Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has thus far given Sansa three options with respect to marriage - Tyrion, Hound or SweetRobin/Harry the Heir

True. With those canon options, it's no wonder Jonsa shipping is a thing.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

GRRM more than regurgitates tropes, I was rereading some of the LOTR mythology and was struck by how much of many elements of his story have been "borrowed" from Tolkien. .

Every fantasy author owes some sort of debt to Tolkien, but GRRM's pretty shameless about it.

54 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Just look at Song for Lya. Who are the main characters? Robb and Lyanna. What's the story about? How consuming love can be so much so that Lyanna dies for it by choosing to commit suicide. 

I wouldn't read too much into the names. GRRM's protagonist of The Armageddon Rag is named Sander, and he has nothing in common with ASOIAF Sandor. 

A Song for Lya is a little weird in relation to ASOIAF, but not for the reason you claim: one of the narrator's two love interests is a slender, waiflike brunette, and the other is an "auburn-haired vision," which...well...

29 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I am reasonably sure that Friki had seen pics. That would totally explain why he can correctly describe one of the characters/actors involved without knowing his name.

BoatsexBaby who has said that their Dragonpit info conflicts with Friki's identified an actor (long before Friki's "leaks" were released) who has since confirmed that he has a role in Season 8. So again, it suggests that BoatsexBaby, not Friki, is the one with inside information about S8 and that BoatsexBaby, not Friki, is right about that scene, meaning that there is no Tyrion trial. And using BoatsexBaby's confirmed information in an attempt to bolster Friki's makes no sense, because BoatsexBaby has said several times that Friki's information (especially about the Dragonpit) conflicts with theirs.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

 

BoatsexBaby who has said that their Dragonpit info conflicts with Friki's identified an actor (long before Friki's "leaks" were released)  

If I didn't miss something (which is entirely possible), it was a bit different. Friki described the actor in detail, including the costume he wore . And then BSB said: "I think I know who it is" and said the actors name.

And yes, knowing the actors name certainly probably means that BSB had some knowledge. But describing not only the looks of a totally new character but also his costume just as likely means that Friki has seen pics at the very least. Now maybe these pics were faked on purpose, but I'm basically sure he has seen some.

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has thus far given Sansa three options with respect to marriage - Tyrion, Hound or SweetRobin/Harry the Heir.

I think the show also gave her Theon as an option. The characters have a weirdly similar trajectory, both rejecting the Starks, betraying them for their other "family", and trusting the wrong people (he Ramsay, she Baelish) with dire consequences for their physical integrity. They formed a big emotional bond when they escaped together. Imo, show-wise only, Tyrion and Theon are the strongest options if she has to marry (again, not wishing that for her) whereas the Hound is a very dark horse.

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

In book fandom, Jon/Dany was considered to be the most likely outcome almost from the start. Especially after it became quite clear that Robb (Jon's main competition for being the main male hero) was doomed, sometime around Dany's (book) visions in the House of the Undying. It's only Jon getting murdered by his own men, and the associated (suspected/possible) consequences of being magically revived, that may have caused some doubt post-ADWD. That Jon, as son of Lyanna and chief defender of the realm, would join forces with Dany and her dragons was very likely.

Just in case, I wasn't talking about a military alliance (hee). "Joining forces" isn't "together as a couple". Again, Jon/Dany as a romantic couple and even more as an endgame romantic couple was considered a crackship, AFAIR. It actually still shows in the total number of works per relationship on AO3: Jon/Dany is still only 5th whereas they're quite popular now.  Of course, there are different parts in a fandom and the outlooks are probably quite distinct from one "realm" to another. I also think that after several years, many book readers involved in the online fandom went so deep into overanalyzing everything year after year that they lost perspective and began to reject many logical theories as "too easy", "too obvious", "too mainstream" etc. Last I heard, a certain number of posters on HatingTheShow.org or book-oriented forums still rejected the idea of Jon as Lyanna's son for those reasons (plus, "it's the show, it doesn't count" of course).

For me and at this point, the odds for Jon/Dany are: ruling together 55%, leaving Westeros together 25%, Dany ruling alone/Jon dead 10%, Jon ruling alone/Dany dead 5%,  both dead 5%.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

If I didn't miss something (which is entirely possible), it was a bit different. Friki described the actor in detail, including the costume he wore . And then BSB said: "I think I know who it is" and said the actors name.

And yes, knowing the actors name certainly probably means that BSB had some knowledge. But describing not only the looks of a totally new character but also his costume just as likely means that Friki has seen pics at the very least. Now maybe these pics were faked on purpose, but I'm basically sure he has seen some.

BoatsexBaby said this:

Quote

Just to clarify. I didn't put together anyone else's info. It was my own info which I had known about since May. No one else had mentioned Toby Osmond before my comment here.

I had shared Toby's name with u/EveryFckngChicken a month or so back. I didn't share it publicly prior to Friki's video, coz I didn't want to give fleakers more ammunition.

And this:

Quote

The biggest difference between our info is rooted in VFX. Friki is 100% certain that the Dragonpit scene happens towards the end of Episode 6 and will have no VFX. I am 100% certain that it happens before the Epilogue and is VFX-heavy. It's impossible for both of us to be right and I honestly doubt that they wrote 2 Dragonpit scenes in the script, considering they didn't even get permission to film in Italica till March 21st this year

And this:

Quote

I trust Friki, but his info about the Dragonpit sequence contradicts mine. I am 100% confident about my info, for reasons I can't share. So even though I think there is potential for Tyrion betrayal, I don't believe in the trial bit.

Friki is also 100% certain though, so I am keeping an open mind about his info.

And this:

Quote

My info contradicts Friki's leaks esp. the Dragonpit info. I trust my source, but I am keeping an open mind about Friki's leaks.

Especially the Dragonpit info. 

And this:

Quote

According to my source, the Dragonpit sequence is vfx-heavy and happens in the first part of Episode 6 as part of the finale of the Great War and not in the 'dream of spring' epilogue. That contradicts with Friki's info.

Friki's latest "leak"--that Tyrion was imprisoned for a considerable period of time by the time his trial rolls around--also suggests that the trial is set in the epilogue as opposed to the KL finale of the Great War, which directly contradicts BoatsexBaby's info.

And this:

Quote

Unfortunately, I don't have confirmation either. And it's more risky than ever before to say anything, now that my info contradicts Friki's on atleast one important sequence. 

"At least" one important sequence.

Whether someone at HBO is fucking with Friki by feeding him plausible leaks backed up by set photos, or Friki just happened to make a good guess and BoatsexBaby picked up on it, we don't know, but as BoatsexBaby has said, they can't both be right, and as I have said, only one of Friki and BoatsexBaby has provided confirmed information about S8, and it ain't Friki, so I don't even know why people are still giving Friki's info about the Dragonpit any credence whatsoever.

...I'm almost certain that BoatsexBaby either knows Peter and/or Sophie's doubles or knows someone who worked closely with them on the production, because back in May during Italica filming, they provided photos taken from inside the car of Peter and Sophie's doubles leaving the set. BoatsexBaby also posted that Peter and Sophie's doubles were on set the Thursday in Italica and then later edited the post to remove the information. So I'm pretty sure that BoatsexBaby, knowing either Peter and Sophie's doubles or someone who worked with them on the Italica shoot, knows darn well whether or not there was a Tyrion trial, but isn't going to do anything to reveal how they came by that information.

