A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[KAOS Agent]

Regina did murder a court jester during her birthday party that time. Maybe he came from a family of jesters and someone's out for revenge. Screw forgiveness, embrace murder! 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Regina did murder a court jester during her birthday party that time. Maybe he came from a family of jesters and someone's out for revenge. Screw forgiveness, embrace murder! 

Well, that's okay. Remember, it was probably the jester's fault. It wasn't Regina's fault. She was just misunderstood at the time she killed him.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Well, that's okay. Remember, it was probably the jester's fault. It wasn't Regina's fault. She was just misunderstood at the time she killed him.

Correct. She hadn't crossed the threshold from "villain" to "hero" yet, so she couldn't be held accountable for things like that.

Edited December 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It makes even less sense that Cinderella would go kill the Prince in revenge for killing her stepfather in light of the new information we have about how Marcus wasn't even her biological father. 

This was what Cinderella said at the ball:

"'Cause that "prince" took everything from me. "He killed my father, and I've been locked up sweeping floors ever since."

I suppose she could have loved Marcus as a father, but why would Lady Tremaine be interested in marrying off her daughter to the man who killed her husband?   And even if the Prince killed Marcus, it's Lady Tremaine's fault that she's Locked up and sweeping floors."  If she's so bold and audacious, why doesn't she target Tremaine?  

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I suppose she could have loved Marcus as a father, but why would Lady Tremaine be interested in marrying off her daughter to the man who killed her husband?   And even if the Prince killed Marcus, it's Lady Tremaine's fault that she's Locked up and sweeping floors."  If she's so bold and audacious, why doesn't she target Tremaine?  

Much like why Regina targeted Snow since she was a child, I guess. Both put the direct blame on the people who may have helped cause things to happen, but aren't the ultimate cause of everything bad that happened to them. Regina never really blamed her mother for killing Daniel so she focused all her hate on Snow for many years, even though Snow was a kid who made a mistake. And Ella blamed the Prince for killing her stepfather, which is fine and all, but didn't really blame Tremaine for actually locking her up and treating her horribly. I guess it's also like how Tremaine could have been like Regina if her life goal was to blame Ella for Anastasia's coma/almost death, but the show actually decided to go a slightly different route. 

Heh. I just compared Villain Regina with Murderella. I mean, at least Murderella targeted an actual killer, but the situations are still somewhat similar. 

[Mabinogia]

It would have been nice for the show to have gone the root of Regina and Murderella not blaming the real culprit because they knew they couldn't win in a fight against their evil mothers, so they picked the lowest hanging fruit (a child/some random prince) because they knew they could triumph and feel better about themselves. But they don't seem to have given it that much thought. It is typical for a child who is abused by their parent to then abuse someone else, since they can't fight back against their parent. It could have been an interesting story but once again, it's just not.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I mean, at least Murderella targeted an actual killer

And yet I still prefer Regina. hahahaha (seriously, the only good thing about Murderella is that her nickname here is Murderella)

[KingOfHearts]

Would this season be slightly more palatable if all the returning characters were from the Wish Realm? You'd still have WHook, but perhaps Clone Queen as well. Instead of Rumple, Wish!Robin could tag along for the ride. But, perhaps Weaver comes too, but just dies in 7x04 like we all wanted him to... or, Wish!Rumple teams up with Ivy to use the Dark Curse to get to LWM and find Belle, who is in 2017 Storybrooke. I feel like there are a million better ways to configure the character lineup and give each character a better motivation.

Edited December 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

On 12/26/2017 at 4:33 PM, Mabinogia said:

Isn't it the chalice in the palace that has the brew that is true? Haha, I would love a court jester to come along and poison them all actually. 

They broke the chalice from the palace!  The vessel with the pestle now has the brew that is true.

The Court Jester and The Inspector General are a great cdouble-feature when you're feeling down.

[KAOS Agent]

Expanding on the idea where Henry stumbles upon a new Storybrooke (maybe it's Hyperion Heights). This new town is still the result of Regina's dark curse, only it's from a wishverse wherein Regina wished that Emma would never be born. This allows for all the returning characters to exist, but in a different way and would also let the writers continue with the copy/paste thing they've got going on from S1. Emma would have been completely erased, David could be dead/comatose and Snow could be locked up under the hospital never to be seen unless Ginny wanted to guest for an episode. Let's see Regina return to her Mayor Mills days. Rumpel to his wily ways and Hook could be more pirate and less puppy. New characters could still be slotted in easily for Henry to meet and no one would be struggling with this stupid timeline nonsense wondering why no one had aged because the new town was still cursed.

