Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[glowbug]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

While the actors might be jocular in interviews, I do think that the Tarlys (or, at least, Dickon, who Sam canonically seemed to like) will be an issue in Season 8.  I don’t think it’s going to lead to a Sam betrayal or anything, but the way Season 7 handled the information seems like it was intended as setup for a later reveal.

But then again, this show ignores seeming setups all the time, so *shrugs*

I agree that the reason they saved Sam finding out about the Tarleys is so he could find out while in the same location as Dany. I think he’ll be sad about his brother and there may be short term angst between him and Dany but I don’t think it’s going to amount to much. I think John Bradley was being more flippant about it than Sam will be but I do notice that the actors tend to defend their characters’ positions so if this was going to be a huge deal for Sam I think Bradly would offer some justification for Sam’s outrage. Not that he’d give away anything major but he would say something about Dany and Sam needing to resolve it or it will cause some tension or something vague like that. 

[anamika]

4 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think John Bradley was being more flippant about it than Sam will be but I do notice that the actors tend to defend their characters’ positions so if this was going to be a huge deal for Sam I think Bradly would offer some justification for Sam’s outrage.

Pretty much this.

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

While the actors might be jocular in interviews, I do think that the Tarlys (or, at least, Dickon, who Sam canonically seemed to like) will be an issue in Season 8.  I don’t think it’s going to lead to a Sam betrayal or anything, but the way Season 7 handled the information seems like it was intended as setup for a later reveal.

I formed my opinion that it's not going to be a big deal after listening to John Bradley not really care about Dany burning the Tarlys - if it was something that was an important plot point next season, where Sam held a grudge against Dany, I would think that John would atleast interject and say something like - well they are still his family at the end of the day. The conversation was about Sam finally realizing where he belonged or what he wanted to be. Which then led to the Tarlys - whom he characterized as an abusive family. He did not make any distinctions between individual family members. Only that he finally realizes his family was shit and he leaves them forever. Interviewer mentions that they got burned anyway. And John laughs along and says that it's pretty much what they deserved.  Surely if there was script for next season where Sam is genuinely pissed off at Dany, then he would have talked about how his brother and mother were different or about how that sucks for Sam or something. His total nonchalance about them and his statements about how the Tarlys were really awful people leads me to believe that this is something that won't even be brought up or mentioned next season. Sam's experience at Horn Hill was about him closing that chapter in his life according to John. This is also one reason I don't see Sam becoming Lord of the Reach either. As per John,  Sam currently only wants to be there for 3 people (Gilly, baby Sam and Jon).

It's like Sophie Turner talking about how Jon is an idiot unfit for ruling before season 7 to support Sansa's actions against Jon last season. Or Peter Dinklage interjecting with 'not really' when Jimmy Kimmel calls Tyrion one of the good guys. Actors tend to try to support their character's actions and if Sam was going to be angry with Dany about this, I would think John Bradley would not have said that they deserved it. He was in essence siding with Dany here while his character does the opposite next season.

I would also think that the show itself has identified different levels of conflict according to the magnitude of what was done. Davos wanting to kill Melisandre for what she did to Shireen. What will Davos and Jon do if Mel turns up to help. Davos grudgingly working with Tyrion despite Tyrion blowing up his beloved son with Wildfire. Two different acts against people who Davos loved. Maybe it's because Davos recognizes that one was war and the other was not.

It could be that Sam moving on from what Dany did and working with her is a symbol/sign of people having to work together against a common enemy. Sam has been known to convince people - like Jon's election to LC. Maybe he uses the Tarly burnings to tell the Northerners that,  if he can work with Dany, why can't the rest of the North?

Edited December 4, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

Found an interesting post. Fewlist:

"Well I'll just tell you all that yeah it is true. Bran becomes the defacto ruler after he disposes of Dany's army. He leads them into a trap and gets rid of them. But really it becomes Bran/Sansa/Arya as the trifecta. The finagling by Bran/Arya/Sansa against Dany is going to be an interesting reaction. Jon's a broken man. The season is not at all like anything most are expecting. From what I know I bet most hate it. Bye."

Edited December 4, 2018 by WindyNights

[anamika]

lol, that's nothing but what another fleaker said a few months ago. I suspect we will get more of this as the King Bran speculation spreads. I like how Bran is not allowed to be King alone in these leaks but that Sansa and Arya are always tacked on with him. Which is funny given that the same betting odds for Sansa sitting on the Iron Throne is worse than even the Night King! 

[Happy Harpy]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

I would also think that the show itself has identified different levels of conflict according to the magnitude of what was done. Davos wanting to kill Melisandre for what she did to Shireen. What will Davos and Jon do if Mel turns up to help. Davos grudgingly working with Tyrion despite Tyrion blowing up his beloved son with Wildfire. Two different acts against people who Davos loved. Maybe it's because Davos recognizes that one was war and the other was not.

It could be that Sam moving on from what Dany did and working with her is a symbol/sign of people having to work together against a common enemy. Sam has been known to convince people - like Jon's election to LC. Maybe he uses the Tarly burnings to tell the Northerners that,  if he can work with Dany, why can't the rest of the North?

It could also be that Davos has always been a man who sees the big picture and has mostly placed the general interest above his own; since he waited for the BotB to be over before he confronted Melisandre. But I guess he's seen as "Jon's man" or a "Southerner" by the Northern morons like Glover, and probably they wouldn't listen to him so that's where Sam could play a role. Sam is also a Southerner, of course, he's also a man of the NW with a wife and a baby, so I don't know how much credit those Northerners would grant him.

Davos and Sam would be an invicible team of diplomats, if Westeros need some in the future. I do hope, nevertheless, that their talents won't be needed and the lords grumbling won't be an open rebellion after they saw the combo dragons/Unsullied/Dothraki. It would make them blind, and not merely short-sighted.