Also, Friki's information--such as it is--has been all over the map. First, Tyrion was on trial for betraying the Starks. Then, he was on trial for causing the deaths of hundreds of people in KL because "They deserved it!". Now, he's apparently on trial for multiple crimes. Now, in all fairness, all of these things could be true, but it's sounding a lot like typical fleakers, who keep changing their stories to make them sound more plausible when fans find the cracks. And that's not even getting into the many other issues with the information that have already been pointed out.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs].
 

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

Lol, he is everything book purists accuse D&D to be. Arrogant and obsessed with shocking his fans.

But that doesn't change the fact that death of father figure is a common trope in fantasy.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Well, fine if BSB shared their information with someone else in private. But unless that person told Friko, he couldn't have known about it. So he had to have another source that told him. And even if he somehow knew the actors' name indirectly from BSB (which is highly unlikely) it still doesn't explain how he knew the costume.

And I actually believe BSB and think they have better information than Friki, but none of your quotes diminishes Friki's information about Toby Regbo at all. There are things in between "every information is correct" and "it's all wrong".

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, Callista said:

I disagree with all of this and with your statement that Sansa's "trope is the princess in the tower who wanted to marry a handsome prince and be a lady in a song/fairy tale."  I think that's too incomplete a description to constitute a real trope. Her trope is more that of the beautiful, initially shallow princess who eventually realizes that good looks do not always mean good character, and vice versa. So it makes more sense for her to end up with someone whom she had misjudged at first, such as Tyrion or the Hound.  But I also think that that trope could be deconstructed to some extent if she actually ends up single, realizing that she doesn't need a prince (handsome or not) in the first place.  And on a side note, it would be even more of a deconstruction if Arya, the tomboyish princess who never thought of getting married, is the one who ends up in a romantic relationship, while Sansa chooses to be on her own.

That's included in the trope I described. Princesses in towers are excluded from the smallfolk and sit high above society. That's what associates them with shallowness and naivety. She starts off sheltered and snobby like the Princess and the Frog. Re: Sansa ending up alone and never marries. I doubt he's deconstructing the trope until it no longer exists in the end. That would mean, it's beaten out of her for good and that little girls should be taught lessons not to dream about finding love and marrying a man worthy of them. Littlefinger would be right: "Life is not a song," i.e. "teach these predatory men a lesson by remaining alone forever." That's a terrible message. The trope should be reconstructed in some way, based on love which was her primary motivator. Even if it's more realistic, less fantastical, and the prince is "less handsome" in the end because of the deconstruction. So yes, the princess in tower who wants to marry a handsome prince is definitely a trope he's using with her, along with a mishmash of others. She spends half of her time in towers/keeps (The Red Keep, the Eyrie). She comes down from the Eyrie/tower as a fake bastard like Jon. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Eyes High]

31 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

. There are things in between "every information is correct" and "it's all wrong".

Well, no, because BoatsexBaby and Frikidoctor have made conflicting claims about what goes on in the Dragonpit, and they can't both be right, and only one of these posters has been demonstrably correct on a number of things to date and has proven inside information (probably obtained from the stand-ins).

Friki and BoatsexBaby's interaction honestly reminded me of a psychic's cold read:

Psychic: You will soon form a relationship with a dark-haired man.

Client: Oh, you must mean my ex James. He's got dark brown hair.

Psychic: ...Sure! Let's go with that.

With that said, it is possible that both BoatsexBaby and Frikidoctor have been lied to by their legit inside sources just to confuse things, although Frikidoctor as a high-profile fan with a high-profile spoiler-themed Youtube channel seems a much more plausible target for that than BoatsexBaby.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

When it comes to Tyrion's trial, it's not only Friki's sources, but also Javi's. In 5 months we will know, but it all comes to whether you want to trust them or not.

I don't think BoatsexBaby deserves absolute trust, yet. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Lol, he is everything book purists accuse D&D to be. Arrogant and obsessed with shocking his fans.

Probably one of many reasons that he isn't able to finish writing the story. 

 

1 hour ago, nikma said:

But that doesn't change the fact that death of father figure is a common trope in fantasy.

And yes.

Edited November 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

That would mean, it's beaten out of her for good and that little girls should be taught lessons not to dream about finding love and marrying a man worthy of them.

Well Sansa will be meeting the Hound, Tyrion and SweetRobin next season. Who knows, true love may happen!

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

She spends half of her time in towers/keeps (The Red Keep, the Eyrie). She comes down from the Eyrie/tower as a fake bastard like Jon. 

All this would be fine if last season did not happen. As we saw last season, Sansa is still pretty classist in the way she treats Brienne and Jon. She resents Jon for being KITN and expects him to take orders from her in front of the important Northern houses. Brienne is the heir to house Tarth who is only there because of her oaths to Catelyn and Sansa treats her like a lowly servant who has to follow orders without questioning them.  She is still sitting high in society. 

As Joe Dempsie mentioned in his con of thrones interview when asked to discuss pros and cons of Jon Vs Gendry as rulers - the one thing Gendry has going for him is a perspective from the small folk, which is something the current leaders of Westeros lack. Having lived and grown up among the small folk, Gendry knows what matters and what is important to the people actually being ruled than the houses fighting amongst themselves for ruling this or that.  I would add Arya to this, considering that she has been with the smallfolk since the end of season one. Davos as well.

Considering that Joe actually brought this up indicates, to me at least, that this is something that will be important on the show with respect to the endgame leader/leaders.

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Well Sansa will be meeting the Hound, Tyrion and SweetRobin next season. Who knows, true love may happen!

They're not hidden/cursed princes.

That's the trope. And GRRM is using the tropes as others have said. 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

All this would be fine if last season did not happen. As we saw last season, Sansa is still pretty classist in the way she treats Brienne and Jon. She resents Jon for being KITN and expects him to take orders from her in front of the important Northern houses. Brienne is the heir to house Tarth who is only there because of her oaths to Catelyn and Sansa treats her like a lowly servant who has to follow orders without questioning them.  She is still sitting high in society. 

As Joe Dempsie mentioned in his con of thrones interview when asked to discuss pros and cons of Jon Vs Gendry as rulers - the one thing Gendry has going for him is a perspective from the small folk, which is something the current leaders of Westeros lack. Having lived and grown up among the small folk, Gendry knows what matters and what is important to the people actually being ruled than the houses fighting amongst themselves for ruling this or that.  I would add Arya to this, considering that she has been with the smallfolk since the end of season one. Davos as well.

Considering that Joe actually brought this up indicates, to me at least, that this is something that will be important on the show with respect to the endgame leader/leaders.

No comment on your assessment of Sansa. This would turn into another derailment (I just have to laugh at the super special warning that applies just to Sansa for this thread).

Brienne though, I firmly believe she wants to serve. She knelt to Sansa and said the words which means it's more than about Cat's vow. But, Sansa is still a highborn and its not like the highborn lady/bodyguard dynamic needed to be erased. It just needed to be twisted. Instead of getting a male knight she got a woman. I'm more excited for that to happen in the books honestly because it will be fleshed out more. 

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I thought Jon and Sansa would be a possibility before season 6, but since their reunion it's clear that ain't never happening. I don't much care who Jon is paired with, but I do think that Kit and Sophie have better chemistry than Kit and Emilia. But then I think Kit has better chemistry with anyone over Emilia, even Joe Dempsie. 

However, I think Jon and Sansa do more than tolerate each other. Jon did leave Sansa in charge of the North, and she did tell him that he's good at this whole king thing. I think they're just figuring out how to be siblings after not really knowing each other despite sharing a childhood.

