Predictions for the FINAL Season

[Darrenbrett]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I hope he doesn’t flashback to the first episode searching their car. That never rang true for me that a 30 second meeting convinced him something was truly off to the point that he broke into their garage. It felt like a moment stuck in the pilot for the sake of drama. 

Sandra calling him paranoid made much more sense than some psychic sense something was off. 

That was the only thing I really didn’t like about the pilot. 

Speaking of Sandra, I miss her. She was an interesting, 3 dimensional character. At least one of my top moments of the series have included her. Renee is just there. No depth, nothing. I guess part of that is so we wonder who she is, but still- right now she’s just proof Stan successfully moved on. 

Actually, he checked the car because the make and model matched what they were looking for, not because he had some spider sense kicking in.

[Erin9]

I can’t remember when he noticed the car, but he told Sandra there was something off about Philip after talking with him for 30 seconds. That was a motivating factor. Then she told him he was being paranoid. Never bought his instant sense something was off. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, Stan's sense of sizing someone up seems off to me, except when the storyline directs otherwise. He seems so socially awkward, that I strain to see him as a truly well rounded guy. How can he pick up on small subtleties, when he's often missed out on huge social cues? 

Edited April 9, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Loandbehold]

I've been wondering if all the foreshadowing of Elizabeth's death is a red herring. She's been given a suicide pill. Philip's been told that he might have to kill her to prevent her from sabotaging the summit. She's stretched really thin and has already had to kill someone to clean up for Paige's mistake. So, maybe she won't die in the end. I do expect that there won't be a happy ending. It's possible that Paige will get caught and Philip will confess to Stan in exchange for Paige being let go (since she really knows comparatively little compared to what he does), Elizabeth being sent back to Russia, possibly w/ Paige, and Henry (and Paige?) being able to stay in the U.S. As for the suicide pill, I can see Elizabeth giving it to the artist once the deal's in place and she no longer has to kill herself.

[sistermagpie]

Elizabeth's so prepared to die--and always has been--that I feel like she can't die. It would be just giving her what she wants again, only this time with no ability to have buyer's remorse like she usually has. She expects to get away scot free with a hero's death where she's celebrated in the USSR and makes up for any shortcomings as a human being in death, leaving the family just fine without her.

I don't know if this means Philip should die instead, or somebody else, but it seems pointless to have it be Elizabeth who's already half-dead and cutting off her ties to everyone except through the work. But Philip's the one who wants a happy future for his family and people in general--in the US and in the USSR--so of the two of them he's the one who has the ability to enjoy life--he'd probably find things to enjoy even without her. Plus she'd know he was dying for her (and other people) rather than the ideology that drives her. 

[Bannon]

On 4/9/2018 at 9:37 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, Stan's sense of sizing someone up seems off to me, except when the storyline directs otherwise. He seems so socially awkward, that I strain to see him as a truly well rounded guy. How can he pick up on small subtleties, when he's often missed out on huge social cues? 

Everything about Stan has always been off, relative to his stated biography prior to becoming the Jennings neighbor. You don't survive for years as a deep cover agent among hyperviolent criminals, unless you are exceptionally good at reading people and fitting in with them. As you note,  however, Stan is often socially awkward, and doesn't anticipate their likely responses very well.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Everything about Stan has always been off, relative to his stated biography prior to becoming the Jennings neighbor. You don't survive for years as a deep cover agent among hyperviolent criminals, unless you are exceptionally good at reading people and fitting in with them. As you note,  however, Stan is often socially awkward, and doesn't anticipate their likely responses very well.

It's also really hard to imagine Stan being able to behave as anyone but himself. I guess one could imagine that about Elizabeth too, but even with her we see it more than Stan when she puts on a smile for her neighbors. (Plus one could maybe think of even Elizabeth's normal personality as performing a role, so she can switch with instructions and she gets off on being smarter than her marks.) Even in his police work Stan always acts like himself. At best he's just sometimes a bit more threatening...but that's well-within his regular persona. It's not like, for instance, when he's dealing with an informant he's running he shows much ability to adapt to them. (On the contrary, Nina quickly assessed how to play him.)

All of which basically works for me as a cop vs. spy contrast, but not the undercover backstory. Like who would even pick him out for that?

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's also really hard to imagine Stan being able to behave as anyone but himself. I guess one could imagine that about Elizabeth too, but even with her we see it more than Stan when she puts on a smile for her neighbors. (Plus one could maybe think of even Elizabeth's normal personality as performing a role, so she can switch with instructions and she gets off on being smarter than her marks.) Even in his police work Stan always acts like himself. At best he's just sometimes a bit more threatening...but that's well-within his regular persona. It's not like, for instance, when he's dealing with an informant he's running he shows much ability to adapt to them. (On the contrary, Nina quickly assessed how to play him.)

All of which basically works for me as a cop vs. spy contrast, but not the undercover backstory. Like who would even pick him out for that?

