S01.E22: Beginning of the End

[Kromm]

Are you trying to say that Ward is a victim of rape culture? Because he threatened to kidnap and rape Skye, and he made sexual threats against May. If someone threatens to rape me, I am not going to ask, "Are you an abuse victim? Because if you are, I wouldn't want to compound your abuse." The fact that Ward is a victim does not give him the right to victimize other people. Frankly, I think it is ridiculous to say that May was too hard on him. If he had murdered her, would you be saying that he deserved sympathy because of his past abuse? Why does Ward deserve sympathy for killing all of those agents whereas May deserves none for sparing Ward's life?

Not that it justifies anything even if it's true, but I've seen the argument elsewhere on the net that Ward was raped by Lorelei (because his will was subverted). It's actually probably true, although it's mitigated slightly by the later reveal that the kind of stuff he did in that episode is 'real Ward'--not something the episode at the time left us any impression that was even possible.

[Mz Anthrope]

Removed because it's just a damned TV show and TMI for something that isn't real :-)

Edited May 16, 2014 by Mz Anthrope

[Jack Kerouac]

From an interview:

 

 

 

Did you intend to insinuate that doctors may be trying to move heaven and earth to save Fitz?

Bell: Wow, you're paying attention! Awesome.

 

Thoughts?

[Sarahastro]

From an interview:

Did you intend to insinuate that doctors may be trying to move heaven and earth to save Fitz?

Bell: Wow, you're paying attention! Awesome.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think this could be quite interesting. First, it might mean that Fitz also gets the GH 325 and starts exhibiting the same hypergraphia as Coulson, which would draw him into the main mystery. So far, Fitz has always been on the edge of the big stories. It also could give Simmons more to do. She's done a lot of research on the GH 325; perhaps she will try to use her research to help Fitz, which could lead to a conflict with Coulson. Basically, I hope that this means that Fitz's injury will give both of them a bigger part in the main story arc and give them a chance to really use their (or at least Simmons') scientific expertise.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Sarahastro

[Kromm]

 

I think this could be quite interesting. First, it might mean that Fitz also gets the GH 325 and starts exhibiting the same hypergraphia as Coulson, which would draw him into the main mystery. So far, Fitz has always been on the edge of the big stories. It also could give Simmons more to do. She's done a lot of research on the GH 325; perhaps she will try to use her research to help Fitz, which could lead to a conflict with Coulson. Basically, I hope that this means that Fitz's injury will give both of them a bigger part in the main story arc and give them a chance to really use their (or at least Simmons') scientific expertise.

Three team members running around with GH 325 in them may be one too much though.  Unless the point of it is to make Fitz the whipping boy once again and have him be the one who doesn't buck the curve and goes insane.

 

It does occur that "Heaven and Earth" most obviously refers to Space vs. Planetside, it could also be some kind of reference to Asgard.  Wouldn't it be interesting if Fury opened up some closer exchange with them where they could more directly help out with something like this.  Admittedly this one's not likely, but if we are keyed to that phrase for the answer, there are a limited number of ways to interpret it.  One final way could be Dr. Strange being involved, perhaps, but if so it would all be off-screen since they certainly have no intent on introducing him this soon, and in this medium.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Kromm

[colormeblue]

Telane, I'm totally with you about the treatment of Ward in the finale. I did not like their taking away his voice (I thought that was a weird writing choice in general) nor did I enjoy their insinuation that he would be tortured. Shield is supposed to be the good guys and good people do not torture (hear that CIA?).

 

Sure, not all abuse victims do evil acts but Ward was practically groomed from day 1 to become what he did. His older brother made Ward beat up his younger brother and Ward did it because he was afraid of him. Then when all hope was lost with this family (or so he was told), Ward's only option was to go with this scary older guy who gave him hope that someone would care about him and he would have a better future. Then he abandoned him in the woods for 6 months. Where was he supposed to go? Even if he could get out of the 1000 acres (isn't that what Garrett said?), if he left, wouldn't he be worried that his family would just lock him up again?

