Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[nikma]

17 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

on't see how there would be a snowball's chance in hell that they would mention a such a big spoiler, even

Because 99% of the audience thinks there is no chance that Tyrion will die so it feels like a joke. 

 

And Jonathan Pryce spoiled Green Trial.

18 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

51 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

It makes me doubt. I'd say it confirms they watch YT GoT videos or read freefolk

I really doubt this. Friki's leaks never got to mainstream media like Lads'.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

He said that's not true. 

So it's a coincidence that he only came up with detailed episode by episode spoilers just before (and while) the season aired? He talked about /Awayforthelads' leaks on his channel as soon as he could. It stands to reason that he leaked them when he got them, which was right before (and during) the season, which is not what happened here.

Quote

And off season never lasted this long. If he says it's spoiler, than it is. There is no reason not to trust him

There is reason to be skeptical about his information, since it's obviously not from the same sources as before: if Friki had had good information six months out in previous seasons, he would have vomited all over his Youtube channel the moment he acquired it, as he did with /Awayforthelads' information.

Instead, we get this...

1. Tyrion and Sansa both betray Dany and Jon in the Dragonpit! DOUBLE BETRAYAL IS GO!

2. LOL I was kidding you guys! That was just a theory! Hahaha double betrayal who does that?

3. Tyrion betrays Dany and is executed for treason in the dragonpit. This is totally serious and completely legit and you should 100% believe me.

1-3 happened over the course of a little over a week. Just saying.

Now, it could be the case that the double betrayal video got the attention of a genuine source who leaked the Tyrion betrayal to Frikidoctor afterwards, but this is not Frikidoctor's usual MO and I'm very skeptical that it's his usual source.

Quote

We don't know that. He said he belives in this spoiler just like he believed in the past, whic probably means he has the same source. 

It's not the same source, since the previous source(s) never had anything until right before the season aired.

Quote

And this even more confirmes Friki IMO. 

No, it suggests the opposite, just like D&D joking about fighting over who gets to write the episode where Sansa dies in Season 8.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

Ok.

[LadyChaos]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 

Instead, we get this...

1. Tyrion and Sansa both betray Dany and Jon in the Dragonpit! DOUBLE BETRAYAL IS GO!

2. LOL I was kidding you guys! That was just a theory! Hahaha double betrayal who does that?

3. Tyrion betrays Dany and is executed for treason in the dragonpit. This is totally serious and completely legit and you should 100% believe me.

1-3 happened over the course of a little over a week. Just saying.

 

I'm not very familiar with Friki, but this to me reads like:  

OMG! I GOT THIS NEWS I NEED TO SHARE!!!!!   

Oh wait!  Looks like that source that gave me that news was lying or retracted what they said....better CYA...I'll make it a joke...

OMG! I GOT THIS NEW NEWS TO SHARE......hopefully, its legit this time...

 

If the first one wasn't actually a joke, and he took what the first person said as legit, and then he was forced to backpedal ..... hopefully it wasn't the same source that told him that Tyrion betrays Dany.......

 

Honestly, I won't believe anything till I see it on screen.  When I took a screen writing class:  my Professor who used to work in films would say this:  

What ends up actually airing, is less than half of the original script.  

Screenwriters write a script and hand it out to the directer.  The director decides 'well...lets do this scene this way, or he can say this instead...'.  

Then the actor forgets his/her line, or decides to improv, and the Director likes it so they use that instead.  

Then it goes to editing, where scenes get cut down, end up on the cutting room floor all together, or they decide they don't like the way it looks so they call all the people involved and tell them it needs to be reshot.

Then it goes out as dailies to watched, and reviewed.  Maybe they don't like a scene, maybe they don't like the way a character acts, ect..... TPTB take that information and decide another scene needs to be cut, or reshot, or an entire episode needs to be taken back to the drawing board... It's rare, he said, but its been known to happen for an entire episode to have to be reshot...

 

Now, I SEVERELY DOUBT that on a show like GoT, that they would take an entire cast and crew back to a location specific shoot to redo an entire episode....but my point is, this early before 801 airs,  I won't believe anything, but it can all be changed if TPTB want it to be.   Also, if the this leak is real, don't rule out that alternate footage has not already been shot.  I know of several movies or shows where TPTB wavered on how they wanted to end it, so they shot 2-3 different endings, and made the decision in the editing room or let them be view in dailies and see what got the best feed back.

