Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[MarySNJ]

14 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I've been rewatching seasons five and six and I really hope that season eight delves into how Jon Snow was brought back. I don't think they will but I want them to do. After watching the end of five and the beginning of six in one fell swoop, I am convinced that the sacrificing of Shireen is played a part in Jon being resurrected; life for a life. Add in the fact that Melisandre was responsible for both, and I'm convinced they are connected somehow and I would love see how they would explain because my imagination is running wild. 

I agree, Daario serves no purpose at this point. I hope he doesn't come back, we already have a shortened season best to leave these old storylines alone at this point. 

I also think Shireen's death paid for Jon's life. But being a fan of Jon, I kind of hope they don't delve into it. How much more guilt would he have to feel for actions he didn't commit after learning that his adoptive father Ned had to compromise his honor by lying to protect him, because Jon's biological parents' selfishness (absent other evidence) was one of the catalysts that led to a war that caused the deaths of both his grandfathers, uncle Brandon, father (Rhaegar), mother and half-siblings as well as thousands of other people in the battles, and ultimately the near extinction of the Targaryen line. Just top it all off with another helping of guilt learning that an innocent child was burned alive so that he could be resurrected. His entire life and resurrection was the result of other's actions that cost people's lives. 

In re: Daario, I agree. He served his purpose in Dany's Essos storyline. If they bring him back I hope it's not to add a another suitor for Daenerys. As it is Jon, Jorah and possibly Tyrion are in love with her. I'm not sure how Daario would go from proxy ruler in Mereen to the Golden Company anyway, but there are many things in this show that don't make sense. 

[Nash]

49 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

 there are many things in this show that don't make sense. 

To be written in words of burning gold on the side of the highest mountain in Westeros.

[OhOkayWhat]

It's hard to find more than 4 or 5 important things that do not make narrative sense in the show.

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Beric has been brought back without needing to kill somebody else. The life swapping is more connected with Faceless Men than the Lord Of Light....

The Faceless Men don't do life swapping though.  They take the faces of the dead, but that doesn't mean they create new life.  Mirri is the one that said that only death can pay for life (and then she proceeded to kill Dany's baby, so that Drogo could "live").  I think what makes people think that Shireen's death may be the price for Jon's life are thinking of that line by Mirri and of the fact that Mel also uses a sort of blood magic, always asking for King's blood for her rituals.

[Nash]

37 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

The Faceless Men don't do life swapping though.  They take the faces of the dead, but that doesn't mean they create new life.  Mirri is the one that said that only death can pay for life (and then she proceeded to kill Dany's baby, so that Drogo could "live").  I think what makes people think that Shireen's death may be the price for Jon's life are thinking of that line by Mirri and of the fact that Mel also uses a sort of blood magic, always asking for King's blood for her rituals.

It's pretty persuasive evidence - circumstantial but persuasive. I've not dismissed it; I suspect they may gloss over it with Magic Plot Paint. 

[WearyTraveler]

46 minutes ago, Nash said:

It's pretty persuasive evidence - circumstantial but persuasive. I've not dismissed it; I suspect they may gloss over it with Magic Plot Paint. 

I think that even if Shireen's death is the price for Jon's life in the books, this will never be addressed on the show.  If they didn't do it when they resurrected Jon, they are not going to bring that up again now.  I think the only character that could explain that is Mel and last time we saw her she was on her way to Essos, plus, Jon banished her from the North (precisely for burning Shireen).

Edited September 13, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[Edith]

New castings for season 8

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-casting-season-8-begins/#more-153747

The first role we’ve learned about is for a Northern Girl. The character will be around age 8, but they are open to seeing actresses older than this, up to age 10. The role is described as being a straight-talking Northern-accented girl, someone remarkable for her dauntlessness and integrity. According to the write-up, she’s been brought up in a family of soldiers and shares their fearlessness. The part is said to be a “very nice stand-out part for a strong-minded young girl with a fighting spirit.”

The role of the Northern Girl is currently set to shoot during the week commencing November 17th.

Game of Thrones is also searching for a Boy aged 8 – 12, with a physically fit and agile look, someone with a good, distinctive face. He’s described as being from a poor background, a boy who has to fight to make his way in the world. The description we saw mentions that they need an actor who can “completely own the scenes that he appears in,” hinting at multiple scenes. No coloring or height was noted, for what it’s worth.

The young actor is currently scheduled for filming the last week of November and the last week of December, but as always with Game of Thrones, things can change.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Edith

[OhOkayWhat]

41 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

....this will never be addressed on the show.  If they didn't do it when they resurrected Jon, they are not going to bring that up again now....

I think we know enough about the causes of Jon resurrection in the show. I doubt they feel like they need to add more details about it.

Edited September 13, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[TarotQueen]

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think that even if Shireen's death is the price for Jon's life in the books, this will never be addressed on the show.  If they didn't do it when they resurrected Jon, they are not going to bring that up again now.  I think the only character that could explain that is Mel and last time we saw her she was on her way to Essos, plus, Jon banished her from the North (precisely for burning Shireen).

