Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[nikma]

Friki's open latter was interesting, but the only thing that is sure is that he truly believes in his source.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

Friki and BoatsexBaby are directly contradicting each other. BoatsexBaby says that Joe Dempsie filmed in Seville as far as she knows. Friki says that Joe did not film a single frame. So one of them is wrong about what was filmed there.

Yes, but for /Frikidoctor to be right, and he is insistent that Joe filmed nothing, Joe would have had to do the following:

1. Lie when asked in an interview in late April/early May about when he was finishing with the show.

2. Lie when asked in an interview in late May about when he filmed his last scenes.

3. Cut his hair after arriving in Seville for no reason related to filming.

4. Hang out on set (which was located a fair distance from the city centre) with cast members for multiple days despite not having anything to film.

And here's the thing: Gendry's fake presence at the Dragonpit implies nothing about the scene. It wouldn't be less likely to be Tyrion's trial just because Gendry is supposedly involved.

Frikidoctor claims to have done his homework, but this is rookie stuff any fan familiar with Seville and fan interviews could have uncovered. His trust in his source is woefully misplaced.

I do believe there were decoys in Seville--Lena Headey, who showed up for the weekend but never filmed during the day, seems like a good example, along with NCW, who made a brief stopover on the way to Cannes and spent the day bumming around in Seville--but Joe Dempsie wasn't one of them.

Frikidoctor also claims that Gemma's presence in Seville was an elaborate ruse, except that she concealed her presence and was only accidentally outed because fans used her selfie to trace her location in Seville. Wouldn't it make more sense to parade her around Seville and send her to the soccer match if the whole point was to confuse and distract?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

I think he was tricked by HBO. He is known leaker, it's easy to use him to spread false information.

[anamika]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

And here's the thing: Gendry's fake presence at the Dragonpit implies nothing about the scene. It wouldn't be less likely to be Tyrion's trial just because Gendry is supposedly involved.

I do believe there were decoys in Seville--Lena Headey, who showed up for the weekend but never filmed during the day, seems like a good example--but Joe Dempsie wasn't one of them.

Yes, but apparently Friki has a source - who he seems to trust - who has told him that Joe has not shot a single frame. BoatsexBaby, like us, is possibly using the info that you just listed out about Joe to say that Joe filmed while in Seville. Kit also visited the set when he was in Seville but everyone seems to be sure that he did not film anything there.  

\_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said earlier, it's all about the source. Friki seems to genuinely think that his source is right and he seems to believe in the leak that Tyrion betrays someone for whatever reason, has a trial and is executed. From his open letter he also says that he does lots of research and gets lots of fake info - we don't know what he is picking and choosing and what he thinks is false info and how he is selecting what he thinks is right.

Friki's long held theory is that Dany rules as Queen with Tyrion as her hand and Jon dead. He's a Tyrion fan. This whole thing about Tyrion goes against everything Friki has been speculating and predicting for quite some time. It's only recently that he has latched onto this.

Anyways, people will believe what they want to believe till the show airs. Our individual biases and reading of the text and show decides what leaks we want to follow. There's a Jaime/Brienne forum that I occasionally visit, where folks think that Brienne is going to be endgame queen because she is in the Tyrion trial scene as mentioned by Friki. They also think that Jaime is a genuinely good guy and that Jaime/Brienne will be endgame King/Queen. So you know - anything is possible!

[nikma]

Bringing Kit's double to create confusion just doesn't make any sense to me. He is not known actor, no one cares about him, and if they want to trick us to think Jon Snow was there they already had Kit. Why waste time on ?

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, but apparently Friki has a source - who he seems to trust - who has told him that Joe has not shot a single frame.

And for that source to be truthful, Joe would have had to have lied multiple times when he had no reason to do so, stayed in Seville for the whole week when he had no reason to do so, and traveled to the set when he had no reason to do so, so tell me, which is more likely? That Joe Dempsie, who plays (let's be honest) a fairly minor character, did all that to fool people into believing he was part of a scene which according to Frikidoctor has no bearing on Gendry whatsoever when he wasn't, or that Friki's source is full of shit?

Other things that must have been elaborate deceptions according to Frikidoctor:

1. Vladimir's presence in Seville, since there were no stunts.

2. Gemma outing her presence in Seville and then immediatel deleting the Instagram post.

3. Faye braiding her hair as if she would be wearing her Waif wig.

4. Kit's body double's presence.

And so on.

Friki should just take the L on this and move on. He got greedy, and it backfired on him.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

Tyrion being a traitor, Tyrion turning on the people that gave him respect and cared about him is not all that far fetched in the books. It's the way D&D seem to be going about it that seems to be the problem. As a viewer, I'm not in the character's head to know WTF he's thinking. And if the actor has to come out and explain it, then the writers did not do a good job of fleshing it out. 

There's one reason I can see Tyrion turning on everyone and that's Jaime. Tyrion and Jaime's parting on the show was nowhere near as acrimonious as it was in the books. When Dany's forces are attacking during the loot train episode, he wants Jaime to flee. They didn't include the Tysha stuff for a reason.

If Jaime dies because of some strategic blunder from Dany, Jon or the Starks, that Tyrion may have been against, then I think it's something that might give him more reason to turn. 

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think he was tricked by HBO. He is known leaker, it's easy to use him to spread false information.

So HBO is giving Friki false information about Joe Dempsie not filming in Seville and then HBO takes Joe Dempsie to Seville to fool people into thinking that Joe Dempsie is filming in Seville? Or is the idea that HBO want to cover up that Joe filmed in Seville?

This is what Friki had to say when asked about Joe wrapping in Seville.

Quote

Q: Friki but the actor said he wrapped filming in Seville... it’s a weird thing to say in a random interview to decive everyone... Unleast he was talking about that documental stuff...

Is there any possibility that they have filmed any other scene in Italica apart from the trial?

A: No, I don’t think is possible. Joe Dempsey may have filmed interviews and takes for the series documentary, but he did not film in the Dragonpit

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

So HBO is giving Friki false information about Joe Dempsie not filming in Seville and then HBO takes Joe Dempsie to Seville to fool people into thinking that Joe Dempsie is filming in Seville? Or is the idea that HBO want to cover up that Joe filmed in Seville?

This is what Friki had to say when asked about Joe wrapping in Seville.

