A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[jhlipton]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I sort of made a pun there and didn't realize it. I'm disappointed in myself for not seeing it!

As well you should be!

[KingOfHearts]

The Blind Witch was very underrated. "Do you like children or gingerbread? Just kidding. Although the gingerbread isn't half bad." The Underworld is infinitely more interesting than Storybrooke, not because it's the land of the dead, but because there's more atmosphere. While the Blind Witch wasn't very deep, she conveyed humor and exposition for the worldbuilding. And in the end, she played a small role in the climax. She may be a side character no one cares about, but she's an entertaining side character no one cares about. The writers took her bit role in S1 and broadened it every so slightly. That's what's missing from Storybrooke. The side characters are not that great or alive. Granny is never funny, the dwarves are just yesmen for the Charmings, and Archie is kidnap bait. Blue is only there to be cryptic, and August is... well, August. At least in the Underworld, we had the witch, Cruella, James, and the random guest characters to keep things fresh.

Oddly enough, I'd say 5B is probably the closest arc to S1. The pace is much quicker because it's half the episodes in length, but the basic story is similar. "Small town is tyrannized by evil dictator and the residents all live fake lives. Heroes must help them get their happy endings/move on and stop evil dictator". 3A isn't that far off either, but there was less worldbuilding, the location was squandered, and the side characters really didn't matter. 5B didn't just transplant the main characters. You had them directly interacting with their environment. In Neverland, you could have plopped them anywhere to defeat Pan. Heck, they ultimately achieved their goal back in Storybrooke anyway. In the Underworld, the characters were more emotionally invested in the side quests they could complete at that location.

While Camelot had an interesting story, it had very little relevance to the main characters. Their only real connection was Lancelot.

Edited September 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 9/4/2017 at 7:40 PM, Camera One said:

They obviously did that to make fans who miss him feel better (even though it doesn't) and to convince them they cared about the character (when they never demonstrated they did).

More like they wanted the fans to stop criticizing them. I doubt they care how the fans feel. They just don't want to be criticized.

On 9/4/2017 at 7:40 PM, Camera One said:

Given what we now know about A&E, it's not a surprise at all that they were more interested in Hook.  He's an ex-villain with sassy one-liners and has "bad boy" appeal but puppy dog eyes.  They always prefer writing redemption stories.  Given their disinterest in writing ordinary life, why would they be interested in Neal's backstory after Neverland?

Really, Neal should have had a redemption story. He may not have been evil on the same level as Hook, Regina, or Rumple, but he was a career criminal who horribly betrayed Emma. They could have given him the bad boy being redeemed treatment. His story even could have somewhat paralleled Hook's, in that he was a good person whose life was thrown into an uproar when he was betrayed, and he ended up on the wrong path, until having Emma (back) in his life got him on the right track again. We don't know when he went wrong, whether he became bitter and cynical in Neverland and carried that over into our world or whether he became a criminal to survive upon returning to our world, and we don't know whether he was scared straight by what he did to Emma or whether he continued being something of a criminal (he should have still been a wanted man, considering that they knew he was the one who stole the watches -- they only found one of them on Emma). So there was room for them to have done the redemption story, as well as dealing with his various relationships. Instead, they gave him a Regina kind of redemption, whitewashing his past misdeeds ("I had no choice!") and having the people who had reason to be upset with him suddenly declare him a beloved hero instead of them actually dealing with the conflicts that were there.

[Camera One]

59 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Blind Witch was very underrated. "Do you like children or gingerbread? Just kidding. Although the gingerbread isn't half bad." The Underworld is infinitely more interesting than Storybrooke, not because it's the land of the dead, but because there's more atmosphere. While the Blind Witch wasn't very deep, she conveyed humor and exposition for the worldbuilding. And in the end, she played a small role in the climax. She may be a side character no one cares about, but she's an entertaining side character no one cares about. The writers took her bit role in S1 and broadened it every so slightly. That's what's missing from Storybrooke. The side characters are not that great or alive. Granny is never funny, the dwarves are just yesmen for the Charmings, and Archie is kidnap bait. Blue is only there to be cryptic, and August is... well, August. At least in the Underworld, we had the witch, Cruella, James, and the random guest characters to keep things fresh.

I definitely agree about the Underworld, but I do find Granny very funny (and Grumpy at times).  But how much difference can that make when they gets one line every 2-3 episodes?  Plus it's been six seasons, and they've been given nothing *new* to do.  After six seasons, the Blind Witch would be as stale as gingerbread from last Christmas as well (plus she gets to be much more flamboyant.  Ditto for Cruella).  

The problem, as usual, is not Storybrooke, but the (stagancy of) writing and development of it.  Shows with better writers, can make a small town a character in itself ("Everwood", "Gilmore Girls", etc.).  None of the supporting characters are real people, with real thoughts and feelings about Storybrooke, Curses, whether they want to return to the Enchanted Forest etc.  Which is no surprise considering main characters like Snowing weren't even written as real people half the time!  

20 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Really, Neal should have had a redemption story. 

That would require giving him screentime.  They clearly found Hook's redemption path more interesting.

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

They clearly found Hook's redemption path more interesting.

So did I--until they started beating us (and Hook) over the head with his past misdeeds. They are one note writers.

I was going through my drafts page on tumblr to try and clear them out, and some of the posts were from season 5. Looking back, it seems like almost every plot point in the Show has been done to manipulate the audience in some way or the other. For example, they had Emma take on the Darkness to spare Regina/Storybrooke. But there was no follow-through on that aspect. Season 5 opens with Emma having gone "Dark". The mystery is set up as the Nevengers having failed to keep Emma from being consumed by the Darkness. But it turns out that Emma gave in to Darkness to save Hook. Whom she then has to kill herself (talk about hopeless). It's the same every season. They always set things up, and either fail to follow through, or resolve it with ridiculous deux ex machinas. I feel like the majority of us hung on so long for the potential show this could have been rather than what it actually was.

Neal's white-washing was definitely a case of lazy-writing. They had no interest in Neal + they like to make false equivalencies. Thus, Neal is killed off and promoted to sainthood. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Rumsy4

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

the dwarves are just yesmen for the Charmings

Or, in the end, for "Queen" Regina.

[superloislane]

On 05/09/2017 at 0:38 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Now, though, I wonder if the sense that there might be something between Hook and Emma was a case of the acting/cast chemistry and that writing idiot savant thing.

I think they always intended on having something romantic between Hook and Emma (you can't have characters talking to each other about being in love and flirting with each other for a whole episode for nothing) and they wanted to have the love triangle but I think they wanted Emma/Neal to be the endgame couple. I remember reading an interview with A&E during season 2 where I think they said that Hook can be a good time but wouldn't be a great father figure/longtime guy. But then Neal wasn't very popular with viewers (since the first time they introduce him is when he's screwing over Emma - what were they thinking?!) and so they moved Hook from a casual relationship for Emma to the main love interest and got rid of Neal.

[Rumsy4]

38 minutes ago, superloislane said:

and they wanted to have the love triangle but I think they wanted Emma/Neal to be the endgame couple

If this is what they wanted, then they went about it the wrong way. The Neal whitewashing didn't happen until they decided to kill him off. 

[superloislane]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

If this is what they wanted, then they went about it the wrong way. The Neal whitewashing didn't happen until they decided to kill him off. 

They constantly had characters saying how Emma and Neal still had feelings for each other in 2b and they even had Emma say she loved him right before he 'died'. I don't think they realised how bad they made Neal look and so didn't think they needed him to be whitewashed. It certainly wouldn't be the first or last time. They don't really understand how things look to the audience. I think there's a big difference between how they showed Emma/Neal in season 2 to how they showed them in season 3 (after they got feedback about Neal I'd say...)