There were a lot of different ways they could have gone that would fit the limitations they were facing this season due to exiting cast, reduced budget and shortness of ideas.  It's really not that difficult to recreate S1 and still make enough changes to keep it interesting while introducing a new cast that could bridge into further seasons. Regina could be really defeated and jailed at the end of S7, Rumpel could be killed and/or leave to scheme to find some way to go back in time and save Bae, Hook wouldn't have any ties to the town and could easily want to leave with his crew on the Jolly Roger once the curse broke. 

Quote

They broke the chalice from the palace!  The vessel with the pestle now has the brew that is true.

I always wondered how the vessel with the pestle went from being poisoned to being true when the chalice from the palace broke. Did they dump its contents for unknown reasons? Why not just let the flagon with the dragon be the brew that is true? 

[Mabinogia]

I'm still bitter that the broke the chalice from the palace. That was a family heirloom dammit! But I'm sure that Rumple took the pellet with the poison out of the flagon with the dragon and slipped it into the vessel with the pestle. He only said the vessel with the pestle had the brew that is true so his enemy would drink it. Alas, is enemy managed to switch the two drinks, because only a great fool would drink from the glass he had been given. And now the battle of wits has begun!

[KAOS Agent]

I'm sure Rumpel has also been responsible for someone getting involved in a land war in Asia. This show would suddenly become awesome again if Rumpel ultimately dies when his constant inference backfires on him and then his foe revealed himself to be a Sicilian. 

[jhlipton]

On 12/28/2017 at 5:30 PM, KAOS Agent said:

it's from a wishverse wherein Regina wished that Emma would never be born.

 

I always wondered how the vessel with the pestle went from being poisoned to being true when the chalice from the palace broke. Did they dump its contents for unknown reasons? Why not just let the flagon with the dragon be the brew that is true? 

And a crew of vampires, led by The Master, round up the humans to be used as feeding tubes...

Looking back on the script, and realizing that no one drank anything, I think either Griselda or whoever gave her the cups got confused themselves!

On 12/28/2017 at 9:54 PM, KAOS Agent said:

 his foe revealed himself to be a Sicilian. 

But recall what happened to the Sicillian...

Edited January 5, 2018 by jhlipton

[Mabinogia]

Things that would improve this season:

1. The cast just decide to give up on the script and start making shit up
2. We find out this is all Henry's crappy book sequel and the season ends with his publisher telling him never to write another book again
3. Jacinda dies and the townspeople rejoice
4. A Jonestown style mass suicide happens.
5. Robert Carlyle breaks character, turns to the camera and just reads the script in his beautiful accent
6. Colin O'Donoghue breaks character, turns to the camera and just reads the script in his beautiful accent
7. The entire cast throw up their hands in defeat and beat A&E with their terrible scripts
8. ABC decides to get nostalgic and replaces the show with that old color blocked test pattern they used to use after the broadcast day had ended.

[Shanna Marie]

On 12/27/2017 at 2:08 AM, Camera One said:

I suppose she could have loved Marcus as a father, but why would Lady Tremaine be interested in marrying off her daughter to the man who killed her husband?   And even if the Prince killed Marcus, it's Lady Tremaine's fault that she's Locked up and sweeping floors."  If she's so bold and audacious, why doesn't she target Tremaine?  

I got the impression that the prince was carrying out a hit for Lady Tremaine, and she was mad because Marcus saved Ella and not Anastasia. I haven't rewatched the premiere, but wasn't she mad at the prince because he wanted to marry the wrong daughter? But the right daughter was dead/in stasis as a preteen. I'd think it was pretty obvious that he wouldn't be marrying Murderella, since she came upon them when Ella was about to kill him.

But, really, none of this makes a lot of sense to create the Cinderella story if you look at it in chronological order. We also don't have any reason why Drizella was a wicked stepsister to Ella. She and Ella seemed to be close in the flashbacks, and if anything, they'd have had common ground in being wary of Rapunzel when she returned and in not being the favored child of Rapunzel. It would have been Drizella and Ella vs. Lady Tremaine, especially after Marcus was killed. Why would Lady Tremaine have favored Drizella over Ella if she hated her and thought she wasn't a real daughter and if she wished Drizella or Ella had died instead of Anastasia? Wouldn't both of them have been treated like servants?

A lot of the problem of the Cinderella reboot is that we got even less "Cinderella" content in this round, when it's supposedly the central story covering multiple episodes, than we got when it was handled in one episode that was only tangentially about Cinderella. We've yet to see Ella in true Cinderella mode. We've never seen a flashback showing Lady Tremaine as wicked stepmother making her work and doting on her spoiled daughter (which it turns out she didn't do since she hated her daughter, too). We didn't see Ella trying to get to the ball. Would Lady Tremaine have tried to stop her from going to the ball if she planned to kill the prince and frame Murderella for it? Ella wouldn't have needed a fairy godmother, but would a fairy godmother have helped her go to a ball so she could murder someone? The glass slipper only came into play as a clue for Henry, but he didn't have to search for her.

