Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[nikma]

I think discussion in this fandom will be more annoying than anything Arya or Sansa could say in the first half of the season.

I think what we know will happen in E1 is just logical and organic continuation of the story from S7 and nothing more.

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

they are the ones who are able to put aside politics and focus on what's really important

Yeah, right. That's why Dany wanted recognition of her title before agreeing to help. And her main concern was that Cersei will take back the south when she goes north.

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[Colorful Mess]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's funny that after hearing for 7 seasons about how the Starks are the best, purest, nicest, central heroes of the tale and their house motto is literally 'Winter is coming' and their house is intricately linked to the Others and the AOTD and all that - now THEY are the ones fighting over petty politics while this threat is marching on their home.

Meanwhile after constantly hearing about the evil, power hungry Targaryens - where their evilness is apparently  inbuilt into their genes making them inherently evil -  they are the ones who are able to put aside politics and focus on what's really important.

I dare Dany to set aside her queen title at this juncture. If the above is true it really shouldn't matter to her. No one else in the room is queen except her. 

Politics is harder to "solve" than generic fantasy novel big bads anyway. Aragorn's tax policy???

[Happy Harpy]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's funny that after hearing for 7 seasons about how the Starks are the best, purest, nicest, central heroes of the tale and their house motto is literally 'Winter is coming' and their house is intricately linked to the Others and the AOTD and all that - now THEY are the ones fighting over petty politics while this threat is marching on their home.

Meanwhile after constantly hearing about the evil, power hungry Targaryens - where their evilness is apparently  inbuilt into their genes making them inherently evil -  they are the ones who are able to put aside politics and focus on what's really important.

Although one Targaryen is half a Stark 😉 Imo, the story is about how every family has good and bad...

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

With Jaime Lannister to boot!! 😂😂 oh the sweet irony!!!

And even more if Jaime ends as the only "good" Lannister. I have to say that I can't wait to get to the part where "lions and sapphires, oops, sorry shipping hiccup and wolves" fight together.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

Such a shame that Starks care about lands and titles, while that's completely unimportant for Dany lol

[nikma]

And no matter how much criticism D&D got from some parts of the fandom, they really succeeded in creating political situation in WF, where no one is truly right or wrong, it's  a pefectly grey area. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[MarySNJ]

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yeah, right. That's why Dany wanted recognition of her title before agreeing to help. And her main concern was that Cersei will take back the south when she goes north.

Yeah, before she saw the AotD. The fact that she was willing to consider a temporary truce to form an alliance of the living, with Cersei of all people, is because she could see there was a potential apocalypse that threatened the whole continent and she had to fight to save it before she can hope to rule it. 

[nikma]

Just now, MarySNJ said:

Yeah, before she saw the AotD.

And after they've killed her dragon, so it became personal, as well. 

2 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

 The fact that she was willing to consider a temporary truce to form an alliance of the living, with Cersei of all people,

The point is, it's  temporary. She still wants the throne, but after the war. She thinks about her interests after the war.  So why wouldn't the Starks think about what will happen after the war is won and that maybe the arrangement Jon made was not the best modality for alliance with Daenerys?

If she already agreed to help maybe he should't give the northern crown that easily. 

[Colorful Mess]

Rather than saying Dany should take her armies and go home (which would make her look like she expected something from them, all along) why not suggest that Dany propose an election like the NW or a kingsmoot? She could even say she'll step down for now, and it could be held after the battle. She has a lot of options, here and can still do the right thing. Let them debate it out. Then Jorah, Tyrion, Greyworm, Jon ect can make the case for her.

[anamika]

Ned was the only sensible Stark. He foresaw how stupid his kids were going to be and made sure Jon and Dany survived.

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

The point is, it's  temporary.

Yes. THAT's the point. That what Jon and Dany are doing - temporarily put aside enmities and band together to defeat a more horrifying threat - mankind being wiped out.

Jon is not saying that they have to be best friends with Cersei - he recognizes what Cersei is. He has pledged to fight against Cersei.

But FIRST. First - the NK comes first.

Fight about knee bending and kingdoms after the NK is dealt with - that's the argument Jon has been making for 4 seasons now.

Edited March 26, 2019 by anamika

[tangerine95]

I mean didn't Dany put aside her ambitions already?She didn't need Jon to bend the knee by the end,she wanted him to keep it quiet and didn't tell her advisors about it.If Jon assures her his people will come to accept her I don't see why she wouldn't believe him,he knows more about them than she does.And ultimately I think he'll be proven right and they will.

