as we do to view what's happening.  It's also a whole lot easier to judge hot blooded, passionate feelings of anger, grief and murder when we're separated from the happenings by the comfortable distance of a screen, all cozy observing from our sofa.  If we're going to actually accept that these are flesh and blood people truly living these events, we have to be prepared to understand their real feelings -- not some sort of ideal that they should be living up to from our vantage point.