36 minutes ago, anamika said:

lol, that's nothing but what another fleaker said a few months ago. I suspect we will get more of this as the King Bran speculation spreads. I like how Bran is not allowed to be King alone in these leaks but that Sansa and Arya are always tacked on with him. Which is funny given that the same betting odds for Sansa sitting on the Iron Throne is worse than even the Night King! 

Those so-called fleaks reek of sour grapes. Trolls trying to frighten other fans into thinking that "everyone will hate it" because they realized they probably won't get what they want. If Bran ends on the throne I doubt it will be as a vegetable unable to think or act for himself, nobody would call that "satisfying". Even if he isn't my favorite, I really hope there's a clue about his role in the trailer, when a trailer finally drops. First images in the end-of-the-year HBO reel, I guess.

It's true that S6 and S7 went in general pretty well for the "good" guys after S5 was so dark, so I'm expecting some "NOOOO!" moments in S8. But, again, not an ending that would be apocalyptic or devastating.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Found an interesting post. Fewlist:

"Well I'll just tell you all that yeah it is true. Bran becomes the defacto ruler after he disposes of Dany's army. He leads them into a trap and gets rid of them. But really it becomes Bran/Sansa/Arya as the trifecta. The finagling by Bran/Arya/Sansa against Dany is going to be an interesting reaction. Jon's a broken man. The season is not at all like anything most are expecting. From what I know I bet most hate it. Bye."

There are Unsullied at the Dragonpit scene in 8x06, though. As @anamika pointed out, this is more or less what /mutedorange said a few months ago.

[Smad]

It just seems so nonsensical to make Bran the king. Or even the trifecta of Stark children. Bran is a robot, Arya is a psycho who never wanted anything to do with politics...these two as they have been build up especially in S7 make the least likely candidates for rulers of anything. Unless they pull a 180 on both of them, it just makes no sense. I don't think Sansa wants anything beyond a place to call home where she feels safe, she's kinda had her fill of palace intrigue.

Just make it 7 independent Kingdoms and the problem solves itself. Or at least a government with a representative of each Kingdom where every Kingdom still retains autonomy. After all the point is to rid Westeros of monarchy/feudalism which was the cause of so much suffering.

[anamika]

50 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There are Unsullied at the Dragonpit scene in 8x06, though. As @anamika pointed out, this is more or less what /mutedorange said a few months ago.

And from mutedorange post history he/she says that another fleaker is right in that there are no major battles in KL, no Northerners and just small skirmishes in KL and that the meeting in the dragonpit was Jon's coronation/funeral and the council choosing a new king.  I really don't think Kit filmed in Seville so that's most probably wrong. And we know Northerners are there in the KL battle and it's a big one.

And I agree with @Happy Harpy, that if Bran does become King, he does so as an active agent in full body and mind. Bran does have a proper political arc in the books and has ruling experience and we could see him come back to the old Bran next season.

The question remains as to why the South would accept these Northerners as rulers of Westeros. We constantly hear about Northern independence blah blah... Why should the South accept some Stark kids as rulers of the south? Why would Highgarden, Dorne, Iron Islands, the Stormlands etc. be okay with these strange Northerners ruling over them?

The Starks could take the throne by right of conquest. But do they have the armies and men to defeat all the other houses? As Jon said they have less than 10,000 men including the Vale. And a lot of these guys will most probably die fighting against the WW.

Or does Bran just convince everyone he is the best option because he's a greenseer and very powerful.

Bookwise, I still think Bran has best chances of being Warden of the North/Lord of WF - that's where all the weirwoods and powerful Godswood is and I just don't see Bran leaving WF again. But we do have him in the dragonpit in episode 6 - so it looks like he does go south. In which case all bets are off.

[nikma]

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

he question remains as to why the South would accept these Northerners as rulers of Westeros. We constantly hear about Northern independence blah blah... Why should the South accept some Stark kids as rulers of the south? Why would Highgarden, Dorne, Iron Islands, the Stormlands etc. be okay with these strange Northerners ruling over them?

Because he saved the world.

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, nikma said:

Because he saved the world.

Then what's the point of Jon and Dany if they don't have anything to do with defeating the WW or ruling the 7K?  Bran would then arguably be the most important character in A Song of Ice and Fire having defeated the WW, saving the world and ending up ruling Westeros. 

[Smad]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Then what's the point of Jon and Dany if they don't have anything to do with defeating the WW or ruling the 7K?  Bran would then arguably be the most important character in A Song of Ice and Fire having defeated the WW, saving the world and ending up ruling Westeros. 

They have to do something important with him. It's been 7 freaking Seasons and nothing. He even sucks as an exposition tool as seen in S7, though it might just be that D&D don't have a handle on the magical characters. But something has to give, he's been useless for 7 Seasons. So far all he has achieved is getting loads of people killed and his family in trouble because of his shitty behavior. It doesn't take anything away from Jon or Dany if Bran uses his abilities to aid. Like using his greensight to track the movement of the AotD or his warging (controlling Viserion or WW or even NK even if temporary). Jon and Dany can still be action heroes.

[Leila6]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

It just seems so nonsensical to make Bran the king. Or even the trifecta of Stark children. Bran is a robot, Arya is a psycho who never wanted anything to do with politics...these two as they have been build up especially in S7 make the least likely candidates for rulers of anything. Unless they pull a 180 on both of them, it just makes no sense. I don't think Sansa wants anything beyond a place to call home where she feels safe, she's kinda had her fill of palace intrigue.

