Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Leila6]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

In all these predictions, I'm working backward from the assumption that a person who happens to love fire is responsible for this:

 

Just because she has an affinity for fire, you think she sets Winterfell aflame? That’s a big leap.

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

Just because she has an affinity for fire, you think she sets Winterfell aflame? That’s a big leap.

No, I have political reasons, like I've been explaining in all of my posts.

There is also prophecy/book foreshadowing reasons. But this thread isn't the place to get into it.

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

No, I have political reasons, like I've been explaining in all of my posts.

There is also prophecy/book foreshadowing reasons. But this thread isn't the place to get into it.

?‍♀️

So all the filming info, set leaks, and spoiler information has yet to disprove you of your Daenerys is the prophesied bringer of death theory who Jon is only pretending to be in love with? ????? right on. Keep on trucking ?

[glowbug]

Jon is not pretending to support Dany or pretending to be in love with her. There is absolutely zero evidence to support this and heaps of evidence that indicates the opposite. Jon couldn’t even lie to Cersei about bending the knee to Dany and supporting her claim even though she and everyone else wanted him to. That would have been a less dishonorable lie than pretending to be in love with a woman and pretending to believe in her when secretly he doesn’t. Especially since it was completely unnecessary for him to do so since he bent the knee after she agreed to help fight the White Walkers. 

[Colorful Mess]

Yes, I'm going to keep believing that there will be a Dance of Dragons 2.0, because GRRM has confirmed that it will happen. He let it slip at a signing in 2006 that the DoD 2.0 is NOT about Dany's invasion (commonly believed to be fAegon) - so what else is it?

I'm also going to believe that there ARE twists in the story.

I'm also going to continue to believe that both GRRM and D&D are on the same page in terms of their desire to outrage readers/audiences. They both relish in it and have mentioned how much they enjoy it interviews.

You can continue to make safe predictions like zombies vs. dragons and I'll focus on the human conflicts. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

I am hoping that Nymeria shows up with her Wolfpack to fight . I need to see Ghost next season I miss him.

Preferably, Nymeria saves people who found shelter at the Inn at the Crossroads (I think it could be a point of convergence in the books, considering all the characters roaming in the Riverlands) including Hot Pie, time for the cavalry to arrive including Ghost, when they're attacked by a WW and his wights. Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie reunite. Siblings Ghost and Nymeria reunite. Heartwarming moment around a big wights pyre.

3 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

Just because she has an affinity for fire, you think she sets Winterfell aflame? That’s a big leap.

Don't you know? Mad Qweeeeen theory! Generally, the leap is big enough for Jon's twue wuw to be some Pwetty Pwincess Fartsweets. Or for Stannis the Elvis to still be alive and Azor Ahai.

[WindyNights]

30 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yes, I'm going to keep believing that there will be a Dance of Dragons 2.0, because GRRM has confirmed that it will happen. He let it slip at a signing in 2006 that the DoD 2.0 is NOT about Dany's invasion (commonly believed to be fAegon) - so what else is it?

I'm also going to believe that there ARE twists in the story.

I'm also going to continue to believe that both GRRM and D&D are on the same page in terms of their desire to outrage readers/audiences. They both relish in it and have mentioned how much they enjoy it interviews.

You can continue to make safe predictions like zombies vs. dragons and I'll focus on the human conflicts. 

 

It's Faegon v Daenerys. GRRM said it doesn't necessarily mean Dany's invasion but he's just being coy about it.

 

All the spoilers for GOT say that this will be fairly predictable. The only unpredictable part might be third twist but there's no time for DoD 2.0 in 6 episodes 

Edited July 28, 2018 by WindyNights

[Colorful Mess]

15 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

It's Faegon v Daenerys. GRRM said it doesn't necessarily mean Dany's invasion but he's just being coy about it.

Sure, being coy - but about what Targaryen claimant? There's more evidence for it being Jon than fAegon, at this point - where we can see it being set up in the show thus far.

You can go back to his original story, when he still thought it was a trilogy. Book 2 was intended to be called Dance with Dragons and he wanted to write that primarily about threat #2 - Dany and her landing in Westeros. I doubt he'd waste this title on a silly Blackfyre pretender.  

If "Dance with Dragons" echoing the first Dance was so important to be worth a book title and a part of Dany's arc worth an entire book, fAegon didnt even show up in the show. That's suspicious. We should move on to Targaryen claimant #2. We need to move on from old theories - D&D know more than any of us. And since they know more than you or I, they've decided to include references to it in the show! In conversations with Shireen/Stannis, in the title of said episode, and with a song by Djawadi. That's show foreshadowing.

“Not all men are meant to dance with dragons.” (Barristan, A Dance with Dragons) - this is Quentyn. If she confronts fAegon, the same will probably be said of him.

But someone is meant to dance with dragons, and it's not referring to Dany dancing with Jon at their wedding.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

Didn’t we get a few spoiler sources confirming that the dance is Dany v NK dragon battle?

Besides, how can there be a dance between Dany and Jon when she has 2 dragons and like 100k troops, and he has no dragons and about 10k troops? It would take Dany like 2 seconds to beat Jon. Even if Jon can ride Rhaegal, he won’t be able to get Rhaegal to turn against and attack his own mother.

The funniest thing to me about the Undercover Jon theory (aside from how Jon is apparently secretly in love with Sansa lol) is that there was no reason for Jon to seek out Dany for sex on the boat if he wasn’t in love with her. Dany was already sailing North with her armies to help him, so it’s not like he needed to try and seduce her into an alliance. I guess Jon could have just been really horny and unable to resist the lure of Dany’s beauty, but considering he’s been happily celibate for a while and turned down sex with Mel that seems incredibly unlikely. Plus, you know, the whole voiceover saying they were in love.

Also, how far is Jon willing to take this alleged undercover operation? If they both survive the war is he just going abandon his child with Dany (which there were numerous anvils for) and stay up North with his one true love Sansa? Or will Jon have to move to KL, marry Dany and stay undercover for the rest of his life to stay with his child? Should have kept it in your pants Jon lol!

[GraceK]

Also, for anyone who still is under the DELUSIONAL idea that Jon is not in love with Dany and that this is all a ploy, please feel free to go out and buy the Blu Ray for season 7 and listen to the commentaries. Showrunners and directors all say during the Dragon and Wolf that what Jon feels for Dany is fate, that he knows it is something beyond himself. They say more than once that it is LOVE and what this series has been aiming for.  And than Daenarys loves him. Pull  off the Dany hate bandaid and learn to deal with it please. So to bring this back to season 8, there is no way Dance of the dragons is going to involve a Dany Vs Jon. It’s pretty much set up to be NK/viserion vs Dany/Drogon or Jon/Rhaegal. 

Not to mention all the set leaks and spoiler information that has Dany and Jon fighting the good fight and kicking ass pretty much all through season 8. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by GraceK

[Stella]

1 hour ago, Leila6 said:

Just because she has an affinity for fire, you think she sets Winterfell aflame? That’s a big leap.