I agree it doesnt seem like it will come up on the show precisely because of how mortified Melissandre seemed to be when Davos called her on it after the botb.  She hadnt admitted it yet back at Castle Black when she ressurected Job but her dejection and self doubt was obvious ... She seemed almost hopeless throughout the process, quite a change from the arrogance she had shown prior.  

My long winded point is that I dont think the show will now turn around and try to net death/life from these two because which characters would even want try except Mel herself, who already tearfully admitted burning Shireen to have been a mistake?

[WindyNights]

22 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I've been rewatching seasons five and six and I really hope that season eight delves into how Jon Snow was brought back. I don't think they will but I want them to do. After watching the end of five and the beginning of six in one fell swoop, I am convinced that the sacrificing of Shireen is played a part in Jon being resurrected; life for a life. Add in the fact that Melisandre was responsible for both, and I'm convinced they are connected somehow and I would love see how they would explain because my imagination is running wild. 

I agree, Daario serves no purpose at this point. I hope he doesn't come back, we already have a shortened season best to leave these old storylines alone at this point. 

If they're not going to delve into it then it probably didn't cause it.  That's my stance. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Edith said:

New castings for season 8

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-casting-season-8-begins/#more-153747

The first role we’ve learned about is for a Northern Girl. The character will be around age 8, but they are open to seeing actresses older than this, up to age 10. The role is described as being a straight-talking Northern-accented girl, someone remarkable for her dauntlessness and integrity. According to the write-up, she’s been brought up in a family of soldiers and shares their fearlessness. The part is said to be a “very nice stand-out part for a strong-minded young girl with a fighting spirit.”

WOTW suggested this could be a very young Lyanna Stark in a flashback or a Mormont. The part about "a family of soldiers" who are "fearless" makes me wonder if this character is a Mormont.

There's speculation in the WOTW comments section that the boy could be a young Varys. One would think if that was the case that the casting call would have specified that he needed to be white.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

The Faceless Men don't do life swapping though.  They take the faces of the dead, but that doesn't mean they create new life.  Mirri is the one that said that only death can pay for life (and then she proceeded to kill Dany's baby, so that Drogo could "live").  I think what makes people think that Shireen's death may be the price for Jon's life are thinking of that line by Mirri and of the fact that Mel also uses a sort of blood magic, always asking for King's blood for her rituals.

I was referring to Jaquen. He told Arya (after she saved him and the other 2 caged dudes) his "God" needed 3 deaths to "restore balance".  Thus, she got her initial "3 wishes".  I agree that life swapping is incorrect...but there is some kind of life / death equilibrium principle involved.... 

[WearyTraveler]

18 minutes ago, paigow said:

I was referring to Jaquen. He told Arya (after she saved him and the other 2 caged dudes) his "God" needed 3 deaths to "restore balance".  Thus, she got her initial "3 wishes".  I agree that life swapping is incorrect...but there is some kind of life / death equilibrium principle involved.... 

I see what you mean now.  Yes, Jaquen told her that.  I think this is later clarified when Arya finally reaches the House of Black and White and we learn that the God of Many Faces always demands a big sacrifice of the people who come to the Temple to ask for their services.  

[Edith]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

WOTW suggested this could be a very young Lyanna Stark in a flashback or a Mormont. The part about "a family of soldiers" who are "fearless" makes me wonder if this character is a Mormont.

There's speculation in the WOTW comments section that the boy could be a young Varys. One would think if that was the case that the casting call would have specified that he needed to be white.

Why another flashback to Lyanna? What else do the audience need to know about her?

She's Ned sister ✔️

In love/Married to Rhaegar ✔️

Jon's mother ✔️

Die in childbirth/promises me Ned✔️

What about a Mandarly girl? Team Dany is going to White Harbor, maybe they find out there about the wall/viserion? 

Agree! Wasn't there a mention from Lads that there was a scene between Varys and the little birds in the seasons last episode? Maybe the kid is a little bird or someone from KL or even from Essos.

[Chiny11]

47 minutes ago, Edith said:

Why another flashback to Lyanna? What else do the audience need to know about her?

She's Ned sister ✔️

In love/Married to Rhaegar ✔️

Jon's mother ✔️

Die in childbirth/promises me Ned✔️

What about a Mandarly girl? Team Dany is going to White Harbor, maybe they find out there about the wall/viserion? 

Agree! Wasn't there a mention from Lads that there was a scene between Varys and the little birds in the seasons last episode? Maybe the kid is a little bird or someone from KL or even from Essos.

I really hope we see them in White Harbor. That's just for my selfish reasons. I want to see Jon and Dany together before they get to Winterfell and all hell breaks loose. :(

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Chiny11 said:

I really hope we see them in White Harbor. That's just for my selfish reasons. I want to see Jon and Dany together before they get to Winterfell and all hell breaks loose. :(

Me too. I think that there is a good chance that this will happen. They should be on that boat and riding with her armies to Winterfell for at least a couple weeks. I can see the show establishing how close they have become in the first episode before their arrival at Winterfell. 