I fully agree with this. If Bran really does end up “king” with Arya and Sansa, it would be deeply unsatisfying and illogical. What’s the point of having characters like Dany and Jon learn to rule, to figure out their tax policies, as GRRM wants, if an omniscient, robotic being is the endgame ruler? How is that narratively fulfilling? Why would “That’s not me,” trained assassin Arya do an about-face (hehe) and want to play politics? Much has been made about Sansa as a power player (in the show at least), but the true thrust of her character arc on the show is about embracing her Starkness and reclaiming her northern identity. But she’s going to end up as the power behind the throne in the backbiting south? It all makes no sense to me, and if that’s how they end it, they’re going to have to do a lot of building up to it in the very short time they have left, which doesn’t seem achievable.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Then what's the point of Jon and Dany if they don't have anything to do with defeating the WW or ruling the 7K?  Bran would then arguably be the most important character in A Song of Ice and Fire having defeated the WW, saving the world and ending up ruling Westeros. 

Maybe he is. 

 

33 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

I fully agree with this. If Bran really does end up “king” with Arya and Sansa, it would be deeply unsatisfying and illogical. What’s the point of having characters like Dany and Jon learn to rule, to figure out their tax policies, as GRRM wants, if an omniscient, robotic being is the endgame ruler? How is that narratively fulfilling? Why would “That’s not me,” trained assassin Arya do an about-face (hehe) and want to play politics? Much has been made about Sansa as a power player (in the show at least), but the true thrust of her character arc on the show is about embracing her Starkness and reclaiming her northern identity. But she’s going to end up as the power behind the throne in the backbiting south? It all makes no sense to me, and if that’s how they end it, they’re going to have to do a lot of building up to it in the very short time they have left, which doesn’t seem achievable.

Maisie did say that she had to go back to the character's beginnings to make sense of her ending.

I'm guessing she went to the convo she had with Ned:

 

So I could see Arya staying put to become a political player same with Sansa.

Poorquentyn did say years ago that he believes Jon and Dany are going to die and the Starks rule in a post-Dawn society so some people at least thought it was plausible and embedded within the series:

PQ: "Well, “heir” in the sense of who’s going to be rebuilding the world post-Dawn, and I think that’s Sansa, Arya, and Bran because they spend the second act as apprentices, which is a very next-generation-of-leaders thing to be doing in the second act. (As opposed to Jon and Dany, who spend the second act growing increasingly disgusted with what leadership demands of them, and increasingly unable to be happy or indeed stable within its confines"

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Leila6 said:

But she’s going to end up as the power behind the throne in the backbiting south?

There’s no more or less politicking in the southern kingdoms compared to the North.

While all of the Starks have a Northern identity, that doesn’t mean they aren’t meant to be involved in the wider world (particularly one that is going to need a lot of work to improve when the series is other).

[Smad]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Maisie did say that she had to go back to the character's beginnings to make sense of her ending.

I'm guessing she went to the convo she had with Ned:

But that conversation is specifically about Arya NOT being that kind of girl. Not wanting to be that kind of girl. So that doesn't really make sense IMO. 'That's not me.'

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Poorquentyn did say years ago that he believes Jon and Dany are going to die and the Starks rule in a post-Dawn society so some people at least thought it was plausible and embedded within the series:

PQ: "Well, “heir” in the sense of who’s going to be rebuilding the world post-Dawn, and I think that’s Sansa, Arya, and Bran because they spend the second act as apprentices, which is a very next-generation-of-leaders thing to be doing in the second act. (As opposed to Jon and Dany, who spend the second act growing increasingly disgusted with what leadership demands of them, and increasingly unable to be happy or indeed stable within its confines"

But if that was years ago I'm sure the person thought these characters would be much more like their book counterpart. Neither Bran nor Arya are fit to be among society, much less being rulers of anything. Bran isn't even Bran anymore, Brandon Stark died. That's what we were told last Season. He's not just suddenly going to stop being the 3ER. If they just reverse Branbot to human, then what was that stupid S7 storyline about. If they planned to make him King all along and have him somehow regain some humanity (as King he really needs some of that) then all this Branbot stuff was useless.

Arya is going to need years to heal. If that's even possible. As she was when we last saw her, her idea of diplomacy was to cut off heads. Not exactly a good way to rule, unless you are Ramsey Bolton or Joffrey Baratheon. She needs to find her humanity again too before she is of any use. Sansa again I can only see rebuilding WF to have a home and ruling it so her and her family can be safe.

As for Jon and Dany. Jon has never been happy and even less happy to rule, so no change there. Dany hasn't given any indication that she has any moral dilemmas or that anything can persuade her from her goal of the IT. Except death of course. She still is set on her goal to rule.

[MrsR]

On 12/3/2018 at 2:32 PM, Minneapple said:

Yeah. I mean I figure there was a reason they had Dany be like "TARLYS HEY TARLYS, YEAH, YOU TARLYS, YOU MUST SUBMIT OR DRACARYS." Plus then the other maesters at the Citadel were like "Let's not tell Sam because it will be hilarious if he finds out later." So they make a point to show the Tarly home, have Dany burn the Tarlys, then have Sam not find out...and then next year Sam finds out and is all "My dad and brother are dead let's move on!" It makes no sense and yet I wouldn't put it past the writers.

Here's the other reason. Because Sam will now be elevated to Lord Tarly. And as such he will be an ally and an adviser to whoever sits on the Iron Throne. What other future would Sam have, as a Night Watch reject and a citadel dropout, at the end of the series. He's going to be the eventual Chronicler of the events and being Lord Tarly will insure that it is well, a best seller!   No actually it will give it credibility. It simply would not have sufficed to have a report that the Tarly's had been killed in a battle than to have shown what utter twits they were and that they were most assuredly dead. The Tarly's had to die in order to elevate Sam and so why not make it interesting and have it serve another aspect of the story, Dany's determination. 

I'm more interested in how Heart's Bane will be used than pondering the Tarly revenge theory.

Why are we looking for betrayers under every rug and behind every tapestry? 