At some point, you're no longer telling a story with a twist. You're just writing a new story using the same character names.

ETA: I just remembered, it was the wrong prince, not the wrong daughter. She wanted the other prince to marry Drizella, and Drizella then killed that prince. Or something like that. I haven't rewatched any of the episodes from this season the way I used to. In part because of less interest, but in part because on Sundays the local news ends at 6 and I had an hour to kill before Once came on, so rewatching the previous episode was a good fit. Now there's only half an hour between the local news and Once coming on, so not enough time to watch the whole episode, and that's on weeks when I'm actually home on Friday.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Shanna Marie

[Camera One]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

We didn't see Ella trying to get to the ball. Would Lady Tremaine have tried to stop her from going to the ball if she planned to kill the prince and frame Murderella for it?

We were given the impression in the premiere that Lady Tremaine told Ella what the Prince did and intended for her to kill him.  But if that's the case, as you said, why would Tremaine have tried to stop her from being at the ball?  Tremaine also seemed to have planned to steal the Fairy Godmother's wand. 

So somehow Tremaine knew Ella would want to kill the Prince, so she pretended to stop her from going to the ball so the Fairy Godmother would come to help her, so she could capture the Fairy Godmother to get her wand, and so she could frame Cinderella for the Prince's murder?  The most convoluted plan ever with a hundred different uncontrollable variables.  Which we don't need to see, because filling in the blanks - fun!

I'm guessing the depth to which The Writers thought about this would be - Henry meets Cinders in the blue dress going to the ball (best meet cute ever!), Tremaine boldly and audaciously murders the Fairy Godmother (shocking!), and it turns out Cinders didn't want to marry the Prince - she wanted to kill him (shocking!  strong feminist character!) = lots and lots of new fans.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Camera One

[daxx]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm guessing the depth to which The Writers thought about this would be - Henry meets Cinders in the blue dress going to the ball (best meet cute ever!), Tremaine boldly and audaciously murders the Fairy Godmother (shocking!), and it turns out Cinders didn't want to marry the Prince - she wanted to kill him (shocking!  strong feminist character!) = lots and lots of new fans.

This is sadly, exactly the amount of thought put into it.

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

So somehow Tremaine knew Ella would want to kill the Prince, so she pretended to stop her from going to the ball so the Fairy Godmother would come to help her, so she could capture the Fairy Godmother to get her wand, and so she could frame Cinderella for the Prince's murder?  The most convoluted plan ever with a hundred different uncontrollable variables.  Which we don't need to see, because filling in the blanks - fun!

Her and Rumple should get together and write a book. "The 101 most convoluted ways to accomplish very simple tasks". It could include a plot to brainwash an entire village into thinking they are chimps so that one of the chimps will run off with a gorilla from the neighboring village (also under a curse), because their love is forbidden, and discover a cave in which resides a hermit who makes the best chocolate chip cookies in the universe. The hermit will run from the cave to avoid the chimprilla lovin' and be captured and put to work as the royal cookie maker. And that is how you get the best cookies ever. 

Want to ask a girl, or guy, out? First you have to find the blood of a virgin, killing said version is optional but fear not, the moron good guys will just forgive you since you are on a quest for true love. Then you have to drop the blood onto the horn of a unicorn, they don't exist, but in chapter three we will teach you how to create a unicorn of your very own using a pickaxe, some dental floss and a very obese hamster. Once you have a blood soaked unicorn horn, bring it to a tower. Bury it beside the tower. In 15-20 years it will grow into an enchanted rose. Take this rose and bring it to your beloved. If they haven't found someone better to date in the last decade or two, they may fall under the spell of the rose and agree to go out with you. Whatever you do, don't tell them what you did to get the date, they may die of laughter and the date will end prematurely.

[Shanna Marie]

Nah, I still think the most convoluted plan has to be the Black Fairy's: She needs to fight the Final Battle with the Savior, but can't because of where she's trapped. So she steals baby Gideon, brings him up as a slave in her dark realm where he ages 28 years in a few weeks, takes his heart, and sends him to Storybrooke, where he fights a battle with Emma, loses, then Emma and Hook conveniently have a fight, Hook goes to Nemo for counsel, and Gideon sends Hook away on the Nautilus so that Emma will think he abandoned her, then Gideon impersonates a bartender and opens a bar and puts out fliers for cheap drinks so that Emma and her friends will have a girls' night out to help Emma get over Hook, then Gideon can play the sympathetic bartender to get a tear from the Savior that he can use for the magic to keep Hook from getting back to Storybrooke, and Gideon can lure Emma into a trap that will use her life essence as she dies to open a portal between worlds that will allow the Black Fairy to come to Storybrooke to fight the Final Battle with the Savior (who died for her to get there?). And all of this was done Because Prophecy, but the Black Fairy never actually fought anything like a Final Battle with Emma. The final battle was with Gideon.

