Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Edith · March 1, 2018

52 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, although I wonder how good Javi's sources could be for S8, given that there's been no Spain filming to date. Most of Javi's good dirt for previous seasons came from Spain filming.

Javi knew that Stannis would burn Shireen and his death before season 5 aired. He admitted knowing about it for almost a year.

He knew about Arya storyline in season 6. Rickon, Ramsay and Roose deaths. Jon/Sansa taking back Winterfell.

Neither of those things I mentioned happened in Spain.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Edith

anamika · March 1, 2018

On 2/24/2018 at 7:46 PM, Eyes High said:

It's not just the line about the sham marriage--since in context it makes sense that Tyrion wants to reassure Jon that he didn't rape his sister--it's Tyrion praising Sansa's intelligence. Sansa praising Tyrion's kindness is nothing new, since she did that in S4 and S5, which again could point to something down the road (or not, we'll see). However, the emphasis on Tyrion/Sansa and relative inattention to SanSan (while playing up the Hound's platonic bond with Arya) is something that's been pretty consistent on the show, not something that's new in S7. Now, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the endgame, and D&D could suddenly change course in S8 as they always have, but the fact remains.

Tyrion praising Sansa's intelligence is typical David and Dan. They are not good enough writers to show Sansa doing intelligent things without taking away from Jon, Arya or LF and so they are stuck with characters telling us that she is intelligent instead of showing us.

If we are predicting relationships based on David and Dan's writing, are we to then assume that Jon's most significant sibling relationship next season is going to be with Sansa and not Arya?

What was the point of the Jon-LF scene in the crypts? LF mentions Sansa, Jon gets angry and throttles him. Then Jon and Tyrion meet and they discuss Sansa. Then Jon and Theon meet and they discuss Sansa.

Jon and Gendry meet. No discussion about Arya. Jon meets the Hound, Beric and Thoros. No discussion about Arya.

So it's not that they can't write Jon talking about or discussing a sibling. They can, but it's Sansa as opposed to Arya.

So, if this continues into next season and if we are to see character interactions and relationships based on what David and Dan have written previously, then Jon should just wave to Arya across the room and have a grand 2nd reunion with Sansa. Hmm. Maybe the Jonsa shippers are onto something...

On 2/24/2018 at 7:46 PM, Eyes High said:

I was struck on rewatch just how shippy the treatment of Tyrion/Sansa is in the show. In S2, which you would expect to have big SanSan content given that it was based on ACOK, the writers seemed to "match" SanSan moments with Tyrion/Sansa scenes: Tyrion interrupts Sandor harassing Sansa in the deleted 2x03 scene, Tyrion panics during the riot when he realizes that Sansa is missing (while Sandor is saving Sansa), etc. Even in the 2x04 scene where Sansa is being beaten, the emphasis is on Tyrion and Sansa's interactions, with Sandor being an afterthought in the scene. Not only that, but the GRRM-written episodes have some of the shippiest Tyrion/Sansa stuff in the show: Tyrion/Sansa banter in 2x09, the romcommy back to back scenes in 3x07 where Sansa and Tyrion discuss the marriage with Margaery and Bronn (respectively), and of course 4x02 where Tyrion holds Sansa's hand and Sansa hands Tyrion the goblet so that he doesn't have to crawl.

My speculations are based on the show having the same endings as the books. If they are not doing the book endings, then I could see Sansa and Tyrion together. Show Sansa does not seem to be repulsed by Tyrion, Peter Dinklage is hot and Tyrion is a clever, kind, compassionate man who has become a non-violent pacifist. But again, if the show is doing it's own endings then I don't see Sansa married to anyone - she will end up in charge of Winterfell with bodyguard/executioner Arya.

In the books, Sansa is repulsed by the ugly, deformed dwarf without a nose. She appreciates Tyrion's help and kindness towards her, but that's about it. Tyrion also does not think too kindly of Sansa, seeing as how he feels that she abandoned him to his fate and fled. I don't think book Sansa would be happy married to him. Assuming she is alive and free to make her own choices at the end of the books, I don't see her willingly remain married to him.

As for GRRM writing the shippy stuff. If I recall correctly, the only Tyrion-Sansa scene in Blackwater is Sansa telling Tyrion that she is going to pray for his safe return. Just like she would pray for Joffrey's. Shippy? I hardly think so. Shae and Tyrion had shippy scenes. Blackwater also had all the important Sansa-Sandor scenes.

Eyes High · March 1, 2018

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Tyrion praising Sansa's intelligence is typical David and Dan. They are not good enough writers to show Sansa doing intelligent things without taking away from Jon, Arya or LF and so they are stuck with characters telling us that she is intelligent instead of showing us.

Sure, but any number of characters could have praised Sansa's intelligence. That they put those words into Tyrion's mouth is potentially significant.

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If we are predicting relationships based on David and Dan's writing, are we to then assume that Jon's most significant sibling relationship next season is going to be with Sansa and not Arya?

Well, we can safely assume based on the show that there will be some resolution to Brienne/Jaime, since D&D have carefully cultivated and played up that relationship (as opposed to SanSan, which they've pretty much forgotten about). So the show writing does help us make educated guesses about where the writers may be going with these relationships.

And the show did remind us in S7, via Sansa, that Jon loves Arya much more than he loves Sansa. So there's that.

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What was the point of the Jon-LF scene in the crypts? LF mentions Sansa, Jon gets angry and throttles him.

Deliberate Ned/Jon parallel, as indicated by the script outline. I suppose the writers don't trust us to make that connection without having Jon reenact Ned throttling Littlefinger, but there you have it.

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In the books, Sansa is repulsed by the ugly, deformed dwarf without a nose. She appreciates Tyrion's help and kindness towards her, but that's about it. Tyrion also does not think too kindly of Sansa, seeing as how he feels that she abandoned him to his fate and fled. I don't think book Sansa would be happy married to him. Assuming she is alive and free to make her own choices at the end of the books, I don't see her willingly remain married to him.

As I said, the books left just enough wiggle room on both Tyrion and Sansa's sides that them ending up together would not be the most shocking thing ever to me. Also, in the original timeline, it seems that Tyrion and Sansa were going to be married for the full span of the five year time jump (assuming that Sansa's TWOW Alayne chapter was intended to be the first chapter post-timeskip).

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As for GRRM writing the shippy stuff. If I recall correctly, the only Tyrion-Sansa scene in Blackwater is Sansa telling Tyrion that she is going to pray for his safe return. Just like she would pray for Joffrey's. Shippy? I hardly think so.

Sassy banter--even "I wish you were dead'--can be plenty shippy given the context. In this context, it shows a certain amount of trust, since Sansa knows that he's smart enough to grasp her real meaning and trusting enough that he won't take real offence at her dig. Given that Sansa is usually extremely guarded with Lannisters to the point that she's terrified of saying anything negative against them, yeah, it's shippy, in my opinion.

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Blackwater also had all the important Sansa-Sandor scenes.

Except that it omitted the foundation of the SanSan ship, the "unkiss" moment (or something that could reasonably substitute for it), and Sansa has yet to mention Sandor, either obliquely or otherwise, in the intervening 47 episodes.

OhOkayWhat · March 1, 2018

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon and Gendry meet. No discussion about Arya. Jon meets the Hound, Beric and Thoros. No discussion about Arya.

Good points, but you forgot a fundamental difference.

The average viewer will assume the existence of the family bond by default, except if we are tell otherwise. The average viewer will not assume the existence (except if it's established from the beginning as Ned-Cat or Ned-Robert) of any friendship/romance bond.

The narrative needs to built on screen the friendship/romance

Therefore we cannot compare jon-arya or jon-sansa (family) with brienne/jaime or Sansan (friendship/romance) screentime.

The average viewer see Jon as a Stark even with his bastard status. I doubt there was any surprise at how heartwarming was the hug between Jon and Sansa (6x04) because the viewer see them as family. The surprise was that 2 Starks finally reunited.

In other words, the general audience "knows" that Jon loves his sisters because they assume the familiar bond by default. The general audience doesn't "know" about any romance/friendship that the show never/barely shows on screen because there is nothing there by default in the mind of any average viewer.

WindyNights · March 1, 2018

On 2/27/2018 at 10:01 PM, anamika said:

There is some speculation that it is Euron as king on the IT with Cersei as his queen. We do have Aeron's forced visions where he sees Euron on the Iron Throne and then there is this:

Now, this woman can be Cersei or Dany. Wildfire is described as green, so not sure what the pale white fire is supposed to be.

It's possible that Euron sits on the IT at some point in the books. GRRM has said that there will several contenders sitting on the throne before the series ends. It's possible the show could try to shoehorn Euron on the throne. Though, if the final human nemesis for the good guys is going to be Euron, that's disappointing.

Nice. I like that the Targ sigil is in the middle. Targaryen restoration hype!

I would honestly say the fact it's bronze is a bad sign. Targaryens finish last.

Jk jk

SeanC · March 2, 2018

Another of the interviews Sophie did in New York recently. Nothing terribly strange or startling (it's mostly about things other than the show), but apparently she'll have a new costume for whatever filming she has yet to do:

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“There are moments it doesn’t seem final,” Turner admits, talking about the eighth and final season. “I had my final costume fitting the other day, and I was like, ‘Bye, guys.’ And they were like, ‘Wait! We might never see you again!’ After ten years, for someone to be like, ‘Hey, we probably won’t see you again,’ it’s really bizarre.”

...

“I think right now, we have a few months, so a lot of us are getting up in the fact that it’s another day, another day, another day,” she says. “Then people are like, ‘Bye!’ and you kind of get stunted, like, ‘Oh my God, she’s gone!’ And then another day, another day, another day… I think once it starts really wrapping up towards the summer, that’s when it’s going to start getting emotional.”

I will hold out a vague hope that I'll like her Season 8 costuming more than the Season 7 one (which was such a step down from the Season 6 costume, her best ever regular outfit).

Edited March 2, 2018 by SeanC

Eyes High · March 2, 2018

Interesting tidbit re: Cersei:

Rebecca Van Cleave, Lena's body double for nude scenes, has been filming GOT Season 8 this week.

Euron/Cersei sex scene? Walk of Shame redux?