Her wanting to get a pact with Cersei isn't just about ambition,the people in the regions like the reach are under her protection and when she leaves to go north they will be in danger from someone she knows is a cruel ruler.

But I feel like people want her to be some saint who takes all the hate humbly and gives away everything for nothing in return.She's about to fight a undead army who she saw can kill the dragons she considers children.A crazy number of her people will die in the fight.If she somehow manages to win she'll have to face Cersei,even with the pact she knows it's a matter of time.So I don't see why it's so bad that she gets the allegiance of the region she's giving so much to save.Bending the knee changes nothing for them ultimately,they already lived as part of the seven kingdoms for centuries and rn they're in a situation where they need outside help.

I get the north doesn't know her but we saw that she's trying to make an effort with Jon's help to show them she's not there to do harm.And from the leaks it seems like they're openly cold,rude or even hostile with her.Which seems pretty dumb considering they think so badly of her.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Ned was the only sensible Stark. He foresaw how stupid his kids were going to be and made sure Jon and Dany survived.

Seeing Robb was born before Ned got home, and the others weren't yet born ?

He did it for love of Lyanna and it had a hell of a reverberation because; he didn't set the record straight and let the lie fester.

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

So why wouldn't the Starks think about what will happen after the war is won and that maybe the arrangement Jon made was not the best modality for alliance with Daenerys?

This is why the marriage question should have been suggested already, certainly by Tyrion, whose been talking about marriage and alliances and heirs since season 6. The only reason I think they haven’t is because they want the audience to see that Jon and Dany are truly in love with each other to capitalize on maximum angst and drama, instead of making it seem like just got married for strategy. Because really, a marriage Alliance would have solved everything, Jon arriving married to the dragon queen, as king in the north, should have given his people all the assurances that they would be in a good condition after the war, and Dany would have secured one of the strongest kingdoms without so much suspicion leveled at her . But that makes it to easy!!! 😂😂🙄 we need drama drama drama

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[anamika]

Do people remember the Thenn at Hardhome, when Jon talked to the Wildlings about putting aside their 8000 year old feud?

Quote

JON: I’m not asking you to forget your dead. I’ll never forget mine. I lost 50 brothers the night that Mance attacked the wall. But I’m asking you to think about your children now. They’ll never have children of their own if we don’t band together. The Long Night is coming and the dead come with it. No clan can stop them. The free folk can’t stop them. The Night’s Watch can’t stop them. And all the southern kings can’t stop them. Only together, all of us, and even then it might not be enough, but at least then we’ll give the fuckers a fight.

LOBODA: Keep that new life you want to give us. Keep your glass, King Crow. Soon as you get on his ships they’re gonna slit your throats and dump your bodies to the bottom of the Shivering Sea. That’s our enemy. That has always been our enemy.

Remember what happened to him when the AOTD attacked? He realized what Jon was saying and fought WITH him instead of against him.

I guess people in the North actually have to see the AOTD in episode 3 before we get anything sensible out of them.

[nikma]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This is why the marriage question should have been suggested already, certainly by Tyrion, whose been talking about marriage and alliances and heirs since season 6. 

As someone said, marriage didn't solve problems between Lannisters and Tyrells. Or Lannisters and Martells. And so on.

Because question who rules the seven kingdoms remains. Would Jon be just her spouse or real ruler of Seven Kingdoms?

[nikma]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

. THAT's the point. That what Jon and Dany are doing - temporarily put aside enmities and band together to defeat a more horrifying threat - mankind being wiped out.

It's not temporary if he recognized her as a queen. He made a decision that could have consequences in next 300 years. 

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

Remember what happened to him when the AOTD attacked? He realized what Jon was saying and fought WITH him instead of against him.

I guess people in the North actually have to see the AOTD in episode 3 before we get anything sensible out of them.

Did Jon waltz in as their new king though, one they didnt even get a chance to elect?

Emilia says she starts at Winterfell "Cocksure and confident." If so thats a bad sign. I think she might be thinking this is a Torrhen situation, when Jon doesn't have that much power to control his Lords as he did. 

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

It's not temporary if he recognized her as a queen. He made a decision that could have consequences in next 300 years. 

Because Dany is not Cersei. Dany has not been attacking House Stark for 7 seasons. Dany has not killed any Starks or North men. Jon can see that Dany has put the needs of the people above her personal ambitions - making her a good leader. Dany saved his life and she is pledging to defend a place and a people he loves very much. Jon also loves Dany - these things make him bend the knee.