 

After Garrett came back, he totally groomed him again. He taught him about violence, including pulling a gun on him (probably to underscore the threat of what he would do to him if he disobeyed). Then Garrett became Ward's SO. And I'm guessing the beating he gave him in order to shore up Ward's story in returning to Providence was not the first. Plus, Garrett manipulated Ward's feelings for him (the calling him "son" surely was not an accident) and made him believe that Ward was his protector. Ward was the one who knew what to do when Garrett's tech failed and Garrett even said this episode, "You've always taken good care of me." And he kept telling him he was weak. Psychological abuse can be extremely powerful and his seemed like it was ongoing.

 

I imagine that Ward did his best for the team during the time he was with them. The only thing he truly had to fake was who he reported to. Besides, how long were they a team anyway? A few months could not compete with the years he spent working for Garrett. And then there's the fact that Ward was just following orders, a familiar defense we've heard time and again from soldiers. Ward never seemed to relish his job (didn't Garrett comment on that fact too?) and, with the exception of Koenig, did we see him kill anyone who wasn't directly a threat to Garrett? He only wounded those cops when trying to get to Skye. Until this episode, he never even threatened anyone and that included Skye and FitzSimmons. An argument could be made that he did the best he could for those two because he knew if he didn't get them off the plane, Garrett would ensure that someone killed them. Garrett even told Deathlok that Ward was a tender heart.

 

So, Ward's threatening Skye (although I didn't view that as a rape threat, more of a "I'm taking you with me when I go like Garrett ordered" threat) was out of character. And when did he ever sexually threaten May?

 

Anyhoo, all of this is to agree with Telane that Ward's Stockhold Syndrome and brainwashing seemed legitimate and thus made it very uncomfortable to watch his comeuppance. The writers could have done a MUCH better job with this storyline than they did.

[Jack Kerouac]

Ward never seemed to relish his job (didn't Garrett comment on that fact too?) and, with the exception of Koenig, did we see him kill anyone who wasn't directly a threat to Garrett? He only wounded those cops when trying to get to Skye. Until this episode, he never even threatened anyone and that included Skye and FitzSimmons.

 

He shot those two SHIELD agents in the elevator at point-blank range in the head with no hesitation and no remorse.Then he made a joke about it afterwards. Sorry, but Ward as the victim just doesn't fly.

[DeLurker]

 

I'm guessing Billy's a Life Model Decoy.

We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious!

 

I just got what the "incentive" package was - D'Oh!

 

 

Ward never seemed to relish his job

I don't think your professional assassins working for a government(ish) agency are supposed to blatantly enjoy their work. 

 

We got the Ward backstory to allow the viewers to feel sympathy for him when his redemption arc starts, but at this point I only have a crumb of it for him and that's for having an abusive childhood.  So far they have shown him to have had some level of choice since Garrett sprung him from juvie.  He had 6 months on his own to make his way out of the backwoods but he choose to stay put.  I think it was 5 years after the demise of Buddy the lab that Garrett said he got him into SHIELD.  Given Garrett was an active SHIELD Agent, I would imagine that a lot of that time he was out and about doing SHIELD business so Ward would not have been under his thumb the whole time and could have choose to separate himself from Garrett.

 

I would have preferred if Ward was independently evil and not dependently evil.  He did get a lot more interesting when they started that.

[ActualSize]

I think I prefer complex Ward. The team doesn't know what Garrett did to him; they know he betrayed them and SHIELD. He was groomed, but he also had choices. May had good reason to be angry with him - knowing May, the professional betrayal felt worse than the personal - but she'd also handled the rage stick earlier in the episode, which likely spurred the intensity of the beat down. Coulson has good reason to feel betrayed by Ward, May, and Fury, plus he's been injected with a substance that drove other people insane. He's not at his most stable. Ward may have elicited some sympathy given his background, but he relished the fight with May as much as she did, at least until he lost. I have no doubt he would have killed her in order to get Skye and take her back to Garrett.

