Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Wouter]

20 hours ago, anamika said:

So you don't think that Jon/Dany are having a baby next season?  If Jon is indeed a fire wight in the books, then I don't think he would be able to procreate. In which case Dany is not having a child either and they both die ending the Targaryen line.

 

I don't know if there will be a baby. On the one hand it's the logical progression of the story (also because Jon and Dany have been shown ruling), on the other hand Martin did have Jon stabbed to death. Maybe the latter was merely to get Jon free from the Watch, but it remains a curious choice to do so while he also showed with Beric that such things come at a cost.

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

There hasn’t been any indication on the show that Jon is at all biologically different now, really.  He seems to bleed, breathe, eat, and (presumably) defecate just like before.  He can evidently get it up.  I don’t see why his testicles wouldn’t be working, since everything else seems to.

Something similar would seem to imply to Beric (in the show) and to Melisandre as well. The latter is clearly capable of sex, as well. So I don't know if much can be concluded from such observation in the show universe.

Dany was pretty flabbergasted when she noted his mortal wounds on the ship though, realising that Davos hadn't been kidding. At the end of S7, at least, D&D hadn't yet forgotten that Jon was magically resurrected.

[connieinnc]

I believe it is much more likely that the 'Sansa statue' fan posted that for attention than every single other source did not report it, but that is simply my opinion.

[WearyTraveler]

37 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

I believe it is much more likely that the 'Sansa statue' fan posted that for attention than every single other source did not report it, but that is simply my opinion.

But she couldn't know what would get reported by the media and what wouldn't.  As I understand it, this is a Sansa fan who was at the event and was live tweeting (or almost live tweeting) everything as it was happening.  She tweeted all the answers Sophie gave as she was giving them.  She had no way of knowing what the press would report of this event.

Later, when the press started publishing articles about this Q&A they reported all the same answers as the fan tweeted, but they never mentioned the statue. So, by reporting all the answers the fan tweeted, the press actually gave credibility to everything the fan had previously tweeted.

 

As I see it there are three possibilities here:

• The answer about the statue is true, the press did not report it at the request of HBO.  This is not as unlikely as people think it is, while it is true that HBO has no official power over the press, they do have the power to set the rules for press visits to filming locations and they do have the power to approve questions for a press event related to their show.  They do this all the time.  When reporters are given guest access to the sets, they have to sign NDAs and agree to keep secret as much info as the show who invited them want to keep secret.  HBO could even require review approval for any article before it goes to press, specially if the event is exclusive, or invite only.  If EW got this panel exclusively, then you bet these rules are in place, that is the price for exclusivity.  And anyone else invited from the press would have to abide by the same rules
   
• The answer about the statue is a lie.  This begs the question: why would the fan lie? From what I've read about this, this person has been a Sansa fan for a while and she was excitedly reporting the answers.  Maybe she thought, as has been suggested, that a statue of Sansa would mean Sansa as end Queen and she wanted other people to believe this, but I fail to see why a dedicated fan of the show would think statue = queen, instead of statue = death.  The other reason for a lie (that I can think of) is that the fan wanted to have a little fun with all the people that have been predicting Sansa's death for years now (some of whom are hardcore Sansa haters).  I find the latter more likely than the former, but I still think it's less likely than the first possibility (the answer about the statue is true). 
   
• The answer about the statue is true, the press did not report because the first source did not report it. I have not read all the articles about this event, so I don't know which media outlets were there, but, sometimes, one outlet quotes another in their reporting, if they couldn't be there themselves.  The story would read something like: "EW reports that ST took home one of Sansa's corsets" or "During a press event held by EW, ST revealed....".  If the outlet with the exclusivity did not report on something, other outlets won't report on it either (as they would base their reporting on the first one).  So, if EW really thought that the comment was not important, and they were the only outlet there, all other media reports on the event would be missing the same piece of information.

To me, the simpler explanation is that the fan was reporting the answers she heard as she heard them. The reason the statue answer was not reported by the media is up in the air.

The significance of Sansa having a statue is also up in the air, although I tend to think the likeliest explanation is that she is dead.  But if this statue is part of a time jump scene in the future, there could be statues for many other characters too.  We just don't know for sure that there are.

[GraceK]

This is pure speculation on my part based on frikis leaks, Set pic of kit and Lena in and this possible bombshell about this Sansa statue.

What if that early speculation about Sansa being captured at Winterfell was true and that’s what brings Jon to meet with Cersei? What if it’s Tyrions actions that ends up getting Sansa captured, ( not on purpose, but as a by product)and that’s the betrayal that leads to his execution?  It seemed far fetched  but now I’m not so sure. It could explain her presence at the Dragonpit if she’s already there as a prisoner, especially when Dany and other forces arrive to take out Cersei and maybe that’s when the big confrontation happens with Tyrion. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if BOTH Tyrion and Sansa end up captured because Cersei still hates her brother and is a snake like that. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the attack on Winterfell she takes that chance to grab them both. ?‍♀️ For Tyrion to be executed, something significant has to happen. Sansa inadvertently being killed as an indirect result of him trying to protect his family is fucked up enough that no one comes out of it feeling good. 

Just some thoughts .

[Sunshinegal]

Did anybody else except that one Sansa fan live tweet the event that is not part of any media outlet? 

Who knows if the statue has any significance.  It could just be for some promotional material.  idk.

I don't know if this means anything.  Or where this is going.  So far in the books, only Lady's bones have been sent to the crypts.  I doubt that Grey Wind's, Summer or Shaggydog's bones are in the crypts. 

I also don't think that Sansa will be the ruler of the North in the end.  My guess will be Bran will be the ruler of the North.

We also have to remember that Lyanna's statue is in the crypts and neither one of them were rulers.  Also, Robb was a ruler and I don't think there was a statue of him.

So statue doesn't necessarily mean ruler.  But I don't know if statue means dead either. 

[YaddaYadda]

33 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

So far in the books, only Lady's bones have been sent to the crypts.

Lady was not buried in the crypts. She was buried in the lichyard. Grey Wind died at the Twins and was beheaded, so chances are the body ended up in the Green Fork or in mass grave. Summer and Shaggydog are both still alive in the books.

Show!Summer though might end up wightified since he died north of the Wall. Him and Hodor both and I really hope we never see either as wights.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

But she couldn't know what would get reported by the media and what wouldn't.  As I understand it, this is a Sansa fan who was at the event and was live tweeting (or almost live tweeting) everything as it was happening.  She tweeted all the answers Sophie gave as she was giving them.  She had no way of knowing what the press would report of this event.

Later, when the press started publishing articles about this Q&A they reported all the same answers as the fan tweeted, but they never mentioned the statue. So, by reporting all the answers the fan tweeted, the press actually gave credibility to everything the fan had previously tweeted.

 

As I see it there are three possibilities here:

• The answer about the statue is true, the press did not report it at the request of HBO.  This is not as unlikely as people think it is, while it is true that HBO has no official power over the press, they do have the power to set the rules for press visits to filming locations and they do have the power to approve questions for a press event related to their show.  They do this all the time.  When reporters are given guest access to the sets, they have to sign NDAs and agree to keep secret as much info as the show who invited them want to keep secret.  HBO could even require review approval for any article before it goes to press, specially if the event is exclusive, or invite only.  If EW got this panel exclusively, then you bet these rules are in place, that is the price for exclusivity.  And anyone else invited from the press would have to abide by the same rules
   
• The answer about the statue is a lie.  This begs the question: why would the fan lie? From what I've read about this, this person has been a Sansa fan for a while and she was excitedly reporting the answers.  Maybe she thought, as has been suggested, that a statue of Sansa would mean Sansa as end Queen and she wanted other people to believe this, but I fail to see why a dedicated fan of the show would think statue = queen, instead of statue = death.  (...)
   
• The answer about the statue is true, the press did not report because the first source did not report it. I have not read all the articles about this event, so I don't know which media outlets were there, but, sometimes, one outlet quotes another in their reporting, if they couldn't be there themselves.  The story would read something like: "EW reports that ST took home one of Sansa's corsets" or "During a press event held by EW, ST revealed....".  If the outlet with the exclusivity did not report on something, other outlets won't report on it either (as they would base their reporting on the first one).  So, if EW really thought that the comment was not important, and they were the only outlet there, all other media reports on the event would be missing the same piece of information.

To me, the simpler explanation is that the fan was reporting the answers she heard as she heard them. The reason the statue answer was not reported by the media is up in the air.