This was a guy too dense to understand that you don't joke about your older teenage son making out with a younger teenage girl, to the father of the teenage girl! I'd figure him to last about 15 minutes while trying to find his niche working undercover, among a bunch of Aryan Nation types.

[Ellaria]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth's so prepared to die--and always has been--that I feel like she can't die. It would be just giving her what she wants again, only this time with no ability to have buyer's remorse like she usually has. She expects to get away scot free with a hero's death where she's celebrated in the USSR and makes up for any shortcomings as a human being in death, leaving the family just fine without her.

And that's why - IMO - she will get neither by the end of the show. She will not die and she will not return to the USSR (or anywhere) as a hero. Elizabeth will be left in a limbo of her own doing. What is her life like 10 years into the future? Philip is most likely dead, Paige and Henry are grown and on their own, and she is living alone in a small apartment somewhere wondering what went wrong.

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

This was a guy too dense to understand that you don't joke about your older teenage son making out with a younger teenage girl, to the father of the teenage girl! I'd figure him to last about 15 minutes while trying to find his niche working undercover, among a bunch of Aryan Nation types.

Not a popular opinion around here but I think that the writing for Stan has been inconsistent. It is almost as if they ran out of storyline for him around Season 3 so they parked him and gave him EST classes and a few girlfriends. Frankly, I have little interest in anything Stan does right now. I'm just waiting for that "other shoe" to drop and see his reaction when he finds out that his beer-drinking buddy is KGB.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And that's why - IMO - she will get neither by the end of the show. She will not die and she will not return to the USSR (or anywhere) as a hero. Elizabeth will be left in a limbo of her own doing. What is her life like 10 years into the future? Philip is most likely dead, Paige and Henry are grown and on their own, and she is living alone in a small apartment somewhere wondering what went wrong.

Not a popular opinion around here but I think that the writing fro Stan has been inconsistent. It is almost as if they ran out of storyline for him around Season 3 so they parked him and gave him EST classes and a few girlfriends. Frankly, I have little interest in anything Stan does right now. I'm just waiting for that "other shoe" to drop and see his reaction when he finds out that his beer-drinking buddy is KGB.

I think the way his character has been completely botched, writing and acting, is one of the show's greatest shortcomings. The contrast with another Graham Yost project, "Justified", could not be more stark. In the latter, even the most minor character was exquisitely drawn, with an internal psychological consistency, even with the child characters. I suspect having the novels of Elmore Leonard as source material provided a great foundation.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And that's why - IMO - she will get neither by the end of the show. She will not die and she will not return to the USSR (or anywhere) as a hero. Elizabeth will be left in a limbo of her own doing. What is her life like 10 years into the future? Philip is most likely dead, Paige and Henry are grown and on their own, and she is living alone in a small apartment somewhere wondering what went wrong.

Yes, that, to me, seems to be the obvious tension of the show. It all comes down to whether Elizabeth will figure out in time what matters. Especially because she's so directly responsible for everybody else's choices. Philip seems like he's accepted that choosing Elizabeth might lead to disaster, but that's different from Elizabeth who keeps telling herself that her choices are worth it. Not even just worth it but necessary and out of her control.

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Not a popular opinion around here but I think that the writing for Stan has been inconsistent. It is almost as if they ran out of storyline for him around Season 3 so they parked him and gave him EST classes and a few girlfriends. Frankly, I have little interest in anything Stan does right now. I'm just waiting for that "other shoe" to drop and see his reaction when he finds out that his beer-drinking buddy is KGB.

The first few seasons had more of a clear arc with Nina etc. but I'm not as sure what to make of the later seasons, especially the domestic stuff. Some of it was interesting, like when it seemed like he failed at his second chance with his son or when he was basically a latchkey kid always scratching at the Jennings' door for a family. But I'm not ultimately sure exactly what even Philip means to him now that he's hearty husband guy with his generic wife. Is this what Stan was supposed to be like with Sandra early on?

That also makes me question again why they pushed Henry to the side so much, especially if they intended to do the while "each parent has their favorite kid" story. Henry's conversations with Stan were fine, but conversations with Philip would have had more at stake and also have a big lie in them. Especially if the showrunners always planned to set up mom/Paige and dad/Henry for the end game.

[SusanSunflower]

PHillip may well see in Henry the high school champion he could easily have been -- the smartest, best athlete, destined for a bright future -- whose (for real, golden opporturnity)  bright future was to work as an illegal for 20 years so that his son could thrive with opportunities and luxury and touching-great wealth that Phililp could have never imagined.  Phillip does not either feel the need to endlessly protect Henry or to over identify with Henry's success -- either feel diminished or flattered by Henry's success.  (Some parents are disturbed when their kids "following in their footsteps" meet or exceed their dreams. They get resentful and undermining). 