 

While I don't ship them, I thought it possible late S6 and S7.

 Sansa telling Jon not to leave, or he has to play smarter than Ned and Robb, is more because despite her words no one can protect her and he should stop trying, she feels safe with him, and that's like a beginning of trust returning to her.

It also some what mimics Ned and Cat, they didn't know each other, it took time, Cat's very words to Robb, that he didn't listen to.

As far as Sansa's end game, all I know is I like her to live and be at peace with her life, same for the rest of the Starks.

 I'm just not the God of this story, GRRM and D & D are.

[whateverdgaf]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Brienne though, I firmly believe she wants to serve. She knelt to Sansa and said the words which means it's more than about Cat's vow. But, Sansa is still a highborn and its not like the highborn lady/bodyguard dynamic needed to be erased. It just needed to be twisted. Instead of getting a male knight she got a woman. I'm more excited for that to happen in the books honestly because it will be fleshed out more. 

But whether or not she wants to serve doesn't change that Sansa as been pretty dismissive and cold towards the woman who saved her life, and Brienne may be willing to protect Sansa but we still see her trying to get her voice heard and offer up advice to Sansa, who just shuts her down. The, instead of providing scenes where a proper bond is developed, as with Jon and Davos or Dany and Missandei, we never get any scene where it seems that Sansa values Brienne as a person. And Brienne isn't a mindless robot who jut wants to serve, she also wants respect.  And as of yet, Sansa hasn't really shown her any.

But it might just be that D&D just aren't invested in this relationship and as such didn't bother building up much of a bond between the two, so this reading is unintentional on the creator's behalf. Either way, I hope it means Brienne won't be serving Sansa forever, because aside from her lack of relationship with Sansa it doesn't really utilise her skills and just means she is essentially beginning the series where she ended.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

All this would be fine if last season did not happen. As we saw last season, Sansa is still pretty classist in the way she treats Brienne and Jon. She resents Jon for being KITN and expects him to take orders from her in front of the important Northern houses. Brienne is the heir to house Tarth who is only there because of her oaths to Catelyn and Sansa treats her like a lowly servant who has to follow orders without questioning them.  She is still sitting high in society. 

I am not sure if classism; or only classism, is what makes Sansa so dismissive of Brienne. Sansa is basically a teenager and is trying to act the adult, and in doing so does what a lot of young people do where instead of doing the truly mature thing of accepting the advice of others and keeping an open mind, tries to show that she doesn't need anyone else by blanking them. Or maybe, having to put up with the Northern's lord's bitching with a smile, as well as dealing with other worries, Sansa takes out her stress on the person she knows will just stand there and take it.

Sansa's classism could also potentially be addressed and dealt with next season. If she ends up 'leading the home front', their could be a lot of potential for Sansa to deal with the smallfolk, especially those who have been displaced by the White Walkers, and find herself in their shoes a bit more. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Well, no, because BoatsexBaby and Frikidoctor have made conflicting claims about what goes on in the Dragonpit, and they can't both be right,  

That may be, but I wasn't talking at all about what's going on in the Dragon Pit. I said, that given how exactly he could described one of the new characters (but didn't know who said character was), Friki probably saw pictures. That's all. I even mentioned that these pics might have been faked, but I'm sure he saw some.

To claim that he only could describe the character, because Boat Sex Baby first mentioned that character in private to someone else, hardly makes sense at all.  

[anamika]

5 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

The, instead of providing scenes where a proper bond is developed, as with Jon and Davos or Dany and Missandei, we never get any scene where it seems that Sansa values Brienne as a person.

This is why I scoff at the idea that Sansa and Dany are going to be best buds next season. The show had plenty of chances to have Sansa bond with all these female characters in her story - Brienne and Arya.  Sansa picking a fight with every character has been her shtick for the past two seasons. After Sansa Vs Jon and Sansa Vs Arya, we are definitely getting Sansa Vs Dany in season 8. The EW article has already given us a heads up that Sansa is not pleased about the knee bending business. I am guessing this will cause drama till the AOTD attack. Or until Sansa realizes that a Jon/Dany marriage would be beneficial for her.

5 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I am not sure if classism; or only classism, is what makes Sansa so dismissive of Brienne. Sansa is basically a teenager and is trying to act the adult, and in doing so does what a lot of young people do where instead of doing the truly mature thing of accepting the advice of others and keeping an open mind, tries to show that she doesn't need anyone else by blanking them.

The classism comes in because teenager Sansa thinks she knows better than people like Jon, Davos, Brienne etc.  Sansa mocks Davos (Despite Davos setting her straight about the Karstarks and getting them the Mormonts) and scolds Jon for listening to Davos and Tormund instead of her. That's the classism in her. It shows when she openly questions Jon's decision in front of the Northern lords - no respect for the bastard KITN.  Even Brienne and Davos were side eyeing her there. And hypocritical to boot considering she kept pushing her unsolicited advice on Jon and then yells at Brienne for daring to do the same.

5 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

To claim that he only could describe the character, because Boat Sex Baby first mentioned that character in private to someone else, hardly makes sense at all.  

And all this is complicated by the fact that the first person to actually mention this character is u/claytoy:

Quote

Arya appears in a non war shot at dragonpit with several others where Ser Davos does most of the lip moving (no sound) followed by Gendry and others. No more details are available in the rumor because cast lists conflict in different versions of the rumor. The casts that fall common in all versions are Samwell Tarly, Bran, a bearded person that none recognizes, several highborn, soldiers and common folk and a woman in the shot seen from the back.

I don't want to speculate as the said scene had conflicting rumors. For example one version says Sansa, Tyrion and Brienne was in that scene while another rumor denies. But most accounts reported that this wasn't a night scene.

Claytoy mentioned this as a leak he got from post-production and he mentioned this three days before Friki leaked his info. Claytoy's leaks are incredibly suspicious as they are pretty much his predictions from some nine months ago.  Claytoy having this info before Friki's leak has lead Kaysen to speculate that Claytoy is Friki's source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9gnfnl/get_to_work_detectives_there_is_mystery_to_be/e65fwjq/

This is why I am starting to doubt Friki's leaks.

So here is the order:

Claytoy first mentions this scene where a lot of characters are gathered - he mentions Arya, Sam, Brienne, Tyrion, Gendry, bearded guy, woman seen from the back, soldiers etc and says that Davos does most of the talking in this scene.

A few days later Friki puts out a leak saying that dragonpit was a trial presided over by these characters, that Davos does most of the talking and that there is an unidentified bearded guy there

Then BoatsexBaby identifies the guy and informs everyone that she had told u/Everyfckngchicken about his identity a while back during spain filming.

[Minneapple]

I don't think Sansa was resentful at all of Jon being king. She may be upset with him kneeling to Dany this coming season, but that's a different issue. I don't think she's "dismissive" of Brienne either. I have a feeling the writers just didn't put much thought into her relationship with Brienne.

And I may be confused, but when did any of the leakers produce confirmed spoilers? Like saying "this will happen" and then a writer/director/actor confirms it to the media. 

[whateverdgaf]

6 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think Sansa was resentful at all of Jon being king. She may be upset with him kneeling to Dany this coming season, but that's a different issue. I don't think she's "dismissive" of Brienne either. I have a feeling the writers just didn't put much thought into her relationship with Brienne.

