Season 2-The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[StarBrand]

Comment on the good and the bad of Season 2.

[nightwing877]

Bad:

Kara not really have a direction and poorly handled arc for catco and journalist. 

Lack of Cat, even though I know the reasons. Still the show will forever suffer without her regularly. So needs to appear in at least 10-12 episodes spread throughout the season.

Lucy and Max just disappearing without a mention, even though we know why they got cut.

James as Guardian was horrible.

Good:

Lillian and Lena Luthor, the best part of season 2 for me. I hope they become the next Lex/Lionel like Smallville, in the sense we get a good story from this relationship being explored for many seasons. 

Alex/Maggie

[Lazlo]

Good

Lena Luthor. Katie McGrath is just wonderful onscreen (accent wobbles aside - I still don't know why they just couldn't have given her a line about having spent years in an Irish boarding school or something.) She's particularly good with Kara and Lillian, even though I'm not a shipper. I do wish they'd let her interact with the other characters more.

Snapper Carr. The show didn't always know what to do with Kara's civilian life but Snapper himself was quite fun in providing a breath of cynical air to a series that can often find itself seriously lacking in nuance.

Superman! Tyler Hoechlin was immediately charming and fun in a role that could have gone badly wrong.

James and Winn bromance. Honestly, while I've never been a big James fan these two were pretty entertaining buddies.

Bad

Lucy Lane and Max Lord vanishing without trace. Now I understand that sometimes a show is unable or unwilling to secure actors but given how vitally important both characters were we really should have had some explanation what happened to them.

Jeremiah Danvers. I like Dean Cain but the Jeremiah plotline immediately fell off the face of the Earth when it was introduced only to stumble back many episodes later with no build up. It didn't help that Alex, the main character most emotionally invested in this story was busy in her own story.

A lack of Kara-centric focus meaty storylines. Alex had two meaty storylines this year (even if one was botched in execution), J'onn J'onzz had one, James, despite his minimal screen time had one, even Lena had her long arc concerning her mother. Kara... had a journalism storyline that vanished for huge stretches of episodes at a time and was a supporting character in Mon El's story. Now I like Mon El more than most of the posters here but I have to agree his storyline with Kara was far more focused on him, and his growth and emotional reaction than her.

Countless missed opportunities to give the show some nuance. I am not a fan of gritty for the sake of gritty and I love that Supergirl is a true hero, but the show has done a very poor job at exploring the grey areas it raises, or even aknowledging such areas exist. J'onn mind wiping prisoners, Alex allowing her father to escape, James' turn to an incredibly dangerous vigilante lifestyle, the revelation that the president is a disguised alien... all of these and many more are crying out for our heroes to have genuine ethical and moral disagreements with each other. 

[JapMo]

16 hours ago, Lazlo said:

Superman! Tyler Hoechlin was immediately charming and fun in a role that could have gone badly wrong.

James and Winn bromance. Honestly, while I've never been a big James fan these two were pretty entertaining buddies.

Yes on Superman.  The writers did a very good job with his scenes, and Tyler was great in them.  

Not agreeing with the bromance.  IMO James was only interested in Winn this year for what he could do for him (James) in the Guardian role.  I didn't see a real connection between the two, even though I acknowledge they are good friends.

16 hours ago, Lazlo said:

Kara... had a journalism storyline that vanished for huge stretches of episodes at a time

The writers deciding to make her a journalist and their execution of it was cringeworthy.  It was a blessing for the viewers when they didn't address it for long periods of time.  

The only bright spot was Snapper telling her how awful she was.  

[Trini]

Random question: Does Winn know that Superman is Clark Kent? I'm almost sure the answer is 'yes', but I can't recall what scene/s confirm it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 minutes ago, Trini said:

Random question: Does Winn know that Superman is Clark Kent? I'm almost sure the answer is 'yes', but I can't recall what scene/s confirm it.

I don't know either, but he does know that Kara is Supergirl and that Superman is her cousin, as Clark is Kara's cousin, so yes? And I'm not being sarcastic.

