A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They've seen the Underworld and learned the specific criteria for going to the "good" place.

You have to be a favorite of A&E.  Because, ya know, Cora.

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's crazy to me that S7 isn't the worst thing ever and actually turned out to be better than S6. At the beginning, it really seemed like it was going to suck.

That;s because at the beginning it did suck! (and not in the good way...)

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Whereas I'd hope that Emma would have the maturity to recognize that even though Killian was with her now, Milah was a major part of his life and someone he would always love.

And I do think she recognized it and vice versa. In spite of Gold attempting to slut shame Emma to Milah, the two women ended up working together and trusting each other. 

I agree that the writers did not want Hook interacting with Milah in the UW (we've never seen Hook prime kiss anyone but Emma in all seasons). Which was a stupid decision, because Hook wasn't going to start making out with Milah in the UW. After everything, he deserved to say goodbye to her. And with Milah's fate up in the air, none of Rumple's empty gestures will mean anything, no matter how many times the writers keep beating us over the head with his "good and pure" heart. I'd even vouch for Wish Rumple over Rumple Prime at this point.

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

"Killian, I recently neglected to tell you for months that I had turned you into the Dark One to save your life, but I guess we worked past that during the whole killing you and then saving you deal. But now I find that you were considering not telling me that one of your victims was my grandfather, so take back your ring. Because we need to be honest with each other, and I have walls."

And not just that. She had hidden from him the whole prophecy of doom after coming back from the UW and supposedly learning the all-important lesson that she should trust her loved ones. 

The morality of the series goes like this: the Charmings are as bad as Regina because of the eggnapping and their piss-poor leadership skills. That excuses and justifies all of Regina's rape and mass-murders. But when it comes to Hook, the Charmings set an unattainable standard of heroism that he needs to keep proving himself worthy of. However, it was wrong of him to idolize Liam becasue Liam was actually a mass-murderer. 

Season 5 Emma was berated for hiding behind her Walls, and her great lesson was to learn to trust and rely on her loved ones. Season 6 Emma promptly forgot her lessons, and in fact, had to face the "final battle" alone, and get passively stabbed by an idiot. I still can't get over the writers making Emma buy into a dumb prophecy of death, lose all her self-confidence, and start trembling with fear. An excellent arc for the supposed protagonist of the show.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

As different as it seems, so far in Season 7, not much have changed.  We've already seen 2 murderers redeemed or forgiven - Tremaine and Drizella.  In total, 3 murderers got a sob story - Tremaine, Drizella and Nick (who was a victim turned villain).  We've had the usual for the returning ex-villains feeling remorse after doing bad things in the past with Rumple, Zelena and Whook.  Regina is associating with evil even though she knows better.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

As different as it seems, so far in Season 7, not much have changed.  We've already seen 2 murderers redeemed or forgiven - Tremaine and Drizella.  In total, 3 murderers got a sob story - Tremaine, Drizella and Nick (who was a victim turned villain).  We've had the usual for the returning ex-villains feeling remorse after doing bad things in the past with Rumple, Zelena and Whook.  Regina is associating with evil even though she knows better.

At least in S7, characters haven't been mowed over or turned into mindless cheerleaders in order to validate a villain. There hasn't been a terrible amount of character assassination.

[RolloTomasi]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

At least in S7, characters haven't been mowed over or turned into mindless cheerleaders in order to validate a villain. There hasn't been a terrible amount of character assassination.

Well, we did just have WHook thank Rumple for not doing something awful and then become friends. That’s pretty par for the course with this show. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm more with you on emotional continuity. Once isn't the only genre show that is guilty of this, but it does always bother me when characters get absolute confirmation of how the cosmic order works, and seem totally unaffected by it. There's also specific things that happened in the Underworld that should have caused more lasting repercussions. I hate on a personal level that the show just left characters like Auntie Em and Milah in the River of Souls, but the latter should also have been a big enough deal to Hook that if you were going to do it, there had to be more of a payoff than "Hades has much to answer for." In my opinion, the showrunners did what they did to Milah in part because they were worried that if Milah and Hook actually interacted, fandom would hit the roof that it was undermining his relationship with Emma. Whereas I'd hope that Emma would have the maturity to recognize that even though Killian was with her now, Milah was a major part of his life and someone he would always love. In my head-rewrite of the series, Hook winds up helping Milah move on, which would have been a lovely payoff emotionally for his whole revenge arc: he's spent centuries giving into darkness trying to avenge this woman's death, but ultimately, he honors her memory by helping her soul find peace. But since the show didn't go there, and instead wrote a scene in which Rumple obliterates Milah's soul, we need some reaction from the man who, only a couple of years earlier, had still been on a centuries long quest to avenge Milah's death at the hands of the same man who just damned her. Instead, IIRC, no one even finds out what Rumple did to Milah, right?

I really wish they had done this. It would have been a great ending to Hook and Milah. I also wanted to hear what she thought about Hook's centuries long revenge of her murder. I'm a Hook and Emma fan but I really wanted to see that.  I wanted Emma and Milah to meet it would be interest to have his century long love and his new love meet. How Hook changed himself for Emma. Also, I wanted to see Milah ask Emma about Bae and then Henry. I really wanted Henry to meet Milah. What would she think of her grandson? Of how Bae turned out? It would be nice to know what Henry thought of his grandmother or how much he knew. It would be nice of Milah and Belle met. Milah telling Belle she was an idiot for staying with Rumple or even just asking why she was so okay with being married to a man who murdered his last wife? 

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, RolloTomasi said:

Well, we did just have WHook thank Rumple for not doing something awful and then become friends. That’s pretty par for the course with this show. 

Eh, true. It could be worse. At least we haven't gotten an eggnapping situation where a good character does something bad to directly equalize with a villain. Unless you count Zelena burning Hansel, but she was never that high up on the morality scale to begin with.

[Rumsy4]

59 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I wanted Emma and Milah to meet it would be interest to have his century long love and his new love meet. How Hook changed himself for Emma. Also, I wanted to see Milah ask Emma about Bae and then Henry. 

Emma and Milah did meet and Emma told her that Neal had moved on.

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Emma and Milah did meet and Emma told her that Neal had moved on.

Yeah, but it would have been nice if they talked a little more about Neal. How much did Milah know about her son after centuries of being in the Underworld. Did she have any questions about him? His life? His son? 

[KingOfHearts]

One of my greatest pet peeves with the show are those scenes where the ensemble of characters just stand around while only a couple of the characters have any real focus, with an interchangeable line or two tossed into the background. These scenes could be in Main Street, Snow's loft, Granny's, or even Regina's office. It's usually just a bunch of regurgitated plot points and everyone acting confused. There were so freaking many of those. I hate them so much. Do these people have nothing else to do but stand around in a group? 

Character A: "Villain is doing bad things. We need to stop them. Do we know anything?"
Less Important Character: "No yet, but we'll keep looking."
Character B: "We may have to be able to try this solution."
Character A: "That sounds dangerous. What if you get caught?"
Character B: "It's the only plan we have."