[Raachel2008]

Is there a spoiler compilation somewhere? Cause 92 pages is a lot.

Also, let me see if I understand this part, which seems to be the general idea:  Tyrion is jealous of Jon/Dany (duh) and betrays them because of that? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.  The way I see it there are only a couple of reasons Tyrion would ever betray Dany: a) to save Jamie; b) to save Cersei's unborn child. The latter would requires that someone actively wants to murder the child, an action that doesn't suit none of the characters currently on the show; so I'm going with the former - assuming there is some truth in all that. I guess there is always a chance Dany will go Mad King, but I doubt.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Raachel2008

[LadyChaos]

47 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Is there a spoiler compilation somewhere? Cause 92 pages is a lot.

Also, let me see if I understand this part, which seems to be the general idea:  Tyrion is jealous of Jon/Dany (duh) and betrays them because of that? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.  The way I see it there are only a couple of reasons Tyrion would ever betray Dany: a) to save Jamie; b) to save Cersei's unborn child. The latter would requires that someone actively wants to murder the child, an action that doesn't suit none of the characters currently on the show; so I'm going with the former - assuming there is some truth in all that. I guess there is always a chance Dany will go Mad King, but I doubt.

That seems to be the spoiler, most of the past 15-20 pages though, is us arguing whether or not the 'leak' is a real leak so there really isn't much to compile.

 

 Also, unless I missed something.....isn't Cersei supposed to miscarry her baby?  That it was supposed to happen at the end of s7 but was pushed to 801?

[glowbug]

Friki didn’t give a reason for Tyrion’s betrayal or say what the manner of betrayal is. The how and why is still a mystery. 

[nikma]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

 

What ends up actually airing, is less than half of the original script

For TV that's not true. You can read leaked outline for S7 and 90% is the same as what actually aired.

[anamika]

GRRM is clearly writing a character who is becoming more darker as the books proceed, whom he has straight up called a villain, who is written as someone who becomes extremely bitter when a pretty women rejects him, who actually raped a powerless slave because her eyes showed that she was repulsed by him....Need I go on? He currently dislikes Sansa because she left him behind to be framed for her crimes, he dislikes Jaime because of what he allowed to happen to Tysha and covering up for Tywin, he wants to rape Cersei and kill her. What is GRRM intending for in making Tyrion a rapist?

Besides we have all the prophecies in the books pointing the way - Quaithe asking Dany not to trust Tyrion, Dany's 'treason for love'.

I can see GRRM writing opposite trajectories for Jaime and Tyrion where Jaime finally gets it and fights on the side of the Starks/Brienne and Tyrion turns against them.

Show Tyrion is extremely whitewashed compared to the book version. But why then introduce the Tyrion - Dany -Jon love triangle? What is the outcome of this triangle?  Tyrion is one of the most important characters in the series. What is his story in the final season other than being Dany's adviser?

With respect to the outline, readers like me still hold onto it because the basic premise of the outline for the most part has held true. For example:

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Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Sansa's story in both the books and the show has been about loyalty to her family. In book one, she consistently sides against her family and her betrayal is partially responsible for what happens to Ned, Arya and Jeyne. In AFfC, she goes along with the slow poisoning of her little cousin because LF knows best. In season 6 she lies to Jon and withholds important information from him resulting in Jon telling her that they cannot keep fighting each other.  As recent as season 7, the show continued to explore whether Sansa was loyal to her family or not- they wrote her as going so far as to consider executing her little sister and deposing her half brother so that she could rule as Queen with LF by her side.  With her taking down LF last season, her story is more or less done. She finally chose family over her desire for power.

Similarly, outline Bran has prophetic dreams and goes beyond the wall - now with Meera instead of Arya. Outline Arya continues to develop as a character and becomes a fighter. Outline Tyrion continues to get disenchanted with his family. Outline Dany wants to invade Westeros. Outline Jon is at the wall becoming a ranger of great daring and having a secret parentage that could have an affect on his romance.

Finally what is an ending that has all the actors talking about how unpredictable and bitter sweet it is, that a lot of people may not like, that it will not satisfy everyone - Jon/Dany dying or Tyrion turning traitor and getting executed? Pretty much most of the actors think that Jon/Dany are not going to sit the Iron Throne. Kit Harington laid out a case for why Tyrion was going to end up sitting on the Iron Throne during promotion for season 7. According to Kit, Tyrion was the only character qualified and had the 'nous' for ruling. More recently, Kit's first response when asked about the ending was that not everyone was going to like it and that like the ending of other great shows, it could be divisive.