But D&D have put thought into their relationship.  They have shown Brienne show care and concern for Sansa. They could have had Sansa reciprocate that, like they did with Missandei and Dany, but they chose not to. Instead we have Sansa being cold and uncaring for Brienne. And as we have to go on is what D&D put on the screen, and what we get on the screen is Sansa being dismissive of Brienne, then Sansa is dismissive of Brienne. 

[tangerine95]

I sort of think Sansa being cold to Brienne last season was supposed to be on purpose to show Sansa being unsure if Brienne would chose Arya over her.They had LF point out that Brienne was sworn to protect both Stark girls,then they had her bond with Arya in front of Sansa and it's implied that Sansa sends her away in case it comes down to getting rid of Arya because LF makes her think she might chose to protect Arya instead of her.

I haven't rewatched season 6 in a while so I could be wrong but I don't remember her being as cold and rude to Brienne then as she was in season 7.

Edited November 19, 2018 by tangerine95

[whateverdgaf]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I sort of think Sansa being cold to Brienne last season was supposed to be on purpose to show Sansa being unsure if Brienne would chose Arya over her.They had LF point out that Brienne was sworn to protect both Stark girls,then they had her bond with Arya in front of Sansa and it's implied that Sansa sends her away in case it comes down to getting rid of Arya because LF makes her think she might chose to protect Arya instead of her.

I haven't rewatched season 6 in a while so I could be wrong but I don't remember her being as cold and rude to Brienne then as she was in season 7.

Possibly, there is a few reasons I can think of that causes Sansa's treatment of Brienne. Classism, distrust, a misguided attempt to appear mature etc.... In all likelihood it is a combination of these. None of it fair and either way, it's pretty lousy for Brienne to be treated like that after what Brienne has done for Sansa.

Season 6 Sansa felt more indifferent to Brienne more than anything else. If Sansa was losing faith in Brienne and that was the main cause for her attitude, it would have been better shown if we had scenes of genuine warmth or consideration from Sansa so there would have been a greater impact.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

But whether or not she wants to serve doesn't change that Sansa as been pretty dismissive and cold towards the woman who saved her life, and Brienne may be willing to protect Sansa but we still see her trying to get her voice heard and offer up advice to Sansa, who just shuts her down. The, instead of providing scenes where a proper bond is developed, as with Jon and Davos or Dany and Missandei, we never get any scene where it seems that Sansa values Brienne as a person. And Brienne isn't a mindless robot who jut wants to serve, she also wants respect.  And as of yet, Sansa hasn't really shown her any.

But it might just be that D&D just aren't invested in this relationship and as such didn't bother building up much of a bond between the two, so this reading is unintentional on the creator's behalf. Either way, I hope it means Brienne won't be serving Sansa forever, because aside from her lack of relationship with Sansa it doesn't really utilise her skills and just means she is essentially beginning the series where she ended.

I am not sure if classism; or only classism, is what makes Sansa so dismissive of Brienne. Sansa is basically a teenager and is trying to act the adult, and in doing so does what a lot of young people do where instead of doing the truly mature thing of accepting the advice of others and keeping an open mind, tries to show that she doesn't need anyone else by blanking them. Or maybe, having to put up with the Northern's lord's bitching with a smile, as well as dealing with other worries, Sansa takes out her stress on the person she knows will just stand there and take it.

Sansa's classism could also potentially be addressed and dealt with next season. If she ends up 'leading the home front', their could be a lot of potential for Sansa to deal with the smallfolk, especially those who have been displaced by the White Walkers, and find herself in their shoes a bit more. 

All in all, I think it's all the stress Sansa's carrying.   WRG to Brienne, the two main times she was curt with Brienne, she was actually saving her life ( tavern ) or saving their vows ( sending her to KL ), in both cases they were blips, no where near the level of rudeness Brienne showed Podrick since they left KL even in 7-4 Pod was giving her a compliment and she was ready to snap at him.

[SeanC]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

All this would be fine if last season did not happen. As we saw last season, Sansa is still pretty classist in the way she treats Brienne and Jon. She resents Jon for being KITN and expects him to take orders from her in front of the important Northern houses. Brienne is the heir to house Tarth who is only there because of her oaths to Catelyn and Sansa treats her like a lowly servant who has to follow orders without questioning them.  She is still sitting high in society. 

I don’t see how you can cite the Sansa/Brienne dynamic as evidence of classism when, as you acknowledge, Brienne is also a noblewoman.  Sansa expects Brienne to follow orders because she swore an oath to do that, no different from any other knight.

Saying she expects Jon to “take orders” is also skewed.  She disagreed with his decisions and wished that he followed her advice. Everything about the Northern story is admittedly a confusing muddle, but the Season 7 conflict between Sansa and Jon (and the absent Jon) was framed far more in terms of policy disagreement than any sort of class issue.

As far as Season 7 goes, I expect Sansa will be suspicious of Dany at first (which she should be), followed by a standard and probably underwhelming rapprochement, based on past writing choices.

Edited November 19, 2018 by SeanC

[whateverdgaf]

23 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

All in all, I think it's all the stress Sansa's carrying.   WRG to Brienne, the two main times she was curt with Brienne, she was actually saving her life ( tavern ) or saving their vows ( sending her to KL ), in both cases they were blips, no where near the level of rudeness Brienne showed Podrick since they left KL even in 7-4 Pod was giving her a compliment and she was ready to snap at him.

The difference between Sansa being rude to Brienne and Brienne being rude to Pod is that as well as Brienne being rude to Pod, we also see Brienne training Pod and helping him achieve his dream of being a knight, trusting him and confiding in him, apologising when she feels she has been too harsh etc... With Sansa, it's just rudeness and indifference. And rudeness and indifference towards a woman she owes her life to at that. Human relationships are flawed and that is the case wit Brienne and Pod, but whereas their relationship still has its strengths and mutual care at the core, Brienne and Sansa's relationship only has one-sided care and everything worthwhile about it comes from Brienne. 

D&D could have chosen to show scenes where Sansa shows some care and regard for Brienne, or at least some basic gratitude. They had two whole seasons to do it. It is not as though Sansa is now incapable of being kind, warm or affectionate, we see her do so for others characters. But not Brienne. They had moments of warmth and friendship between Arya and Brienne, so D&D had time and the ability. Instead D&D have decided that in Sansa and Brienne's interactions, they will have Sansa either be indifferent of dismissive towards Brienne, with nothing to mitigate these interactions. We can only go by on what we have on screen, and what the screen has showed us is that Brienne is of little consequence to Sansa. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[whateverdgaf]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don’t see how you can cite the Sansa/Brienne dynamic as evidence of classism when, as you acknowledge, Brienne is also a noblewoman.  Sansa expects Brienne to follow orders because she swore an oath to do that, no different from any other knight.

Saying she expects Jon to “take orders” is also skewed.  She disagreed with his decisions and wished that he followed her advice. Everything about the Northern story is admittedly a confusing muddle, but the Season 7 conflict between Sansa and Jon (and the absent Jon) was framed far more in terms of policy disagreement than any sort of class issue.

It is rather hypocritical of Sansa to expect blind obedience from Brienne but also insist on Jon to take her guidance on things. If Sansa wants Jon to listen to what she has to say; and rightfully so, even if the time and place is up for debate, then Sansa should show the same respect for Brienne. It does show a fair bit of entitlement on Sansa's behalf, whatever the cause for it. Mostly, I think it is the result of a young girl coming into a position of power and not being quite prepared for it yet, and struggling to put on a facade of maturity and strength. This might be something Sansa learns to address with the upcoming season. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

This is why I scoff at the idea that Sansa and Dany are going to be best buds next season. The show had plenty of chances to have Sansa bond with all these female characters in her story - Brienne and Arya.  Sansa picking a fight with every character has been her shtick for the past two seasons. After Sansa Vs Jon and Sansa Vs Arya, we are definitely getting Sansa Vs Dany in season 8. 