[KAOS Agent]

It occurred to me the other day that Snow spent almost her entire life paying for being an evil little secret telling brat. Meanwhile, Dark Swan was the evilest ever for not telling her secret that Hook was also a Dark One. So which is it? Is telling secrets evil or is keeping them evil?

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

It occurred to me the other day that Snow spent almost her entire life paying for being an evil little secret telling brat. 

What do you mean "paying for"?  The Cursed identity was everything Snow ever wanted out of life, and remember how much she learned from Regina trying to kill her: "I realized when the Evil Queen was trying to kill me, that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up.  You taught me how to have faith.  You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice."  Snow only gained from the experience... she gained her personality, her strength and really, the life that she had always wanted.  

[RadioGirl27]

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

If this is what they wanted, then they went about it the wrong way. The Neal whitewashing didn't happen until they decided to kill him off. 

And that surprises you? They thought Regina and Graham were fun and flirty, they probably thought that twentysomething Neal impregnating sixteen years old Emma and leaving her in jail "for her own good" was incredibly romantic.

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, RadioGirl27 said:

They thought Regina and Graham were fun and flirty, they probably thought that twentysomething Neal impregnating sixteen years old Emma and leaving her in jail "for her own good" was incredibly romantic.

They also seemed to think that CryptAdulterySex was romantic.

There were a lot of miscalculations about Neal. On paper, the idea of Bae and teen Emma getting together works -- imagine the Bae who tried to find a way to save his father from being the Dark One and was betrayed at the portal, maybe a few years older, and teen Emma (real teen Emma, not JMo in a ponytail and glasses), two kids on their own against the big, bad world after being abandoned by their parents, turning to each other, possibly being each other's first sex. You could even imagine Bae being freaked out enough by realizing he'd be brought back to his father that he might have panicked and abandoned her. But their overriding of the casting geniuses and their priority on surprise worked against them. Adult Neal looks absolutely nothing like teen Bae. It's nearly impossible to make any connections between his looks or his mannerisms. I wonder if they even told MRJ in "Tallahassee" who his character really was. Did he get the chance to study the episode with teen Bae and try to make his character an adult version? Or did they keep the actor in the dark because they wanted the revelation that Neal was Bae to be a huge surprise, and they were afraid that if he acted at all like the younger version the surprise would be ruined? Then there's the fact that MRJ looks older than his age. He's got a craggy, weathered look about him, and while they aged JMo down for teen Emma, they didn't even try to make Neal look any younger. As a result, we've got what looks like a 40-year-old slacker hitting on a teenager.

That created a bad first impression, but they might have been able to recover if they'd handled things differently. But they never bothered connecting the dots between Bae and Neal, even after the big revelation. Watching "Second Star to the Right" and "Straight on 'Til Morning" with all the Bae flashbacks, there's never a moment where I really feel like the Bae in the past and the Neal in the present are the same person. It's a huge contrast with, say, young Snow and adult Snow, where you have to convince yourself that they aren't the same actress. They didn't show us the transformation from Bae to Neal. We don't see echoes of Bae in Neal's behavior in the present. We just see him willingly throwing Emma under the bus with Henry instead of taking any kind of responsibility, denying Emma's abilities and instincts, and generally being the exact opposite of the boy who tried to protect the Darlings. If he's the opposite now of what he was in the past, we need to see the change to make the connection.

So, I can imagine that the writers thought that people loved young Bae, so they'd love him with Emma, handled it badly, were surprised that the audience didn't react the way they expected, and then gave up and pretended that was what they planned all along.

[jhlipton]

On 9/6/2017 at 10:41 PM, KAOS Agent said:

 Is telling secrets evil or is keeping them evil?

Telling secrets "has consequences".  LOL

[Camera One]

Picking up from the discussion in the Other Fairy Tales thread, Snow said on two separate occasions that she was such a brat/difficult child.  Does anyone remember the second instance of it?

Once was in "Bleeding Through", and I was re-reading the script... you'd think Regina would have at least once admitted that she was not a brat.

Quote

In Bleeding Through, Regina said this: "Well, we can never know our past completely.  If we had, I probably wouldn't have spent so much time trying to kill you."

Probably?  

Quote

And then Snow: "Well, we would've found something to fight about.  I mean, I was such a brat."

I mean, this is probably when a so-called reforming Regina would have said, "No. I was the monster."  The transcript online is unclear (doesn't indicate speaker), but the next line was "Your mother's child".  Did Regina say that?  What does that mean?

Edited September 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

but the next line was "Your mother's child".  Did Regina say that?  What does that mean?

Regina said that, meaning: Like mother, like daughter. Because you know, Eva was such a brat for revealing secrets and not letting poor Cora trap Leo into a fraudulent marriage. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, CCTC said:

I also wish they would step away from the Disney princesses.   There are other characters they can encounter in the Enchanted Forest.   It seems like they don't even bother to try and dig deep for new ideas or come up with some characters who are not cut out from the same mold.

Unfortunately, that has been their problem all along.  They could always have used the Disney princess stories as a jumping off point to related folktales or myths, but they very rarely do.  If they do, it's extremely surface-level and are more Easter eggs.  For Camelot, they made very little effort to include Arthurian mythology, beyond a single episode.  Heck, they didn't even bother doing "The Sword and the Stone" justice.  For Agrabah, they didn't bother to use Aladdin as a launching pad to explore some of the tales of A Thousand one Nights (plus ditto for not doing justice to the Disney movie).  In Oz, the only reason why there was any atmosphere at all was the CGI, not the incorporation of elements from the books (Glinda, Dorothy, etc. were all one-dimensional throwaways).  For Neverland, Tiger Lily was in-name-only, though they did a bit more with the sinister interpretation of Peter Pan).  Even in the Enchanted Forest, there are still many tales unexplored such as "Princess and the Pea", "The Twelve Dancing Princesses", "Snow White and Rose Red", "Bluebeard", etc.  The only time they seemed to more cleverly meld the Disney version and the original version was with "Frozen" and "The Snow Queen", with the mirror pieces and the Shattered Sight Curse (even though that was ultimately a one-and-done).

Edited September 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

Picking up from the discussion in the Other Fairy Tales thread, Snow said on two separate occasions that she was such a brat/difficult child.  Does anyone remember the second instance of it?

Hmm, now I'm not sure when the second one was -- I have this vague sense of it being in 4B, but that could be wrong. I'll look out for it as I continue the rewatch.

I did notice in the 3A premiere, there's a scene in which Regina comes up to Hook and is talking to him about what Greg and Tamara said to her, and she says, in a "Can you believe this?" tone that Greg called her a villain. It does lead into that "villains don't get happy endings" thing, and maybe that's the "can you believe this?" part, but I find it odd/interesting that the woman who had only just recently plotted to kill everyone on town, who had just faced a man whose father she murdered because he didn't want to stay with her, who cursed an entire society, and who slaughtered villages was surprised to be called a villain. But then in 2B flashbacks, she was going on about how Snow was the real villain and was evil, and she seemed to believe it while being exasperated that the kingdom saw her as a villain even while she slaughtered villages. She did later start referring to herself as a villain in 4A, and seemed to believe the "villains don't get happy endings" mantra, but I don't think she's ever specifically said that Snow wasn't in the wrong and wasn't evil. When did the switch happen, when she went from "Snow is evil and the real villain, I'm the victim here!" to "I'm a villain, and villains don't get happy endings"?

