Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[tangerine95]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Cersei blew up a Sept full of people, murdering hundreds and I did not see her doing any PR campaign about being benevolent and kind? She got the Tarlys to side with her based on greed - Jaime promising them Highgarden -  and xenophobia about the Dothraki savages. Just like Umber turned against the Starks/Jon because he brought the Wildlings across the wall. Cersei is not capitalizing on being nice. She is parading her prisoners in chains through the streets and slowly poisoning them to death in her dungeons. 

Does Tyrion think that a long seige of KL would give Dany good PR among the people of KL?

The Tarlys had already made up their mind. Randyll repeatedly insults Dany in front of everyone, refuses to bend the knee, is a traitor, refuses to go to the wall and ultimately left Dany with no choice.

Which lord is ruling with kindness here? Sansa wanted to throw children from their homes - even after they bend the knee and pledge allegiance to Jon! Jon himself only allows them to continue in their ancestral homes because they bend the knee. Or they would have been out with the Smallfolk, forced to survive like Arya. Olenna advises Dany to be a dragon. Ellaria poisoned Myrcella. The Greyjoys are pirates and raiders.

Who has good PR about being this nice, kind, benevolent ruler in Westeros? GRRM himself has said that it is not enough to be a good ruler but that one has to have the power and strength to take the throne and hold it. That's how Aegon the conqueror did it. That's why Robert Baratheon's rule fell apart in 15 years - leading to civil war and strife.

Dany herself explains this to Jon - We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.

Ned was the only person who showed kindness trying to save children - and look what happened to him. His own daughter ended up betraying him.

Yeah I really agree with this.I don't think there's really a way for Dany to win the war with good PR all the way.The world of the show is way too cruel for that.She's an exile with a horrible father everyone hates,she's bringing an army of people westeros is heavily prejudiced about,she has terrifying dragons at her command.And she has to conquer the seven kingdoms if she wants to be queen which means war.I don't see how she could have done that without showing her power and making some difficult choices that aren't all about kindness and mercy.I don't think speeches and kindness alone would have gotten her the throne.Not just her,anyone really.

Imo the time to change people's minds about her is after the war and when she's queen.When she doesn't have to worry about fighting a war and can focus on making changes she wants,breaking the wheel or whatever.It's not like it's even that difficult based on how little it took for the people of KL to cheer for Cersei even after everything she did and how as soon as Jon won the battle of the bastards all the northern lords that didn't want to support House Stark were suddenly making him KiTN.Basically the people of Westeros are fickle and love winners.

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Imo the time to change people's minds about her is after the war and when she's queen.When she doesn't have to worry about fighting a war and can focus on making changes she wants,breaking the wheel or whatever.

Agree. And if her dragons survive then she basically has nuclear deterrence to prevent any more wars and conflicts among the different kingdoms. That could allow for her to bring about 'breaking the wheel' though I am still not sure what this means on the show. It's not in the books so I don't know what exactly Dany/Tyrion want to do. Even Dany and Tyrion's conversation on this does not make it any clearer:

Quote

And right now she's thinking of how to set a trap.

Of course she is.

And she's wondering what trap you're laying for her.

Are we? Laying any traps?

If we want to create a new and better world, I'm not sure deceit and mass murder is the best way to start.

Which war was won without deceit and mass murder?

Yes, you'll need to be ruthless if you're going to win the throne. You need to inspire a degree of fear. But fear is all Cersei has. It's all my father had And Joffrey. It makes their power brittle. Because everyone beneath them longs to see them dead.

Aegon Targaryen got quite a long way on fear.

He did. But you once spoke to me of breaking the wheel. Aegon built the wheel. If that's the kind of queen you want to be, how are you different from all the other tyrants that came before you?

Tyrion does not want Dany to be Aegon the Conqueror either. So what then? How is she going to become queen of the 7K? Does he want her to be queen of the 7k? Or does he want her convince all the leaders to hold elections through long sieges?

Then they argue about Dany naming a heir. Again:

Quote

Because I believe in you and the world you want to build. But the world you want to build doesn't get built all at once. Probably not in a single lifetime. How do we ensure your vision endures? After you break the wheel, how do we make sure it stays broken?

Why is it important for her to have a heir if the Targaryens will not be rulers considering the wheel is broken?

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[tangerine95]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

Agree. And if her dragons survive then she basically has nuclear deterrence to prevent any more wars and conflicts among the different kingdoms. That could allow for her to bring about 'breaking the wheel' though I am still not sure what this means on the show. It's not in the books so I don't know what exactly Dany/Tyrion want to do. Even Dany and Tyrion's conversation on this does not make it any clearer:

Tyrion does not want Dany to be Aegon the Conqueror either. So what then? How is she going to become queen of the 7K? Does he want her to be queen of the 7k? Or does he want her convince all the leaders to hold elections through long sieges?

Then they argue about  Dany naming a heir. Again:

Why is it important for her to have a heir if the Targaryens will not be rulers considering the wheel is broken?

Yeah I'm not really sure what breaking the wheel means exactly.I don't think it means democracy because obviously she still intends to be queen and if she had an heir pretty sure she'd want her kid to inherit.The only thing that kinda makes sense to me is that she wants to stop the revolving houses on the throne and to establish a strong rule like her ancestors managed for 300 years.And that she'll do something to make sure the smallfolk doesn't suffer because of the nobles and their drama and just generally make their positions better.Also tbh it's possible that breaking the wheel is just something they consider a cool line and won't be explained in much detail.

[shireenbamfatheon]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Cersei blew up a Sept full of people, murdering hundreds and I did not see her doing any PR campaign about being benevolent and kind? She got the Tarlys to side with her based on greed - Jaime promising them Highgarden -  and xenophobia about the Dothraki savages. Just like Umber turned against the Starks/Jon because he brought the Wildlings across the wall. Cersei is not capitalizing on being nice. She is parading her prisoners in chains through the streets and slowly poisoning them to death in her dungeons. 