[madam magpie]

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Me too. I think that there is a good chance that this will happen. They should be on that boat and riding with her armies to Winterfell for at least a couple weeks. I can see the show establishing how close they have become in the first episode before their arrival at Winterfell. 

Making things all the more tragic when Bran delivers his news...

[Chiny11]

48 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Making things all the more tragic when Bran delivers his news...

I will be crying ? ? ? 

[Inquiry]

35 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Making things all the more tragic when Bran delivers his news...

Yeah, I almost feel like they have to show Dany and Jon having grown close before the big reveal. It makes so much sense from a story-telling perspective. Them becoming close will only make the reveal that much more painful for the characters. Plus, showing them happy together will make the scene where Jon and/or Dany discover their familial connection that much more powerful to the audience because we will have seen them happily together before everything tumbles down. I'm just hoping the shortened season won't require the removal of scenes like this and the first scene of season 8 isn't Jon and Dany entering Winterfell. I'm hoping the writers (and HBO) noted the criticisms of the shortened season 7, principally the story's pacing, and will remedy the problem as best they're able (making each episode at least an hour and a half each would be great). 

[SimoneS]

I wish they had known that they were going to wrap up the show in season 6 so they could have brought Daenerys and Jon together in that season. I would have liked to have seen their courtship get lots more screen time. I think that Kit and Emilia did some of their best work showing their characters' deepening feelings as they fell in love.

 

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

Making things all the more tragic when Bran delivers his news...

It is good news, not tragic. It means a miracle dragon baby, negotiating sharing power, and a new relative. They will get over the angst soon enough.

Edited September 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Chiny11]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

 

I wish they had known that they were going to wrap up the show in season 6 so they could have brought Daenerys and Jon together in that season. I would have liked to have seen their courtship get lots more screen time. I think that Kit and Emilia did some of their best work showing their characters' deepening feelings as they fell in love.

I totally agree.

 

D&D always claim they knew from the beginning that the series would end after 73 episodes. I'm like, "please stop lying". :(

 

If you knew,  then why do we still have so many things left to tie up? Which caused you guys to rush through season 7 (and which would probably cause you to rush through  season 8).

I wish Jon became King of the North in Season 5. This would have afforded us the opportunity to see Jon being King in Season 5 and part of Season 6 (we've hardly seen him just being King) .

Also, I wish Dany came back to Westeros in Season 6 and met Jon by the end of the season. So that season 7 would have more time dedicated to the both of them getting to know each other.

But what do I know. I am just a nitpicky viewer. :)

[OhOkayWhat]

@Chiny11

It's not so simple. Each season needs a climax within its big narratives. Season 6 storyarc had the Retaking Winterfell and Sept Baelor destruction. Season 5 had the opposite of both storyarcs.

Edited September 14, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[madam magpie]

4 hours ago, Inquiry said:

Yeah, I almost feel like they have to show Dany and Jon having grown close before the big reveal. It makes so much sense from a story-telling perspective. Them becoming close will only make the reveal that much more painful for the characters. Plus, showing them happy together will make the scene where Jon and/or Dany discover their familial connection that much more powerful to the audience because we will have seen them happily together before everything tumbles down. I'm just hoping the shortened season won't require the removal of scenes like this and the first scene of season 8 isn't Jon and Dany entering Winterfell. I'm hoping the writers (and HBO) noted the criticisms of the shortened season 7, principally the story's pacing, and will remedy the problem as best they're able (making each episode at least an hour and a half each would be great). 

I loved the pacing of the most recent season. Shit got done! But yes, I absolutely agree. We need to see that they "should" be together before we can be sad that they (maybe) can't be. I hope we see it too. 

[bubble sparkly]

I want to see Dany and Jon trying to pretend to be all formal with each other in public, then sneaking away for secret smooching. All the while Tyrion, Davos and the gang are just rolling their eyes because it's painfully obvious D+J are in love and having boatsex every night.

[MadMouse]

4 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I loved the pacing of the most recent season. Shit got done! But yes, I absolutely agree. We need to see that they "should" be together before we can be sad that they (maybe) can't be. I hope we see it too. 

Why couldn't they be together?

[Inquiry]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

Why couldn't they be together?

Not the poster you're quoting, but Jon and Dany's reactions to the news will likely be unfavorable, at best. I imagine that Jon, at the very least, will feel like the relationship cannot continue because of the reveal. I imagine he'll be conflicted about it up till the moment he finds out Dany's pregnant. Then he'll still be conflicted, but he'll marry her to prevent bringing another bastard into the world. Not to mention, Dany will have to come to terms with Jon's right to the throne. 

[madam magpie]

54 minutes ago, Inquiry said:

Not the poster you're quoting, but Jon and Dany's reactions to the news will likely be unfavorable, at best. I imagine that Jon, at the very least, will feel like the relationship cannot continue because of the reveal. I imagine he'll be conflicted about it up till the moment he finds out Dany's pregnant. Then he'll still be conflicted, but he'll marry her to prevent bringing another bastard into the world. Not to mention, Dany will have to come to terms with Jon's right to the throne. 