Edited December 4, 2018 by MrsR

[nikma]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Then what's the point of Jon and Dany if they don't have anything to do with defeating the WW or ruling the 7K?

Deconstruction of tropes™

[Happy Harpy]

https://mashable.com/article/night-king-actor-game-of-thrones-battle-season-eight/?europe=true#b5U7iJGw6aqw

Confirmed: one hour battle episode in 8x03.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But that conversation is specifically about Arya NOT being that kind of girl. Not wanting to be that kind of girl. So that doesn't really make sense IMO. 'That's not me.'

But if that was years ago I'm sure the person thought these characters would be much more like their book counterpart. Neither Bran nor Arya are fit to be among society, much less being rulers of anything. Bran isn't even Bran anymore, Brandon Stark died. That's what we were told last Season. He's not just suddenly going to stop being the 3ER. If they just reverse Branbot to human, then what was that stupid S7 storyline about. If they planned to make him King all along and have him somehow regain some humanity (as King he really needs some of that) then all this Branbot stuff was useless.

Arya is going to need years to heal. If that's even possible. As she was when we last saw her, her idea of diplomacy was to cut off heads. Not exactly a good way to rule, unless you are Ramsey Bolton or Joffrey Baratheon. She needs to find her humanity again too before she is of any use. Sansa again I can only see rebuilding WF to have a home and ruling it so her and her family can be safe.

As for Jon and Dany. Jon has never been happy and even less happy to rule, so no change there. Dany hasn't given any indication that she has any moral dilemmas or that anything can persuade her from her goal of the IT. Except death of course. She still is set on her goal to rule.

Sansa, Arya and Bran can each cover any of the flaws that the other person has.

 

Someone today just posted this essay:

[Eyes High]

20 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

https://mashable.com/article/night-king-actor-game-of-thrones-battle-season-eight/?europe=true#b5U7iJGw6aqw

Confirmed: one hour battle episode in 8x03.

I don't know how I feel about an episode that's just one long action sequence, personally (and comments from cast and crew have made it sound as if 8x03 is just pure, nonstop action). I mean, I love action movies, but if I wanted to watch The Raid, I would just watch The Raid, you know? We only have six episodes left, and now we know that one of them will be spent trying to set some sort of record for Biggest TV Battle Ever. Is that really the best use of the show's remaining time?

Edited December 4, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

36 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

https://mashable.com/article/night-king-actor-game-of-thrones-battle-season-eight/?europe=true#b5U7iJGw6aqw

Confirmed: one hour battle episode in 8x03.

This must be the NK's attack on Winterfell with an epic dragon battle between Dany and the NK, not the Golden Company attacking Winterfell as previously speculated. Do Dany and Jon lose and flee to King's Landing? Or does the NK flee before they can defeat him? In any case, it sounds amazing.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SimoneS

[Smad]

52 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa, Arya and Bran can each cover any of the flaws that the other person has.

Being dead and being a psycho aren't 'flaws'. Those are serious character problems D&D have created that makes it near impossible for them to match up with GRRM's vision (if the Stark trifecta ruling is his vision). Bran Stark literally can't become King of the Ashes because Bran Stark is DEAD. They have said it several times on the show last Season. That is something they can't take back. And since they knew how S8 would end when they wrote S7, they should not have made such proclamations. All they had to do was write a disconnected Bran who had trouble adjusting from information overload but they didn't. Arya's preference for murder and head chopping and body part pies isn't something that is going to be overcome just like that, it's a natural instinct for her to murder. Which they also should have known, hence they should have started writing Arya an arc that starts bringing her back from the darkness in S7+8.

I don't care that GRRM and D&D think that a perfect ruler would be someone who is beyond human. Humans don't respond to something like that. Humans want someone well, human. Someone who can empathize with what they go through or can relate or at least understand. If someone just casually and without emotions told a Lord how beautiful their daughter looked when her husband raped her...who is going to go for that? Being beyond human might be good in some areas, quite a lot actually. But someone who talks to you without any humanity? That won't go well.

Might as well let the Night King win. Why fight the guy who is essentially the same as Bran and stop him from taking over Westeros when you end up putting the same guy on the throne anyway. That's just stupid.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Smad

[Wouter]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This must be the NK's attack on Winterfell with an epic dragon battle between Dany and the NK, not the Golden Company attacking Winterfell as previously speculated. Do Dany and Jon lose and flee to King's Landing? Or does the NK flee before they can defeat him? 

The amount of survivors there must be among the main characters - as the filming in Seville indicates, even regardless of claims by Friki and/or Boatsexbaby - seems to say that the NK loses the battle. KL may be his last attempt to win by attempting to access a ready supply of people to be potentially wightified, after the fighting in/around Winterfell didn't go the way he wanted.

While it is possible that the survivors escape through secret tunnels, it seems unlikely to me unless there is a battle in Winterfell and a separate battle involving Dany. I guess at least one battle has to be won or everyone is toast. 

We're almost sure that the Dany/Jon alliance emerges victorious in the end, which would indicate they cannot lose the vast majority of their troops in Winterfell.

[GraceK]

14 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Found an interesting post. Fewlist:

"Well I'll just tell you all that yeah it is true. Bran becomes the defacto ruler after he disposes of Dany's army. He leads them into a trap and gets rid of them. But really it becomes Bran/Sansa/Arya as the trifecta. The finagling by Bran/Arya/Sansa against Dany is going to be an interesting reaction. Jon's a broken man. The season is not at all like anything most are expecting. From what I know I bet most hate it. Bye."

So Bran just up and decides to betray Jon, murder Dany and her army, and Sansa and Arya are completely on board and are like Threesome? Totes cool Jon sucks anyway! 😎 that’s the stupidest thing I ever heard . 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 it’s even written like someone trying to troll people, especially with the “ yeah  everyone’s gonna hate it, Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah bye!” 