[stealinghome]

Winn knows. James let it slip sometime in early S1.

[legaleagle53]

22 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Winn knows. James let it slip sometime in early S1.

And, true to his nature and his total mancrush on Superman, Winn completely geeked out upon hearing the news.

[Karlophe]

23 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And, true to his nature and his total mancrush on Superman, Winn completely geeked out upon hearing the news.

Forever "The Good" in any season: Winn and his undying love for Clark. 

[Trini]

So there's a quote from the producers (from a Comic Con interview) where they say that the Kara/James romance was dropped because they were essentially too good for each other and they needed to write "drama". To me it just sounds like an excuse, because there were no problems with them building up to that pairing until the network change. Plus, all her other love interests in season 1 were "good" too. (And if they needed a template for 'two good guys in a relationship', there's Lois and Clark/Superman (pick your version).)

I mean, are all her love interests going to be problematic from now on?

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

So there's a quote from the producers (from a Comic Con interview) where they say that the Kara/James romance was dropped because they were essentially too good for each other and they needed to write "drama". To me it just sounds like an excuse, because there were no problems with them building up to that pairing until the network change. Plus, all her other love interests in season 1 were "good" too. (And if they needed a template for 'two good guys in a relationship', there's Lois and Clark/Superman (pick your version).)

I mean, are all her love interests going to be problematic from now on?

Such BULLSHIT. Forget that I don't think they had any chemistry, but chemistry is subjective, so I can accept others thought they did. That said, Jimmy's whole Guardian thing could have been their "DRAMA." What with him being human, yet thinking and going up against non-humans who had powers.??????

[John Potts]

18 hours ago, Trini said:

the Kara/James romance was dropped because they were essentially too good for each other and they needed to write "drama".

WTF? What with James doing his Guardian thing, there was a natural source of conflict ("I can't just sit back while you go and be a hero!" "But I'm invulnerable - you're not!" etc.) which they actually HAD in the show. Admit you preferred a different love interest, if that's the way you want to go, but to say there's no source of conflict is ridiculous when you included one in the show in any case!

[Lady Calypso]

20 hours ago, Trini said:

So there's a quote from the producers (from a Comic Con interview) where they say that the Kara/James romance was dropped because they were essentially too good for each other and they needed to write "drama". To me it just sounds like an excuse, because there were no problems with them building up to that pairing until the network change. Plus, all her other love interests in season 1 were "good" too. (And if they needed a template for 'two good guys in a relationship', there's Lois and Clark/Superman (pick your version).)

I mean, are all her love interests going to be problematic from now on?

Honestly, I do think that quote is bullshit. I just assumed that they wanted Melissa to have an on screen romance with the network's new boytoy, Chris, so Kara/James' lack of chemistry just gave them an excuse to drop the whole storyline so Mon-El could date Kara. 

Them dropping James/Kara as if they meant nothing to each other was an awful way of killing that romance, though. And then giving James a vigilante storyline but essentially dedicating 80% of it to Winn's character growth was a very, very bad misstep.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I think the quotes Kreisberg gave in the immediate aftermath of dropping Kara/James--when he basically just said "they didn't have the chemistry or audience reaction we hoped for"--were more true and less insulting to the audience's intelligence, and don't understand why the new showrunners couldn't just give the same response at SDCC, since it's already out there in the universe. In an alternate universe where the show never moved to the CW, I DO wonder what the show would have done with Kara/James, considering the audience reaction to them was a big old meh in S1 but Kara/Mon-El is so obviously a network mandate that I doubt would have occurred on CBS.

I do agree that they completely mishandled James all throughout S2 beginning with the crappy way they dropped the romance. At this point, I don't really understand why James is still on the show, as the writers so clearly have zero interest in, and zero ideas on what to do with, him. Give Mehcad Brooks the freedom to go to a project that really wants him and put the money saved by cutting his salary toward something the writers actually ARE interested in.

[emarasmoak]

I also think that the real reason for them dropping Kara/ James is the one that Kreisberg gave: that they did not have chemistry and the audience didn't react well to this.