No lies detected.

It's been well established that TV Sansa doesn't play well with others, and that courteous Book Sansa is dead and buried. That's not going to change. TV Sansa in recent seasons is bitchy and belligerent, especially when she feels threatened, which is pretty much all of the time. Expecting her to give Dany the benefit of the doubt, much less become BFFs with her, is very naive. I don't think Sansa will declare Dany her mortal enemy, but she's not going to be throwing a parade for her anytime soon, either.

If there is Sansa vs. Dany, I look forward to Jonsa shippers' reactions to the inevitable scene where Sansa starts whining about Dany and Jon politely tells her to STFU.

Quote

Claytoy mentioned this as a leak he got from post-production and he mentioned this three days before Friki leaked his info. Claytoy's leaks are incredibly suspicious as they are pretty much his predictions from some nine months ago.  Claytoy having this info before Friki's leak has lead Kaysen to speculate that Claytoy is Friki's source:

There was a 4chan poster who many months ago posted about a random Dornish prince showing up. It seems to be a fan theory with some legs, much like the Tyrion trial theory was kicking around for a while before Friki posted his first video in the fall.

Claytoy is shady as hell. They've been shadowbanned by Reddit (a fate usually reserved for spammers), so no one can see their comment history, leaving them free to alter their spoilers as they choose. I don't know what's going on there. Kaysen762 very recently said that Friki told at least two people about his Tyrion information before putting up his first spoilery video this fall, since Kaysen762 was DMed with Friki's leaks by two people before he put up the first video and also said this to Claytoy:

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Your post came 5 hours after Friki told me he had information about the DP scene. Friki managed to tell Enty, jory and others what the information was, so my guess is you heard as well. He obviously did not tell them who the two unidentified strangers were, so you guessed a male and a female. Well you got that wrong, it was 2 males. So now you are claiming it was Yara, like the person who told you knew who Gendry was but not Yara? I guess also you thought Gendry would be on Friki's list because of what boatsexbaby said, you guessed wrong there.

Your post about Tyrion and Sansa disappearing was because Friki had a theory they betray everyone (you also had a theory Tyrion and Sansa get back together), so you were doing the vague info which may connect both ideas. But then Friki said only Tyrion betrays the Starks, too bad you included Sansa in your info.

Your rumors cam after Friki released a vid and you tried to piggy back with some vague comment you had made earlier about a theory about a Tyrion betrayal. Not a rumour but a theory.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, whateverdgaf said:

The difference between Sansa being rude to Brienne and Brienne being rude to Pod is that as well as Brienne being rude to Pod, we also see Brienne training Pod and helping him achieve his dream of being a knight, trusting him and confiding in him, apologising when she feels she has been too harsh etc... With Sansa, it's just rudeness and indifference. And rudeness and indifference towards a woman she owes her life to at that.

D&D could have chosen to show scenes where Sansa shows some care and regard for Brienne, or at least some basic gratitude. They had two whole seasons to do it. It is not as though Sansa is now incapable of being kind, warm or affectionate, we see her do so for others characters. But not Brienne. They had moments of warmth and friendship between Arya and Brienne, so D&D had time and the ability. Instead D&D have decided that in Sansa and Brienne's interactions, they will have Sansa either be indifferent of dismissive towards Brienne, with nothing to mitigate these interactions. We can only go by on what we have on screen, and what the screen has showed us is that Brienne is of little consequence to Sansa. 

Brienne, keeled and swore vows, Sansa gave her two orders, go to Riverrun, Sansa wasn't rude there, she laid out facts and was polite enough; now we have the KL issue, Sansa in that 7-4 scene with Arya and Brienne , they quickly shot to Sansa giving LF daggers, she realized LF could use Brienne.

The letter comes and Sansa uses it to kill 2 birds with one stone, she tells she's sending her to represent WF, no rudeness is really shown until Sansa sit's down and Brienne pushes her fears of LF and others doing things behind her back ( another foreshadow of Sansa kidnapping )at this point Sansa ( wanting to be treated as an adult )pushes harder, when Brienne agrees and leaves, Sansa ponders her decision when her hand goes to her chin.

Sansa and Brienne both made vows to each other; Brienne to protect, obey and  give counsel; and Sansa promised a place at the table and ask nothing of her that would bring Brienne dishonor, keeping her there put that in jeopardy .

Doesn't make either wrong, but WF had to be represented, Sansa knows or feels it could be a trap to get her ( she has no clue of Cersei Brienne dynamics ) but she feels safe, she's home, Bran, Arya and troops are there, in her mind it's a reasonable plan.

[SeanC]

28 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

It is rather hypocritical of Sansa to expect blind obedience from Brienne but also insist on Jon to take her guidance on things. If Sansa wants Jon to listen to what she has to say; and rightfully so, even if the time and place is up for debate, then Sansa should show the same respect for Brienne. It does show a fair bit of entitlement on Sansa's behalf, whatever the cause for it. 

That’s hypocritical only in the sense that anybody who gives advice while declining on other occasions to listen to others’ advice is.  Jon ignores everybody in his Northern council but gets frustrated when those down south don’t believe his doomsday warnings, for instance.  Is that hypocritical?

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Mostly, I think it is the result of a young girl coming into a position of power and not being quite prepared for it yet, and struggling to put on a facade of maturity and strength. This might be something Sansa learns to address with the upcoming season. 

The show’s writing aims to convey that she’s already awesome at being a ruling lady (which, as per normal, means having others line up and say that), so I doubt it.

24 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It's been well established that TV Sansa doesn't play well with others, and that courteous Book Sansa is dead and buried. 

 

It amuses me that the show’s PR generally refers to Sansa as a diplomat/politician even though she’s never shown convincing anybody of anything and generally is played as imperious and aloof in any formal setting.  I get that this is probably the writers’ idea of a Strong Female Leader (Dany and Cersei, among others, also act like this), but it feels like there’s a huge gap between whatever notes they have from GRRM about character traits and what they actually write.

Edited November 19, 2018 by SeanC

[whateverdgaf]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Brienne, keeled and swore vows, Sansa gave her two orders, go to Riverrun, Sansa wasn't rude there, she laid out facts and was polite enough; now we have the KL issue, Sansa in that 7-4 scene with Arya and Brienne , they quickly shot to Sansa giving LF daggers, she realized LF could use Brienne.

The letter comes and Sansa uses it to kill 2 birds with one stone, she tells she's sending her to represent WF, no rudeness is really shown until Sansa sit's down and Brienne pushes her fears of LF and others doing things behind her back ( another foreshadow of Sansa kidnapping )at this point Sansa ( wanting to be treated as an adult )pushes harder, when Brienne agrees and leaves, Sansa ponders her decision when her hand goes to her chin.

Sansa and Brienne both made vows to each other; Brienne to protect, obey and  give counsel; and Sansa promised a place at the table and ask nothing of her that would bring Brienne dishonor, keeping her there put that in jeopardy .

Doesn't make either wrong, but WF had to be represented, Sansa knows or feels it could be a trap to get her ( she has no clue of Cersei Brienne dynamics ) but she feels safe, she's home, Bran, Arya and troops are there, in her mind it's a reasonable plan.