The significance of Sansa having a statue is also up in the air, although I tend to think the likeliest explanation is that she is dead.  But if this statue is part of a time jump scene in the future, there could be statues for many other characters too.  We just don't know for sure that there are.

Naughtysansa is a big Sansa/Jonsa fan. As to why a hardcore Sansa/Jonsa fan would think “statue = queen” instead of “statue = death”? That seems straightforward to me.

It looks like there are multiple articles out there circulating different quotes from the same event, so they’re not all taking their cue from EW.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

This is pure speculation on my part based on frikis leaks, Set pic of kit and Lena in and this possible bombshell about this Sansa statue.

What if that early speculation about Sansa being captured at Winterfell was true and that’s what brings Jon to meet with Cersei? What if it’s Tyrions actions that ends up getting Sansa captured, ( not on purpose, but as a by product)and that’s the betrayal that leads to his execution?  It seemed far fetched  but now I’m not so sure. It could explain her presence at the Dragonpit if she’s already there as a prisoner, especially when Dany and other forces arrive to take out Cersei and maybe that’s when the big confrontation happens with Tyrion. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if BOTH Tyrion and Sansa end up captured because Cersei still hates her brother and is a snake like that. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the attack on Winterfell she takes that chance to grab them both. ?‍♀️ For Tyrion to be executed, something significant has to happen. Sansa inadvertently being killed as an indirect result of him trying to protect his family is fucked up enough that no one comes out of it feeling good. 

Just some thoughts .

According to Friki, Sansa is alive and present at Tyrion’s postwar trial. If Sansa dies, that means that Friki’s information is false and that there is not necessarily any Tyrion betrayal at all. And if Friki’s information is false because someone is stringing him along at HBO’s behest, then that means that Tyrion won’t be betraying anyone.

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

According to Friki, Sansa is alive and present at Tyrion’s postwar trial. If Sansa dies, that means that Friki’s information is false and that there is not necessarily any Tyrion betrayal at all. And if Friki’s information is false because someone is stringing him along at HBO’s behest, then that means that Tyrion won’t be betraying anyone.

Maybe I’m mixing up spoilers . Ack. Too much to keep track of and too long with NOTHING CONFIRMED!!’ This is driving me crazy. ?? no wonder I’m chasing shadows trying to make sense of things .

Edited October 10, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Fire wights can still have kids because magic. Seriously. 

If a fire wight has no blood flow but can still move around then it's safe to say that the rules of biology no longer apply to it. 

Fire wights are essentially animated zombies that don't eat, drink and sleep. How would they have children? What will the child of a zombie be like? GRRM's magic is not that fantastical. Even Dany is not fire proof in the books.

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

I disagree on this point, purely from a practical/TV-friendly perspective: if there was a distant epilogue, it would not surprise me if the showrunners wanted the statues to still look like the actors in order to register with the audience, even if that doesn’t strictly make sense in-universe.

Well, the Ned statue hardly looked like Ned and they even had an in show explanation that no one remembered what he looked like after a few years. If there is a statue of 20 year old Sansa in the crypts 80 years in the future they better point out the guy with the fantastical long term memory who still remembered what she looked like 80 years ago!

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I find it really difficult to believe that Sophie would tattoo the "the pack survives" if any of the remaining Starks die at the end of the story.

But then, by her own words, that would be not so nice:

Quote

"That would be terrible, if I got the ending tattooed on my body, just before the last season came out," she said. "That would be so stupid."

Maybe Sophie was being stupid and leaked a spoiler or the pack does not wholly survive. Of course she would be including Jon in the pack and he could be dying in the end.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

I don't know if there will be a baby. On the one hand it's the logical progression of the story (also because Jon and Dany have been shown ruling), on the other hand Martin did have Jon stabbed to death. Maybe the latter was merely to get Jon free from the Watch, but it remains a curious choice to do so while he also showed with Beric that such things come at a cost.

I doubt GRRM is going to end the Targaryens. They are a house that he likes to write about and finds fascinating - more than house Stark - and two of his central characters are Targaryens on whom he has spend several chapters building them up as leaders. If Jon and Dany both cannot have children, then that's the end of their house. And I don't think that's the case here.

And I come back once again to GRRM's words on it being a 'generational saga'. I do think there will be at least one baby in a dream of spring. And I don't think it is a Stark or Lannister baby. The concept of 'mother' has been closely linked to Dany.  Arya has also been shown to be maternal while taking care of children, like weasel, under her care.

So, even if Jon and Dany die here, I am pretty certain there's a kid. In which case, Jon is not coming back a fire wight.

Maybe he is changed in different ways - darker, morally grey, wolfish like the old king of winter. And that's what GRRM was talking about when he says that there are consequences to coming back alive. Jon is after all going to be spending some quality time in Ghost. I don't see Jon becoming immortal in any case. He would be coming back just to fight the WW and die.

Either way I don't see Jon spending any time in his old age in the WF crypts. His story is no longer about WF. The old Kings of Winter in the crypts reject him in his dreams and his story now has more to do with the WW and KL.

Edited October 10, 2018 by anamika

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe it’s a passive-aggressive expression of displeasure with the ending...? She has not seemed thrilled with the ending at all.

A passive-aggressive expression of displeasure that would PLEASE HBO, since it would mislead the fans about her ending? Tattooed permanently on her skin? (Yes, lasering off a tattoo is possible, but prolonged and painful).

That would be going WAY above and beyond the call of duty as an employee of HBO to help hide the ending. As an expression of displeasure with TPTB, it doesn't make any sense.

You say that Sophie gives things away easily, but "the pack survives" and Sansa's crypt statue can't both be true. Which one of those is a lie? IMO, it seems more likely that she'd lie about the statue than that she'd lie with her skin - a lie that would make her look like the ultimate corporate toady, willing to kiss up to HBO to the extent of giving them painful stretches of her epidermis to permanently engrave their false advertising in to hlep mislead the fans.

[anamika]

Here's Sophie explaining her tattoo on James Corden. People can come to their own conclusions on whether she gave out a spoiler or not:

Edited October 10, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

A passive-aggressive expression of displeasure that would PLEASE HBO, since it would mislead the fans about her ending? Tattooed permanently on her skin? (Yes, lasering off a tattoo is possible, but prolonged and painful).

That would be going WAY above and beyond the call of duty as an employee of HBO to help hide the ending. As an expression of displeasure with TPTB, it doesn't make any sense.

You say that Sophie gives things away easily, but "the pack survives" and Sansa's crypt statue can't both be true. Which one of those is a lie? IMO, it seems more likely that she'd lie about the statue than that she'd lie with her skin - a lie that would make her look like the ultimate corporate toady, willing to kiss up to HBO to the extent of giving them painful stretches of her epidermis to permanently engrave their false advertising in to hlep mislead the fans.

The line is from S7, which may well represent Sansa’s high point as a character if she indeed dies in S8. Maisie Williams got a “No one” tattoo even though Arya definitively rejected being “no one” in S6. In Maisie’s case, her tattoo wasn’t some sort of prophetic statement as to Arya’s endgame, so I don’t know why Sophie’s would be.

If Sophie was accidentally giving away that she filmed in Croatia, casually talking about smoking weed with Maisie in the same Q&A session, and frantically backtracking and “talking really quickly,” it seems much more likely that she gave away something big with her statue comment.

And even assuming I’m wrong in my belief that GOT folks clamped down on any media mention of the statue, and I don’t think I am, what does the fact that there’s a statue of Sansa at the end of GOT suggest to most dedicated fans who aren’t emotionally invested in a Queen Sansa outcome?

It’s worth reminding everyone that the 1993 outline strongly implied Sansa died, and GRRM left Sansa off his list of safe Starks in that outline. Did he change his mind about her survival in the intervening 20+ years? Maybe not.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

This is pure speculation on my part based on frikis leaks, Set pic of kit and Lena in and this possible bombshell about this Sansa statue.

What if that early speculation about Sansa being captured at Winterfell was true and that’s what brings Jon to meet with Cersei? What if it’s Tyrions actions that ends up getting Sansa captured, ( not on purpose, but as a by product)and that’s the betrayal that leads to his execution?  It seemed far fetched  but now I’m not so sure. It could explain her presence at the Dragonpit if she’s already there as a prisoner, especially when Dany and other forces arrive to take out Cersei and maybe that’s when the big confrontation happens with Tyrion. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if BOTH Tyrion and Sansa end up captured because Cersei still hates her brother and is a snake like that. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the attack on Winterfell she takes that chance to grab them both. ?‍♀️ For Tyrion to be executed, something significant has to happen. Sansa inadvertently being killed as an indirect result of him trying to protect his family is fucked up enough that no one comes out of it feeling good. 