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Another of the interviews Sophie did in New York recently. Nothing terribly strange or startling (it's mostly about things other than the show), but apparently she'll have a new costume for whatever filming she has yet to do:

I will hold out a vague hope that I'll like her Season 8 costuming more than the Season 7 one (which was such a step down from the Season 6 costume, her best ever regular outfit).

All of Sansa's costumes have been hideous, even the S6 bib dress. #hottake

I was looking at photos of the costumes from the Chinese drama The Empress of China, and they're all so beautiful. The patterns, the embroidery, the colours, the fabrics! Just stunning. The GOT dresses, especially Sansa's, look so cheap and ugly in comparison.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Eyes High

Advance35 · March 2, 2018

Meh. I think Northern/Winter attire as a whole is especially uninspired. The only clothes I've liked was Dany's white winter coat (Didn't love the back but I adored it from the front), Sansa's season 5 wedding dress and her Mockingbird Dress.

In terms of what ST said, I'm surprised she'll have more than one costume, considering everything that will be happening. And the interview gives the impression she'll have more filming to do. It'll be interesting to see if we find out where.

Edith · March 2, 2018

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Another of the interviews Sophie did in New York recently. Nothing terribly strange or startling (it's mostly about things other than the show), but apparently she'll have a new costume for whatever filming she has yet to do:

I will hold out a vague hope that I'll like her Season 8 costuming more than the Season 7 one (which was such a step down from the Season 6 costume, her best ever regular outfit).

I thought costuming fitting happens before filming starts. Color me surprise! So I guess Sansa have a new dress mid season? Or for the ending?...

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

In terms of what ST said, I'm surprised she'll have more than one costume, considering everything that will be happening. And the interview gives the impression she'll have more filming to do. It'll be interesting to see if we find out where.

Probably after March. I think this month they are going to start filming the battle/burning of KL in the new set. Who knows how long that one is going to be.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Interesting tidbit re: Cersei:

Rebecca Van Cleave, Lena's body double for nude scenes, has been filming GOT Season 8 this week.

Euron/Cersei sex scene? Walk of Shame redux?

Yeah, probably Euro/Cersei. With Jaime out of the picture and as Cersei last ally, the marriage needs to happen. She has no more excuses to postpone it.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Edith

Eyes High · March 2, 2018

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Meh. I think Northern/Winter attire as a whole is especially uninspired.

I like the skirts for the men's costumes because I think they look badass, but yeah. Don't even get me started on those padded, embroidered collars Catelyn and Sansa wear. Yes, Clapton's rationale is that the Northern women would use the embroidery to show their status rather than jewelry, but they're still ugly as fuck.

I guess my bigger problem with Clapton is that while she usually has very well thought out reasons for dressing the characters as she does, the results are often hideous. Sansa's costuming is probably the worst offender; it's just flat-out unappealing. I get why the Sansa fan Tumblr crowd so often photoshops Sophie's head onto photos of characters from other TV shows--like Elizabeth Woodville wearing a fur-lined grey dress on The White Queen--or on to other images of other dresses--like this one--just so that they see Sansa wearing something that's actually pretty for a change

To be fair to Clapton, though, Cersei's S3 and S4 gowns were pretty banging. Then Clapton got lazy again with Cersei's costuming and eventually went full Romulan in Season 7. (You never go full Romulan.) On the whole, the Lannisters have made out better wardrobe-wise than the other characters, although given D&D's love affair with the Lannisters, I guess it's not surprising that they would get the choicest, most appealing clothes as well on the show.

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The only clothes I've liked was Dany's white winter coat

Dany's winter coat was such a frustrating moment because it's a truly gorgeous, eyepopping piece. I remember that Twitter rightfully went nuts once Dany appeared wearing it. It shows that Clapton is capable of designing beautiful clothes that suit the character, but that she chooses not to most of the time. Ugh.

2 hours ago, Edith said:

I thought costuming fitting happens before filming starts. Color me surprise! So I guess Sansa have a new dress mid season? Or for the ending?...

If it's her last costume fitting, though, that's supposed to suffice for the remainder of filming, I guess that there won't be any 8x06 flashforwards (or, if there are, that Sansa won't be part of them).

Sophie will be filming Heavy in March according to Daniel Zovatto, so I'm surprised she's doing the fitting now and not later.

If I have one wish for Sansa in S8, whatever else happens to her, it's that she gets to wear a beautiful costume at least once before the end of the show. I'm not holding my breath, though.

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Yeah, probably Euro/Cersei. With Jaime out of the picture and as Cersei last ally, the marriage needs to happen. She has no more excuses to postpone it.

/Freefolk folks pointed out that Pilou's been in Denmark this week according to his Instagram, so the nudity may not involve Euron after all.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Eyes High

Edith · March 2, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

If it's her last costume fitting, though, that's supposed to suffice for the remainder of filming, I guess that there won't be any 8x06 flashforwards (or, if there are, that Sansa won't be part of them).

They don't film in order, for example, Jon/Theon scene from episode 7 season 7, was one of the first scenes Kit filmed. So Sophie, for all we know, could already has filmed some scenes for episodes 4,5 and 6.

The only thing we can say with this information, and is just speculation, is that I doubt Sansa is going to change clothes while a battle is going on, so whatever costume she starts the season with, should suffice for at least the end of the Winterfell battle.

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/Freefolk folks pointed out that Pilou's been in Denmark this week according to his Instagram, so the nudity may not involve Euron after all.

Oh well there goes a theory.

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"...Then people are like, ‘Bye!’ and you kind of get stunted, like, ‘Oh my God, she’s gone!"

Reaching, obviously, but you guys think she was talking about someone specific? Probably a new female character being introduced or a more known one? Alys, Lyanna, Missandei, Gilly or Brienne?

Edited March 2, 2018 by Edith

WindyNights · March 2, 2018

45 minutes ago, Edith said:

They don't film in order, for example, Jon/Theon scene from episode 7 season 7, was one of the first scenes Kit filmed. So Sophie, for all we know, could already has filmed some scenes for episodes 4,5 and 6.

The only thing we can say with this information, and is just speculation, is that I doubt Sansa is going to change clothes while a battle is going on, so whatever costume she starts the season with, should suffice for at least the end of the Winterfell battle.

Oh well there goes a theory.

Reaching, obviously, but you guys think she was talking about someone specific? Probably a new female character being introduced or a more known one? Alys, Lyanna, Missandei, Gilly or Brienne?

She was talking about the costume people. It was her last costume fitting so she'll never see them again.

screamin · March 2, 2018

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

She was talking about the costume people. It was her last costume fitting so she'll never see them again.

For all we know, they may have filmed the flash-forwards first, so we don't know if that last costume fitting were for flash-forwards for Sophie or not.

GrailKing · March 3, 2018

On 3/2/2018 at 8:18 AM, SeanC said:

I will hold out a vague hope that I'll like her Season 8 costuming more than the Season 7 one (which was such a step down from the Season 6 costume, her best ever regular outfit).

Outside of being Black, I liked her outfits, I hope for some color though for S 8.

WindyNights · March 3, 2018

On 2/23/2018 at 7:52 PM, screamin said:

IIRC, in the books the injury didn't seem acute. A man with an acute injury doesn't help in gravedigging - it's heavy work, something an acutely injured man wouldn't be fit for. The man who's probably the Hound limps, but is fit enough to do heavy work (the Elder Brother mentions that the man's been busy with nonstop gravedigging because of all the war's corpses washing up on the shores). A fit man who limps, in that medieval-ish setting, has done all the healing from an old injury he's going to do and is going to keep that limp for good.

And a man wearing the garb of a novice monk and doing such humble work nonstop is IMO a man who thinks he's found some peace in his position, and it would take a crisis to force him out of it. Sansa's disappearance didn't force him out of it - and no, he hasn't the least idea where Sansa is, but neither did Brienne, and she didn't let that stop her. Seems to me that one thing that WOULD force him out of it would be something that's obsessed him for far longer than he's ever been taken with Sansa - like finding out his loathed brother isn't dead after all. And I think that will be one point where the show and the books will come together - that the Hound's end will come in defeating his brother. The show's already hinted broadly at that with the Hound recognizing the Mountain.

That would be a complete regression of his character.

The point of him being on the Quiet Isle is that he's learned to live without his hate:

It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing hisbrother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear."

Now, Sandor could come out of the Quiet Isle but it should be something else other than hate driving him. That's another point behind why his helmet is being passed around.

It's a mantle of hate hence why the BwB now hold it and Lem uses it as the new Hound.

WindyNights · March 3, 2018

On 2/27/2018 at 6:50 AM, Eyes High said:

That's kind of a curious thing to say, since Tyrion and Sansa are still very much married in the books. GRRM already "hooked them up."

Grim for Sansa, sure, but consider this. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. Sansa isn't even his favourite or second-favourite female character. If GRRM's going to give Tyrion a happy ending at Sansa's expense, I don't think he'll lose any sleep over it.

I will say that while Sansa dying is her most likely endgame in my opinion, GRRM left just enough wiggle room in the books that Tyrion and Sansa ending up together wouldn't be the most shocking thing ever (although certainly more surprising than endgame SanSan would be).

I don't think you understand how favorite characters work. Someone bring your favorite character doesn't actually mean you'll give them nicer things. It could just lead to you making them more significant.

Tyrion may be GRRM's favorite character but he certainly likes to torture and humiliate Tyrion.

I would label GRRM a huge misogynist as would many others if GRRM decides to make Sansa a sort of trophy wife for Tyrion.

Anyways, I'm pretty certain they won't end up together seeing as Show Tyrion has already announced that he has no intention of continuing the marriage and Book Tyrion is a vile rapist.

And like, can you imagine if Tywin's scheme succeeded with the Lannisters ending up with Winterfell. It would actually validate Tywin by forcing that marriage and be a slap across the face to the Stark family.

Eyes High · March 3, 2018

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I don't think you understand how favorite characters work. Someone bring your favorite character doesn't actually mean you'll give them nicer things. It could just lead to you making them more significant.

Tyrion may be GRRM's favorite character but he certainly likes to torture and humiliate Tyrion.