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Hmm, now I'm not sure when the second one was -- I have this vague sense of it being in 4B, but that could be wrong. I'll look out for it as I continue the rewatch.

I had thought maybe it was the Hercules episode, but I couldn't find the line.  I also thought it might be "The Savior" since it was another episode with utterly ridiculous lines for Snow where she attributes her hope and strength to Regina (that was also the episode where Regina finally admitted she was a bad stepmother... understatement of the year).

Edited September 9, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 (that was also the episode where Regina finally admitted she was a bad stepmother... understatement of the year).

They made a big mistake in not making Regina different from her usually self after the split. They should have made her hyper-aware of her conscience and conviction. 

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Honestly, I kinda think Regina blamed Snow because she couldn't confront her mother, who had magic and was powerful. Snow, a kid at the time, was an easy scapegoat. Doesn't make it right, but people do it all the time in the real world; blame and go for the easy target. It's only when Regina has magic and power in her own right that she strikes back at her mother, even if she never seems to really acknowledge she was wrong at targeting Snow and should have been blaming her mother all those years.

That was one of 2B's missed redemption opportunities. Being away from Cora and then reunited with her and seeing what she really was should have been a wake-up call for Regina. She saw how easily she as an adult who knew what Cora was like was manipulated with that "I'll frame you for murder so you'll see what people think about you and know that you can only rely on me scheme" (and, boy, do they like that plot, since they did it again with Ingrid and framing Elsa for the freezing curse to try to manipulate Elsa, only Elsa didn't fall for it). She learned that Cora had set up the whole thing. And yet she didn't have any kind of "aha!" moment of realizing that Cora had planned it all from the start, that a 10-year-old who didn't know Cora wouldn't stand a chance against her if Cora could easily manipulate an adult who knew to be wary of her, and that Cora probably would have stopped at nothing to get what she wanted, no matter what Snow did or didn't do. The fact that Regina didn't have that realization at that time counts as a strike against her when it comes to her redemption making sense.

Now that I'm in 3A, I have to say that Robbie Kay is really quite stunningly great as Pan. I think, if anything, he was underutilized. The backstory about him as Rumple's father makes very little sense -- why did a Scottish man become English when he became a teenager? Was Pan pretty much Malcolm's teenage form, so he de-aged back into what he was like as a teen, or was the transformation into Pan a complete transformation into another person? And I wish we'd seen more of the Darlings' story. The actress playing Wendy was perfectly cast, and it's a shame that the Darling kids trying to go to Neverland to rescue Bae only to end up as prisoners/agents of Pan was one of their ItHappenedOffscreen situations. That's where I think that straining for that personal connection and making Pan Rumple's father worked against the story. If they'd devoted the time spent on Rumple crying over the doll and on building that backstory to other Neverland stuff, it would have been more exciting -- the Darlings' rescue mission, the relationship between Bae and Hook, the transition between Bae and Neal, what happened with Tink on Neverland. As it was, they pretty much negated all the supposed Rumple character development from him confronting and defeating his father by having Rumple go right back to his evil ways after he was brought back from being dead. All that screentime, and nothing really changed.

[jhlipton]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:22 PM, Camera One said:

The only time they seemed to more cleverly meld the Disney version and the original version was with "Frozen" and "The Snow Queen", with the mirror pieces and the Shattered Sight Curse (even though that was ultimately a one-and-done).

And that seems to have been due to the heavy ahnd of Disney.

On 9/9/2017 at 5:08 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I have to say that Robbie Kay is really quite stunningly great as Pan.

He was also one of the few good things about Heroes Reborn.

[Camera One]

43 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

They learned their lesson from Cinderella's first fairy godmother.  (Am I still mad about a white male murdering a black woman without any repercussions at all?  "Magic has consequences", my ass.  You're  damn right I am.)

I hated that.  It was supposed to be such a great shocking twist.  Blue never even got to respond to one of her own getting killed.  Back in Season 1, I thought they were going to explore the fairies' response to that murder.  Magic doesn't have consequences for Rumple, just for everyone else.  These Writers have no sense of how a real human being would act or feel.  I can't believe they had Cinderella calling Rumple her fairy-godfather in "The Other Shoe" and not giving a second thought to the fact that she watched someone get murdered.  To the Writers, the fairy-godmother was a redshirt, so the viewers shouldn't care and the characters shouldn't care either.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Hello "Once Upon a Time" scholars.  I'm having a lot of trouble with this concept in the quote below.  Can someone please explain it to me?

Quote

Darkness can't snuff out the light.  It's not strong enough.  Only light can snuff out light.

How does this work within the mythology of the show?  I'm sure there are deep linkages to earlier seasons, but I can't seem to find any.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Camera One

[daxx]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Hello "Once Upon a Time" scholars.  I'm having a lot of trouble with this concept in the quote below.  Can someone please explain it to me?

How does this work within the mythology of the show?  I'm sure there are deep linkages to earlier seasons, but I can't seem to find any.

I've thought about this before and it still makes no sense to me. Not even sure what they were going for other than trying make it clear that Gideon wasn't dark, although wanting to kill someone should be dark, no?

The  dark fairy's hold over his heart should have been broken when she died. There should have been no battle.

or am I forgetting something, I've only seen the finale once,ugh. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

When a female "hero" does it, she's shamed and she has lost her moral integrity.  What a feminist show, eh?  

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

In the season 6 finale Emma was basically a shivering shell who passively accepted death (and she is unable to rescue herself from the curse), Regina and Zelina's magical efforts were worthless, they basically limited Snow to a scene to be mirror image a scene with her in Charming in season 1 as their closure and good bye, Belle literally was taken out from helping save her son by getting injured because she was running in heels,  and male Rumple was the one who ended up saving the day basically for making a decision not for the greater good, but for his own self-interests.

Agree. Season 6 railroaded over Emma as a character, and most of the other female charatcers did not fare any better (that point about Belle!!). The Other Shoe seemed to bring back the Season 1 message that you have to punch back and make your own path. But in the end, it turned out that you can't outrun your so-called destiny. You have to lie down and take crap from other people, even if it means letting them kill you, because that's the only way to be a strong and "good" female hero. What kind of a dumb message is that??  Emma should not have turned into a shivering mess in Season 6. She should have found a way to defeat Gidiot and the Black Fairy by "punching back" at destiny. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Souris]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Agree. Season 6 railroaded over Emma as a character, and most of the other female charatcers did not fare any better (that point about Belle!!). The Other Shoe seemed to bring back the Season 1 message that you have to punch back and make your own path. But in the end, it turned out that you can't outrun your so-called destiny. You have to lie down and take crap from other people, even if it means letting them kill you, because that's the only way to be a strong and "good" female hero. What kind of a dumb message is that??  Emma should not have turned into a shivering mess in Season 6. She should have found a way to defeat Gidiot and the Black Fairy by "punching back" at destiny. 

Pretty sure at least part of that dumping on Emma as a character and making her so inactive was A&E "punishing" Jen for not signing on for S7. Of course, it's also possible that it was just A&E's horrible writing and general lack of knowledge of how to actually write strong (female or otherwise) characters exacerbated by bitterness toward Jen.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Souris

[CCTC]

I watched a few episodes of season 1 this summer.  It really highlighted how they have watered the character of Emma down.  She was much more resourceful and confident and kick-ass back when she had "walls".  It was also interesting to how much Henry did not like Regina and she really did not seem that fond of him.