*next episode*

Character A: "Well that didn't work. It turns out, the villain has this other power."
Less Important Character: "We need to stop them!"
Even Less Important Character: "Don't worry, we just need to have hope."
Character C (rushes in): "I found this contrived thing that might help us at the last minute!"

Edited April 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

This didn't actually bother me all that much, because I look at most of the half-season arcs as somewhat akin to a single episode on a procedural. There's an obstacle/Big Bad, and the heroes have to solve/defeat it.

On a plot level, that's not so much my issue. If the plot doesn't change the circumstances, I don't necessarily need to see ongoing effects -- but if the circumstances do change, we should see that. So, I'm good, for the most part, with them not referring to Elsa and Anna's time in town. I'm a bit iffier on characters who were brought to town, around and mattering for a little while, and then disappearing without us knowing anything about when/why/how they left, like Will, Maleficent, Lily, etc. My concern is more about the plot effects on the characters. Even the procedurals manage to do that. So we get the repeated story of Emma learning to manage her magic -- she learns it all in 3B, then has to do it again in 4A and again in 6A. Or the plot doesn't take into account the way characters were affected by events. Not all events are necessarily going to have lingering effects. Probably the only thing to linger from Elsa's visit to town, for instance, is Emma being more comfortable with her magical identity. But when they do something that should profoundly affect the characters, like, say, death, it should matter in the future.

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

What happens in S5 also makes the attempt to generate conflict between Hook and Emma in S6 kind of ridiculous. Once you've gone through everything they did in S5, you're way past the point of "I guess he didn't love me, after all," and frankly, even way past the point where something like the killing of Charming's father and the lie over it should have caused major angst for either.

When you put it that way, season six actually makes more sense if you haven't seen season five. There are still some issues if you skip straight from the return from the AU to the Untold Stories people showing up in town, since there's still the fact that David has already killed Hook and therefore is on somewhat shakier ground about being able to hold a long-ago killing against him, and there's the Charmings outsourcing the role of Emma Whisperer to Hook instead of dealing with their own daughter, which makes David's resistance to Hook in season 6 iffy, but it's not quite as bad as if you factor in season 5. Whether or not Hook's fears make sense depends somewhat on his reaction to dying and being brought back -- is he having some PTSD, fearing he wasn't worthy of being brought back to life, or is he more zen, with a new perspective on life, feeling like he's been given a clean start? If he's struggling with who he is now, then this old crime being brought back might have been a setback for him, a blot on his new life. Emma's "I guess he didn't love me" is utterly ridiculous, given the True Love test they passed and the fact that a god sent him to her when sending him where he belonged. It's kind of hard for anyone in the Charming family to hold anything against him after he literally died for them.

That whole conflict was so contrived and unnecessary. They could have got plenty of angst out of him just figuring out who he was now and what his place in the world was supposed to be. That's why I think they should have had his hand come back in his resurrected body. Let him wrestle with the idea of who he is now if he can't be Captain Hook anymore -- Captain Hook died, and now he's literally a new person, which shakes up everything. That might have allowed them to drag out the engagement/wedding stuff to the end of the season if he had some things to figure out before he felt he could get married. Let the Henry conflict also play out over more than one episode (though that also doesn't make sense, given season 5 -- Henry and Hook picked out the house they were presumably going to live in together, then Henry insisted on going to the Underworld to save Hook, but then in season 6 he's going all "you're not my real dad" and being a jerk about Hook moving in).

[Camera One]

I don't think Hook sacrificing himself to save Emma in Season 5 necessarily means everyone lost the right to feel upset or angry when they found out he had killed David's father in the past.  Human feelings are complex, and I can see a scenario where David might want to let it go, but can't fully.  I can also see how Hook might still feel guilty about it and not want to tell Emma or David.  Hook as a character might have won over a major segment of the audience where he could no wrong, but in a real life situation, I can see how he might still face mixed feelings and an uphill battle for acceptance and forgiveness.  Doubt in people is very normal.  One thing that makes Hook work as a redeemed villain is that he is his harshest critic.  Having said that, I really hated the retcon that he killed David's dad and I pretty much ignore it because how it happened just didn't mesh with his character the way they've shown it.  Even killing his own father was very iffy to me.  It's one of those cases on this show where I see the Man Behind the Curtain (aka A&E's contrived writing).

Edited April 25, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I don't think Hook sacrificing himself to save Emma in Season 5 necessarily means everyone lost the right to feel upset or angry when they found out he had killed David's father in the past.  Human feelings are complex, and I can see a scenario where David might want to let it go, but can't fully.  I can also see how Hook might still feel guilty about it and not want to tell Emma or David.

I didn't take any issue with Hook's guilt or Charming's potential resentment. It was Emma throwing it aside and getting upset over him not immediately telling her that grinds my gears. It also didn't make sense that Charming dropped the issue as quickly as he heard the truth. Emma acted like she was the victim when just a few days prior, she hid stuff too. Even if S5 never happened, it still paints her as selfish and hypocritical. It just got dumber when she was in a bar feeling sorry for herself, proclaiming Hook never loved her. Like, bitch please. You know that when Hook is feeling down about himself, he needs time to go brood. He never ditched you or did anything remotely like that since you've been together. If anything, she was projecting her own "I've got to run because I have walls" problem onto him.

[tennisgurl]

You know where I kind of thought the plot was going for awhile, what I think would have been a decent option for the show? We`ve established in the Author plot that most of the story worlds are basically stuck in arrested development, forever in one time and place, telling the same stories over and over. It was also a major point of the Author plot that everyone in the story worlds are basically playing out a part, and Regina wanted to change her story so that her could have a happy ending, but couldn't as long as she was written as a villain. Now, all of that turned out stupid as hell, and basically imploded the shows entire universe, raised a billion questions while answering none, and seemed to exist to allow Henry to be A&Es Author Avatar, and to make the Charmings look bad and Regina look like a tragic victim of circumstance, instead of a psychopath. However, I think if they had gone a different way with this later on, it could have lead to a much better ending for last season. 