Elizabeth -- by virtue of her covering for Paige's mistakes -- seems over-identified, over invested or however you might want to put it.  Paige isn't a "natural and may well jeopardize Elizabeth's safety as well as other and the "mission". Elizabeth thought -- like so many first time grandmothers -- that this would be a time of joyful bonding. Many a father has assumed that his son would carry on the family business only to discover it was a bad match -- the heir was miserable and the business suffered.. nuf. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

PHillip may well see in Henry the high school champion he could easily have been -- the smartest, best athlete, destined for a bright future -- whose (for real, golden opporturnity)  bright future was to work as an illegal for 20 years so that his son could thrive with opportunities and luxury and touching-great wealth that Phililp could have never imagined.  Phillip does not either feel the need to endlessly protect Henry or to over identify with Henry's success -- either feel diminished or flattered by Henry's success.  (Some parents are disturbed when their kids "following in their footsteps" meet or exceed their dreams. They get resentful and undermining). 

I totally agree. Henry seems like exactly what Philip wanted coming true. He was protected, but in a hands-off way so he was free to explore things that interested him. Philip might not even think about what he himself might have been (just because that's not possible so why think about it?) so much as just be happy that he could help give that to Henry. So it's a bit less personal, like you said. Less about Philip over-identifying. At least so far--I guess they might change that, who knows?

I always remember that scene after Paige's baptism where Philip's trying to say how good it is that Paige stayed interested in the church even though her parents disapproved. He told her she could "always do that...always be herself." But it seems like the church thing of transforming herself in a Christian wasn't so much a phase as her personality. Now she's trying to turn herself into a Russian spy. Philip's practically the only person in her life that isn't interested in her as a potential resource to exploit.

12 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth -- by virtue of her covering for Paige's mistakes -- seems over-identified, over invested or however you might want to put it.  Paige isn't a "natural and may well jeopardize Elizabeth's safety as well as other and the "mission". Elizabeth thought -- like so many first time grandmothers -- that this would be a time of joyful bonding. Many a father has assumed that his son would carry on the family business only to discover it was a bad match -- the heir was miserable and the business suffered.. nuf. 

That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way but yeah. Even as a parent Elizabeth seems to still look for ways she's being judged and she can't be wrong.

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

PHillip may well see in Henry the high school champion he could easily have been -- the smartest, best athlete, destined for a bright future -- whose (for real, golden opporturnity)  bright future was to work as an illegal for 20 years so that his son could thrive with opportunities and luxury and touching-great wealth that Phililp could have never imagined.  Phillip does not either feel the need to endlessly protect Henry or to over identify with Henry's success -- 

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I totally agree. Henry seems like exactly what Philip wanted coming true. He was protected, but in a hands-off way so he was free to explore things that interested him. Philip might not even think about what he himself might have been (just because that's not possible so why think about it?) so much as just be happy that he could help give that to Henry. So it's a bit less personal, like you said. Less about Philip over-identifying. At least so far--I guess they might change that, who knows?

Insightful comments here on Henry and Philip and their relationship. I think Philip admires Henry and the path that he is on but he can't articulate it. Henry looks to be the typical American success story.

Now the big question is Henry's fate. Does the show continue to keep him off to the side and away from the main action of spy stuff and its consequences? I think that it is unlikely but I don't know what to expect. 

[WTEngel]

I have to respectfully disagree with the feeling that Stan is too dense or his social awkwardness doesn’t fit with his character.

I think it’s very likely that after years of having to act like someone you aren’t, you lose your identity to a certain degree, and when you are left in a situation where their aren’t “instructions” for how to act (i.e. you aren’t undercover anymore) then you might not really be that good at “being yourself” anymore. Consider that over the years of his undercover work, the penalty for him acting like himself might have been death, he probably has not been himself for a long time and a large part of Stan’s story is him learning to be himself again. 

Thisis why his marriage strained and broke. This is why he suppresses feelings of suspicion regarding those around him. This may be why when he finds out that HE is living across from illegal spies and much of his “normal” social life is a lie, he will be broken. 

[WTEngel]

Oh, and my predictions for this season.

The cyanide pill is for the terminally ill wife (Chekhov gun, obviously)

Paige will either get caught or very close to getting caught, likely as a result of her being unable to go through with a plan involving more sexual activity than she is comfortable with (this is being forecast pretty heavily ATM)

Stan will discover that his neighbor and best friend Philip is an illegal, run home devastated and tell Renee, who will then ask if he has told anyone else, and when he replies no, reveal that she is an illegal, and move to take him out - only to be rescued by Philip.

Philip will be killed, either by Stan or Renee during this rescue.

Paige becomes scarred when her mother belittles her for not being successful in her mission.

Elizabeth lives on, cut off from the Centre after the collapse of the USSR, realizing that he life’s work has all been for naught. She will likely end up in Cuba (wild guess...)

 

much if this is just me musing...I’ll be surprised if 10% of it happens! Haha

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, WTEngel said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the feeling that Stan is too dense or his social awkwardness doesn’t fit with his character.