So he has made this decision.

If the Starks have a problem with this decision, why not play nice and be nice to their important ally Dany temporarily -  fight with her and then after all this is over and if they survive - THEN argue with Jon about bending the knee after assessing their situation. If they want, they can kick Jon out and fight for their independence against Dany, Cersei and everyone.

The issue is always about why this is the central argument NOW?  When the AOTD have breached the wall and heading their way?

Edited March 26, 2019 by anamika

[nikma]

Jon made unpopular decision without consulting anyone and his fans think it is completely reasonable not only to expect from people in the North to follow that decision, but to be happy about it. 

They have any reason not to trust Jon's decision when they see that he is in love with Daenerys. Especially knowing that their last king lost a war because he fall in love.

At the end of the day, I think they will accept Daenerys, but their reaction is completely reasonable.

It's not like they are trying to destroy that pact in E1 or anything similar.

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, nikma said:

As someone said, marriage didn't solve problems between Lannisters and Tyrells. Or Lannisters and Martells. And so on.

Because question who rules the seven kingdoms remains. Would Jon be just her spouse or real ruler of Seven Kingdoms?

🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ 

Really? REALLY?!! Who cares? If the North are that fucking nitpicking screw them. In this hypothetical scenario, They literally get their king as co ruler of the seven kingdoms, for the first time ever it looks like, and they also start bitching about who wears the pants in the family? This is what I mean about bullshit. They were content under Robert Baratheon with a Stark as Warden, and didn’t make a peep with A Bolton as Warden under a Lannister King. They finally get the king they chose as Ruler of the 7K and they still aren’t happy cause his wife is more powerful? If things works out after the war for the Dawn and they defeat Cersei, Chances are Sansa is permanently installed as Lady of winterfell , and no one bothers them ever again. Best case scenario she’s made Queen in the North being his cousin and raised as his sister and they are granted  their independence. 

Don't forget, there’s still Cersei to contend with, which if they lose, will be their ruler.

i mean come on. Plenty of us have conceded that there are valid concerns, but there also is a case of irrationality. If they distrust Jon so much they never should have chosen him.

and as @anamika pointed out, deal with this later . Handle the ice zombies on your door and then start fighting about your independence and who you want to rule you. And if its that’s  important, overthrow Jon and take on Cersei yourselves. But until then, insulting or being openly hostile to the woman coming to save your asses because you don’t like her is ridiculous, especially when some of the Lords were kissing the asses of the Bolton’s for “ rescuing “ them from the Greyjoy invasion. Wasn’t that one the  excuses given in season 6 as to why no one came to help in the BOTB? 

🙄 yeah but now they have a spine!

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[tangerine95]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

Jon made unpopular decision without consulting anyone and his fans think it is completely reasonable not only to expect from people in the North to follow that decision, but to be happy about it. 

They have any reason not to trust Jon's decision when they see that he is in love with Daenerys. Especially knowing that their last king lost a war because he fall in love.

At the end of the day, I think they will accept Daenerys, but their reaction is completely reasonable.

It's not like they are trying to destroy that pact in E1 or anything similar.

I do think they have a reason to trust his decision tho,or at least see it as beneficial.They're getting the help of two large armies and dragons.These are people who are currently having a problem with a lack of men and resources and Jon just solved it.

[bubble sparkly]

Maybe this is just setting the stage for Jon to easily peace out from Sansa and Arya at the end of  the season, because he recognises Dany and their baby as his main family? Whether it’s by DJ leaving it all behind and living the simple life somewhere, or by DJ being in charge in KL etc.    One can certainly understand why Jon would be more then willing to leave his annoying sisters in the dreary North to hang with Dany + baby in the South. I’m sure the love and support will be a nice change from the constant berating he receives up North! Besides, Arya and Sansa will probably be glad to see the back of Jon too.

[Colorful Mess]

Sam's suggestion to Jon that he can be king, and not Dany, sounds like the beginnings of a plot. 

Sam works behind the scenes to put people into positions who he feels are worthy, whether they want it or not. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

Because Dany is not Cersei

So what? Daenerys won't live forever. Jon gave the North to Targaryen dinasty forever. They now have every right to rule the North in the next 1000 years.

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon can see that Dany has put the needs of the people above her personal ambitions - making her a good leader

He can, but he saw that in E6 of the last season, not in E3 when he met her. It took time. He thought the same about her just like those people in WF will think in E1.