[ParadoxLost]

8 hours ago, Souris said:

Pretty sure at least part of that dumping on Emma as a character and making her so inactive was A&E "punishing" Jen for not signing on for S7. Of course, it's also possible that it was just A&E's horrible writing and general lack of knowledge of how to actually write strong (female or otherwise) characters exacerbated by bitterness toward Jen.

I think another part was to reduce the importance of the character before she left.  That's a typical tactic I've noticed.  Shows sacrifice the current story to try to lessen the impact of going on without a character later on.  They were trying to seed a "good riddance, not going to miss you" mentality into the viewers attitude about Emma's departures. 

This is something that has never worked with me.  I'd rather they tell the best story they can.  Rip my guts out with heartbreak if that is what it takes.  If they do a good enough job making the last time a character is on screen matter, I'm more likely to stick around on the strength of the storytelling and to see the aftermath and likely latch onto something else.

Wasting obvious opportunities when the character is still around just pisses me off.

[Souris]

25 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think another part was to reduce the importance of the character before she left.  That's a typical tactic I've noticed.  Shows sacrifice the current story to try to lessen the impact of going on without a character later on.  They were trying to seed a "good riddance, not going to miss you" mentality into the viewers attitude about Emma's departures. 

This is something that has never worked with me.  I'd rather they tell the best story they can.  Rip my guts out with heartbreak if that is what it takes.  If they do a good enough job making the last time a character is on screen matter, I'm more likely to stick around on the strength of the storytelling and to see the aftermath and likely latch onto something else.

Wasting obvious opportunities when the character is still around just pisses me off.

Amen. And ITA. They totally did that. They also did it to her relationship with Hook, separating them the whole season and purposefully making it no longer an epic True Love. They 100% sacrificed season 6 to pave the way for season 7, even with no guarantee it would happen. It's just gross and shows no respect for the characters, story or fans.

[Shanna Marie]

About halfway through 3A, and I have thoughts. For one thing, I don't see how anyone could watch 3A and think that ever making Henry the central character would be a good idea. He was a great kid and adorable in season one, and it went downhill from there. His behavior in 3A makes very little sense. I could certainly see scenarios in which he could be conned by Pan, given that he has our world's view of that story and wouldn't have known that Pan was a villain, but him thinking of himself as a Lost Boy because Emma gave him up for adoption doesn't fit his attitude in season one, when he understood and even considered it to be part of the "story," as something that was part of Emma's Savior role in being able to break the curse.

I have to give 2A the advantage over 3A on the basis of flashbacks because the flashback side of 3A is really iffy. To start with, there's a weird emphasis on Regina, considering that she has such a tenuous connection to the background of the present story. In the first three episodes, the first one doesn't have flashbacks and the next two feature Regina in the flashbacks. I think there are at least three more flashbacks involving or focusing on Regina in that arc. I know they were trying to be thematic with the flashbacks rather than telling backstory relevant to the present-day story, but sometimes even the theme doesn't work, like with "Lost Girl," where they couldn't keep straight what the theme was. Was it "you have to learn to believe in yourself" or was it "you have to accept who you really are"? With the Snow part of the story, they were more or less the same thing. She had to believe in herself to accept that she was the princess and the rightful ruler. But on the Emma side of the story, it was about everyone believing in her that she'd be able to figure out who she was and make the map work -- except accepting who she was meant believing that she was an orphan and a Lost Girl. Not at all the same thing. Those flashbacks are also rather damaged by later events. It's rather creepy that Charming fakes Excalibur to help Snow believe in herself, given that we later learned Excalibur was part of the Dark One dagger, and it was the weapon that killed Hook (both with the unhealable wound and Emma killing him in sacrifice). I guess Regina's lucky that wasn't the real Excalibur or that cut Snow gave her might have killed her. This flashback also renders that season six finale bit of the dwarfs painting "Queen" on Regina's door and bowing to her even more ridiculous. Regina herself admits that she's not the rightful queen and that she wants to force Snow out. They do a whole episode worth of flashbacks building up to Snow believing that she's the rightful queen and is going to take her kingdom back. But then later a supposedly redeemed Regina never gives the title/throne/role back to the rightful ruler (quitting when she was sad about Robin doesn't count, since that's not why she handed it over, and it was the townspeople who came to Snow and forced her to step up), and Snow never even tries after the curse to take back her rightful role that she supposedly came to believe in. Regina tried to kill Grumpy to force Snow to give up her claim to the throne, and now he's acknowledging Regina as queen? Ugh.

The Tink backstory was such a waste, especially since it was tied to the terrible pixie dust romance plot. It doesn't really even explain Tink's animosity to Regina. It's not really Regina's fault that she lost her wings. Regina wasn't under obligation to accept something Tink did for her, and Tink was in trouble for disobeying and for stealing pixie dust. I'm not sure things would have gone differently for her even if Regina had met Robin. She had still disobeyed, lied, and stolen. A better plot might have been Regina conning Tink into taking the pixie dust under the pretense of going along with Tink's plan to find her soulmate, but really just taking it to use for her revenge.

Even "Good Form" was somewhat marred by later events. It kind of diminishes it to know that the Jones brothers got their position due to Liam's deal with Hades. It still doesn't really fit that they could have moved up so much and that Killian could have gained all the knowledge he did after having spent the early part of his life as an indentured servant unless you imagine teenagers in the flashbacks for "The Brothers Jones," but then you have the ick of considering a teenager getting blackout drunk, apparently on a regular basis. It also kind of ruins the fun shock value of seeing the contrast between Lt. Jones and Hook if you know that Lt. Jones was actually a very brief aberration in his past rather than the way he really used to be. The present-day stuff is amusing, considering that Emma and Hook ended up married, but David really is a jerk, and it doesn't help that after this life saving, he keeps reverting to the "you're just a pirate" act. I wonder if they planned to give the impression that Emma might have been right that Hook couldn't handle a kiss or if that was a happy accident with Colin's natural bashfulness. It's cute how the pirate who loves his innuendo is left blushing furiously after a kiss.

There's just so much potential in this story. How could they have spent as much time in Bae's cave as they did without ever showing a flashback of Bae living there? How could they have made so many references to Hook working for Pan in the past without ever showing us what Hook's relationship to Pan was during the past? How could they make it seem like Hook had a real dilemma in having to choose Emma or his friend without us ever having seen Hook and Bae being friends (and no interaction between Hook and Neal in the present -- did they forget having to cut that when Colin broke his leg?)? How could they talk about Pan trusting Tink without us seeing anything about their relationship and her arrival in Neverland?

[Rumsy4]

Bringing this  from the spoiler thread. 

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's funny how a couple of writers who have worked on major series and have created and run two series seem to have this chip on their shoulder about being "struggling" writers who aren't appreciated. No wonder they identify with Regina, the underdog who's a queen/mayor, lives in a palace/mansion, and has magical powers.

They probably want to work for cable, and considering the criticisms frequently leveled at the GoT writers, it doesn't seem too far-fetched. Or maybe A&E want to be screenwriters for the Star Trek and Star Wars reboots, and are annoyed at people like JJ not considering them. After all, they've been pushed as geniuses and master-storytellers by abc. 

I think for Adam at least, he is deeply influenced by twitter feedback. It's like Zelena whining that she doesn't have the love of the munchkins and Regina complaining that her subjects call her "evil". They think OUAT should be a critically-acclaimed fantasy instead of the hack fantasy-drama it actually is.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

3A's whole is greater than the sum of its parts. None of the episodes are particularly compelling on their own, except for maybe the finale. While the setting and character-focused writing play to its favor, the lackluster worldbuilding and pointless flashbacks drag it down from glory. It also doesn't help that it hinges on the Rumple/Pan relationship, which is very gimmicky. However, the overall plot to save Henry and escape Neverland is straight-forward and easy to grasp for the audience. At that point in time, the "we must stop x villain" format hadn't quite worn out its welcome yet. (Heck, it would have still worked in 3B if Zelena had been written better.)