 

For me, it's not that it doesn't fit his character--it's fine for his character. But it's very hard for me to see anything in this character that owes something to being undercover as white supremacist. They have a lot of scenes that convincingly show him being alienated and feeling like he's lost his identity because he was away in a stressful job--he could have had the same attitude after having been to war, for instance. But I can't think of a single moment on the show that seemed connected to Stan being capable of being undercover, or that was a sign of the person he was undercover. Undercover agents aren't really given instructions how to act, after all. They're good at turning themselves into the people they're embedded with.

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Now the big question is Henry's fate. Does the show continue to keep him off to the side and away from the main action of spy stuff and its consequences? I think that it is unlikely but I don't know what to expect. 

I can't imagine where they're going with Henry, though it does look like they're giving him interaction with Philip so that ought to come to something. Of course I would hope that they could maybe use that to reveal some of Philip's backstory, even if he's not outright telling it to Henry, since Henry's a character who would want to know him independently of the secret. If they're finally dramatizing his relationship with his father that would at least be creating some stakes. In the past it was so hard to imagine how Henry would react to the truth coming out because we didn't have enough specifics about his relationships with anybody in his family. 

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Insightful comments here on Henry and Philip and their relationship. I think Philip admires Henry and the path that he is on but he can't articulate it. Henry looks to be the typical American success story.

 

Yeah, I agree. He probably can't articulate it. What's funny is that Philip, too, looks to be the typical American success story, but he's actually a very Soviet success story. 

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, WTEngel said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the feeling that Stan is too dense or his social awkwardness doesn’t fit with his character.

I think it’s very likely that after years of having to act like someone you aren’t, you lose your identity to a certain degree, and when you are left in a situation where their aren’t “instructions” for how to act (i.e. you aren’t undercover anymore) then you might not really be that good at “being yourself” anymore. Consider that over the years of his undercover work, the penalty for him acting like himself might have been death, he probably has not been himself for a long time and a large part of Stan’s story is him learning to be himself again. 

Thisis why his marriage strained and broke. This is why he suppresses feelings of suspicion regarding those around him. This may be why when he finds out that HE is living across from illegal spies and much of his “normal” social life is a lie, he will be broken. 

Really disagree with this, based upon my reading of bios of people who do this kind of work. People who pursue work as deep cover agents tend to be master manipulators prior to the career choice. That kind of core personality trait doesn't change. The married ones make this choice because they don't want to be married anymore. Yes, the marriages nearly always fail, but the work doesn't inadvertently destroy the marriage, the work is accepted for the purpose of destroying the marriage, which means the agent does not experience the divorce as a traumatic event. The writers really would have been well served to watch some of the interviews by real life agents who have done this work, like the FBI agent who was the basis for the movie "Donnie Brasco". He is about as anti-Stan as you can imagine.  No, they didn't need Stan to be a Superagent, brilliantly figuring out who P and E were, but it really would have been better to make him more true to type, not really being bothered by his divorce, certainly not getting sentimental about a beautiful target who he has sex with. The real life agent I wrote of had no problem building genuine friendships with targets, but when they were murdered, it really didn't bother him. It was a job in the end, one that provided enjoyment via manipulating people with great competence. This is missed in Stan's writing.

[Bannon]

Henry has been so absent, so underwritten, for so much of this series, that it becomes extremely difficult to employ the character usefully in the resolution, without it feeling tacked-on and artificial. Man, did they ever waste a lot of screen time on idiotically portrayed operations, like Lil' Kimmie, and Fields of Wheat.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Really disagree with this, based upon my reading of bios of people who do this kind of work. People who pursue work as deep cover agents tend to be master manipulators prior to the career choice.

Yes, with Stan they almost seem to want to suggest he was just picked out for this and it was hard for him, but you can't just put anybody in that situation. In the book I read about police undercover it was very much as you describe. Sometimes they even did things undercover that they weren't supposed to do (like have children) which they then walked away from just as easily. This isn't the same kind of person who'd be putting himself on the line to save Nina. 

Elizabeth talks openly about having a no-tolerance policy for warm feelings for targets because she sees them as a conflict. Philip did have his own feelings about targets that he followed, that did not mean he wasn't able to walk away from them without looking back. Both of them manipulated people and then left them.

With Stan it's kind of the opposite--he becomes quite dependent on people quite quickly without being particularly manipulative about it all. 

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Henry has been so absent, so underwritten, for so much of this series, that it becomes extremely difficult to employ the character usefully in the resolution, without it feeling tacked-on and artificial.

And yet, I find post-time jump Henry and his relationship with his father much more natural than Paige's post-time jump relationship with her mother and Claudia, and there's been loads of time and writing devoted to that since the beginning of the show!

[Bannon]

I actually sometimes speculate that this show would have been better if Stan had never met the Jennings. Like if they lived a couple blocks apart, as a means of providing contrast, with Stan driving past the Jennings house on occasion, or vice versa, without them ever becoming more than very passing acquaintances. I really don't think the scenes of Beemens and Jennings interacting as friends has added much to the show.

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, WTEngel said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the feeling that Stan is too dense or his social awkwardness doesn’t fit with his character.