Just some thoughts .

If you're going to believe in the Tyrion betrayal then you're going to have to believe that Sansa survives to the end too as Friki said that Sansa does not die.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Fire wights are essentially animated zombies that don't eat, drink and sleep. How would they have children? What will the child of a zombie be like? GRRM's magic is not that fantastical. Even Dany is not fire proof in the books.

Well, the Ned statue hardly looked like Ned and they even had an in show explanation that no one remembered what he looked like after a few years. If there is a statue of 20 year old Sansa in the crypts 80 years in the future they better point out the guy with the fantastical long term memory who still remembered what she looked like 80 years ago!

But then, by her own words, that would be not so nice:

Maybe Sophie was being stupid and leaked a spoiler or the pack does not wholly survive. Of course she would be including Jon in the pack and he could be dying in the end.

I doubt GRRM is going to end the Targaryens. They are a house that he likes to write about and finds fascinating - more than house Stark - and two of his central characters are Targaryens on whom he has spend several chapters building them up as leaders. If Jon and Dany both cannot have children, then that's the end of their house. And I don't think that's the case here.

And I come back once again to GRRM's words on it being a 'generational saga'. I do think there will be at least one baby in a dream of spring. And I don't think it is a Stark or Lannister baby. The concept of 'mother' has been closely linked to Dany.  Arya has also been shown to be maternal while taking care of children, like weasel, under her care.

So, even if Jon and Dany die here, I am pretty certain there's a kid. In which case, Jon is not coming back a fire wight.

Maybe he is changed in different ways - darker, morally grey, wolfish like the old king of winter. And that's what GRRM was talking about when he says that there are consequences to coming back alive. Jon is after all going to be spending some quality time in Ghost. I don't see Jon becoming immortal in any case. He would be coming back just to fight the WW and die.

Either way I don't see Jon spending any time in his old age in the WF crypts. His story is no longer about WF. The old Kings of Winter in the crypts reject him in his dreams and his story now has more to do with the WW and KL.

Yes, GRRM is actually that fantastical. Did you forget about Euron Greyjoy who is a pirate wizard trying to become a god?  Or his Frankenstein monster called Robert Strong?

 

Seriously, this is a story with gods, dragons, zombies, magic, ice demons and skinchangers.

 

----------

 

Anyways about House Targaryen dying completely. It's possible. I'd give it 50-50. 

Here's what GRRM has said about stuff like that: 

GRRM: " I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has."

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The line is from S7, which may well represent Sansa’s high point as a character if she indeed dies in S8. Maisie Williams got a “No one” tattoo even though Arya definitively rejected being “no one” in S6. In Maisie’s case, her tattoo wasn’t some sort of prophetic statement as to Arya’s endgame, so I don’t know why Sophie’s would be.

If Sophie was accidentally giving away that she filmed in Croatia, casually talking about smoking weed with Maisie in the same Q&A session, and frantically backtracking and “talking really quickly,” it seems much more likely that she gave away something big with her statue comment.

And even assuming I’m wrong in my belief that GOT folks clamped down on any media mention of the statue, and I don’t think I am, what does the fact that there’s a statue of Sansa at the end of GOT suggest to most dedicated fans who aren’t emotionally invested in a Queen Sansa outcome?

It’s worth reminding everyone that the 1993 outline strongly implied Sansa died, and GRRM left Sansa off his list of safe Starks in that outline. Did he change his mind about her survival in the intervening 20+ years? Maybe not.

It just sounds like you don't want Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell. You've jumped from Sansa being dead to her being Tyrion's wife and Lady of Casterly Rock to her being dead again.

The evidence feels like grasping straws. I don't even think the outline strongly implied that Sansa died and even if it did, the outline also strongly implied that Tyrion lived and that Jon x Arya were endgame.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Yes, GRRM is actually that fantastical. Did you forget about Euron Greyjoy who is a pirate wizard trying to become a god?  Or his Frankenstein monster called Robert Strong?

And? Is Euron going to become a God? Is Qyburn making Frankenstein using magic?

I mean if anything can happen because magic, why not let the zombie wights on the show also procreate and make baby wights.

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Anyways about House Targaryen dying completely. It's possible. I'd give it 50-50. 

Here's what GRRM has said about stuff like that: 

GRRM: " I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has."

I doubt ending house Targaryen is a twilight/sunset moment for him. Rather A Song of Ice and Fire seems to be about the Targaryens coming back to power by defeating an apocalyptic threat. House Targaryen was basically eliminated at the start of the series and we start the books with the Starks, Baratheons and Lannisters in power. But as the books proceed, it's the other houses that are destroying each other while the Targaryens slowly rise to power. And at the very end, GRRM just kills off the house?

It's going to be even worse on the show if Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Jon and Dany all die. Both house Lannister and Targaryen gone. House Tyrell and Martell gone. What is sweet in all this? That true leader Sansa, FM assassin Arya and 3ER Bran survive?

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

It just sounds like you don't want Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell. You've jumped from Sansa being dead to her being Tyrion's wife and Lady of Casterly Rock to her being dead again.

I don't know why you keep repeating this. You seem to be taking it as a personal affront when speculation on the part of a few posters here leads to Sansa not being Lady of Winterfell in the future.  It looks like you think that Jon/Dany are going to die. Does that mean you want them to die?

Speculation about Sansa ending up as Tyrion's wife, lady of Casterly Rock, Vale etc. is because her character is connected with these characters and plots more than she is connected with WF in the books.

Going by the books, my speculation is that Sansa is not going to end up in Winterfell. Her story is in the south, intertwined with LF, and it will end there. She is married to Tyrion and disinherited from inheriting WF. She is the Stark least connected with the North and WF in the books. Even in book 5, the North plot revolves around Arya, Rickon and Jon. Even without Arya and Rickon physically present in the North, the plot is still about the Northerners trying to save them and get back WF for them. In Arya's chapters we often see her recall the WF smallfolk, the Northern lords, the old ways and Ned. We see Jon be very involved in Northern politics and defense. Davos is on his way to go get Rickon. Bran basically spend a book ruling Winterfell.

Sansa still has a lot of book plot left where she has to outwit a very clever man in LF and get control of the Vale. She is just starting her story there - the last we saw of her, she was still getting manipulated by LF and busy plotting with him. In the books, no one can currently go North with an army. Sansa is not going North in the books. But the North may go to her, when it falls and everyone flees south. As per the show, WF does fall and everyone - including Sansa - ends up going south with the major, final battle happening in KL. 

On the show itself, Sansa has no more plot left in WF other than perhaps suggest that Jon/Dany marry because LF mentioned it to her. And everything she did there in the last three seasons, other than killing LF, was plot borrowed from book Jeyne, Theon, Jon, Stannis, Arya and Alys. Any other plot she has left - Vale or Cersei - is in the south.

GRRM has given no build up at all to Sansa ending up in charge of Winterfell.  Sansa wants to go back home after rejecting it in book one. But does that mean it will happen at the end? Dany also wants a home with a red door and a loving family. Jon also wants home and a family. Tyrion wants to die in his bed of old age with a belly full of wine and 'a maiden's mouth around my cock', Arya wants to be with her family once again, Bran wishes he could walk again. Will they get what they want at the end? We will have to see.

Making alliances through marriage is also important so it could be that Sansa marries for political reasons instead of love - considering she loves the Hound in the books and that's been nixed on the show. Marriage and romance are big parts of Sansa's arc in the books and I would expect that to have a bearing on her ending.

A Sansa-Cersei reckoning is still possible, but the only problem I see is that the prophecy seems to specify that it's a younger, more beautiful Queen, and Sansa is not a queen. But if it does not need to be a queen, then it could be Sansa who takes down Cersei. I think Cersei is long gone in the books before Dany gets to Westeros. With Varys killing Kevan, Lannister power in KL is fading and fAegon is waiting in the wings. If we get another dance of dragons it could be between fAegon and Dany for the Iron Throne. GRRM has hinted that we will see LF vs Varys in the books, so it's possible we see Sansa and Cersei facing off towards the end of this final season.

Edited October 10, 2018 by anamika

[screamin]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Sophie was accidentally giving away that she filmed in Croatia, casually talking about smoking weed with Maisie in the same Q&A session, and frantically backtracking and “talking really quickly,” it seems much more likely that she gave away something big with her statue comment.