Emilia Clarke's comments on Season 8 are pretty revealing. First off she was so blown away by the scripts that:

Quote

Okay, so I read the scripts this season, and I…in some kind of a daze walked out of my house. The only thing I took was my keys, and about three hours later I arrived back home, and I still hadn’t taken it all in.

And more revealing is this:

Quote

It fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is…

So it's not really a big leap that she could burn down Winterfell or Kings Landing. There is plenty of foreshadowing. It seems a safe bet that Dany will not only be swooping in and burning wights. Whatever she does do it's bad enough that the actress is fucked up by it.

58 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

All the spoilers for GOT say that this will be fairly predictable.

Perhaps. But spoilers are a tricky business and nothing about the plot is definitely confirmed. To me Martin's attitudes and philosophy about war, about the hero being the villain of the other side can give us better clues about the story. I doubt it will be that predictable.

[tangerine95]

38 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, for anyone who still is under the DELUSIONAL idea that Jon is not in love with Dany and that this is all a ploy, please feel free to go out and buy the Blu Ray for season 7 and listen to the commentaries. Showrunners and directors all say during the Dragon and Wolf that what Jon feels for Dany is fate, that he knows it is something beyond himself. They say more than once that it is LOVE and what this series has been aiming for.  And than Daenarys loves him. Pull  off the Dany hate bandaid and learn to deal with it please. So to bring this back to season 8, there is no way Dance of the dragons is going to involve a Dany Vs Jon. It’s pretty much set up to be NK/viserion vs Dany/Drogon or Jon/Rhaegal. 

Not to mention all the set leaks and spoiler information that has Dany and Jon fighting the good fight and kicking ass pretty much all through season 8. 

Not even just the commentary,for season 7 we have actual outline leaks that give insight into what the characters are thinking and what the actors are supposed to portray and it's very clear in them that Jon is genuinely falling in love and after getting to know Dany believes she's a good person without any trace of trying to deceive her.

[Lemuria]

15 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

This is why I wouldn'y hold it against Sansa if she does get annoyed at Jon for bending the knee to Dany. The lessons her father taught her about northern loyalty stripped away, she recognises the need not to alienate the Northern Lords and what does Jon do? He gives away their independance without even consulting them, bends the knee to Daenerys when she has already agreed to come North to fight. Whether or not it is petty for the Northern lords to be angry at their independance being given away without Jon even taking with them frist, they will be angry and Sansa is aware of that.  

Just a question: with whom exactly did Tormen consult before he decided to bend the knee to Aegon?  Based on what I've read ( World of Fire and Ice, for example), the answer is no one. Some of his lords even objected, IIRC. Yet, he did it anyway.  He was the king and it was his obligation to not only make the decision but also to do it with all of his people's welfare in mind.

 

 I think Jon did the same thing. 

[GodsBeloved]

13 hours ago, nikma said:

Maybe they expected he would be able to convince her that the WW are her enemies as well and that she should fight them. I mean, that's what Jon promissed them at their last meeeting in E2.

I agree. The WW aren't stopping in the North. The Northerners might die first but they won't be the last victims. Dany joining the fight isn't only for the benefit of the North.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Didn’t we get a few spoiler sources confirming that the dance is Dany v NK dragon battle?

One spoiler source (/BoatsexBaby), but she (he?) actually has a legitimate insider feeding them information, for whatever that's worth.

/BoatsexBaby has also said that Mad Queen Dany isn't a thing, Jonsa isn't a thing, and that Jon and Dany remain in love until the end. Again, for whatever that's worth.

[bubble sparkly]

The North talks a big game about being independent, but the truth is they are now wholly incapable of functioning independently.  They became independent under Robb then proceeded to get their asses handed to them by the Lannisters/Freys/Boltons.  Epic fail.

The surviving Northerners then slunk home and were perfectly happy to stay under Bolton/Lannister rule, and refused to join Jon's quest to fight the Boltons (apart from the Mormonts and a couple of others).

Then the North relied on the Vale to save their asses in the BoTB, and were unable to defeat the Boltons without their outside help.  Frankly its extremely unbelievable that the Vale didn't request a marriage alliance with either Sansa or Jon as a reward for saving the North from its own incompetence.

Now with the battle against the NK, the North are relying on the Vale and the Wildlings to make up around half of its 10k strong army.  And Jon has said numerous times that they don't have enough men to fight the NK and his 100k strong army and are all going to die, which is why he went to Dany and requested her armies and her dragons.

So once again, the North are in a position where they are relying on someone else to save them from getting their asses handed to them again.  Jon said wights can't swim (although I guess they can deep sea dive to attach chains to a dragon lol), so Dany and her armies don't have to fight the WW.  They could stay on Dragonstone and see what happens, or else head back to Essos to chill in the sun. Or if Dany was feeling really petty, she could go to the Riverlands and wait for the Northerners to be killed, then fight the NK.  Once the war is over she could settle the Dothraki and Unsullied in the North, because the Starks, Glovers etc will all be dead so their castles will be up for grabs.

The North is demanding Dany's assistance and offering nothing in return, not even a marriage alliance.  They are in no position to dictate terms with anyone, because they are at the bottom of the food chain. The North must have a really short memory, because they seemed content under Robert's rule when he was in KL and pretty much left the North to its own devices.  Given Dany and Jon are in love, there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't go to KL and leave Sansa in charge as Warden of the North.  Unless she suddenly starts supporting rape or slavery, which is unlikely, then I'm sure Dany and Jon would have no problem leaving Sansa to her own devices.  So really, everybody wins.

[Colorful Mess]

I dont believe any "leak" where R+L=J has no significant impact on the story.

Jon's tragedy in S8 is that he could be making things infinitely worse. Going to Dany has already caused the Wall to fall - I think more disaster is in store with these two. R+L=J is a plot he couldn't have possibly predicted that probably turns her into an enemy. She burns some wights and stuff but the WW can't be harmed by fire, and they can also shoot dragons out of the sky. Bran can warg a dragon (Jon could too if he wanted, but that's probably for the books), and Jon can ride one. Then we have R+L=J acting like a ticking time bomb under the table. It's quite Hitchcock in its suspense. GRRM is the evil Santa - the patron saint of dramatic irony, and D&D are his holy helpers. If Jon manipulating Dany with nothing to show for it but a new enemy is outrageous to readers, he'd do it and laugh while writing it. I disagree that "there's no time." If its just Dany fighting the Night King with Jon and Arya fighting zombies this could have been a 120 minute movie (and a boring one at that, yuck). Even Tolkien had Denethor and Saruman, the "human conflict" going on during the fantastical one. People don't always do what's necessary or what they're supposed to during a crisis; humans are known to act self-interested and irrational during the worst possible times. 

As for why Jon called her MY KWEEN like some idiotic lovesick fool, i.e. Daario and Jorah, he was doing it when Dany was sailing south to meet with Cersei - so Dany probably doesn't look very committed to him. I think bending the knee was his last bargaining chip to get her to call off the trip OR he wants her to keep her promise regardless of how the ceasefire meeting goes. So, I'd rather believe Jon is still retaining a few brain cells here, rather than believe the alternative, that he gave up the North's sovereignty because she's pretty and sad and has nice skin. 