I would label GRRM a huge misogynist as would many others if GRRM decides to make Sansa a sort of trophy wife for Tyrion.

Anyways, I'm pretty certain they won't end up together seeing as Show Tyrion has already announced that he has no intention of continuing the marriage and Book Tyrion is a vile rapist.

And like, can you imagine if Tywin's scheme succeeded with the Lannisters ending up with Winterfell. It would actually validate Tywin by forcing that marriage and be a slap across the face to the Stark family.

Your argument rests on several assumptions I think are questionable.

1. Tyrion isn't guaranteed a better outcome than other characters because GRRM has made him suffer pain and humiliation along the way. We already know that the outline promised that Tyrion would survive the books along with four other "safe" characters, which makes him better off than the rest of the characters whom GRRM apparently considers fair game to kill off (such as Sansa, who perished in the outline). Furthermore, all of the main characters have suffered considerable pain and humiliation, and many of them have suffered romantic betrayal, emotional abuse and bodily mutilation; GRRM certainly hasn't singled Tyrion out in that respect.

2. GRRM would never have Sansa end up with a rapist. I personally don't think GRRM takes that into consideration. He has spoken glowingly of Dany and Drogo's romance, which is a relationship between a rape victim and the man who raped her. GRRM also ships the fuck out of Brienne/Jaime notwithstanding that Jaime is also a rapist.

3. Sansa and Tyrion ending up together would be "really damn grim" for ASOIAF. Book Jeyne implies Ramsay makes her fuck his dogs, so no.

4. GRRM hasn't already made Sansa "a sort of trophy wife for Tyrion." GRRM went out of his way to contrive a way for Tyrion to marry Sansa (someone he could never otherwise hope to marry) and to ensure that he would remain married to her for some time at least, so if you're going to label GRRM a huge misogynist for that reason, it has already happened.

5. TV Tyrion announced he has no intention of continuing the marriage. No, he didn't.

6. The fact that Book Tyrion is a "vile rapist" has an impact on his endgame. Rapist or not, he's still GRRM's acknowledged fave and is guaranteed survival according to the outline, so no.

7. Sansa and Tyrion ending up together would validate Tywin's scheme, since it means the Lannisters would get Winterfell. Book Sansa's been disinherited, so she won't end up with Winterfell in the books. Therefore, she probably won't end up with Winterfell in the show, either.

I strongly doubt Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, even assuming Sansa survives, but your argument doesn't further that case. The strongest and best argument against Tyrion and Sansa ending up together is character-based: Book Sansa doesn't want to remain married to Tyrion, him being a hideous Lannister and all, and Book Tyrion is obsessed with Tysha and not Sansa. That's plain enough for most purposes. Getting into what GRRM supposedly wouldn't do for whatever reason, on the other hand, is a dangerous business, since GRRM saw fit to marry off Tyrion and Sansa in the first place, and it's still not clear why he did so.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Eyes High

Wouter · March 3, 2018

On 2-3-2018 at 6:08 PM, Eyes High said:

If it's her last costume fitting, though, that's supposed to suffice for the remainder of filming, I guess that there won't be any 8x06 flashforwards (or, if there are, that Sansa won't be part of them).

Sophie will be filming Heavy in March according to Daniel Zovatto, so I'm surprised she's doing the fitting now and not later.

If costume fitting is normally done before filming starts (all the clothes needed should generally be known by then), then this last fitting may be for a far later date of filming. One fitting could mean multiple new costumes, if required. And since things aren't filmed chronologically, it really doesn't tell us much other then that Sansa will have at least one change of clothes in the coming season.

Given that filming is so spread out for the final season, the extra costume fitting may have been required as the clothes department may not be able to complete all the clothes needed in time.

We can reasonably expect that Sansa will probably start out the season with the clothes she wore in S7 (no change of scenery or situation), so at least one new look apparently will appear later on.

Unrelated: a Sansa/Tyrion marriage, bookwise, could mean Sansa's children get Casterly Rock. Maybe Winterfell, too, depending on whether Bran declines the lordship (and if Rickon has a similar fate in the books as he did in the show). If so, it would rather be the opposite of what Tywin intended - his main consideration was to get Tyrion out of Casterly Rock.

WindyNights · March 4, 2018

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Your argument rests on several assumptions I think are questionable.

1. Tyrion isn't guaranteed a better outcome than other characters because GRRM has made him suffer pain and humiliation along the way. We already know that the outline promised that Tyrion would survive the books along with four other "safe" characters, which makes him better off than the rest of the characters whom GRRM apparently considers fair game to kill off (such as Sansa, who perished in the outline). Furthermore, all of the main characters have suffered considerable pain and humiliation, and many of them have suffered romantic betrayal, emotional abuse and bodily mutilation; GRRM certainly hasn't singled Tyrion out in that respect.

2. GRRM would never have Sansa end up with a rapist. I personally don't think GRRM takes that into consideration. He has spoken glowingly of Dany and Drogo's romance, which is a relationship between a rape victim and the man who raped her. GRRM also ships the fuck out of Brienne/Jaime notwithstanding that Jaime is also a rapist.

3. Sansa and Tyrion ending up together would be "really damn grim" for ASOIAF. Book Jeyne implies Ramsay makes her fuck his dogs, so no.

4. GRRM hasn't already made Sansa "a sort of trophy wife for Tyrion." GRRM went out of his way to contrive a way for Tyrion to marry Sansa (someone he could never otherwise hope to marry) and to ensure that he would remain married to her for some time at least, so if you're going to label GRRM a huge misogynist for that reason, it has already happened.

5. TV Tyrion announced he has no intention of continuing the marriage. No, he didn't.

6. The fact that Book Tyrion is a "vile rapist" has an impact on his endgame. Rapist or not, he's still GRRM's acknowledged fave and is guaranteed survival according to the outline, so no.

7. Sansa and Tyrion ending up together would validate Tywin's scheme, since it means the Lannisters would get Winterfell. Book Sansa's been disinherited, so she won't end up with Winterfell in the books. Therefore, she probably won't end up with Winterfell in the show, either.

I strongly doubt Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, even assuming Sansa survives, but your argument doesn't further that case. The strongest and best argument against Tyrion and Sansa ending up together is character-based: Book Sansa doesn't want to remain married to Tyrion, him being a hideous Lannister and all, and Book Tyrion is obsessed with Tysha and not Sansa. That's plain enough for most purposes. Getting into what GRRM supposedly wouldn't do for whatever reason, on the other hand, is a dangerous business, since GRRM saw fit to marry off Tyrion and Sansa in the first place, and it's still not clear why he did so.

1.) That's actually not what the outline says. I re-read it recently and GRRM is talking about POVs. The Starks, Tyrion, Dany and Jon are POVs that stay there from the first book to the last book. They're constant POVs while the others are not.

2) Jaime isn't a rapist in the books. That's show-only.

I don't think GRRM was trying to write Drogo to rape Daenerys. I mean he did but it's a writing issue. And well, Drogo ends up dying along with his kid anyway.

3) Jeyne escapes from Ramsay and Ramsay is good as dead. Jeyne is also a side-character versus a main character.

4.) Sansa's marriage is a plot device that serves several functions. It forces Robb to legitimize Jon and name him his heir, it stop any other Lannister or Tyrell from marrying Sansa and it makes Tyrion miserable. Besides, it's going to be undone eventually. That's one of the functions of Tysha still living.

5) He calls it a sham marriage and doesn't treat it seriously so that's what is implied. It doesn't factor in for him.

6) Like I said the outline doesn't actually say who survives. That paragraph is about constant POVS and which will go from the first to third book.

7) Doesn't mean squat. King Jon can fully restore Sansa's inheritance if he wants to. And that's not even factoring in that Robb may not have even disinherited her but only put Jon ahead of her.

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

If costume fitting is normally done before filming starts (all the clothes needed should generally be known by then), then this last fitting may be for a far later date of filming. One fitting could mean multiple new costumes, if required. And since things aren't filmed chronologically, it really doesn't tell us much other then that Sansa will have at least one change of clothes in the coming season.

Given that filming is so spread out for the final season, the extra costume fitting may have been required as the clothes department may not be able to complete all the clothes needed in time.

We can reasonably expect that Sansa will probably start out the season with the clothes she wore in S7 (no change of scenery or situation), so at least one new look apparently will appear later on.

Unrelated: a Sansa/Tyrion marriage, bookwise, could mean Sansa's children get Casterly Rock. Maybe Winterfell, too, depending on whether Bran declines the lordship (and if Rickon has a similar fate in the books as he did in the show). If so, it would rather be the opposite of what Tywin intended - his main consideration was to get Tyrion out of Casterly Rock.

Tywin wanted a Lannister ruling Winterfell. (That was the basis behind why he married Tyrion to Sansa.)

Tyrion ruling Casterly Rock is unrelated to that.

GraceK · March 4, 2018

https://mobile.twitter.com/kellyscellars/status/970248749141385216

Tyrion, Dany , Jon and Greyworm in Belfast. Who else wishes they could be at that table? :)

Edited March 4, 2018 by GraceK

Edith · March 4, 2018

Also:

I don't think that person is Emilia, no only Emilia was in London, but the actor the GOT crew tried to hide is too tall. There was supposedly an autograph from Isaac so it could be him.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Edith

Eyes High · March 4, 2018

59 minutes ago, GraceK said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/kellyscellars/status/970248749141385216

Tyrion, Dany , Jon and Greyworm in Belfast. Who else wishes they could be at that table? :)

At /Freefolk, there's debate over the brunette women on the couch whose faces are hidden. Possible suspects include Carice, Lena (who posted a selfie from Belfast on her Instagram last week), Hannah Murray (Gilly), and Peter Dinklage's wife.

Sophie Turner has started filming Heavy in Toronto.

15 hours ago, WindyNights said:

1.) That's actually not what the outline says. I re-read it recently and GRRM is talking about POVs. The Starks, Tyrion, Dany and Jon are POVs that stay there from the first book to the last book. They're constant POVs while the others are not.

If you read it carefully, the implication is clear that the main five--which isn't "the Starks," it's Jon, Bran and Arya--survive the books, since the statement that they make it through all (as then planned) three volumes is a caveat to GRRM saying that he wants to create the impression that no character is safe.