I think Maisie Williams and NCW are the only two actors who come off as being wholly satisfied with the final season in interviews. And they could just be happy about their individual arcs.

Edited September 14, 2018 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I think Maisie Williams and NCW are the only two actors who come off as being wholly satisfied with the final season in interviews. And they could just be happy about their individual arcs.

I think most of the actors are satisfied with the ending. But they understand not everyone in the audience will feel the same, because people likes happy endings, everyone has a favorite character, etc. and they are trying to warns us.

[bubble sparkly]

If Tyrion does betray Dany and the Starks next season, I don't think it necessarily has to be just about him being jealous of the Dany/Jon romance.  S7 did a good job of setting up Tyrion's numerous failures as Hand, and his annoyance at being effectively replaced by Jon as Dany's lead advisor.

In 7x04 Dany was furious at Tyrion after the Casterly Rock debacle and wanted to fly her dragons to the red keep to attack Cersei.  Tyrion advised against it but Dany wasn't swayed until Jon made an impassioned plea to her.  In 7x05 Dany disregarded Tyrion's advice about how to deal with the Tarlys.  Then in 7x06 he told her not to chase after Jon and co beyond the wall and she ignored him and flew off to the rescue.  Finally, in 7x07 Dany overruled all her advisors and decided to sail North "together" at Jon's suggestion.

I could definitely see Tyrion becoming worried that Dany will no longer require his services, especially once Jon's Targ history is revealed.

[anamika]

I am pretty certain that they will try to justify Tyrion's betrayal so much on the show that the guys doing the trial and execution will come off as the bad guys - could explain Emilia's comments. Dany killing good guy and fan favorite Tyrion via Dracarys is the audience last impression of her? Emilia must be bracing for the hate. 

There was also that architectural digest magazine which claimed that Emilia's last scene or scenes were filmed in Dubrovnik. I wonder how that relates to all this and how true that was. 

All in all, I am now pretty certain that Dany survives and is some kind of endgame leader. 

[nikma]

@anamika I agree with everything you said in your long post. Tyrion's betrayal and death is a logical culmination of his story in the books, and we know D and D will use book ending for every major character. Will his death and betrayal in the show feel like a logical culmination of his story remains to be seen, but it will happen no matter what.

And I agree that there will be fans that won't like this ending. I think Meereen's storyline  in both the books and the show made Dany unpopular with some fans. She is still fan favorite and one of the most popular characters, but she is divisive character in the fandom(far more than Jon or Arya for example), but that makes her interetsing IMO. She is not Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter. So Dany on the Iron Throne, which seems inevitable at this point, ,will be something some fans won't like. And Jon being on her side, as king, which ii almost as inevitable, will have some fans whine about "Disney ending". And killing Tyrion as still the most popular character in the show, will also be unpopular for some, especially since he won't be killed by Cersei, but Dany and the Starks.

Quote

As for the expected fan reception of the series finale, Hempstead Wright was blunt: “It won’t go the way some people want,” he said. “It will be too happy for some people, or too sad, or too whatever. That’s the nature of an ending.”

For me, this reads now as Jon and Dany as rulers and Tyrion dead.

Edited September 14, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think most of the actors are satisfied with the ending. But they understand not everyone in the audience will feel the same, because people likes happy endings, everyone has a favorite character, etc. and they are trying to warns us.

I dunno. It’s their job to hype the show, and “Not everyone will like it” is the best they can do? It’s PR speak for “Everyone will hate it.” It’s the equivalent of “charming” in real estate listings.

If /BoatsexBaby is correct about the Dragonpit sequence occurring in the first half of the episode, that can’t possibly be what Emilia was referencing with her “last flavour” comments.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

that can’t possibly be what Emilia was referencing with her “last flavour” comments.

I don-t think she literally meant her last scene.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, nikma said:

I don-t think she literally meant her last scene.

Her “It fucked me up, knowing etc. etc.” quote came on the heels of the author stating that Emilia had already filmed her character’s final moments, so it is referencing her last scene.