I have also heard that TPTB mentioned mentioned months ago that Mechad didn't bring his family from LA to Vancouver and he wasn't sure of being able to commit a lot of time to the show, so they didn't want to invest in a romantic relationship that maybe they would have to drop (because with the change of filming location he could leave). I don't have a source for this so I don't really know if this is true.

[kdm07]

The Good: The Luthors. Snapper Carr.

The Bad: The focus on the relationship between Kara & Mon-El to the detriment of her characterisation and her relationship with those around her (especially J'onn). Alex's relationship kinda did the same thing wrt to the time spent between the sisters but to a lesser extent.

The Ugly: The Guardian.

[BobFlougan]

THE GOOD:

Not much left anymore, other than the cast, which as several others have noted, has had some losses.  

I still like Melisa Benoist a lot, but I feel she's hindered by the juvenile scripts.  Tyler can still be a fantastic Superman IF they don't dumb him down like they did in the finale.  

THE BAD:

It's almost all summed up in the season 2 FINALE which wrapped up nothing well.  One of the most contrived episodes of the entire show. It highlighted these now very obvious problems which caused several of my friends to give up watching it:

1. Dumb soap opera/childish dialogue and drama in the relationships.  At least Mon-El’s gone now, but that fixes nothing if Supergirl’s next relationship is as juvenile as theirs was.  And Alex and Maggie?  Okay, they're being bold by making a lesbian relationship forefront, but why make their relationship even more drama and childish than Kara and Mon-El’s?  Seriously, Alex and Maggie’s back and forths have been like a pair of junior high kids. 

2. Kara needs to make better decisions!  She does okay even if she makes bad decisions.  The tournament idea at the end?  That was dumb, and worse for Superman to support it.  And she somehow “powers through” kryptonite to knock out Rhea?  She beats her bigger, much more experienced and longer-in-the-yellow-sun cousin so easily?  And she loses Mon-El only by the most trivial twist. So much for her and him ending their relationship like adults. 

3.  Tyler's Superman went from being the older brother mentor type Superman at the beginning of this season to Superboy in the finale, or more like Stupid Man.  Seriously, he was great when he debuted, but he comes back in the finale and acts like a novice.  He loses to Kara in a fist fight  – okay, how could he stand up to much more powerful villains then? Then he supports her terrible idea to decide the fate of the WHOLE WORLD on a medieval tournament without the wishes of the citizens of the world at stake. Then, he tells her he couldn’t have chosen the world over Lois?  Really?  Where did SUPERman go?

4. The finale's title proved the show has become overwhelmingly political.  Shouldn’t they to appeal to everyone?  I’m pretty middle of the road and the show has gotten so far off the deep end. And trying to make an analogy between human undocumented aliens here and superpowered aliens from another planet who have dangerous powers is a lame analogy.  I’m for immigrant rights, and this analogy is stupid.

5.  I know it’s a superhero show, but could they try to have SOME consistency in the Kryptonian powers?  How does Rhea use silver kryptonite to make Clark attack Kara and not HERSELF?  How in the world does she know what it is but he doesn’t? How does even a trace amount of lead in the atmosphere NOT hurt humans?  And spread so fast?  How does Kara power-through Kryptonite? (which should be impossible). 

THE UGLY:

The White Martians - seriously, I never want to see them again; they're the fakest looking thing in the whole show

Edited September 12, 2017 by BobFlougan

[KirkB]

On 9/12/2017 at 4:50 PM, BobFlougan said:

5.  I know it’s a superhero show, but could they try to have SOME consistency in the Kryptonian powers?  How does Rhea use silver kryptonite to make Clark attack Kara and not HERSELF?  How in the world does she know what it is but he doesn’t? How does even a trace amount of lead in the atmosphere NOT hurt humans?  And spread so fast?  How does Kara power-through Kryptonite? (which should be impossible). 

This sums up the biggest problems I had with the finale. Huge leaps in logic, even for a superhero show.