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2) Jaime isn't a rapist in the books. That's show-only.

When Cersei is protesting and telling him "no," the books say that Jaime "never heard her." So yeah, it's rape in the books, albeit more ambiguous than the show.

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I don't think GRRM was trying to write Drogo to rape Daenerys.

And yet he did and isn't fussed about it. So maybe there is something to your suggestion that GRRM is a misogynist. His blithe acceptance of Dany and Drogo's relationship being a romance is not a good look. At least D&D weren't afraid to acknowledge that Dany was raped (although they romanticized their relationship, too, so there is that).

It is kind of weird that there is so much rape and sexual assault in ASOIAF--most of the main characters are either rapists/molesters (Jaime, Tyrion, etc.), sexual assault/abuse victims (Dany, Cersei, Jon, Sansa, etc.), or both (Littlefinger, Theon, etc.)--but there you have it.

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3) Jeyne escapes from Ramsay and Ramsay is good as dead. Jeyne is also a side-character versus a main character.

Her escape from Ramsay doesn't negate that GRRM went there. In fact, GRRM seems to delight in getting more and more shockingly lurid in the rape/torture department with each passing book; Ramsay's treatment of Jeyne is only one example, and it's arguably not even the worst. In light of that, Sansa (presumably willingly) ending up with Tyrion wouldn't even move the needle for "really damn grim" in ASOIAF.

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4.) Sansa's marriage is a plot device that serves several functions. It forces Robb to legitimize Jon and name him his heir, it stop any other Lannister or Tyrell from marrying Sansa and it makes Tyrion miserable.

There were many other ways to accomplish those aims, though. Sansa could have been married off to another Lannister (like Daven or Lancel). The argument about Tyrion's misery doesn't hold up, either. Tyrion lost a nose at Blackwater, is falsely accused of murder in a trumped-up trial orchestrated by a sister who always hated him, is betrayed by Shae and Jaime, and learns that his first wife truly loved him, none of which required his marriage to Sansa, and all of which seems to have caused him far more anguish in ADWD than his marriage to Sansa. So this answer is an unsatisfactory one.

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Besides, it's going to be undone eventually. That's one of the functions of Tysha still living.

Really? GRRM married Tyrion and Sansa off and contrived a way for them to stay married (for at least five years with the timeskip as then planned) for a reason, and went to considerable pains to do so.

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5) He calls it a sham marriage and doesn't treat it seriously so that's what is implied. It doesn't factor in for him.

Are you sure? Tyrion brings up Sansa completely unprompted almost immediately after he exchanges greetings with Jon. He then goes fishing for information about what Sansa thinks about him and alludes to the marriage ("Does she miss me terribly?"). Although it's in the form of a self-deprecating joke, it shows that the marriage at least does "factor in for him." If he doesn't care about the marriage, why even bring Sansa up at all? It's only when Jon appears unresponsive to and unamused by Tyrion's joke that Tyrion quickly backs off and tries to smooth any ruffled feathers, saying the marriage was a sham and unconsummated. He then finishes by praising Sansa's intelligence.

So if we can take anything away from that conversation, it's that Tyrion is keenly interested in how Sansa's doing, is anxious to know what she thinks of him, and wants Jon to think well of him in relation to Sansa. The marriage may very well not factor in for Tyrion, but that can't be assumed on the basis of that conversation.

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6) Like I said the outline doesn't actually say who survives. That paragraph is about constant POVS and which will go from the first to third book.

Here's the passage:

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The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

--

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

In context, the "five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however" bit qualifies the statement that GRRM wants to create the impression that no character is completely safe. So in context, GRRM seems to be saying that "I don't want anyone to think that any character is safe, but five characters totally are."

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7) Doesn't mean squat. King Jon can fully restore Sansa's inheritance if he wants to.

GRRM went to a great deal of trouble to disinherit Sansa. In fact, you claimed that that's one of the reasons he came up with the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to begin with. He's not going to undo all his hard work with a word from King Jon.

Jon has been pretty clear in the books that he believes Winterfell belongs to Sansa, but, like his likely future kingship, it may not be up to him, particularly since in the books KITN/QITN and Lord/Lady of Winterfell are not separate titles.

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And that's not even factoring in that Robb may not have even disinherited her but only put Jon ahead of her.

Robb said that Tyrion must never have the North (which he still may if Robb only put Jon ahead of Sansa). It's strongly implied that Sansa was disinherited altogether.

screamin · March 5, 2018

On 3/3/2018 at 1:38 PM, WindyNights said:

That would be a complete regression of his character.

The point of him being on the Quiet Isle is that he's learned to live without his hate:

And therefore his life is over? And having learned to be a better man than he was, he's going to - just ignore suffering outside his island that his martial skill can help alleviate, and stick selfishly to his simple life? That makes no sense.

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Now, Sandor could come out of the Quiet Isle but it should be something else other than hate driving him.

I...think that's what I was saying? While he wouldn't have forgotten he owes his brother one (because he does), it would be the impulse to save something (whether it's Sansa, or KL, or the world) that would motivate him to confront his brother.

anamika · March 5, 2018

I think it's definite that Sansa is disinherited in Robb's will considering that even Catelyn wanted that done.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is a millstone around her neck and I suspect that GRRM did it to keep her out of the Winterfell storyline even though she survives KL in the books unlike in the original outline where she presumably dies at Jaime's hand.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion effectively removes Sansa from inheriting Winterfell. This does not effect Bran or Rickon since they are ahead of her anyways. But it paves the way for Jon to be legitimized as a Stark and for Arya to get Winterfell if Jon, Bran or Rickon do not. In this case, Sansa does not have to die for Arya to get Winterfell. I think her marriage to Tyrion ensures that WF goes to one of the 'three children of WF - Arya, Bran and Jon'.

It is also a stumbling block to LF's plans in the Vale. He can't unveil Alayne as Sansa Stark, heir to the North, until her marriage to Harry the Heir. And she can't marry him until Tyrion is dead.

I doubt Sansa goes North in the books, but if she does, it could follow the season 7 plotline of Sansa/LF Vs Jon/Arya/Rickon where a disinherited Sansa under LF's influence tries to take back Winterfell from KITN Jon. Once Jon is legitimized as a Stark by Robb, I doubt he sees any reason to give way to Sansa. In the books, Jon says that WF belongs to Sansa because he is beholden to the Watch and Stannis lays down several preconditions like burning down the Weirwoods. ADwD Jon wants WF and I think a wilder, greyer resurrected Jon will be okay as KITN/Lord of Winterfell.

Neither Sansa nor Tyrion can annul the marriage unless there is a regime in KL that's friendly to them. If Tyrion's plot follows the books, he could do it if he comes to Westeros as Dany's adviser when she takes the throne. He currently dislikes Sansa and may fall in love with Dany. If LF gets involved in the fAegon plot, Sansa could do it, if fAegon takes the throne. But all this is going to take a while.

It could be that Sansa ends up with Tyrion in the end at Casterly Rock. Instead of getting the handsome prince, she ends up with the ugly dwarf. I thought that was the point of her Beauty and the Beast story with the Hound, but maybe that is just preparing her for ending up with Tyrion. I do think that will be a very unhappy ending for the character. It's still hard to envision a Sansa who has free will agreeing to remain married to Tyrion at the end of the series.

I would like Sansa to feel some genuine remorse for her actions, however unwitting, in KL. There were serious consequences to her betrayal - Arya on the run, Jeyne Poole's horror story and Ned's execution. Maybe that will happen when she crosses paths with Arya once again. I want her to do some serious introspection, start connecting the dots regarding LF and help her little cousin in the Vale. I would rather she go down outwitting LF and protecting her family than end up tied to Tyrion even if it means she becomes Lady of Casterly Rock.

Edited March 5, 2018 by anamika

Sunshinegal · March 5, 2018

I thought Sansa was also a child of Winterfell. Wasn't she born and raised there.

anamika · March 5, 2018

30 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I thought Sansa was also a child of Winterfell. Wasn't she born and raised there.

If this is in reference to my post, I was referring to GRRM's original outline:

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In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

If Winterfell goes to anyone at the end of the books, it will be to one of these three characters, IMO.

Eyes High · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I think it's definite that Sansa is disinherited in Robb's will considering that even Catelyn wanted that done.

Yes. It's not explicitly spelled out, but given Robb's insistence that Tyrion must never have the North, it seems clear enough to me.

And of course this is perfect karmic payback for Tywin, since his scheme for the Lannisters to claim the North through Sansa by marrying her to Tyrion provoked a reaction from Robb that guaranteed that this could never happen.

It's also perfect for Sansa, who laments in ASOS that people only want her for her claim and that no one will ever marry her for love. With Robb disinheriting her and stripping her of that claim, she won't have to worry about that ever again. I'm guessing Book Sansa will be less than pleased when she realizes what Robb did, but be careful what you wish for and all that.

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It could be that Sansa ends up with Tyrion in the end at Casterly Rock.

Casterly Rock may go to no one in the end: the phrase "Tywin loomed [or endured] eternal as Casterly Rock" is used more than once in the books, suggesting that maybe Casterly Rock will eventually go the way of Tywin.

It seems likely that Tyrion will end up with both Sansa and Casterly Rock, or neither, given this quote from ASOS (when Tyrion is contemplating the NW vows):

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It would mean the end of his marriage and whatever claim he might ever have made for Casterly Rock, but he did not seem destined to enjoy either in any case.

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Instead of getting the handsome prince, she ends up with the ugly dwarf. I thought that was the point of her Beauty and the Beast story with the Hound, but maybe that is just preparing her for ending up with Tyrion.

If GRRM has decided to spare Sansa since he wrote the outline that indicated her doom, I doubt he did so just to have her end up as Tyrion's trophy wife, but I can't rule it out completely.

I do think that assuming she survives, that Sansa won't end up with Winterfell, so GRRM will need to put her somewhere, unless she winds up as the cool spinster (widow?) aunt hanging out at Winterfell and babysitting Arya, Jon or whoever's kids. Casterly Rock wouldn't be my first guess, though.

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I do think that will be a very unhappy ending for the character.