From a doylist POV, Jon needs to be in Dany's service before any "treasons" can be charged against him. So there's that plot development just hanging there as well, for book readers who know about those...

Edited July 29, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Lemuria]

13 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Going to Dany has already caused the Wall to fall - I think more disaster is in store with these two. 

 I respectfully disagree with this.  It didn't matter if the NK got a dragon and brought the Wall down.  The NK intended  to make the Wall  irrelevant.  He was marching his army to Eastwatch before Dany decided to come to the North.   I submit that he didn't intend to just camp in front of Eastwatch and play tiddlywinks.  There was a reason why he was marching to Eastwatch. 

If you look at the map that opens each episode, there is a major difference between the map in season seven and the maps in the first six seasons. Where there used to be ocean to the east of Eastwatch, there now is ice. This is not an ordinary winter, even as long as ordinary winters are in Westeros,  this was the Long Night and the NK was at his most powerful. It seems pretty clear that he intended to march his army around Eastwatch across the frozen ocean.  

 That being said, he knew that sooner or later, he would be confronting one or more dragons, which is why he came prepared. Viserion's death may have made it easier for him by shortening his route, but he was always getting around the Wall even if it never came down. 

JMO. YMMV

[Leila6]

3 hours ago, Stella said:

And more revealing is this:

Quote

It fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is…

So it's not really a big leap that she could burn down Winterfell or Kings Landing. There is plenty of foreshadowing. It seems a safe bet that Dany will not only be swooping in and burning wights. Whatever she does do it's bad enough that the actress is fucked up by it.

I disagree with your interpretation of Emilia’s comment. She was talking about filming Daenerys’s last scene, and whatever her last scene is, it won’t be burning down Winterfell, just by logic of chronology. More to the point, though, you’re interpreting this as Emilia being upset by whatever Dany’s last scene is. Whereas I think she’s saying it messed with her head, as an actress, to have to do the last scene for this character that she’s been playing for nearly a decade. She felt pressure, again as an actress, knowing that would be Dany’s “lasting flavor” for the audience, and she didn’t want to mess it up.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Then the North relied on the Vale to save their asses in the BoTB, and were unable to defeat the Boltons without their outside help.  Frankly its extremely unbelievable that the Vale didn't request a marriage alliance with either Sansa or Jon as a reward for saving the North from its own incompetence.

 

That may still happen, we don't know yet. As long as LF was still kicking; I'm sure Sansa and Jon would refuse them.

[whateverdgaf]

I do think that whilst the audience isn't being lead to see Daenerys as a 'Mad Queen'/tyrant, but they are being encouraged to see how others might view her as this (showing the Lannister army being destroyed from their pov, having Tyrion and Varys express doubt over her actions) and that will be something she will have to deal with. It might be that she proves herself a hero and her story is about her triumph having overcome the stigma of her father's past and repuation, or it may not. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[Colorful Mess]

13 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 I respectfully disagree with this.  It didn't matter if the NK got a dragon and brought the Wall down.  The NK intended  to make the Wall  irrelevant.  He was marching his army to Eastwatch before Dany decided to come to the North.   I submit that he didn't intend to just camp in front of Eastwatch and play tiddlywinks.  There was a reason why he was marching to Eastwatch. 

If you look at the map that opens each episode, there is a major difference between the map in season seven and the maps in the first six seasons. Where there used to be ocean to the east of Eastwatch, there now is ice. This is not an ordinary winter, even as long as ordinary winters are in Westeros,  this was the Long Night and the NK was at his most powerful. It seems pretty clear that he intended to march his army around Eastwatch across the frozen ocean.  

 That being said, he knew that sooner or later, he would be confronting one or more dragons, which is why he came prepared. Viserion's death may have made it easier for him by shortening his route, but he was always getting around the Wall even if it never came down. 

JMO. YMMV

Fair point--you're probably right.

But the timing of that dragon dying, the urgency of a zombie dragon now that can fly OVER the Wall at any moment, should affect the main plot, and the characters' actions, and the future perceptions of the Jon and Dany alliance.

After waking up in 0706, Jon has to know that anything dying North of the wall can be raised again.

That urgency, in addition to the fact that Dany appears to have none, and that he has no way for him to hold her to her promise, explains his actions, post wight hunt. He probably had "A Targaryen cannot be trusted" bouncing around in his head.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Wouter]

22 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yes, I'm going to keep believing that there will be a Dance of Dragons 2.0, because GRRM has confirmed that it will happen. He let it slip at a signing in 2006 that the DoD 2.0 is NOT about Dany's invasion (commonly believed to be fAegon) - so what else is it?

The Dance of Dragons in the books is most likely about (f)Aegon vs Dany. GRRM said it was not about Dany's invasion, but he means in the sense of Dany taking on the Lannisters and Tyrells etc. - that isn't going to be "the Dance". A Dance with Dragons wasn't even out in 2006, so the audience knew nothing about (f)Aegon at that time. It came as a surprise, along with hints that Arianne would side with (f)Aegon and his backers against Dany.

Since Aegon is not in the show, this probably means there isn't really an equivalent in the show. Dany confronted Cersei directly, whereas in the books (f)Aegon is already taking on Lannisters and their allies well before Dany even starts to move on Westeros (in the books, she has yet to gain the Dothraki to her cause). Instead, the showrunners threw up all kinds of mistakes and bad luck in her fight with Cersei, to stop her from winning easily. And the NK took one dragon, something Aegon may do in the books (should they ever get to that point).

I don't think there will be a dance in S8, other than the inevitable dragon-on-dragon fight with the NK.

 

The supposed leak about a meeting of Cersei and Melisandre at least sounds intriguing and original, even if it is most likely made up based on the "Bran them all" theory.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

The Dance of Dragons in the books is most likely about (f)Aegon vs Dany. GRRM said it was not about Dany's invasion, but he means in the sense of Dany taking on the Lannisters and Tyrells etc. - that isn't going to be "the Dance". A Dance with Dragons wasn't even out in 2006, so the audience knew nothing about (f)Aegon at that time. It came as a surprise, along with hints that Arianne would side with (f)Aegon and his backers against Dany.

This has many assumptions:

• "Invasion" excludes fAegon - we don't know that. Invasion comes in stages. In Aegon's day: "Aegon turned his attention back on Dorne in 4 AC. The king launched a new invasion, hoping to complete his conquest." (Aegon I wiki). fAegon could be included in a second stage of "Dany's invasion." Furthermore, we don't know who she will attack first. 
• The Dance ends with fAegon - we don't know that. It could be Part 1 of this entire "dance" anyway, because the first DoD was sprawling, and epic in scope. It probably involves more than just Varys' puppet vs. Dany's dragons. She could make short work of him, and the grey plague may even help thin out the Golden Company. Then we're left with a very weak reference to something that could be much more meaningful later on with a secret Targaryen (Jon) who will have more substantive interactions with her. So those romantic metaphors can take on more biting irony.
• fAegon can ride/steal a dragon successfully - are we sure? The first DoD had dragon riders fighting in the sky. Is fAegon going to be on that level, or ability, or narrative sense? The dude can't even ask for his own marriage proposal. He expects Jon Con to do it. I bet he will get roasted if he even tries. That's not very Dance-worthy, IMO.