Lets say its the end of the last season, the multiverse is still collapsing. The portals are opening to help people escape, but its not enough. However, instead of Emma's stupid Savior angst, Emma has been focused more on the nature of their existence, and on their universe. Maybe she gets depressed over how her story was written? Maybe in this story, the Land Without Stories was actually used properly, and Emma spent time with these people stuck in story limbo, or who didnt like their story of their place in it, and longed to be somewhere else, or do something better. Her angst about being the Savior can even tie into that if they want to keep it, how she feels trapped in this role, and wants to escape it. So, its the ending, and Rumple has dealt with his mommy issues by killing his mother, and they've stopped the destruction of the fictional multiverse. However, at the end, instead of everyone going home, Emma opens up every single portal in the fictional multiverse, and now that every portal is open and pretty much everyone knows about the existence of the multiverse, everyone can go anywhere they want, and do anything. Like how Henry can just motorcycle around looking for dragons to fight and crap, except now anyone can do that, and maybe they want to do something a bit more meaningful. Storeybrooke is set up as a kind of go between of the multiverse, where Emma and company and company work to maintain law and order, and keep the nastier parts of the multiverse from infecting other parts, and helping people find their happy endings. Everyone is freed from their established roles, and can go and find their happiness, no matter where it is. So then, if they wanted to do a reboot, they could do a time jump after this has been going on for awhile, and an adult Henry now has to go out and find some bad guy who escaped from one world to the next or something. Then we can get rid of the whole stupid Hyperion Heights stuff, but still focus on a new cast, maybe even make the story more about Henry and his new buddies jumping around looking for this bad guy, and build the plot from there. I think that would have been a much happier ending for not only the main characters, it would have been a bigger, more exciting story with more stakes, and even happy endings for everyone else. It would also make all of Henry's universe jumping less stupid, and would maybe explain the wonky timeline more. And, most importantly, I think it would be more consistent with the story that I think the show was trying to tell, and seems like it could have been a really epic ending. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

[RolloTomasi]

If there was one good thing to come out of Emma not being in season seven, it’s that I never had to hear the word “walls.” 

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

You know that when Hook is feeling down about himself, he needs time to go brood. He never ditched you or did anything remotely like that since you've been together. If anything, she was projecting her own "I've got to run because I have walls" problem onto him.

Except that Hook had actually packed his bag and was planning on leaving Storybrooke with Nemo, so Emma's reaction ended up not being so unreasonable. Both were totally ridiculous because Hook wouldn't have left town and not told anyone and Emma would never have believed that he didn't love her. A more believable Emma response would have been that she felt guilt and maybe some level of abandonment that Hook just took off rather than cooling off and working through things after their fight.  It was a stupid story line that had both of them acting completely out of character for pretty much no reason other than some pointless plot angst. Of course, it was immediately dropped when the two actually had a conversation with each other and everything was fine again. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It was Emma throwing it aside and getting upset over him not immediately telling her that grinds my gears.

Agreed.  That totally made no sense and was the clunkiest way ever to create angst so Hook would "leave" aka kidnapped and we would have yet another reunion because A&E had no idea how to write a couple who was engaged to be married.

[RolloTomasi]

5 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

It was a stupid story line that had both of them acting completely out of character for pretty much no reason other than some pointless plot angst. 

Or, if you’re Adam, an epic adventure filled with romance. 

[KingOfHearts]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Agreed.  That totally made no sense and was the clunkiest way ever to create angst so Hook would "leave" aka kidnapped and we would have yet another reunion because A&E had no idea how to write a couple who was engaged to be married.

To A&E, there couldn't be anything possibly interesting about a clash of two cultures planning a wedding between Captain Hook and the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming. Nah - we need to have the Black Fairy walk in and turn a dress into charcoal. That's what we all want to see.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

To A&E, there couldn't be anything possibly interesting about a clash of two cultures planning a wedding between Captain Hook and the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming. Nah - we need to have the Black Fairy walk in and turn a dress into charcoal. That's what we all want to see.

We need to thank A&E for that awesome callback to the pilot.  Really gives you the feels.

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We need to thank A&E for that awesome callback to the pilot.  Really gives you the feels.

I shed a tear in the S6 finale when everybody landed in Snowing's wedding hall. It really felt like the Pilot all over again.

Edited April 25, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I shed a tear in the S6 finale when everybody landed in Snowing's wedding hall. It really felt like the Pilot all over again.

 

It will be so rewarding if Dr. Facilier and Mother Gothel trashes the place and sets it on fire for the S7 finale. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Because I hate myself so much, I watched the ending montage from the S6 finale. It's funny how unhappy it actually is, seeing as the villains win. Regina gets to be queen and rule the town unopposed, Rumple gets Belle and a son despite numerous murders, and the Evil Queen is engaged to Robin Hood. It's depressing once you think about it.

The Last Supper scene looked like they were filming an Olive Garden commercial, LOL.

Quote

It will be so rewarding if Dr. Facilier and Mother Gothel trashes the place and sets it on fire for the S7 finale. 

In a plot twist, Facilier and Gothel will be making out in a closet. It'll be a nostalgic callback to Greg/Tamara.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Because I hate myself so much, I watched the ending montage from the S6 finale. It's funny how unhappy it actually is, seeing as the villains win. Regina gets to be queen and rule the town unopposed, Rumple gets Belle and a son despite numerous murders, and the Evil Queen is engaged to Robin Hood. It's depressing once you think about it.

The Last Supper scene looked like they were filming an Olive Garden commercial, LOL.

To A&E, it was the picture of perfection.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

To A&E, it was the picture of perfection.

It's almost like they're portraying the Dark Curse as a good thing that happened.

[Camera One]

I'm still surprised the final alt reality isn't "If Rumple and Regina didn't Enact the Dark Curse, Everyone's Lives Would Be Worse".

[KingOfHearts]

55 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Except that Hook had actually packed his bag and was planning on leaving Storybrooke with Nemo, so Emma's reaction ended up not being so unreasonable.

But why would Hook leave behind his valuables?

Edited April 25, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I don't think Hook sacrificing himself to save Emma in Season 5 necessarily means everyone lost the right to feel upset or angry when they found out he had killed David's father in the past.  Human feelings are complex, and I can see a scenario where David might want to let it go, but can't fully.  I can also see how Hook might still feel guilty about it and not want to tell Emma or David.

I didn't take any issue with Hook's guilt or Charming's potential resentment. It was Emma throwing it aside and getting upset over him not immediately telling her that grinds my gears. It also didn't make sense that Charming dropped the issue as quickly as he heard the truth. Emma acted like she was the victim when just a few days prior, she hid stuff too. Even if S5 never happened, it still paints her as selfish and hypocritical.

That was my problem with it too (starting with how illogical and OOC it was for Hook to kill someone to protect his reputation as a...pirate? what?). 

But yeah--his guilt was completely natural, and it would have been natural for David to resent him for it, or at the very least, struggle to forgive him inspite of everything. It's not like David knew what he was doing in the AU when he stabbed Hook. But they had all moved to that stage where this kind of situation should have been resolved with maturity. I know this is TV and things will be dragged out, but this was more-badly written than soap-operas. For Emma to recognize her grandfather whom she had never seen from the glimpse of Hook's dream-catcher TV was so unbelievable. And her subsequent behavior was drama queen-level tantrum throwing completely unrealistic for Emma at that stage. 

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

Except that Hook had actually packed his bag and was planning on leaving Storybrooke with Nemo, so Emma's reaction ended up not being so unreasonable. 

Well--she kicked him out of the house saying not to come back until he had figured out how to be honest with her (or something. I don't remember the exact words). So, he went to Nemo--the one person who actually was treating him with kindness in the hope that he would help him to deal with his low self-esteem issues. But even then, he didn't actually want to go through with leaving. But I was forgetting what show I was watching. Having a thought is as bad as acting on it, and the genie can twist any stray thought you have into an Alternate Universe that retroactively existed all along.