Edited December 4, 2018 by GraceK

[WindyNights]

Just now, GraceK said:

So Bran just up and decides to betray Jon, murder Dany and her army, and Sansa and Arya are completely on board and are like Threesome? Totes cool Jon sucks anyway! 😎 that’s the stupidest thing I ever heard . 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think the idea is that Bran ignites KL and takes Dany's army with the AOTD and then the Starks steal the throne from Dany. Idk if he meant murder. It's some random poster though. I just wanted to see what you guys would say, haha.

[WindyNights]

16 minutes ago, Smad said:

Being dead and being a psycho aren't 'flaws'. Those are serious character problems D&D have created that makes it near impossible for them to match up with GRRM's vision (if the Stark trifecta ruling is his vision). Bran Stark literally can't become King of the Ashes because Bran Stark is DEAD. They have said it several times on the show last Season. That is something they can't take back. And since they knew how S8 would end when they wrote S7, they should not have made such proclamations. All they had to do was write a disconnected Bran who had trouble adjusting from information overload but they didn't. Arya's preference for murder and head chopping and body part pies isn't something that is going to be overcome just like that, it's a natural instinct for her to murder. Which they also should have known, hence they should have started writing Arya an arc that starts bringing her back from the darkness in S7+8.

I don't care that GRRM and D&D think that a perfect ruler would be someone who is beyond human. Humans don't respond to something like that. Humans want someone well, human. Someone who can empathize with what they go through or can relate or at least understand. If someone just casually and without emotions told a Lord how beautiful their daughter looked when her husband raped her...who is going to go for that? Being beyond human might be good in some areas, quite a lot actually. But someone who talks to you without any humanity? That won't go well.

 Sansa Stark would work as the face. You don't talk to Bran, you talk to Sansa. And Arya can be the person that disposes of opponents. That's what I meant by they cover each other's weaknesses.

It doesn't ultimately matter on whether you think Bran is dead or not. He's part of the TER anyway according to himself. 

And Isaac mentions that Bran's in there still too: 

 

And they brought me the “Watchmen” comic, and said, “Look, the kind of vibe we’re going for is this Dr. Manhattan type. Kind of slightly removed and vacant, but wise and all-knowing.” What they were keen on was to not let the performance become really boring, because when you’ve got that kind of monotonous, very plain delivery, it can end up being just a bit repetitive. So they wanted to get a bit of Bran, but within this new kind of supercomputer vibe. 

[SimoneS]

20 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The amount of survivors there must be among the main characters - as the filming in Seville indicates, even regardless of claims by Friki and/or Boatsexbaby - seems to say that the NK loses the battle. KL may be his last attempt to win by attempting to access a ready supply of people to be potentially wightified, after the fighting in/around Winterfell didn't go the way he wanted.

While it is possible that the survivors escape through secret tunnels, it seems unlikely to me unless there is a battle in Winterfell and a separate battle involving Dany. I guess at least one battle has to be won or everyone is toast. 

We're almost sure that the Dany/Jon alliance emerges victorious in the end, which would indicate they cannot lose the vast majority of their troops in Winterfell.

Okay let's say the NK loses the battle at Winterfell. Dany on Drogon and with Rhaegal and her armies and Jon defeat the NK and most of his wights are destroyed. He flies away on Viserion with his remaining White Walkers head to King's Landing to create more wights. Dany and Jon regroup and go after him. I think that Dany will lose either one or both of her dragons by the end of this so there must be another last battle at King's Landing. But does this mean that Cersei is killed by the NK or Jaime in episode 6?

Gotta to say that this all makes more sense than the speculation that Cersei sends the Golden Company to Winterfell that was flying around.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SimoneS

[Happy Harpy]

38 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know how I feel about an episode that's just one long action sequence, personally (and comments from cast and crew have made it sound as if 8x03 is just pure, nonstop action). I mean, I love action movies, but if I wanted to watch The Raid, I would just watch The Raid, you know? We only have six episodes left, and now we know that one of them will be spent trying to set some sort of record for Biggest TV Battle Ever. Is that really the best use of the show's remaining time?

Looking back, I realize that I do not care for rewatching battles, except for the S7 ones. More of my faves will be involved in the WF battle, it will make the stakes higher and engage me more, probably. Looking on the bright side, if the Northern Lords are stupid it won't be for long.

22 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This must be the NK's attack on Winterfell with an epic dragon battle between Dany and the NK, not the Golden Company attacking Winterfell as previously speculated. Do Dany and Jon lose and flee to King's Landing? Or does the NK flee before they can defeat him? In any case, it sounds amazing.

IIRC the set pictures hinted that the GC would be there (golden shields) which gave cred to the idea that the GC attacks first and the NK invites himself for the picnic. Melisandre "turning" some of the AOTD against the NK was also supposed to take place there, except it was filmed at the quarry and some other leaks said that scenes for WF and KL were filmed there. WF would be destroyed, the NK would take a blow, but the survivors would have to flee south.

Which makes me think, Melisandre was heading for Volantis. Would it be possible that she comes back with the GC, maybe with the idea of working for Ice and Fire from within their enemies' ranks?

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

hich makes me think, Melisandre was heading for Volantis. Would it be possible that she comes back with the GC, maybe with the idea of working for Ice and Fire from within their enemies' ranks?

Isn’t there an army based in Volantis that’s dedicated to the lord of light? That’s who I was betting on Melisandre coming back with. I thought she would she show up with reinforcements from the temple or something . That’s honestly why I thought she left in season 7, to come back with help. 

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

IIRC the set pictures hinted that the GC would be there (golden shields) which gave cred to the idea that the GC attacks first and the NK invites himself for the picnic. Melisandre "turning" some of the AOTD against the NK was also supposed to take place there, except it was filmed at the quarry and some other leaks said that scenes for WF and KL were filmed there. WF would be destroyed, the NK would take a blow, but the survivors would have to flee south.