I think it’s very likely that after years of having to act like someone you aren’t, you lose your identity to a certain degree, and when you are left in a situation where their aren’t “instructions” for how to act (i.e. you aren’t undercover anymore) then you might not really be that good at “being yourself” anymore. Consider that over the years of his undercover work, the penalty for him acting like himself might have been death, he probably has not been himself for a long time and a large part of Stan’s story is him learning to be himself again. 

Thisis why his marriage strained and broke. This is why he suppresses feelings of suspicion regarding those around him. This may be why when he finds out that HE is living across from illegal spies and much of his “normal” social life is a lie, he will be broken. 

I prefer not to define characters and their motivations in absolute terms. Stan could still have been a perceptive agent/neighbor/friend AND have difficulties adjusting after living in deep cover. IMO, it is not a mutually exclusive situation. Stan's character arc has not been written with much nuance. We are told that he was a super-duper agent. We get a limited view of his struggles with family life. I would like to think that there is more to Stan than what we have seen because I initially thought that that character had promise. (And because I like Noah Emmerich.) I simply don't think that the writers have made him a compelling character.

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I actually sometimes speculate that this show would have been better if Stan had never met the Jennings. Like if they lived a couple blocks apart, as a means of providing contrast, with Stan driving past the Jennings house on occasion, or vice versa, without them ever becoming more than very passing acquaintances. I really don't think the scenes of Beemens and Jennings interacting as friends has added much to the show.

 

Answering in the Stan thread because it occurs to me that's where all this belongs!

[Umbelina]

Season one, episode one, Stan nearly catches Philip and Elizabeth, but is talked out of his suspicions by his wife.

OK this prediction is REALLY out there, but what if we have a redo of that, not exactly the same of course, but close enough?

This time, it happens again, but Renee (one reviewer said she's now his wife, a poster saw a ring) is the one to try to talk him out of it?  Or, stop him, as his first wife did, but for wildly different reasons?  Stan, who sailed pretty close to the wind with both Nina and Oleg?  Finally has his full mojo back, not just from the long White Supremacist gig, but also from the Nina trauma.  This time? 

He doesn't listen to his wife, at all, he follows his own instincts.

Now that could result in so many things?  Renee could take him out, or try to, and that could be a "just them" thing, or Philip could get involved to save Stan, or Stan just wins that one, and continues on to uncover the whole Jennings world.   Several other choices here as well, but the main thing is that the first episode mirrors the final episode in some way.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Season one, episode one, Stan nearly catches Philip and Elizabeth, but is talked out of his suspicions by his wife.

 

To be fair, he actually wasn't talked out of his suspicions by his wife. She talked him out of the general suspicion but he still went over to their house with a fake story about needing jumper cables to observe Philip at the car that was the real evidence., Then even after Philip calmly opened the trunk etc. with Stan right there he checked the car himself. For him to think Philip was still hiding something after that performance he had to really think Philip capable of being...who Philip actually is.

Personally, I don't think I'd want too much of a mirror of the first ep because Stan just having a hunch seems like the weakest way to go. Both in terms of plot and for Stan himself. The smack in the face on-the-toilet moment seems more fitting to me at this point.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but this isn't the "what I want to see happen" thread, it's the "predictions" thread.  ;)

For me, it would depend on how it was done whether or not I'll be satisfied, and in this idea, lots of violence would probably be a part of things.  Also, it would give us a reason for the Renee addition.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Yeah, but this isn't the "what I want to see happen" thread, it's the "predictions" thread.  ;)

 

Oh I know! I'm not saying you're wrong. It just made me think about what I wanted to see happen--mostly just in terms of how I think about that moment in the pilot. 

[Darrenbrett]

On 4/9/2018 at 5:32 AM, Erin9 said:

I can’t remember when he noticed the car, but he told Sandra there was something off about Philip after talking with him for 30 seconds. That was a motivating factor. Then she told him he was being paranoid. Never bought his instant sense something was off. 

I remember when he said that to Sandra, and I also remember him agreeing with her when she said he was being paranoid after being embedded in stressful circumstances for so long on his last assignment. Him searching the car really had nothing to do with that. The car matched the exact make and model they were looking for. It was a logical step; not a leap in intuitive power.

[Umbelina]

Reading through the "Do Over?" thread here just made me think of something.

Maybe the entire point of Paige, the reason the writers have refused to drop this incredibly unbelievable and generally annoying story? 

Is that a crucial moment she hesitates, either because she SUCKS as a KGB trainee, or because of her connection to country, you know, the one she was born in, the only one she's ever known, for just the tiniest moment means more to her than the Soviet Union.  Either way, she hesitates, and both parents die because of that?

Or, I suppose one could die, but really, that leaves so many lose ends, and we have so few episodes left.  Final montage, because after all, The Americans loves it's montages?  Just music, well chosen of course (but basically another music video) of a bloodied Paige, first with her now dead parents, then with Stan, others, looking dazed, tears, then cleaned up, hugging Henry, who is either brought in, or whom she visits at school later...blah blah blah, Henry at school watching the wall come down, memories of mom and dad, Paige graduating as the Soviet Union falls.