Other issues I have with the fAegon = DoD 2.0 theory:

• GRRM will reject an opportunity for irony - but with two secret Targaryens on the game board, why would he? Imagine how he could write this: fAegon would have been her best chance at a Targaryen restoration. He's willing to marry her, has grown up assuming he's a Targaryen, shares her Targaryen philosophy, and is a "perfect prince" as anyone could want. But because she recognizes him as the mummer's dragon from the prophecy, she kills him. Then another secret Targaryen successfully maneuvers his way into commanding her forces  - she falls in love with him, but he has no interest in restoring the Targaryen dynasty for her. So the irony is that she could have had her Targaryen restoration dreams fulfilled with the fake Aegon, but the real Aegon has no interest in giving her that. You gotta think like an Evil Santa here!!
• Jon is different from the other people who want her dragons - he's really not. His intentions are different but he still wants her for her power, just like Quentyn, Victarion/Euron, and fAegon. "Beware of all" who come for her dragons - Quaithe's warning, which again makes me believe that the Dance doesn't stop with fAegon. If it did, she would have said something like "Beware of all - except that Jon Snow, he's ok."
• The dragons will be a force for good - I think as long as there are dragons on the game board, there is always an opportunity for a war involving them. It's not as if they're no longer a threat to Westeros. Fire isn't going to save the day; if folks believe that, they have to believe the crazy crack from the red priests in Essos.

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

I don't think there will be a dance in S8, other than the inevitable dragon-on-dragon fight with the NK.

There is no Night King in the books. So the show would be very off book in the home stretch, when they should be getting closer to GRRM's end by that point. If they replaced a Targ vs. Targ war with a Made-up-zombie-leader vs. a Targ, the entire significance of the term is lost. I know, I know, many people think they're just writing whatever they want, but I disagree with that view for S8. GRRM would be smart enough to write it in his contracts that they cannot completely rewrite the ending - there has to be some cohesion around the end. Different roads, same castle.

Like I mentioned previously, D&D appear to see how this past historical event can be used to foreshadow a familial war or tragedy coming down the pipe. Otherwise they wouldn't have had Shireen recount the story of Aegon vs. Rhaenyra out of the blue, in a scene where Stannis justifies killing a family member. That tragedy is likely foreshadowing a tough choice in the future for two Targaryens. If it was foreshadowing fighting zombie dragons, they should have at least had the Night King in that episode, but he doesn't even appear.

Winterfell burns, according to set photos - so I'll add more details to my speculation: I think Dany finds herself boxed in a corner up North. She has done work to help in good faith but the throne is still on her mind. She gets word that Cersei doesn't intend to honor the truce. Her forces are dwindling fast, because of the cold/wights. I suspect something is going down with Lyanna Mormont. Does she try to assassinate her on the kingsroad (hinted at in S7)? Would Dany retaliate by burning her? Then the news about the Tarlys gets out - likely at the worst possible time. Another blow: Jon has a higher claim that outranks her own, but he has no political capital to help her secure the North through marriage to him. He's also wary of marrying someone who burned his mother's namesake (you think GRRM pulled that name out of a hat?) I suspect Dany tries to make a last ditch attempt to claim the North - perhaps pressing for Tyrion and Sansa to consummate, so she can claim the North through their marriage. Perhaps these acts sets the Starks against her, causing her to realize she can only conquer the kingdoms (+ the North) by force. Then there are the prophecies: "bride of fire" (she calls Drogo's funeral pyre a wedding) + the "blue flower" (which I think is a Stark girl and/or Jon at Winterfell, not the Wall) = Dany throws a "wedding" of her own. However it goes down, I'm willing to entertain intrigue and twists here. Because yeah, I believe Jon and Dany are going to fight each other, on dragons.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

There is no Night King in the books. So the show would be very off book in the home stretch, when they should be getting closer to GRRM's end by that point. If they replaced a Targ vs. Targ war with a Made-up-zombie-leader vs. a Targ, the entire significance of the term is lost. I know, I know, many people think they're just writing whatever they want, but I disagree with that view for S8. GRRM would be smart enough to write it in his contracts that they cannot completely rewrite the ending - there has to be some cohesion around the end. Different roads, same castle.

 

Sure, but in this analogy, the "castle" would be the ending itself, not the stuff leading up to that ending (i.e. the battles). Therefore, by that token, wouldn't a show-only NK/Dany battle on dragonback simply be one of the "different roads"?

Quote

I suspect something is going down with Lyanna Mormont. Does she try to assassinate her on the kingsroad (hinted at in S7)? 

How on earth was this hinted in Season 7?

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I suspect Dany tries to make a last ditch attempt to claim the North - perhaps pressing for Tyrion and Sansa to consummate, so she can claim the North through their marriage

Dany would never do that. Say what you will about Dany, she has, shall we say, very strong feelings about women being raped by their husbands. 

Also, the North is no longer Sansa's to claim, since Jon is KITN and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell. Even if Sansa were still the heir to the North (which she isn't), Tyrion would be the one to claim the North through her, not Dany. (Dany would have to marry Sansa herself, and one Stark is quite enough for her, I think.)

Edited July 30, 2018 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I suspect something is going down with Lyanna Mormont. Does she try to assassinate her on the kingsroad (hinted at in S7)?

Nothing whatsoever hinted at that in Season 7.  Not to mention, Lyanna was barely in Season 7.

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He's also wary of marrying someone who burned his mother's namesake (you think GRRM pulled that name out of a hat?)

No, it's very obviously meant as a tip of the hat to Lyanna Stark.  However, you're making gigantic leaps to assume this means she's going to die at Dany's hand to guilt Jon.  Which also ignores that Lyanna isn't the Lady of Bear Island in the books, she still has a mother, several older sisters, and nieces and nephews.

[Happy Harpy]

There isn't positive proof that NCW and Lena filmed scenes together, right?

I think the Valonqar is going to be either Jaime or Tyrion, and the prophecy wasn't mentioned (yet) on the show so as to keep it a "surprise" for casual viewers and non book readers. My money used to be on Jaime, if only because Cersei has always been certain it's Tyrion, but I'm not so sure anymore since:

1) Tyrion already strangled a woman of importance in his life, one he loved and hated; whereas Jaime stressed at least twice on the show that there are things he can't do with only one hand. Could it be D&D hinting to book readers that Jaime won't be the Valonqar?

2) Tywin's last words to Cersei were "I don't believe you". Those were also the last words Jaime said to Cersei so far. But D&D love their parallels, so could those be his very last words to her, full stop?