If Dany’s last scene was filmed in Dubrovnik, and given that they filmed something down at the pier and set up the pier with a canopy and some harbour-type props, there are a few possibilities:

1. Dany leaves Westeros for good.

2. Dany sees someone off as they leave Westeros for good. (The only characters whose actors we know for certain were in Dubrovnik are Cersei and Jon, though.)

3. (Queen?) Dany welcomes a new arrival to KL.

I don’t see any scenario where Dany dies if Dany’s last scene of GOT was filmed in Dubrovnik.

If Dany has to leave Westeros, alone and dragonless, no wonder Emilia is upset. Maybe King Bran kicks her out, which would explain the rumours about Isaac being in Dubrovnik.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

I am pretty certain that they will try to justify Tyrion's betrayal so much on the show that the guys doing the trial and execution will come off as the bad guys - could explain Emilia's comments. Dany killing good guy and fan favorite Tyrion via Dracarys is the audience last impression of her? Emilia must be bracing for the hate. 

If Dany does kill Tyrion for his betrayal, you aren't kidding about the hate that will be coming her way. Lots of fans already hate her and other fans will turn on her. Ugh. It will be ugly.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I dunno. It’s their job to hype the show, and “Not everyone will like it” is the best they can do? It’s PR speak for “Everyone will hate it.” It’s the equivalent of “charming” in real estate listings.

If /BoatsexBaby is correct about the Dragonpit sequence occurring in the first half of the episode, that can’t possibly be what Emilia was referencing with her “last flavour” comments.

I think most viewers are aware that 'everyone will love the ending' would be ridiculous, given the entire story thus far. No one would buy that if they tried to sell it.

[GrailKing]

I'm still on the fence with Danny, I agree Randyl Tarley had to be dealt with, but fire was the wrong way to go.

Dickon was a young kid and she deafeningly had options besides fire or death for him.

She's trying to do the morally right thing, but she too easily falls back her dragon.

At some point she needs to move back from burning people as punishment, and those dragons HAVE to die.

[nikma]

Dany won't only kill Tyrion, but Varys as well who is also popular character. Yeah, she will be hated, but she will be queen at the end. Maybe that's the point. Dany will be "mad queen", but she will rule. Villain will win. 

I don't think that Dany will really be villain, but for a lot of people she will be. It will be a victory of ruthless tyrant.

[GraceK]

I love how when it’s a woman executing traitors without feeling guilty she’s a ruthless tyrant. ? 

also screw Dickon. He killed himself. #dickontarlyisanidiot ???

Edited September 14, 2018 by GraceK

[GraceK]

I am so sick of hearing about the poor Tarleys. Seriously. Cardboard was more interesting than Dickon. He only became interesting when Drogon toasted him ????

Edited September 14, 2018 by GraceK

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I'm still on the fence with Danny, I agree Randyl Tarley had to be dealt with, but fire was the wrong way to go.

Dickon was a young kid and she deafeningly had options besides fire or death for him.

Dickon Tarley wasn't "young kid." He was a grown man who chose his own fate without any regard for the fates of his mother and sister. As for his father, fire is the appropriate way for a Human Dragon to kill her enemy.

Edited September 14, 2018 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I dunno. It’s their job to hype the show, and “Not everyone will like it” is the best they can do? It’s PR speak for “Everyone will hate it.” It’s the equivalent of “charming” in real estate listings.

Maybe sometimes they hype to sell it (the show). And perhaps sometimes they warn us to sell it

[onyxrose81]

21 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Dickon Tarley wasn't "young kid." He was a grown man who chose his own fate without any regard for the fates of his mother and sister. As for his father, fire is the appropriate way for a Human Dragon to kill her enemy.

OMG, this.  These assholes chose their fates.  Randyll had to die (because he said Daenerys didn't have authority to send him to The Wall) but Dickon chose to die, without thinking of what would befall the rest of his family.  Even your father wanted you to bend the knee dude.  No tears shed for that stupid family. 

[SimoneS]

And another thing, by burning the Tarleys, Dany got the other lords to submit to her rule so she didn't have to kill more of them.

 

59 minutes ago, nikma said:

Dany won't only kill Tyrion, but Varys as well who is also popular character.

Wait, how do you know that Dany also kills Varys? Was there another leak?

[nikma]

58 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I love how when it’s a woman executing traitors without feeling guilty she’s a ruthless tyrant

Don't play that card on me. I'm not Stannis' fan and I think he is monster.