The fan who heard her say it only said she was talking very quickly when she was saying it - didn't say whether she started talking fast when saying it wasn't a spoiler or whether she was talking fast through the whole thing about the statue. One could read it as you did, or read it as Sophie realizing she'd forgotten to drop a tiresome fake spoiler which is so much less fun than stories about getting high with her BFF costar in the tub (whether they're true or not) and getting it over with in such a hurry that the one person in the whole audience who heard it wasn't sure if she got some of it right and the news media present didn't catch it at all. We shall see. (Has the video gone public yet?)

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

It just sounds like you don't want Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell.

You got me! I don't want Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell so, so badly that I forced GRRM to write an outline 25 years ago implying Sansa wouldn't survive, I forced the media to leak that outline, I forced Sophie to say there was a statue of Sansa at the end of GOT, I forced Naughtysansa to write about it on Twitter, and I forced all the media outlets not to breathe a word of it despite reporting on the other GOT comments Naughtysansa live tweeted. I've been so busy, you guys! What a ride!

Quote

I don't even think the outline strongly implied that Sansa died

I'm afraid it does. Not only is Sansa omitted from the list of "safe characters" who will grow from childhood to adulthood, changing Westeros and themselves in the process, etc. etc, a list which includes three Starks but excludes her, the outline also states Tyrion winds up in exile from KL, where Sansa is, and "makes common cause with the surviving Starks," which means necessarily that Sansa didn't survive. 

I'd also remind you that every character who died in the outline died in the published books, even if the manner of their death differed.

Quote

the outline also strongly implied that Tyrion lived and that Jon x Arya were endgame.

The outline didn't "strongly imply" that Tyrion lived, the outline flat out stated that he would. Yet another reason why Friki's information is bullshit, but I digress.

Quote

and that Jon x Arya were endgame.

It didn't actually imply that, though, just that their mutual passion would torment them until Jon's true parentage was revealed in the third volume. You can read that as implying endgame, but it's open to other interpretations.

1 hour ago, screamin said:

The fan who heard her say it only said she was talking very quickly when she was saying it - didn't say whether she started talking fast when saying it wasn't a spoiler or whether she was talking fast through the whole thing about the statue. One could read it as you did, or read it as Sophie realizing she'd forgotten to drop a tiresome fake spoiler which is so much less fun than stories about getting high with her BFF costar in the tub (whether they're true or not) and getting it over with in such a hurry that the one person in the whole audience who heard it wasn't sure if she got some of it right and the news media present didn't catch it at all. We shall see. (Has the video gone public yet?)

Okay, so you're saying Sophie was talking quickly not because she was trying to cover up a spoiler, but because she was trying to squeeze in one last fake spoiler she had been ordered to spill and was running out of time? And that James Hibberd, HBO's stooge at EW, wrote a whole article about which prop Sophie took home from the set but somehow failed to slip that little fake spoiler in? Gotcha.

I don't think there will be any video of the event. It was an intimate Q&A session, not a panel with multiple guests. If there were video clips, they probably would have dropped already: the event Sophie did with her Dark Phoenix costars the day before the Q&A session is already on Youtube.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

I don't see what purpose Sansa's death would serve, but I can't wait the show to be over so I don't have to listen to these tedious debates over Sansa's endgame and GRRM's original outline. There are exemples where GRRM explicitly lied to fans*** so I don't see why should we trust him that he had the same plan for this story since 1993. I think he said that just because it makes him look smart.  And I don't think that outline is clear on Sansa's endgame, especially since it is clear that Sansa, Jaime, Cersei, Arya and many others were completely different characters. Tyrion wasn't even a dwarf in that outline and that is the most important part of his character now. So yeah, GRRM planned it LOL. He is not even able to plan Act 2. It is easier for me to believe that Rowling knew that Nagini was human once for 20 years, than to believe in GRRM's plans. And I don't trust Rowling at all. 

Sansa's death in the context of the show doesn't make much sense, like death of any other Stark at this point, except maybe Bran's if he doesn't become human again, so are there some arguments from the show or we are going to use that outline from 1993 only?

What GRRM said about characters that  will grow from childhood to adulthood, doesn't matter because it's not even an argument to say that Sansa is more important than Bran in GoT and we saw her going from childhood to adulthood, not Bran. His character development was forced my magic, he is not even human anymore. 

So again, what is the point of Sansa's death? Just shock value and nothing else. 

 

***when he said that there are 5 shows in development which is not true anymore and he knew that before Emmys, but he likes to pretend he is relevant and that he is working hard on GoT universe, or when he said that D&D could adapt AFFC and ADWD in 3 seasons and that he has years before they catch up with him, even if he at that point has read S5 outline and knew that wasn't true

Edited October 10, 2018 by nikma

[GraceK]

25 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

I don't see what purpose Sansa's death would serve, but I can't wait the show to be over so I don't have to listen to these tedious debates over Sansa's endgame and GRRM's original outline.

 

Me too. You would think Sansa is the most important person in the series and who the show and books are about the way almost every debate comes back to her somehow. ?

Edited October 10, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

I still don't get the controversy around that character every season. People where theorizing about her death for 2 or 3 seasons now. Why is her death so appealing? I really don't get it. For 3 seasons now we have these theories how Sansa will either die or betray her family and that never happens. I don't think S8 will be any different. The way I see it and the way show portrayed her character she is a survivor. That's the whole point of her character. So why would they kill her now? And who is going to kill Sansa? Tyrion? Cersei? The Night King? Every death option feels pointless and forced for shock value. 

Some people just what her dead for some reason(so Arya could be Lady of WF?) and that's it, but I don't see what purpose that serves. 

Her story for 7 seasons was about surviving and becoming stronger. And culmination of that is what? Her death? Lol

I even think that Arya's death makes more sense than Sansa's, since death was very important theme of Arya's storyline since S1. And I don't think that either of them will die, just to be claer. 

[Lady Iris]

17 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Show!Summer though might end up wightified since he died north of the Wall. Him and Hodor both and I really hope we never see either as wights.

Ohh, that'd be...oh no no no.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Ohh, that'd be...oh no no no.

That would have been better to see in Beyond the wall instead of the dumbass Wight polar bear. It would have been so much more powerful to see Jon fighting a wight dire wolf he knew . They missed an opportunity unless they are saving it for S8

Edited October 10, 2018 by GraceK

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think there will be any video of the event. It was an intimate Q&A session, not a panel with multiple guests. If there were video clips, they probably would have dropped already: the event Sophie did with her Dark Phoenix costars the day before the Q&A session is already on Youtube.

An intimate Q & A session that was loud and public enough that one fan (but only ONE fan) heard a hot spoiler but no other fan or anyone else present at it was interested enough to record? Gotcha.

[WindyNights]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

And? Is Euron going to become a God? Is Qyburn making Frankenstein using magic?

I mean if anything can happen because magic, why not let the zombie wights on the show also procreate and make baby wights.

I doubt ending house Targaryen is a twilight/sunset moment for him. Rather A Song of Ice and Fire seems to be about the Targaryens coming back to power by defeating an apocalyptic threat. House Targaryen was basically eliminated at the start of the series and we start the books with the Starks, Baratheons and Lannisters in power. But as the books proceed, it's the other houses that are destroying each other while the Targaryens slowly rise to power. And at the very end, GRRM just kills off the house?

It's going to be even worse on the show if Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Jon and Dany all die. Both house Lannister and Targaryen gone. House Tyrell and Martell gone. What is sweet in all this? That true leader Sansa, FM assassin Arya and 3ER Bran survive?

I don't know why you keep repeating this. You seem to be taking it as a personal affront when speculation on the part of a few posters here leads to Sansa not being Lady of Winterfell in the future.  It looks like you think that Jon/Dany are going to die. Does that mean you want them to die?

Speculation about Sansa ending up as Tyrion's wife, lady of Casterly Rock, Vale etc. is because her character is connected with these characters and plots more than she is connected with WF in the books.

Going by the books, my speculation is that Sansa is not going to end up in Winterfell. Her story is in the south, intertwined with LF, and it will end there. She is married to Tyrion and disinherited from inheriting WF. She is the Stark least connected with the North and WF in the books. Even in book 5, the North plot revolves around Arya, Rickon and Jon. Even without Arya and Rickon physically present in the North, the plot is still about the Northerners trying to save them and get back WF for them. In Arya's chapters we often see her recall the WF smallfolk, the Northern lords, the old ways and Ned. We see Jon be very involved in Northern politics and defense. Davos is on his way to go get Rickon. Bran basically spend a book ruling Winterfell.