On the show, Tyrion doesn't hate Cersei with the same violence as in the books. But there are reports that Jaime dies. What if it's the direct consequence of a trick Cersei pulled, ignoring once more the threat of the AOTD to gain a vain advantage over her political enemies? Imo, it could push Tyrion to get enraged and kill her. I do believe that  the reality of Jaime's death would crush Cersei, too, and wake her up from the fugue state she's been in, imo, since Tommen's suicide. Tragedy at its finest.

(Anyone had yet to cross the "valonqar theory discussion" on their off season bingo card? You're welcome! )

Edited July 30, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Colorful Mess]

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Nothing whatsoever hinted at that in Season 7.  Not to mention, Lyanna was barely in Season 7.

"You have many enemies in the North. Thousands fell fighting your father. All it takes is one angry man with a crossbow" - Jorah, S07E07

They're not going to come out and say "Hey, all it takes is a girl named Lyanna!" that's not how twists work. But it is how foreshadowing works. So I'm adding it to speculation. Either way, I think Lyanna is a goner at Dany's hands in some form, and I think it will be added on during a time when news about the Tarlys arrives, further complicating her reputation. And some of that is probably unjustified, because Dany isn't "evil."

As for whether "Dany would never..." She doesn't have a problem with rape when it comes to politics - slaves raped and killed a mother during the sack, and she let the crime go unpunished. Her solution to the Dothraki raping the lamb men was for the Dothraki rapers to marry the lamb women - great, so now she's advocating for marital rape. Pressing for to claim the North through Sansa/Tyrion also puts her in Tywin's position - which she has to take on if she wants to win the throne.

She either acts honorably and loses - or she acts dishonorably and wins. That's the choice every character is presented with, and the entire theme of the show. If she gets to both win and act honorably, she's a Mary Sue. It's quite clear.

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

the North is no longer Sansa's to claim, since Jon is KITN and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell. Even if Sansa were still the heir to the North (which she isn't), Tyrion would be the one to claim the North through her, not Dany. (Dany would have to marry Sansa herself, and one Stark is quite enough for her, I think.)

Jon isn't King? He knelt, remember?

Tyrion is her Hand and her strongest ally - this is how she collects Westeros if she doesn't want to conquer it - through marriages from "her people". She has very few marriages to do that with, because Jon and Tyrion are her only allies she has left. R+L=J makes marrying Jon a waste of a game play. It would be like Robb marrying Talisa or Jeyne at that point. He gives her nothing politically.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Colorful Mess]

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but in this analogy, the "castle" would be the ending itself, not the stuff leading up to that ending (i.e. the battles). Therefore, by that token, wouldn't a show-only NK/Dany battle on dragonback simply be one of the "different roads"?

I suppose - I mean it's not impossible. But GRRM has called Dany and the Others, fire and ice, the "two threats" facing Westeros that everyone is ignoring. But "fire" saves everyone, instead? How does that work? Also... is the NK really that interesting? I think he's boring. It's much more fun to speculate about Dance 2.0 (since that's been confirmed as happening, in some form) but it being humans vs. humans.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

I suppose - I mean it's not impossible. But GRRM has called Dany and the Others, fire and ice, the "two threats" facing Westeros that everyone is ignoring. But "fire" saves everyone, instead? How does that work? Also... is the NK really that interesting? I think he's boring. It's much more fun to speculate about Dance 2.0 as a human vs. human war, since that's been confirmed as a go.

Fire and ice, as GRRM said, have multiple different meanings in the story (Jon and Dany are also ice and fire, and Jon's own heritage is ice and fire, among others). 

Dany is a threat in the sense that she's a threat to the established order represented to the other characters, not that she herself is a villain.

[Colorful Mess]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Fire and ice, as GRRM said, have multiple different meanings in the story (Jon and Dany are also ice and fire, and Jon's own heritage is ice and fire, among others). 

Dany is a threat in the sense that she's a threat to the established order represented to the other characters, not that she herself is a villain.

It's very confusing. "Jon and Dany can be ice and fire," but Jon is ice and fire by himself, and Dany is fire, but Jon is also ice?? I think that's just a confusing mess, cooked up by Melisandre, who has no idea what she's talking about.

I'd rather believe this interview:

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Interviewer: For people who are not familiar with your work, the series takes place in an imaginary world. There is a struggle for control of the kingdom. This dynastic war is essentially one of three main plot lines. There are the other plot lines involving these sort of superhuman characters, and then there’s the exiled Targaryen daughter who seeks the return of her ancient throne. Why those three main plot lines?

GRRM: Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle, in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100 Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms. - Al Jazeera, 2014

I didn't call Dany a villain. Was Robert a villain? Stannis? She's just another claimant who is a threat. Moreover, she's a hero in Essos, and my guess is she'll end up an antagonist in Westeros. I just don't think "fire" will win.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

"You have many enemies in the North. Thousands fell fighting your father. All it takes is one angry man with a crossbow" - Jorah, S07E07They're not going to come out and say "Hey, all it takes is a girl named Lyanna!" that's not how twists work. But it is how foreshadowing works. So I'm adding it to speculation. Either way, I think Lyanna is a goner at Dany's hands in some form

This quote does nothing to hint at Lyanna attempting to assassinate Dany, and nor does anything else in the show. Frankly, from what we've seen of Lyanna, she would likely consider an assassination attempt to be nothing but the basest cowardice.

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As for whether "Dany would never..." She doesn't have a problem with rape when it comes to politics 

Dany murdered all the khals because their fondness for violence against women convinced her that they were irredeemable, so yes, she has a big problem with rape when it comes to politics and everything else.

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Her solution to the Dothraki raping the lamb men was for the Dothraki rapers to marry the lamb women - great, so now she's advocating for marital rape.

She only makes that suggestion to appease the pro-rape Drogo after he shows his disapproval at her intervening to stop the Dothraki from raping women as she had been doing:

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Dany told him what she had done, in his own tongue so the khal would understand her better, her words simple and direct.

When she was done, Drogo was frowning. "This is the way of war. These women are our slaves now, to do with as we please."

"It pleases me to hold them safe," Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. "If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons."

That's hardly "advocating for marital rape." That's Dany trying to sell Drogo on the benefits of helping the women who had been enslaved by the Dothraki without angering him by "daring too much." She was thinking that even if Drogo wouldn't stop the Dothraki from raping the women, maybe he could be sold on getting the Dothraki to treat the women more gently and elevating their status within the khalasar. I don't think I need to tell you that that's a sight removed from Dany trying to get Tyrion to rape Sansa for her own gain.

In the books, Dany is also haunted by the memory of Eroeh, a girl she saved from Drogo's Dothraki warriors only to be eventually raped and murdered by the members of another khalasar.

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Jon isn't King? He knelt, remember?

Wait, so Dany needs Tyrion to rape Sansa to claim the North...something Jon already ceded willingly to her? 