I'm hoping it's Dany who's most conflicted, given her desire to be a different kind of ruler. I do think they'll sort it out (just in time for her to die), and I really hope they don't get married out of some sense of duty. But yeah. It will absolutely be an issue for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that it shakes Dany's own belief that she has the birthright to the Iron Throne. The rift will be more tragic if we see how much they love each other and how good they are together before it happens.

Edited September 15, 2017 by madam magpie

[MadMouse]

The incest conflict will be played out to make the casuals okay with it because they're stupid. Jon being the heir is solved with a marriage, he was the most logical choice for that before any of this. The fact he's the heir and they're in love just makes it easier. There's no way the only reason Jon marries or stays with her is because of fathering a bastard, this has been set up for years. They're Rhaegar and Lyanna part two.

[madam magpie]

Do you mean you think Dany/Jon won't care at all that they're related or that Jon is suddenly the rightful heir, will have no issue with the shift in the power dynamic, will remain an unshakeable couple, and the only problem with the reveal will come from the outside? That seems super unrealistic to me and violates many storytelling rules. I agree that they're being set up as the show's great love story, but no writer outside fan fiction just has the main characters fall in love, stay in love, and face no obstacles. Bran's news is obviously an obstacle, and I imagine the conflict will be both internal and external.

[Inquiry]

18 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

The incest conflict will be played out to make the casuals okay with it because they're stupid. Jon being the heir is solved with a marriage, he was the most logical choice for that before any of this. The fact he's the heir and they're in love just makes it easier. There's no way the only reason Jon marries or stays with her is because of fathering a bastard, this has been set up for years. They're Rhaegar and Lyanna part two.

2

I never said that the only reason Jon would marry Dany is that he doesn't want to father a bastard, but I do think it will be a large motivating factor. Not wanting to father a bastard is ingrained in Jon's characterization. How do you think the incest conflict will be played out to make it palatable to casual viewers? Also, I think you're ignoring a huge part of Dany's character in believing that she'll just be fine with Jon being the heir because they're in love and can just marry. Dany believing herself to be the rightful ruler of Westeros has been a fundamental part of her story. That's definitely going to cause some turmoil for her/them.  

ETA: Or what madam magpie said. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Inquiry

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

Do you mean you think Dany/Jon won't care at all that they're related or that Jon is suddenly the rightful heir, will have no issue with the shift in the power dynamic, will remain an unshakeable couple, and the only problem with the reveal will come from the outside? That seems super unrealistic to me and violates many storytelling rules. I agree that they're being set up as the show's great love story, but no writer outside fan fiction just has the main characters fall in love, stay in love, and face no obstacles. Bran's news is obviously an obstacle, and I imagine the conflict will be both internal and external.

Dany expected to marry Rhaegar's son and then Viserys, while it might be a little more of an issue for Jon (Book Jon will sleep with her the first time knowing who she is) these types of marriages weren't uncommon. If she had never met or interacted with Jon Snow I would say it would be a bigger issue but she has. The only unrealistic storytelling would be Jon becoming power hungry or Dany thinking he will in spite of everything she's seen of him. So yeah I fully believe the main conflict will come from outside sources. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa and the Northern lords.

 

1 hour ago, Inquiry said:

I never said that the only reason Jon would marry Dany is that he doesn't want to father a bastard, but I do think it will be a large motivating factor. Not wanting to father a bastard is ingrained in Jon's characterization. How do you think the incest conflict will be played out to make it palatable to casual viewers? Also, I think you're ignoring a huge part of Dany's character in believing that she'll just be fine with Jon being the heir because they're in love and can just marry. Dany believing herself to be the rightful ruler of Westeros has been a fundamental part of her story. That's definitely going to cause some turmoil for her/them.  

How will the incest be played? I expect Dany to point out the absurd amount events that got them to where they are, had Rhaegar won they most likely would have been married. And then both coming from opposite sides of the worlds, to meet and fall in love anyways. Call it destiny or divine intervention. Yeah fathering a bastard is something he doesn't want to do. But a huge part of his character is him wanting to belong. He was raised with the Starks but he wasnt't one of them, always the outsider. So while finding out he's a Targaryen will be a shock it also gives him something he wants. And just like he told Theon he can be both. Dany being the rightful ruler is a huge part of her arc, not the character. Wanting a family and love is, thats why she embraces the Mother of Dragons because that's all the family she believes she will have. And now she does someone that she already loves, as for the rightful part yeah it will cause some issues but we've seen her priorities have shifted. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by MadMouse

[tangerine95]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

The incest conflict will be played out to make the casuals okay with it because they're stupid. Jon being the heir is solved with a marriage, he was the most logical choice for that before any of this. The fact he's the heir and they're in love just makes it easier. There's no way the only reason Jon marries or stays with her is because of fathering a bastard, this has been set up for years. They're Rhaegar and Lyanna part two.