Sansa seems destined for an unhappy ending no matter what happens, I think. That will be part of the long-term karmic payback for Sansa's AGOT mistakes.

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If Winterfell goes to anyone at the end of the books, it will be to one of these three characters, IMO.

Agreed. If (when?) Jon ascends the throne, that would leave Bran and Arya.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eyes High

anamika · March 5, 2018

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Casterly Rock may go to no one in the end: the phrase "Tywin loomed [or endured] eternal as Casterly Rock" is used more than once in the books, suggesting that maybe Casterly Rock will eventually go the way of Tywin.

There's still Jaime and Brienne. I doubt Jaime is going to survive the series, but Brienne may live and maybe there will be a little Lannister on the way :) There's speculation about everyone getting pregnant, so let's throw in some pregnant Brienne in there as well!

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I do think that assuming she survives, that Sansa won't end up with Winterfell, so GRRM will need to put her somewhere, unless she winds up as the cool spinster (widow?) aunt hanging out at Winterfell and babysitting Arya, Jon or whoever's kids.

If she lives in Winterfell, then it means that Bran becomes Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North. Maybe on the show, Bran is himself again, next season.

Personally, I think Winterfell will go to the only Stark who looks like a Stark.

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

There's still Jaime and Brienne. I doubt Jaime is going to survive the series, but Brienne may live and maybe there will be a little Lannister on the way :) There's speculation about everyone getting pregnant, so let's throw in some pregnant Brienne in there as well!

If she lives in Winterfell, then it means that Bran becomes Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North. Maybe on the show, Bran is himself again, next season.

Personally, I think Winterfell will go to the only Stark who looks like a Stark.

If Arya ends up with Gendry then not even her kids will look like Starks. The seed is strong.

It's not like the Stark look is uncommon though. Sansa can marry a northerner. Perhaps a Karstark to continue the Stark look.

Eyes High · March 5, 2018

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

There's still Jaime and Brienne. I doubt Jaime is going to survive the series, but Brienne may live and maybe there will be a little Lannister on the way :) There's speculation about everyone getting pregnant, so let's throw in some pregnant Brienne in there as well!

For it to be a little Lannister, Brienne and Jaime would have to be married. That seems unlikely to me, but you never know.

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Personally, I think Winterfell will go to the only Stark who looks like a Stark.

I can dig it.

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I think it's definite that Sansa is disinherited in Robb's will considering that even Catelyn wanted that done.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is a millstone around her neck and I suspect that GRRM did it to keep her out of the Winterfell storyline even though she survives KL in the books unlike in the original outline where she presumably dies at Jaime's hand.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion effectively removes Sansa from inheriting Winterfell. This does not effect Bran or Rickon since they are ahead of her anyways. But it paves the way for Jon to be legitimized as a Stark and for Arya to get Winterfell if Jon, Bran or Rickon do not. In this case, Sansa does not have to die for Arya to get Winterfell. I think her marriage to Tyrion ensures that WF goes to one of the 'three children of WF - Arya, Bran and Jon'.

It is also a stumbling block to LF's plans in the Vale. He can't unveil Alayne as Sansa Stark, heir to the North, until her marriage to Harry the Heir. And she can't marry him until Tyrion is dead.

I doubt Sansa goes North in the books, but if she does, it could follow the season 7 plotline of Sansa/LF Vs Jon/Arya/Rickon where a disinherited Sansa under LF's influence tries to take back Winterfell from KITN Jon. Once Jon is legitimized as a Stark by Robb, I doubt he sees any reason to give way to Sansa. In the books, Jon says that WF belongs to Sansa because he is beholden to the Watch and Stannis lays down several preconditions like burning down the Weirwoods. ADwD Jon wants WF and I think a wilder, greyer resurrected Jon will be okay as KITN/Lord of Winterfell.

Neither Sansa nor Tyrion can annul the marriage unless there is a regime in KL that's friendly to them. If Tyrion's plot follows the books, he could do it if he comes to Westeros as Dany's adviser when she takes the throne. He currently dislikes Sansa and may fall in love with Dany. If LF gets involved in the fAegon plot, Sansa could do it, if fAegon takes the throne. But all this is going to take a while.

It could be that Sansa ends up with Tyrion in the end at Casterly Rock. Instead of getting the handsome prince, she ends up with the ugly dwarf. I thought that was the point of her Beauty and the Beast story with the Hound, but maybe that is just preparing her for ending up with Tyrion. I do think that will be a very unhappy ending for the character. It's still hard to envision a Sansa who has free will agreeing to remain married to Tyrion at the end of the series.

I would like Sansa to feel some genuine remorse for her actions, however unwitting, in KL. There were serious consequences to her betrayal - Arya on the run, Jeyne Poole's horror story and Ned's execution. Maybe that will happen when she crosses paths with Arya once again. I want her to do some serious introspection, start connecting the dots regarding LF and help her little cousin in the Vale. I would rather she go down outwitting LF and protecting her family than end up tied to Tyrion even if it means she becomes Lady of Casterly Rock.

Actually, Sansa doing what she did saved Arya and herself. Bookwise though.

If Ned had succeeded in his plan then Sansa and Arya would've been in Winterfell when it was take .

Theon would've forcefully married and raped Sansa. He says as much in his POV.

1 hour ago, screamin said:

And therefore his life is over? And having learned to be a better man than he was, he's going to - just ignore suffering outside his island that his martial skill can help alleviate, and stick selfishly to his simple life? That makes no sense.

I...think that's what I was saying? While he wouldn't have forgotten he owes his brother one (because he does), it would be the impulse to save something (whether it's Sansa, or KL, or the world) that would motivate him to confront his brother.

Sandor isn't that type of person. He's not that heroic. He's always been an asshole that can sometimes be nice. But at least now, he's learning to let go of his hate.

That doesn't mean he's obtained a hero complex.

Edited March 5, 2018 by WindyNights

anamika · March 5, 2018

34 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Actually, Sansa doing what she did saved Arya and herself. Bookwise though.

If Ned had succeeded in his plan then Sansa and Arya would've been in Winterfell when it was take .

Theon would've forcefully married and raped Sansa. He says as much in his POV.

This is a new kind of excuse for Sansa's actions in KL. She saved their lives by betraying them! Similar to Sansa lying about the Trident incident to save Arya. It seems like Sansa is always saving people with her lies and betrayal!

And Sansa may have been saved from rape at Theon's hands, but what about poor Jeyne getting raped by dogs? Does not matter?

Who knows what would have happened if they had headed north? The circumstances would be entirely different then. If Ned had succeeded in his plan , he would not have lost his head when he confessed to save Sansa. He would have been a hostage. Maybe Robb would not have waged war and send Theon to Balon. Maybe Catelyn would have gone North to be with her daughters - as she did in the original outline where she, Arya and Bran flee Winterfell when it was burned down. Maybe Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon escape before it can be taken. Maybe Sansa and Arya don't even reach Winterfell and meet Catelyn on the way and stay with Robb.

We only know what did happen when Sansa betrayed her family - Arya fleeing KL by herself, Jeyne Poole given over to LF to be turned into a prostitute, Ned losing his head and Sansa herself trapped in KL suffering abuse. So maybe some acknowledgement and introspection on her actions in KL would be nice.

Edited March 5, 2018 by anamika

Sunshinegal · March 5, 2018

54 minutes ago, anamika said:

Personally, I think Winterfell will go to the only Stark who looks like a Stark.

I kinda think this is horrible since Arya is last in the line of succession. That means that something bad would happen to her remaining siblings. Also it kinda justifies Catelyns treatment of Jon because it would mean that any child that looked like her wouldn't be able to rule the North. That was her fear since only Arya had the Stark.

I think that any Targareyan going forward would have the Stark look because of Jon.

I place more importance to Stark values over the Stark look. All of the living Starks are now honoring these values. What if Arya s kids don't have the Stark look. Does that mean that they can't rule.

Also, how can you blame what happened to Jeyne Poole on Sansa. That was the Lannisters and Little finger. Cersei was plotting for a while because she didn't want Robert to find out the parentage of her kids. She knew it was dangerous and engineered his boar hunt. That would have been done with or without Sansa. Little finger was plotting the downfall of Ned because he was obsessed with Catelyn.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Sunshinegal

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If you read it carefully, the implication is clear that the main five--which isn't "the Starks," it's Jon, Bran and Arya--survive the books, since the statement that they make it through all (as then planned) three volumes is a caveat to GRRM saying that he wants to create the impression that no character is safe.

When Cersei is protesting and telling him "no," the books say that Jaime "never heard her." So yeah, it's rape in the books, albeit more ambiguous than the show.

And yet he did and isn't fussed about it. So maybe there is something to your suggestion that GRRM is a misogynist. His blithe acceptance of Dany and Drogo's relationship being a romance is not a good look. At least D&D weren't afraid to acknowledge that Dany was raped (although they romanticized their relationship, too, so there is that).

It is kind of weird that there is so much rape and sexual assault in ASOIAF--most of the main characters are either rapists/molesters (Jaime, Tyrion, etc.), sexual assault/abuse victims (Dany, Cersei, Jon, Sansa, etc.), or both (Littlefinger, Theon, etc.)--but there you have it.

Her escape from Ramsay doesn't negate that GRRM went there. In fact, GRRM seems to delight in getting more and more shockingly lurid in the rape/torture department with each passing book; Ramsay's treatment of Jeyne is only one example, and it's arguably not even the worst. In light of that, Sansa (presumably willingly) ending up with Tyrion wouldn't even move the needle for "really damn grim" in ASOIAF.

There were many other ways to accomplish those aims, though. Sansa could have been married off to another Lannister (like Daven or Lancel). The argument about Tyrion's misery doesn't hold up, either. Tyrion lost a nose at Blackwater, is falsely accused of murder in a trumped-up trial orchestrated by a sister who always hated him, is betrayed by Shae and Jaime, and learns that his first wife truly loved him, none of which required his marriage to Sansa, and all of which seems to have caused him far more anguish in ADWD than his marriage to Sansa. So this answer is an unsatisfactory one.

Really? GRRM married Tyrion and Sansa off and contrived a way for them to stay married (for at least five years with the timeskip as then planned) for a reason, and went to considerable pains to do so.