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm still surprised the final alt reality isn't "If Rumple and Regina didn't Enact the Dark Curse, Everyone's Lives Would Be Worse".

I think they already beat us on the head with that idea, starting with Ruby in Season 2, to Emma in the Wish Realm. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I don't think Hook sacrificing himself to save Emma in Season 5 necessarily means everyone lost the right to feel upset or angry when they found out he had killed David's father in the past.  Human feelings are complex, and I can see a scenario where David might want to let it go, but can't fully. 

It would have been lovely if that's what we'd seen play out. How do you deal with someone who has wronged you horribly, but to whom you also owe everything, and when you have memories of doing great harm to him (David's not responsible for killing Hook in the AU, but it seems like he has memories of having done so, so he would at least have the memory of what it felt like to kill him, so would it affect any future anger if he already knew what it was like to run a sword through him?)? Unfortunately, they never got into or addressed David's feelings about Hook killing his father. My issue was with the Standard Issue Captain Charming Episode setup, where David was being all grumbly and resistant to Hook marrying his daughter and pulling Hook into his scheme because he was a horrible dishonest pirate after Hook got himself mortally wounded saving Snow's life and sacrificed himself to save all of them from the Darkness. Not to mention jumping through goodness knows how many portals on Emma's behalf, giving up everything he owned to reunite Emma with her family, and mediating between Emma and her parents when she was upset about the eggnapping. When you frequently turn to the guy for help dealing with your daughter because you know he has a way of getting through to her and helping her work through things, it's a bit much to then object to the guy dating her.

It was definitely a case of The Men Behind the Curtain, where they were quite obviously stacking the deck in Hook's favor, in spite of the horrible deed. But then the horrible deed was also terribly contrived, with Hook, who's always been afraid of not being seen as a terrible pirate killing a witness to a crime, in spite of the fact that at the time he lived in Neverland and was out of reach of the law.

18 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Well--she kicked him out of the house saying not to come back until he had figured out how to be honest with her (or something. I don't remember the exact words). So, he went to Nemo--the one person who actually was treating him with kindness in the hope that he would help him to deal with his low self-esteem issues.

Yeah, she gave back the ring and kicked him out, telling him not to come back until he figured it out (I think she was pretty vague on what she wanted him to figure out, and there was no yardstick for evaluating what would even count as figuring it out). So he went to figure it out. He probably should have left a note, but he did leave his valuables behind and took only a small bag (probably some clean underwear, since he doesn't seem to change clothes). It might have made sense for Emma to be upset at his departure, since he didn't leave a note or tell anyone what he was doing, and when she told him to go figure things out, she didn't mean leaving town. The problem was her immediately jumping to the conclusion that he'd left for good and that he'd never really loved her, and taking his stuff out to the shed the very next day. Plus, she didn't even consider the possibility that something had happened to him, when that turned out to be the case. Didn't he even leave his bag on the docks when he boarded the ship to say he wasn't coming? And considering that his brother was also on the crew, him boarding that ship wasn't necessarily even proof that he was leaving. He might have been saying goodbye to his brother when something went wrong.

All of her behavior was so out of character that I kept expecting to learn she'd been put under some kind of spell.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's almost like they're portraying the Dark Curse as a good thing that happened.

Of course it was a good thing! Because if there was no Dark Curse, Emma would be a happy princess, and how LAME is that, am I right? And they ended up accepting Regina as Queen anyway, so, really, they just should have acknowledged Regina's awesomeness in the first place. Those villagers really had it coming for not recognizing Regina as their God Emperor. The Dark Curse was the best thing thats ever happened to them!

[KingOfHearts]

48 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And her subsequent behavior was drama queen-level tantrum throwing completely unrealistic for Emma at that stage. 

As a series progresses, the characters need to mature as well. They shouldn't be making the same mistakes they made in the first couple of seasons if we're led to believe they grew. Emma overreacting to Hook hiding the truth was a very S1 Emma thing to do. She always ran away frmo or cut off people who prodded at her vulnerabilities or broke her trust. But since then, she has repeatedly decided to forgive and move forward. This is the same woman who hugged it out after her discovering her parents abducted Lily as an infant, groveled in front of person who repeatedly tried to kill her, and chased after the man who knocked her up and sent her to jail. All the people who hurt her most she hailed as heroes.

[Camera One]

My memory of this show is so hazy.  I was watching a clip with The Magic Gauntlet and I couldn't even remember what it was for.  There have been a hundred and one MacGuffins by this point.  

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

Having a thought is as bad as acting on it

If Hook's first reaction is to pack a bag and plan to leave town (whether he actually went through with it or not), then it is not unreasonable that Emma would believe that is how he would react. That's the point I was making. I thought the whole thing was the dumbest thing ever, but if the writers have Character A believe Character B would react exactly the way they reacted, that's something I can't see as unreasonable no matter how out of character and ridiculous Character B's reaction is. 

For fun, though, let's ignore Emma and Hook's ridiculousness and discuss the horrific episode that follows where Emma is heartbroken and examine the complete and utter out of character reactions of her family.

First, there's David. He was actually the best to Emma, but then was totally fine with abandoning the search for the solution to the sleeping curse and stopping the villain(s) out to hurt them (I believe Snake!Evil Queen had escaped by then, but don't care enough to check) and going back to sleep for Snow to go for ladies night.

Then there's Snow. She tricked Emma into going to the bar and then abandoned her heartbroken daughter because she wanted to get drunk and have fun on her evening out. Sorry your True Love that you've literally been to hell and back for has left you, I'm here because "I have a toddler and a sleeping curse at home. I need this." I get her need for a night out, but apparently playing games with Vikings was way more important to her than supporting her daughter.  Seriously? 

Then there was Henry. Henry, who had once spent time creating a break up basket for Regina after her boyfriend of a week dumped her for the wife she'd murdered. Here he just ignored Emma by playing video games and listening to his iPod. He couldn't bring himself to even look up or try to cheer her up. These may be typical activities for a teenager, but it made no sense for him to act like he didn't even care that his mother was devastated.  Again, who thought it would be a good idea to show another of Emma's family not care a bit about her?

The entire storyline was created to have Emma fall apart and get the Saviour Tears, but they wanted to make it humorous. Wouldn't it be hilarious to force Emma into a girls night? And for Snow to play with Vikings? And have Regina ineptly help Emma over her heartbreak? (Bonus for Swan Queen fans - Captain Swan is dead and "touching" Regina/Emma moments). The whole thing was so badly done that I have a hard time holding any of the characters' reactions against them because I think they all took anti-personality pills.  I'm going with this reveal being a deleted scene.