I agree I can't see them being related being a huge issue for them in the books,I feel like they're doing that for the casual audience because they didn't really establish on the show  that mostly sibling and parent child relationships are considered incest in that world while cousins and all that married in other great houses too. I think it will be a conflict for Jon but he'll eventually chose to continue the relationship because it's not like he can fall out of love that easily and look at her as a relative and it will be something Jon choses for himself despite that it might be considered wrong or Targaryen of him.I do have a feeling that maybe they won't know about the pregnancy when they chose to stay together,they did everything to show them as purely a love match even avoiding Tyrion or Varys advising a marriage alliance to Dany even tho it was obvious because imo they wanted them established as in love before anything political. So I doubt they would want people to think they're getting married because of the kid.

I can see Dany being conflicted about the rightful heir thing,it has been a huge part of her storyline for years and I'm sure she'll have someone whispering to her how Jon could be a threat but I don't think that will last long because I can't imagine Jon would show any desire to take the throne for himself.

Edited September 15, 2017 by tangerine95

[MadMouse]

43 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I agree I can't see them being related being a huge issue for them in the books,I feel like they're doing that for the casual audience because they didn't really establish on the show  that mostly sibling and parent child relationships are considered incest in that world while cousins and all that married in other great houses too. I think it will be a conflict for Jon but he'll eventually chose to continue the relationship because it's not like he can fall out of love that easily and look at her as a relative and it will be something Jon choses for himself despite that it might be considered wrong or Targaryen of him.I do have a feeling that maybe they won't know about the pregnancy when they chose to stay together,they did everything to show them as purely a love match even avoiding Tyrion or Varys advising a marriage alliance to Dany even tho it was obvious because imo they wanted them established as in love before anything political. So I doubt they would want people to think they're getting married because of the kid.

I can see Dany being conflicted about the rightful heir thing,it has been a huge part of her storyline for years and I'm sure she'll have someone whispering to her how Jon could be a threat but I don't think that will last long because I can't imagine Jon would show any desire to take the throne for himself.

Exactly, when I say casuals are stupid its not meant as insult they just don't pay attention and what we consider incest is acceptable in that world. These are people who still think her name is Khaleesi and even after Bran's narrating Jon's heritage think Dany and Jon are siblings. And you hit the nail on the head about the marriage, everything done this season was to show this relationship was all about love not politics or alliances. The same with Jon, he will choose her because of love not obligation or because of a child.

[SimoneS]

I fully expect Jon to pull away from Daenerys after finding out the truth. He will brood about the truth, but then come to terms with it and want to reunite with Dany. I think that Dany will be unwilling. She thinks that she cannot have children and is last of the main Targaryen line. Jon marrying and having children with another woman will ensure the continuation their family. Not on the show, but other than Gendry there are distant Targaryen relatives whom he could marry. Dany might insist that Jon do just that causing friction between them. Dany getting pregnant will be the solution, bringing them back together. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by SimoneS

[madam magpie]

6 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Dany expected to marry Rhaegar's son and then Viserys, while it might be a little more of an issue for Jon (Book Jon will sleep with her the first time knowing who she is) these types of marriages weren't uncommon. If she had never met or interacted with Jon Snow I would say it would be a bigger issue but she has. The only unrealistic storytelling would be Jon becoming power hungry or Dany thinking he will in spite of everything she's seen of him. So yeah I fully believe the main conflict will come from outside sources. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa and the Northern lords.

 

How will the incest be played? I expect Dany to point out the absurd amount events that got them to where they are, had Rhaegar won they most likely would have been married. And then both coming from opposite sides of the worlds, to meet and fall in love anyways. Call it destiny or divine intervention. Yeah fathering a bastard is something he doesn't want to do. But a huge part of his character is him wanting to belong. He was raised with the Starks but he wasnt't one of them, always the outsider. So while finding out he's a Targaryen will be a shock it also gives him something he wants. And just like he told Theon he can be both. Dany being the rightful ruler is a huge part of her arc, not the character. Wanting a family and love is, thats why she embraces the Mother of Dragons because that's all the family she believes she will have. And now she does someone that she already loves, as for the rightful part yeah it will cause some issues but we've seen her priorities have shifted. 

This sounds like fan fiction wish fulfillment to me. There's been so much made throughout the show of Dany's belief in herself as the rightful ruler and in her desire to be a different kind of ruler. This revelation presents a direct conflict to both things. It can't just be ignored by the narrative. Just because many years ago when she was as a child, Dany believed in her family's incestuous approach to marriage doesn't mean she'll jump on board now and defer to Jon's birthright. She's going to be forced to reevaluate a lot of things. She might not mind the incest too much. (I hope she does because it's a more surprising story element.) She was willing to marry to secure a military alliance, after all. But there's no way she's just going to walk away from her armies and quest for power because she finds out she's not actually the rightful heir. Plus, that view of marriage as politics was before she'd fallen in love with Jon, when she figured "no big deal, I can love 'em and leave 'em with no consequences." She may want him to be with someone else because she thinks she can't have children and she wants the line to continue. There are a lot of ways it could play out, but it will definitely be a problem for Jon/Dany. It's been set up as a huge conflict.

Edited September 15, 2017 by madam magpie

[madam magpie]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I fully expect Jon to pull away from Daenerys after finding out the truth. He will brood about the truth, but then come to terms with it and want to reunite with Dany.