Does Tyrion think that a long seige of KL would give Dany good PR among the people of KL?

The Tarlys had already made up their mind. Randyll repeatedly insults Dany in front of everyone, refuses to bend the knee, is a traitor, refuses to go to the wall and ultimately left Dany with no choice.

Which lord is ruling with kindness here? Sansa wanted to throw children from their homes - even after they bend the knee and pledge allegiance to Jon! Jon himself only allows them to continue in their ancestral homes because they bend the knee. Or they would have been out with the Smallfolk, forced to survive like Arya. Olenna advises Dany to be a dragon. Ellaria poisoned Myrcella. The Greyjoys are pirates and raiders.

Ned was the only person who showed kindness trying to save children - and look what happened to him. His own daughter ended up betraying him.

 

2

Cersei doesn't need to because she can just point to the bigger monster in the eyes of the people. No one's going to look favorably upon the Mad King's daughter invading with an army of Dothraki and a kingslaying kinslayer as her Hand. Randyll was conflicted but in the end he chose the person he considered the lesser evil. It's actually perfect for Cersei because Dany's invasion is the only thing that has likely kept her in power. Cersei's PR is pointing at the person with the worse PR and turning everyone against them. And it's working because the people did cheer at the Dornish prisoners because she's made them hate someone else instead of her. Who's going to riot against Cersei when they're facing a Dothraki horde? And it's not like they don't have a reason to hate the Dothraki given the way they're written. But hey, Dany burns Dothraki alive? It's okay, they're evil. Westerosi hate Dothraki? Those xenophobic bastards!!!


 

Quote

 

Who has good PR about being this nice, kind, benevolent ruler in Westeros? GRRM himself has said that it is not enough to be a good ruler but that one has to have the power and strength to take the throne and hold it. That's how Aegon the conqueror did it. That's why Robert Baratheon's rule fell apart in 15 years - leading to civil war and strife.

Dany herself explains this to Jon - We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.

 

 

Who else in the series is a literal stranger with a horrifying legacy who's seeking to control the Seven Kingdoms under the pretense of wanting to break the wheel to save people from oppression? Dany kinda NEEDS to be accepted as a kind and benevolent ruler since those are values she wants to espouse. Freedom, justice, mercy, benevolence are all values essential to the cause that she's supposedly promoting so, of course, she needs to live up to them. Why tell the soldiers she's there to save them from a tyrant if she's going to act like one during her conquest? Dany put herself on a pedestal. 

And Jon, easily. Jon's reputation is the reason Tormund and Wun Wun managed to convince the wildlings to fight for him. And Ned, too, which is why literally everyone speaks so well of him seven seasons later and why the Northerners made Robb KitN. And a large part of Margaery's image played into her being a good, selfless and virtuous person who cared about the plight of the smallfolk. She had an entire season where she went around gaining the love of the smallfolk because she understood how important it was to have the support of the people. Don't you remember the former slaves turning against Dany in Meereen? Or the people of King's Landing during season two? PR is important. Strength alone is not enough to hold the throne. Joffrey was powerful at the time of his demise. Doran hadn't lost a single soldier when he died. Tywin suffered a humiliating death. Powerful people die all the time because they gain the hatred of their people.

Isn't this contradictory? Dany only wants power because she wants to help people, but it's okay for her to step on the very people she wants to help so she can gain power because she only wants it for their sake? How does that make sense lol? She had to be talked down from setting fire to KL twice within a few weeks' time. But it's okay because she's actually doing it for the sake of the people who don't even want her there? Do you believe she'd have left Westeros if Margaery and Tommen had been in power at the time of her invasion and ruled with justice with the support of the people because she just wants what's best for everyone? Why did it take her months to let Jon rule over the people who'd chosen him, and even then only because she'd fallen in love with him, if she's only conquering people for their sake?

Daenerys idolizes Aegon the Conqueror, but like Tyrion said, Aegon built the wheel that Dany claims to want to destroy. It's one thing to want to conquer a land because you want to or because you believe it's your right; it's another entirely to base that conquest on promises of freedom, justice and peace and then step on those very promises at every turn. 
Sansa didn't betray Ned in the show, no matter how much some people wish she had. Why am I not surprised she's brought up every time someone discusses Dany. 

I mean, you can disagree with it all you like, but Dany needing, and at times failing, to set herself apart from her father is precisely what they keep emphasizing in the show. If the Targaryens didn't have so many mad rulers, Daenerys wouldn't have to prove anything. 

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Seriously the North were completely ok supporting the Boltons, who assisted in the Red wedding and were terrorizing people by flaying them alive. . The umbers willingly gave over a Legimate Stark Heir to Ramsay Bolton just because they didn’t like Wildings...etc. But ooo Targaryens bad!

 

seriously the North in the show sucks.

 

 

The Smalljon wasn't exactly portrayed as being good in the show so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Umbers AND Targaryens can be bad. It's not mutually exclusive. But only one has a legacy of mad tyrants they need to work on. And the Northerners weren't okay with being ruled by the Boltons; they were weary of war, had lost most of their kin, their numbers were heavily depleted and the two biggest Houses in the North had joined the Boltons. They didn't want to fight what seemed to be another pointless war where they'd lose even more numbers for the sake of two Starks when they'd lost so much family because of a Stark. Robb's actions had negative consequences on the rest of his family. That's why it matters to have the support of the people. Now Jon's been gone for months and he's losing that support. Do I hate what they've done with the North? Absolutely. Is it really that unbelievable given how much they changed Robb's age and storyline? Not really. In the books, the Freys and Bolton men are being picked apart one by one because people hate tyrants and Robb was written so differently. They can't film that because television is another medium and they're streamlining the story. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by shireenbamfatheon

[anamika]

Interview with Bryan Cogman where he discusses stuff that relates to what we have have just been talking about. Including how Dany is perceived in Westeros as the Mad King's daughter and hence Tyrion not wanting her to use dragons. Cersei is apparently preying on the xenophobia of the Westorosi people.