[companionenvy]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't think Hook sacrificing himself to save Emma in Season 5 necessarily means everyone lost the right to feel upset or angry when they found out he had killed David's father in the past.  Human feelings are complex, and I can see a scenario where David might want to let it go, but can't fully.  I can also see how Hook might still feel guilty about it and not want to tell Emma or David.  Hook as a character might have won over a major segment of the audience where he could no wrong, but in a real life situation, I can see how he might still face mixed feelings and an uphill battle for acceptance and forgiveness.  Doubt in people is very normal.  One thing that makes Hook work as a redeemed villain is that he is his harshest critic.  Having said that, I really hated the retcon that he killed David's dad and I pretty much ignore it because how it happened just didn't mesh with his character the way they've shown it.  Even killing his own father was very iffy to me.  It's one of those cases on this show where I see the Man Behind the Curtain (aka A&E's contrived writing).

For me, it isn't a matter of his saving Emma cancelling out the evil he had done. It is that Emma already knew that he was a murderer, and had plainly accepted his reformation - as, to a lesser extent, had everyone else. Plus, Regina, a mass murderer who has done a lot more than Hook to actively destroy the lives of the Charmings, up to and including murder of a family member, has been fully accepted as well. It would be one thing if Emma, or anyone else for that matter, decided that even if Hook was willing to be a better man now, she couldn't get over his past enough to be in a relationship with him - that would have been a totally valid and understandable choice. But I still think that once you've accepted the guy to the extent of declaring your undying love and taking your whole family to the underworld to save him - all while knowing that this is someone who was once a violent killer -- it would ring hollow for finding out that one of his crimes was killing a relative you had never met to undo all of that. Even for Charming, though, as I said, it would have been very human for him not to have been able to fully forgive, he would have, I think, at least had to acknowledge that on a logical and moral level, it made no sense to be OK with him only as long as his victims stayed anonymous. Maybe more to the point, even if it might have made sense for Hook to feel guilty or doubtful or Charming to be furious, I just don't think it had a lot of dramatic weight for the audience, because the idea that Emma might be unwilling to forgive and that this -- whether the original killing or the lie -- is actually going to be a dealbreaker given the history between them isn't a real enough threat to have dramatic weight.

One sort of related question I've had -- and I'm not sure the show itself is entirely consistent on it -- is just how evil we're supposed to assume Hook was during his pirate days. Obviously, he killed a lot of people, some of them, as we know, for totally frivolous reasons. But did he mostly hold to some sort of code, where he was generally going after people he could in some way consider "legitimate" targets - i.e, ships in the royal navy -- or would he, for instance, have killed the entire crew of a merchant vessel he pillaged? Would he have killed women or children who happened to be passengers? Not that either is OK (the king being corrupt doesn't mean his sailors are fair game, obviously), nor is it remotely OK that he went on missions for Pan or worked for Cora. But, as we've discussed, even among villains, there are moral gradations. TBH, much as I love Hook, there are certain crimes that would have put him in the "not believably redeemable" category for me, even if I were willing to handwave it because the character we were shown on screen by and large wasn't someone depicted as a remorseless killer, even in the days in which he actually was doing quite a lot of killing.

I'm leaving aside, btw, the issue of it not making sense that Hook killed David's father to protect his reputation - that was illogical, but following the show's (il)logic, it still wasn't a motiveless killing, and is consistent with Hook's depiction as someone who was willing to kill when he thought it was necessary for achieving his ends. I guess for me, the red line would be, if he was killing indiscriminately to achieve the "end" of stealing gold from a ship, rather than ends like not being executed or getting revenge on Rumple. 

[superloislane]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma acted like she was the victim when just a few days prior, she hid stuff too. Even if S5 never happened, it still paints her as selfish and hypocritical.

Well that was the reason she was upset - she did hide her own stuff, Hook was upset about it and they then promised to not hide things from each other and then got engaged. And then Hook did the exact same thing not too long after - it kind of painted him as selfish and hypocritical

[superloislane]

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Well--she kicked him out of the house saying not to come back until he had figured out how to be honest with her (or something. I don't remember the exact words).

She said come back and talk to her when he's ready to lean on her and trust her - I didn't really get kicking him out of the house from that nor did I get 'go pack your bags and leave the realm on a submarine without telling me at all'

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The whole thing was so badly done that I have a hard time holding any of the characters' reactions against them because I think they all took anti-personality pills.  I'm going with this reveal being a deleted scene.

Every sentence of your post made me cringe from second hand embarrassment at the bad writing (even to the creepy break-up basket reminder). When this show is bad, it’s horrifically cartoonishly bad. 

Yeah—I pretty much have to ignore most of Season 6 to retain my love for these characters. In fact, I’m planning to skip Season 6 in my rewatch and jump straight to the musical, then Season 7. 

1 hour ago, superloislane said:

She said come back and talk to her when he's ready to lean on her and trust her - I didn't really get kicking him out of the house from that nor did I get 'go pack your bags and leave the realm on a submarine without telling me at all'

This is the sort of situation where we all see it from a slightly different perspective. We can go back and forth on this all day, and still see it from one or two weighted angles. 

However, I think we are all in agreement that it was a terrible plot, and most of the characters were acting unnaturally. 

I’m still astounded at how terrible the writing was for Season 6. While the writing for Season 7 hasn’t been stellar either, it is bad in other ways (like complete ignoring of timelines and pacing, off-screen character development, plus bad acting). Season 6 was sort of spirit-crushing. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[RolloTomasi]

I think handing back the ring at the tail end of a fight was pretty telling (judging from a normal relationship POV). That’s usually not a “take a couple of hours and let’s cool off” move. Maybe I’m strange, but I generally view that as a breakup move. The writers apparently didn’t, I guess, because they were adamant there was no breakup. 

The writers picked the reactions that were the most out of character, most nonsensical, and most regressing for both characters and thought it springboarded into an awesome story that accomplished nothing, addressed nothing, and was never mentioned again because oops, new plot. Season 6 really was spirit crushing (TM Rumsy4). 

Edited April 25, 2018 by RolloTomasi

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

If Hook's first reaction is to pack a bag and plan to leave town (whether he actually went through with it or not), then it is not unreasonable that Emma would believe that is how he would react.

Though there's a big difference between leaving town to hang with his mentor and his brother and figure things out before coming back -- as she told him to do after giving back the ring -- and leaving town for good because he never really loved her. The first was his intention (before he changed his mind and decided to stay). The second was her assumption.

There's also the problem that even the "why didn't you tell me" argument was out of whack. His main point was that he couldn't deal with the guilt of knowing what he did, and therefore he was destroying the memory of it. She was hung up on whether he should have trusted her.