[Camera One]

I've never thought 3A was that much better than some of the other arcs.  As said above, the flashbacks were all over the place with two particularly bad ones ("Quite a Common Fairy" kicking off the whole soulmate subplot and "Nasty Habits" which was basically dragging out the surprise "twist" that Peter Pan was Rumple's father).  We had the annoying secret-keeping with David and the dreamshade.  We had Henry easily succumbing to Peter Pan's "charms".  I never bought that Peter Pan would still trust Tinkerbelle or that he wouldn't know exactly what they were all up to.  After "Lost Girl", we would never get another Snow/Emma episode, and Emma was segregated from David's dreamshade subplot with Snow, since she needed to be slotted into the triangle.  Granted, it was probably the best half-season for Hook, in terms of character growth.

Still, all was not yet lost, since the setup in "Going Home" had so much potential that one would think it could rejuvenate the show.  But nope, one episode into 3B, everyone was back in Storybrooke and pretty much the same except for a Zelena overdose of massive proportions, unconvincing "romance" with Outlaw Queen, and retcons up the wazoo.  But then again, it turns out the show could be even more maddening/insulting (4B) and more boring and repetitive (the entire Season 6).

Edited September 16, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

3A worked for me not because the flashbacks were good or because Neverland was super awesome. I liked it because the characters had to work together towards a common goal and yet, they still hated each other. They treated each other like they should treat the people they hate and who have messed with their lives. Emma had issues with her parents and was allowed to express them (not that it went anywhere, but it seemed like it would at the time). Snow slapped Regina. Rumpel was scorned and still distrusted by Neal & Co. Hook was still an unknown and working towards earning the trust of the others. Regina was disgusted with hanging with the Charmings, still did evil things and wanted to use magical shortcuts that actually backfired on her. And Pan was awesome. The character dynamics were believable and interesting. That's why I liked 3A. 

Looking back now, I can see all the signs of bad things to come, but at the time, the good things covered up a lot of the bad and I was still interested. I can overlook a lot when I want to see where the characters are going. Nonsensical plots weren't the entire basis for the show and it seemed like there would be actual consequences based on the events of "Going Home". 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

3A worked for me not because the flashbacks were good or because Neverland was super awesome. I liked it because the characters had to work together towards a common goal and yet, they still hated each other. They treated each other like they should treat the people they hate and who have messed with their lives. Emma had issues with her parents and was allowed to express them (not that it went anywhere, but it seemed like it would at the time). Snow slapped Regina. Rumpel was scorned and still distrusted by Neal & Co. Hook was still an unknown and working towards earning the trust of the others. Regina was disgusted with hanging with the Charmings, still did evil things and wanted to use magical shortcuts that actually backfired on her. And Pan was awesome. The character dynamics were believable and interesting. That's why I liked 3A. 

Looking back now, I can see all the signs of bad things to come, but at the time, the good things covered up a lot of the bad and I was still interested. I can overlook a lot when I want to see where the characters are going. Nonsensical plots weren't the entire basis for the show and it seemed like there would be actual consequences based on the events of "Going Home". 

I liked those parts of Neverland too. They had to work together but it also made sense that they didn't want to or trust each other. It was nice having Regina's magic backfire. It was nice having Emma having issues with her parents. I still love the talk between her and Snow when she realizes she's a Lost Girl and worries about hurting Snow and you can see Snow is a little hurt. I liked for that moment both characters reacting the way they should Emma did have a crappy childhood and Snow should and would feel horrible hearing about it not only did she miss everything but Snow was originally going to go with Emma. It felt like this was something that was going to be worked on Emma's relationship with her parents. Snow and Charming figuring out what kind of relationship to have with their grown up daughter.  There was a lot more they could have done with Neverland Hook and Neal flashbacks to their time in Neverland, made Henry believing Pan more believable and explained why Pan would trust Tinkerbell. Then they had such a wonderful set up in Going Home. It was a perfect new plot starting point that they didn't do anything with which became their normal pattern.  2B was mess but it really looked like they had learned from it and that maybe it was just a sophomore slump. 

[Shanna Marie]

I think for me a lot of the difference between 2A and 3A is that 2A pretty much lived up to expectations -- not necessarily what we wanted after the end of season one, but what we would have expected for what we got. I can't think of much on the Team Princess side of the story that should have been there that wasn't. The relevant backstories were told, the various relationships got the time they needed. The Storybrooke side was a little weaker, and I might have liked more of the culture clash once the people knew their real identities and found themselves in the modern world, but that was actually the only time in the series when that was addressed at all. Regina was actually somewhat contrite and trying but without being shown to be a victim. I guess in a way, the Storybrooke side was like season one in being a case-of-the-week, episodic format. There wasn't a lot of complexity, but that meant they actually dealt with everything they set up. They did later drop most of the stuff that was set up and left a lot of holes (like Philip's fate), but within the arc, it all worked.

In 3A, I think maybe they tried too hard, and they didn't live up to what they set up. The core plot -- save Henry from Pan -- is simple and straightforward, and there was little on the Storybrooke side to dilute it. But then they attempted a lot of emotional complexity. The list of character issues that were directly related to or that affected the plot gets pretty long:

1. Rumple is Pan's son
2. Rumple believes Henry will bring about his downfall and is tempted not to save him
3. Neal escaped from Neverland and then grew up, and now he's back and having to face his former nemesis
4. Hook spent a long time in Neverland, managed to leave somehow, used to work for Pan, and Pan wants them to resume their prior working relationship
5. Emma is forced to confront the way her own past makes her a Lost Girl, and this also forces her parents to acknowledge what she went through because of decisions they made
6. Snow has to confront what she lost because of the curse
7. David keeps secrets from Snow, and the adventure reveals potential cracks in their relationship
8. Both Neal and Hook have a romantic interest in Emma. She's at least physically attracted to Hook and admits that she never got over Neal, but she doesn't trust Hook and has epic amounts of baggage with Neal. Meanwhile, Neal and Hook were friends in Neverland, which makes Hook conflicted about competing with Neal over Emma, since he has guilt about taking Neal's mother away from him and he doesn't want to keep Henry's father away from him. Hook's also conflicted with the opportunity Pan gives him to keep Neal out of the picture, since he has a lot of loyalty and caring for Neal.
9. Tink has a complicated and awkward past with Regina, as well as some kind of past interaction with Hook and Neal, but Pan also trusts her, even though she desperately wants out of Neverland.
10. The gang is having to work with Hook and Regina, who not long ago were enemies, but now they have a common goal

They did deal with #1 and #2. There was some present-day telling of #3 and #4, but we never saw any of it to really establish it. There was a nice scene with #5, but then it was totally dropped. We got a scene of #6, but it didn't seem to affect Snow and Emma's relationship. They dealt with #7 to some extent, but it was later dropped. Because they didn't deal with #3 and #4, the emotional impact of the triangle fell flat (and then it was all negated almost immediately afterward when they killed off Neal early in the next arc). We got the Regina side of #9 but got no real background on the rest. Hook got a lot of mistrust on #10, and Emma was allowed to call Regina a monster, but Hook got more flak for stealing the last bean than Regina did for being the reason there was a last bean or for having planned to kill them all so they needed a last bean.