I can accept various colors of kryptonite raining down on Krypton's sister planet Daxam. Rhea shouldn't even have any way of knowing that pieces of Krypton had any adverse effect on Kryptonians unless she had some to test it on. Then when Superman shows up she whips out some silver kryptonite. Again, how does she know what it does? Unless she has Kryptonians to test it on how can be sure it will adversely affect him? How does she know it won't power him up or something? And why does he apparently stand around her ship and not do anything until Kara arrives, at which point he sees her and only her as Zod?

And the lead. Uggh. I know Daxamites are especially allergic and all, but trace amounts of lead filling the atmosphere, being breathed in on a daily basis, ARE going to build up in their lungs and have adverse affects on humans.

As for powering through the kryptonite, well, in the comics it immediately weakens and then kills Kryptonians who are exposed to it for too long. Here it seems to...weaken them, a little, but being exposed to it on a lower dose for longer just lessens their powers. I think the idea is kryptonite itself doesn't kill them, it just makes them vulnerable. So Kara got a rush of adrenaline, or something, and powered through the pain, maybe?

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/12/2017 at 3:50 PM, BobFlougan said:

2. Kara needs to make better decisions!  She does okay even if she makes bad decisions.  The tournament idea at the end?  That was dumb, and worse for Superman to support it.  And she somehow “powers through” kryptonite to knock out Rhea?  She beats her bigger, much more experienced and longer-in-the-yellow-sun cousin so easily?  And she loses Mon-El only by the most trivial twist. So much for her and him ending their relationship like adults. 

3.  Tyler's Superman went from being the older brother mentor type Superman at the beginning of this season to Superboy in the finale, or more like Stupid Man.  Seriously, he was great when he debuted, but he comes back in the finale and acts like a novice.  He loses to Kara in a fist fight  – okay, how could he stand up to much more powerful villains then? Then he supports her terrible idea to decide the fate of the WHOLE WORLD on a medieval tournament without the wishes of the citizens of the world at stake. Then, he tells her he couldn’t have chosen the world over Lois?  Really?  Where did SUPERman go?

4. The finale's title proved the show has become overwhelmingly political.  Shouldn’t they to appeal to everyone?  I’m pretty middle of the road and the show has gotten so far off the deep end. And trying to make an analogy between human undocumented aliens here and superpowered aliens from another planet who have dangerous powers is a lame analogy.  I’m for immigrant rights, and this analogy is stupid.

5.  I know it’s a superhero show, but could they try to have SOME consistency in the Kryptonian powers?  How does Rhea use silver kryptonite to make Clark attack Kara and not HERSELF?  How in the world does she know what it is but he doesn’t? How does even a trace amount of lead in the atmosphere NOT hurt humans?  And spread so fast?  How does Kara power-through Kryptonite? (which should be impossible). 

I think if the show were executed better, it would have pulled off the single combat thing better. I'm not sure how many other options Earth might have had, frankly. From what we saw, there were thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands or millions, of Daxamites, all of whom are just a smidge lower in power level than Supergirl and Superman, who have access to Kryptonite and advanced tech, taking control of the planet. Re-taking Earth by force shouldn't be an option between the two of them and the DEO.

In terms of fights, there isn't always going to be a strict hierarchy of A>B, B>C, therefore A>C.  There's an inherent contrivance that in any given fight, Supergirl can struggle to beat, say, Toyman or Live Wire or whoever, but then can take on a half-dozen Daxamites or Kryptonians. Guardian can go from fighting human street thugs to going hand-to-hand with Daxamites with relatively equal effectiveness.

I do think the show could be less political even as a liberal, but don't see any problem with the aliens=illegal human alien analogy. I don't see why it's stupid in general. Again, it could be executed better.

WRT silver kryptonite, there's no particular reason that Clark or Kara would know what it was because they hadn't been exposed to it before. The Daxamites had some 25 years since Krypton's explosion to encounter various types of Kryptonite and either see what the effects were on actual Kryptonians (because let's face it, there were more Kryptonians that survived its explosion beyond Superman and Supergirl, as we know from the existence of Fort Rozz) or to come up with a theoretical understanding of how it might affect Kryptonians and put the theory to the test when encountering Superman. Honestly, the show would have been better off just having Superman mind-controlled. It had established two means for doing so -- the Dominators were able to control Supergirl in the crossover episode, and there was some other alien able to control Mon-El. 