Sansa still has a lot of book plot left where she has to outwit a very clever man in LF and get control of the Vale. She is just starting her story there - the last we saw of her, she was still getting manipulated by LF and busy plotting with him. In the books, no one can currently go North with an army. Sansa is not going North in the books. But the North may go to her, when it falls and everyone flees south. As per the show, WF does fall and everyone - including Sansa - ends up going south with the major, final battle happening in KL. 

On the show itself, Sansa has no more plot left in WF other than perhaps suggest that Jon/Dany marry because LF mentioned it to her. And everything she did there in the last three seasons, other than killing LF, was plot borrowed from book Jeyne, Theon, Jon, Stannis, Arya and Alys. Any other plot she has left - Vale or Cersei - is in the south.

GRRM has given no build up at all to Sansa ending up in charge of Winterfell.  Sansa wants to go back home after rejecting it in book one. But does that mean it will happen at the end? Dany also wants a home with a red door and a loving family. Jon also wants home and a family. Tyrion wants to die in his bed of old age with a belly full of wine and 'a maiden's mouth around my cock', Arya wants to be with her family once again, Bran wishes he could walk again. Will they get what they want at the end? We will have to see.

Making alliances through marriage is also important so it could be that Sansa marries for political reasons instead of love - considering she loves the Hound in the books and that's been nixed on the show. Marriage and romance are big parts of Sansa's arc in the books and I would expect that to have a bearing on her ending.

A Sansa-Cersei reckoning is still possible, but the only problem I see is that the prophecy seems to specify that it's a younger, more beautiful Queen, and Sansa is not a queen. But if it does not need to be a queen, then it could be Sansa who takes down Cersei. I think Cersei is long gone in the books before Dany gets to Westeros. With Varys killing Kevan, Lannister power in KL is fading and fAegon is waiting in the wings. If we get another dance of dragons it could be between fAegon and Dany for the Iron Throne. GRRM has hinted that we will see LF vs Varys in the books, so it's possible we see Sansa and Cersei facing off towards the end of this final season.

Euron? Probably not but Bran is.

And yes, Qyburn made Robert Strong using magic. He's a necromancer.

Well UnBeric probably could pop out a few kids. Dunno about Ice wights.

Like I said on the Targaryens, I give it 50-50. I don't see Jon dying and I do see a baby coming out but I don't see Daenerys making it and I'm not sure Jon is going to proclaim himself as Aegon Targaryen at the end.

House Tyrell won't be gone in the books at least. There's too many of them and all spread out. The season 7 outline even originally had Olenna trying to set up a betrothal between a Tyrell and Daenerys.

On Sansa getting Winterfell, it's almost the only way that it can go even in the show. Bran says he can't be lord of anything so he gave it up and Arya's already said that Sansa makes a better lady than herself so she had to become something else. If we're going with a similar outcome between show and books then that's the way it'll stay and friki already stated that Sansa lives. Not to mention that I don't see a natural endpoint for Sansa that involves her death at this point. 

Who is going to kill her? A wight? Cersei? The Night King?

 

Anyways, Book Sansa is going North. It'll be at Winterfell where she takes down Littlefinger.

-----------

Ghost of High Heart:

"I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." 

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

You got me! I don't want Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell so, so badly that I forced GRRM to write an outline 25 years ago implying Sansa wouldn't survive, I forced the media to leak that outline, I forced Sophie to say there was a statue of Sansa at the end of GOT, I forced Naughtysansa to write about it on Twitter, and I forced all the media outlets not to breathe a word of it despite reporting on the other GOT comments Naughtysansa live tweeted. I've been so busy, you guys! What a ride!

I'm afraid it does. Not only is Sansa omitted from the list of "safe characters" who will grow from childhood to adulthood, changing Westeros and themselves in the process, etc. etc, a list which includes three Starks but excludes her, the outline also states Tyrion winds up in exile from KL, where Sansa is, and "makes common cause with the surviving Starks," which means necessarily that Sansa didn't survive. 

I'd also remind you that every character who died in the outline died in the published books, even if the manner of their death differed.

The outline didn't "strongly imply" that Tyrion lived, the outline flat out stated that he would. Yet another reason why Friki's information is bullshit, but I digress.

It didn't actually imply that, though, just that their mutual passion would torment them until Jon's true parentage was revealed in the third volume. You can read that as implying endgame, but it's open to other interpretations.

But you're choosing to ignore credible leaks from friki while jumping on more ambiguous things to make some assumptions that you prefer.

Robb is a Stark, Ned is a Stark, and Catelyn is a Stark. Surviving Starks doesn't necessarily imply that Sansa didn't survive.

Also if you read the context of the outline, GRRM was talking about POVs and that those 5 were his main characters. It doesn't seem that Sansa was a POV in the outline and she wasn't a main character.

And yet, Tyrion dies in the story but lives in the outline if Friki is to be believed.

So Arya x Jon as endgame is open to other interpretations but Sansa having a statue isn't?

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

And I don't think that outline is clear on Sansa's endgame

I believe the outline is very clear on implying Sansa's death at the time in 1993. The only remaining question is whether he decided to spare her in the intervening 20+ years. If he planned on killing her off, and I don't think there's much of an "if" there, I doubt he ever changed his mind.

One of the reasons I have speculated about Sansa ending up at Casterly Rock or at the Vale as Tyrion or Robin's/Harry's wife is that it would give GRRM an out to remove her from possible succession to Winterfell to clear the way for whomever he intended to get it while sparing Sansa's life. It would be a way for Sansa to survive without interfering with his endgame plan for Winterfell which did not include her. With that said, the easiest thing for GRRM to do would be to kill her off and clear up any possible ambiguity, and that may well be what he is planning on doing. (Ditto for Tyrion and Sansa's marriage.)

Sansa's role has been altered in the TV show significantly past Season 4, and D&D have adoringly framed Sansa as a political mastermind (arguably at the expense of other characters), but I dunno. They loved Richard Madden's take on Robb and beefed up Robb's role in the show at Catelyn's expense, but Robb still wound up just as dead.

2 hours ago, nikma said:

The way I see it and the way show portrayed her character she is a survivor.

Everyone's "a survivor." Any character who's still alive by Season 8 is by definition "a survivor." Any character who is still alive in the show has survived some combination of sexual assault, emotional abuse, imprisonment, permanently disabling injury, mutilation, disfigurement, betrayal, torture, psychological trauma, and tremendous personal loss to make it to that point. The mere fact of having done so doesn't make any of them safe heading into the home stretch.

24 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Robb is a Stark, Ned is a Stark, and Catelyn is a Stark. Surviving Starks doesn't necessarily imply that Sansa didn't survive.

If Tyrion makes common cause with the "surviving Starks" in exile in the North, and Sansa is not one of them, then that automatically means that she didn't survive. 

Quote

And yet, Tyrion dies in the story but lives in the outline if Friki is to be believed.

Friki isn't to be believed for a number of reasons that have been discussed upthread. The outline is one counterargument, but by no means the only one.

Quote

So Arya x Jon as endgame is open to other interpretations but Sansa having a statue isn't?

Yes, because there is only one reason a young Stark character (in a show where dead Starks get statues in their honour) would get a statue in their perfect likeness at the end of the show, barring a huge time jump, and there are multiple reasons why Jon and Arya wouldn't have ended up together despite discovering that they are not related in the last (as then planned) volume of the series.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I believe the outline is very clear on implying Sansa's death at the time in 1993.

It's not very clear, becuase he never said that in his outline. And as WindyNights Robb, Ned and Cat are dead. So when GRRM speaks about surviving Starks it could mean the rest of the pack.

 

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

the easiest thing for GRRM to do would be to kill her off

The easiest thing for GRRM to do is to give her WF and not to kill her only for shock value, as you are suggesting, because Sansa is the only one of the Stark kids who is learinng from a politician. The whole point of Vale arc is to prepare her to rule. Arya arc is not about ruling. Or Bran's. 

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Everyone's "a survivor."

Not everyone.  They mentioned that specific word many times in her scenes since S2. And again, what is the point of her death? What purpose that serves? After everything that we saw from her in the last 7 seasons, culmination of her storyline is what? Her death. I know you don't like Sansa, but her death makes no sense, it's completely pointless. You just want it to hapen for some reason, while you completely ignore the show and use some other arguments that has nothing to do with Benioff and Weiss' story. 

