S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Firstly, yep, gross!! Amazing job from the f/x people.

Secondly, that's a lot of thigh in that last pic. Yep, definitely worth it. :D

Heh.

Seriously, Dean must have had a few torn tendons namely his patella tendon. Good thing Cas had a lot of juice to heal that or Dean would have been in for a lot of surgery.  EGADS.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Heh.

Seriously, Dean must have had a few torn tendons namely his patella tendon. Good thing Cas had a lot of juice to heal that or Dean would have been in for a lot of surgery.  EGADS.

Oh yeah, I don't think he'd have been putting any weight on that leg, never mind going days on it.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh yeah, I don't think he'd have been putting any weight on that leg, never mind going days on it.

That reminds me, how much time elapsed in these two episodes? I'm thinking like 3 days? The show could have had Jody call in a favor from an EMT friend to do some field repair until Dean could get to the hospital. But I guess I'll head canon that Dean himself stitched up the top layer of skin, then they used all the bandages and 20 tubes of neosporin to ward off infection. Then Dean he managed the pain with whiskey and the pain pills he found in the bunker, since apparently the priority was not making sure Dean's leg didn't become gangrenous before going off to find Cas.  

They should have called in a favor from that vet from the beginning of s12 to come fix him up at least temporarily. That dude owes them all the favors after aiding and abetting stupid Lady DingDongSheDead .

Edited June 30, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That reminds me, how much time elapsed in these two episodes? I'm thinking like 3 days? The show could have had Jody call in a favor from an EMT friend to do some field repair until Dean could get to the hospital. But I guess I'll head canon that Dean himself stitched up the top layer of skin, then they used all the bandages and 20 tubes of neosporin to ward off infection. Then Dean he managed the pain with whiskey and the pain pills he found in the bunker, since apparently the priority was not making sure Dean's leg didn't become gangrenous before going off to find Cas.  

They should have called in a favor from that vet from the beginning of s12 to come fix him up at least temporarily. That dude owes them all the favors after aiding and abetting stupid Lady DingDongSheDead .

Alex--who as I recall is in nursing school--tended to Dean's wound when they were at Jodi's house. I assume she stitched it up for him at that time.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Alex--who as I recall is in nursing school--tended to Dean's wound when they were at Jodi's house. I assume she stitched it up for him at that time.

I should have been more clear. I was thinking more about before they got to Jody's house.  How did Dean not bleed out? Either Sam, Lady YIPPEESHEDEAD! or Dean had to have stitched him up to some degree before they made that 5 + hour drive to Sioux Falls.  Bandages alone wouldn't have been sufficient.

Thanks for the info on Alex. I had no idea she was in nursing school. I thought she was still in high school! LOL whoops!

Edited June 30, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I should have been more clear. I was thinking more about before they got to Jody's house.  How did Dean not bleed out?

Considering we've seen them do field dressing and such before, I'd guess they did the same thing here and then Alex did a better job when they got to Jodi's.

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thanks for the info on Alex. I had no idea she was in nursing school. I thought she was still in high school! LOL whoops!

Claire mentions that Alex is in nursing school--something about her thinking Jodi wants her be like Alex and go to nursing school--back in...crap the episode name is escaping me right now.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Considering we've seen them do field dressing and such before, I'd guess they did the same thing here and then Alex did a better job when they got to Jodi's.

I dunno, that's beyond field dressing, looking at pics of that wound. That's probably the worst looking non mortal wound this show has ever had. There is bone showing! I think I'm glad they never showed real closely how bad it was because it's really unbelievable on any level that Dean could have stood on that leg at all.  LOL Although if they had shown it, I would have more likely believed he really couldn't have gone into a fight.

Catch-22!

[millennium]

The One Where Everybody Dies, huh?

I take it all with a fifty-pound bag of salt.

The two previous British Men of Letters episodes were far superior.  The real menace in the world is human, not paranormal.

The show is tired, but the two episodes referenced above reminded me that the world would suck without Sam and Dean in it.

[catrox14]

This was on the CW tonight. I really studied Cas and I swear he is not Cas when he comes back from the Rift the first time. There has to be a reason for them not showing him come back.

IMO, Cas is different and I don't know if his trip to the AU changed him, or his doppelganger came back through, but I swear that wasn't Cas.  He didn't carry himself like Cas, he had an unusual softness to him. He touched Kelly and hugged her and that is not what Cas does typically. Not really.

I am still side-eying if that was really most sincerely Cas that was killed by Lucifer.