My favorite part is the opening a bar as a way of getting Savior tears. Because that's the most obvious and foolproof plan. There's so much "if" coming off that plot, it's funny. It depends on Hook and Emma having a big fight, Hook going to the Nautilus, Emma believing he really would abandon her, Emma going on a girls' night out at that particular bar (rather than to Granny's, where they always go) to cope, and Emma pouring out her soul to a bartender she's never met before.

[Mabinogia]

I tuned out about half an episode into the Black Fairy so I sadly or not sadly missed all that. Is there some sort of subversive villain school that teaches these villains the most precarious evil plots possible, in the hopes they won't succeed because so much of their plans depend on a lot of coincidences happening, which means that there is a far more powerful dark force at work here, making sure all those coincidences do happen so the villains can triumph. Who is in charge of such destiny? That would have to be the Author. Ergo, Henry is the Supreme Evil! Muahahahaaa

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Who is in charge of such destiny?

Tune in to Season 8 to find out how Emperor Palpatine has been pulling the strings all long from a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and why he was so misunderstood.

[Mabinogia]

29 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Tune in to Season 8 to find out how Emperor Palpatine has been pulling the strings all long from a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and why he was so misunderstood.

But in Season 9 we find out it was really his evil twin Emperor Ovaltine of the alternate galaxy even father and farther away who always resented that Palpatine got a baby Porg for their fifth birthday when all Ovaltine got was whatever the fuck JarJar was. Once we all hear this, we understand Ovaltine's wrath and cheer him to victory over poor little Palpatine, who was a moron and forgave Ovaltine after the first fifteen times he tried to kill him. 

[Camera One]

I was thinking about Henry going to San Francisco.  It was a classic case of clunky plot machinations.  Henry added nothing to Roni meeting up with Zelena, except giving her someone to talk to before Zelena "woke".  So the main reason they had him go was to get him out of the way, as if his absence would have made it more likely that Jacinda would kiss Nick, as part of Victoria's evil plan.  Or maybe the Writers thought Henry rushing back to Hyperion Heights to support Lucy and Jacinda at the hospital was supposed to show how much he cared?  

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Or maybe the Writers thought Henry rushing back to Hyperion Heights to support Lucy and Jacinda at the hospital was supposed to show how much he cared?  

I still don't get why she even called him. I guess that was supposed to show how close they have become? It's like the Cliffs Notes version of a romance. Once upon a time there were two people. He worked on her food truck that isn't really a food truck but...magic. They went on a date (I don't remember actually seeing this happen, but I'm jumping off the cliff of assumption on this one, or it was just so boring I removed it from my mind to make room for important things like, anything else. If so, please don't remind me. Ignorance is, indeed, bliss). Her daughter got sick so she called him from another state to come to her. He did. They are in true love. The end. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think these writers realize that it would be infinitely more interesting for the characters come to believe on their own without the use of magic. It would be more fun to watch Cursed!Henry confronted with magical shenanigans, since he is a "real" person from the "real" world. That was what made Emma so entertaining in the first few seasons - her earthly background contrasting with her fairy tale heritage. The chipped cup totems and memory potions are lame. What's the point of introducing a problem then instantly solving it with an easy solution?

Edited January 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking about Henry going to San Francisco.  It was a classic case of clunky plot machinations.  Henry added nothing to Roni meeting up with Zelena, except giving her someone to talk to before Zelena "woke".  So the main reason they had him go was to get him out of the way, as if his absence would have made it more likely that Jacinda would kiss Nick, as part of Victoria's evil plan.  Or maybe the Writers thought Henry rushing back to Hyperion Heights to support Lucy and Jacinda at the hospital was supposed to show how much he cared?  

Then there was Regina, who a few episodes earlier started doing everything she could to keep him away from Jacinda, urging him to fly back to Seattle, to do what? She took him to San Francisco to keep him away from Jacinda, so why send him back to what would likely be an intense emotional situation?

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't think these writers realize that it would be infinitely more interesting for the characters come to believe on their own without the use of magic.

Or to have seen how Lucy came to her conclusions, and her interacting with these people like they're fairytale characters, like season one Henry suggesting jobs for Ruby that involved carrying things in baskets. I can't believe they haven't used the fact that Rogers isn't the Hook from Henry's book to create a fun misunderstanding -- like Lucy actually figures out the clues, deciding that Rogers has to be Captain Hook, based on the missing hand, British accent, the name "Rogers" and possibly his similarity to illustrations in the book (though it seems that the only illustrations we've seen are of Emma, conveniently), and she assumes he's the one who married Emma and was Henry's stepfather, so she keeps trying to arrange for him to hang out with Henry, thinking she's getting father and son together, not knowing that she's interfering with his relationship with his actual daughter.