In terms of powering through Kryptonite, Kryptonite is a plot device that does as much or as little as needed. That is why in Superman Returns, that Superman can literally lift up a Kryptonite island and throw it into space. There have undoubtedly been various other examples of Superman/Superboy/Supergirl weakened by Kryptonite managed to go Maximum Effort and power through it.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[stealinghome]

Quote

I think if the show were executed better, it would have pulled off the single combat thing better.

tbh I think this applies to pretty much everything about the show. Supergirl's big problem has never been the big ideas (with the exception, I will say, of James as Guardian). It's just always that the execution ranges from "almost nailed it, but not quite" to "abysmally awful" depending on what element of the show we're talking about!

The showrunners are so incredibly lucky they cast such a generally appealing cast.

[4evaQuez]

I'm sorry for reviving such an old thread, but I just finished watching Supergirl Season 2. I have thoughts I wanted to put out in the universe to be transported into Fort Rozz never to be heard from again, until the proper plot contrivance frees it, of course.

 

First, I must say I really enjoyed the season overall. I thought it started strong, and I really loved Lillian Luthor and Cadmus. Watching the season finale, it really felt like the finale of a show that was at least 4 seasons into its run. The return of Cat, M'Gann, White Martians, Superman, Lillian, Cyborg Superman, etc. It felt like the culmination of some several years long arc that we were finally getting the payoff of. I also really liked the visual of all these aliens space ships over National City as it gave a great sense of foreboding of helplessness. Lastly, I liked Rhea. As Rhea herself said, her heart was not going to be changed by an inspiring speech from Supergirl. While I loved season 2 - and season 1 - it was nice to see a villain who had no qualms with killing her husband, allowing her son to believe his father killed himself as a form of emotionally manipulating her son, using all forms of kryptonite, and attempting genocide - is genocide still the correct term when we're talking about the entire human race - and I even appreciated that they showed she had no qualms killing children, sick children on top of that, and she targeted what should be "safe spaces." Obviously, in real life these things are awful, but on a show like Supergirl, it was nice to have a villain who just had no use for human life. Villains like that are needed to really show why Supergirl is needed. I also thought the threat escalated in a satisfying manner and well-paced manner in the finale to the point where the lead dispersal was the only option - even though I question the "harmless to humans" notion. Can lead in our lungs ever be "harmless" to humans?

One of the biggest deterrents of the finale and the season as a whole was the budget restraints, You can easily see when the budget makes for some strong compromises that while it doesn't hinder the show for me, it does make me wish this show had the budget of Disney Plus or HBO show.

I wanted to speak on James/Kara and Kara/Mon El as to why I didn't like either coupling. For me, they both were two sides of the same coin. For Kara/James, Kara seemed too young for James. In how both were styled, in Kara obviously being in the beginning of her career while James was a director (I think that was his title in Season 1) and then the CEO of a major media conglomerate. Kara having little to no dating experience while James was engaged to Lucy. And while I know Mehcad isn't significantly older than Melissa, James looked mid-40s and Kara looked mid-20s. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but Kara's youthfulness seemed blunted when opposite James age - I actually don't know what word to use here. I thought of "mature," but I don't actually see James as mature. I also thought of "stern" but he isn't really that either. He's older, but I'm not certain what personality characteristic, in particular "blunted" Kara from being herself with him. My only thought is his underdeveloped and underexplored enviousness of Kara/Clark, but that doesn't really have much to do with his age, per se.

My issue with Kara/Mon El is that Kara came off too old for him. She often seemed like a disappointed and frustrated parent with Mon El's childishness and selfishness and glibness. She was a mentor to a person who didn't want mentorship. The show would have Kara discuss the myriad of reasons the two of them could never work, and the show was correct! The show never even had anyone contradict Kara's reasons for being concerned. Even in the episode where they finally kiss for the first time which lead to lovemaking, Kara calls out Mon Els ego and propensity to never listen to her just seconds before they admit their feelings for each other. These two, similar to James/Kara, were not equals. Kara has passion and Mon El, and to a lesser extent James, had none. It's hard to see Kara with either because both numb Kara's passion in very different ways. That being said, I did enjoy their goodbye at the end of the season. If only it felt earned.