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

If the Starks have a problem with this decision, why not play nice and be nice to their important ally Dany temporarily -  fight with her and then after all this is over and if they survive - THEN argue with Jon about bending the knee?

Because there is no "then". Jon already made that decision. It's over. There won't be any discussion in the future about that. The North belongs to Targaryans. It's done. 

[nikma]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Really? REALLY?!! Who cares? If the North are that fucking nitpicking screw them.

It's not nitpicking if Jon becomes just puppet and fuckboy. What the North has in that situation then?

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

They literally get their king as co ruler of the seven kingdoms,

And who said he would be co ruler? Did Cersei rule while Robert was alive? 

5 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

.These are people who are currently having a problem with a lack of men and resources and Jon just solved it.

At what price?

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, nikma said:

Because there is no "then". Jon already made that decision. It's over. There won't be any discussion in the future about that. The North belongs to Targaryans. It's done. 

Technically, didn't the North already belong to the Targaryens? One of the "tenets" of Northern Independence vis a vis King Robb was that "we married the dragons, now the dragons are dead".

Of course, all this is moot. Westeros is not 21st century European Union. The North don't get to Westexit because the ruling minority took a vote. It's a feudal system and anything that is claimed is ultimately done by force. If the North want their Independence from the rest of Westeros (and this includes both Dany and Cersei) then they, like everyone else, have the right to literally fight for it.

Edited March 26, 2019 by ursula

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

as @anamika pointed out, deal with this later . Handle the ice zombies on your door and then start fighting about your independence and who you want to rule you. 

Again, they can't deal with that later because Jon already made that decision. That decision that will affect the future of the North in the next centuries. And he did it all alone, without consulting anyone. And he comes to WF with Daenerys clearly and completely in love with her.

And his fans are surprised that someone in the North could think that maybe that doesn't look that promising.

And what is really important here to remember is that no one is disobeying Jon's orders. They are just sceptical about his judgement. 

[tangerine95]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

It's not nitpicking if Jon becomes just puppet and fuckboy. What the North has in that situation then?

And who said he would be co ruler? Did Cersei rule while Robert was alive? 

At what price?

At the price of the north continuing to live the same life they had as part of the seven kingdoms,if they even manage to survive.And this time their chosen king continues to be warden and their new queen is coming to save them and is willing to convince them she's not a threat.Is it really that high of a price?They sure managed to stay quiet under Bolton rule and most of them even refused the Starks until the whole thing was done and Starks had the power again.

This isn't a powerful kingdom that can be independent and make it.If it's not the NK then it's Cersei and she's also more powerful.Winter is the one thing that kept them safe from her.They need alliances and have nothing to offer a queen except their allegiance.I just don't believe it makes sense or is that understandable for a kingdom in their position to act like that if they're actually aware of the situation they're in.

[Colorful Mess]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

Of course, all this is moot. Westeros is not 21st century European Union. The North don't get to Westexit because the ruling minority took a vote. It's a feudal system and anything that is claimed is ultimately done by force. If the North want their Independence from the rest of Westeros (and this includes both Dany and Cersei) then they should be prepared to fight for it like everyone else. 

That's exactly why I believe we're going to see a second Dance in S8. Dany wants all 7 kingdoms. The North wants independence. War. 

I can predict the outcome. Dorne and the North have never truly been conquered by dragons, and I bet the author wants to keep it that way. I think he sides with these two regions more than any other, because they're poor, and Dorne were written as the heroic underdogs resisting Aegon in Fire and Blood. 

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, nikma said:

It's not nitpicking if Jon becomes just puppet and fuckboy. What the North has in that situation then?

Yes Because that’s the way it works in medieval society. Kings become fuckboys to Queens. 🙄😂

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

At what price?

A price of dragons? Armies? Help? What’s the other suggestion? All this criticism leveled at Jon but what his options? He got a freaking MOUNTAIN of dragonglass to make weapons, armies and fire breathing dragons to help his people and somehow that’s still wrong because he didn’t consult them, Danys a Targaryen, she can’t be trusted in the long run, and basically he’s a lovesick fool?

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

Because there is no "then". Jon already made that decision. It's over. There won't be any discussion in the future about that. The North belongs to Targaryans. It's done. 

It’s a world ending apocalypse. There might not even be a throne. Anything can happen and if they win the war for the Dawn, it becomes a war against Cersei and if they still feel that Cersei  is a better option then the woman who just fought with them, then they deserve what they get.

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

.And this time their chosen king continues to be warden and their new queen is coming to save them and is willing to convince them she's not a threat.Is it really that high of a price?