But doing it the least interesting way isn't new. Remember 3B, when we were anticipating Henry figuring it all out on his own and coming to believe again that way, and instead all they did was have him touch a book, and that solved everything?

[Camera One]

23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Then there was Regina, who a few episodes earlier started doing everything she could to keep him away from Jacinda, urging him to fly back to Seattle, to do what? She took him to San Francisco to keep him away from Jacinda, so why send him back to what would likely be an intense emotional situation?

Yes, that made zero sense.  As usual, the characters are so inconsistent they do 180's from one episode to the next.  For all Regina knew, Henry and Jacinda could TLK over their shared worry for Lucy and he would die, while she was off in a different city unable to help.  There is no fathomable reason why Regina would encourage him to go, and their actual flashbacks from this episode made her actions in the present-day even more ridiculous.

The minute Regina/Rumple awoke, they should have alerted Victoria what really happened, given what we now know.  The key thing was to keep Gothel imprisoned, since Drizella couldn't do anything on her own.  

Edited January 1, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The minute Regina/Rumple awoke, they should have alerted Victoria what really happened, given what we now know. 

Yeah, especially since it looks like Rapunzel Tremaine was working with Regina and company before Drizella's curse. Regina should have known she was an ally, and she could have told Victoria that Drizella was behind the curse and planned to use it to wake and kill Anastasia. At the time of the curse they seem to have been allies, so why not talk to her? Weaver made a halfhearted attempt to stop Rogers from finding Gothel, but it didn't seem like he was working with any urgency.

[KingOfHearts]

The writers have an infinite multiverse with the rights to hundreds of famous characters at their disposal. Yet, they decide to use characters we've already seen before. Other than Tiana, her mom, and Dr. Facilier, none of the characters are particularly true to their original recipes. It doesn't matter that Weaver is Rumplestiltskin, Regina used to be the Evil Queen, WHook was once Captain Hook, or that Zelena is getting over a habit of turning people into flying monkeys. Why have them as famous fairy tale characters at all? There's zero relevance.

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers have an infinite multiverse with the rights to hundreds of famous characters at their disposal. Yet, they decide to use characters we've already seen before. Other than Tiana, her mom, and Dr. Facilier, none of the characters are particularly true to their original recipes. It doesn't matter that Weaver is Rumplestiltskin, Regina used to be the Evil Queen, WHook was once Captain Hook, or that Zelena is getting over a habit of turning people into flying monkeys. Why have them as famous fairy tale characters at all? There's zero relevance.

I honestlythink they don't really like their subject matter.  Its never made any sense that they didn't get into the nittty gritty details of each fairy tale they were using and use them as a jumping off point to do something fun with them.

It just seems like using characters we've seen before allows them not to put in any effort at all.  Now they have this different books are different thing to make them feel like their laziness is the height of creativity.

I never had any hope that they would play off the different versions of fairy tales, but even then, I'm still kind of annoyed that they didn't decide to compare contrast the version of Sleeping Beauty from earlier seasons with the one where Happily Ever After includes a mother in law that is an Ogre who tries to eat Sleeping Beauty and the grandkids. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

58 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I honestly think they don't really like their subject matter.  Its never made any sense that they didn't get into the nittty gritty details of each fairy tale they were using and use them as a jumping off point to do something fun with them.

A Writers' Room where everyone loved fairy tales and folktales and classic stories could function where everyone would come to the table with different variations of a particular story (different authors, different cultures, etc.), and then they hash out character arcs that could be organically paralleled with their cast of main characters.  They might discuss stories with similar themes or fictional characters with opposing motivations to propose interesting mash-ups.  

Instead, it's let's "do" Rapunzel.  Did everyone watch the Disney movie?  Okay, it looks like 4 out of 8 watched the trailer and a clip or two from Youtube, good enough.   Long hair, check.  Tower, check.  Mother Gothel, check.  Disney Easter Egg lanterns, check.   Now, let's make Rapunzel grow up to be Lady Tremaine because we have to tie Rapunzel into Cinderella somehow.  And Mother Gothel works with Drizella and knows Rumple's secret and raped Whook.  What a mash-up!  

Edited January 2, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Instead, it's let's "do" Rapunzel.  Did everyone watch the Disney movie?  Okay, it looks like 4 out of 8 watched the trailer and a clip or two from Youtube, good enough.   Long hair, check.  Tower, check.  Mother Gothel, check.  Disney Easter Egg lanterns, check.   Now, let's make Rapunzel grow up to be Lady Tremaine because we have to tie Rapunzel into Cinderella somehow.  And Mother Gothel works with Drizella and knows Rumple's secret and raped Whook.  What a mash-up!  

Mash-ups need to be wish fulfillment to really engage the audience, e.g. Team Princess, Elsa/Emma friendship, Queens of Darkness, the Underworld citizens. Nobody wants to tie in Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Cinderella, and Rapunzel via crazy rapist.