Are you sure? Tyrion brings up Sansa completely unprompted almost immediately after he exchanges greetings with Jon. He then goes fishing for information about what Sansa thinks about him and alludes to the marriage ("Does she miss me terribly?"). Although it's in the form of a self-deprecating joke, it shows that the marriage at least does "factor in for him." If he doesn't care about the marriage, why even bring Sansa up at all? It's only when Jon appears unresponsive to and unamused by Tyrion's joke that Tyrion quickly backs off and tries to smooth any ruffled feathers, saying the marriage was a sham and unconsummated. He then finishes by praising Sansa's intelligence.

So if we can take anything away from that conversation, it's that Tyrion is keenly interested in how Sansa's doing, is anxious to know what she thinks of him, and wants Jon to think well of him in relation to Sansa. The marriage may very well not factor in for Tyrion, but that can't be assumed on the basis of that conversation.

Here's the passage:

In context, the "five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however" bit qualifies the statement that GRRM wants to create the impression that no character is completely safe. So in context, GRRM seems to be saying that "I don't want anyone to think that any character is safe, but five characters totally are."

GRRM went to a great deal of trouble to disinherit Sansa. In fact, you claimed that that's one of the reasons he came up with the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to begin with. He's not going to undo all his hard work with a word from King Jon.

Jon has been pretty clear in the books that he believes Winterfell belongs to Sansa, but, like his likely future kingship, it may not be up to him, particularly since in the books KITN/QITN and Lord/Lady of Winterfell are not separate titles.

Robb said that Tyrion must never have the North (which he still may if Robb only put Jon ahead of Sansa). It's strongly implied that Sansa was disinherited altogether.

When I say the Starks, its shorthand for the Stark children not named Robb and Rickon.

1) Paragraph A's subject is POV structure. That's what the first sentence sets up. (Basically every paragraph in the entire letter is set up that way) Look at the entire thing and its about how POVs change, enter and leave the story and how they are interwoven. It's not all about deaths. Character deaths are just an aspect of the larger point he is making about his POV structure.

You're thinking that this about who lives or dies when the actual subject that GRRM answering is "who are we following?"

2) It's sexual assault at first but it's not rape because Cersei begs for Jaime to put it in at the kissing stage. It's definitely sleazy writing though. But yeah, Jaime isn't a rapist. Although it's implied that this is how Jaime and Cersei like to have sex which just makes their sexual relationship more troubling.

3) I actually find the self-awareness even worse because they knew it was fucked KL and still played it straight.

4) Not weird to me. It's medieval times. Most of the characters are rapists/sexual abusers judging by our standards including Rhaegar, Tormund + all the Wildlings, Daenerys, Robert, potentially Renly(depending on when his relationship with Loras started) etc. People had some fucked up sexual notions.

And I mean in modern American society, 1 out of every 6 women have experienced attempted rape or a completed rape.

Hell, chivalry codes were notoriously rapey.

This was Capellanus' guide on love for knights and this was what he thought they should do to seduce a peasant:

Be careful to puff her up with lots of praise and then, when you find a convenient place, do not hesitate to take what you seek and to embrace her by force. For you can hardly soften their outward inflexibility so far that they will grant you their embrace quietly or permit you to have the solaces you desire unless first you use a little compulsion as a convenient cure for their shyness

5) Ultimately, audiences are going to have less investment in Jeyne than in Sansa. It's fictional so it's fine to be comparative. That's not to say that Jeyne being married to Ramsay isn't horrible but it hurts less than if Sansa were to marry Tyrion and the Lannisters end up with Winterfell. It's basically a Lannister victory. Not a complete victory but a better victory for them than the Starks.

6) Daven would've raped Sansa immediately and confirmed the marriage. Lancel would've served but I think GRRM wanted to keep them together and make Tyrion more miserable as a result. Tyrion not raping Sansa eventually ends up humiliating him in the Red Keep.

7) I believe the plan was always to annul the marriage using Tysha so Sansa could marry the Lord of the Vale.

8) Why not? Robb's Will did what GRRM wanted it to which is to put Jon ahead of Sansa.

9)Do you really think that GRRM is going to end the series with Jon usurping Ned's kids of their rights? One of them will get them back eventually whether it's through abdication, Jon being being promoted to king of Westeros, Jon dying or etc.

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

This is a new kind of excuse for Sansa's actions in KL. She saved their lives by betraying them! Similar to Sansa lying about the Trident incident to save Arya. It seems like Sansa is always saving people with her lies and betrayal!

And Sansa may have been saved from rape at Theon's hands, but what about poor Jeyne getting raped by dogs? Does not matter?

Who knows what would have happened if they had headed north? The circumstances would be entirely different then. If Ned had succeeded in his plan , he would not have lost his head when he confessed to save Sansa. He would have been a hostage. Maybe Robb would not have waged war and send Theon to Balon. Maybe Catelyn would have gone North to be with her daughters - as she did in the original outline where she, Arya and Bran flee Winterfell when it was burned down. Maybe Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon escape before it can be taken. Maybe Sansa and Arya don't even reach Winterfell and meet Catelyn on the way and stay with Robb.

We only know what did happen when Sansa betrayed her family - Arya fleeing KL by herself, Jeyne Poole given over to LF to be turned into a prostitute, Ned losing his head and Sansa herself trapped in KL suffering abuse. So maybe some acknowledgement and introspection on her actions in KL would be nice.

Ned would've still lost his head because he wouldn't try to save himself. He'd let himself be executed probably proclaiming that Stannis is the true heir if he had been publically executed.

So everything in the North happens almost the same as before.

Also they were being taken by boat, they wouldn't have met with Catelyn along the way.

Even if Sansa, Arya and Bran flee Winterfell before it was burned down, Sansa would've still been forced to marry Theon and raped by him. Hell, Sansa and Arya might've been killed by wights along the way.

Where Arya and Sansa are now is probably some of the best outcomes they could've had really.

And considering that Jeyne would've been with them then Jeyne might've been raped by an ironborn or Ramsay still except she'd have been killed afterwards.

Stella · March 5, 2018

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie Turner has started filming Heavy in Toronto.

You've mentioned this filming a few times but there is practically no information about it on IMDB. It's not listed on either Sophie's page or Daniel Zovatto's. There is an "in development" page on IMDB Pro but only that it's "in development". Do you have any links or other details about this film?

Certainly ST could be filming for a few months on another project, especially if GOT is filming battle sequences for the next month or so. It surprises me that IMDB doesn't seem to have the info.

ElizaD · March 5, 2018

At least Show Sansa's marriage to Ramsay was over after a few weeks and she was allowed to hate him for raping her instead of being told to be grateful for it. I can't think of a more disgusting ending to her story than a lifetime of marriage to Tyrion, who was bitter in the most classic Nice Guy manner when empty compliments didn't make an abused 12-year-old want to give him the sex he felt he deserved for making an effort with his pickup lines. Much better to go down defending Winterfell than to reduce herself to the trophy wife/sex toy of a man who never saw her as a person, merely the beautiful highborn maiden he was entitled to, and who has already demonstrated that he is prepared to rape and kill women when his feelings have been hurt.

I can't say "GRRM wouldn't do that!" because the ending hasn't aired yet and we just don't know, but Sansa/Tyrion is the endgame pairing that is flat-out repulsive because it all boils down to rewarding Tyrion for agreeing to a plan that involved him raping a child hostage who would be tricked into a surprise marriage in order to prevent her escape from her abusers. It's been ages since I read ASOS, but I still get so damn angry remembering how Tyrion is bitter about people laughing at him during the wedding without ever caring that Sansa had to fear being raped by him - and that says everything about this ship, that Tyrion never cared about what kind of pain and humiliation marital rape might mean to a 12-year-old, only about the way it hurt his pride that he could only have sex with this little hottie by forcing her and that she was not changing her mind about not wanting him because, shock and horror, sex didn't turn out to be his automatic reward for the gesture of not raping her on their wedding night, Sansa was a real live girl with a mind of her own. There are some proposed endgame couples that make me go eh, I don't ship it, but absolutely nothing else is as vile as the prospect of Sansa learning that she has no right to refuse sex to a man.

Really, all the Sansa death theories are soothing to read because they mean her arc won't have been about learning that her duty in life is to provide sex and ego boosts to a man who would rape her if he found her as a slave in a brothel and only gives her the courtesy of bitterly waiting a while before claiming his marital rights because she's a highborn virgin.

Happy Harpy · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

Really, all the Sansa death theories are soothing to read because they mean her arc won't have been about learning that her duty in life is to provide sex and ego boosts to a man who would rape her if he found her as a slave in a brothel and only gives her the courtesy of bitterly waiting a while before claiming his marital rights because she's a highborn virgin.

And what did Ned do on his wedding night with Catelyn? He claimed his marital rights to a highborn virgin who loved his brother and had just lost him. He was by all accounts in love with another woman, just like Tyrion was in love (or believed himself in love) with Shae. You marry, you consummate, it's a legal rape. In the GoT universe, that's how arranged marriages work; that's also how they worked in the past and how they still work in many countries of the world, right now.

It seems to me that you're mixing everything, book and show. There's no need to invent situations like Sansa being a slave in a brothel, she isn't and there's about zero chance it happens in either medium; but something did happen, Tyrion being drunk and having the legal right to rape Sansa. And he didn't. Fact, not speculation. Many characters, Sansa included, are more definitely grey in the books than they are on the show and so are the situations. In either medium, Tyrion treated Sansa better than the rules of the respective universe expected him to, and it was beyond a mere "courtesy".

On the show, which is after all the main subject here, Tyrion treated Sansa with respect and he always showed he respected her for more than her looks ("Lady Sansa, you might survive us all yet", S2). He was attracted to her beauty, yes, but he called "fucking her", as Bronn put it, an "evil notion". He was also threatened by his father into marrying her, and we know what Tywin was capable of. On their wedding night, he didn't even touch her. Her age (14) turned him off. He wasn't bitter about "waiting", and not only "a while" since he made a quip implying he'd never touch her if she was never willing. He is never bitter about her, even after she flees and he's in a cell. Finally, D&D went out of their way to inverse the brothel scene of the books with another where he can't even touch a prostitute, in Volantis. Maybe those changes were made because TV is more mainstream, maybe they were also made for reasons pertaining to his end game. Who knows?