All of these layers make the character and the show more interesting to me. If there is a Ward redemption, I hope it's a long and rocky path.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ActualSize

[KirkB]

What I got from the background episode was that Ward has been an emotionless, amoral person for most of his life. This may have stemmed from some abuse at the hands of his older brother and perhaps lack of attention/love from his parents but I'm not sure either of those justifies setting your house on fire and trying to burn your brother alive. I don't think he was turned into anything, I think Garrett recruited him for that very reason. He was always a bit of a drone, looking for a place to belong and a reason to keep moving forward and Garrett gave that to him. Killing, whether it be enemies of SHIELD or SHIELD agents themselves, doesn't mean much to him because nothing really does. Everything he did on the bus was an act. Strictly speaking Ward is not evil so much as he is disconnected.

[kitlee625]

You know, I am getting tired of talking just about Ward. I think I've made my points on him, and I'd rather turn my attention back to other plots and mysteries. Aliens! Resurrection drugs! Fitz! Superpowers!

 

On that note, speaking of Fitz, yes I think it would be interesting if Simmons took her research to create a GH325-like substance to heal Fitz. It's interesting that even though she was not sure what to do with it, her research was enough for Raina to synthesize a new GH325-like substance that revived Garrett and caused him to go all A Beautiful Mind with that alien writing. I think that implies that with enough time and resources, Simmons can do the same since the information is all there. I also agree that it would be interesting to see Simmons and Coulson argue about using it, given Simmons' desire to use her research to help people vs what they know about the side effects.

 

I also wonder if the GH325 might have a different effect on Fitz because the damage is in his brain versus his organs. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Garrett, Coulson, and Skye all had their organs damaged and then regenerated, but how would this stuff work if you were regenerating the brain? Compared to other organs the brain has significantly less natural regenerative power (though some parts of the brain can take over if one part is damaged, particularly in children). So if this stuff started regenerating the brain would it make Fitz even more intelligent, or give him telekinesis or telepathy?

 

But I agree that having 3/6 team members with GH325 in them is redundant, and also it makes it less special. Like, is this something that's just going to wind up in every S.H.I.E.L.D. emergency med kit? Maybe they are going to go another route for Fitz.

Edited May 16, 2014 by kitlee625

[Sarahastro]

It just occurred to me that Simmons STILL doesn't know what is in the GH 325. At this point, the only people who don't know are her, Fitz, and Trip. I really hope she finds out soon. So much of the last season was about them not trusting each other and keeping secrets from each other, which was good in that it added extra tension to their interactions and made their relationships more interesting, but enough is enough.

[KirkB]

Oh, I could absolutely see that kind of scene. Simmons sees Fitz is getting worse, or at least isn't getting any better, realizes she can use her research to synthesize a version of GH325 (like Raina) and wants to do it to help him but Coulson stops her. When she freaks out and demands to know why he tells her about the aliens and all the other stuff he's been hiding. Having that information might make her change her mind about doing it or she might say "I don't care, Fitz is too important" and want to do it anyway. But yeah, if half the team is GH-ehanced it kind of changes the narrative, unless of course they want to juice the whole team and try to make them superheroes.

Edited May 16, 2014 by KirkB

[Kromm]

"Synthesize" is the key.  It's not like they probably have another dead-ish Kree lying around.  It's kind of mysterious how Raina even did what she did, so it's hardly even clear if it can be replicated (and maybe the synthetic version drives people even more batty than the pure stuff).

[Jack Kerouac]

You know, I am getting tired of talking just about Ward.

 

Maybe those of us who want to continue the conversation should move it to the Grant Ward: Hates the Patriots thread?

 

Oh, I could absolutely see that kind of scene. Simmons sees Fitz is getting worse, or at least isn't getting any better, realizes she can use her research to synthesize a version of GH325 (like Raina) and wants to do it to help him but Coulson stops her. When she freaks out and demands to know why he tells her about the aliens and all the other stuff he's been hiding. Having that information might make her change her mind about doing it or she might say "I don't care, Fitz is too important" and want to do it anyway. But yeah, if half the team is GH-ehanced it kind of changes the narrative, unless of course they want to juice the whole team and try to make them superheroes.