Edited January 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Nobody wants to tie in Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Cinderella, and Rapunzel via crazy rapist.

I was going to say that I kind of like the idea of Captain Hook being Alice in Wonderland's father, but then it occurred to me that this entirely misses the point of Alice in Wonderland. Her whole thing was that she was bored with ordinary stuff and wanted a more interesting world. I thought that Once Upon a Time in Wonderland caught that, where she found the wonderland and then her family was so mired in mundanity that they couldn't believe what she'd experienced, so that she wanted to go back and find evidence. An Alice who was born of a witch and Captain Hook in Rapunzel's tower in a magical land has absolutely nothing to do with the source story.

[Camera One]

This Alice is also in-name-only.  I guess A&E might argue they did a switcharoo and made Alice the loopy one instead of the rest of the Wonderland characters.  Though we have no idea why Alice acted the way she did when she was first introduced.  Why didn't they pick some other random fairytale/literary/Disney character to be Whook's daughter?  It would have made zero difference.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

That in-name-only thing is one of the bigger weakness of the reboot. They're so far from the fairy tales that it doesn't really feel like a fairy tale show. Compare to the 1.0 setup. They did throw in some twists to the Snow White story -- Bandit Snow, the Evil Queen having a reason other than just envy over beauty for hating Snow, Snow's friendships with other fairy tale characters, Snow and Prince Charming already being in love before the poison apple, Prince Charming not really being a prince -- but we also saw all the important parts of the Snow White story. There was the Evil Queen and a magic mirror, envy was still an issue (a lot of the reason Regina hated Snow was because other people loved Snow, which Regina didn't understand because how could they love a murderer), the huntsman was sent to kill Snow but let her go and used an animal heart, Snow lived with the dwarfs, there was a poison apple, there was a glass coffin, and there was the True Love's Kiss (from the Disney version rather than the fairy tale, but it's part of the public perception of the story). It was still the Snow White story, just with bonus stuff. When they did a twist that went away from the original story, like with Red Riding Hood, they still fit in the key parts of the story, like the red cape and the wolf. They just made the literal metaphorical, with the wolf tempting Red being inside herself.

Compare that to 2.0, where we haven't seen any of the key parts of the Cinderella story play out. We're told that Ella was made a slave, but we've never seen her in rags, scrubbing the floor. Making her Marcus's stepdaughter changes the whole story because she's not even really being made a slave in her own home. Rapunzel earned that home through her imprisonment, and Drizella is Marcus's biological daughter. One thing the live-action version did well was explain why Cinderella stuck around and put up with it: it was her home, and she looked at it as taking care of her own home. This Ella doesn't really have ties there. Why didn't she leave sooner? We've never really seen the ugly stepsister relationship. In the past flashbacks, the girls were all friends and were close, and Anastasia even died saving Ella's life. We never saw Ella with the fairy godmother. We didn't see her rags turned into a ballgown, didn't see a pumpkin turned into a coach. I guess they didn't turn mice into horses and a horse into a coachman (or was it a dog?) because she was driving the coach herself. There was no midnight deadline. Henry didn't return to the crash site to find a smashed pumpkin instead of a coach, and we saw Cinderella's dress hanging in the resistance camp, so it didn't turn back to rags. About the only things from the original story were the glass slipper left behind as a clue and the ball. Basically, this "Cinderella" is like one of those boxed Halloween costumes from the 70s, with a plastic max and a nylon apron-type thing that said "Cinderella" on the front.

And this is true for all the characters. We've mentioned how Alice and Tiana's versions here miss the point of their stories entirely by making Alice from a magical world and Tiana a princess to begin with. Rapunzel was in a tower, but that missed the whole warped "mother"/"daughter" relationship that the story's all about, and there was never a "let down your hair." True, the 1.0 version got pretty bad about that, too, starting with a "Robin Hood" with nothing in common with the stories other than living in the woods and using a bow and reaching a peak in season 6's parade of characters who were unrecognizable from their source material, but at least everything was still grounded in some of the original stories. We may have griped about how often we saw the "Hook was evil in the past" and the "Regina vs. Snow, round 4587392" flashbacks, but at least they served to ground the show in a reminder of the stories and allowed it to still feel like a fairy tale show. In 2.0, even the originals are nothing like their storybook selves. There's no Evil Queen left in Regina, WHook just has a hook and a costume that's utterly inappropriate to his character, and who knows what the hell is going on with Rumple. The closest they've come to the source material is Tiana's cursed identity wanting to open a restaurant.