Being 'polite enough' is about as good as it gets when it comes to Sansa, and that really isn't enough for me to think Brienne is getting her worthwhile in this relationship. For all the sacrifices Brienne has made for Sansa, Sansa should t least try to do so in turn. That's the problem. To Sansa, Brienne is just an employee whereas Brienne deserves so much more than that. 

And acts like a child instead, as I have said.

Asking Brienne for help against LF isn't a dishonour, so there is no reason for Sansa not to have taken Brienne into her confidence. And Brienne is capable for providing for herself and is a noblewoman, so having a place at Sansa's table doesn't do much good for her. If Sansa had the respect and care for Brienne that Brienne's selflessness has earned, Sansa would have taken the initiative to provide something in their relationship that suggests actual care on her part. 

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It amuses me that the show’s PR generally refers to Sansa as a diplomat/politician even though she’s never shown convincing anybody of anything and generally is played as imperious and aloof in any formal setting.  I get that this is probably the writers’ idea of a Strong Female Leader (Dany and Cersei, among others, also act like this), but it feels like there’s a huge gap between whatever notes they have from GRRM about character traits and what they actually write.

Agreed, and agreed. Their apparent opinion that the wight hunt idea is a testament to Tyrion's brilliance is another example of how there's a big gap between what they want to convey--Sansa as a consummate diplomat/politician, Tyrion as the smartest guy in any room--and what actually ends up being conveyed. 

With TV Davos, they show an effective diplomat type (with the Iron Bank, with Lyanna Mormont, etc.), so it's not that they can't write a character effectively using warmth, charm, humour, flattery, persuasion, etc. for political purposes. It's just that they choose not to with Sansa.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That’s hypocritical only in the sense that anybody who gives advice while declining on other occasions to listen to others’ advice is.  Jon ignores everybody in his Northern council but gets frustrated when those down south don’t believe his doomsday warnings, for instance.  Is that hypocritical?

The show’s writing aims to convey that she’s already awesome at being a ruling lady (which, as per normal, means having others line up and say that), so I doubt it.

It amuses me that the show’s PR generally refers to Sansa as a diplomat/politician even though she’s never shown convincing anybody of anything and generally is played as imperious and aloof in any formal setting.  I get that this is probably the writers’ idea of a Strong Female Leader (Dany and Cersei, among others, also act like this), but it feels like there’s a huge gap between whatever notes they have from GRRM about character traits and what they actually write.

 

There was no reason for Sansa to refuse Brienne's advice. Brienne is loyal and trustworthy and she had the right to be heard, just as Sansa did. If Sansa wants her right to be listened to she should respect Brienne's right also. Graciously accepting and listening to advice doesn't mean always following it, but Sansa didn't even do that for Brienne and unless they have done something to prove themselves unworthy, that is everybody's right. But the minute Brienne dared expressed her own views Sansa turned cold and shut her down. I can't recall how Jon treated the Northern Lord's advice, but if Jon treated them the way Sansa treated Brienne there is an argument for hypocrisy (even if a counter argument would be that Brienne disagreed with Sansa in a private setting where Sansa didn't need to put on a show of power, and that Brienne had done more for Sansa than many of the lords had for Jon and as such deserves more respect). Jon is too pure for me so for him to have some flaws would be very welcome.

If the show wanted to convey Sansa as perfect in leadership, then that is some poor writing on their part. As it is, it is more believable for me for Sansa to still have some major flaws in her leadership and that is how it comes across on screen. For a young, inexperienced teenage girl with minimal training, I think she is a reasonably ok leader, perhaps that is what the writers are trying to put across.

Edited November 19, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Asking Brienne for help against LF isn't a dishonour, so there is no reason for Sansa not to have taken Brienne into her confidence. And Brienne is capable for providing for herself and is a noblewoman, so having a place at Sansa's table doesn't do much good for her. If Sansa had the respect and care for Brienne that Brienne's selflessness has earned, Sansa would have taken the initiative to provide something in their relationship that suggests actual care on her part. 

Brienne would be forced to fight for Sansa against Arya, that would  / could bring the dishonor.  There's 7 years of reason for Sansa not to confide in anyone, except for Bran, he's one person in no physical form can harm her, and is truthful. Arya is wild and threatening for no reason since she's been back, Jon autocratic and thinks of her as a 13 YO, LF well she knows LF, Royce, Glover question marks.

I don't think Sansa's  rude to be rude, it's the stress of the plates she's juggling and not being sure .

I think Sansa sending her away to keep LF from her is her form of caring, it's probably the most she can mustard at this stage.

Getting too close to others hasn't worked well for the Starks. Sansa isn't going to get over any trust issues for years, if ever. 

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Getting too close to others hasn't worked well for the Starks. Sansa isn't going to get over any trust issues for years, if ever. 

Except that Sansa trusts Brienne implicitly and still treats her like garbage, so "trust issues" isn't much of an excuse for Sansa's behaviour towards her. (The same goes for Jon.)

[whateverdgaf]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Brienne would be forced to fight for Sansa against Arya, that would  / could bring the dishonor.  There's 7 years of reason for Sansa not to confide in anyone, except for Bran, he's one person in no physical form can harm her, and is truthful. Arya is wild and threatening for no reason since she's been back, Jon autocratic and thinks of her as a 13 YO, LF well she knows LF, Royce, Glover question marks.

I don't think Sansa's  rude to be rude, it's the stress of the plates she's juggling and not being sure .

I think Sansa sending her away to keep LF from her is her form of caring, it's probably the most she can mustard at this stage.

Getting too close to others hasn't worked well for the Starks. Sansa isn't going to get over any trust issues for years, if ever. 

But there wasn't a fight between Sansa and Arya. Instead the two solved things amicably. So Brienne wouldn't have been forced to fight Arya. And as Brienne wanted to keep both girls safe, more than anyone she could have been trusted to help solve things without either girl being hurt.

Whatever Sansa's reasons for being rude to Brienne, Brienne still deserves better than to be treated with nothing other than rudeness or indifference. 

Sansa was capable of being caring and showing warmth to Arya, Bran and Jon. They may have been her siblings, but it shows that Sansa is capable of being pleasant and friendly towards others.To put in the effort for Brienne would be enough, but she doesn't even do that. There is no hint of effort on Sansa's part to return the friendship and kindness that Brienne has offered. And you don't have to be trusting to be kind. 

I hope that in season 8, Sansa's treatment of Brienne will be addressed. Brienne's 'fuck loyalty' does indicate some change in attitude in Brienne, she is no longer holding loyalty as sacred and is willing to see the grey in things, so its possible that in season 8 that she will be speaking up for herself more and acting out of a desire to do what is best, not what Sansa wants. Whether this creates conflict between the two is yet to be seen. That said, with Jaime coming North next season I doubt that Sansa will be Brienne's primary scene partner or their relationship will take precedence in Brienne's story. The writers have always seemed to place greater emphasis on Brienne and Jaime than Brienne and Sansa, so Sansa's treatment of Brienne will probably receive little attention. It's possible that D&D only bother to write about Brienne and Sansa when it is necessary for plot and conflict, but either way I think it means Brienne will be leaving the Starks' service next season, otherwise they would have put more effort into creating a relationship between Brienne and Sansa that is worth getting invested in. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[WindyNights]

19 hours ago, nikma said:

Lol, he is everything book purists accuse D&D to be. Arrogant and obsessed with shocking his fans.

But that doesn't change the fact that death of father figure is a common trope in fantasy.