Sophie also said she filmed her last scenes in Seville. So Sophie's telling the truth because Friki says so but Joe is lying because he's part of an elaborate deception...?

Also, Liam, Gwen and Joe were snapped together near the set on Friday. So according to Friki, we should believe this:

Liam: Filmed 8x06 scene

Gwen: Filmed 8x06 scene

Joe: ELABORATE DECEPTION

I fail to see how Gendry's presence for the Dragonpit scene would lead people to believe that it was not Tyrion's trial. Or why Joe stuck around until the following week when the other decoys took off.

Friki is so full of it. His explanations for Bran's KO line never actually occurring in the show are also flimsy. He's only digging himself deeper at this point.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

So HBO is giving Friki false information about Joe Dempsie not filming in Seville and then HBO takes Joe Dempsie to Seville to fool people into thinking that Joe Dempsie is filming in Seville? Or is the idea that HBO want to cover up that Joe filmed in Seville?

 

The point is that Friki leaks have holes, and not from story perspective. Who gave him info I don't know.Hbo of someone else, and that's not even important.

 

But I lost unconditional trust I had in him. 

[SimoneS]

23 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Tyrion being a traitor, Tyrion turning on the people that gave him respect and cared about him is not all that far fetched in the books. It's the way D&D seem to be going about it that seems to be the problem. As a viewer, I'm not in the character's head to know WTF he's thinking. And if the actor has to come out and explain it, then the writers did not do a good job of fleshing it out. 

There's one reason I can see Tyrion turning on everyone and that's Jaime. Tyrion and Jaime's parting on the show was nowhere near as acrimonious as it was in the books. When Dany's forces are attacking during the loot train episode, he wants Jaime to flee. They didn't include the Tysha stuff for a reason.

If Jaime dies because of some strategic blunder from Dany, Jon or the Starks, that Tyrion may have been against, then I think it's something that might give him more reason to turn. 

But turn to who? I don't get why Tyrion would betray Jon/Dany to Cersei who would likely kill him. Who else could Tyrion betray them to? 

Edited September 16, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Frikidoctor also claims that Gemma's presence in Seville was an elaborate ruse, except that she concealed her presence and was only accidentally outed because fans used her selfie to trace her location in Seville. Wouldn't it make more sense to parade her around Seville and send her to the soccer match if the whole point was to confuse and distract?

Maybe she was just there on a HBO funded trip to Spain. Did she not have her baby with her when the fans located her? Lena and NCW seemed to be there for just a fun trip and apparently a documentary. Joe was there in Spain with his family before he went to Seville. Maisie was with her boyfriend for a few days before he left once the rest of the cast got there. I remember people getting excited that Maisie and Joe were the first actors spotted in Spain from their instagram.

And like I said, Kit went to Seville straight from filming in Belfast and went to the set and yet the common consensus is that he did not film anything while he was there. Then why visit when he was busy filming in Belfast?

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie also said she filmed her last scenes in Seville. So Sophie's telling the truth because Friki says so but Joe is lying because he's part of an elaborate deception...?

Sophie also send out a very sad tweet about Bittersweet endings, was apparently sad after filming, did not take any pictures with the fans unlike the rest of the cast and did not have dinner with the rest of the cast on their last day of filming. 

I agree that I don't see why Joe would lie about this considering Gendry is not that important of a character and HBO did not care about everyone seeing Joe in Seville with the other cast members. Maybe he was talking about wrapping the series in it's entirety including the documentary that Friki mentions he maybe doing.

This was BoatsexBaby's compilation of cast members and body doubles going for filming in Seville:

So how come BoatsexBaby's chronicle is missing Joe for all the cast visits to Italica?

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

Maybe she was just there on a HBO funded trip to Spain. Did she not have her baby with her when the fans located her? Lena and NCW seemed to be there for just a fun trip and apparently a documentary. Joe was there in Spain with his family before he went to Seville. Maisie was with her boyfriend for a few days before he left once the rest of the cast got there. I remember people getting excited that Maisie and Joe were the first actors spotted in Spain from their instagram.

So I guess Maisie didn't film either, then, if she was bumming around in Spain prior to filming. RIP Arya. #Gonetoosoon

Quote

And like I said, Kit went to Seville straight from filming in Belfast and went to the set and yet the common consensus is that he did not film anything while he was there. Then why visit when he was busy filming in Belfast?

/BoatsexBaby said he was rehearsing a stunt with Jacob (Grey Worm).

Quote

Sophie also send out a very sad tweet about Bittersweet endings, was apparently sad after filming, did not take any pictures with the fans unlike the rest of the cast and did not have dinner with the rest of the cast on their last day of filming. 

And Joe talked about filming his last scenes in Seville as well, so that really doesn't help your case. If Sophie's telling the truth, why isn't Joe? And ELABORATE DECEPTION isn't an answer.

Quote

I agree that I don't see why Joe would lie about this considering Gendry is not that important of a character and HBO did not care about everyone seeing Joe in Seville with the other cast members. Maybe he was talking about wrapping the series in it's entirety including the documentary that Friki mentions he maybe doing.

If you have to contort yourself into logical twists to justify Friki's spoilers as you are doing, that suggests they're much less likely to be true. Remember my list of everything Joe (and only Joe, apparently, since according to Friki no one else was lying about having filmed their last scenes in Seville) would have had to lie about to carry off a deception which really does nothing to fool fans as to the content of the scene one way or another. Occam's Razor, here. Either Joe (and only Joe) carried off a massive deception to fool fans into believing that he filmed his last scenes in Seville, or Friki's source is full of shit.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So I guess Maisie didn't film either, then, if she was bumming around in Spain prior to filming. RIP Arya. #Gonetoosoon

/BoatsexBaby said he was rehearsing a stunt with Jacob (Grey Worm).

And Joe talked about filming his last scenes in Seville as well, so that really doesn't help your case.

If you have to contort yourself into logical twists to justify Friki's spoilers as you are doing, that suggests they're much less likely to be true. Remember my list of everything Joe (and only Joe, apparently, since no one else was lying about having filmed in Seville) would have had to lie about to carry off a deception which really does nothing to fool fans as to the content of the scene one way or another. Occam's Razor, here. Either Joe (and only Joe) carried off a massive deception to fool fans into believing that he filmed his last scenes in Seville, or Friki's source is full of shit.