Which makes me think, Melisandre was heading for Volantis. Would it be possible that she comes back with the GC, maybe with the idea of working for Ice and Fire from within their enemies' ranks?

We could get a replay of the Battle of Bastards where just the battle seems loss for Dany and Jon, Melisandre arrives with other Red Priestesses and they use their power to turn some of the AOTD against the NK. I don't know about the Golden Company. It seems to me that if Euron hires them, they are far more likely to be at King's Landing where the NK can turn them into his new foot soldiers.

I still don't get how the non-combatants like Tyrion, Davos, Sansa, etc. get to King's Landings in time for the battle there, but maybe something happens to slow down the NK.

 

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Isn’t there an army based in Volantis that’s dedicated to the lord of light? That’s who I was betting on Melisandre coming back with. I thought she would she show up with reinforcements from the temple or something . That’s honestly why I thought she left in season 7, to come back with help. 

This makes more sense than the Golden Company at Winterfell.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SimoneS

[Happy Harpy]

28 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

We could get a replay of the Battle of Bastards where just the battle seems loss for Dany and Jon, Melisandre arrives with other Red Priestesses and they use their power to turn some of the AOTD against the NK. I don't know about the Golden Company. It seems to me that if Euron hires them, they are far more likely to be at King's Landing where the NK can turn them into his new foot soldiers.

This makes more sense than the Golden Company at Winterfell.

 

I do think that the GC at WF doesn't make sense (I argued at length about it a few months ago). Yet, the unauthorized set pictures are the only leaks I believe in so I had to put water in my wine.

Quote

I still don't get how the non-combatants like Tyrion, Davos, Sansa, etc. get to King's Landings in time for the battle there, but maybe something happens to slow down the NK.

If the AOTD takes a blow and has to regroup, it can allow the survivors to escape for a while. Maybe there's a spell involved, with Bran leaning to master his powers (maybe working with Melisandre). Maybe a variation of the spell that protected the cave against the NK, so it wouldn't be a complete deux ex machina.

30 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Isn’t there an army based in Volantis that’s dedicated to the lord of light? That’s who I was betting on Melisandre coming back with. I thought she would she show up with reinforcements from the temple or something . That’s honestly why I thought she left in season 7, to come back with help. 

It's a possibility, but it would really be a BotB redux with Melisandre's troops as the Vale knights. They might lampshade it, of course.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Smad]

53 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

 Sansa Stark would work as the face. You don't talk to Bran, you talk to Sansa. And Arya can be the person that disposes of opponents. That's what I meant by they cover each other's weaknesses.

I'm sorry but that's just stupid. Not meaning you but the whole concept. You can't just crown someone King and then lock him in a tower far away from his subjects. That is never going to fly. People will eventually want face time if for no other reason than see for themselves that the King is even still alive. And Arya disposing of opponents? I thought things were supposed to change. You can't just cut the head off everyone who disagrees with you or your decisions. If I were in Westeros I would say 'screw this'. A King who can't be bothered to interact with anyone because he is above them and doesn't care. A psycho killer who murders you just for saying the wrong word. I'd be fully on board if someone were to hire an assassination squad. Since 3ER powers suck (if he needs freaking non-magical Sam to solve mysteries his powers are useless anyway), he won't see it coming.

53 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

It doesn't ultimately matter on whether you think Bran is dead or not. He's part of the TER anyway according to himself. 

And Isaac mentions that Bran's in there still too:

But it's not Bran anymore. Over and over it's been said. Brandon Stark can't be crowned King because Brandon Stark is gone. Whether he is a mix of Bran/3ER or Bran/anyone that ever existed, it doesn't matter. It's not real!Bran anymore. And I don't care much for what actors say, only thing that matters is what's on screen.

53 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

And they brought me the “Watchmen” comic, and said, “Look, the kind of vibe we’re going for is this Dr. Manhattan type. Kind of slightly removed and vacant, but wise and all-knowing.” What they were keen on was to not let the performance become really boring, because when you’ve got that kind of monotonous, very plain delivery, it can end up being just a bit repetitive. So they wanted to get a bit of Bran, but within this new kind of supercomputer vibe. 

Dr. Manhatten...kill Bran now please. Granted I've only seen the movie but this is a guy who dumped his wife (because she was starting to get old and therefor boring) and traded her in for a younger model. Who gave his wife cancer (or so they want him to believe) and didn't care. And eventually allowed a guy to drop nukes on countries because people needed such tragedy to make the world a better place. He ended up not giving a damn about the human race. For the sake of the people of Westeros, if that's who Bran is supposed to be, dispose of him quick.

And again, why bother fighting the NK when you are putting a NK on the throne anyway? NK and Bran have similar abilities (warging, greenseeing). Neither of them care about humanity because if Bran is 'beyond human' he shouldn't even be concerned for humanity at all because he's above it. NK doesn't care about humans and neither does Bran. So let the NK win, let him sit on the IT because it makes no difference.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Smad

[WindyNights]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

I'm sorry but that's just stupid. Not meaning you but the whole concept. You can't just crown someone King and then lock him in a tower far away from his subjects. That is never going to fly. People will eventually want face time if for no other reason than see for themselves that the King is even still alive. And Arya disposing of opponents? I thought things were supposed to change. You can't just cut the head off everyone who disagrees with you or your decisions. If I were in Westeros I would say 'screw this'. A King who can't be bothered to interact with anyone because he is above them and doesn't care. A psycho killer who murders you just for saying the wrong word. I'd be fully on board if someone were to hire an assassination squad. Since 3ER powers suck (if he needs freaking non-magical Sam to solve mysteries his powers are useless anyway), he won't see it coming.