Well she did not convince them yet. That's the point. Her coming to help means nothing. Even Boltons helped some northern houses againt Greyjoy. She needs to prove herself, like she did with Tyrion and Jon. Nothing more or less. Every character was sceptical about her before they met her.

[nikma]

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

18 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yes Because that’s the way it works in medieval society.

Yesh. That's the way. There are many examples in history where kings are just spouses and nothing more.

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

20 minutes ago, nikma said:

A price of dragons? Armies? Help? What’s the other suggestion? All

They had all that even without Jon's recognition.

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

There might not even be a throne. 

Then Daenerys should have rejected her title.

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

they still feel that Cersei  is a better option then the woman who just fought with them

She yet has to fight for them.

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

Her coming to help means nothing. Even Boltons helped some northern houses againt Greyjoy.

But doesn't that argue against the point you're making? The majority of the North supported Bolton as Warden. Besides Mormont and the other House I cant remember, none of the other Houses opposed their rule and most cited this reason (Greyjoy).

[tangerine95]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

Well she did not convince them yet. That's the point. Her coming to help means nothing. Even Boltons helped some northern houses againt Greyjoy. She needs to prove herself, like she did with Tyrion and Jon. Nothing more or less. Every character was sceptical about her before they met her.

Sure but I just think the reactions we're hearing about so far are way over the top and not making much sense and are making the north and some characters look petty and dumb.I do think the point ultimately is giving her a chance to prove herself in a big way just like she did with Jon.Guess we'll see how they handle it.

[nikma]

Just now, ursula said:

The majority of the North supported Bolton as Warden.

No. They just thought Jon and Sansa had no chance and that it was pointless waste of lives.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

st think the reactions we're hearing about so far are way over the top and not making much sense and are making the north and some characters look petty and dumb

And what do you think is over the top? In Friki's leaks they are just cold and nothing else.

Some people in the fandom act like they tried to kill her lol.

[ursula]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

No. They just thought Jon and Sansa had no chance and that it was pointless waste of lives.

Then... shouldn't they display the same pragmatism now? 

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

Then Daenerys should have rejected her title.

She might at the end. Who knows? But I love how it’s always Daenarys  who should reject her crown and submit herself. Apparently, it’s not enough to bring aid and dragons and her armies. It’s not enough to rescue The guys in the wight hunt. Apparently in order for anyone to take her seriously she has to come barefoot and  submissive, walking three steps behind Jon , head bowed and vowing on her knees before the northern lords that she is not a threat, all she has belongs to Jon now, she only comes to serve and protect and be an obedient woman. Then she can die in childbirth , after birthing an heir , and Jon can be crowned King, with Rhaegal beside him  😂🙄

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[Colorful Mess]

As a Jon fan I'd really rather he not turn into Robb or Ned, but worse. Because then he would get special treatment from the story by surviving and having everything work out perfectly. I want him to face consequences just like every other character. I don't want it to be easy for him.

This show is replete with characters making deals with people for an army, Cersei is using Euron and whoring out her body for him apparently, Sansa used Littlefinger, and Jon himself had to try to use Roose Bolton.

Not saying Dany is as bad as all those people but it would answer the question of, "did he bend the knee for duty or for love?" clearly.

My preference for him is that Jon did only bend the knee because he knows it's the North's best chance. And that is, literally, the -->only<-- reason why he did it.

[ursula]

Just now, GraceK said:

But I love how it’s always Daenarys  who should reject her crown and submit herself.

Lord/Lady ---insert House--- of ---insert Castle--- are all titles.

If the Northern Lords are so big on Independence... maybe they can lead by example by giving Independence to their serfs and underlings who didn't elect them as their Blue-Blooded Lord and Masters and probably feel as much resentment towards them as they feel towards Dany with far more justification? 

[nikma]

Lol.  No.

But if titles and lands are not important any more because AOTD, why only the Starks are criticized when they do care about politics but Dany still thinking about her political position is completely acceptable and normal?

Everyone still cares about politics and they should, because that's what makes this story different and interesting. 

If we had alien invasion in our own world I hope that you don't really believe that all differences would be forgotten?

And why Jon did not recognize Daenerys as the queen when he met her?

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

And why Jon did not recognize Daenerys as the queen when he met her?

He actually did recognize her as a Queen, and gave her the respect of Your Grace. He certainly didn’t recognize Cersei’s claim. He just refused to demote himself.