When asked about Tyrion working against his family, Cogman said that he does not want to say too much because ' this would be explored a lot in future episodes'. They are still his family and he loves his brother and in spite of everything there is still a connection to his sister. Cogman admits that this is different to the books.

Possible then that Friki's leak of ' I never bet against my family' comes into play next season.

Cogman also points out how Tyrion has always served his family, was hand of the king to Joffrey etc. So there's real conflict there.

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Friki mentioned yesterday that Tyrion betrays Dany. I think it was in the comments of his freefolk post, but don’t hold me to it. In his thing last week he said the Starks (maybe on Twitter, although again don’t hold me to that).

From what I can see Friki has provided no information as to what this alleged betrayal entails, so I’m assuming his questionable source hasn’t told him the why, who or how.

Friki has said that he does not post leaks on social media. Only speculation. So yeah, I don't think there is any confirmed leak on Freefolk atleast that Tyrion betrays the Starks - unless it's buried in some comment on one of the threads.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

I say this as a Dany fan::

I really wish sometimes she would just embrace her role as conquerer and stop trying to soften her image with platitudes about “breaking the wheel”. Seriously . Girl, you had three dragons, Dothraki, and armies. Invade this shit, kill the fuck out of Cersei, hook up with that sexy Jon Snow , save the world from ice zombies and call it a day!!! ?

It infuriates me . This is medieval warfare, not a garden party. One thing I admire about Cersei even though I hate her guts is her ruthless, single minded determination to win and not let anything stop her. 

Dany DOES have good intentions and a good heart. That’s the major difference. She does have a desire to make the world better. But realistically she has to to WIN first before she can fix things and help people and if she has to  burn things down for the greater good then so be it. I know it’s an unpopular opinion.

[Colorful Mess]

Leaks are a way to cheat when audiences don't want to bother understanding themes or dilemmas that drive the characters. Since GRRM has emphasized literary themes over fantasy ones, I think it will come down to an internal war of good/evil within each person. Its about the choices people make when confronted with situations where there is no clear right/wrong. I think Jon's currently is "What drives Jon now that he's died and he's reluctant to live?" Sansa's currently is "What does Sansa want that does she not have?" Tyrion's is "is he more suited to defending the realm, or invading it?" Dany's remains the same since prior seasons, "Will Dany become like her father?" The reason it's hard to predict Bran and Arya is because we didn't have a dilemma for them presented in S7. I think both are fighting to retain their humanity while also possessing great power - a struggle they both have in common with Dany. But neither one of them want to install themselves on a throne, so there is still a contrast there.

[Colorful Mess]

I do agree about Dany embracing being a conqueror. It would be better if she listened to Daario when he said "You are a conqueror." A conqueror is not a queen or even a hero to everyone. We can't all be amazing at everything, just pick one thing you know you're good at, and stick with it. I still think Mirri was trying to tell her that her good intentions are laughable while she is conquering, because it IS contradictory. She either has to be out for blood as an invader to take what she thinks is hers, or she has to protect people from said invaders. She can't be the invader while trying to save people's lives. It just pisses people off even more.

[glowbug]

How does Friki saying Tyrion betrays the Starks disprove anything? I think he uses both Dany and the Starks because to betray one is to betray the other. The Starks and Dany are on the same team. Even if Tyrion betrayed Dany to put Jon on the Iron Throne that would still be a betrayal of Jon because he supports Dany. If Jon gains any interest in asserting his claim as Rhaegar's true heir I would be shocked if he didn't want to rule equally with Dany or if she didn't support him ruling with her as equals. If Tyrion betrays the Starks by trying to get Jon out of the way, either for personal gain or so he won't be a threat to Dany's claim, he would still be betraying Dany because she doesn't want Jon out of the way. If Tyrion is, as Friki has said, siding with his family at the expense of Dany, Jon, or anyone else on their team, he is betraying both Dany and the Starks. I simply cannot see a situation in which Tyrion could betray the Starks without also betraying Dany, or betray Dany without betraying the Starks, unless Dany turns on Jon, or Jon turns on Dany, which, IMO, is extremely unlikely to happen. 

[anamika]

Just checked comments in Friki's thread:

Quote

Q: Thank you for taking the time to explain this, Friki. Would you mind clarifying something for me as a non-Spanish speaker: Does Tyrion betray Daenerys, the Starks, or both? I thought that your first English video said that he betrays the Starks, but I've read a few comments on this sub that cited your Spanish videos as saying that he betrays Daenerys.

A: His treason is revealed in a scene shoot in studio with Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya and him. The info says “betrays the Starks”

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Just checked comments in Friki's thread:

I thought something was up when I checked in here before bed, everyone still up in arms on Friki.

Did he mention anything new?

[GrailKing]

So who figures out Tyrion's betrayal to the Starks ?

Varys from his birds? Sansa and Arya: one thanked LF for all his many lessons, which she used, and another is to be a damn good lie detector.

I think Jon and Bran will be busy, well I don't really want Bran to spill the beans, it be too easy. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by GrailKing

[MrsR]

Tyrion's betrayal of the Starks has to have something to do with Winterfell. He must direct the Golden Company to Winterfell and cause it to fall.  That's why the betrayal is so specific to the Starks. I suppose a Stark could die in the burning and defeat of Winterfell. He must redirect Dany and her dragons to some other battle site. Otherwise I don't think that if she was there that the GC could defeat them.

[OhOkayWhat]

9 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

If the betrayal is true, Tyrion is supposed to betray the Starks.

That makes even less sense.

But the thing I really have a hard time trying to understand is the phrase "they deserved it".

[Happy Harpy]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Can someone give me the link to this leak? Because looking at the big leak thread about Friki leaks on FF, this is what it says are Friki's leaks:

 

 

It's in the video in english, between 3.15 and 3.20: "Sansa will not betray the Starks, Tyrion will."