Oh, and I would be pissed if that's it.

I suppose they could also throw us a bone and we'd get a glimpse of Misha in (now Russia) as the USSR goes down, maybe even a wistful Martha watching on TV with her adopted daughter, Oleg hugging his mother while his father stares into the distance.

Anyway, that just popped into my head reading that other thread.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Umbelina

[CaliCheeseSucks]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Reading through the "Do Over?" thread here just made me think of something.

Maybe the entire point of Paige, the reason the writers have refused to drop this incredibly unbelievable and generally annoying story? 

Is that a crucial moment she hesitates, either because she SUCKS as a KGB trainee, or because of her connection to country, you know, the one she was born in, the only one she's ever known, for just the tiniest moment means more to her than the Soviet Union.  Either way, she hesitates, and both parents die because of that?

Or, I suppose one could die, but really, that leaves so many lose ends, and we have so few episodes left.  Final montage, because after all, The Americans loves it's montages?  Just music, well chosen of course (but basically another music video) of a bloodied Paige, first with Stan, others, looking dazed, tears, then cleaned up, hugging Henry, who is either brought in, or whom she visits at school later...blah blah blah, Henry at school watching the wall come down, memories of mom and dad, Paige graduating as the Soviet Union falls.

Oh, and I would be pissed if that's it.

I suppose they could also throw us a bone and we'd get a glimpse of Misha in (now Russia) as the USSR goes down, maybe even a wistful Martha watching on TV with her adopted daughter, Oleg hugging his mother while his father stares into the distance.

Anyway, that just popped into my head reading that other thread.

One thing I've heard some critics say - and I am not under the impression that any of the them have seen the finale, just from the eps that they *have* seen so far - is a spitballed wish for a spinoff series for Paige.

And I have just one reaction to that idea idea.

 

[Umbelina]

Now a spin off for Henry? 

How he adjusted to life beyond an idiot sister and finding out his parents were KGB agents? 

Paige could guest star as a the idiot sister at times.

It would be a dramedy. 

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

One thing I've heard some critics say - and I am not under the impression that any of the them have seen the finale, just from the eps that they *have* seen so far - is a spitballed wish for a spinoff series for Paige.

 

The amount of time people claim they want a sequel about Paige is the inverse in how interested any of these people would actually be in that spin-off. It seems like a thing people say about good shows with teen characters. Since they're all potential people always act as if they're going to be EVEN BETTER than whatever adult characters are actually interesting enough to sustain a show. Obviously even if someone had an interest in a show about some American woman spying for Russia in the 90s and beyond because her parents were Russian spies, there's zero reason they'd be any more interested if that girl was formerly this former teenager.

The same thing was true of everyone claiming they wanted a spin-off about Sally Draper. No, they didn't. (And that's not a knock on Sally as a character.) It's just a way of patting the young actress and young character on the head. It's practically just politeness.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

I don't mean to knock on Holly Taylor either. I think she's done as good a job as could be done with the material she's been given. I can't think of how anyone could convincingly sell the Teenage Spy nonsense she's been handed this year any better than she's done. It's simply a bad, unpersuasive turn for that character. 

[Umbelina]

The more I think about my prediction above, the more I think it will happen.

Elizabeth and Philip both die.  Paige is there, possibly her inexperience and ineptitude the cause of that.

Music montage of Paige silently screaming, Stan pulling her off the bloodied bodies, the telling of Henry, the future big moments of the USSR plays out in the the montage mixed with Paige memories of her mom and dad, graduations, the FBI searching the family home.  USSR falls.

Will they do something cheesy like then show a flash Henry or Paige in some sensitive job in the future?

Which music will they pick?

Edited April 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

It does at the very least seem to me that their downfall should be tied to Elizabeth's choices  - and recruiting Paige and the way she's dealing with that sems like the most meaningful choice. So Paige being the key would make sense. It's a big blind spot.

It just seems like a cheat to have it come from somewhere else when Elizabeth is the one so gung ho on spying above all else. She's so frazzled and so stubborn, nowhere more than regarding Paige, it seems fitting.

Of course Philip is also spying now so plotwise it could come for him and Oleg. But that seems like trying to make Elizabeth right or shielded from more obvious consequences. Like these other healthier people ruined things even though she's the one clearly mentally compromised.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

It does at the very least seem to me that their downfall should be tied to Elizabeth's choices  - and recruiting Paige and the way she's dealing with that sems like the most meaningful choice. So Paige being the key would make sense. It's a big blind spot.

It just seems like a cheat to have it come from somewhere else when Elizabeth is the one so gung ho on spying above all else. She's so frazzled and so stubborn, nowhere more than regarding Paige, it seems fitting.