[nikma]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If Tyrion makes common cause with the "surviving Starks" in exile in the North, and Sansa is not one of them, then that automatically means that she didn't survive. 

It means that only if you want it do means that. He never said who are the  Starks left in the story.  It's just an adjective in outline that wasn't written to be analyzed to death 25 years later. And again GRRM and planning don't go together. Instead of trying to analyze his words from 1993, maybe we should analyze Benioff and Weiss' story and see if Sansa's death makes any sense in their story and what is the ending that makes the most sense for her character. 

 

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Friki isn't to be believed for a number of reasons that have been discussed upthread.

He may be wrong, but he is far more reliable than some random person on twitter that is the only source of that info. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, nikma said:

It's not very clear, becuase he never said that in his outline. And as WindyNights Robb, Ned and Cat are dead. So when GRRM speaks about surviving Starks it could mean the rest of the pack.

Yes, he never said that, thus why I said he implied it. He did say that Outline Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the succession to claim the throne, which would include first and foremost Outline Sansa's son, and that's the last we hear of Sansa in the outline, while Tyrion on the other hand is framed for those murders, winds up in exile, makes common cause with "the surviving Starks" to bring down his family, falls hopelessly in love with Arya, strikes up a rivalry with Jon, blah blah blah. For Sansa to be one of the "surviving" Starks who makes common cause with Tyrion, she would have had to escape with him, but there's no mention of her doing so. That doesn't state "Sansa dies," no, but it sure as heck strongly implies it.

13 minutes ago, nikma said:

It's not very clear, becuase he never said that in his outline. And as WindyNights Robb, Ned and Cat are dead. So when GRRM speaks about surviving Starks it could mean the rest of the pack.

Tyrion can't make "common cause" with Sansa unless she's up North with the rest of them, and she never escaped KL, so yes, the outline strongly implies that she died when Outline Jaime murdered everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to claim the throne.

8 minutes ago, nikma said:

It means that only if you want it do means that. He never said that they are the only Starks left in the story.  It's just an adjective in outline of failed story that wasn't written to be analyzed to death 25 years later. 

Yes, we all know how careless and sloppy GRRM is in choosing his words, being a professional writer and all.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

So your only argument for Sansa's death is your interpretation of Martin's 25 years old outline and not something from  actual TV show that was written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss? Sansa whose main theme in the show was that she is survivor will die at the end... Why? And how? And how death even makes sense as her endgame?

And you know very well even if Martin explicitly wrote that Sansa dies in 1993, it still means nothing for the show and even his books, because almost everything is completely different from that outline. Or we should expect Jaime to become king? 

Edited October 10, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

43 minutes ago, nikma said:

The easiest thing for GRRM to do is to give her WF

You don't need the outline to know that Sansa is not going to get Winterfell. She lost her direwolf, the living embodiment of her connection to the North, the old gods, and her identity as a Stark, in AGOT, and she was disinherited in ASOS. The outline once leaked simply confirmed what many fans had already intuited from those developments.

24 minutes ago, nikma said:

So your only argument for Sansa's death is your interpretation of Martin's 25 years old outline and not something from  actual TV show that was written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss?

Whatever D&D think about Sansa, they're going to write GRRM's ending for her. GRRM apparently planned on killing her off in 1993 and it's unlikely that he changed his mind.

Quote

And how? And how death even makes sense as her endgame?

I suppose that's up to GRRM to figure out.

24 minutes ago, nikma said:

because almost everything is completely different from that outline

That is simply not correct.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has given no build up at all to Sansa ending up in charge of Winterfell.  Sansa wants to go back home after rejecting it in book one. But does that mean it will happen at the end? Dany also wants a home with a red door and a loving family. Jon also wants home and a family. Tyrion wants to die in his bed of old age with a belly full of wine and 'a maiden's mouth around my cock', Arya wants to be with her family once again, Bran wishes he could walk again. Will they get what they want at the end? We will have to see.

The red door serves the same function as Sansa's dreams about courtly romances in the south. It's a fantasy that will not be realized. GRRM said we will see more of these doors in her POV in Winds. This suggests that Dany is going to be even further removed from reality. 

Sansa has readjusted her dreams. In the books she just wants to return to WF. She has modest expectations. These are more likely to be achieved. 

Dany has not had a similar adjustment:

Quote

She tried to imagine what it would feel like, when she first caught sight of the land she was born to rule. It will be as fair a shore as I have ever seen, I know it. How could it be otherwise? - Daenerys, ASOS

Even by Book 5 she still thinks that the Seven Kingdoms are places where knights go on quests to prove themselves worthy of the maiden they love. A land she was born to rule, with a light shining in every window of the Red Keep, and the common people supporting her. These are thoughts that Book 1 Sansa would have and are therefore unlikely to come true.

The red door dream of her living a simple farmer's life is also less likely to come true as long as she has dragons. It is interesting that in the books, the red door could either refer to the Red Keep or to Dragonstone. These castles are also described as a beast/dragon and the door as entering the dragon's mouth. So just like Sansa was violently jolted out of her fantasies, I suspect Dany will be too. The red door (fantasy) could mean Dany being eaten by her own dragons (reality). Or if not literally eaten, metaphorically consumed by power. 

And as far as pregnancy goes, I do think Mirri made a judgment call as a healer. Dany is incapable of carrying a pregnancy to term. If she suddenly had a living child it would be like Bran magically walking again. She's the mother of dragons, and dragons are not people. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[BadAssRobinArryn]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

 It is easier for me to believe that Rowling knew that Nagini was human once for 20 years, than to believe in GRRM's plans. And I don't trust Rowling at all.  

 

Off Topic, but I'm inclined to believe JK Rowling. Mostly because Nagini was literally named after someone who was half-human and half-snake.

3 hours ago, nikma said:

I still don't get the controversy around that character every season. People where theorizing about her death for 2 or 3 seasons now. Why is her death so appealing? I really don't get it. For 3 seasons now we have these theories how Sansa will either die or betray her family and that never happens. I don't think S8 will be any different. The way I see it and the way show portrayed her character she is a survivor. That's the whole point of her character. So why would they kill her now? And who is going to kill Sansa? Tyrion? Cersei? The Night King? Every death option feels pointless and forced for shock value.  

Well, I think this is tied to the outline. I agree that the outline implies, that Sansa dies. So that's where the speculations are coming from. Outline doesn't mention Sansa among the survivors and so Ppeople are literally waiting for her death.  

That said, why does every death has to have a purpose? Wouldn't it be already a purpose to show how a promising young life gets destroyed?

With the White Walkers marching beyond the Wall, it would be a cop-out if they only killed supporting characters and villains. Someone major on the "good" side has to get it. I actually don't think it's Sansa (or at least I didn't before Sophie's comment about the statue), but she's as likely a candidate as anyone else among the main characters.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I believe the outline is very clear on implying Sansa's death at the time in 1993. The only remaining question is whether he decided to spare her in the intervening 20+ years. If he planned on killing her off, and I don't think there's much of an "if" there, I doubt he ever changed his mind. 

 

Here's a reason why he could have changed his mind: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/entertainment/interviews/a37208/arya-stark-maisie-williams-killed-off-game-thrones/  

Sure, it was certainly said in jest by his wife, but isn't it really impossible that he spared Sansa as a favour for his wife? Besides, 20 years are a lot of time to overthink some decisions.

But I have another Question: Has anyone heard anything about Hannah Murray filming in Spain? Because it seems that many People assume that Gilly will survive, but I have big doubts. Little Sam, yes. But he could literally be saved by Sam or anyone else.

Edited October 10, 2018 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Sunshinegal]

19 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

On Sansa getting Winterfell, it's almost the only way that it can go even in the show. Bran says he can't be lord of anything so he gave it up and Arya's already said that Sansa makes a better lady than herself so she had to become something else. If we're going with a similar outcome between show and books then that's the way it'll stay and friki already stated that Sansa lives. Not to mention that I don't see a natural endpoint for Sansa that involves her death at this point. 

From the books it seems that Bran didn't think he was good enough to be a lord (because of his accident) and Arya didn't think she was good enough to be a lady (because she didn't fit a narrow definition of what a lady should be like).  I think the definition of what a knight, lord and lady will change after the threats to Westeros have been eliminated. 

I don't think any of the Starklings will die.  I do think Sansa/Arya/Bran are all important and that they each have a different skillset that complements each other.  I think Littlefinger's trial is the Stark wolfpack working together. 