I was talking how part of the audience will see Dany after she kills Varys ans Tyrion and if you think that won't happen you are delusional. 

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

 

 

Wait, how do you know that Dany also kills Varys? Was there another leak?

It's my assumption.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Dany won't only kill Tyrion, but Varys as well who is also popular character.

Who said she will kill Varys?

Imo, if Tyrion becomes a villain and places his personal interest, family interest, and/or sentimental woes before the good of the realm, there are more chances that Varys will be on the other side, with Dany and the Starks.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

If Dany does kill Tyrion for his betrayal, you aren't kidding about the hate that will be coming her way. Lots of fans already hate her and other fans will turn on her. Ugh. It will be ugly.

Dany haters will hate Dany no matter what. See all the complicated and unbelievable scenarios they invent to blame her for everything including bad hair days; it will be the same. If I rely on how the show dealt so far with more or less sympathetic characters who became "villains", people might understand but not root for Tyrion. The love is still here, but Tyrion had already lost his mojo with many during S7.

It might even be funny or at least ironic because many (not all) Dany haters are Sansa stans, and they hate Tyion, too. Imagine the crocodile tears!

Let's not forget that Friki said Tyrion betrayed "the Starks". Certainly not "just" Dany. The Beloved Starks + Khaleesi vs Tyrion? Imo, even if people cry over Tyrion's demise, I don't think there's even a match here

Edited September 14, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

My theory is that Dany will kill Varys. We know he will die and IMO Daenerys is the only character that could kill him for his death to have some purpose. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

My theory is that Dany will kill Varys. We know he will die and IMO Daenerys is the only character that could kill him for his death to have some purpose. 

His death would have more of a purpose if he were the Moral Event Horizon for Tyrion, like burning Shireen was for Stannis.

[Eyes High]

Varys is absent from the Dragonpit lineup, but he probably makes it at least to 8x05, since he was spotted in Northern Ireland in June with Pilou.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Dickon Tarley wasn't "young kid." He was a grown man who chose his own fate without any regard for the fates of his mother and sister. As for his father, fire is the appropriate way for a Human Dragon to kill her enemy.

Everything around the burning of the Tarlys, not only the writing and framing of it but also the explicit Aerys parallel, was D&D making their case in very obvious and contrived fashion that Dany is unfit to be queen. It wasn’t a good look, and it was never intended to be a good look. Compare the framing of Jon’s decision to execute the conspirators with the framing of Dany’s decision to execute the Tarlys if you have any doubt.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

21 minutes ago, nikma said:

Don't play that card on me. I'm not Stannis' fan and I think he is monster.

I was talking how part of the audience will see Dany after she kills Varys ans Tyrion and if you think that won't happen you are delusional. 

It's my assumption.

Daenerys and Stannis are both monsters. It's the fate of all those that rule. Can't lead without getting your hands dirty.

 

As Thoros said, "War makes monsters of us all."

Edited September 14, 2018 by WindyNights

[nikma]

12 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

His death would have more of a purpose if he were the Moral Event Horizon for Tyrion, like burning Shireen was for Stannis.

What do you mean?

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

D&D making their case in very obvious and contrived fashion that Dany is unfit to be queen

Alone! But together with Jon, they are perfect combination 

[MrsR]

Conleth spotted in Northern Ireland means nothing. That's where he lives.

[LadyChaos]

Jon does seem to be able to balance Dany out.

[Happy Harpy]

40 minutes ago, nikma said:

What do you mean?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon

In the eyes of most (but his most devoted fans, YMMV) burning Shireen rendered Stannis irredeemable. Killing off his friend Varys, a character the audience cares about, for his purely personal ambitions (for example) could render Tyrion irredeemable in the eyes of many.

[MrsR]

Conleth Hill has a ton of projects completed including a film where he's the lead. I suspect Varys dies very early in the season.

Edited September 14, 2018 by MrsR

[nikma]

8 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon

In the eyes of most (but his most devoted fans, YMMV) burning Shireen rendered Stannis irredeemable. Killing off his friend Varys, a character the audience cares about, for his purely personal ambitions (for example) could render Tyrion irredeemable in the eyes of many.

Yeah, but that would mean D&D want Varys to be victim and good guy. And I'm not sure that's what they want.