 

You said Joe Dempsie visited the set while he was in Seville. With which group of actors did he go and when was this since he seems to be missing in BoatsexBaby's list of actors going to Italica in her Seville Chronicles?

Edited September 16, 2018 by anamika

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Friki's open latter was interesting, but the only thing that is sure is that he truly believes in his source.

Friki does sound confident in his source. I don't blame him for being defensive. We'll just have to wait and see how this pans out. 

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

You said Joe Dempsie visited the set while he was in Seville. With which group of actors did he go and when was this since he seems to be missing in BoatsexBaby's list of actors going to Italica in her Seville Chronicles?

Joe was snapped near the set with Liam and Gwen--both of whom filmed according to Friki--the Friday they were in Seville. It was on Instagram. 

I don't expect /BoatsexBaby to have captured everything. The Seville fans went a little crazy in posting photos of the cast that week. 

Quote

I don't blame him for being defensive.

I do. He profits from subscribers to his Youtube channel promising spoilers, and he got greedy thinking he'd hit paydirt with this fake leaker. He deserves everything he gets. I don't know that the VFX folks were making fun of him with their Tyrion crack, but if they were, he deserved it 100%.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

But turn to who? I don't get why Tyrion would betray Jon/Dany to Cersei who would likely kill him. Who else could Tyrion betray them to? 

The NK? That's the only person or "person" left. I know exactly how it sounds.

[anamika]

42 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

He was snapped near the set with Liam and Gwen--both of whom filmed according to Friki--the Friday they were in Seville. It was on Instagram. 

I don't expect /BoatsexBaby to have captured everything. The Seville fans went a little crazy in posting photos of the cast that week. 

So your assertion that Joe visited the site for filming was just based on seeing him taking pictures with fans along with Gwen and Liam that one time?  I thought that entire area including the Italica ruins were closed to people and that's why we were only getting pictures of actors entering and leaving the hotel? Santiponce is a tourist city and we know Joe was there. Whether he went filming with the other actors? I am not so sure of that now.

Edited September 16, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

So your assertion that Joe visited the site for filming was just based on seeing him taking pictures with fans along with Gwen and Liam? In which case we should also include NCW, Lena and Conleth since they were also taking pictures with fans. Santiponce is a tourist city. Being seen there is not being next to the set. I doubt anyone is able to get next to the filming area. That's why we only got pictures of actors leaving and entering the hotel and not of actors leaving and entering the filming area. That entire place was shut down.

 

NCW, Lena and Conleth didn't go to Santiponce. They bummed around town and hung out by the pool.

So again, if there's a photo of Liam, Gwen, and Joe with fans at Santiponce, the following is what you're saying is the explanation:

Liam: Filmed Tyrion's trial in 8x06, was in Santiponce to film

Gwen: Filmed Tyrion's trial in 8x06, was in Santiponce

Joe: Went to Santiponce for shits and giggles only, hung out with Liam and Gwen to fool fans into thinking they weren't filming Tyrion's trial

Bearing in mind that Gendry is a minor character.

ETA: NCW did an interview with Esquire (posted in Spanish, so I’m translating roughly). When asked about the ending, he said there were things that he had foreseen but also big surprises. He told D&D that they couldn’t have done a better job.

Peter Dinklage did an NPR interview where he said that Tyrion has to face some things about himself “this past season” (I assume he means S8?) that he didn’t want to. He also said S8 was “beautiful.” He said his last filming day was in the middle of July.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

NCW, Lena and Conleth didn't go to Santiponce. They bummed around town and hung out by the pool.

So again, if there's a photo of Liam, Gwen, and Joe with fans at Santiponce, the following is what you're saying is the explanation:

Liam: Filmed Tyrion's trial in 8x06, was in Santiponce to film

Gwen: Filmed Tyrion's trial in 8x06, was in Santiponce

Joe: Went to Santiponce for shits and giggles only, hung out with Liam and Gwen to fool fans into thinking they weren't filming Tyrion's trial

Bearing in mind that Gendry is a minor character.

You do realize how strange that sounds? 

Not at all. Since apparently Joe's only sighting was that one time where he took pictures along with Gwen and Liam with some fans in the tourist town of Santiponce. Liam and Gwen were seen multiple times going to and from filming - there's no doubt they filmed. Gwen even has her body double hanging around. BoatsexBaby claims that Lino filmed because his stand in was present. But for Joe - here is an instagram picture of him with fans in Santiponce. I guess that will have to do.

And I don't think Joe was there to fool anyone. If he was not filming, he probably went like the other actors Lena, NCW, Conleth, Gemma and possibly Kit to just hang around with the cast and film the documentary which both BoatsexBaby and Friki thinks was filmed.

Or maybe he was filming. As per his texas con interview,

Quote

"I finished last week for good," Dempsie told INSIDER at Con of Thrones in Dallas, Texas. "It's a very strange feeling actually. There have been people who have been finished periodically over the past month or so, and even watching other people finish was quite emotional at times."

Dempsie said he was on set with other actors who were also filming their final scenes the same day.

"I thought I was all right, I thought I was going to be fine," Dempsie said. "And then I happened to be finishing on the same day as a few other actors as well. When they did my little bit I was fine, but it was when they got to the other people that I lost it a little bit. I'm fine until I see someone else trying not to cry, at which point I'm done."

He says that there were other actors who also wrapped on the same day he did.  We know Liam, Maisie, John, Isaac, Gwen, Kit and Peter all continued to film after Seville. So other than Sophie, who are these 'few other actors' he is talking about?

Peter Dinklage about his most challenging scene this season:

Quote

"The hardest....Probably saying goodbye to it was for me the hardest. But there's some moments that my character has this past season where he has to face some things about himself that he probably didn't want to and it was.... But yeah, it's a beautiful season"

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/16/648452143/a-peaceful-post-apocalyptic-story-in-i-think-we-re-alone-now

Reminds me of Friki talking about Peter having some Emmy winning scenes at his trial.

And no, it's not HBO planting Peter Dinklage interviews along with the Tyrion leak. Dinklage happens to be giving a lot of interviews because he is promoting his movie. Just like Emilia gave interviews about GOT when promoting Solo and Maisie talked GOT when promoting Early Man.  Peter was asked what Tyrion glaring at Jon/Dany means and hence his mention of all that love/jealousy stuff. HBO is not asking Dinklage to say these things to fool Frikidoctor.