I think in a "normal" show that just dealt with the present day, it wouldn't have been so bad because we wouldn't have expected to be shown the characters' history. About the only things that might have been missing from the present would have been some establishment of friendship between Neal and Hook before launching the triangle and maybe dealing more with the intra-team conflict. But in a show built on flashbacks to show the backstory, the lack of showing the backstories of elements that were essential to all this supposed emotional complexity was pretty glaring. They aimed a lot higher by making it all so complicated and personal, but then they failed to carry out what they set up.

It would have worked better if they'd simplified things a bit, just focused on a few of the key relationships. Tink could have been a failed fairy exiled to Neverland without having a past with Regina. I think Pan being Rumple's father was a misstep. They didn't need that to make things personal. Neal and Hook had a history with Pan, and Pan had captured the son of Neal, Regina and Emma and grandson of Snow, David, Rumple (and sort of Hook). How much more personal did things need to be? Take away all the scenes of Rumple crying over a doll and they'd have had time to address some of the other character stuff. Just a showdown between the immortal and powerful Dark One and the immortal and powerful Pan would have been interesting. There's as big a disconnect between Malcolm and Pan as there is between Bae and Neal, so that connection never worked for me. I can't see the lazy and kind of stupid-seeming Malcolm being able to become the clever and manipulative Pan who keeps a whole world running.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would have worked better if they'd simplified things a bit, just focused on a few of the key relationships. Tink could have been a failed fairy exiled to Neverland without having a past with Regina. I think Pan being Rumple's father was a misstep. They didn't need that to make things personal. Neal and Hook had a history with Pan, and Pan had captured the son of Neal, Regina and Emma and grandson of Snow, David, Rumple (and sort of Hook). How much more personal did things need to be? Take away all the scenes of Rumple crying over a doll and they'd have had time to address some of the other character stuff. Just a showdown between the immortal and powerful Dark One and the immortal and powerful Pan would have been interesting. There's as big a disconnect between Malcolm and Pan as there is between Bae and Neal, so that connection never worked for me. I can't see the lazy and kind of stupid-seeming Malcolm being able to become the clever and manipulative Pan who keeps a whole world running.

They really didn't need to make Pan be Rumple's father. They could have kept them as enemies who have clashed before maybe several times. It makes since given the two characters and how long they've alive that they would have clashed with each other. It could have tied into Neal, the time that he was there that Pan held him and used him as leverage against Rumple. It could fill in the timeline of how long it took Rumple to cast the curse. Now Pan wanting revenge against Rumple by going after Henry.  

[Camera One]

Quote

 I liked it because the characters had to work together towards a common goal and yet, they still hated each other. They treated each other like they should treat the people they hate and who have messed with their lives.

This shows how low our standards are when it comes to this show.  The characters should always be treating the people who wronged them the way normal people would.  That was definitely a plus in 3A, but that alone didn't necessarily make 3A all that great of a story to me.  Too many people were still holding the idiot ball in the various subplots for me to really lose myself in the storyline.

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It felt like this was something that was going to be worked on Emma's relationship with her parents. Snow and Charming figuring out what kind of relationship to have with their grown up daughter. 

I remember did have that hope after "Lost Girl", but it was clear soon after that we weren't going to get that at all.  In hindsight, it makes sense since we now know that they were originally planning to have Emma and Hook at the end of that episode.  Which shows that right from the start of Season 3, they were never going to plan an arc around the Charming family unit... the focus for Emma was going to be Hook and the triangle.  

Quote

I can't think of much on the Team Princess side of the story that should have been there that wasn't. The relevant backstories were told, the various relationships got the time they needed. 

Although I enjoyed Team Princess, I must admit I was still disappointed and it didn't hold up as well on rewatch, since the bonding and conversations among them were very superficial.  It ultimately became them walking around from plot point to plot point, with very little world-building.  Even Emma/Snow got very little after the episode where they visited the destroyed nursery.  So to me, they could have done more.  

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They didn't need that to make things personal.

But heroes never do anything unless "This time it's personal!!!!!!!!!"

[KingOfHearts]

20 hours ago, jhlipton said:

But heroes never do anything unless "This time it's personal!!!!!!!!!"

The heroes appear to be pretty selfish. They don't go out of their way for others unless it directly impacts them. Even with Operation Firebird, all the souls they saved were either related or closely connected to them. That contrasts with S1, when Emma raced to bring Ashley to the hospital, returned Ava and Nicholas to their father, and gave Ruby a job at the sheriff's station. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 9/16/2017 at 11:02 PM, Camera One said:

Although I enjoyed Team Princess, I must admit I was still disappointed and it didn't hold up as well on rewatch, since the bonding and conversations among them were very superficial.  It ultimately became them walking around from plot point to plot point, with very little world-building.  Even Emma/Snow got very little after the episode where they visited the destroyed nursery.  So to me, they could have done more.  

There's always room for improvement -- more conversations, better worldbuilding, deeper relationships and interactions. But with 3A, I feel like we're missing critical information that affects the character arcs and plot. Take the Neal and Hook stuff. We're missing the context, and the way things happened in the past could totally change the way we see things in the present. All we saw of their history was Bae's brief time on the Jolly Roger before Bae rejected Hook for taking his mother from him and Hook turned him over to Pan, and then there was the split second in the present when Neal recognized him after he poisoned Rumple and Emma knocked him out. So we have no idea how to see things when Pan tells Hook that Neal's alive and spells out his dilemma of having to choose his friend or having a chance with Emma. Were they really friends? We don't know. If what we saw was all that happened, other than maybe Hook checking on Bae enough to know where his cave was, that has an entirely different meaning than if they ran into each other again and eventually bonded, and even there, it's different if Hook sought Bae out or if Bae sought Hook out. If there wasn't much more to it than we saw, then Hook's decision was mostly about doing the right thing because there's not a lot of loyalty other than to Milah's memory. If it was a deep friendship, with Hook serving as a kind of father figure/big brother/uncle to Bae, then there's not much dilemma -- he couldn't choose to abandon Neal. The kind of relationship they had also changes the way we see their squabbling in "Dark Hollow." If they got along pretty well without bickering, then their squabbling over the lighter/Emma is a drastic change in their relationship and a real issue. If they were always a bit combative, like they maybe hung out due to necessity and lack of anyone better to hang out with but never really got over their differences, then the squabbling over Emma is just an extension of that. There's also the Milah issue. Neal either believes Hook killed her or Rumple killed her, but it never comes up again, so we don't know which one he decided to believe, and it's not an issue with either of them. If Neal isn't wanting to trust his father, wouldn't that have been one of the reasons mentioned?

Likewise with Tinkerbell and her alleged trust from Pan -- we never see that, so we don't know if we're supposed to believe it's true. We don't know if he really trusts her or is just playing games. If he does trust her, then why, and will that remain?

And there's the whole thing with Bae having used Pan's shadow to escape, which we didn't see to set that up or show how he figured it out. I also still think we needed to see the transition between Bae and Neal. They seem to have sort of whitewashed Neal's shady past once we get into 3A, without mention about him being a thief and con artist, so maybe they didn't want to show us what happened with him.

Something I found myself noticing during this arc: At night, they all have bedrolls, some of them with two or more blankets --sleeping on one, covered with one, a kind of tent on branches with another. Sometimes they have lanterns and sometimes they don't. Emma has a sweater she sometimes puts on, and Snow has a jacket she sometimes has on. But the only one of them carrying a pack of any kind is Snow, and it's basically one of those purse backpacks. Emma's sweater might fit in there, but that's about it. Hook has his satchel and his pockets that are apparently bigger on the inside. Otherwise, none of them are carrying anything, and none of the bags they have are big enough for a single blanket or one of the lanterns. So, what are they doing with those bedrolls and lanterns when they're not using them? Are they really and truly just walking in circles and leaving their camp set up? What do they do with their jacket/sweater when not wearing them?