But, yeah, the whole thing was contrived conflict that was out of character for everyone when there was plenty of room for both serious and humorous conflict in the situation they were in at the start of season six. On the more serious side, there could have been his grappling with what getting a second chance at life really meant for him -- some guilt about why him, of all people, maybe some searching for purpose because he feels like he has to make this second chance at life more meaningful, even some PTSD from having been a Dark One and from all the torture in the Underworld. They could have thrown in some humorous touches there as well, with him maybe exploring what his new self would be like, trying out different kinds of clothes, attempting different jobs. They could have delved into the aftermath of being Dark Ones for both Emma and Hook -- were they aware of the dagger or of Rumple's actions, did that create even more of a bond between them as it's something no one else would understand? I'd think after the events of season five, the Charmings might actually have been more smothering than resistant -- assuming Hook would be present for all family dinners and other activities, which might have been uncomfortable for him. Emma might be torn between not wanting to let Hook out of her sight and wanting to enjoy having her own place for a little while. When Hook did move in, there was a whole sitcom's worth of material in the former naval officer and ship's captain from a fairy tale land living with a 21st century American single mom and her teenage son. They did the toss out the Pop Tarts thing for one bit in one episode, but that really could have been an ongoing conflict, with Hook not understanding the concept of packaged foods that taste like chemicals or spending evening leisure time watching recorded theatrical productions while also wanting to keep the house ship-shape and being strict about chores. Was he up at the crack of dawn, mopping the floor while singing sea shanties? The wedding planning among a pirate, Snow White, and Emma could have been highly entertaining because they'd all have different ideas of what a perfect wedding would be, with Emma just wanting to make everyone happy. And all this is without even getting into any of the external plots. Hook's separation from Emma would have worked just as well without it coming after a fight -- maybe even worked better if he was yanked away from her when things seemed to be going well and it was like they could never catch a break.

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

One sort of related question I've had -- and I'm not sure the show itself is entirely consistent on it -- is just how evil we're supposed to assume Hook was during his pirate days. Obviously, he killed a lot of people, some of them, as we know, for totally frivolous reasons. But did he mostly hold to some sort of code, where he was generally going after people he could in some way consider "legitimate" targets - i.e, ships in the royal navy -- or would he, for instance, have killed the entire crew of a merchant vessel he pillaged? Would he have killed women or children who happened to be passengers? Not that either is OK (the king being corrupt doesn't mean his sailors are fair game, obviously), nor is it remotely OK that he went on missions for Pan or worked for Cora. But, as we've discussed, even among villains, there are moral gradations.

I've wondered about that, and I feel like the show changed its mind about him in season 5. Wasn't his father his first onscreen killing (other than possibly some flying monkeys, though them poofing away makes it nebulous as to their fate)? He shot Belle, but he didn't seem to be shooting to kill, and he did try to kill Rumple, but up to season 5, when he listed the deaths his rings represented, I had kind of suspected that he was mostly talk, swagger, and reputation. Someone who really did a lot of bloody, awful things wouldn't have been so terrified of losing his reputation as a killer. He wouldn't have had to worry about it. And even when he was trying to prove to Blackbeard that he really, truly was an awful pirate, so there, he had him walk the plank rather than just running him through with his sword, the way you'd expect a bloodthirsty pirate to act (and consistent with what we saw in him killing his father and David's father). He's capable of doing the flashing eyes, hot temper thing where he's really scary, and I could imagine him using that to frighten people and make them think they narrowly escaped a terrible fate, so then they talk about running into that terrifying Captain Jones they barely escaped from, and the reputation makes people cave. Not that he was bloodless, but up until he started talking about the people he killed in season 5, I could totally have believed that he wasn't quite as bad as he liked to pretend he was. I mean, he kicked the man turned into a fish into the ocean, and that looked like the perfect metaphor for him, doing something that looks all nasty and swaggering, but when you think about it, you realize that he actually saved that guy's life (I actually missed that on first watch -- I just thought he was being a jerk in kicking the fish until I read the recap and realized that the fish would have died if he hadn't kicked it into the water).

[andromeda331]

Not only does it not make sense for Hook to kill David's father for that reason. They completely skip over the one reason Hook would have killed him. If he knew the man sold his son. That would have set Hook off and probably kill him.

[andromeda331]

23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But, yeah, the whole thing was contrived conflict that was out of character for everyone when there was plenty of room for both serious and humorous conflict in the situation they were in at the start of season six. On the more serious side, there could have been his grappling with what getting a second chance at life really meant for him -- some guilt about why him, of all people, maybe some searching for purpose because he feels like he has to make this second chance at life more meaningful, even some PTSD from having been a Dark One and from all the torture in the Underworld. They could have thrown in some humorous touches there as well, with him maybe exploring what his new self would be like, trying out different kinds of clothes, attempting different jobs. 

That would have been more interesting. He got a second chance. What does he want to do now that he has his second chance? Marry Emma. Try different jobs. Its odd that he never really thought about that considering in the beginning of season three he remarks to Regina that they've wasted their lives. It seems like he would have changed and also tried to change careers. Tried out different jobs, and maybe realized there's more opportunities in Storybrooke and Land without Magic then there would be in the Enchanted Forest. Maybe he would have ended up back at the sheriff station but it would have been fun to see him trying other things. 

 

Quote

They could have delved into the aftermath of being Dark Ones for both Emma and Hook -- were they aware of the dagger or of Rumple's actions, did that create even more of a bond between them as it's something no one else would understand?

I really wish they had delved into this. Its pretty much the only time there's been a couple who were both the Dark Ones. There's no way they wouldn't be talking about their experiences and what it was like. They both would understand each other better then anyone else because no one else has experienced being a Dark One with all that magic and power. Ironically, they could have used it as contrast to Rumple and finally put an end to Rumple has a good heart. Emma used her powers to free Merlin (ignoring that stupid Henry part) and tried to find a way to get rid of the Dark power. Hook realized how far he was gone and told Emma to kill him to get rid of the power and save everyone. Meanwhile Rumple...yeah stole the power. While his heart was clean and pure. 
 

Quote

I'd think after the events of season five, the Charmings might actually have been more smothering than resistant -- assuming Hook would be present for all family dinners and other activities, which might have been uncomfortable for him. Emma might be torn between not wanting to let Hook out of her sight and wanting to enjoy having her own place for a little while. When Hook did move in, there was a whole sitcom's worth of material in the former naval officer and ship's captain from a fairy tale land living with a 21st century American single mom and her teenage son. They did the toss out the Pop Tarts thing for one bit in one episode, but that really could have been an ongoing conflict, with Hook not understanding the concept of packaged foods that taste like chemicals or spending evening leisure time watching recorded theatrical productions while also wanting to keep the house ship-shape and being strict about chores. Was he up at the crack of dawn, mopping the floor while singing sea shanties?

 

This makes sense. Emma really would have to keep her parents from smothering her. They almost lost their daughter again of course they wouldn't want to leave her side. It would be really fun to see the family having dinner together. Emma and Hook adjust to living together. Does Hook do handyman repairs around the house? Does he mow the lawn? Do they watch Netflix? How weird is it for him to adjust to living in a house after so many centuries on a boat? It would have been so much fun to watch.

Quote

The wedding planning among a pirate, Snow White, and Emma could have been highly entertaining because they'd all have different ideas of what a perfect wedding would be, with Emma just wanting to make everyone happy. And all this is without even getting into any of the external plots. Hook's separation from Emma would have worked just as well without it coming after a fight -- maybe even worked better if he was yanked away from her when things seemed to be going well and it was like they could never catch a break.