About that, not saying it's your case in particular but I sometimes get the feeling that Book!Tyrion's misdeeds are less of a problem than Tyrion not being "the young hunk Sansa deserves". And I don't think a hunk is hinted at as a end game for her.

Conceited airhead Sansa was all about appearances so she wanted to marry a beautiful prince/knight etc. and have his babies. It led her to betray her family, in the most self-serving way possible (remember, "you're spoiling everything", to her sister dodging a real sword? So much for Generous Young Sansa) that's why I don't see her getting now what she wanted back then. Her romantic story arc so far has been about the destruction of her shallow vision of love based on looks and social status, a deconstruction of the fairytale princess. Which leads me to believe that if she lives, she's going to stay a Single Lady (don't put a ring on it) or choose to be with someone her younger self would have deemed as "ugly" but treats her right.

If she lives. If Winterfell goes down, I still see her going down with it.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Happy Harpy

Katsullivan · March 5, 2018

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Ned would've still lost his head because he wouldn't try to save himself. He'd let himself be executed probably proclaiming that Stannis is the true heir if he had been publically executed.

Ned lost his head because he confessed to treason. He confessed to treason to save Sansa. If he hadn't confessed, and with no other Starks as hostage, he would have remained in the dungeon and the Lannisters would have kept him as a bargaining tool to keep Robb in check. If Ned was still alive, Robb won't have been crowned King in the North, and really, we're talking about an entirely different story at this point.

There's no way that Sansa's not betraying her father won't have drastically altered this story. Like @anamika said, playing the "what if?" game is pointless and is a messy way to retroactively vindicate Sansa.

8 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Really, all the Sansa death theories are soothing to read because they mean her arc won't have been about learning that her duty in life is to provide sex and ego boosts to a man who would rape her if he found her as a slave in a brothel and only gives her the courtesy of bitterly waiting a while before claiming his marital rights because she's a highborn virgin.

NGL, I've wanted Sansa dead since AGOT.

Eyes High · March 5, 2018

9 hours ago, Stella said:

You've mentioned this filming a few times but there is practically no information about it on IMDB. It's not listed on either Sophie's page or Daniel Zovatto's. There is an "in development" page on IMDB Pro but only that it's "in development". Do you have any links or other details about this film?

Certainly ST could be filming for a few months on another project, especially if GOT is filming battle sequences for the next month or so. It surprises me that IMDB doesn't seem to have the info.

Article from February 2018 where Daniel Zovatto talks about the filming. Money quote for the non-Spanish speakers, very roughly translated:

Quote

I have a movie that I'll be making in March with Sophie Turner (the Game of Thrones actress). Heavy is a romance and a story with a little bit of action.

Pic of Sophie in Toronto with baby Timothy Olyphant...sorry, Daniel Zovatto.

8 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I can't think of a more disgusting ending to her story than a lifetime of marriage to Tyrion

Having reread AFFC and ADWD not long ago, which GRRM spent burnishing his gore and torture porn skills, I'd say you lack imagination.

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Conceited airhead Sansa was all about appearances so she wanted to marry a beautiful prince/knight etc. and have his babies. It led her to betray her family, in the most self-serving way possible

Agreed. Book Sansa's shot at ending up with a handsome dude, prince or otherwise, died the minute she sold out her family to preserve her shot at marrying her handsome prince. If she survives (doubtful) and ends up with anyone (also doubtful), it will be an ugly guy. If she's lucky, it will be an ugly guy at least about whom she harbours romantic fantasies (Book Sandor), but when has Sansa ever been lucky?

...This is (yet) another reason why endgame Jonsa theories are dumb. Sansa's not going to end up making out better in the end than she would have if she hadn't betrayed her family.

23 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

There's no way that Sansa's not betraying her father won't have drastically altered this story. Like @anamika said, playing the "what if?" game is pointless and is a messy way to retroactively vindicate Sansa.

If GRRM refuses to exonerate Sansa for her role in Ned's death, the reader certainly has no business doing so.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eyes High

Wouter · March 5, 2018

On 4-3-2018 at 6:52 AM, WindyNights said:

4.) Sansa's marriage is a plot device that serves several functions. It forces Robb to legitimize Jon and name him his heir, it stop any other Lannister or Tyrell from marrying Sansa and it makes Tyrion miserable. Besides, it's going to be undone eventually. That's one of the functions of Tysha still living.

[...]

Tywin wanted a Lannister ruling Winterfell. (That was the basis behind why he married Tyrion to Sansa.)

Tyrion ruling Casterly Rock is unrelated to that.

Tywin's main aim of the marriage (in the books) was to make sure Tyrion would not attempt to play his cards as legal heir of Casterly Rock (which he was, with Jaime in the Kingsguard). He did this by making it very clear to Tyrion what would happen if he attempted to inherit CR, and by giving him a consolation prize to focus on instead: Winterfell and Sansa. Gaining power in the north was only a secondary motive, and given that Tywin also made a deal giving the same north to the Boltons it's not clear exactly who he intended to come out on top. I doubt Tyrion would get meaningful support from Tywin to oust Bolton, if needed (and it would have been needed). Tyrion would have to counts on his wits and on the northern lords hating Ramsay and/or Roose more than himself, admittedly with the possible trump card of having real Sansa rather than fake Arya.

As for Tysha - we don't know if she still lives. I don't think that marriage is considered valid anyway, so an annulment of Tyrion/Sansa would have to come from other arguments. It depends on who is holding the strings of whomever would be the High Septon at that point, and if those in power would want the marriage dissolved or not. In the show of course, marriages are simply set aside when inconvenient.

The show runners did significantly change the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic regarding the wedding though. In the show, the relationship was far more cordial - from both sides - compared to the books.

Brn2bwild · March 5, 2018

43 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Ned lost his head because he confessed to treason. He confessed to treason to save Sansa. If he hadn't confessed, and with no other Starks as hostage, he would have remained in the dungeon and the Lannisters would have kept him as a bargaining tool to keep Robb in check. If Ned was still alive, Robb won't have been crowned King in the North, and really, we're talking about an entirely different story at this point.

There's no way that Sansa's not betraying her father won't have drastically altered this story. Like @anamika said, playing the "what if?" game is pointless and is a messy way to retroactively vindicate Sansa.

NGL, I've wanted Sansa dead since AGOT.

Do you really think Ned wouldn't have been fucked even without Sansa's betrayal?

Eyes High · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

Do you really think Ned wouldn't have been fucked even without Sansa's betrayal?

In GRRM's words:

Quote

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

Ned's talk with Littlefinger was certainly a turning point, though I am not sure I would call it =the= turning point. There were other crucial decisions that could easily have changed all had they gone differently. You mention Ned's refusal of Renly, which was equally critical. And there is Varys to consider, as well as the minor but crucial player everyone forgets -- Janos Slynt, who might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder.

So... all in all, I suppose my answer would be that there is no single villain in the piece who caused it all, but rather a good half dozen players whose actions were all in part responsible for what happened.

Sansa played a significant contributing role, but she shouldn't get all of the blame.

Quote

The show runners did significantly change the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic regarding the wedding though. In the show, the relationship was far more cordial - from both sides - compared to the books.

The show writers also decided that Tyrion learning that Tysha was not a prostitute after all was something that could be safely excised from the show, which is quite significant in of itself, given that so much of Tyrion's post-ASOS arc revolves around his obsession with Tysha.

According to Cogman, the writers were planning on doing the scene where Tyrion tells the Tysha story in S2, if they got renewed, and only decided to do it in S1 because they were short on time and the scene was easy and cheap to shoot. They were pretty clear on including it. However, after S4, D&D said at Comicon that they decided against doing the S4 Tysha reveal because they would have no way of conveying it without a very long scene of dialogue that wouldn't work on TV. Fans have pointed out that that seems kind of like a bullshit excuse, given that D&D evidently found time for a long Tyrion/Jaime scene in S4 where they talked about other stuff (the infamous beetle dialogue scene), and that D&D could have found time in a later season for the revelation but never bothered.

Here's the thing, though: what if that explanation was bullshit after all? We know that it was in April 2013--around when D&D would have been writing S4--that D&D got from GRRM the general outline of how things would proceed post-ADWD, as well as all the major characters' endgames. We also know that D&D decided to scrap the Tysha reveal when adapting that part of ASOS in S4, even though that revelation has an enormous impact on Tyrion's character arc in the books. It's possible that D&D learned something in that 2013 meeting with GRRM that made them decide that the Tysha reveal could be safely discarded from Tyrion's arc without changing too much. Maybe it's that Book Tyrion eventually falls in love with Dany. If that is the reason they made the change, they weren't going to reveal that at Comicon, so we got the "adaptations are tough" explanation.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eyes High

YaddaYadda · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

Do you really think Ned wouldn't have been fucked even without Sansa's betrayal?

"It would seem he has a point," said Tyrion. "So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?"
"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."
Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?" Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous.
"The girl was wet with love. She would have done anything for Joffrey, until he cut off her father's head and called it mercy. That put an end to that." (Tyrion I, Clash 3)

Ned may have been fucked either way, but if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, he might have had the chance to get the girls away from King's Landing like he had intended. His letter to Stannis might have reached him. Ned may have become a political hostage or gotten his head chopped off. If Sansa doesn't go to Cersei, Ned might still have died, but we are looking at a very different story for Sansa, Arya, the Wot5Ks.

screamin · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

"It would seem he has a point," said Tyrion. "So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?"
"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."
Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?" Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous.
"The girl was wet with love. She would have done anything for Joffrey, until he cut off her father's head and called it mercy. That put an end to that." (Tyrion I, Clash 3)

Ned may have been fucked either way, but if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, he might have had the chance to get the girls away from King's Landing like he had intended. His letter to Stannis might have reached him. Ned may have become a political hostage or gotten his head chopped off. If Sansa doesn't go to Cersei, Ned might still have died, but we are looking at a very different story for Sansa, Arya, the Wot5Ks.