But it's not Bran anymore. Over and over it's been said. Brandon Stark can't be crowned King because Brandon Stark is gone. Whether he is a mix of Bran/3ER or Bran/anyone that ever existed, it doesn't matter. It's not real!Bran anymore. And I don't care much for what actors say, only thing that matters is what's on screen.

Dr. Manhatten...kill Bran now please. Granted I've only seen the movie but this is a guy who dumped his wife (because she was starting to get old and therefor boring) and traded her in for a younger model. Who gave his wife cancer (or so they want him to believe) and didn't care. And eventually allowed a guy to drop nukes on countries because people needed such tragedy to make the world a better place. He ended up not giving a damn about the human race. For the sake of the people of Westeros, if that's who Bran is supposed to be, dispose of him quick.

And again, why bother fighting the NK when you are putting a NK on the throne anyway? NK and Bran have similar abilities (warging, greenseeing). Neither of them care about humanity because if Bran is 'beyond human' he shouldn't even be concerned for humanity at all because he's above it. NK doesn't care about humans and neither does Bran. So let the NK win, let him sit on the IT because it makes no difference.

Bran can violate your free will if he wanted to just like he did with Hodor. So he can command absolute obedience. And good luck trying to kill Bran. He can bodysnatch you if he wants and make you kill yourself. This is all real dark stuff and I don't expect the series to go there but I think it'll be implied he can do all this if he wanted to. I mean he could probably even rip Dany's dragons away from her and use them as his steed if he wanted to.

-shrugs- Then it's not real Bran. I think the point from the essay that I linked is that Westeros needs a perfect king to right the land. Humans are too fallible and prone to failing. All kings fall short of the mark.

The outline makes it clear that Branhattan cares about defeating the Others and saving humanity first and foremost. So he cares about humanity still at least. The NK just wants to kill people.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know how I feel about an episode that's just one long action sequence, personally (and comments from cast and crew have made it sound as if 8x03 is just pure, nonstop action). I mean, I love action movies, but if I wanted to watch The Raid, I would just watch The Raid, you know? We only have six episodes left, and now we know that one of them will be spent trying to set some sort of record for Biggest TV Battle Ever. Is that really the best use of the show's remaining time?

 

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Looking back, I realize that I do not care for rewatching battles, except for the S7 ones. More of my faves will be involved in the WF battle, it will make the stakes higher and engage me more, probably. Looking on the bright side, if the Northern Lords are stupid it won't be for long.

 

This is why I always say...I care a thousand times more about character development than I do about action sequences or CGI. I mean those are nice to have, and Drogon does look impressive in 60-inch 4K ultra HD, but character is where it starts and ends for me. If I don't care about the characters, I can't care who lives and dies in the battle.

The Mashable article says it's a 55-day battle condensed to one hour, so I assume they'll take breaks for battle strategy conversations and so forth. I don't think it will be a solid hour of KILLKILLKILLDESTROYDRACARYS.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

NK just wants to kill people.

As far as we know. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I think there’s more to be discovered here with his motivations that are gonna be revealed.

Edited December 4, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

I always liked action scenes in GOT far more than in Star Wars, MCU, DCEU or some other blockbusters. Only LOTR had better action scenes. For now.

 

I think they are always very creative and never repetitive. Battles in GoT are always emotional and innovative.

And if we have "end of the world" scenario, you need epic battles.

[SimoneS]

It occurs to me that another option for Sam is to become the Grand Maester and sit on the Small Council advising Jon and Dany. 

As for Heartsbane, I definitely see Sam giving it to Jorah to fight in the battles ahead. 

[WindyNights]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It occurs to me that another option for Sam is to become the Grand Maester and sit on the Small Council advising Jon and Dany. 

As for Heartsbane, I definitely see Sam giving it to Jorah to fight in the battles ahead. 

I don't see how that could happen unless we're making a big jump in the future with an epilogue.

[Meredith Quill]

I recall that somebody stated the whole point of ASOIAF/GOT was Jon and Dany but I can't recall who it was. Was it a producer/director or someone else in the know? Because if that statement is true (and I've zero reason to believe that person just made it up), it means that all this King Bran stuff doesn't make any sense thematically. Therefore, I shall reject it. Heh.

ETA: Other reasons King Bran doesn't fit - 

1. The saga as a whole is called A Song of Ice and Fire, not A Song of Wolves (yes I know the last book was going to be called A Time For Wolves but that's one book not the whole saga).
2. The cast wrap party had a dragon/wolf emblem - pretty sure that would've been just the Stark sigil if the Starklings end up 'winning' (the throne).

Edited December 5, 2018 by SilverStormm
Added stuffs

[WindyNights]

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I recall that somebody stated the whole point of ASOIAF/GOT was Jon and Dany but I can't recall who it was. Was it a producer/director or someone else in the know? Because if that statement is true (and I've zero reason to believe that person just made it up), it means that all this King Bran stuff doesn't make any sense thematically. Therefore, I shall reject it. Heh.

A director said that but that doesn't mean they'll become the endgame king and queen.  It just means that they're the core of the story. 

 

So if Dany and Jon die in the end, it doesn't  mean they're not important.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, WindyNights said:

A director said that but that doesn't mean they'll become the endgame king and queen.  It just means that they're the core of the story. 

 

So if Dany and Jon die in the end, it doesn't  mean they're not important.

Being the core of the story is kinda pointless if both lose in the end, I mean, talk about anti-climax. I think it strongly implies at least one, if not both of them, will be endgame ruler, jmo. Deffo not the Branflake.

[WindyNights]

13 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Being the core of the story is kinda pointless if both lose in the end, I mean, talk about anti-climax. I think it strongly implies at least one, if not both of them, will be endgame ruler, jmo. Deffo not the Branflake.