 

Good points, all. This type of scenario could be used for any scientifically advanced/magical/deus ex thing that could save Fitz. Simmons would have an almost unbearable reason to save Fitz, while the others would worry about whatever consequences the writers threw in there. I mean, really - the guy declares his feelings for you, then proceeds to basically kill himself to make sure you live. I assume there might be a smidgen of Survivor guilt there.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Jack Kerouac

[shrewd.buddha]

IF Fitz comes back at the start of the season, I hope TPTB write for him and not just use him a device to show how sad Simmons is, or resourceful Skye is, or how regretful Ward might be. If, like the second half of the finale, Fitz is only referenced, I will take that as a bad sign for his character's future. 

[KirkB]

I'm thinking the new season will either start with a time jump (3 months later or something) and Fitz will be back with the group as they are rebuilding SHIELD, seemingly okay, only we start to see snippets over the season that something is off, or else it will start with him in a coma and the first couple of episodes trying to find some way to save him. Either way it will be connected to some part of the big season reveal.

[Jack Kerouac]

I'm thinking the new season will either start with a time jump (3 months later or something) and Fitz will be back with the group as they are rebuilding SHIELD, seemingly okay, only we start to see snippets over the season that something is off, or else it will start with him in a coma and the first couple of episodes trying to find some way to save him. Either way it will be connected to some part of the big season reveal.

 

I'm betting on coma, then memory loss or amnesia.

[Kromm]

I'm betting on coma, then memory loss or amnesia.

I'm not so sure.  Because whatever happens to him has to make sense in terms of him still being on that plane with them.  

 

If it's amnesia, it would have to be that special TV variety, where he's got all of his skills and intellectual knowledge, but no memory of the people around him.

[Jack Kerouac]

I'm not so sure.  Because whatever happens to him has to make sense in terms of him still being on that plane with them.  

 

If it's amnesia, it would have to be that special TV variety, where he's got all of his skills and intellectual knowledge, but no memory of the people around him.

 

Exactly. Laser Guided Amnesia where he forgets just the last few months and still thinks Ward is his friend and he doesn't remember his feelings changing in regards to Simmons. Oh, the TV angst!

[HistoryGirl]

IF Fitz comes back at the start of the season, I hope TPTB write for him and not just use him a device to show how sad Simmons is, or resourceful Skye is, or how regretful Ward might be. If, like the second half of the finale, Fitz is only referenced, I will take that as a bad sign for his character's future. 

The new Verizon AOS Classified episode has their Marvel consultant on with Iain, Elizabeth and Chloe.  The host tries to find out S2 spoilers since she was one of the few people that knew Ward's fate from episode 1 and she yammers about how she can't spill secrets, etc.  And then in the course them going back and forth, the host asks about Fitz and she goes, something to effect of "how about this, Fitz dies. There I said it!" Which was obviously not at all a spoiler since she was implying the exact opposite happens (since she said she knows the direction for Fitz, why would she give that as a spoiler?) 

 

Exactly. Laser Guided Amnesia where he forgets just the last few months and still thinks Ward is his friend and he doesn't remember his feelings changing in regards to Simmons. Oh, the TV angst!

 

This was implied by either the the EW or TV Guide article (I can't remember which).  The writers/producers suggested something along the lines of Fitz still being loyal to Ward and that that's going to return in S2 because he never really had a chance to come to terms with it all. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by HistoryGirl

[John Potts]

I get that he's "The Bad Guy" , but I really couldn't see why anyone would follow Garrett given (to quote Fury) "he was this insane." And combine that with the fact that Garrett acts like the head of HYDRA when (if we are to believe The Winter Soldier) Zola is. Of course, Zola is just a face on a computer screen, so Garrett might be the "living" face of HYDRA, but unless nobody else knows that he (theoretically) reports to somebody else, you'd think people would start going behind his back.

 

OttoDBusDriver So, none of the 5 supersoldiers at the Havana Hydra lair had guns, but were terrible shots even though they can see in the dark.