This seems reasonable. I hope there's more to it for the story's sake, but I can see Jon doing this. It seems totally obvious too that they'll reconcile eventually.

[MadMouse]

53 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

This sounds like fan fiction wish fulfillment to me. There's been so much made throughout the show of Dany's belief in herself as the rightful ruler and in her desire to be a different kind of ruler. This revelation presents a direct conflict to both things. It can't just be ignored by the narrative. Just because many years ago when she was as a child, Dany believed in her family's incestuous approach to marriage doesn't mean she'll jump on board now and defer to Jon's birthright. She's going to be forced to reevaluate a lot of things. She might not mind the incest too much. (I hope she does because it's a more surprising story element.) She was willing to marry to secure a military alliance, after all. But there's no way she's just going to walk away from her armies and quest for power because she finds out she's not actually the rightful heir. Plus, that view of marriage as politics was before she'd fallen in love with Jon, when she figured "no big deal, I can love 'em and leave 'em with no consequences." She may want him to be with someone else because she thinks she can't have children and she wants the line to continue. There are a lot of ways it could play out, but it will definitely be a problem for Jon/Dany. It's been set up as a huge conflict.

You mean fanfiction as in the books? Or the scene in the Dragonpit and every time she talks about not having children or being the last Targaryen? Do you think she's saying those things with joy. The core of Dany's character is how shes trying to do the right thing but hates doing it alone. She yearns for family and love. Jon immediately fills both those voids. The same with the incest, what your basically saying is you want her to have issues because it would surprising not actually true to the character. 

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

You mean fanfiction as in the books?

Seeing as original books aren't what fan fiction is, I'll go with "no," but I suspect you know that already.

 

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

Or the scene in the Dragonpit and every time she talks about not having children or being the last Targaryen? Do you think she's saying those things with joy. The core of Dany's character is how shes trying to do the right thing but hates doing it alone. She yearns for family and love. Jon immediately fills both those voids. The same with the incest, what your basically saying is you want her to have issues because it would surprising not actually true to the character. 

Obviously I disagree. Dany wants to be a different kind of leader. That's also true to the character. She's not one thing; she's a dynamic protagonist. A "different kind of leader" isn't another hereditary monarch. That's not breaking any wheel. Succession and the fact that she can't have children have come up a lot, yes. So has choosing leaders; it's come up a lot that the people chose Dany or Jon, as opposed to Cersei and the monarchs of this story's history. I expect all of those themes to be very important. How? I'd like to see Dany realize that she deserves to rule because she's compassionate and good at it, rather than because she was born into a certain family. And I'd like to see Jon advocate for that. Maybe she won't. Maybe she will. Maybe it'll be something else. I guess we'll find out in a couple of years.

Edited September 15, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nash]

It need not end with the happy lovers married and ruling - in fact I'd bet against it but......look at it this way:

1 J is the rightful heir but hates ruling

2 D is the next in line and has a vision thing about breaking the blah blah blah 

3 if J has publicly acknowledged her as Queen before he knows his lineage, as an honourable bloke, he may say that surrendered his claim and he sees her as the Queen. All a bit Victoria and Albert - weren't they related? 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Nash
Typo

[MadMouse]

44 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Seeing as original books aren't what fan fiction is, I'll go with "no," but I suspect you know that already.

 

Obviously I disagree. Dany wants to be a different kind of leader. That's also true to the character. She's not one thing; she's a dynamic protagonist. A "different kind of leader" isn't another hereditary monarch. That's not breaking any wheel. Succession and the fact that she can't have children have come up a lot, yes. So has choosing leaders; it's come up a lot that the people chose Dany or Jon, as opposed to Cersei and the monarchs of this story's history. I expect all of those themes to be very important. How? I'd like to see Dany realize that she deserves to rule because she's compassionate and good at it, rather than because she was born into a certain family. And I'd like to see Jon advocate for that. Maybe she won't. Maybe she will. Maybe it'll be something else. I guess we'll find out in a couple of years.

And how does Jon change this, his first meeting with her he said that exact same thing so did Davos. He didn't give a damn about her birthright, he didn't know her  and he only bent the knee when he saw what kind of person she was. He's the perfect fit as King, consort or heir to this ideal of hers. I've said repeatedly the conflict will come from other people because Jon and Dany believe in the same things.

But here's the bitter pill for both of them, it won't work. All the examples of this type of proto democracy that were mentioned have failed. The Nightswatch, last two leaders murdered, Kingsmoot civil war and the North the minute Jon does something they don't like "cries to pick a new ruler". People in the end will always jockey for power. After Jon and Dany are dead, do you think the Martells or Starks would bend the knee to some sort of elected Lannister King? Or the Tullys? Would anyone bend the knee to a Greyjoy? Aegon the Conquer built the wheel for a reason, it works and its necessary.

[Nash]

I'd end it with a coda some 50 years hence and two nobles are saying, "the old queen was a just ruler, her grandson is a maniac and we can't let him rule." "Well, you know what they say he did to his Grandfather..."

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Seeing as original books aren't what fan fiction is, I'll go with "no," but I suspect you know that already.