I do think that Bran will be the ruler of Winterfell in the end.  I think that Bran is also more worried about the Night King and the threat he imposes as he should be. 

In the books, I don't see Sansa as ruling a region (even though she will step up if she needed to).  I feel that Sansa just wants to be loved for herself and not be used for her claim to Winterfell (the Lannisters, Tyrells and Littlefinger are all using her for her claim).  I don't think Sansa seeks or wants to wield power.  That's not the impression I get from the books.  From the books the impression I get is that she wants to be loved and wants to go home.  I think that after Sansa sees the abuses of power and how people play the game to get power that she wants to stay as far away from it as possible. 

 

33 minutes ago, screamin said:

An intimate Q & A session that was loud and public enough that one fan (but only ONE fan) heard a hot spoiler but no other fan or anyone else present at it was interested enough to record? Gotcha.

I need at least one more person to verify this information.  And if the twitter fan says that Sophie was talking really fast, maybe the twitter fan misheard what she was saying. 

 

Just now, nikma said:

The easiest thing for GRRM to do is to give her WF and not to kill her only for shock value, as you are suggesting, because Sansa is the only one of the Stark kids who is learinng from a politician. The whole point of Vale arc is to prepare her to rule. Arya arc is not about ruling. Or Bran's. 

Not everyone.  They mentioned that specific word many times in her scenes since S2. And again, what is the point of her death? What purpose that serves? After everything that we saw from her in the last 7 seasons, culmination of her storyline is what? Her death. I know you don't like Sansa, but her death makes no sense, it's completely pointless. You just want it to hapen for some reason, while you completely ignore the show and use some other arguments that has nothing to do with Benioff and Weiss' story. 

Sansa is learning on how to play "the game of thrones".  She is learning from people like Cersei/Tyrells/Littlefinger who are invested in the game.  I don't consider Cersei or Littlefinger as teaching Sansa on how to rule.  Sansa is the perfect lady and she is very good at it.  But that is a different skillset than being a ruler.

Bran in the second book was ruling Winterfell in Robb's steed as the Stark in Winterfell.  And Maester Luwin who Ned and Catelyn trusted and who is a learned man even said that Bran will make a good lord someday.  I would trust Maester Luwin's judgment over Littlefinger's judgment on what a good ruler would look like. 

I believe that GRMM was planning on showing Arya's ruling arc in future books.  It seems to me that Arya was being set up as being the leader of the Brotherhood Without Banners.  But that is just speculation on my part.

In the books it was shown that both Bran and Arya observed how Robb ruled.  We see it in Bran's POV.  All of Ned's lessons about ruling that Arya knows about is what Arya overheard Ned telling Robb.  In Bran's first POV, Ned was teaching Bran a lesson in ruling.  In many of Jon's memories he grouped Robb/Bran/Arya together because those four has spent a lot of time together.  We see it in Jon's POV.

 

6 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sansa has readjusted her dreams. In the books she just wants to return to WF. She has modest expectations. These are more likely to be achieved.

Agree.  Sansa now has modest expectations.  To go home and to be loved.  That's what she wants. 

 

2 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

That said, why does every death has to have a purpose? Wouldn't it be already a purpose to show how a promising young life gets destroyed?

They did that already in the show.  They did that with Robb.

[nikma]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Whatever D&D think about Sansa, they're going to write GRRM's ending for her. GRRM apparently planned on killing her off in 1993 and it's unlikely that he changed his mind.

But they didn't find out about GRRM's ending last year. If Sansa was going to die and Arya or Bran were going to rule the North they wouldn't wrote the last 2-3 seasons the way they did. In the show the only person that makes sense as the ruler in the North is Sansa. If Jon is going to rule Westeros.

[nikma]

17 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

That said, why does every death has to have a purpose?

Because every death in GoT had some purpose. 

4 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

 

Bran in the second book was ruling Winterfell in Robb's steed as the Stark in Winterfell. 

Arya's ruling arc in future books. 

In the books it was shown that both 

In the books, in the books, in the books,... We are talking about the show. GRRM will never finish the books, there is no point in wasting time on them. In the show Bran or Arya won't rule anything. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by nikma

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Showing the danger of the Night King by having him killed a major character is actually quite a good purpose.

That said, I just reread the outline to be sure and actually don't think that Sansa's death is that strongly implied. Certainly not in the part about Jaime, because Sansa isn't above Jaime in throne succession. Her son, yes, but that the son dies doesn't mean, that Sansa dies as well. The biggest strike against Sansa is that she isn't mentioned among the five major characters and that's not that big as a strike, as surely more than these five characters will survive. (At least I hope so!)

Who do you think will be the first victim in Season 8, assuming Tormund and Beric made it? 

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

But I have another Question: Has anyone heard anything about Hannah Murray filming in Spain? 

Hannah Murray did not film in Spain as far as we know (important caveat, given that Gemma and some other actors were apparently there but weren't making their presence known).

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

But they didn't find out about GRRM's ending last year. If Sansa was going to die and Arya or Bran were going to rule the North they wouldn't wrote the last 2-3 seasons the way they did. In the show the only person that makes sense as the ruler in the North is Sansa. If Jon is going to rule Westeros.

They still have to write to GRRM's endgame for the character, no matter which way they choose to get there. They wrote Stannis as genuinely loving and caring towards Shireen, and yet he still ordered her burning, because he's destined to do so in the books. They wrote Shae as deeply devoted to Tyrion and Sansa, and yet she still turned on a dime and callously betrayed them since her book endgame called for it. So if Sansa's destined to die in the books, then die she will in the show, no matter what the show currently seems to be pointing towards.

In other news (via /Freefolk), Kit shaved his beard!!!

 

Oh, man. End of an era!

In Season 8 news, I guess this means reshoots for Kit are finished. It only took *looks at calendar* three months.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

. For Sansa to be one of the "surviving" Starks who makes common cause with Tyrion, she would have had to escape with him, but there's no mention of her doing so. That doesn't state "Sansa dies," no, but it sure as heck strongly implies it.

Tyrion can't make "common cause" with Sansa unless she's up North with the rest of them, and she never escaped KL, so yes, the outline strongly implies that she died when Outline Jaime murdered everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to claim the throne.

 

The outline doesn’t state Sansa never escaped kl. She could do like she ended up doing in the actual books: escape independently of Tyrion. Sansa herself wouldn't be in the line of succession and escaping lannister custody has proven to be possible (even in the outline).

It's clear that Turner has been filming in Seville - no source has disputed this - which means she does not die during the Winterfell battle. Late in the season, kl is likely to be under siege from either the night king or dany. It’s unlikely Cersei or euron could keep captives outside the city walls, at that point. And if Sansa and co escaped winterfell (or if part of the castle did not fall), it seems unlikely they would end up in the dragonpit as the night king is about to attack kl. Presumably, survivors would go where the nk would not be, and they would also want to avoid cersei/euron forces if they can help it.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Wouter

[BadAssRobinArryn]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Hannah Murray did not film in Spain as far as we know (important caveat, given that Gemma and some other actors were apparently there but weren't making their presence known). 

Thank you. :) Than I didn't miss anything. 

And as for the Friki spoilers: I have serious doubts about them, but the biggest point in favour is that I don't know why these persons would be outside, if the Night King were still around. The only reason I could think of is if Cersei's still around, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Edited October 10, 2018 by BadAssRobinArryn

[nikma]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They still have to write to GRRM's endgame for the character, no matter which way they choose to get there. They wrote Stannis as genuinely loving and caring towards Shireen, and yet he still ordered her burning, because he's destined to do so in the books. They wrote Shae as deeply devoted to Tyrion and Sansa, and yet she still turned on a dime and callously betrayed them since her book endgame called for it. So if Sansa's destined to die in the books, then die she will in the show, no matter what the show currently seems to be pointing towards.

Yes, and all those things made sense in the show. Arya or Bran as rulers of WF don't make any sense. And you don't know what is GRRM's endgame for the character. Benioff and Weiss do. And they wrote the show with that knowledge. If they wanted Arya or Bran to rule teh North they would write their characters differently. 

[nikma]

I don't know why would anyone use that outline(and interpretation of that outline) as bigger proof of some plot developments than the actual show.I don't understand this obsession with Sansa's death. There is no reason for it to happen, and the only argument is "well I think that's what GRRM wanted 25 years ago". 