That's not the real complaint behind the show's shocking moments. There's nothing wrong with being shocking. The problem arises from the execution. So GRRM's twists are well set up in advance but partially because of the format and partially because of the writing, the show pulls twists off in a way that almost seems random.  The lead up to the shocking moments is bad so things feel inorganic.

Like Stannis burning Shireen. That's a great twist. The problem is how ham-fisted it is and how it relies on a Diabolus Ex Machina to put Stannis in that position. 

Ellaria killing Doran and Trystane would've been a great twist as well but it's just so random that it feels more like the show just wants to cut down on an unpopular plot

 

Here: 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DeconstructedTrope/ASongOfIceAndFire

[WindyNights]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wouldn't read too much into the names. GRRM's protagonist of The Armageddon Rag is named Sander, and he has nothing in common with ASOIAF Sandor. 

A Song for Lya is a little weird in relation to ASOIAF, but not for the reason you claim: one of the narrator's two love interests is a slender, waiflike brunette, and the other is an "auburn-haired vision," which...well....

I noticed that too. GRRM has a thing for auburn haired women with big boobs. 

If it was just names, I wouldn't think much of it but Lyanna even looks like Lyanna Stark. And Robb Stark and Lyanna Stark are gender-swapped versions of each other's roles within the series. And they both destroy themselves and their own family because of the follies of love.

Robb Stark:

"If I could wish the Kingslayer back in chains I would. You freed him without my knowledge or consent . . . but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love's not always wise, I've learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts . . . wherever they take us. Don't we, Mother?"

----

"I have. I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else."

-----

 

Lyanna Stark:

Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

----

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

[Eyes High]

59 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

I noticed that too. GRRM has a thing for auburn haired women with big boobs. 

If it was just names, I wouldn't think much of it but Lyanna even looks like Lyanna Stark.

A Song For Lya really is just a science fiction metaphor for what was going on in GRRM's personal life at the time, as far as I can tell. A slender brunette named Lisa Lya leaves George Robb for George's best friend a parasitic entity forming a hive mind, leaving a devastated George Robb to console himself with auburn-haired Gale Burnick Laurie Blackburn. Gale and Laurie even have similar last names: Burnick, Blackburn. Really none of it applies to ASOIAF in my opinion, apart from GRRM's continuing fixation on auburn-haired beauties with big boobs (the Tully women, Sansa) and redheads in general (Ygritte, Melisandre, etc.), and GRRM apparently naming one of the most loathsome characters in ASOIAF after Lisa (Lisa Tuttle vs. Lysa Tully), which seems like a nasty thing to do given that they're apparently still friends in real life, but there you have it. 

And given that A Song for Lya seemed to have so much to do with GRRM's personal issues at the time, I really don't see what A Song for Lya has to do with predicting the resolution of ASOIAF, given that GRRM had been happily involved with Parris for several years when he came up with the ending for ASOIAF and is still with her today.

ETA: Kit did an appearance today to promote his new play. Not much about GOT, but he did say that they filmed for nine months because they wanted to make each episode feel like a movie on TV. Sounds promising! It also sounds like we're getting long episodes, which aligns with David Nutter's AMA where he said that the episode length was "dancing around" the longest episode of the series to date (7x07, which was 80 minutes).

Edited November 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

12 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

 And Brienne isn't a mindless robot who jut wants to serve, she also wants respect.  And as of yet, Sansa hasn't really shown her any.

She IS kind of a duty robot though. She's like the Terminator On A Horse in AFFC. Okay I'm exaggerating a bit - but even her internal thoughts are very old skool duty/honor, a desire to be respected through her steadfast commitment to vows. I love her and she's one of my favorite characters, but I don't think Brienne is crying in her bed at night because Sansa gave her a brusque command. And I didn't see as outright disrespectful. Now, Red Ronnet in the books? That's disrespect. Yikes!

[nikma]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Like Stannis burning Shireen. That's a great twist. The problem is how ham-fisted it is and how it relies on a Diabolus Ex Machina to put Stannis in that position.

No more ham-fisted than Robert's death in AGOT.  Or Theon taking WF. 

[Smad]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

This is why I scoff at the idea that Sansa and Dany are going to be best buds next season. The show had plenty of chances to have Sansa bond with all these female characters in her story - Brienne and Arya.  Sansa picking a fight with every character has been her shtick for the past two seasons. After Sansa Vs Jon and Sansa Vs Arya, we are definitely getting Sansa Vs Dany in season 8. The EW article has already given us a heads up that Sansa is not pleased about the knee bending business. I am guessing this will cause drama till the AOTD attack. Or until Sansa realizes that a Jon/Dany marriage would be beneficial for her.

Bond with Arya? How would that go? Contrary to popular belief, playing quid pro quo with Hannibal Lecter ain't fun. Makes bonding kind of hard when threatened with face removal. And she uses her mean voice with Brienne once (which did not fit her S7 character but whatever) and OMG she's evil incarnate. Maybe she would have time to bond if she didn't have to do every damn thing in the North. Maybe if Jon weren't so busy being under house arrest but still enjoying long walks on the beach and was actually living up to his title (king in the NORTH). Or maybe if Arya actually did ANYTHING productive as princess of Winterfell instead of wasting Sansa's time with nonsense or wasting her time playing a losing game with Littlefinger. Maybe Sansa would then actually have time to bond with someone.

And anyone with half a working brain would not be pleased about the knee bending situation. Sansa was actually doing Jon's job on top of having to deal with the fickle Northern lords, having to placate them and reaffirm he was their king. They chose a king because they wanted independence. Which Jon pissed away because Dany had sadface. Why would anyone be happy with that decision? Besides he bend the knee to someone who was neither a ruler of any of the 7 kingdoms, much less the ruler on the Iron Throne. Which makes this 'bending the knee' business doubly stupid.

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The classism comes in because teenager Sansa thinks she knows better than people like Jon, Davos, Brienne etc.  Sansa mocks Davos (Despite Davos setting her straight about the Karstarks and getting them the Mormonts) and scolds Jon for listening to Davos and Tormund instead of her.

A cat or dog would know better than Jon. Hell an inanimate object like a chair would know better than Jon. The guy who keeps failing upwards and is constantly rewarded for it. He's easy to beat in the smarts department. I'm not even going to touch the 'Mormont getting' scene, class A victim blaming. But then little Lady Sourpuss is one hell of a woman hating feminist, so there is no winning in a scene with her. Oh sorry, she only hates 'feminine' women'. Men (like Davos) or manly girls like Arya, now those stand a chance. And she didn't scold Jon for listening to Davos and Tormund, that's some Sansa hate 'tunnel vision' right there. She wondered why he didn't ask her on insight into Ramsey which was only logical since she actually knew the guy. How is that her scolding him for talking military strategy with actual soldiers which she herself admits she doesn't possess. Good grief.

[whateverdgaf]

31 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

She IS kind of a duty robot though. She's like the Terminator On A Horse in AFFC. Okay I'm exaggerating a bit - but even her internal thoughts are very old skool duty/honor, a desire to be respected through her steadfast commitment to vows. I love her and she's one of my favorite characters, but I don't think Brienne is crying in her bed at night because Sansa gave her a brusque command. And I didn't see as outright disrespectful. Now, Red Ronnet in the books? That's disrespect. Yikes!