Also, there's been no indication that Dany even knows that Tyrion and Sansa were married, and you'd think if an important arc in Season 8 turned on that plot point that Tyrion would have mentioned it at some point during his multiple scenes with Dany to date. It of course hasn't come up, and I'm guessing that the reason is that the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is completely irrelevant to Tyrion and Dany's relationship.

Frankly, you seem to be twisting yourself into knots trying to come up with a plausible reason for Jon to turn on Dany. "Dany will burn Lyanna alive," "Dany would be cool with ordering up a rape" and "Dany will want to use Tyrion's marriage to Sansa (a marriage of which she is apparently ignorant) for political purposes" have no basis in anything in the show.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

42 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

It's very confusing. "Jon and Dany can be ice and fire," but Jon is ice and fire by himself, and Dany is fire, but Jon is also ice?? I think that's just a confusing mess, cooked up by Melisandre, who has no idea what she's talking about.

I'm not going by Melisandre.  GRRM has given many interviews over the years, and he's said that ice/fire has several meanings.  Which should be obvious, because both the Others and the Starks are associated with ice in the narrative.   So Jon's heritage is both ice and fire (Stark and Targaryen), but he's also ice versus Dany's fire, and the Others are the ice to Dany's fire.

[bubble sparkly]

I have to admit I'm a little baffled at the idea that GRRM is a massive misery-lover who is purposely going to give every main character a terrible ending just because he can, and that he is some master trope breaker / trope subverter.  IMO GRRM follows all the standard fantasy tropes to a tee.  Jon is the secret prince who grew up as a commoner, Dany is the exiled princess. Ned/Jeor are the father figures who have to die for the hero to "become a man" etc.

Honestly, there's not a great deal of difference between GOT and Harry Potter in the grand scheme of things.  Harry has things just as bad as Jon - orphan, physically and mentally abused by his remaining family, all his mentors die, both keep trying to stop a mass murderer from taking over the world etc.  Hell, Harry has some kind of weird semi-death thing when he has the battle with Voldemort at the end, so he and Jon have that in common too.

Bad things don't happen to Jon and the rest of the GOT characters because GRRM is some evil genius mastermind, they happen because bad things always happen to fantasy characters and GRRM is playing by the well-established rules.  Like, Ned was always going to die because Jon can't become a man with him alive.  Robb was always a goner too because he's competition for Jon, and the decks needed to be clear for Jon to become KITN and then KOT7K etc.  Cat was always going to suffer greatly because it's her karmic payback for being mean to the hero.

Even Dany, who is given much more of her own POV than most fantasy love interests, is created almost solely to be perfect partner for Jon.  She is the most beautiful woman in the world (because the hero might be able to date an ugly girl i.e. Ygritte but he certainly can't marry her), she has dragons that Jon needs in his fight against the NK, she had a shitty childhood and like Jon really just wants to have a happy loving family life with husband and kids, she thinks herself to be barren so Jon can swoop in with his super sperm and heroically impregnate her, and she has the same super special Targ blood as him so they can have magic Targ babies together and "keep the bloodline pure".  Even any "questionable" decisions she makes will just be a way for Jon to show her the error of her ways, and his hero status will always mean she comes round to seeing that he's right (e.g. Dany listens to Jon when he tells her not to burn KL, she lets him mine dragonglass, she agrees to go north to fight the NK and tells him she should have listened to him from the start).

There's certainly no guarantee that Jon and Dany will survive s8, because heroes and their love interest can die tragic, heroic deaths.  However, I think it's pretty clear that Jon and Dany are your standard fantasy couple who will only be separated by death, and their aunt/nephew relationship reveal will barely be a blip on the radar.  And even if one or both of them dies, their kid is 100% surviving because there is no way Targ restoration is not happening.

[Colorful Mess]

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This quote does nothing to hint at Lyanna attempting to assassinate Dany, and nor does anything else in the show. Frankly, from what we've seen of Lyanna, she would likely consider an assassination attempt to be nothing but the basest cowardice.

Why write her in at all? Where is this going? Is it just for local color? Why have a lord who will kneel to no one except a Stark or a son of Ned? And the person saying this ^ is Lyanna's cousin. Jorah is saying is the North is dangerous for her, and she has very few friends there. If it's not Lyanna, I can still see a very singularly-minded person trying to take her out. Assassination attempts are part of the Game of Thrones.

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That's hardly "advocating for marital rape." That's Dany trying to sell Drogo on the benefits of helping the women who had been enslaved by the Dothraki without angering him by "daring too much." She was thinking that even if Drogo wouldn't stop the Dothraki from raping the women, maybe he could be sold on getting the Dothraki to treat the women more gently and elevating their status within the khalasar. I don't think I need to tell you that that's a sight removed from Dany trying to get Tyrion to rape Sansa for her own gain.

Dany misses the forest for the trees - she attempts to "save" them but in effect she does no such thing. That was what Mirri's lesson what about. Somehow I get the sense that Dany's "saving women" from rape days are over, because she brought 40k of those guys to Westeros. 

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Dany murdered all the khals because their fondness for violence against women convinced her that they were irredeemable, so yes, she has a big problem with rape when it comes to politics and everything else.

Is Dany a feminist hero? It's questionable to me, because somehow she always manages to benefit from whatever liberation act she engages in. She liberates the slaves and they become part of her army. She liberates the Dothraki from the evil sexist khals and they become part of her army. Seems like she's not really fighting the patriarchy, she's just inverting it. So yeah, I can see her attempting to press for Sansa/Tyrion consummation, because she doesn't really fight for "all women, everywhere!" in reality - she fights for herself at the top. 

42 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Wait, so Dany needs Tyrion to rape Sansa to claim the North...something Jon already ceded willingly to her? 

Also, there's been no indication that Dany even knows that Tyrion and Sansa were married, and you'd think if an important arc in Season 8 turned on that plot point that Tyrion would have mentioned it at some point during his multiple scenes with Dany to date. It of course hasn't come up, and I'm guessing that the reason is that the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is completely irrelevant to Tyrion and Dany's relationship.

She doesn't have the North. "The North" = the Lords, and she has to win them over. She doesn't have territory just because Jon gave it too her. He knows it would appease her, which is why he said it, but he also knows his people will never kneel. It's what Varys' "power resides" quote is about.  

Pressing for the claim through Tyrion would be a desperate move, but I'm speculating on a scenario where she has no other options to claim the North because they won't kneel. How does she get it, if she can't win it by flattery or heroics? What happens then?

If you think they'll all just be taken out by zombies, I guess this point is moot.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

1) Tyrion already strangled a woman of importance in his life, one he loved and hated; whereas Jaime stressed at least twice on the show that there are things he can't do with only one hand. Could it be D&D hinting to book readers that Jaime won't be the Valonqar?

Except;  Jaime also said " I don't need two hands to strangle you " forgot who he said it to.

[Colorful Mess]

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm not going by Melisandre.  GRRM has given many interviews over the years, and he's said that ice/fire has several meanings.  Which should be obvious, because both the Others and the Starks are associated with ice in the narrative.   So Jon's heritage is both ice and fire (Stark and Targaryen), but he's also ice versus Dany's fire, and the Others are the ice to Dany's fire.