GRRM is the master of the anti-climax though.

[Meredith Quill]

7 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM is the master of the anti-climax though.

I doubt even he is that reckless/dumb/stupid [insert adjective of choice]. Not to mention his reputation is massively over-hyped. Besides, see *other reasons King Bran makes no sense in my earlier post.

I prefer to operate on probability vs possibility (because anything is possible), ergo, I'll follow the logical conclusion of where each shred of evidence when added up leads me and it doesn't lead me to King Bran, no way, no how. 

If anything I posit that the supposed last scene where a major character leaves is in fact, Bran, as he goes off to do more three-eyed-raven-y stuff whilst contemplating the life-story of a random log that looked semi-interesting. 

[SimoneS]

41 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I recall that somebody stated the whole point of ASOIAF/GOT was Jon and Dany but I can't recall who it was. Was it a producer/director or someone else in the know? Because if that statement is true (and I've zero reason to believe that person just made it up), it means that all this King Bran stuff doesn't make any sense thematically. Therefore, I shall reject it. Heh.

Martin told Alan Taylor, one of the directors, that the point of the story was Jon and Dany's partnership. 

[WindyNights]

7 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I doubt even he is that reckless/dumb/stupid [insert adjective of choice]. Not to mention his reputation is massively over-hyped. Besides, see *other reasons King Bran makes no sense in my earlier post.

I prefer to operate on probability vs possibility (because anything is possible), ergo, I'll follow the logical conclusion of where each shred of evidence when added up leads me and it doesn't lead me to King Bran, no way, no how. 

If anything I posit that the supposed last scene where a major character leaves is in fact, Bran, as he goes off to do more three-eyed-raven-y stuff whilst contemplating the life-story of a random log that looked semi-interesting. 

GRRM once wrote a book where he ends the story just before the final battle.

 

GRRM is no strange to weird endings.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

Deconstruction of tropes™

But is not the Starks ruling Westeros equally tropey?

I mean, we start the series getting introduced to the house that GRRM has called the heroes of the series - nice, loving family and everything. Then the villain Lannisters do evil things. The parents are killed off, the family goes through lots of hardship and the children go into hiding and train and become super heroes - super assassins, Gods, super politicians etc., come back and take revenge and then become victorious at the end. That's basically the plot of super hero comics and every Bollywood film since the sixties.

Where's the trope deconstruction here? Trope deconstruction would be the Lannisters winning the game of thrones and sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. Possibly Tyrion ruling Westeros - he has the qualifications for it.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

It occurs to me that another option for Sam is to become the Grand Maester and sit on the Small Council advising Jon and Dany.

I don't see Sam becoming a Maester either. From John's interview, I get the feeling that Sam has just given up on all kinds of patriarchal institutions - whether it be the Citadel or Lord of some house. I can see him being an adviser to someone - Jon or Bran.

Edited December 5, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

But is not the Starks ruling Westeros equally tropey?

I mean, we start the series getting introduced to the house that GRRM has called the heroes of the series - nice, loving family and everything. Then the villain Lannisters do evil things. The parents are killed off, the family goes through lots of hardship and the children go into hiding and train and become super heroes - super assassins, Gods, super politicians etc., come back and take revenge and then become victorious at the end. That's basically the plot of every Bollywood film since the sixties. 

Where's the trope deconstruction here? Trope deconstruction would be the Lannisters winning the game of thrones and sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. Possibly Tyrion ruling Westeros - he has the qualifications for it.

You're thinking of trope subversion.

"In other words, the story does not trick the player, it is the player that tricks himself."-Hideo Kojima

Trope deconstruction is about playing tropes realistically. 

"It means that all existing elements of a work are played without the Rule of Cool, Rule of Drama, Rule of Funny, and so on, to see what hidden assumptions the work uses to make its point. Sometimes you will hear this referred to as "played completely straight", and it can be thought of as taking a work more seriously on its own terms than even the work itself does, for the purpose of laying bare hidden meanings in the text."

 

It'd be something like Bran getting all this power and using it to pursue his wish fulfillment and the story playing it for the horror it is when you give a kid that much power. He'd probably turn into the Rainmaker or the Purple Man or Kylo Ren

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

It'd be something like Bran getting all this power and using it to pursue his wish fulfillment and the story playing it for the horror it is when you give a kid that much power. He'd probably turn into the Rainmaker or the Purple Man or Kylo Ren

So you are saying that GRRM is going to end the story by killing off Jon, Dany and Tyrion and making Bran into a super villain? And that's what he's been calling a LOTR-esque bittersweet ending?

[GraceK]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

So you are saying that GRRM is going to end the story by killing off Jon, Dany and Tyrion and making Bran into a super villain? And that's what he's been calling a LOTR-esque bittersweet ending?

Of course. That’ll show all those Targaryen lovers what’s what!!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 The only way to stop evil queen Dany is with even BIGGER powerful overlord Bran, and then the Stark sisters can take over and reign peacefully through their tapped out brother 🙄 

 

edited to add:: Just how many last minute villains do we have now? So far, in the last 6 episodes, we have to contend with not only the NK, Cersei, and Euron, but now also a face heel turn from Bran , Tyrion’s betrayal, and also a mad Queen Daenarys? Wow. Interesting . 😆

Edited December 5, 2018 by GraceK

[WindyNights]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

So you are saying that GRRM is going to end the story by killing off Jon, Dany and Tyrion and making Bran into a super villain? And that's what he's been calling a LOTR-esque bittersweet ending?

No, I was just saying one way to deconstruct a person having powers at a young age is by making them turn evil because absolute power has corrupted them.  

Dont think we're getting super-villain, dark lord Bran.

Just distant, bored god Bran.

More Dr. Manhattan and less Sauron.

Edited December 5, 2018 by WindyNights