 

Obviously I disagree. Dany wants to be a different kind of leader. That's also true to the character. She's not one thing; she's a dynamic protagonist. A "different kind of leader" isn't another hereditary monarch. That's not breaking any wheel. Succession and the fact that she can't have children have come up a lot, yes. So has choosing leaders; it's come up a lot that the people chose Dany or Jon, as opposed to Cersei and the monarchs of this story's history. I expect all of those themes to be very important. How? I'd like to see Dany realize that she deserves to rule because she's compassionate and good at it, rather than because she was born into a certain family. And I'd like to see Jon advocate for that. Maybe she won't. Maybe she will. Maybe it'll be something else. I guess we'll find out in a couple of years.

Dany wants to be a different kind of leader. I think Dany does mean well ("she has a good heart"). I believe that she truly wants to change the system. However, the first thing she did when she came to Westeros was demand fealty from Jon and accuse him of being in open rebellion because he maintained that he was KitN - as elected by his own people. He was actually the wheel-breaker in that situation because he was named King not because he was the true-born Stark male heir - he wasn't, but because he was perceived to have the leadership qualities to be King.  As he pointed out to Dany at their first meeting, without knowing of her deeds in Essos, she was relying on her father's name as the justification for demanding he bend the knee. That's not breaking the wheel. It's perpetuating the system that exists. To be honest, I was very annoyed at the writing because it completely went against the idea that Dany wanted to do something different.

Now, after getting to know her, after seeing her in action putting her life and dragons on the line to protect the away team, she proved herself to him. That is why Jon bent the knee. She had the means (dragons/army/cavalry) and the intentions to be the kind of ruler that would be protector of the realm. 

[herbz]

I have no idea who would do it, and everyone's going to be too busy fighting ice zombies anyway, but I'd like just one character to ask what 'breaking the wheel' actually means. Cool catchphrase and all, but what are her plans once she has the throne? Dany has good intentions, but how does she mean to make life better for the people of Westeros? She swooped in and then left Meereen in the hands of Daario Nahaaris, of all people, so that she could pursue her birthright. You'd think that would have some ramifications. She's still figuring it out. She cares, but I'd like the writing to set out what she'd do beyond conquering if she's going to sit the throne in the end. The realm is going to need to serious rebuilding. It goes back to GRRM's 'but what is Aragorn's tax policy?' philosophy. I think ADOS might go into how impossibly hard ruling post-war will be (Daenerys might not want it so much after experiencing that), and that will be part of the 'bittersweet' nature of the ending, but that with only 6 episodes left the show might choose to end on a more uplifting note and essentially fade to black before the scouring of the Shire part. 

[Nash]

I think there'll be a lot of very annoyed viewers if the whole thing ends on a note of " your majesty, I'd like a word about the tax policy"....

[herbz]

3 minutes ago, Nash said:

I think there'll be a lot of very annoyed viewers if the whole thing ends on a note of " your majesty, I'd like a word about the tax policy"....

Ha, I didn't mean it like that! You may have just written Tyrion's final line :D Just that it wouldn't feel very ASOIAF in spirit if the final season is all a fantasy dragons v Night King battle with a triumphant ending and no discussion of what comes after. But that's sort of exactly what I think might happen, because like you say, most viewers probably won't want to sit and watch a small council meeting as the final scene.

Edited September 15, 2017 by herbz

[madam magpie]

18 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Dany wants to be a different kind of leader. I think Dany does mean well ("she has a good heart"). I believe that she truly wants to change the system. However, the first thing she did when she came to Westeros was demand fealty from Jon and accuse him of being in open rebellion because he maintained that he was KitN - as elected by his own people. He was actually the wheel-breaker in that situation because he was named King not because he was the true-born Stark male heir - he wasn't, but because he was perceived to have the leadership qualities to be King.  As he pointed out to Dany at their first meeting, without knowing of her deeds in Essos, she was relying on her father's name as the justification for demanding he bend the knee. That's not breaking the wheel. It's perpetuating the system that exists. To be honest, I was very annoyed at the writing because it completely went against the idea that Dany wanted to do something different.

Now, after getting to know her, after seeing her in action putting her life and dragons on the line to protect the away team, she proved herself to him. That is why Jon bent the knee. She had the means (dragons/army/cavalry) and the intentions to be the kind of ruler that would be protector of the realm. 

I think Dany continues to be a work in progress. She wants to be different, she's doing different things, but she's not done or fully evolved as a character. Maybe she'll fall back on the old ways of monarchies. Maybe she won't. I won't know until it's over. But the story has already given us lots of clues that she's not wedded to ruling like a monarch. She's given many of the people she's conquered choices. She halfheartedly threw her weight around, "commanding" Jorah to find a cure for his disease and telling Jon she hadn't given him permission to leave. She demanded fealty from Jon and then gave him dragonglass and pledged to help him without that promise from him. Dany is consistently contradictory in how she rules. I expect that theme to continue and then be resolved.

Edited September 16, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nash]

The TV series apparently ends up in the same place as the books. I say apparently because that's what we've been told and it might just be maskirova by HBO to allow GRRM to finish it all his own way. Sometime. 