[Shanna Marie]

I've finished 3A and am on to 3B, and while I loved the 3A finale the first time through, I don't think it really holds up. They ended up undermining it. It loses some impact when we know that Storybrooke will be back in the next episode and when we know that Regina's epic sacrifice in separating from Henry forever will only last a few episodes, and their relationship will be a lot better than it ever was, ignoring all the problems they had before. It's also rather obvious that they started with the outcome they wanted -- Emma and Henry stuck in our world, everyone else returned to the Enchanted Forest -- and reverse engineered it with a lot of handwaving. It's never made a lot of sense to me why Neal and Hook had to go with everyone else, why they couldn't have just crossed the town line with Emma and Henry or sailed off on the Jolly Roger, since they weren't part of the original curse. It might have been that the reversal affected everyone from that world, but then we later learned that Ursula and Lily, who were both from the same world (and Cruella, but she was from a different world), were apparently not sucked back by the curse. If it was that Storybrooke would never have existed, so knowing about Storybrooke was why Hook and Neal were caught up in it, well, didn't the Apprentice tell Lily about Storybrooke when she was a teenager? So, basically, there's no logical reason they've given us for Neal and Hook to have to have gone back, so it was apparently just for the drama. Likewise, I'm not sure why Emma and Henry's memories had to be altered. Was that a requirement of reversing the curse, part of the consequence of Storybrooke being undone, or just a kindness so they wouldn't know they'd lost everyone? Was Regina being separated from Henry a vital part of the magic, or merely a consequence of what would happen when the curse was reversed? If the former, then he should never have remembered her. If the later, I bet Regina regretted destroying all the magic beans (not that they seem to remember this), since they could have portaled Emma and Henry away before the curse reversed, and they'd all have been together. Or, since things made of enchanted wood are a known way to get between worlds without the effect of the curse, did they consider throwing Henry in the hold of the Jolly Roger and seeing if that would take him when the curse hit? (They also seem to keep forgetting that whole enchanted wood thing with the ship -- I remember that was one of the theories of how Hook got to Emma, riding out the curse in his ship.) And speaking of the Jolly Roger, it seems that Hook had to be there on the town line for the drama and, I guess, for him to be around the others enough to know a little bit about what happened and what they planned without him knowing everything, but you'd think it would have made sense for him to get on board his ship when the curse reversed so he'd have been with it when he returned to that world.

While 3A was a course correction after 2B, we start seeing some of the flaws that continued through the rest of the series. One thing that kicks in is the Idiot Plotting, where the plot only works if the characters act like complete idiots. We had a bit of that in season 1, when WALLS Emma inexplicably suddenly trusts Sidney and loses all her street smarts, but it becomes the norm late in 3A, starting with Henry being left alone so that Pan conveniently has the opportunity to switch places with him. If you've just rescued your son from a psychopath, are still in the psychopath's territory, and have some of the psychopath's loyalists on board (Panry even noted that Felix was free), do you let your son out of your sight? You'd think they'd have kept Regina or Rumple with him full time until they knew they were home safe. Then there's yet another incident of Emma noticing that something's wrong and everyone dismissing her concerns because she's probably just jealous. When that happened a week or so earlier in show time, if they'd listened to Emma, they might not have been in this mess in the first place.  As we get into 3B, we have everyone trusting one of the few people in town they don't know and who's suddenly getting all creepy and intrusive. Then there's the attempt to expose the Wicked Witch, in which Grumpy keeps his back to the room and no one notices that one stranger suddenly getting up and running (probably not paying her check). Neal didn't need to die to tell them who the Wicked Witch was. They just had to watch the one person who was behaving suspiciously.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 As we get into 3B, we have everyone trusting one of the few people in town they don't know and who's suddenly getting all creepy and intrusive. Then there's the attempt to expose the Wicked Witch, in which Grumpy keeps his back to the room and no one notices that one stranger suddenly getting up and running (probably not paying her check). Neal didn't need to die to tell them who the Wicked Witch was. They just had to watch the one person who was behaving suspiciously.

You have to love how they don't even bother to add a couple more actresses or even just a have a few extras hanging around when their looking for Zelena. Most shows would do one or the other so it makes sense that their characters aren't sure who it could be or even have one be a false lead. Not A&E they have One new person in town that no one knows and is acting suspicious but somehow no one notices.   

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

You have to love how they don't even bother to add a couple more actresses or even just a have a few extras hanging around when their looking for Zelena. Most shows would do one or the other so it makes sense that their characters aren't sure who it could be or even have one be a false lead. Not A&E they have One new person in town that no one knows and is acting suspicious but somehow no one notices.   

It's even worse when we have more info than the characters do, so we know who the villain is, and that just makes the characters look even dumber to us. You need to find a reason why these characters can't figure out what seems blindingly obvious to us. They probably should have held off on showing Zelena in the flashbacks, and they needed other options to be the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke. They needed an innocent that Zelena framed, like maybe a Miss Gulch type who fit the stereotype of "witch." As it was, Neal's "sacrifice" just seems pointless, since Zelena is the only viable suspect in town. If they needed Neal to tell them that the only female newcomer who's making a point of insinuating herself into their lives is the villain they're looking for, then they've reached Too Stupid to Live territory.

Speaking of dumb ... I know we're supposed to find Neal's death all dramatic and tragic, but it comes across as just silly. His plan is basically "Revive the Dark One ... success!" Never mind that it took Rumple more than a century and the destruction of a civilization to reach him. Did he really want Rumple to create another curse? Who was he willing to have killed to pull that off? And then he went through with it in spite of knowing it was a trap. Yet again, we have the issue of not really knowing what Hook and Bae's relationship was. Bless Colin's heart for being all in and making their hug look so emotional that we imagine a relationship, and then there's his reaction to the death and the fact that he acts like he gets a lump in his throat every time Neal/Bae is mentioned, but we still don't know their actual history.

This is also when I started really disliking Regina, since she can only see her own pain. She never seems to realize that she's experiencing what she put others through or that others are also separated from loved ones. That lack of empathy is what makes me unable to believe in her redemption. She's still a narcissist who can't empathize with anyone else. They really retconned her relationship with Henry, and that struck me with her sleeping curse plan. I'm sure she does love him, but I'm not sure I'd consider it "true" love, but from his perspective, he's barely spent any time with her since she was emotionally abusing him and gaslighting him. It was Pan who spent the night at her house. Henry hasn't been there since Regina held him prisoner there. Of course, the true love did end up working, but I don't feel like they earned it.

It's funny, I kind of enjoyed this arc when it was airing, but I think that was mostly hope watching. It really doesn't hold up to rewatching.

[Camera One]

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ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What was the first germ of an idea to take the show in this direction?
EDWARD KITSIS: The first time I really started to think about doing what we’ve been calling the requel — half reboot, half sequel — is around season 4. Every year we kind of reinvent the show, but for us personally, we felt like there was a six-year plan. Either these characters get a happy ending or they don’t, but at a certain point, it’s going to start feeling like we’re just stretching.
ADAM HOROWITZ: So around season 4, when we’d been on for a while and realized it looked like we’d be on for a little while more, the idea of a six-season plan for this first chapter of the story of these characters seemed like the right idea.