Jon is Dany's Other? What?

What does Jon, the ice to Dany's fire even mean, from a thematic standpoint?

Ice for the Starks is associated with defense (the sword, the Wall) or treachery.

If Jon is "ice" then he would be using treachery to defend the realm against Dany's "fire" - do you really want to insist on this parallel?

The Starks are also closely associated with the earth/trees/forests, and Bran relies more on earth magic - so the Starks as "ice" isn't the best fit either.

The reason I'm coming back to this is that in the bigger picture of things, fire isn't going to save the world. It's a threat, just like ice. These are the two threats facing Westeros, and the key to how it will shake down in the end.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I suspect something is going down with Lyanna Mormont. Does she try to assassinate her on the kingsroad (hinted at in S7)? Would Dany retaliate by burning her? 

Where is this coming from? 

Just from the show Lyanna is pretty forward, but there is no indication she has skills to even attempt that.

It's coming down to the North ( if Bran tells everyone ) possibly going against Jon; and Sansa, Sam and maybe Tyrion having to get everyone refocused.

Worst thing any Northerner could do is put a hit on someone with 6-7000 men behind her not to mention dragons, and Lyanna Mormont would disgrace her house worst then Jorah had. 

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Why write her in at all? Where is this going? Is it just for local color? Why have a lord who will kneel to no one except a Stark or a son of Ned?

It's a gigantic leap--not even a leap, really, more of a transatlantic flight--to go from "Lyanna has said that Bear Island knows no king but the KITN whose name is Stark" to "Lyanna will send an assassin to murder Dany and Dany will burn Lyanna in retaliation."

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Dany misses the forest for the trees - she attempts to "save" them but in effect she does no such thing. That was what Mirri's lesson what about. Somehow I get the sense that Dany's "saving women" from rape days are over, because she brought 40k of those guys to Westeros. 

It was made very clear that Dany took over the Dothraki because she realized that if she wanted the Dothraki to stop abusing women, she would have to lead them herself. It's implied that she got the idea to murder all the khals when she tells the young widow that it would have been better if the horrible khal who abused her had died sooner. We also see this when Dany gives a version of Drogo's motivational speech in Season 6 but leaves out the part about raping women.

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She liberates the Dothraki from the evil sexist khals and they become part of her army

 

They do become part of her army, but it's made very clear by the writers that her honest aim was to liberate the Dothraki women from the abusive khals. If she were as selfish as you think, she would have saved herself and left the Dothraki women to their own devices when Jorah and Daario showed up to save her, or she would have left the Dothraki underlings to their own rapey devices to ensure her popularity. She refused to do so, however.

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She doesn't have the North. "The North" = the Lords, and she has to win them over. 

 

And she'll win the Northern lords over by having a Lannister rape a Northern lady?

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

"keep the bloodline pure". 

Hmmm....I'd rather GRRM not end the series with a message that looks eerily similar to Hilter and other assorted Aryan white power groups.

[Colorful Mess]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It's a gigantic leap--not even a leap, really, more of a transatlantic flight--to go from "Lyanna has said that Bear Island knows no king but the KITN whose name is Stark" to "Lyanna will send an assassin to murder Dany and Dany will burn Lyanna in retaliation."

It was made very clear that Dany took over the Dothraki because she realized that if she wanted the Dothraki to stop abusing women, she would have to lead them herself. It's implied that she got the idea to murder all the khals when she tells the young widow that it would have been better if the horrible khal who abused her had died sooner. We also see this when Dany gives a version of Drogo's motivational speech in Season 6 but leaves out the part about raping women.

They do become part of her army, but it's made very clear by the writers that her honest aim was to liberate the Dothraki women from the abusive khals. If she were as selfish as you think, she would have saved herself and left the Dothraki women to their own devices when Jorah and Daario showed up to save her, or she would have left the Dothraki underlings to their own rapey devices to ensure her popularity. She refused to do so, however.

And she'll win the Northern lords over by having a Lannister rape a Northern lady?

This is part of the game of thrones. Kings do this all the time - they force their sisters into marriages to secure their territory. They force people in their service into marriages with other women to gain allies. If she's too soft for it, she shouldn't be campaigning to be queen. Do folks really think she wouldn't make these kinds of deals? The political stuff isn't just going to be handed to her on a silver platter.

By the point where she would press for a marriage, she would be ruling by fear. Like the Boltons and Lannisters kept the Lords in line, they would be afraid of her. But she would also need an official claim to the castle through Winterfell. This is the only way she gets the territory (claim through Tyrion/Sansa + force of arms) if she doesn't want to burn the whole thing down - which I'm guessing she does anyway, because I think that's her work in the leaked photo.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[SimoneS]

10 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Hmmm....I'd rather GRRM not end the series with a message that looks eerily similar to Hilter and other assorted Aryan white power groups.

Seriously? Even for you this is outside of the bounds of this discussion. Do you really absolutely no familiarity with the practice of incest among royal families? Siblings and close blood relatives intermarrying has been practiced by royal families in many cultures for generations; the Egyptians, Hawaiians, the Incas in Peru, some African societies are just a few examples. It has nothing to do with Hitler or white supremacists. 

Frankly, the Game of Thrones is not the story for you.

Edited July 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Colorful Mess]

18 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Seriously? Even for you this is outside of the bounds of this discussion. Do you really absolutely no familiarity with the practice of incest among royal families? Siblings and close blood relatives intermarrying has been practiced by royal families in many cultures for generations; the Egyptians, Hawaiians, the Incas in Peru, some African societies are just a few examples. It has nothing to do with Hitler or white supremacists. 

Frankly, the Game of Thrones is not the story for you.

I'm not knocking all incest, everywhere, in the history of the world. I'm judging Targaryen blood purity, which is the idea that the blood must be as pure as possible to ensure the supremacy of House Targayren so only they can ride dragons in order to rule over others. I don't care if it's a cultural practice, in GRRM's world, Targayren exceptionalism and separation from people beneath them looks similar Hitler's belief in the supremacy of the Aryan race. They specifically intermarried with each other based on the belief that no one else was good enough for them. It's a terrible message to end the series on.

[bubble sparkly]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It was made very clear that Dany took over the Dothraki because she realized that if she wanted the Dothraki to stop abusing women, she would have to lead them herself. It's implied that she got the idea to murder all the khals when she tells the young widow that it would have been better if the horrible khal who abused her had died sooner. We also see this when Dany gives a version of Drogo's motivational speech in Season 6 but leaves out the part about raping women.

Agreed.  Dany also told Theon and Yara that the ironborn had to stop raping, if memory serves me.  So given that condition and Dany's well documented abhorrence of rape, I think it's likely the dothraki were given a similar talk about rape not being acceptable.