The Kara/Winn and Kara/James friendships have really taken a back seat this season. I'm not saying I particularly care as I was not a fan of either, but Winn is already more James and Alex and even J'onn's friend more than Kara. James is hanging on the show by a very weak thread via Winn and the Guardian. 

I love Kara/Lena. I know that's a popular opinion. Even in their first episode together, the two just have this deeply spiritual connection. Both are "adopted" and desperately trying to claw themselves out of the shadows of their male relatives. The two have such an easy rapport, and Lena is both appreciative of Kara's optimism and passion while allowing Kara to indulge in it. Kara is appreciative that she has someone who sees her, i.e. Kara, as a hero without having to don her cape. Unlike Cat Grant, who she can only have a mentor/mentee relationship with and seems to love Supergirl equally to Kara, Lena loves Kara more and completely divorced from the Supergirl identity. I also really liked Lena/Lillian and Lena/Rhea. Lena mommy issues helped to really define both the good and potential evil of the character. I'm excited to see where it goes.

Alex/Maggie and J'onn/M'gann are my favorite romantic relationships, thus far. J'onn/M'gann are a much better "Romeo and Juliet" than Kara/Mon El could ever hope to be. Maggie is the only time I really like Alex.

Which leads me to my insanely unpopular opinion, I don't feel much for the Alex/Kara relationship this season. I don't think the Alex actress really hits the right notes for me in their scenes. I find her entirely too soft in her Kara scenes. Also, strictly looking at female relationships this season, Alex/Kara rank pretty low for me: Lena/Kara, Kara/Cat, Lena/Lillian, Lena/Rhea, Alex/Maggie and then finally Alex/Kara. And honestly I would put the Madam President/ Rhea/ Cat scenes above Alex/Kara but that doesn't really rank as a relationship. I wish when Alex was in DEO mode she would be harsher and more ruthless with Supergirl to give a better contrast to the softer Alex/Kara relationship. Alex, as is, just doesn't work for a Kara screen partner for me because I feel I learn more about Kara with Lena and I learn more about Supergirl with people like Lillian, Rhea, and God help me, even Mon El at times. That being said, Alex/Kara do still have some great scenes like placing their hands on the window when Lillian was trying to shoot Alex and the aliens out of space.

Which leads me to a major gripe of the season, all the unanswered and dropped plotlines. While I liked the Daxam plot, and I'm happy the ultimate decision was down to Kara, it honestly became Rhea's storyline. I was going to say Mon El, but I feel Rhea was given more of a point of view and Mon El was just an inciting incident for that point of view. I wish we could have gotten a conclusion to Alex's dad, a definitive defeat of Cyborg Superman - I really dislike seeing the actor in that metal mask. Again how the budget stops some of the loftier goals of the show. And a better Kara is a journalist storyline. I use the word "storyline" loosely because I'm not certain there was one. Catco became useless. James was a terrible boss and often Snapper Carr seemed more authoritative than he. And once Kara was fired, James was literally the only major character who had a reason for being there. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I wish the showed had either phased Catco out entirely or they would have boosted the roles of Snapper Carr and Eve Tessmacher (sp?). James is just not a character Kara works well with and he cannot be an anchor.

Lastly, I enjoyed the Saturday morning cartoon nature of the show, and I do not mean that as an insult. The episodes were easy and breezy to watch. I think, overall, it does a good job of balancing its politics with its superhero nature, although at times it can go too far especially when Cat is around. I also like how the show explores the idea of being a survivor of either personal tragedy or cataclysmic ones and how that alters people forever and that the show does allow Kara/Supergirl to be a tad judgmental, abrasive, and even combative to balance out her optimism and idealism.

Edited November 27, 2021 by 4evaQuez