They are so full of BS.  They thought of this idea in Season 4, yet they "crafted" such a crap-tastic Season 6.  There was no coherent final character arc for anyone.  They might as well have stayed in Camelot for all of Season 5, and then did Underworld for the entire Season 6.  The Land of Untold Stories/Evil Queen/Black Fairy/Gideon stuff were all fails.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

^The cylons had no plan.  A&E had no plan. But at least BSG mostly put out a watchable show until the finale.

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

You need to find a reason why these characters can't figure out what seems blindingly obvious to us. They probably should have held off on showing Zelena in the flashbacks, and they needed other options to be the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke. They needed an innocent that Zelena framed, like maybe a Miss Gulch type who fit the stereotype of "witch."

I thought that the show had a shot at conning us that Zelena was Mary Poppins if they had handled that entire arc as a mystery regarding what happened in the EF.

I think they should have done that arc entirely differently and stuck with what they set up in the mid season finale. and have it about Emma, Hook and Henry figuring out how to break the curse and reunite with everyone that got sent to the EF and save them from whatever.  I don't think Zelena should have been the main thrust of that arc.  They should have introduced her, revealed her identity, and then done an in depth exploration of Oz down the road.

This is the arc that I felt was most driven by their desire to market something specific which was Wicked and it ruined the story that could have been in a number of ways.

[Camera One]

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I don't think Zelena should have been the main thrust of that arc.  They should have introduced her, revealed her identity, and then done an in depth exploration of Oz down the road.

Sadly they couldn't care less about Oz.  They were clearly in love with Zelena and her connection to Regina.  

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's even worse when we have more info than the characters do, so we know who the villain is, and that just makes the characters look even dumber to us. You need to find a reason why these characters can't figure out what seems blindingly obvious to us. They probably should have held off on showing Zelena in the flashbacks, and they needed other options to be the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke. They needed an innocent that Zelena framed, like maybe a Miss Gulch type who fit the stereotype of "witch." As it was, Neal's "sacrifice" just seems pointless, since Zelena is the only viable suspect in town. If they needed Neal to tell them that the only female newcomer who's making a point of insinuating herself into their lives is the villain they're looking for, then they've reached Too Stupid to Live territory.

Hold off showing Zelena in the flashbacks would have been a good idea, someone who dealt with Zelena before would have been a good idea too, someone from Oz. Shoot, if they had planned it out well they could have had Zelena pretend she was Dorothy, and feed wrong information to the Good Guys maybe point the finger at one of the other Witches of Oz which could lay groundwork for the Marian switch they completely made up in season four. Or use the other Witches from Oz and have them try to figure out which one was good and which one wasn't. Almost anything but what they did so the characters don't look stupid for not being suspicious of the only person they don't know acting completely suspicious. 

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Speaking of dumb ... I know we're supposed to find Neal's death all dramatic and tragic, but it comes across as just silly. His plan is basically "Revive the Dark One ... success!" Never mind that it took Rumple more than a century and the destruction of a civilization to reach him. Did he really want Rumple to create another curse? Who was he willing to have killed to pull that off? And then he went through with it in spite of knowing it was a trap. Yet again, we have the issue of not really knowing what Hook and Bae's relationship was. Bless Colin's heart for being all in and making their hug look so emotional that we imagine a relationship, and then there's his reaction to the death and the fact that he acts like he gets a lump in his throat every time Neal/Bae is mentioned, but we still don't know their actual history.

This was so dumb. Neal knew he was walking into a trap and still did it anyways. It also went against Neal/Bae character he never would have used dark magic to find anyone not even Henry. He knew the risks better then anyone after his father became the Dark One and living with Pan. The same person who wouldn't let Rumple use magic in Neverland wouldn't suddenly decide to use dark magic to find his son.  He would do what he did in the first episode look around his father's castle to find something else. Rumple had who knows how many magical items. He'd go through those first and spell books looking for a way. Its also really stupid that no one tried that first or that combined with whatever magic items and books Regina had to at least try and get back to Emma and Henry.  They all should have been working together to try and find away. They can fail, they can think its hopeless or be desperate. But not if they don't try all the other ways first. Show us they tried, show us they failed. 

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This is also when I started really disliking Regina, since she can only see her own pain. She never seems to realize that she's experiencing what she put others through or that others are also separated from loved ones. That lack of empathy is what makes me unable to believe in her redemption. She's still a narcissist who can't empathize with anyone else. They really retconned her relationship with Henry, and that struck me with her sleeping curse plan. I'm sure she does love him, but I'm not sure I'd consider it "true" love, but from his perspective, he's barely spent any time with her since she was emotionally abusing him and gaslighting him. It was Pan who spent the night at her house. Henry hasn't been there since Regina held him prisoner there. Of course, the true love did end up working, but I don't feel like they earned it.

This is when I returned to hating Regina again. I hated her in 2B but I foolishly thought all that stuff was over in 3A. I really liked that she did have to pay a price for undoing the Curse, it was about time she had to pay for something. She'd feel what she put her victims through and have empathy.  Nope, completely wrong. It was ridiculous that Snow had to give her pep talk in which she mentioned being separated from her daughter a second time, while Regina's burying her heart. And of course Regina doesn't apologize or care what she did to Snow or anyone else. Nope, still all about her. When you realized they were setting her up to be the Hero to defeat Zelena by giving everyone else stupid reasons for not being able to help and her having white magic. 

[Shanna Marie]

I think part of the problem in rewatching 3B is that the way it worked out made much of it a waste of time. There's an entire episode about Emma learning to use her magic and Zelena coming up with a way to remove Emma's powers, and then another whole episode about casting the curse because they need to reach Emma, which makes it look like Emma will have an important role to play, only to have her not matter at all in the outcome. There's a difference between an unexpected twist and a waste of time. Spending episodes setting up something, only to have it not matter at all, is a waste of time. The way to pull off the twist is to weave the real outcome in with the thing it looks like they're setting up. If they wanted Regina to turn out to be the hero, they could have laid the groundwork along the way, like with Regina maybe learning how to use magic without anger from teaching Emma, so that she's able to use light magic.

Did we ever learn why Zelena couldn't just kill Emma? There's that whole scene between her and Hook when she's threatening Emma and he realizes that if she could have killed Emma, she would have, but instead she just sent a winged monkey to watch over her. But was there any reason she couldn't have had Walsh kill Emma while Emma didn't know about magic and wouldn't have been able to defend herself? And then Emma got knocked for a loop in the fight on Main Street, so it seems like Zelena could have taken her then.

I think another problem with Zelena is the inexplicably omniscient villain issue -- she knew everything that was going on without any really good explanation for it. She was able to perfectly impersonate Ariel without apparently ever meeting her. She knew all the buttons to push to emotionally manipulate Hook, without any interaction with him before that. She knew all the details of what happened with Hook and Ariel during the missing year, down to his emotional reaction to those events. She made it sound like she had her monkeys spying on him, but why would she have spied on him during that time? He was separated from her targets. She was planning to cast her spell in the Enchanted Forest, so Emma wasn't a factor, and Hook really should have been irrelevant. We saw the Wizard's magical iPad that allowed the Wizard and Zelena to watch scenes from the past, but we never saw her using it in Storybrooke. I guess they wanted the surprise factor, but they could have shown her spying on people or researching the past in earlier episodes without the Ariel-is-really-Zelena twist being ruined. They've done that a lot, with the villain knowing every detail about the heroes and their relationships, for no good reason -- like Gideon knowing what was going on between Hook and Emma.