Peter's last day of filming was mid July. Damn, that's a lot of filming. And considering he is a non-combatant who will most probably not have a lot of fight scenes unlike Kit and Maisie, that's a lot of filming. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by anamika

[LadyChaos]

IF Tyrion betrays Dany for his family.....I think it will because it is one thing to kill his father in passionate rage, but quite another to actively plan the deaths of your siblings over the course of years.  

 

How reliable is Friki?  I heard that when his stuff comes out right before an episode, it is generally spot on......but his accuracy this far out has been...less accurate.

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, anamika said:

Not at all. Since apparently Joe's only sighting was that one time where he took pictures along with Gwen and Liam with some fans in the tourist town of Santiponce. Liam and Gwen were seen multiple times going to and from filming - there's no doubt they filmed. Gwen even has her body double hanging around. BoatsexBaby claims that Lino filmed because his stand in was present. But for Joe - here is an instagram picture of him with fans in Santiponce. I guess that will have to do.

And I don't think Joe was there to fool anyone. If he was not filming, he probably went like the other actors Lena, NCW, Conleth, Gemma and possibly Kit to just hang around with the cast and film the documentary which both BoatsexBaby and Friki thinks was filmed.

Or maybe he was filming. As per his texas con interview,

He says that there were other actors who also wrapped on the same day he did.  We know Liam, Maisie, John, Isaac, Gwen, Kit and Peter all continued to film after Seville. So other than Sophie, who are these 'few other actors' he is talking about?

Peter Dinklage about Tyrion this season:

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/16/648452143/a-peaceful-post-apocalyptic-story-in-i-think-we-re-alone-now

And no, it's not HBO planting Peter Dinklage interviews along with the Tyrion leak. Dinklage happens to be giving a lot of interviews because he is promoting his movie. He was asked what Tyrion glaring at Jon/Dany means and hence his mention of all that love/jealousy stuff. HBO is not asking Dinklage to say these things to fool Frikidoctor.

Peter's last day of filming was mid July. Damn, that's a lot of filming. And considering he is a non-combatant who will most probably not have a lot of fight scenes unlike Kit and Maisie, that's a lot of filming. 

 

It is a lot of filming. Liam was also filming a lot towards the end. 

It's odd that there is this big, climactic something or other in the streets of KL that involves Davos, Arya, and Jon, along with Tyrion from the sound of things, that took close to three months to film (since all these actors were filming more or less continuously from late April on, with only a short break for Seville), that doesn't involve Sansa or Gendry at all (since both actors wrapped in Seville), and that doesn't involve Dany all that much (since Emilia took May and a good chunk of June off to do SOLO promotional work). Sansa could be hiding somewhere safe while shit hits the fan, being a noncombatant at all (not that Davos or Tyrion is much handier in a fight), but Gendry?

It's also odd that Davos, Arya, and I guess Tyrion are glued to Jon's hip for that three-month KL sequence, but that Jon is nowhere to be found in this 8x06 Seville scene, at least the one filmed during the day. 

Good question about the “few other actors.” There are a few actors who were said to have been spotted or who were snapped around or on the flight back from Seville, but we don’t know whether they filmed. Of course, some of these actors continued to film after Seville (by character):

Grey Worm, Jaqen, the Waif, Yara, Lord Royce, Jorah, Edmure

Could be any of these. Could also be Lino.

Joe made it sound as if he has a line or some sort of action in the scene, so presumably he’s not just standing around.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It is a lot of filming. Liam was also filming a lot towards the end. 

Good question about the “few other actors.” There are a few actors who were said to have been spotted or who were snapped around or on the flight back from Seville, but we don’t know whether they filmed. Of course, some of these actors continued to film after Seville (by character):

Grey Worm, Jaqen, the Waif, Yara, Lord Royce, Jorah, Edmure

Could be any of these. Could also be Lino.

Joe made it sound as if he has a line or some sort of action in the scene, so presumably he’s not just standing around.

 

I find it hard to imagine actors like Lino crying over it being their last scene considering how very little they have been on GOT.  Unless they filmed extensively for season 8. The actors for Jaqen, Waif, Edmure and Royce? Nah. Jacob maybe. But I think he was filming after that as well - if BoatsexBaby's claim of Jacob and Kit rehearsing fight scenes are right, then he would probably gone on to Belfast to film the fight.

I very much doubt Ian Glen was there. And I don't think Gemma filmed.

Edited September 16, 2018 by anamika

[glowbug]

I think there are arguments to be made for the validity of different leakers. There was that leak I’ve feared is true that predicted Jaqen would be in King’s Landing and that Melissandre would be on horseback, which sounds terrible, but has yet to be majorly contradicted by what little filming spoilers we have. Others except @anamika have completely dismissed this leak for reasons I still don’t understand. I would love for that leak to be wrong but the only major contradictions have been from other leakers. 

BoatSexBaby hasn’t been majorly contradicted either except by other leakers. Her leaks seem legit but her attitude gives me pause and there’s no definitive proof that she knows anything or much. True leakers don’t usually seem to get so much pleasure from teasing the audience. Lads just laid it out there. WotW flat out called fake leaks fake when they were. It’s one of the reasons we knew Lads was legit. WotW didn’t deny them and they had real info. 

Friki has had legit information in the past and I do believe he sincerely believes his source. Whether his source is correct remains to be seen. His leak seems to be contradicted by Joe Dempsy, and his info doesn’t seem to make much narrative sense. It also differs from his other leaks in its timing.

None of us knows who is right or if any of the leaks are real. No one is “pathetic” or stupid or whatever for believing one source or another. There are arguments to be made for all of them. And there is no one ending that is obviously true either. Jon and/or Dany are not obviously going to die or obviously going to live. Sansa is not obviously going to end up with Tyrion/Sandor/Robin or obviously not going to end up with any of them. Sansa is not obviously going to live or obviously going to die. Unless some very credible information is leaked before now and the end of season 8, the ending will not be obvious until it happens. 

[nikma]

26 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Others except @anamika have completely dismissed this leak for reasons I still don’t understand.

I'm not completely dismissing Friki. I just don't trust him unconditionally like I did, but I 100% trust that he is honest and that he is not troll. 