Of course Philip is also spying now so plotwise it could come for him and Oleg. But that seems like trying to make Elizabeth right or shielded from more obvious consequences. Like these other healthier people ruined things even though she's the one clearly mentally compromised.

Oh, their manner of death could change of course.

I just think there isn't enough time left to let one of them live there is much too much to resolve if one lives.  Reading that "rewrite" thread made me realize that.  ALL the focus on Paige, that the writers refused to give up, even though they had to know it really wasn't working?  This season finally SHOWING us it's not working as Elizabeth expected?

It's got to be a music montage, bookending the openings endless montages, and it can accomplish so much.

By the way, I hope I'm wrong.  If I'm right, I hope they pick the right way to do it.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

By the way, I hope I'm wrong.  If I'm right, I hope they pick the right way to do it.

It occurred to me reading this that since they keep trying to tease this big threat of Paige getting an important job etc. as a spy, that if Philip and Elizabeth get outed (whether they're alive or not) at the end, which I think we can assume they will in some way, Paige's spy career should be over. Even if they insist that neither Paige or Henry knew the truth, Paige is still now a person with known close ties to the KGB. She might be able to stay in the country as a citizen and everything but if she started trying to get jobs with security clearance surely they'd keep a special eye on her. Even if she claimed she wanted to fight against Russia because she was angry at her parents, they ought to keep her eye on her. Could her parents really be outed as KGB spies and then Paige just keeps skipping off to meet with Claudia and doing surveillance in a hat and then get a job in the CIA? Seems like she'd be pretty immediately famous in counterespionage circles.

Edited April 15, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It occurred to me reading this that since they keep trying to tease this big threat of Paige getting an important job etc. as a spy, that if Philip and Elizabeth get outed (whether they're alive or not) at the end, which I think we can assume they will in some way, Paige's spy career should be over. Even if they insist that neither Paige or Henry knew the truth, Paige is still now a person with known close ties to the KGB. She might be able to stay in the country as a citizen and everything but if she started trying to get jobs with security clearance surely they'd keep a special eye on her. Even if she claimed she wanted to fight against Russia because she was angry at her parents, they ought to keep her eye on her. Could her parents really be outed as KGB spies and then Paige just keeps skipping off to meet with Claudia and doing surveillance in a hat and then get a job in the CIA? Seems like she'd be pretty immediately famous in counterespionage circles.

Very true.  It's not like Paige has shown any aptitude at either keeping her mouth shut, or at being able to stand up to FBI questioning, no matter how easy Stan might go on her.  Also, I doubt he would go easy on her, too many eyes watching that know he was friends with the entire family.

Maybe we'll see Paige in Moscow in the montage, but Henry still in the USA?

[Erin9]

This show could end in so may different ways. Someone is sure to die, but how many is debatable. 

All the foreshadowing around Elizabeth with the cyanide and how clearly she’s been acting like death is imminent makes her seem unlikely. But- perhaps not. Elizabeth is- and always has been- willing to die for the cause. What about her family?  Especially Philip? Will she put them first? Or- also a big question- would she blow a mission someway to save them?  

Part of Elizabeth’s arc has been learning to really care about something beyond The Cause, of prioritizing other things, people. 

When I think of Philip, sure he seems likely to die. Of course, he’d die for his family. Put them first. As a lifelong spy, particularly one who does all the field work, he’s obviously willing to die for Russia, though he’s not suicidal about it. But- it is quite predictable and he needs to take no further character development to get him there. He never did. From that POV, Philip is the same as he’s always been. 

Oleg- oh dear. We seem to be hit over the head that this will go badly for him. Maybe not, but it looks bad. And if it’s bad for him- realistically bad for Philip. 

Maybe all 3 will die. Seems like a lot, but plausible right now imo. 

Paige will surely play a role somehow. I’m not sure if it’ll be super direct because the show is about her parents and their marriage first, not her. But we’ll see. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Or- also a big question- would she blow a mission someway to save them?  

This, to me, is the only thing that would mean anything. Elizabeth dying to save her family is no surprise. She'd always have done that just as much as she'd die for the mission. Her conflict is in which one has priority. 

Philip, too, would without question die for his family or die for the cause. Only with him we know that if he had to choose one or the other he'd choose his family. Like you said, there's no development to get him there. He's been there since the pilot. 

Although, really, there is some conflict there since he's put himself back in the game for Oleg's mission. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Oleg- oh dear. We seem to be hit over the head that this will go badly for him. Maybe not, but it looks bad. And if it’s bad for him- realistically bad for Philip. 

 

Oleg told Philip he left a son at home, iirc, so I could also imagine Philip being protective of Oleg especially because of that.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm pretty pitiful of predicting what the writers do, but today I just had this vision of Paige standing helplessly by as Stan and Aderholt take P and E into custody.  Turns out, she broke down after a long phone conversation with Pastor Tim, who just returned from a long mission abroad, and ratted out her parents.  lol   I know, maybe, absurd, but, maybe not.   She thinks that they will be safer in custody, since spy work is really more dangerous than you might think.  lol So, she did it for their own good. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie Yes- that’s what I was trying to say. The question for Elizabeth is which is the priority. Elizabeth would die for her family- it’s what would she put first that is the question. 