25 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

This is part of the game of thrones. Kings do this all the time - they force their sisters into marriages to secure their territory. They force people in their service into marriages with other women to gain allies. If she's too soft for it, she shouldn't be campaigning to be queen. Do folks really think she wouldn't make these kinds of deals? The political stuff isn't just going to be handed to her on a silver platter.

So based on this logic, Jon should force Sansa and Arya into marriage with important lords to secure Northern allies or else he is too soft to be king?

31 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

By the point where she would press for a marriage, she would be ruling by fear. Like the Boltons and Lannisters kept the Lords in line, they would be afraid of her. But she would also need an official claim to the castle through Winterfell. This is the only way she gets the territory (claim through Tyrion/Sansa + force of arms) if she doesn't want to burn the whole thing down - which I'm guessing she does anyway, because I think that's her work in the leaked photo.

I can see Dany burning Winterfell, but only because its overrun with wights and Jon gives her instructions to do so.  A situation where Dany forces Tyrion/Sansa to marry to give herself non-existent political capital, then decides to burn the whole place down anyway because..reasons, seems incredibly unlikely and not at all consistent with the filming reports we have. 

[Colorful Mess]

38 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Agreed.  Dany also told Theon and Yara that the ironborn had to stop raping, if memory serves me.  So given that condition and Dany's well documented abhorrence of rape, I think it's likely the dothraki were given a similar talk about rape not being acceptable.

So based on this logic, Jon should force Sansa and Arya into marriage with important lords to secure Northern allies or else he is too soft to be king?

I can see Dany burning Winterfell, but only because its overrun with wights and Jon gives her instructions to do so.  A situation where Dany forces Tyrion/Sansa to marry to give herself non-existent political capital, then decides to burn the whole place down anyway because..reasons, seems incredibly unlikely and not at all consistent with the filming reports we have. 

I dont think Dany will be allowed to escape the possibility that she has rape on her hands - because the Dothraki aren't her wights. She can't control all 40k of them. And wasn't there leaks about rape scenes up North at some point? I can't remember. 

Anyway, my point is - just like a lot of people in real life, Dany holds contradictory beliefs! She can issue commands not to rape while at the same time working to secure the North through marriages. She has applied her own philosophies inconsistently. In the books she abhors the violence of the fighting pits, but she doesn't process that Drogon killed far more people than those who died in 1-1 combat. She can say she's breaking the wheel of the Houses vying for the throne while also vying for the throne herself. I could go on...

I think I'm stating to see a theme here - ya'll think the game board will look different for her in S8.

Sure, she can kick the game board over (*cough* fAegon) but that's a metaphor for burning everything down.

As for Jon, yeah, I think he'd recognize that he has to make those kinds of hard, cold deals - I mean he did force a mother to abandon her child in the books and care for someone else's. This was his best friend's love interest too. But I'd also like to think he would be smart enough to avoid a situation where he's so desperate for allies, he would need to sell his sisters off in the first place. Jon's spy mission with the wildlings, his tenure as LC, and his short time as KitN suggests that he rules through pragmatism, mercy, forgiveness, and a clear line that you shouldn't cross him. But he doesn't rule solely by fear, which is all Dany has for her right now, since her only ally brings her no political support because he gave up the North in the most offensive way possible. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

On 7/28/2018 at 8:24 PM, Leila6 said:

I disagree with your interpretation of Emilia’s comment. She was talking about filming Daenerys’s last scene, and whatever her last scene is, it won’t be burning down Winterfell, just by logic of chronology. More to the point, though, you’re interpreting this as Emilia being upset by whatever Dany’s last scene is. Whereas I think she’s saying it messed with her head, as an actress, to have to do the last scene for this character that she’s been playing for nearly a decade. She felt pressure, again as an actress, knowing that would be Dany’s “lasting flavor” for the audience, and she didn’t want to mess it up.

Actually the implication of that line seems from an audience's perspective from an in-story action not her own acting.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Seriously? Even for you this is outside of the bounds of this discussion. Do you really absolutely no familiarity with the practice of incest among royal families? Siblings and close blood relatives intermarrying has been practiced by royal families in many cultures for generations; the Egyptians, Hawaiians, the Incas in Peru, some African societies are just a few examples. It has nothing to do with Hitler or white supremacists. 

Frankly, the Game of Thrones is not the story for you.

There are definitely unfortunate implications about keeping the bloodline pure and it being shown to be fine because magic.

[WearyTraveler]

Prediction for season 8: After the final episode, I will come back to this thread, read it and laugh! ;-P 

[bubble sparkly]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I dont think Dany will be allowed to escape the possibility that she has rape on her hands - because the Dothraki aren't her wights. She can't control all 40k of them.

So if someone breaks Dany's anti-rape rule she has rape on her hands and must be punished for the actions of someone she can't control?  That seems pretty harsh, but if that's how things work then Dany can't be the only one held accountable.  Given rape and murder seem to occur pretty often in Westeros (including in the North), I would imagine Jon and Sansa etc. would also need to be in line to be punished for the actions of all Northerners.  If Lyanna Mormont does try to assassinate Dany as you are predicting, what punishment will the Starks receive for having attempted murder on their hands?

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

As for Jon, yeah, I think he'd recognize that he has to make those kinds of hard, cold deals - I mean he did force a mother to abandon her child in the books and care for someone else's. This was his best friend's love interest too. But I'd also like to think he would be smart enough to avoid a situation where he's so desperate for allies, he would need to sell his sisters off in the first place. Jon's spy mission with the wildlings, his tenure as LC, and his short time as KitN suggests that he rules through pragmatism, mercy, forgiveness, and a clear line that you shouldn't cross him. But he doesn't rule solely by fear, which is all Dany has for her right now, since her only ally brings her no political support because he gave up the North in the most offensive way possible. 

So If Jon forces Sansa into an arranged marriage to benefit his political position, he's being shrewd and pragmatic, yet if Dany does the same thing it's an example of her ruling by fear and will end with her burning down Winterfell in a fit of rage?

I am honestly quite curious now, you have stated your predictions about Dany burning Winterfell and having a dance with dragons with Jon, but what is your prediction for the ending? 

• Who wins the dance, and does the loser die?
• If you think Jon lives, do you imagine he will stay in the North or end up King of 7K? And who will he end up marrying?
• Do you think Dany will be pregnant with Jon's baby given the anvils in s7?  If so, what happens to the baby?
• What do you think Sansa and Arya's endgames are?

[nikma]

I would love a war between Dany and Jon to be the ultimate conflict but there is no way that's happening.

[SeanC]

10 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Why write her in at all? Where is this going? Is it just for local color?

Yes?

Indeed, the writers have specifically talked about the show’s version of Lyanna Mormont (who, again, is considerably different from the book) as somebody they introduced because they thought she’d be a fun contrast with all the old white dude lords we’d been seeing; and her role was originally only one scene, expanded subsequent because Bella Ramsey was an immediate hit on set.

Moreover, even in your reality where Lyanna tried to assassinate Dany, that makes her a regicide and liable for execution by Jon’s own pronouncement.

Edited July 30, 2018 by SeanC