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The NK? That's the only person or "person" left. I know exactly how it sounds.

I automatically discounted the NK, but maybe Tyrion secretly wants to be a White Walker? Ha. Now I am considering the Golden Company. Maybe Tyrion and Varys get scared of Dany and unable to convince Jon, they hire the Golden Company to fight Dany/Jon and Cersei? It is reach, but it could explain why members of the GC are at Tyrion's trial as Friki claims. An alternate idea that just occurred to me is that Tyrion hires the Faceless Men to assassinate Jon and/or Dany after the NK is defeated. It would explain what the Jaqen and Waif are doing at King's Landing.

Edited September 16, 2018 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

Imagine someone just returning to the fandom after taking a month off:

Hey guys, what is going....Tyrion what?!! Why did he..? What??? ...Who did..? Friki? Oh Friki! But Joe what? Who is Jo..? Gendry? Seville??.... DAVOS will be the new KING??? DAVOS???!!!

WHAT IS GOING ON???!!!

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, glowbug said:

None of us knows who is right or if any of the leaks are real. No one is “pathetic” or stupid or whatever for believing one source or another. There are arguments to be made for all of them. And there is no one ending that is obviously true either. Jon and/or Dany are not obviously going to die or obviously going to live. Sansa is not obviously going to end up with Tyrion/Sandor/Robin or obviously not going to end up with any of them. Sansa is not obviously going to live or obviously going to die. Unless some very credible information is leaked before now and the end of season 8, the ending will not be obvious until it happens. 

Agree!

Edited September 16, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[LadyChaos]

Oh god..... I think I made a mistake delving back in the fandom.  The past 30 or so pages of this thread are giving me a migraine.  

 

At this point it is clear that we're at a bit of an impasse.  It is impossible to know for sure if Friki's source is legit or not.  Unless someone that matters, as far as leaks go, comes out and says 'No, this is false.'  The only way we will know if it is true or not, is when the eps air, which won't be for a few months.  So maybe we can stop with the arguments over Friki's legitimacy and focus on what we do know.  Or, do we not know of any other spoilers for s8? If we exclude Friki's leak, is Tyrion's (MOVIE TYRION, NOT BOOK TYRION so lets leave the book out of this since we know they are planning on deviating from the book) betrayal sound plausible?  If so, why?

[OhOkayWhat]

27 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

betrayal sound plausible?  If so, why?

In my opinion, only if he is trying to stop Dany going all "mad queen" and all goes terribly wrong for everyone.

Edited September 16, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[cambridgeguy]

28 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

If we exclude Friki's leak, is Tyrion's (MOVIE TYRION, NOT BOOK TYRION so lets leave the book out of this since we know they are planning on deviating from the book) betrayal sound plausible?  If so, why?

In my opinion the following reasons are plausible:

1. He's trying to save Jaime's life.  This is arguably the most sympathetic reason, even if it goes horribly wrong. We've seen characters to stupid things before in an attempt to save their loved ones (remember Cat freeing Jaime and totally undermining Robb in the process?)

2. Dany emulates her dad and starts resorting to extreme punishments and tactics.  I find this unlikely - Dany tends to think about dragonfire whenever things don't go her way but if she goes off the deep end there's no way Jon will go along with it.  Dany is also a hero, and heroes fall in this show due to oblivious stupidity, not a descent into villainy.

3. Tyrion is so in love with Dany he flies into a jealous rage when Jon effectively replaces him as her chief confidant and conspires to have him killed.  This turns Tyrion, a fan favorite, into a pathetic lovesick asshole.

[OhOkayWhat]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

In my opinion the following reasons are plausible:

1. He's trying to save Jaime's life.  This is arguably the most sympathetic reason, even if it goes horribly wrong. We've seen characters to stupid things before in an attempt to save their loved ones (remember Cat freeing Jaime and totally undermining Robb in the process?)

2. Dany emulates her dad and starts resorting to extreme punishments and tactics.  I find this unlikely - Dany tends to think about dragonfire whenever things don't go her way but if she goes off the deep end there's no way Jon will go along with it.  Dany is also a hero, and heroes fall in this show due to oblivious stupidity, not a descent into villainy.

3. Tyrion is so in love with Dany he flies into a jealous rage when Jon effectively replaces him as her chief confidant and conspires to have him killed.  This turns Tyrion, a fan favorite, into a pathetic lovesick asshole.

-My problem with 1 is that Jaime is going North to help. Many things must happen to end in a betrayal.

-With 2 maybe Jon is not near when it happens.

-3 is very hard to believe.

[tangerine95]

To me for show Tyrion to betray Dany/the Starks the more plausible explanation would be he wants to save Cersei's baby.Maybe even wants some kind of pardon for Cersei herself so she doesn't get killed or exiled if Dany wins.So he makes some deal that he doesn't tell anyone about,Cersei uses that because she's not giving up power ever and it leads to some bad consequences Tyrion didn't intend for.

If they go with the jealousy angle I could also see him not being happy about Jon and Dany for personal reasons as well as believing Jon's influence on Dany is bad and making Tyrion himself less important to her so he does something to get rid of Jon.

[LadyChaos]

I could see Tyrion betray them if he was given to believe that Dany would by like her father.  I'm also inclined to think that Tyrion MIGHT betray them if, when, Jon's parentage is released and Tyrion believes that with Dany and Jon together, the incest and the mental instability that comes with it would mean more of the same for the future of Westros so decides that neither Cersei or Dany would be fit rulers and schemes to put someone else on the throne.  The problem with both of these is that we only have 6 episodes and that is alot to set up while also dealing with the NK, and other such SL's that need to be resolved in only a handful of episodes.

 

Any word if 801 and 06 will be extended episodes or not?

[Leila6]

There was a very good fanfic I used to read (which unfortunately seems to be on permanent hiatus) in which Tyrion betrays J&D for two reasons: (1) to save Cersei’s child and (2) because Jaime sacrificed himself to set off a wildfire bomb at Winterfell against the AOTD, and Tyrion never forgave J&D for orchestrating the mission and letting Jamie go. I think something like this is plausible, but definitely not betraying them for Cersei’s sake.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

In my opinion, only if he is trying to stop Dany going all "mad queen" and all goes terribly wrong for everyone.