Brienne is fixed on her duty, but that doesn't mean she does not have feelings. No, she isn't crying in her bed and Sansa isn't on Ronnet levels, but that is a ridiculously low bar and it doesn't mean that Brienne doesn't deserve to be treated better, nor that she doesn't take issue with Sansa's consistently cold and ungrateful attitude towards her. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[bubble sparkly]

If the Northerners are mad at Jon for bending the knee when he turns up with Dany, two dragons and somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 troops, then they truly are the morons the rest of the 7 kingdoms thinks they are. If they had one brain cell between them they would zip it while Dany is assisting in fighting the NK and try to negotiate independence after the war is over.

But we pretty much already know how this is going to play out. The Northeners will spend 1 or 2 eps calling Dany a foreign whore and the Mad King’s daughter and railing at Jon for bending the knee. Then, the Winterfell attack will happen and Jon and Dany will lead their respective troops. After the battle the Northeners will probably decide Dany is okay after all, then the survivors will all focus their hatred on Cersei and the NK and make their way to KL together.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I noticed that too. GRRM has a thing for auburn haired women with big boobs. 

 

I think he has a fetish for all shades of red hair. His wife is a red head. Whom he apparently met in a swimming pool. My personal theory is that, Florian/Jonquil is his version of Tolkien's Beren/Luthien. Luthien was an ode to his wife and they even had their headstones inscribed with those names. 

[Eyes High]

44 minutes ago, Smad said:

And anyone with half a working brain would not be pleased about the knee bending situation. Sansa was actually doing Jon's job on top of having to deal with the fickle Northern lords, having to placate them and reaffirm he was their king. They chose a king because they wanted independence. Which Jon pissed away because Dany had sadface. Why would anyone be happy with that decision? Besides he bend the knee to someone who was neither a ruler of any of the 7 kingdoms, much less the ruler on the Iron Throne. Which makes this 'bending the knee' business doubly stupid.

Yes, it's a completely sensible reaction.

Jon: Hey, Sansa, guess what? I've gotten Dany to agree to use her dragons and her tens of thousands of soldiers to help save us all from otherwise certain annihilation by the WWs! 

Sansa, probably: HOW DARE YOU

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But then little Lady Sourpuss is one hell of a woman hating feminist, so there is no winning in a scene with her. Oh sorry, she only hates 'feminine' women'. 

"Hating Sansa" is not "hating women." Heck, it's not even "hating 'feminine' women." Lyanna Mormont doesn't dislike Sansa because she's feminine, she dislikes her because Sansa was being patronizing and condescending, as opposed to Davos, who gave her the respect she deserved.

The idea that the only reason anyone could possibly have a problem with Sansa's actions is hating feminine women is completely nonsensical. It's nothing more than an attempt to cut any criticism of Sansa's behaviour off with an accusation of sexism or hating girly girls.

And let's be real, TV Sansa's problem isn't that she's a girly girl, is it? It's that she's condescending and bitchy pretty much all of the time. Lyanna picked up on it, being a decent judge of character, and acted accordingly. That's on Sansa, frankly, not Lyanna.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think he has a fetish for all shades of red hair. His wife is a red head. Whom he apparently met in a swimming pool. My personal theory is that, Florian/Jonquil is his version of Tolkien's Beren/Luthien. Luthien was an ode to his wife and they even had their headstones inscribed with those names. 

Both of his wives: Gale Burnick also had red hair.

...Kind of puts all the sexualized stuff about Sansa in the books in a different light, doesn't it? 

[OhOkayWhat]

Discussing Sansa? Here? Now, that's new!

Also, GRRM private life? Really?

Edited November 19, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

If the Northerners are mad at Jon for bending the knee when he turns up with Dany, two dragons and somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 troops, then they truly are the morons the rest of the 7 kingdoms thinks they are. If they had one brain cell between them they would zip it while Dany is assisting in fighting the NK and try to negotiate independence after the war is over.

Dany turns up with her dragons and her troops, then Jaime turns up. I doubt they're happy to see him either. 

The northern story has been such a letdown. 

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

A Song For Lya really is just a science fiction metaphor for what was going on in GRRM's personal life at the time, as far as I can tell. A slender brunette named Lisa Lya leaves George Robb for George's best friend a parasitic entity forming a hive mind, leaving a devastated George Robb to console himself with auburn-haired Gale Burnick Laurie Blackburn. Gale and Laurie even have similar last names: Burnick, Blackburn. Really none of it applies to ASOIAF in my opinion, apart from GRRM's continuing fixation on auburn-haired beauties with big boobs (the Tully women, Sansa) and redheads in general (Ygritte, Melisandre, etc.), and GRRM apparently naming one of the most loathsome characters in ASOIAF after Lisa (Lisa Tuttle vs. Lysa Tully), which seems like a nasty thing to do given that they're apparently still friends in real life, but there you have it. 

And given that A Song for Lya seemed to have so much to do with GRRM's personal issues at the time, I really don't see what A Song for Lya has to do with predicting the resolution of ASOIAF, given that GRRM had been happily involved with Parris for several years when he came up with the ending for ASOIAF and is still with her today.

ETA: Kit did an appearance today to promote his new play. Not much about GOT, but he did say that they filmed for nine months because they wanted to make each episode feel like a movie on TV. Sounds promising! It also sounds like we're getting long episodes, which aligns with David Nutter's AMA where he said that the episode length was "dancing around" the longest episode of the series to date (7x07, which was 80 minutes).

GRRM has noted that he takes from his life to put in his books and clearly, he isn't over his issues. Remember Lysa Tully? Also write down how many love triangles are within the series.

All the stuff you said, I know. GRRM says as much in Dream Songa Volume I. That romance that Somg for Lya is based on is based on GRRM's first serious relationship and that'll have a long shadow over anyone's life.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

No more ham-fisted than Robert's death in AGOT.  Or Theon taking WF. 

Way more ham-fisted than that. The spot where Stannis burned Shireen is less than one day's ride from Winterfell. lmao

Jon camped there the day before the Battle of the Bastards.

 

There's a large gap between convenient actions and breaking the logic of the story so outcomes have to happen.

Edited November 19, 2018 by WindyNights

[nikma]

43 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Jon camped there the day before the Battle of the Bastards.

The problem for Stannis was weather, not distance. Even if he was at WF's gates his army would die during that weather.

Edited November 19, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM has noted that he takes from his life to put in his books and clearly, he isn't over his issues. Remember Lysa Tully? Also write down how many love triangles are within the series.

All the stuff you said, I know. GRRM says as much in Dream Songa Volume I. That romance that Somg for Lya is based on is based on GRRM's first serious relationship and that'll have a long shadow over anyone's life.

If you knew it, why didn't you mention it? GRRM dealing with his personal romantic issues through fiction by writing A Song for Lya is important context, and his personal life was much happier when devising the ending to ASOIAF in the 1990s than it was when writing A Song for Lya two decades earlier.

Arguing that A Song for Lya is evidence that GRRM hates fictional romance and that therefore Jon and Dany's relationship is doomed is like arguing that Adam Sandler's character in The Wedding Singer cannot possibly have a happy ending because he sings "Love Stinks" partway through the movie. 

Also, The Armageddon Rag, which threatened much doom and gloom, ended with the main characters having a party together, and no discernible armageddon to speak of. The protagonist's marriage failed, but it's implied the protagonist will get back together with an old girlfriend (who has reddish-blond hair, of course).

I for one would not mind one jot if we got the equivalent of the party scene at the end of Return of the Jedi with GOT. Heck, if any characters have earned a dance party, it's these folks. You can even play "Yub Nub" in the background and have Ned and Lyanna's ghosts looking on approvingly for all I care.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Eyes High