Edited September 28, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: IMO, Cas wouldn't be all "You don't wanna know" about what's in the AU. He's too direct. He would just be straight. Why would he be mysterious about the whole thing? 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This was on the CW last night, so I actually watched it with commercials.  (Weird, I know - given that I could have pulled it up on Netflix and watched without commercials - but I wanted to get a feel for what it will be like when I watch S13 'live' live - the night they air with commercials and not just the next day streaming.)  

Overall, I liked the episode better than the first time I watched it.  I think it stood up better when not watched immediately after Who We Are.  It needs a little breathing space. 

I really liked the Kelly Klein actress.  And I felt so sorry for Kelly this time through - more sorry than I did when I initially watched, with her knowing that she was going to die in childbirth and would never get to see or know her son.  (Put aside whatever feelings I might have about Satan's son, I'm talking about the mother here.)  I really liked all the Cas/Kelly interaction.  

Rowena's death scene was even more gruesome than I remembered.  I don't know; as much as I was holding out hope that she was still alive (that voodoo doll?), I might have to revise that.  She was pretty crispy.  And there was obviously a fierce some battle.  

I'm gonna miss Crowley.  I wish we could have seen him live, close the gates of Hell - and then what?  I think he could have been fun - and of course closing the gates of hell wouldn't have worked quite as they'd thought, so that would have been an issue they would have had to deal with. 

Spoiler

And they still could have brought in Asmodeus since Crowley didn't want the position anymore.  In fact, maybe As would have been the one working to reopen the gates of Hell.

Sam and Dean are just so good at being Sam and Dean.  I like it when they act in character, which I think they did this episode.  No complaints there.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Well it took me three months but I finally got through all 12 seasons. 

I loved these two episodes - thought there were good moments for both Winchesters. My favorite scene was Sam and Dean talking while leaning against the wall in the bunker. Good stuff. Especially when Dean got the wicked little smile about the grenade launcher.

Sam's scene about "we" to "I" was definitely him taking responsibility for the BMOL stuff. And at first when Dean says he's not going on the hunt, I was like "what?" But then he says he's going to help Mom and that led to the amazing scene between them. I also liked Dean telling Mary that they are who they are because of what they went through and they are badass.

Something small but when Crowley beams into the bunker and Dean hits him immediately and has the knife to his throat - great reaction. 

Not sure how I feel about the whole alternate universe. Time will tell. It could be good or really lame. 

[bettername2come]

"Straight Shawshank this bitch" and "Goggles?" "Goggles amuse me. 22 is better than 23. New appreciation for Sam's speech about it being easier to follow. I really hope this leads to them re-establishing the American Men of Letters more with them in charge. Dean and the rocket launcher saved the day! Jody's awesome. I would love if Alex's role in the spinoff is primarily medical care for hunters. I don't think she should be doing I love that they brought back Roy and Walt. "I'll take a jacked-up Dean Winchester over any 10 other hunters any day." Agreed. Every time I hear Dean say "our perfect family," "the perfect family or so it seemed" from "The Road So Far" kicks up in my head. "Mom, I need you to see me." Those damn manipulative strings again. It's a good performance, but it's Jensen in an emotional scene, so par for the course. It took us twelve years to get a Winchester group hug and I'm gonna enjoy it and Sam's massive wingspan.

As for the second half, I'm kind of amused that. "I've kind of always wanted to punch the devil in the face." Nice foreshadowing. First time I watched this I missed the angelic magic touching the truck before opening the portal. Rowena deserved better. Bobby! I love my annual Bobby appearance. I deserve my annual Bobby appearance. How many universe-hopping shows does the CW need? Five seems excessive. I missed the line that the demon had horns and that the gun was named Rufus. That's sweet. "I've been down before but this, I don't even know where to start." *Crowley appears* "Oh, come on!" Missed that the first time around too. "I have faith in us. You, me, Mom, Cas. And Crowley. Sometimes." That was funny. Sweet that Sam had faith that God would protect them from Lucifer, even if it was just part of the show. I will never tire of Dean shooting Lucifer. Glad that faith in Crowley wasn't misplaced. Love Sam's smile when Cas comes back through the portal. I always like reminders that Cas and Sam love each other too. I kind of love Lucifer saying "thanks, I owe you one" to Mary. I just kind of realized that Dean staring up at the sky after Cas dies is probably him looking for God to bring him back like he always does.

Overall, my least favorite of the double-digit seasons. Better than 9, probably on par with 8 as it has some things I enjoy and some things I hate. And I'm done with the epic rewatch! With twelve minutes to spare!

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, bettername2come said:

And I'm done with the epic rewatch! With twelve minutes to spare!

Nicely done!!! ;)

[Hanahope]

Ok.  So first, I love the grenade launcher, Dean looked very happy to use it.  That bunker really is reinforced.