 

If the betrayal is true, Tyrion is supposed to betray the Starks. Verbatim. The Starks, not Dany. She might be included in "The Starks" because she and Jon are a unit now, but she isn't singled out.

That's why I don't see how Dany as a "Mad Queen" could be a direct cause; because if he tried to stop her, it would be her he'd betray. Not the Starks. On the contrary, he would try to rally them against her (Sansa, at the very least, and the Northern Lords with her). I do think that the subject will be touched because of the Tarlys. I dare hope it won't spur a betrayal from Sam.

I find it interesting, by the way, how people who've been with Dany the longest, and have witnessed her sack Astapor or cruficy the masters, don't worry for a single second about her sanity. Missandei and Greyworm are loyal, but they aren't stupid; they're able to object when they disagree with a policy. Davos, the usual voice of reason, expressed no reservation towards her. The Mad Queen narrative/fear comes from people who don't know her, or from Westerosi-born, KL politicians Varys and Tyrion.

I agree that whatever Tyrion does should go terribly wrong for everyone, because it would have to for him to be executed. I could see him play the arsonist fireman to supplant Jon and prove to Dany that she needs him, and provoke a disaster that would cost the Starks. He already committed a crime of passion, killed the woman he loved for a narcissistic wound so letting his jealousy and desperation overwhelm him wouldn't come out of left field.

What I still and will always have a hard time to reconcile with is how he could betray anyone in the Stargaryen alliance with the ongoing AOTD invasion because this would be plain, and criminally stupid. Tyrion is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Any word if 801 and 06 will be extended episodes or not?

Only conflicting reports. Welcome to this off-season...

Edited September 17, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

If the betrayal is true, Tyrion is supposed to betray the Starks. Verbatim. The Starks, not Dany. She might be included in "The Starks" because she and Jon are a unit now, but she isn't singled out.

 

Is this a confirmed leak from Friki or just speculation on his behalf? As far as I know, Friki does not know the details of the betrayal and who, why, how Tyrion betrays. Only that he does, has a trial and is executed.

I do think that Dany will execute him by dragonfire. Friki keeps insisting that Tyrion's execution was shot somewhere else and not in Seville. Emilia's comments about Dany's actions towards the very end - that is someone bracing for killing off one of the most popular characters on Television. Tyrion is universally loved - even by the other actors on the show. He's been portrayed as a lovable, kind and wise man on the show. As Kit Harington explains for who should end up on the Iron Throne:

Quote

Tyrion. Personally, I don't really tell people my theories about things, but I think it could be -- it's not exactly going to be Tyrion, but I think it could be Tyrion. I think he's, it almost all started with Tyrion like he's not the obvious choice. The obvious choice is Daenerys, possibly Jon Snow. But Tyrion has always been, I almost view the world through Tyrion. Like he seems to be separate from it like he sees it for the way it is. He seems almost to see that it is a fantasy, he's the person who seems most grounded, most real. He's also got the nous for it. I just like him, I've always liked him as a character, and the way Peter [Dinklage] portrays him so beautifully.

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree that whatever Tyrion does should go terribly wrong for everyone, because it would have to for him to be executed. I could see him play the arsonist fireman to supplant Jon and prove to Dany that she needs him, and provoke a disaster that would cost the Starks. He already committed a crime of passion, killed the woman he loved for a narcissistic wound so letting his jealousy and desperation overwhelm him wouldn't come out of left field.

 

It could be a betrayal of both Dany and the Starks if Tyrion's betrayal leads to Jon's death. Then, I can see both Dany and Arya gunning for him.

As for a reason, Dinklage talks about Tyrion facing some things about himself that he did not want to. We will have to wait till next year to see what that is. I know Peter Dinklage will give it his all and we will get some amazing scenes from him.  Tyrion has not had a proper arc that's about him for two seasons now - with all the filming he's done for the last season, I think it's a big one for him. I am only worried about D&D's writing. Hopefully they put in more effort than the WF plot and wight hunt.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I find it interesting, by the way, how people who've been with Dany the longest, and have witnessed her sack Astapor or cruficy the masters, don't worry for a single second about her sanity. Missandei and Greyworm are loyal, but they aren't stupid; they're able to object when they disagree with a policy. Davos, the usual voice of reason, expressed no reservation towards her. The Mad Queen narrative/fear comes from people who don't know her, or from Westerosi-born, KL politicians Varys and Tyrion.

 

Yeah, people who don’t know her, but who know all too well her family’s tendency towards madness and remember all too well her sadistic tyrant of a father with a known penchant for burning people alive, which, to be fair, given Dany’s stated ambition and track record, is highly relevant precedent. Missandei and Grey Worm are ignorant of the Targs and the Mad King as far as we know (beyond Tyrion needling Dany about her father, I guess) and at any rate have no Targ-related baggage as Varys, apparently still traumatized by seeing Aerys burn people alive, and the Starks, who lost their grandfather, uncle and aunt to Targ bullshit, do. Would they still be as unconcerned about Dany’s behaviour if they were in possession of all the facts, had lost multiple family members to the Targs, or had previous experience personally dealing with a mad Targ? I doubt it.

Davos faithfully and enthusiastically served a king who burned people as a matter of course, so I doubt Dany’s behaviour would move the needle much for him one way or another.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Eyes High

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah, people who don’t know her, but who know all too well her family’s tendency towards madness and remember all too well her sadistic tyrant of a father with a known penchant for burning people alive. Missandei and Grey Worm are ignorant of the Targs and the Mad King and at any rate have no Targ-related baggage as Varys, apparently still traumatized by seeing Aerys burn people alive, does. Would they still be as unconcerned about Dany’s behaviour if they were in possession of all the facts or had previous experience dealing with a mad Targ?

Davos faithfully and enthusiastically served a king who burned people as a matter of course, so I doubt Dany’s behaviour would move the needle much for him one way or another.

Alos, add to it that Grey Worm and Missandei benefited from what she has so far done.  They revere her, she is the breaker of chains, the freerer of slaves.  Because of her, they are free and they willingly follow her because of it.  So one could say they are also blinded by their loyalty to woman that freed them from slavery.

Edited September 17, 2018 by LadyChaos

[anamika]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Davos faithfully and enthusiastically served a king who burned people as a matter of course, so I doubt Dany’s behaviour would move the needle much for him one way or another.