7 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Jorah, who'd been with her the longest, also expressed concern about her actions earlier on all the way back in seasons two and four. Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, Varys... That's a long list of people who're shown to be reasonable and observant who've expressed discomfort at her actions. Like Eyes High and Lady Chaos said, not only do Missandei and Grey Worm not know about her family history, they're also the ones who've benefited the most from Dany's actions.

Greyworm and Missandei didn't feel comfortable when she executed the slave who killed the master behind her back, they're able of critical thinking. They don't follow her blindly. Missandei said it, she's the queen they chose and they know they can leave anytime. Jorah's concerns were mostly tactical and back in S2, now in S8 he's still with her, loyal, and unconcerned about her genetics (and he knew the Mad King). Same for Barristan, until his death (imo, his role was to be a mental railing for her and undermine the preconceptions Viserys instilled).

Jon said it, imo, "when they know you for who you are". I do think that Dany's heritage as the Mad King's daughter is part of her story, but I think the story is about her not becoming like him because that's how her character arc has been progressing towards. People like Cersei used it already so if he betrays I can see Tyrion taking it as a pretext, too -although with the AOTD and Dany's dragons fighting to save people, it shouldn't find any echo- but I wouldn't hold my breath for mad queen Dany in S8.

11 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But the thing I really have a hard time trying to understand is the phrase "they deserved it".

Unless something triggers him when in KL, like people refusing to obey to him or to open the doors for him because they bought Cersei's propaganda and they still hate him in spite of him coming to save them again, I don't see.

It does sound like a madman's spite, so if all this is true, Mad Lannister seems more of an option...after all, Tywin's children aren't poster boys or girl for sanity or morals either.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[bubble sparkly]

I think D&D made a big mistake having Bran actually see the wall falling at the end of s7, because that means Team D/J should be made aware of this fact as soon as they arrive.  Also, the Starks sibs and the rest of the Northern Lords / Vale dudes should be up to speed too.  So any squabbling between any of the parties just seems petty, unnecessary and something they don't have time for.  Similarly Jon looks silly if he spends more than 1 second wallowing when the parentage bomb gets dropped.  There's no time for moping and loving family conversations when an army of the dead is literally coming right at you.  If Dany tells the North she will only help if Glover eats a dragon turd, he should dig in post haste without argument because an army of the dead is heading straight for them!

I think it would have been better to have the wall fall in the finale but not have Bran see it. Just have Ed or Tormund show up at the the end of 8x01 to drop the bomb after everyone has spent the episode having petty fights, loving reunions and staring at tombs of newly discovered mothers.

Also in regards to Dany, I don't think we really have enough information to know whether she will ask the Northerns to bend the knee to her.  She told Jon in 7x06 that she was willing to go North and fight the Night King with him (and did not stipulate any conditions), and he then bent the knee and said she would be a great queen.  Then in 7x07 when everyone was arguing as to how she should travel North, Dany chose Jon's suggestion of travelling together because she was coming to save the North not conquer it.

She might turn up and ask Glover and co to bend the knee, or she might not care because Jon has already done it.  The Northerners have been established as useless bitch babies so they are still likely to call her a foreign invading whore and whine about Jon bending the knee, even if Dany is happy to wait until after the war to discuss the finer points of Westerosi politics. And again, everyone will know the wall has fallen so there is no time for either Dany to argue with the Lords about bending the knee or for the Lords to try and overthrow Jon for a non-Stark who will tell Dany to bugger off.  They all need to be either hauling ass away from Winterfell or setting up / planning for the imminent fight with the NK and his army.

I think they've probably already telegraphed what will happen with Dany and the Westerosi people anyway.  In s7 Dany demanded Jon bend the knee and he refused, until she stopped asking him and did something heroic for him, then he happily called her his queen in an unprompted declaration and said everyone would come to see her for what she is.  Going by this I expect the North to hate Dany until Cersei attacks Winterfell in ep 3.  After Dany and her army join with the North to fight GC/Lannisters, they will probably think she is queen material.  Similarly, if Dany and Jon are instrumental in defending KL from the NK in ep 5/6, all those citizens will probably be happy to name them king and queen afterwards.

[nikma]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

  So any squabbling between any of the parties just seems petty, unnecessary and something they don't have time for. 

Well, that's the point.

[anamika]

18 hours ago, glowbug said:

 There was that leak I’ve feared is true that predicted Jaqen would be in King’s Landing and that Melissandre would be on horseback, which sounds terrible, but has yet to be majorly contradicted by what little filming spoilers we have.

lol, yeah. I don't think I have seen anything yet which debunks the leak which had pretty much placed all those characters/actors in KL. That leak did not have Tyrion betrayal. Jon dies, Dany rules, Boatbaby is prince that was promised, Sansa and Tyrion are leaders who rebuild westeros etc. That leak also actually gels very well with D&D's way of writing.

Thinking back to the wrap party, maybe we got the wolf-dragon sigil because on the show the Lannisters are wiped out and the Stark-Targ alliance win the game of thrones.

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

 Going by this I expect the North to hate Dany until Cersei attacks Winterfell in ep 3. 

Assuming episode one is all the reunions, arguments and planning and episode 3 is the WF battle directed by Sapochnik, I wonder what will be happening in episode two

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

That makes even less sense.

But the thing I really have a hard time trying to understand is the phrase "they deserved it".

I saw something yesterday , someone came up with a plausible ' They deserved it ' explanation; but for the life of me I can't remember where, Reddit or Youtube.

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

It's in the video in english, between 3.15 and 3.20: "Sansa will not betray the Starks, Tyrion will."

The way this is phrased matches up with double betrayal rumor or guess; except Sansa stringing Tyrion.

I can see her want his line extinct, even at the cost of her life.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

lol, yeah. I don't think I have seen anything yet which debunks the leak which had pretty much placed all those characters/actors in KL. That leak did not have Tyrion betrayal. Jon dies, Dany rules, Boatbaby is prince that was promised, Sansa and Tyrion are leaders who rebuild westeros etc. That leak also actually gels very well with D&D's way of writing.