I too am disappointed not to see the Jody Mary fight, but I’m really glad Jody won.

Sam gives a good speech.  

Everyone really drives fast to get to Jody’s, the bunker, BMOL hq, etc. so quickly.

dont they have to track down the BMOL hunters that left the bunker to find them before Sam and co arrived?

Love that Jody killed the head bitch, and Mary killed Ketch.  I was so afraid Jody would die.  Nice to she lived, for now at least.

Deans speech to Mary was great.  I so get the hate and the love.  He got to her just in time. Sorry we didn’t get to see lady Toni bite it.

will the BMOL come back someday to avenge their comrades??

and the finale.  Great to see ‘Bobby’ again.  I wonder if Mary will meet up with him, since he knew her in that world.

hah, Crowley was a rat, not a bug. and Crowley is finally really dead, going to miss Mark Shepard, but the character is done (and kept pissing me off with the hell hound).  It will be interesting to see how Lucifer survives there, though wouldn’t he exist there too?

 Too bad the angel killing bullets didn’t hurt Lucifer at all.  Oh and loved the side eye Cas gave Dean when he thought the bullets were cool.

and Rowena killed too?  Damn, cleaning house.

NOT CAS TOO!!???  I hope God brings him back again.

i had some hope that the demon prince was lying about Kelly dying, but I guess not.  I suppose yay no evil baby again, but it looks nearly full grown.  I just hope it’s not a god sister retread.

ok finally onto to S13!

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

ok finally onto to S13!

::Throws confetti your way:: Yippie!!!!!

Sorry you have to clean up the confetti now, but at least you have great feeling of accomplishment to keep you happy while you do it! ;)

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

::Throws confetti your way:: Yippie!!!!!

Sorry you have to clean up the confetti now, but at least you have great feeling of accomplishment to keep you happy while you do it! ;)

[ILoveReading]

If anyone is interested, I asked Kim at the con about the scene with Dean and Jody where she give him a little tap on the shoulder and Jensen responds by grabbing her hand wasn't scripted.  She said it was all Jensen. 

She went with her instinct of for the shoulder tap, but Jensen turned it into a whole story with just that little look and a touch. 

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If anyone is interested, I asked Kim at the con about the scene with Dean and Jody where she give him a little tap on the shoulder and Jensen responds by grabbing her hand wasn't scripted.  She said it was all Jensen. 

She went with her instinct of for the shoulder tap, but Jensen turned it into a whole story with just that little look and a touch. 

Jensen is a gift to this show beyond all reason. He makes everything so much better.

[catrox14]

I don't understand why, if Mary REALLY wanted to kill Lucifer, that she didn't give the brass knuckles to each of the boys, cause Lucifer was yammering so much, he wouldn't have noticed her give them the brass knuckles and let them, as stronger people who know how to fight, could have clocked him.

Stupid plot contrivances annoy me.

Edited December 31, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand why, if Mary REALLY wanted to kill Lucifer, that she didn't give the brass knuckles to each of the boys, cause Lucifer was yammering so much, he wouldn't have noticed her give them the brass knuckles and let them, as stronger people who know how to fight, could have clocked him.

Stupid plot contrivances annoy me.

I'm not sure she was trying to kill Lucifer--I'd think she'd know the knuckles alone couldn't do that--but I think she was just trying to punch him back through the rift. I don't think she counted on the Devil grabbing her and pulling her through the rift too, but I think she figured she might now survive her plan considering her telling Sam and Dean she loved them before she went for it. 

But then again, as we know, Mary ain't all that bright and doesn't really think her plans through very well, so who knows maybe she was trying to kill Satan with a couple of brass knuckles?

Edited December 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure she was trying to kill Lucifer--I'd think she'd know the knuckles alone couldn't do that--but I think she was just trying to punch him back through the rift. I don't think she counted on the Devil grabbing her and pulling her through the rift too, but I think she figured she might now survive her plan considering her telling Sam and Dean she loved them before she went for it. 

But then again, as we know, Mary ain't all that bright and doesn't really think her plans through very well, so who knows maybe she was trying to kill Satan with a couple of brass knuckles?

Obviously it was contrivance to make sure that Dean thinks Mary is dead and gone so he can grieve her along with Cas and for Sam to be surrogate father to Jack but it was so stupid how Sam and Dean just stood there doing NOTHING to help Mary.

 I mean I GET IT but it was so poorly staged and written that I was just like OKAY sure, if she wasn't trying to kill him, why wouldn't she just clue the boys in that she was going to try to punch him back through the rift? That's really the problem. She just walks up, starts lecturing the Devil  with  "Leave them alone!", the Devil who just murdered their best friend mind you, and she just casually walks up like fucking Lucifer is going to listen to her at all LOL. 