[nikma]

Just now, GraceK said:

He actually did recognize her as a Queen, and gave her the respect of Your Grace.

You know what I meant.Why he didn't give the northern crown to her the moment he met her?

[ursula]

Because D & D didn't want to depict Jon Snow, the Designated Hero, bending the knee for a woman. Which is why we never actually see Jon literally bending the knee to Dany.

ETA: In the end, it all comes down to bad writing. You asked:

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

why only the Starks are criticized when they do care about politics but Dany still thinking about her political position is completely acceptable and normal?

But the problem is that they're not being political. They're being petty. Politics is recognizing there are no permanent friends or enemies, just permanent interests. (Paraphrasing. I will cite whoever said this later).

If the North+Starks were being political, they won't antagonize the defacto General of the Army they need to survive before she's won the war for them. After the Battle of Dawn + Whatever Battle Against Cersei is fought, they can hash out the particulars of Northern Independence and figure out if they can get it, or if not, if they can get a good bargain of their vassal-dom. They can negotiate marriage terms and lines of succession. They can plan assassination attempts. 

After.

That they're not doing this but concentrating on stuff like if Jon knelt out of love or duty is not politics. It's not logical. It's not even consistent. (re: what we just talked about wrt to the Bolton "rule" of the North and the Northern Lords showing pragmatism about that sorry state of affairs that they appear to have completely lost now). 

It's just... bad writing. 

Most of the frustrations with the characters and plots are because of the writing being ... frankly, ridiculous. 

(Another example: the "good game recognizes good game" reason why the Lannister brothers are not immediately treated with suspicion as spies or at least hostages when Cersei violates their Pax.)

Edited March 26, 2019 by ursula

[anamika]

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

Again, they can't deal with that later because Jon already made that decision. That decision that will affect the future of the North in the next centuries. And he did it all alone, without consulting anyone. And he comes to WF with Daenerys clearly and completely in love with her.

As LF said, Jon was elected King. He can be deposed - which Sansa was seriously considering last season. And now Jon is going to be revealed as a Targaryen. So why stick to his oaths?

They can kick him out because he's a Targ and then fight for independence against Dany and Cersei  if that's what they want.

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, nikma said:

But if titles and lands are not important any more because AOTD, w

I never said they weren’t , I said it wasnt the priority, and that Jon and Dany BOTH have recognized it and put it aside for now. Dany has literally stopped her quest for the throne to deal with this yet is still seen as a monster ( I’m not saying by you ) but by some of the fanbase for being willing to continue her pursuit AFTER the war is won. Yet Cersei is the  actual monster who didn’t even put her ambition on hold and is actively trying to kill everyone. I never said the North shouldn’t  care about their titles or independence, just that they should wait until after this threat is dealt with. Then go back to the regular scheduled programming of backstabbing politics if you want and normal war! But now is not the time.

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[nikma]

Jon Snow in S7 knew about AOTD better than anyone else. And he knew that Daenerys has dragons and big army and he still refused to bend the knee. He even wanted to return to the North without her.

He only recognized her when he saw with his own eyes that she is worthy.

And now in S8 we have the same situation only on the larger scale and some fans are outraged? Why? 

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

And what do you think is over the top? In Friki's leaks they are just cold and nothing else.

Some people in the fandom act like they tried to kill her lol.

Well it's been foreshadowed she might have an assassination attempt on her in the north so who knows lol.

I think the hostile vibe is gonna be obvious.In the leaks from friki we don't have the details and it's only the first but he makes it pretty clear they're rejecting her.I mean Sansa thinks Jon only bend the knee for love,acts dismissive enough that Jon asks Arya for help,Sam apparently thinks she's undeserving and wants Jon to become king over her.If previous council meetings when Jon did something they didn't like are anything to go by I can imagine how the one with Dany will look.They were willing to overthrow Jon just for staying on Dragonstone for longer then they liked while trying to negotiate for help. I find that all over the top for people who should be happy to receive help that's going to give them a chance at survival.

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

, I said it wasnt the priority, and that Jon and Dany BOTH have recognized it and put it aside for now

My point is that I really don't see any difference between Jon's relationship with Dany in S7 and Northern relationship with her in S8.

To Jon northern independence was more important than Dany's military help even in E5. He wanted to return north without her.

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

mean Sansa thinks Jon only bend the knee for lov

But that's true. Why he bend the knee in E6 and not E5 or E4?

4 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Sam apparently thinks she's undeserving 

Well, Jon is his best friend and Daenerys killed his brother.