Thinking back to the wrap party, maybe we got the wolf-dragon sigil because on the show the Lannisters are wiped out and the Stark-Targ alliance win the game of thrones.

Assuming episode one is all the reunions, arguments and planning and episode 3 is the WF battle directed by Sapochnik, I wonder what will be happening in episode two

 

I remember that old (fake?) leak had Robin being trampled to death by an elephant, which, let’s face it, is totally something D&D would do.

And as for what will be happening in Episode 2...? Drama, I’m guessing.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Interview with Bryan Cogman where he discusses stuff that relates to what we have have just been talking about. Including how Dany is perceived in Westeros as the Mad King's daughter and hence Tyrion not wanting her to use dragons. Cersei is apparently preying on the xenophobia of the Westorosi people.

When asked about Tyrion working against his family, Cogman said that he does not want to say too much because ' this would be explored a lot in future episodes'. They are still his family and he loves his brother and in spite of everything there is still a connection to his sister. Cogman admits that this is different to the books.

Possible then that Friki's leak of ' I never bet against my family' comes into play next season.

Cogman also points out how Tyrion has always served his family, was hand of the king to Joffrey etc. So there's real conflict there.

 

Thanks for posting the interview. I hadn't seen it before. You are right that Cogman does say that Tyrion has family conflict coming up. Umm. I wouldn't have expected this, after Tyrion he is only going to interacting with Jaime. It must be more than that.  Cogman also confirmed that D&D "mapped out the board strokes of a lot where we're would be going to the end game a few seasons ago." 

Edited September 17, 2018 by SimoneS

[YaddaYadda]

20 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I automatically discounted the NK, but maybe Tyrion secretly wants to be a White Walker? Ha. Now I am considering the Golden Company. Maybe Tyrion and Varys get scared of Dany and unable to convince Jon, they hire the Golden Company to fight Dany/Jon and Cersei? It is reach, but it could explain why members of the GC are at Tyrion's trial as Friki claims. An alternate idea that just occurred to me is that Tyrion hires the Faceless Men to assassinate Jon and/or Dany after the NK is defeated. It would explain what the Jaqen and Waif are doing at King's Landing.

I don't believe Tyrion's love for Jaime should be discounted. If anything, the one thing that connects Tyrion to Cersei is Jaime. And if Jaime is lost in the battle then I think there will be consequences for that. Jaime's death could easily become a catalyst for Tyrion to reassess his loyalties. 

I think it was the scene on the beach after they receive news of Highgarden and Casterly Rock being empty that Dany rips into Tyrion and tells him that perhaps he doesn't want his family dead. There's a huge leap between casting down his family and taking their power away and them being dead. 

It's the way he chooses to go about it that remains to be seen. But I think Jaime's death will ultimately be about Tyrion and what will send him down that road. 

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's the way he chooses to go about it that remains to be seen. But I think Jaime's death will ultimately be about Tyrion and what will send him down that road. 

Also, Jaime might be fighting on the side of the Starks/Targaryens, but he’s also under the impression that Cersei is still pregnant even though she has betrayed them all. So he’s fighting for the future of his child. So it’s not unbelievable to me that Tyrion might feel obligated, especially when Jaime dies, to do what he can to protect his unborn niece/nephew, regardless of how he feels about Cersei herself. He’s not gonna be down with executing his “pregnant “ sister, even if she is a hell bitch. So who knows what that might lead too?

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He’s not gonna be down with executing his “pregnant “ sister, even if she is a hell bitch. So who knows what that might lead too?

I very seriously doubt Jon or Dany would want to execute a pregnant woman. If they decide on her execution, then I would think they would want her to give birth first. 

If Cersei is marked for a miscarriage, then I wonder how that happens. I am very very unclear with the timeline, if all of this is happening over a period of time, like say a few months of war, in which case we will be seeing pillowed bellies. If anything, whenever they show us Cersei next season, she should be showing. 

[SimoneS]

I really hope this leak about Tyrion betraying Jon/Dany isn't true. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters and even though I ranted about his bad military advice to Dany last season, I never really believed that he wanted her to fail or would betray her. TV Tyrion has been through so much and is finally at the moment where he has respect and power, it would be heartbreaking to see him throw it all away for the remnants of the Lannisters and be executed.

Edited September 17, 2018 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

very seriously doubt Jon or Dany would want to execute a pregnant woman. If they decide on her execution, then I would think they would want her to give birth first. 

Oh I didn’t mean that!!! No chance on earth do I think Jon or Dany would kill Cersei If they knew she was pregnant. ? yeesh.  I just meant that I don’t think Tyrion would be ok with harm coming to her , which can happen if she’s overthrown . He might do something stupid in a misguided attempt to protect his family that ends up betraying Jon or Dany...do you see what I mean? Also I don’t think Cersei stays pregnant, i think she miscarriages, which adds irony to any betrayal Tyrion is involved  with if he does something shady for what amounts to nothing after all.

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I really hope this leak about Tyrion betraying Jon/Dany isn't true. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters and even though I ranted about his bad military advice to Dany last season, I never really believed that he wanted her to fail or would betray her. TV Tyrion has been through so much and is finally at the moment where he has respect and power, it would heartbreaking to see him throw it all away for the remnants of the Lannisters and be executed.

I agree. I would be devastated and angry to be honest.

Edited September 17, 2018 by GraceK

[LadyChaos]

35 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I very seriously doubt Jon or Dany would want to execute a pregnant woman. If they decide on her execution, then I would think they would want her to give birth first. 

If Cersei is marked for a miscarriage, then I wonder how that happens. I am very very unclear with the timeline, if all of this is happening over a period of time, like say a few months of war, in which case we will be seeing pillowed bellies. If anything, whenever they show us Cersei next season, she should be showing. 

For continuity sake they have to have Cersei miscarry, they had young Cersei visit the prophet in the TV series who told her that she would have 3 children and bury them all.  So all three of her children are dead, if she doesn't die pregnant or miscarry then they screwed up their own story line.