But remember, Cersei isn't telling Tyrion everything. She's withholding the info that Ned himself had nobly told her to her face that he was planning to move against her, and given her time to flee - thus ALSO giving her time to make sure the king died and that Ned was stymied in his attempt to thwart her. She withholds this information because it's too intertwined with her own guilt over things she wants to conceal from even her family - that she deliberately engineered Bob's demise and that she did it to conceal at all costs what she had confessed to Ned - her incest. So it's convenient for her to blame Sansa for giving her the cue at the right time. But you can't tell me that after hearing Ned threaten her, she WASN'T going to have every spy keeping an eye on him to avert any sudden move - like, say, putting her son's lawfully promised bride and her sister on a ship. IMO, she would never have let it come off, regardless of whether Sansa told her or not, and it's only Arya's skill and her choice of an unexpected escape route that kept her from being captured with Sansa.

Eyes High · March 5, 2018

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

"It would seem he has a point," said Tyrion. "So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?"
"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ."
Tyrion was surprised. "Truly? His own daughter?" Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous.

It says a lot in my opinion that cynical, jaded, Machiavellian Tyrion of all people has a "But she seems so nice!" reaction to learning what Sansa did.

Quote

Ned may have been fucked either way, but if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, he might have had the chance to get the girls away from King's Landing like he had intended. His letter to Stannis might have reached him. Ned may have become a political hostage or gotten his head chopped off. If Sansa doesn't go to Cersei, Ned might still have died, but we are looking at a very different story for Sansa, Arya, the Wot5Ks.

Pretty much. Even Ned successfully getting both Arya and Sansa out of KL would have changed a lot. I do think that Sansa never would have been in a position to be married off to Tyrion if she had kept her mouth shut in AGOT. By taking action to save her betrothal to a handsome prince, she wound up dooming herself to a marriage to a hideous dwarf.

Book Sansa's betrayal is one of the reasons I thought even before the 1993 outline was leaked that Sansa is unlikely to end up as queen of anything or as the endgame ruler of Winterfell. I very much doubt that Sansa is going to end up in a better position in the end than if she had not betrayed her family, since she would be benefiting in the long term from that betrayal. I do expect that Bran, Jon, and Arya, on the other hand, will make out far better in the end than if the war hadn't taken place (except for Bran's crippling if that can be counted as part of the war, of course).

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

IMO, she would never have let it come off, regardless of whether Sansa told her or not, and it's only Arya's skill and her choice of an unexpected escape route that kept her from being captured with Sansa.

Fair enough, but GRRM disagrees with you in the quote I included. He says that the information Sansa provided to Cersei was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her actions, which wouldn't be the case if Cersei had been able to acquire that information elsewhere. If Sansa's information did nothing to alter the outcome, then it would make sense to exonerate Sansa for what she did, but GRRM insists that it would be unfair to do so.

As for whether what Cersei is telling Tyrion can be taken at face value, I'd say so. Cersei's so arrogant and sure of herself most of the time that her admission that the Lannisters' triumph over Ned Stark was a very near thing but for Sansa tattling is a big deal.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eyes High

screamin · March 5, 2018

15 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sandor isn't that type of person. He's not that heroic. He's always been an asshole that can sometimes be nice. But at least now, he's learning to let go of his hate.

But then, what you're calling 'progress' in his character in the books is just him realizing he's more comfortable without hate, and learns to selfishly enjoy life without it, instead of doing good for others with his talents, as he'd done on rare occasions even in the past. (He saved Loras from the Mountain. Yes, this was motivated by his hatred for his brother, but he did good with it just the same. He saved Sansa on more than one occasion). To me, that's regression, not progress.

Quote

That doesn't mean he's obtained a hero complex.

IA that Sandor was always an asshole, and outright evil at times. But he had heroic moments as I've mentioned above (saving Loras, saving Sansa by aiding her lies in the deadly atmosphere of Joffrey's court, saving her by riding into the riot). And he had moments where he showed he might be worthy of redemption, like when he was threatening Sansa with a knife at her throat and implications of imminent rape, but allowed himself to be moved to repentance by her hymn of religious mercy when he demanded a song.

To me, his character is marked for redemption. But he's done enough wrong that 'redemption' won't just mean letting go of his hatred and having a tranquil simple life. He's done too much wrong for THAT to be all his penance. He has his martial talents, and a time is coming when everyone who has those HAS to use them in defending whatever worthy thing about the world they love, or be counted damned. And I think that even what little we see of him in the books shows that he's aware of his NEED for redemption. He's doing heavy menial work, which is a humbling occupation, suitable for penance, which shows he's aware he deserves to do penance. And if an occasion comes where he can do greater good, like, say, defending the world from the NK or from Cersei and his brother, he'll go to it.

And if you think he won't - well, you still haven't explained why his war horse is still in the stable, ready to be ridden to war at any time, with the key in the ignition and the engine running. :)

YaddaYadda · March 5, 2018

43 minutes ago, screamin said:

But remember, Cersei isn't telling Tyrion everything. She's withholding the info that Ned himself had nobly told her to her face that he was planning to move against her, and given her time to flee - thus ALSO giving her time to make sure the king died and that Ned was stymied in his attempt to thwart her. She withholds this information because it's too intertwined with her own guilt over things she wants to conceal from even her family - that she deliberately engineered Bob's demise and that she did it to conceal at all costs what she had confessed to Ned - her incest. So it's convenient for her to blame Sansa for giving her the cue at the right time. But you can't tell me that after hearing Ned threaten her, she WASN'T going to have every spy keeping an eye on him to avert any sudden move - like, say, putting her son's lawfully promised bride and her sister on a ship. IMO, she would never have let it come off, regardless of whether Sansa told her or not, and it's only Arya's skill and her choice of an unexpected escape route that kept her from being captured with Sansa.

I'm going with what the writing says.

Ned told Cersei his plans, true. He did not think that Robert would come back from the hunt with a foot in the grave. Ned was not planning on leaving King's Landing with the girls. His main priority was to get the girls away, prepare the succession and then leave. When Sansa went to Cersei, she took away Ned's window of opportunity. Instead of Sansa and Arya being on the ship by noon or whatever the time was, with their guards. Ned was seized, the northmen killed, Sansa kept prisoner in her room and Arya running for her life. Cersei didn't know Ned was planning on spiriting the girls away, nor did she think he was going to send a letter to Stannis offering him the throne.

Anyway . . .

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It says a lot in my opinion that cynical, jaded, Machiavellian Tyrion of all people has a "But she seems so nice!" reaction to learning what Sansa did.

Pretty much. Even Ned successfully getting both Arya and Sansa out of KL would have changed a lot. I do think that Sansa never would have been in a position to be married off to Tyrion if she had kept her mouth shut in AGOT. By taking action to save her betrothal to a handsome prince, she wound up dooming herself to a marriage to a hideous dwarf.

Book Sansa's betrayal is one of the reasons I thought even before the 1993 outline was leaked that Sansa is unlikely to end up as queen of anything or as the endgame ruler of Winterfell. I very much doubt that Sansa is going to end up in a better position in the end than if she had not betrayed her family, since she would be benefiting in the long term from that betrayal. I do expect that Bran, Jon, and Arya, on the other hand, will make out far better in the end than if the war hadn't taken place (except for Bran's crippling if that can be counted as part of the war, of course).

Fair enough, but GRRM disagrees with you in the quote I included. He says that the information Sansa provided to Cersei was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her actions, which wouldn't be the case if Cersei had been able to acquire that information elsewhere. If Sansa's information did nothing to alter the outcome, then it would make sense to exonerate Sansa for what she did, but GRRM insists that it would be unfair to do so.

As for whether what Cersei is telling Tyrion can be taken at face value, I'd say so. Cersei's so arrogant and sure of herself most of the time that her admission that the Lannisters' triumph over Ned Stark was a very near thing but for Sansa tattling is a big deal.

Er...Bran is literally dead. Not in body but in personality. Death of personality.

The season 7 outline makes it more explicit.

So yeah, Bran's ending is probably inherently worse than Sansa's.

Anyways like I said, Sansa saved herself from being married to Theon and raped by him and potentially Ramsay as well.

Edited March 5, 2018 by WindyNights

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

8 hours ago, Wouter said:

Tywin's main aim of the marriage (in the books) was to make sure Tyrion would not attempt to play his cards as legal heir of Casterly Rock (which he was, with Jaime in the Kingsguard). He did this by making it very clear to Tyrion what would happen if he attempted to inherit CR, and by giving him a consolation prize to focus on instead: Winterfell and Sansa. Gaining power in the north was only a secondary motive, and given that Tywin also made a deal giving the same north to the Boltons it's not clear exactly who he intended to come out on top. I doubt Tyrion would get meaningful support from Tywin to oust Bolton, if needed (and it would have been needed). Tyrion would have to counts on his wits and on the northern lords hating Ramsay and/or Roose more than himself, admittedly with the possible trump card of having real Sansa rather than fake Arya.

As for Tysha - we don't know if she still lives. I don't think that marriage is considered valid anyway, so an annulment of Tyrion/Sansa would have to come from other arguments. It depends on who is holding the strings of whomever would be the High Septon at that point, and if those in power would want the marriage dissolved or not. In the show of course, marriages are simply set aside when inconvenient.

The show runners did significantly change the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic regarding the wedding though. In the show, the relationship was far more cordial - from both sides - compared to the books.

Tywin's primary motive was to make Sansa doesn't get married to the Tyrells.

He wants Sansa to marry a Lannister. Tyrion is his choice because it makes Tyrion go away, it gives Tyrion a wife and it puts the North under Lannister control.

And Tywin makes it clear that he's planning on backstabbing the Boltons. They're given the Wardenship so they can clear out the ironborn. Once they're done and Tyrion has impregnated Sansa, Tyrion is to take Ned Stark's grandson to take his birthright at Winterfell. Likely Tywin would've revealed that Farya was fake eventually.

Tysha is alive or at lest we can presume she is. GRRM did say that we'll find out "wherever whores go" implying that we'll see Tysha again and Tywin states that he didn't kill her off. Not to mention that the Septon wasn't killed either. If LF can find the Septon and Tysha, he can give a good argument to invalidate the marriage. Maybe, he can come to terms with the High Sparrow on those grounds.

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