NCChic They're like Stormtroopers and Jaffa. Neither one can shoot straight. :)

 

It reminded me of Futurama when the (evil) Brains suddenly decide to leave "For no Raisin!" OK, there was some reason, but it seemed a dumb one.

 

Colormeblue Why should I feel any tension about the outcome of the fight if they’re just goofing around?

 

I know! Black Widow's joking around with Captain America in TWS* worked because she quipped while getting shit done. Here, it was like Garrett went "Well, I won't attack while you're talking, because that would be rude! (and this from the brother/sister in law of the guy who had someone impaled while delivering crucial exposition in Buffy S7).

 

Taeolas When they showed Garrett's body still basically intact, I was thinking comic books right away... No one is dead until you see the body vaporized.

 

I was thinking “How the hell can that guy take a rocket to the face and still be intact?” His body may be armoured but his flesh should be burned off (yeah, I know - they can't show that on a TV budget). Come to that, Ward should have looked considerably more beat up than he did, since May really went to town on him (with some justification).

 

Katusch I get that one can feel empathy for the kid Ward once was, the victim of abuse.

 

You have a point – but I’m still not going to complain about him getting beat up. To quote Will Graham (in Manhunter) “My heart bleeds for him, as a child. Someone took a kid and manufactured a monster. At the same time, as an adult, he's irredeemable.” I guess I could see him as a sort of Spike/Hannibal Lektor character who the heroes consult while he's in prison, but I don't think he should ever rejoin the team.

 

* Apologies to the three of you reading this who haven't seen The Winter Soldier!

Edited May 31, 2014 by John Potts

[Actionmage]

Seeing the episode tonight (Sept. 16), I am re-primed for next week's premiere!

 

We will hopefully see Trip and some more of his granddad's very vintage gadgets! ("...we'll win the day!")

We could see a very cool May-Skye mentor/mentee relationship!

We may see Fitz!

 

I just hope that the stinger from this episode doesn't end up eating the next season. The show's getting it's balance, so I hope that's a reasonably slow burn for this season.

 

Things I still loved about the episode:

*Ace in the hole!

*The Incentive program ( I will never hear this phrase in the same way again. ::shudder::)

*The Four Dead Guy "Fight"

*"I've got a better weapon than a bomb..."

*"I bring the noise and the funk..."

*Anything Leo and Gemma underwater

[DeLurker]

I'll add "lanyards!" to your list.

[Wilowy]

I thought FitzSimmons in the ocean was brilliant. It had me bawling, more when they figured out what to do than the heartfelt disclosure itself. Their brief joy in figuring out how to escape was a wrenching moment for me, them doing what they do best. AUGH!

 

I do need them together. I hope that's endgame. 

[webruce]

I like how when Ward came to see Skye at Cybertek and she had Zeller tied up. He said she wouldn't blow them up. Then Skye told about May and how pissed she was. It was a good fight.

Like how they met Billy Koenig, Eric's brother. He did say they played a lot of video games. And he to was a lanyard man.

Liked Simmons saving Fitz who was saving her.

Didn't like over zealous Garrett killing General Jacobs. Wife stopped watching after that.

Liked Skye reuniting Kyle Zeller and his wife. Also Ace Peterson to his Aunt Mindy. And Mike misled Garrett. To bad Mike and Ace couldn't hug. I like he will work for good.

Wouldn't Coulson shoot Garrett first with that big gun? Instead of all the Super Soldier henchmen? Then when Fury shoots him why not in the head?? A bunch of shots to the chest and belly? But after Garrett becomes "Unstoppable Garrett," Coulson nonchalantly blows him away.

Liked Coulson being made Director. Wonder what Maria Hill thinks about it?

[Raja]

.

Liked Coulson being made Director. Wonder what Maria Hill thinks about it?

At the end of The Winter Soldier with the public presuming Nick Fury was dead she was the highest ranking SHIELD agent around after Black Widow's data dump and had to fall on her sword as she publicly went to work for Tony Stark.