[glowbug]

Cersei was supposed to miscarry at the end of last season which makes me think her miscarriage will happen early in season 8, although part of me thinks they'll keep her pregnant as long as they can since motherhood is what D & D keep telling us is Cersei's redeeming quality. While she is a terrible mother, IMO, both the writers in interviews and characters in the show seem to justify a lot of her behavior because she's doing it out of the love for her children. I still think it's very much like D & D to have the Cersei miscarriage scene intercut with the scene of Dany finding out she's pregnant, which could happen early on in the season. Maybe part of the drama of episode two will be Dany finding out she's pregnant. I predict that Jon's parentage reveal will come at the end of episode one or early in episode two and there will be the fallout from that in the second episode. 

[LadyChaos]

52 minutes ago, glowbug said:

 I still think it's very much like D & D to have the Cersei miscarriage scene intercut with the scene of Dany finding out she's pregnant, which could happen early on in the season. Maybe part of the drama of episode two will be Dany finding out she's pregnant. I predict that Jon's parentage reveal will come at the end of episode one or early in episode two and there will be the fallout from that in the second episode. 

I think this is exactly what will happen.

[bubble sparkly]

I think they might also use Cersei’s miscarriage as the catalyst for her to lose her tenuous grip on reality and go full cray cray, ie deciding to send her army to WF to kill team D/J instead of hanging back in KL.

[nikma]

Cersei’s miscarriage may not be a public knowledge. It would be ironic if Tyrion and Jaime died to protect already dead baby.

[Wouter]

On 16-9-2018 at 1:26 PM, SimoneS said:

I have been thinking the photo that HBO leaked where Jon appears to be on his knees in front of Cersei at King's Landing. We speculated about the circumstances at the time, maybe it gives away more clues than we realize. Maybe Cersei captured him because he was betrayed?

 

That kneeling thing was likely orchestrated for the camera's of the paparazzi's, as they allowed easy access to it. Jon did meet Cersei, but whether there really is a kneeling scene remains in doubt.

This reminds me of the (WOTW, wasn't it?) spoiler that Cersei would not be in charge of KL anymore by E5.

The confusion about the other leaks (with BSB now admitting that her info doesn't line up with Friki's, though she seems to blame uncertainty in her own sources and/or Friki's source, now) means that HBO seems to have what they want: we are not certain about almost anything. A battle in Winterfell and a battle in KL, we don't know much more.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Wouter

[nikma]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Variety/status/1041811172712796160

 

Lol

[LadyChaos]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think they might also use Cersei’s miscarriage as the catalyst for her to lose her tenuous grip on reality and go full cray cray, ie deciding to send her army to WF to kill team D/J instead of hanging back in KL.

Maybe she sends her army north, and Jamie and Tyrion think she finally saw sense and work with the army.... only to find out that they are really there to destroy Dany and Jon.....and the Starks feel that Tyrion betrayed them and put him to trial.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Variety/status/1041811172712796160

 

Lol

I’m seriously biting my tongue so hard 

?????

Edited September 18, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m seriously biting my tongue so hard 

?????

It was recently announced AMC is planning 10 more years of The Walking Dead, which is already heading into its ninth season. I have no doubt GRRM would have been down with that for GOT.

From the article:

Quote

“David and Dan have been saying for like five seasons that seven seasons is all they would go,” the “Game of Thrones” author continued. “We got them to go to eight but not any more than that. There was a period like five years ago when they were saying seven seasons and I was saying 10 seasons and they won, they’re the ones actually working on it.”

GRRM almost makes it sound like he was pressuring them along with HBO to draw things out. Man, am I glad D&D stuck to their guns. I always worried that D&D would cave to HBO, and whatever my issues with their writing, I am very grateful that they didn't.

To be completely fair to GRRM,he acknowledged later in the same interview that you can't keep actors around indefinitely because they want to move on to new projects and don't want to be tethered to one role forever, so maybe hoping for 11, 12, or 13 seasons was just wishful thinking on his part.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

24 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To be completely fair to GRRM,he acknowledged later in the same interview that you can't keep actors around indefinitely because they want to move on to new projects and don't want to be tethered to one role forever, so maybe hoping for 11, 12, or 13 seasons was just wishful thinking on his part.

This. People commenting (in the twitter link) seems to think actors are ageless fictional beings too.

Edited September 18, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM almost makes it sound like he was pressuring them along with HBO to draw things out. Man, am I glad D&D stuck to their guns. I always worried that D&D would cave to HBO, and whatever my issues with their writing, I am very grateful that they didn't.

 

And besides even with 11-12 seasons, they still would not have any more books to adapt and would need to do their own writing to finish someone's story - and that's not easy to do considering GRRM himself has stopped writing the series. I think D&D knew when they talked to him that GRRM was not going to finish and decided on their story telling to finish the tale as soon as possible.

In other news, u/Claytoy seems to have mentioned something related to Friki's leaks a couple of days before Friki mentioned them. And his leaks seem to mention Gendry in the scene. So, as per Claytoy, there is a postwar scene in the dragonpit. Davos does the most talking. Arya is in there as is Gendry. Gendry has some dialogue which lines up with what Joe Dempsie said in his interview.  Some rumors put Sansa, Brienne, Tyrion etc. also in there, others don't. Unknown bearded guy is also there (Freefolk thinks he is representing Dorne). Claytoy also talks about an action scene with Sansa, Brienne, Tyrion and SweetRobin which coincides with BoatsexBaby's claims and she has always maintained that there were multiple scenes filmed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9d2a2s/updates/

Quote

Arya appears in a non war shot at dragonpit with several others where Ser Davos does most of the lip moving (no sound) followed by Gendry and others. No more details are available in the rumor because cast lists conflict in different versions of the rumor. The casts that fall common in all versions are Samwell Tarly, Bran, a bearded person that none recognizes, several highborn, soldiers and common folk and a woman in the shot seen from the back.