 

That could have been so much fun! Snow would probably want a big princess wedding one because she had one and that's what Emma would have gotten if she grew up in the Enchanted Forest and because her daughter missed out on all of the princess stuff. Also because Snow never got to do anything for her daughter. No teaching her to walk, talk, birthday parties anything so it makes sense she'd be trying to make the most out of her daughter's wedding. What would Hook want? To get married on his ship? At the docks? What does Emma want? She's never come across as someone who wants a big wedding. But she wore a cute pink dress for her first date with Hook and picked that wedding dress. It would have fun to hear why. Did she like Princess Grace? Or just really love the dress. It could have been really fun to see all of them planning the wedding together. I also refuse to believe Snow White would think the diner was a perfect place for her daughter's wedding.    

[companionenvy]

33 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I've wondered about that, and I feel like the show changed its mind about him in season 5. Wasn't his father his first onscreen killing (other than possibly some flying monkeys, though them poofing away makes it nebulous as to their fate)? He shot Belle, but he didn't seem to be shooting to kill, and he did try to kill Rumple, but up to season 5, when he listed the deaths his rings represented, I had kind of suspected that he was mostly talk, swagger, and reputation. Someone who really did a lot of bloody, awful things wouldn't have been so terrified of losing his reputation as a killer. He wouldn't have had to worry about it. And even when he was trying to prove to Blackbeard that he really, truly was an awful pirate, so there, he had him walk the plank rather than just running him through with his sword, the way you'd expect a bloodthirsty pirate to act (and consistent with what we saw in him killing his father and David's father). He's capable of doing the flashing eyes, hot temper thing where he's really scary, and I could imagine him using that to frighten people and make them think they narrowly escaped a terrible fate, so then they talk about running into that terrifying Captain Jones they barely escaped from, and the reputation makes people cave. Not that he was bloodless, but up until he started talking about the people he killed in season 5, I could totally have believed that he wasn't quite as bad as he liked to pretend he was. I mean, he kicked the man turned into a fish into the ocean, and that looked like the perfect metaphor for him, doing something that looks all nasty and swaggering, but when you think about it, you realize that he actually saved that guy's life (I actually missed that on first watch -- I just thought he was being a jerk in kicking the fish until I read the recap and realized that the fish would have died if he hadn't kicked it into the water).

I agree that the show seemed to take a harsher view of Hook starting in around S5. Minus the absurdity of his motive for killing David's father, I didn't actually mind, because it is woobifying him a little too much to let us assume that he was the cuddliest pirate ever and, barring his time working for others, never actually did anything all that bad. And I found both the murder of his father and the story of how he got his rings pretty consistent with his established character and the pirate persona he adopted. 

I also judge Hook (and, honestly, even Regina, much as I loathe her) slightly differently than I would a person in 21st century, suburban America who did similar things because they did live in a world where violence seems to have been more normalized. That isn't to say his behavior was OK even by the standards of the EF, but we are talking about a world in which kids were being drafted into wars at age 13, falling into debt could get you in trouble with the local warlord, and your chances of surviving to a peaceful old age depended heavily on whether your monarch was a decent guy or a raging psychopath. Within that world, the pirate life, as Hook seems to have more or less embraced it, seems to have a strong relationship to real life honor cultures like the ones that existed in the 18th century Scottish highlands, parts of the antebellum South, and even certain modern gangs. In these cultures, killing other men for seemingly trivial acts of disrespect was routine, and there are cases even in early American history of juries being unwilling to convict people of hot-blooded killings that arose from an insult. In that context, killing a guy who laughed at your disability would be pretty standard. Whereas something like indiscriminately massacring a group of innocents during a robbery or killing a woman or child wouldn't have been.

Again, not justifying, just gauging redeemability. Even in our world, I'd be more likely to buy into the reformation of someone who had become enmeshed in a deeply violent gang culture and then turned his back on it than a lone spree killer. But I'm kind of relieved the show ended before we could get more Hook flashbacks, because I don't trust them to have kept the character on what I consider the right line of the redeemable/irredeemable index. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Within that world, the pirate life, as Hook seems to have more or less embraced it, seems to have a strong relationship to real life honor cultures like the ones that existed in the 18th century Scottish highlands, parts of the antebellum South, and even certain modern gangs. In these cultures, killing other men for seemingly trivial acts of disrespect was routine, and there are cases even in early American history of juries being unwilling to convict people of hot-blooded killings that arose from an insult. In that context, killing a guy who laughed at your disability would be pretty standard.

I would have said I didn't necessarily see Hook as the "honor killing" type, but then he did spend a hundred years or so intensely focused on revenge. On the other hand, there's a big gap between "I'll get you for murdering my lover and cutting off my hand" and "I'll get you for calling me a mean name."

What I imagined of his pirate days was more quasi-military -- the same sort of things he might have done while fighting a war in the navy, but under a different flag, for different reasons, and under his own command rather than orders from on high. So, attacking and fighting (and killing) people who were also armed in order to take their ship and/or cargo. It might have started with more military targets during his one-ship war, then gradually added merchant ships when he needed supplies and some kind of payoff for his men (there's not a lot of money in revenge), but even the crew on a merchant ship would have been armed. Would a crew made entirely of former navy personnel have been okay with really nasty piracy that killed innocents? Would Milah? But I suppose after Milah's death and after he lost a lot of his original crew in Neverland, he might have slipped to a dark enough place that he became the kind of person who'd murder someone over a spilled drink or laughing at his disability.

We do have the continuity issue that pre-Hook pirate Jones was already wearing the rings he said he took after he killed someone for commenting on him only having one hand, so clearly that much of his background really was made up later.

The era between Liam's death and Milah is one I would have liked to have seen more of, to see that transition between Lt. Jones and the fratboy pirate, just as I would have liked to see the transition between Bae and Neal, but I wouldn't trust them not to screw it up, given all the bizarre retcons in later seasons.

[superloislane]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He got a second chance. What does he want to do now that he has his second chance?

I really thought that was going to be Hook's story for season 6 (I was foolishly naive even up til then!). He literally got his second chance at life and he even said he had a lot more he wanted to do in life when he was in the Underworld and Emma thought her future with him was gone forever so she should have been just as desperate to do everything she could with him. I'm surprised it even took him until the second half of the season to propose to Emma. That should have been far sooner since I assume he was thinking about marrying her for quite some time. He should have immediately moved into the house instead of waiting three episodes for some reason. But it's like the writers and characters all forgot he was dead two minutes ago.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would have said I didn't necessarily see Hook as the "honor killing" type, but then he did spend a hundred years or so intensely focused on revenge. On the other hand, there's a big gap between "I'll get you for murdering my lover and cutting off my hand" and "I'll get you for calling me a mean name."