[Kathemy]

You know what, I love Paige and I love the actress. I never understood the Paige hate. I guess it's same as I loved Julie in Friday Night Lights. Doesn't mean I want to see a bloody spinoff with her.

As for predictions Liz will live and Phil will die. This much is obvious. If the characters had been the same and the genders were reversed, the outcome would've been reversed.

[qtpye]

On 4/14/2018 at 5:16 PM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

One thing I've heard some critics say - and I am not under the impression that any of the them have seen the finale, just from the eps that they *have* seen so far - is a spitballed wish for a spinoff series for Paige.

And I have just one reaction to that idea idea.

 

I will be angry if all the great characters get the short shaft just because they are trying to set up this supposed spin-off that no one wants.

[Bannon]

31 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I will be angry if all the great characters get the short shaft just because they are trying to set up this supposed spin-off that no one wants.

As a point of comparison, Better Call Saul, no ratings dynamo, gets about 2.5 times as much total audience as The Americans, and nearly 4 times as much in the 18-49 demo. I'll really be surprised if it gets a spinoff. They might be looking at around 100k viewers in the 18-49 demo.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As a point of comparison, Better Call Saul, no ratings dynamo, gets about 2.5 times as much total audience as The Americans, and nearly 4 times as much in the 18-49 demo. I'll really be surprised if it gets a spinoff. They might be looking at around 100k viewers in the 18-49 demo.

Nobody's really thinking of a spinoff for the show with anybody. But it is a good comparison. When you look at spin-offs like that, you can see why somebody thought it would work. Saul was a character we already know, so the writers can imagine if they could carry a show on their own. Plus Saul had a ready-made world.

With Frasier he was also a character the writers already knew worked and knew how he could work against new characters.

When people talk about spin-offs for random teenage characters, they've got neither. If the character would be aged up to an adult, they wouldn't be the same character. They'd be an adult character in a new world with a connection to a good show for marketing purposes. There's no show there. It's just a new pilot about a dumb American spying for Russia in the 90s and beyond. 

And of course, if the spin-off was Paige at the age she is now, that's basically saying, "Hey, what if it was The Americans, but we get rid of every character except Paige?" Obviously nobody would be interested in that at all. There's nothing about her character that's built to carry her own show. Everything interesting about her is her context. Even in her "spy story" now the main thing that comes across is that she's a pale, wet imitation of her much more interesting (even when infuriating) mother. 

[Umbelina]

If it were a different actress, or if the writing for Paige had been better, more compelling, and more consistent, I could have envisioned a spin off.  BUT, neither was good enough, and I seriously doubt anyone has even given it a thought.

Just fast forward a few years and you could have a non-sci-fi Alias character, only this time, on the side of Russia.  Jennifer Garner was only 28, currently Holly Taylor is 20, and she would be 21 at least by the time a spin off could be launched.  If she were a Jody Foster, Jennifer Lawrence, Anna Paquin, or any number of other extremely talented young actresses, they WOULD be talking spin offs.  Younger actresses than her have been nominated for Academy Awards, or Emmys, and they've even won them.

Breaking Bad creator Vince Gilligan decided to make Better Call Saul because Bob Odenkirk was not only incredibly talented, but also, he could envision compelling stories for him.  While I can envision compelling future stories for a brother and sister that came from Parents like Elizabeth and Philip?  Holly Taylor just doesn't hold the screen, or show enough nuance, and simply isn't compelling enough to carry a show.  That said, there are SO many ways a story about Paige or Henry could be told, IF they'd hit the jackpot with the cast, but they did not, so it won't happen.

I'm becoming more convinced that both Philip and Elizabeth die.  This next episode should give us a huge clue, because they are really running out of time for any other kind of resolution I think.

[Bubbetv]

I would watch a spinoff with Anderholt and Margo Martindale!

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Just fast forward a few years and you could have a non-sci-fi Alias character, only this time, on the side of Russia. 

Right--but of course if you were trying to sell a non-sci fi Alias the last thing you'd want to do is try to tie it to a not-that-popular character with relatively weak skills and motivation on another low-rated show played by a non-exciting actress. That would be like tying your show to a dead weight for no reason. Cut that loose and you're free to create your own character (even if she's still from a family of Russian spies) and set it in whatever time period you want and give her whatever motivation you want.

[SusanSunflower]

(not to rag too hard on Holly Taylor -- who has been given little to work with -- I caught a Murder She Wrote with Kristi McNichol the other night and was reminded of that great era of very young actors who only got better as they matured.  To include also Patty Duke and Sally Fields, Peter McNichol -- even the original One Day at a Time girls whose parts were generally undemanding.  I confess I don't watch a lot of TeeVee ... but even just within the American's, the actor playing Henry has had some riveting scenes .... Paige not.so.much )