See, the thing is, it should not move the needle much for Tyrion either - the guy who killed Davos' son with wildfire as Davos reminded him of last season. In the season 6 finale, Dany burns several ships with soldiers on them in Meereen and Tyrion uses that as a warning to the slave masters - better be on your best behavior or she's going to come back with her dragons!

Which is pretty much what Dany did on the field of fire 2.0 - a show of power. Bend the knee or else. But suddenly Tyrion has objections when it's the folks of Westeros getting hit with dragons? Why compare her to Aerys and not Aegon the Conqueror - is that not who GRRM compares Dany to?

Tyrion's entire logic for following the Mother of Dragons is confusing if he does not want her to use her dragons or the Dothraki for battle but instead go for long sieges. Especially against someone like Cersei. He was just handing away easy wins to Jaime until Dany took matters into her own hands. In this case, Olenna's advice to her made more sense - You are a dragon. Be a dragon.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

Is this a confirmed leak from Friki or just speculation on his behalf?

(...)

As for a reason, Dinklage talks about Tyrion facing some things about himself that he did not want to.

Friki was very clear that Tyrion supposedly betrays the Starks. Yet another reason his leaks are bullshit, but I digress.

For all we know, the thing that Tyrion doesn’t want to face is that he’s a Targ after all. TWIST. 

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

See, the thing is, it should not move the needle much for Tyrion either - the guy who killed Davos' son with wildfire as Davos reminded him of last season. In the season 6 finale, Dany burns several ships with soldiers on them in Meereen and Tyrion uses that as a warning to the slave masters - better be on your best behavior or she's going to come back with her dragons!

Which is pretty much what Dany did on the field of fire 2.0 - a show of power. Bend the knee or else. But suddenly Tyrion has objections when it's the folks of Westeros getting hit with dragons? Why compare her to Aerys and not Aegon the Conqueror - is that not who GRRM compares Dany to?

There are obvious distinctions between what Dany did to the Tarlys and Tyrion’s use of wildfire at Blackwater, but that’s getting off topic. I am reminded of Varys and Tyrion’s exchange in 7x05, where Tyrion rhetorically asks what Dany was supposed to have done, and Varys pretty much answered “Literally anything but that?”

Long story short, pretending that mad queen fears among Varys, Tyrion and others are just silly paranoia, or that Missandei and Grey Worm’s lack of concern somehow carries more weight than those in the know despite their obvious ignorance as Essosi of the excesses of the Mad King and the poisonous Targ legacy, makes no sense. 

[shireenbamfatheon]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I find it interesting, by the way, how people who've been with Dany the longest, and have witnessed her sack Astapor or cruficy the masters, don't worry for a single second about her sanity. Missandei and Greyworm are loyal, but they aren't stupid; they're able to object when they disagree with a policy. Davos, the usual voice of reason, expressed no reservation towards her. The Mad Queen narrative/fear comes from people who don't know her, or from Westerosi-born, KL politicians Varys and Tyrion.

 

1

Jorah, who'd been with her the longest, also expressed concern about her actions earlier on all the way back in seasons two and four. Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, Varys... That's a long list of people who're shown to be reasonable and observant who've expressed discomfort at her actions. Like Eyes High and Lady Chaos said, not only do Missandei and Grey Worm not know about her family history, they're also the ones who've benefited the most from Dany's actions. That and they're from one of the most heinous cultures in the series and have a completely different understanding of punishment and loyalty. Neither character has been shown to be questioning of their leader, which makes sense given their background. Missandei straight up bragged about Dany being unique because they chose to follow her, when Dany only summoned Jon to Dragonstone to bend the knee because she wanted to deny the Northerners the right to choose their leader, and confined him to the island when he refused. 

 

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

See, the thing is, it should not move the needle much for Tyrion either - the guy who killed Davos' son with wildfire as Davos reminded him of last season. In the season 6 finale, Dany burns several ships with soldiers on them in Meereen and Tyrion uses that as a warning to the slave masters - better be on your best behavior or she's going to come back with her dragons!

Which is pretty much what Dany did on the field of fire 2.0 - a show of power. Bend the knee or else. But suddenly Tyrion has objections when it's the folks of Westeros getting hit with dragons? Why compare her to Aerys and not Aegon the Conqueror - is that not who GRRM compares Dany to?

 

Tyrion had objections to the slave masters being burned too. He talked her down from burning people alive en masse twice in Meereen. He only went along with it in season six because he'd talked her down from burning everyone alive and accepted it as a necessary evil. His discomfort with her burning the Tarlys wasn't out of character and stemmed from his conviction that there were other alternatives. Good PR is vital to Dany's success given the rumors and legacy that surrounds her; they're exactly what Cersei has capitalized on to turn people against her. Dany risks going the way of Joffrey or Aerys by having someone stab her in the back if she only inspires fear in people and not loyalty or respect. 

When people like Michelle Clapton, the costume designer, says stuff like this about season eight: 
 

Quote

But, Clapton teases fans: “When we see her now, she’s starting to wear the colors of her brother” Viserys, (Harry Lloyd) who perished when he got too cocky. “What does that say about her?” she leads us to wonder.

It's not just haters inventing things to hate about her, it's the show creators being very deliberate in writing her as a grey and polarizing character to whom multiple interpretations can apply. 

[anamika]

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Friki was very clear that Tyrion supposedly betrays the Starks.

Can someone give me the link to this leak? Because looking at the big leak thread about Friki leaks on FF, this is what it says are Friki's leaks:

Quote

The reveal of his treason will be a long scene with 5 characters: Jon, Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Tyrion

His trial will be held at the Dragonpit

Tyrion will be executed for treason, in which way is still unknown

Kit Harington did not film in Sevilla at all

Emilia Clarke was never in Sevilla at all

I could not find this 'Tyrion betrays the Starks' in any of the many translations...Maybe it is in the comments?

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There are obvious distinctions between what Dany did to the Tarlys and Tyrion’s use of wildfire at Blackwater, but that’s getting off topic. I am reminded of Varys and Tyrion’s exchange in 7x05, where Tyrion rhetorically asks what Dany was supposed to have done, and Varys pretty much answered “Literally anything but that?”

But Tyrion did not want Dany to use her dragons at all in Westeros! He was all sad as he saw the Lannister men getting burned to death. He did not give a damn about people being burned to death in war when he used Wildfire or when Dany used it in Meereen. But he did not want Dany using it against the Lannisters. It was not just the Tarlys - who Dany executed as traitors despite giving them several chances to live.