Actually, that might have been an interesting twist for the reboot, if they were just people in a fairytale-like land, maybe living out stories we've never heard of because they haven't been told yet in our world, so they have some fairy tale tropes, but they aren't a specific story, and the curse put them into fairytale situations that fit into Hyperion Heights. So, random girl in the Disenchanted Forest is made to be the stepdaughter of a socialite, who forces her to act like a servant while she promotes her own daughters to marry money. Other random girl is a foreign exchange student who got lost from her tour group and fell in with strange people, seeing what amounts to a strange and wonderful new land. Etc. Our returning original characters who've changed beyond their original characterizations might be pushed into old forms, but in a way that fits the world. So Regina is the Devil Wears Prada type businesswoman. Rumple is an underworld crime boss who makes deals and can pull strings, but there's always a cost. Hook is a corporate raider who acquires companies and pillages them. Henry (or Lucy, if we absolutely have to have her) figures it all out by recognizing the stories being played out.

[Camera One]

Well said. 

I have a question... why did Gothel need 8 years to prepare the Dark Curse and/or un-stone Drizella?   

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I have a question... why did Gothel need 8 years to prepare the Dark Curse and/or un-stone Drizella?   

The stars in the hat didn't align with the stars in the sky until then. 

[Camera One]

25 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The stars in the hat didn't align with the stars in the sky until then. 

LOL.  I wonder if they will reveal who made the "prophesy". 

[Rumsy4]

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I wonder if they will reveal who made the "prophesy". 

It will be revealed as Mary Poppins in Season 8. She is Rumple's grandmother (we were off in our predictions by a generation), and the Final(est) Villain of the Final(est) Battle (for realsies this time).

[Camera One]

Was Regina teaching Drizella magic a total moot point?  Since if she hadn't, Gothel would have anyway.

The Tower was in walking distance to where the Tremaine's lived, but no one wondered why the Tower was suddenly there, or if anyone was trapped up there?  No one looked for Rapunzel there?  Wouldn't it be obvious what happened to her if she was trepassing onto a field where people venture to steal magic plants from a witch?  Why didn't Gothel test out Tiana as the Guardian?  

Marcus was the Anti-I Will Always Find You x 2.

Cinderella acted like it was a huge shameful secret how Anastasia died.  In "The Garden of Idiotic Paths", Cinderella asks Tremaine in the flashback, "Will there never be a time where I've suffered enough for what I did?"  That makes zero sense.  She never "did" anything.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Cinderella acted like it was a huge shameful secret how Anastasia died.  In "The Garden of Idiotic Paths", Cinderella asks Tremaine in the flashback, "Will there never be a time where I've suffered enough for what I did?"  That makes zero sense.  She never "did" anything.

Yeah. It's not like she told a secret or anything. If she had, there really never would be a time where she'd suffer enough for it.

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

"Will there never be a time where I've suffered enough for what I did?"  That makes zero sense.  She never "did" anything.

But that's just it! She did NOTHING! Sure she was a child, but we all know that is no excuse. She should have found a way to save Anastasia. She should have sacrificed herself to save Anastasia the Pure and Good. Come on Cinders, how freaking selfish can you be!?!?!! (this show has some really, really screwed up ideas about right and wrong)

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

But that's just it! She did NOTHING! Sure she was a child, but we all know that is no excuse. She should have found a way to save Anastasia. She should have sacrificed herself to save Anastasia the Pure and Good. Come on Cinders, how freaking selfish can you be!?!?!! (this show has some really, really screwed up ideas about right and wrong)

A&E love placing the blame on innocent children and hold them accountable for things that happened before they're of age, while adult villains get the "oh poor you" treatment and get forgiven by everyone very quickly. 

See: Regina, most likely Lady Tremaine, Rumple, etc. 

I will never not be annoyed with what they attempted with Snow back in season 2 when she killed Cora and A&E pretended that it was the most evil thing ever. 

But yeah, I may not like Murderella, and I joke about her nickname, but she did nothing to Anastasia. Like...she was a kid. They both went out on the ice. They both fell in. What, does the show expect kid Cinderella to have saved herself and then heroically saved Anastasia? Did the show expected Cinderella to have foreseen the accident and pushed Anastasia out of the way to sacrifice herself? Like...what the hell. 

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I will never not be annoyed with what they attempted with Snow back in season 2 when she killed Cora and A&E pretended that it was the most evil thing ever. 

I HATED that they made it seem like Snow was some kind of monster. Cora was the monster. I get making Snow feel remorse, because that is who Snow is, she would feel bad about killing someone even if they were threatening to kill her, I mean, she became besties with Regina who did try to kill her... often. But beyond making her feel some regret, no, nope, she did nothing wrong. Cora deserved to die. This is a woman who destroyed her own daughter for her personal revenge.

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

What, does the show expect kid Cinderella to have saved herself and then heroically saved Anastasia? Did the show expected Cinderella to have foreseen the accident and pushed Anastasia out of the way to sacrifice herself? Like...what the hell. 