 

You can find valid narrative reasons within the show for Cersei's death, Jaime's, Tyrion's, Euron's, Theon's and so on. You don't need to use some outline to explain why Jaime's death makes sense in the show. But if the only arguments for Sansa's death is interpretation of old outline... Well, it shows that that argument is not that strong. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by nikma

[Sunshinegal]

16 minutes ago, nikma said:

Because every death in GoT had some purpose. 

In the books, in the books, in the books,... We are talking about the show. GRRM will never finish the books, there is no point in wasting time on them. In the show Bran or Arya won't rule anything. 

I don't know if we will get any future books but the show is based on the books and the endgame GRMM told the producers.  We have to consider the books in the endgame because the producers are using GRMM's endgame.  The books that we have is a resource that we have to speculate on what the endgame might be. 

Just now, nikma said:

Yes, and all those things made sense in the show. Arya or Bran as rulers of WF don't make any sense. And you don't know what is GRRM's endgame for the character. Benioff and Weiss do. And they wrote the show with that knowledge. If they wanted Arya or Bran to rule teh North they would write their characters differently. 

Most likely in season 8 they will show that Arya and Bran spouting out Nedisms and letting the audience know that they can rule. 

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The outline doesn’t state Sansa never escaped kl. 

"State"? No. Imply? Yes.

I think so much of ASOIAF for GRRM really boils down to Jon, Arya and Tyrion. Jon's the classic hero (as GRRM has described him), his Simon Snowlock, his Aragorn, whatever. Arya's his favourite female character, as GRRM has said; he said he could write a whole book about her Braavos adventures (and he has never said anything of the sort about Sansa). And Tyrion's his favourite character overall, as he has happily admitted. He even tied them together in a love triangle in the outline. When GRRM recently said we wouldn't see the story continue beyond ASOIAF, he referred to Jon, Arya and Tyrion's stories. Dany and Bran are important for GRRM as well, but I think when push comes to shove, it's really all about Jon, Arya and Tyrion.

To bring this back to Sansa, the funny thing about those three characters (Jon, Arya, and Tyrion) is that they all have very fraught relationships with Sansa in the books. Book Sansa bullied Arya, she constantly referred to Jon as a bastard (to the point where Jon only begrudgingly misses her), and her marriage with Tyrion is strained at best. So we have this character who's the opposite of GRRM's favourite female character (as different from her as the sun from the moon, apparently), who bullied that same favourite female character, who is only begrudgingly missed by Jon, and who had a strained relationship with GRRM's very favourite character, and he's going to let her live? Ha! If she is very, very lucky, maybe.

You know who else had difficult relationships with Jon, Arya and Tyrion? Catelyn. All Catelyn did was despair of Arya's tomboy tendencies, be cold to Jon, and accuse Tyrion unjustly, and look what GRRM did to her: he gave her one of the cruelest deaths in ASOIAF, and that's saying something. Do you really think he's going to let Sansa off easy? Anyone who thinks GRRM's going to give Sansa a reward at the end of the day for making his beloved faves miserable has another think coming. GRRM giving Sansa the Catelyn treatment would not surprise me in the slightest.

Quote

It's clear that Turner has been filming in Seville - no source has disputed this - which means she does not die during the Winterfell battle. Late in the season, kl is likely to be under siege from either the night king or dany. It’s unlikely Cersei or euron could keep captives outside the city walls, at that point. And if Sansa and co escaped winterfell (or if part of the castle did not fall), it seems unlikely they would end up in the dragonpit as the night king is about to attack kl. Pre

/BoatsexBaby has suggested that Sophie needed a double because it was a Daznak's Pit-type scene, and at Daznak's Pit Hizdahr died (and the others very nearly did, too).

40 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Thank you. :) Than I didn't miss anything. 

There are the actors who provably there the whole week or so, the actors who were provably there briefly, the actors who were provably absent the whole time, the actors who may or may not have been there based on claimed but unverified sightings (like Tobias Menzies allegedly spotted debarking with the other cast members on the flight back), and everyone else. A lot of question marks. Heck, even if you believe Friki 100%, there are a lot of question marks.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

8 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I don't know if we will get any future books but the show is based on the books and the endgame GRMM told the producers.  We have to consider the books in the endgame because the producers are using GRMM's endgame.  The books that we have is a resource that we have to speculate on what the endgame might be.

Ok. But ignore the books, outlines, interviews. Just consider the show. Can you imagine Arya or Bran as rulers in the North in the show? Does it feel like a logical culmination of their story that we watched in the last 7 seasons? 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Here's a reason why he could have changed his mind: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/entertainment/interviews/a37208/arya-stark-maisie-williams-killed-off-game-thrones/ 

 

When you do a research, this Cosmo article is the only one to say "Arya and Sansa". In the other outlets I checked (mostly pre-dating the show, mostly more genre-oriented) it's just Arya, so I'd take this one with a grain of salt. One example:

http://www.vulture.com/2011/07/george_rr_martins_a_dance_with.html

I think I saw the original report at westeros.org long ago. GRRM could have added Sansa since, though. And, just it case, it doesn't mean that Sansa will die.

1 hour ago, nikma said:

In the show Bran or Arya won't rule anything. 

 

We don't know that. It happens that the best rulers or those made to rule aren't the ones who end up ruling. It happened on the show that the best ruler died (Tywin) to leave a nice but spineless boy king who wasn't fit for the function. It happened that the least fit to rule (Robert; great warrior, though) ended up on the throne in part because the man who would have made the wisest king (Ned) didn't want the throne to start with. And after a zombie apocalypse, it's quite likely that beggars can't be choosers, depending on who 1) will be still standing 2) will actually want to rule 3) will be accepted as a ruler.

I don't want Arya to be Queen and I don't see Bran-bot as able to rule (Bran Stark, if he's still somewhere? Yes). I do think that Jon/Dany are the most likely to end on the throne. But it isn't impossible that an unlikely candidate ends up leading what's left of Westeros because all the rulers are dead or gone elsewhere. It's even a realistic option, because wars don't automatically spare the fittest to rule (on paper, Unlikely Candidate could reveal better than Robert).

Edited October 10, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[BadAssRobinArryn]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 To bring this back to Sansa, the funny thing about those three characters (Jon, Arya, and Tyrion) is that they all have very fraught relationships with Sansa in the books. Book Sansa bullied Arya, she constantly referred to Jon as a bastard (to the point where Jon only begrudgingly misses her), and her marriage with Tyrion is strained at best. So we have this character who's the opposite of GRRM's favourite female character (as different from her as the sun from the moon, apparently), who bullied that same favourite female character, who is only begrudgingly missed by Jon, and who had a strained relationship with GRRM's very favourite character, and he's going to let her live? Ha! If she is very, very lucky, maybe. 

 

Since you put so much emphasize on the outline: It actually clearly states that Tyrion befriends Sansa. So at least in the early stages Martin planned that one of these three crucial characters (Martin's very favourite, even) had a positive relationship with Sansa. Make of this whatever you want. Even in the books and the show, while there is certainly a complex relationship between them and Sansa, whatever problems Sansa caused for these characters are actually diminished by other much more serious things. In the ranking of characters behaving badly towards Jon, Arya and Tyrion Sansa is far from the top. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, nikma said:

Ok. But ignore the books, outlines, interviews. Just consider the show. Can you imagine Arya or Bran as rulers in the North in the show? Does it feel like a logical culmination of their story that we watched in the last 7 seasons? 

You can't ignore the books/interviews etc.  The show is based on the books.  Even with other shows, you can't ignore the interviews cast and crew give. 

Before Season 7 I wouldn't think Sansa could rule Winterfell either. 

[Wouter]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 

/BoatsexBaby has suggested that Sophie needed a double because it was a Daznak's Pit-type scene, and at Daznak's Pit Hizdahr died (and the others very nearly did, too).

 

IIRC she was merely speculating based on the presence of body doubles (not necessarily stunt people - i'm not sure bsb ever made a clear distinction), and she was very slow to contradict Friki's version (even though his has no action in the dragonpit). Did she ever clearly say there would be fighting? And if so, didn't she backtrack to some extent after friki came with his version? Iirc we talked here about bsb suddenly denying she had implied violence, before.

There's also the question: who would be attacking and why is she there? If she's a cersei captive, she should be in a dungeon/tower cell or be dead already. If she is free, she should be among the non combattants of the dany and jon camp. And those would not set up camp right next to two sets of enemies (especially not the undead ones). If dany is besieging kl, they could be there, but then the likelyhood of an attack from kl (able to reach the pit) is low.