What I imagined of his pirate days was more quasi-military -- the same sort of things he might have done while fighting a war in the navy, but under a different flag, for different reasons, and under his own command rather than orders from on high. So, attacking and fighting (and killing) people who were also armed in order to take their ship and/or cargo. It might have started with more military targets during his one-ship war, then gradually added merchant ships when he needed supplies and some kind of payoff for his men (there's not a lot of money in revenge), but even the crew on a merchant ship would have been armed. Would a crew made entirely of former navy personnel have been okay with really nasty piracy that killed innocents? Would Milah? But I suppose after Milah's death and after he lost a lot of his original crew in Neverland, he might have slipped to a dark enough place that he became the kind of person who'd murder someone over a spilled drink or laughing at his disability.

Yeah, I tend to see it as a gradual decline into further corruption. I don't think Killian and his entire crew did a total 180 after becoming pirates; so initially, I think it would have been more along the lines of the same thing/different flag scenario you describe. But then Milah's death and the revenge quest intervened, which as we've seen led him to justify all kinds of less defensible stuff in order to get what he wanted. And I think at a certain point, even without that, it becomes harder to keep to the already strained moral lines you've set for yourself; how long can you adopt the pose of a ruthless pirate without becoming one? Hence, if you spent a couple of centuries in a world steeped in senseless violence, and in fact cultivate a whole self-image predicated on being the most ruthless pirate of them all, you do get to the point where you're capable of some decided not justifiable brutality.

Even so, I do believe - and canon never contradicted it -- that there were lines Hook didn't cross. He cited the killings of the people whose rings he took as examples of the worst he had done, so I don't think there's something like the slaughter of a family he held up for cash in a bar or massacring the crew of a civilian ship in his background. Although if the show had continued another season before the reboot, who knows what we would have found out. Like, I don't buy for a second that Snowing would have gone through with the eggnapping, especially under such a silly pretext, but according to canon, they did. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by companionenvy

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would have said I didn't necessarily see Hook as the "honor killing" type, but then he did spend a hundred years or so intensely focused on revenge. On the other hand, there's a big gap between "I'll get you for murdering my lover and cutting off my hand" and "I'll get you for calling me a mean name."

Oh, look - you just pointed out what makes Regina so irredeemable. There's a difference between, "you're trying to stop from getting my revenge, so I have to kill you" and "this jester isn't funny, I'll just kill him because I'm having a mood swing." That is why Regina giving up on her revenge against Snow didn't actually fix anything. Take out Snow, and she was still a freaking psychopath who murdered people for breathing within a mile radius. 

[Rumsy4]

She still jokes about wanting to be the one to murder someone, whether it her her beloved sister or her protegee-turned-enemy Drizella. At least she's not murdering people on a whim now.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, superloislane said:

I really thought that was going to be Hook's story for season 6 (I was foolishly naive even up til then!). He literally got his second chance at life and he even said he had a lot more he wanted to do in life when he was in the Underworld and Emma thought her future with him was gone forever so she should have been just as desperate to do everything she could with him. I'm surprised it even took him until the second half of the season to propose to Emma. That should have been far sooner since I assume he was thinking about marrying her for quite some time. He should have immediately moved into the house instead of waiting three episodes for some reason. But it's like the writers and characters all forgot he was dead two minutes ago.

Not to mention, they've just learned that "unfinished business" is the guiding principle of the afterlife. The way to avoid the Underworld and go straight to "heaven" is to leave no unfinished business when you die. You'd think all of these people would be jumping to do things, not putting anything off. Don't wait to move in together, get engaged, say you love someone. That kind of knowledge, seeing it firsthand and not just in religious scriptures, would be a real attitude changer.

But the characters did forget Hook died. After Belle got de-boxed and out of the sleeping curse -- which she went into in the Underworld -- she wasn't the least bit surprised to see Hook still alive. You'd think there would at least have been a comment about how Emma's mission must have been a success.

I think there were potential reasons for Hook to not move in immediately -- if there had been some kind of PTSD thing going on and he was waking up with nightmares and didn't want to burden Emma with that until he dealt with it, if he had a burst of old-fashionedness and wanted to wait until their wedding to move in, feeling the need to look after Belle while she was living on the ship, worried that Henry wasn't keen on it and wanting to work through things with him first so Hook wouldn't be coming between Emma and her son. But the reasons they did give (Emma's visions/shaking hands) were so contrived.

55 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

There's a difference between, "you're trying to stop from getting my revenge, so I have to kill you" and "this jester isn't funny, I'll just kill him because I'm having a mood swing."

Or worse: "You're getting married on the anniversary of the day the person I loved died, so I have to kill you. Never mind that you never met the guy and had no reason not to get married that day. No one else is allowed to be happy when I'm unhappy."

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I've wondered about that, and I feel like the show changed its mind about him in season 5.

Not to get all paranoid, but I always wondered if they doubled down on Hooks villain cred for the same reason they ret conned bad deeds into the good guys backstories: To make their pet villains look better, and because adding morally dark stuff in peoples backstories (or learning pointless lessons) is basically all they had in their wheelhouse after awhile. By making people look worse, they feel like they can make Regina and Rumple look better. When they run out of backstory, they either come up with really stupid stuff for the flashbacks (how did Emma get her jacket?) or stuff that they think is cool, but is mostly crappy and messes with the characters (egg napping), and they keep doing the same stuff, over and over. For Hook, this was a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, A&E did have some interest in Hook, so he wasn't ignored the way a lot of other characters were. On the other hand, a lot of stuff they gave him either didnt make much sense, or made him look like more of an asshole than we thought he was. 

As for the Hook/Emma kind of break up fight, it was so stupid, I hardly even felt anything beyond irritation. I didnt feel upset or sad, despite being a serious CaptainSwan shipper, because it wasn't really framed as a real fight that I bought. They both (especially Emma) acted so out of character, and their fight escalated so quickly, and seemed to ignore any character development that they'd had, that I knew they would get back together as soon as Hook got back. Because whole their fight started out as an actual thing, it ended up being about nothing at all! Thats not getting into how no one seemed to give a shit that Emma's fiance had left, after they just went back to the afterlife to drag his ass home, and how this partially just seemed to exist to make Emma miserable some more, the whole thing was just so lame. Even by the low standards of "lets find some reason for the couple to break up to create stupid fake drama!", that was REALLY lame. 

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Not to get all paranoid, but I always wondered if they doubled down on Hooks villain cred for the same reason they ret conned bad deeds into the good guys backstories: To make their pet villains look better, and because adding morally dark stuff in peoples backstories (or learning pointless lessons) is basically all they had in their wheelhouse after awhile.

I think the reason is the usual - their lack of creativity.  They are used to a particular pattern with redeeming villains.  Show them doing bad stuff in the past, and then angst about it and make a better decision in the present.  That worked well with Hook until he was pretty much redeemed, so then what?  They were stuck. The only thing these intrepid writers know to do is to add another crime in the past, to create angst in the present.   They did the same thing with Zelena in "Chosen".   We're never meant to focus on the actual victim.  Once Hook was kidnapped away, David's father was a moot point and could be forgotten.  His purpose had been served.