So take it at face value we are playing guessing games as to what GRRM thinks is a good ending. I don't have a clue. I'd settle for D&J ruling jointly with a vaguely happier outlook for Westeros in the short to medium term. 

[TarotQueen]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:43 AM, Inquiry said:

 How do you think the incest conflict will be played out to make it palatable to casual viewers? 

I am not the person you asked but six seasons of Jaime and Cersei are what will make Jon and Dany palatable to casual viewers.

After all, the show has portayed J&C's love very sympathetically.  Outside of the most rigid viewers, who can make up thier mind to never forgive a character (Jaime regarding crippling Bran) there is nearly always a level of sympathy for Jaime when Cersei is hurtful to him, even though the sentiment always includes some type of "I cant believe I am saying this about a guy who is fucking his sister but ...." included.  And that reaction is among book and non book readers, critics and reveiwers too, all over the web.  You can see it by reading back  here in the non book or unsullied back to when she wouldnt give it up once he arrived back in KL with only one hand left among several examples I'll be happy to expound upon if you like.  Or look up how viewers respond when he has a moment of tenderness about the "woman he loves", like on the boat to Dorne with Bronn.  Cersei is more widely disliked than Jaime, and more calculating about thier relationship, but there too, I'm pretty sure in a poll that most viewers would say she should have run off with her brother along time ago and settled down like Cathy and Chris Doll (dont judge me lol) instead of playing the game of thrones, even if that would mean tacitly endorsing the incest.

And this is two characters who share the closest genetic relationship in the world (twinship) making the incest involved the most explicit kind.  One of whom is roundly hated and the other of whom is only controversially favored.

With our two heroes, who arent even that close?  I just dont see why this would be a problem.  The writers wasting time on it is worse than the situation itself.  The conflict over shift in position and power needs that time afaic because it's far more interesting and has more dramatic potential and has actual consequences for the characters fates.

[MarySNJ]

14 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I think Dany continues to be a work in progress. She wants to be different, she's doing different things, but she's not done or fully evolved as a character. Maybe she'll fall back on the old ways of monarchies. Maybe she won't. I won't know until it's over. But the story has already given us lots of clues that she's not wedded to ruling like a monarch. She's given many of the people she's conquered choices. She halfheartedly three her weight around, "commanding" Jorah to find a cure for his disease and telling Jon she hadn't given him permission to leave. She demanded fealty from Jon and then gave him dragonglass and pledged to help him without that promise from him. Dany is consistently contradictory in how she rules. I expect that theme to continue and then be resolved.

I hope you're right. I understand some of Dany's posturing was a display of power in a situation where she was trying to establish herself, but I had a problem with her comments to Tyrion when she told him to send Jon a raven that said "You're Queen invites you to Dragonstone to bend the knee." Tyrion had the good sense to more diplomatic in the raven. But that's water under the bridge now.

I have a feeling that D&D will write some conflict between Dany and Jon over who has the right to the throne which will further appear to contradict Dany's stated aim to break the wheel because she feels entitled to it. I don't think Jon has any interest in the Iron Throne and he feel that she is the rightful Queen, so any conflict would really be contrived just for the drama. D&D seem to feel they need to do that because fighting wars on two fronts isn't enough conflict. /sarc

[madam magpie]

3 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I hope you're right. I understand some of Dany's posturing was a display of power in a situation where she was trying to establish herself, but I had a problem with her comments to Tyrion when she told him to send Jon a raven that said "You're Queen invites you to Dragonstone to bend the knee." Tyrion had the good sense to more diplomatic in the raven. But that's water under the bridge now.

I have a feeling that D&D will write some conflict between Dany and Jon over who has the right to the throne which will further appear to contradict Dany's stated aim to break the wheel because she feels entitled to it. I don't think Jon has any interest in the Iron Throne and he feel that she is the rightful Queen, so any conflict would really be contrived just for the drama. D&D seem to feel they need to do that because fighting wars on two fronts isn't enough conflict. /sarc

I think you could have conflict in that Dany herself believes in birthright as what entitles her (or anyone) to the throne. Given her personality thus far, I'd expect her to be conflicted and suspicious when she finds out about Jon's claim, especially if they're all blindsided by it. It seems reasonable that she could feel played and vulnerable, especially she's already put herself in a very vulnerable position by falling for Jon and acting on that. I don't expect that to last forever; she'll certainly get over it. But initially? Sure. I think it would be bizarre if she thinks it's all no big deal.

Agree that Jon doesn't want the throne. It'll be interesting to see how the people around him react to that, but I don't see him as the type to make a play for it. I'm hoping that reality will be what teaches Dany that rulers should rule because they're good at it, not because they're born to it. That's why Jon chose her in the end, and it seems reasonable he'll continue to do so. Plus, she left Mereen with Daario until the people could choose their rulers (she says something to that effect before she goes), so I do think it's possible for her to fully evolve into a democratic leader. That seems like the only way to truly break the wheel. We'll see, I guess...

Edited September 16, 2017 by madam magpie