I don't want to speculate as the said scene had conflicting rumors. For example one version says Sansa, Tyrion and Brienne was in that scene while another rumor denies. But most accounts reported that this wasn't a night scene. The fight scene is a night one. Now I don't know how plausible are these rumors, because there were some other weird hilarious rumors that are not worth taking into account, such as NK reanimating dragonskulls of KL that bites off people like the skeletons that stabbed Jojen. So believe at your own risk. My pleasure :)

Another shot rumored is a war one. Everybody is retreating back to dragonpit or fleeing, probably looking up to the sky either watching a dance of dragon to be merged or a dragon to land to take them away. Arya is not in the scene, the star of the scene is Brienne, fighting awesome and escorting Sansa and Robin safe, lead by Tyrion and an unsullied (Grey worm?). No info if they could escape or a dragon landed there.

Those reanimating dragon skulls sounds like fun! D&D could very well be trying to pay tribute to Ray Harryhausen with some reanimated skeletons running around KL! If anyone here has seen Merlin, that also had Morgana rising some dead skeletons to do the fighting. People were talking about the dead rising from the crypt in WF to fight against the living. Maybe KL will get dead skeletal dragons!

Edit: Freefolk drama is sometimes more fun than GOT. Kaysen accuses Claytoy of leaking all this info to Friki ?

Edited September 18, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

I am always down for a Harryhausen tribute.  (We already got one in 4x10 in the Bran/Meera/wight fight scene, but the more the merrier.) The man was a legend.

[anamika]

[nikma]

This is very important statement from him.

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

I actually feel really great about the ending now. ? this actually made me feel so much better actually!!! I loved the ending to LOTR. And he actually references it big time here, in a way where he says to consider it as a comparison instead of a “subversion “.

Edited September 18, 2018 by GraceK

[glowbug]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I actually feel really great about the ending now. ? this actually made me feel so much better actually!!! I loved the ending to LOTR. And he actually references it big time here, in a way where he says to consider it as a comparison instead of a “subversion “.

GRRM confirmed that he considers Lord of the Rings bittersweet and likens the ending to it, which I agree is a positive sign since I also liked the ending of LotR, but more interesting to me is he said that most of the ending is the same ending he came up with 20 years ago. This means D&D are going to end the series (generally) the way GRRM plans on ending ASoIaF (which we know is never going to happen). I think we can put to rest the theories that the storylines are going to end up in vastly different places for the main characters. I'm not saying the early 1990s outline is going to be followed, but it sounds like whatever ending GRRM came up with when he added/change characters is going to be the ending we're getting, and it's the same ending he planned when he still thought there was going to be a time jump. That means us book readers will at least know what happens to the main characters even if we don't know what journey they'll take to get there in the books.

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, glowbug said:

GRRM confirmed that he considers Lord of the Rings bittersweet and likens the ending to it, which I agree is a positive sign since I also liked the ending of LotR, but more interesting to me is he said that most of the ending is the same ending he came up with 20 years ago. This means D&D are going to end the series (generally) the way GRRM plans on ending ASoIaF (which we know is never going to happen). I think we can put to rest the theories that the storylines are going to end up in vastly different places for the main characters. I'm not saying the early 1990s outline is going to be followed, but it sounds like whatever ending GRRM came up with when he added/change characters is going to be the ending we're getting, and it's the same ending he planned when he still thought there was going to be a time jump. That means us book readers will at least know what happens to the main characters even if we don't know what journey they'll take to get there in the books.

So does this mean that Jon has a chance of surviving, if he’s the Aragorn comparison? In your opinion?   Cause as much as people will hate it, I feel like Jon ending up as endgame King with Dany might actually be a possibility. Which I will love!! ( yes I’m biased)

Edited September 18, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

49 minutes ago, glowbug said:

but more interesting to me is he said that most of the ending is the same ending he came up with 20 years ago. This means D&D are going to end the series (generally) the way GRRM plans on ending ASoIaF (which we know is never going to happen). I think we can put to rest the theories that the storylines are going to end up in vastly different places for the main characters.

Well, he did say 'most of the ending' will be what he came up with 20 years ago and asked people to read his non-existent books to find out what these differences are. The story in the North may end up different considering how very different it is to that in the books. Jon, Dany and Tyrion are basically following their book trajectories. Sansa is not. Arya and Bran, I don't know.  Sophie Turner is the only actress who keeps crediting D&D with the ending and not GRRM, which makes sense since her story on the show is basically D&D just taking from other characters in the books.

Quote

Beloved shows have come and gone, and more often than not, there's at least a vocal minority of fans who are unhappy with the ending. Is there something freeing in knowing some people will be inevitably disappointed with how Game of Thrones ends, even if you find the ending satisfying?

Absolutely. It almost puts all of our minds to rest, just knowing the ending and being happy with that, no matter if anyone likes it or not. There have been so many theories and so many discussions with what people think is going to happen — where they would like things to go, and who they would like to see in power, and who they want to see die. Finally, just knowing. And for the people, when they watch it, I hope there's going to be some satisfaction in that it's come to an end and that's how it goes. There will be some people who are disappointed, I'm sure, because they will want certain people to end up in certain places. But at this point, I'm just happy with whatever David and Dan choose to do with the story. I've trusted them for the past nine or 10 years of my life with this. However they decide to end it is fine by me.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-sophie-turner-previews-final-season-1066499

Quote

It's possible that not even Game of Thrones author George RR Martin knows exactly how the HBO series will end, with Turner suggesting that – once the TV series overtook the source novels – Martin gave showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss "his blessing, and they continued [the show] in the vein that they thought it would go".

"From reading the books thus far, it was their interpretation of where they thought the show would go," she suggested. "They're still doing justice to the story, and serving the characters in the way they feel like they should be.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/news/a860935/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-sophie-turner-sansa/

It could be that they end up in the same place as her book ending next season. Or they do something different with her. On the show, Sansa is the important Stark. The story in the North revolves around her. In the books, that's Arya. I am not sure if this change will affect their character endings next season.