[OhOkayWhat]

If I look at the ongoing Dany-Tyrion narrative in the show, I'm pretty sure it will not be jealousy or personal ambitions the reason of Tyrion downfall.

[Happy Harpy]

50 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yeah, but that would mean D&D want Varys to be victim and good guy. And I'm not sure that's what they want.

Varys began as "the sneaky bald guy". Remember in S1-S2, he was vastly considered as shaddy as Littlefinger. He was revealed in S4 onward as a champion of the people, I'd even say he's currently one of the most disinterested characters if only in the sense that he doesn't want the throne for himself and works for the common good.

He's already evolved as a character, so I don't think he will revert to "bad". He's afraid that Dany becomes like her father, yes, but he doesn't think she will with someone to moderate her and here comes Jon Snow (I personally don't think it's a risk, but I'm talking about Varys' POV). Moreover, Dany vs NK = the destruction of the people or Dany vs Cersei = the oppression of the people, I can't imagine he'd switch sides and less once he's seen the threat with his own eyes.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

24 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Varys began as "the sneaky bald guy". Remember in S1-S2, he was vastly considered as shaddy as Littlefinger. He was revealed in S4 onward as a champion of the people, I'd even say he's currently one of the most disinterested characters if only in the sense that he doesn't want the throne for himself and works for the common good.

He's already evolved as a character, so I don't think he will revert to "bad". He's afraid that Dany becomes like her father, yes, but he doesn't think she will with someone to moderate her and here comes Jon Snow (I personally don't think it's a risk, but I'm talking about Varys' POV). Moreover, Dany vs NK = the destruction of the people or Dany vs Cersei = the oppression of the people, I can't imagine he'd switch sides and less once he's seen the threat with his own eyes.

 

I have nothing to disapprove this, but I still feel that Dany will kill him when he betrays her 

Edited September 14, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

11 minutes ago, nikma said:

I have nothing to disapprove this, but I still feel that Dany will kill kim when he betrays her 

Agree to disagree :)

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Jon does seem to be able to balance Dany out.

On a romantic level, is the message that a man can/should make a female ruler become a better person, and that a man can/should change a woman's nature? 

Isn't that kind of...gross?

On a political level, shouldn't we want a ruler's instincts to be correct in the first place? Listening to advisors is one thing. But rulers can also decide not to listen to them or they can forget the message because their emotions are more powerful than advice.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Dickon Tarley wasn't "young kid." He was a grown man who chose his own fate without any regard for the fates of his mother and sister. As for his father, fire is the appropriate way for a Human Dragon to kill her enemy.

NOT ! if you want to win the hearts and minds of the natives, didn't work for her father, I don't think it will work for her.

Rhaegar had the love of the people, he burned no one. His political move is another matter.

[nikma]

24 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

On a romantic level, is the message that a man can/should make a female ruler become a better person, and that a man can/should change a woman's nature? 

It would be, if Jon was shown as perfect ruler. But he is far from perfect, so they are balancing each other, creating harmony, a song of ice and fire. 

 

I think Jon will change Dany's nature. But Dany will change his as well. They both have what the other side lacks. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by nikma

[Colorful Mess]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

It would be, if Jon was shown as perfect ruler. But he is far from perfect, so they are balancing each other, creating harmony, a song of ice and fire. 

 

I think Jon will change Dany's nature. But Dany will change his as well. They both have what the other side lacks. 

What is Jon learning from Dany?

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

What is Jon learning from Dany?

He is too pasive, annoyingly humble, uninterested in politics and ruling and lacks passion. He is ice and he needs some fire in his life LOL. 

[SimoneS]

29 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

NOT ! if you want to win the hearts and minds of the natives, didn't work for her father, I don't think it will work for her.

Rhaegar had the love of the people, he burned no one. His political move is another matter.

Like all great conquerors and rulers in history, Dany wanted obedience and loyalty from the lords which saved more lives in the long run which is what matters. Conquerors only win "hearts and minds" in fictional worlds. In real life, they are pretty hated until maybe the next generations come along and are never loved. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by SimoneS

[tangerine95]

I don't think it's like Dany needs Jon to rule or Jon needs Dany or they can't be good rulers.I think they both would be capable on their own because they've achieved a lot alone already.But they are better together,like LF said they would be difficult to defeat and all that.

Edited September 14, 2018 by tangerine95

[nikma]

Friki will give more spoilers about Tyrion tomorrow!