Hmm, they must think that Cinders forced Ana to go out on the ice with her, then drilled some strategic holes in the ice so that when Ana stood in just the right spot the ice would crack and Ana would fall in, though I can't remember, who fell in first? Maybe Cinders threw herself in knowing sweet Ana would try to save her, then pulled her under. When Daddy came to the rescue, Cinders pushed Ana deeper underwater so Daddy couldn't find her. Because at ten or so our heroine was already a psychopath?

The thing is, this is the nice version of Rapunzel who is blaming a child for an accident. OMG it is Regina all over again. Because Regina was still decent when she blamed Snow. She hadn't yet turned evil. So maybe blaming a child is the turning point for villains. It's their initiation. Hmm, I wonder what child Rumple blamed...oh, right, Bael. So who will be the child Gothel blamed when she turned evil? Maybe a young Alice killed all Gothel's flowers when she went running after the White Rabbit?

I can just see the evil villain club meetings now. "Hello Druzilla, have you blamed a child for ruining everything today?" "Not yet but..." "GET OUT! And don't come back until you blame Lucy for ruining your life somehow!"

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Cora was the monster.

Yet Cora got her heavenly send-off and Aunt Em is damned in the River of Lost Souls...

[Rumsy4]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Making her Marcus's stepdaughter changes the whole story because she's not even really being made a slave in her own home. Rapunzel earned that home through her imprisonment, and Drizella is Marcus's biological daughter.

Exactly. In the fairy tale versions, Cinderella's father marries the wicked step-mother, who brings her two daughters (named Drizella and Anastasia in some versions) into the family with her. But in this case, Drizella is Marcus's biological daughter, while Cinderella is his step-daughter. And instead of having chosen his second spouse unwisely, his True Love was apparently his second wife, and it was his first wife who turned into a psychopathic murderess. And added to that, Cinderella's wicked step-mother was originally Rapunzel, whose hair grew super-long for no discernible reason. A&E may think these are all a brilliant twists, but there is simply no purpose to it all, except to make everything super-convoluted. 

[Mabinogia]

57 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Yet Cora got her heavenly send-off and Aunt Em is damned in the River of Lost Souls...

The rage...it burns!

[Rumsy4]

Dungey hasn't entirely shot down the possibility of ONCE renewal. Apparently, A&E haven't brought their pitch for the new season yet.

Quote

Eddy [Kitsis] and Adam [Horowitz] are going to be coming in shortly to talk with us about what they would want to be doing if they had another season

Now, let's see. If A&E even remotely think there's a chance for renewal, they'll quickly wrap up the half-assed arcs of 7A and try to set up the storyline for season 8. If A&E manage to keep Robert Carlyle for yet another season, the Season 7 finale will feature Rumple spectacularly backsliding on wanting to reunite with Belle, and betray everyone. Season 8 will feature Gideon's return, and him as Rumple's motivation to turn back from evil. Lana, of course, will stay. Maybe A&E will bring back Wish!Regina to bring Bold and Audacious back. Colin might decide to stick with the Show and keep a steady job. Ugh...I hope he somehow manages to find a better role in a different show. He's too good for this dreck. 

[Kktjones]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Colin might decide to stick with the Show and keep a steady job. Ugh...I hope he somehow manages to find a better role in a different show. He's too good for this dreck. 

I have a sinking feeling he will stay with this show to the very end. It would be very difficult for him to line something else up while shooting Once full-time. I do think they have realized that the Hook/Alice storyline is one of the more popular ones and I'm guessing it will continue into S8. Just makes me even happier that the real Killian is back in SB with Emma and their children (it's been like 10 years, so I'm guessing they've had like half a dozen by now). I think Robert already has his next project lined up, so I do think they'll wrap Rumple's story up this season either way. Who knows about Regina and Zelena - sounds like they will be getting a lot of the focus in 7B. 

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

It would be very difficult for him to line something else up while shooting Once full-time.

That's what I'm worried about. I think Pilot season is over. Besides, a bird in one hand and all that... Even though Colin is a fine actor, I just don't think he has popular appeal. He has done a lot of indie projects in-between shooting for ONCE, which was smart of him. I think his best bet is to get booked into another long-running drama or cop-show. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Souris]

38 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's what I'm worried about. I think Pilot season is over. Besides, a bird in one hand and all that... Even though Colin is a fine actor, I just don't think he has popular appeal. He has done a lot of indie projects in-between shooting for ONCE, which was smart of him. I think his best bet is to get booked into another long-running drama or cop-show. 

If he's lucky and ABC wants to hold onto him regardless of what happens with Once (which they should), ABC will have a project in mind that he could join. Even something they could slide him into where his character isn't heavy in the pilot but would be going forward (thinking kind of like Vaughn in the "Alias" pilot) -- or something for midseason he could do if Once is canceled.

I do think he'll stick with the show til the end.