Edited September 18, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

Well, he did say 'most of the ending' will be what he came up with 20 years ago and asked people to read his non-existent books to find out what these differences are. The story in the North may end up different considering how very different it is to that in the books. Jon, Dany and Tyrion are basically following their book trajectories. Sansa is not. Arya and Bran, I don't know.  Sophie Turner is the only actress who keeps crediting D&D with the ending and not GRRM, which makes sense since her story on the show is basically D&D just taking from other characters in the books.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-sophie-turner-previews-final-season-1066499

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/news/a860935/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-sophie-turner-sansa/

It could be that they end up in the same place as her book ending next season. Or they do something different with her. On the show, Sansa is the important Stark. The story in the North revolves around her. In the books, that's Arya. I am not sure if this change will affect their character endings next season.

Daenerys isn't following her book trajectory exactly.

Remember that outline Daenerys wasn't meant to hook up with Jon Snow and it seems clear that GRRM was planning to continue the Stark line via Jon and Arya but now it seems like he could potentially continue the Targaryen line via Daenerys not the Stark line.

So if Outline Daenerys was supposed to be queen then who was she going to marry if not Jon? Or was she going to die? 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Daenerys isn't following her book trajectory exactly.

Remember that outline Daenerys wasn't meant to hook up with Jon Snow and it seems clear that GRRM was planning to continue the Stark line via Jon and Arya but now it seems like he could potentially continue the Targaryen line via Daenerys not the Stark line.

So if Outline Daenerys was supposed to be queen then who was she going to marry if not Jon? Or was she going to die? 

I am not talking about outline trajectories. I am talking about the current book trajectories. Tyrion is now in Essos and is most likely going to meet Dany soon. Dany is on track to invade Westeros. Meanwhile in the North, Stannis will most likely defeat the Boltons and die, the Northerners will take over, Jon will be revived, Davos will be back with Rickon who has Manderly's backing and one of Jon/Rickon become KITN/Lord of Winterfell.  Arya will most probably meet up with Jeyne Poole/Justin Massey in Braavos, hear about what happened to Jon at the wall and head back North. Bran becomes the 3ER and continues his exploration of the Others and the lands of always Winter with Summer.

It's clear Sansa is not going North anytime soon. I have long said that the North/Winterfell will fall and when the Northerners flee south, Sansa will help as Lady of the Vale unlike the previous Lady of the Vale. This will happen towards the end of the books. On the show, from filming spoilers it does look like WF falls and everyone goes south. Plus Royce is pro-Sansa. So we may yet get to the same place in the books for Sansa.

But the North itself is such a mess on the show. The Northern lords are whiny asshats with no loyalty. Rickon has been killed off. Show Arya has no complexity and no connection to the North's smallfolk, Northern politics, leadership etc. The same holds true for Bran. There's not a lot of effort put into writing for any Stark who is not Sansa.  Just look at Cogman's interview where he talks about writing a scene with Theon and Tyrion talking about Sansa - which was cut because it looked like a recap. But we had reunions between Gendry, the Hound, The Brotherhood and Jon - and not one mention of Arya? It's not like they were side characters in Arya's plot for two seasons or anything.  But hey, let's have more scenes of characters talking about Sansa.

So I don't know if we will get the same North that GRRM is heading towards in the books. Everything about the North is completely different on the show - characters are different, the story is different, setting is different. It's like whitewashed, nice Tyrion on the show. People find it hard to believe the leak because show Tyrion is totally different to book Tyrion.

As Benioff says:

Quote

To what degree do you feel it needs to be perfectly congruent with the vision of the endgame of the novels that Martin presented to you?

BENIOFF: It’s already too late for that. We’re already well past the point of it jibing 100 percent. We’ve passed George and that’s something that George always worried about — the show catching up and ultimately passing him — but the good thing about us diverging at this point is that George’s books will still be a surprise for readers who have seen the show. Certain things that we learned from George way back in that meeting in Santa Fe are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t.

I am sure we will know soon after the show airs from interviews given by David/Dan and GRRM about what is and is not different between both versions. David and Dan are not shy about discussing this, especially if a particularly story point is hugely unpopular - ex: Stannis.  If the Tyrion leak is true, I am very sure D&D will point their fingers at GRRM for that plot line. There is also the third holy shit moment and the reason for the Others - all of which will be from the books.

Edited September 18, 2018 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

But the North itself is such a mess on the show.

That scenario is one of many that makes sense after the war of the five kings.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Show Arya has no complexity

Disagree. She is very complex. That's the reason she is my favorite character.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

and not one mention of Arya?

Does it matter in the big narrative?. If "yes" they showed the conversation on screen. Brienne talking with Sandor about Arya was included. And both know Sansa too.

Edited September 18, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[SimoneS]

Good, Martin confirms yet again that D&D is the ending show as he planned for the characters 20 years ago. D&D has said that they have planned out the ending seasons ago so that the characters will be in place to have their book fates, at least the ones that Martin knew. I know a lot of the book readers won't be happy, but at least now they will know how the final book which may never be written ends. 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I am sure we will know soon after the show airs from interviews given by David/Dan and GRRM about what is and is not different between both versions. David and Dan are not shy about discussing this, especially if a particularly story point is hugely unpopular - ex: Stannis.  If the Tyrion leak is true, I am very sure D&D will point their fingers at GRRM for that plot line. There is also the third holy shit moment and the reason for the Others - all of which will be from the books.

 

If D&D knew about Tyrion's betrayal, they shouldn't have made his character so likable or nice. They could have at least dropped hints about the possible betrayal. Ugh, then again maybe that was what his conversation with Varys about Dany burning people was as was his look when he saw Jon go into Dany's room. My fingers are still crossed that the leak about Tyrion isn't true.

Edited September 18, 2018 by SimoneS

[Leila6]

I think breaking the wheel is just a fancy way of saying she’s going to stop its rotation—with Targaryens on top.