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Long story short, pretending that mad queen fears among Varys, Tyrion and others are just silly paranoia, or that Missandei and Grey Worm’s lack of concern somehow carries more weight than those in the know despite their obvious ignorance as Essosi of the excesses of the Mad King and the poisonous Targ legacy, makes no sense. 

Tyrion is basically judging Dany like he himself gets judged for being an imp and Jon getting judged for being a bastard. As pointed out earlier, people like Grey Worm and Missandei judge Dany on her actions. But in Westeros, people get labels based on their birth and who their parents are.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

At this point I just want to be satisfied. I just don’t want to feel like I was taken for a fool .  Tyrion could betray the Starks by turning out he was really Cersei’s undercover faceless man assassin who stabs Sansa while simultaneously sacrificing Bran to the NK while burning down Winterfell and I’ll be ok with it if they manage to sell it in way that makes sense ???

Edited September 17, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

29 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Tyrion had objections to the slave masters being burned too. He talked her down from burning people alive en masse twice in Meereen. He only went along with it in season six because he'd talked her down from burning everyone alive and accepted it as a necessary evil. His discomfort with her burning the Tarlys wasn't out of character and stemmed from his conviction that there were other alternatives. Good PR is vital to Dany's success given the rumors and legacy that surrounds her; they're exactly what Cersei has capitalized on to turn people against her. Dany risks going the way of Joffrey or Aerys by having someone stab her in the back if she only inspires fear in people and not loyalty or respect.

Cersei blew up a Sept full of people, murdering hundreds and I did not see her doing any PR campaign about being benevolent and kind? She got the Tarlys to side with her based on greed - Jaime promising them Highgarden -  and xenophobia about the Dothraki savages. Just like Umber turned against the Starks/Jon because he brought the Wildlings across the wall. Cersei is not capitalizing on being nice. She is parading her prisoners in chains through the streets and slowly poisoning them to death in her dungeons. 

Does Tyrion think that a long seige of KL would give Dany good PR among the people of KL?

The Tarlys had already made up their mind. Randyll repeatedly insults Dany in front of everyone, refuses to bend the knee, is a traitor, refuses to go to the wall and ultimately left Dany with no choice.

Which lord is ruling with kindness here? Sansa wanted to throw children from their homes - even after they bend the knee and pledge allegiance to Jon! Jon himself only allows them to continue in their ancestral homes because they bend the knee. Or they would have been out with the Smallfolk, forced to survive like Arya. Olenna advises Dany to be a dragon. Ellaria poisoned Myrcella. The Greyjoys are pirates and raiders.

Who has good PR about being this nice, kind, benevolent ruler in Westeros? GRRM himself has said that it is not enough to be a good ruler but that one has to have the power and strength to take the throne and hold it. That's how Aegon the conqueror did it. That's why Robert Baratheon's rule fell apart in 15 years - leading to civil war and strife.

Dany herself explains this to Jon - We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.

Ned was the only person who showed kindness trying to save children - and look what happened to him. His own daughter ended up betraying him.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

Seriously the North were completely ok supporting the Boltons, who assisted in the Red wedding and were terrorizing people by flaying them alive. ?. The umbers willingly gave over a Legimate Stark Heir to Ramsay Bolton just because they didn’t like Wildings...etc. But ooo Targaryens bad!

 

seriously the North in the show sucks.

Edited September 17, 2018 by GraceK

[LadyChaos]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

Cersei blew up a Sept full of people, murdering hundreds and I did not see her doing any PR campaign about she was benevolent and kind? She got the Tarlys to side with her based on greed - Jaime promising them Highgarden -  and xenophobia about the Dothraki savages. Just like Umber turned against the Starks/Jon because he brought the Wildlings across the wall. Cersei is not capitalizing on being nice. She is parading her prisoners in chains through the streets and slowly poisoning them to death in her dungeons. 

Does Tyrion think that a long seige of KL would give Dany good PR among the people of KL?

The Tarlys had already made up their mind. Randyll repeatedly insults Dany in front of everyone, refuses to bend the knee, is a traitor, refuses to go to the wall and ultimately left Dany with no choice.

Which lord is ruling with kindness here? Sansa wanted to throw children from their homes - even after they bend the knee and pledge allegiance to Jon! Jon himself only allows them to continue in their ancestral homes because they bend the knee. Or they would have been out with the Smallfolk, forced to survive like Arya. Olenna advises Dany to be a dragon. Ellaria poisoned Myrcella. The Greyjoys are pirates and raiders.

Who has good PR about being this nice, kind, benevolent ruler in Westeros? GRRM himself has said that it is not enough to be a good ruler but that one has to have the power and strength to take the throne and hold it. That's how Aegon the conqueror did it. That's why Robert Baratheon's rule fell apart in 15 years.

Dany herself explains this to Jon - We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.

Ned was the only person who showed kindness trying to save children - look what happened to him.

So....what your saying is.....they are all horrible people and no one should sit the iron throne... XD

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, LadyChaos said:

So....what your saying is.....they are all horrible people and no one should sit the iron throne... XD

The NK is clearly the hero of this story ?

[LadyChaos]

Just now, GraceK said:

The NK is clearly the hero of this story ?

Obviously!

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

So....what your saying is.....they are all horrible people and no one should sit the iron throne... XD

The nobles of Westeros are all selfish and power hungry and the smallfolk bear the brunt of that. That is what GRRM basically explores in the books - the entire broken man speech from AFfC.

Dany tries to undo slavery and bring peace to Meereen - but at the end of ADwD, even though she makes many concessions,  she is unsuccessful in doing this. A dragon plants no trees. I think when she tries to enact change in Westeros, it will be through her dragon power and not through negotiations. Though I am not sure if this 'breaking the wheel' stuff is show only.

Edited September 17, 2018 by anamika

[bubble sparkly]

Friki mentioned yesterday that Tyrion betrays Dany. I think it was in the comments of his freefolk post, but don’t hold me to it. In his thing last week he said the Starks (maybe on Twitter, although again don’t hold me to that).

From what I can see Friki has provided no information as to what this alleged betrayal entails, so I’m assuming his questionable source hasn’t told him the why, who or how.