I mean given the whole point was them trying to lock Lucifer into the AU, why wouldn't they have all 3 try to shove him back through the portal?

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

she just casually walks up like fucking Lucifer is going to listen to her at all

Mary is so brave and spunky. ;)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

Mary is so brave and spunky. ;)

LOL is that what I was supposed to take away? Honestly I though Sam was "acting" there. Like he was like "No Mom...don't.  Don't do the thing I know you are going to do".  Like Dean I will kind of a pass for being catatonic after watching Cas die, but Sam was speaking to Mary and he didn't even put his hand out to stop her or even be like, 'We stand with our mother".

But yeah it was totally a  ridiculous "badass Mary" moment that made no sense other than PLOT PLOT PLOT and not even good plot IMO. So stupid.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Obviously it was contrivance to make sure that Dean thinks Mary is dead and gone so he can grieve her along with Cas and for Sam to be surrogate father to Jack but it was so stupid how Sam and Dean just stood there doing NOTHING to help Mary.

 I mean I GET IT but it was so poorly staged and written that I was just like OKAY sure, if she wasn't trying to kill him, why wouldn't she just clue the boys in that she was going to try to punch him back through the rift? That's really the problem. She just walks up, starts lecturing the Devil  with  "Leave them alone!", the Devil who just murdered their best friend mind you, and she just casually walks up like fucking Lucifer is going to listen to her at all LOL. 

I mean given the whole point was them trying to lock Lucifer into the AU, why wouldn't they have all 3 try to shove him back through the portal?

Well, I don't disagree that the pacing was off on this whole sequence, but if Mary had taken the time to tell them her plan the Devil would've overheard since he was standing right there. And, I think the reason Sam and Dean weren't helping was because they were supposed to be taken by surprise. Which would've worked if the whole thing hadn't been drug out so long--and already been drug out before Mary arrived. So, I think the writing actually makes sense--Mary shows up with the brass knuckles behind her back thinking she might be able to push Lucifer back through the rift if she takes him by surprise, but gets drawn through the rift with him before Sam and Dean have a chance to react--but the way they put it together on-screen made it less so.

Edited December 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

So I've been listening to the music cue playing over Dean's speech to Mary and I can't decide if it's a reworked version of Dean's Family Theme/Americana or a new music cue altogether. I can't find any discussion of it on line either.  It's really bugging me. What do you guys think?

[Wayward Son]

On 26 May 2017 at 8:33 PM, Idahoforspn said:

But we were never shown she could get into his head that well. If she understood his thoughts and feelings we wouldn't have seen her confused by Dean and his reactions.

 

In All in the Family during her confrontation with Dean, while he was trying to stall her so the others can rescue Casifer she states "Where are your thoughts? Something's different."  So she obviously must have been able to get inside Dean's thoughts prior to Chuck protecting her from him. So while I wouldn't go as far as to say she definitely sensed Dean's internal conflict with regards to Mary I would say she could have.

 

On 31 May 2017 at 2:42 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

To be honest, I'm not sure that this isn't what would have happened in 'our' (the SPN) universe even if Sam and Dean had said yes to Lucifer and Michael.  Michael said he would win.  Lucifer also thought he would win.  When Mike cast Luci in the cage in the first place, he also had the other archangels and Chuck to help.  This (that) time around, Chuck wasn't helping, most (all?) of the other archangels were dead, and there were a LOT more demons (and knights of Hell apparently) to help Lucifer.  

I assume you are referring to Swan Song? At that point, outside of Lucifer and Michael themselves, there were two archangels - Gabriel and Raphael. Gabriel was dead while Raphael was still alive to aid Michael if needed. Raphael was not killed by Godstiel until two years after these events (following the year skipped between seasons 5 and 6 and the events of season 6 itself) 

 

On 31 May 2017 at 8:31 PM, catrox14 said:

Azazel is/was alive in the AU because he killed Mary.  The question is why did he kill Mary. Not!Bobby said he ran with Mary until Azazel killed her and that sounds to me like she was just one of the humans that were caught between the War between Heaven and Hell. Maybe the Human Army trying to fend off both the Angels and the Demons in the AU.

If John died at the hands of Azazel only Mary didn't make the deal then perhaps Mary's later reaction later mirrored John i.e. she dedicated the rest of her life to Azazel's destruction and he allowed her to live until she became a genuine threat to his plans? Perhaps she found an alternative Colt? 

 

Of course this is purely speculation as 

Spoiler

IIRC the show has opted to not share any further information about Mary Campbell throughout season 13 so far. 

[Harleycat]

It's too bad we had to wait for them to think that they were probably going to die and get to use the grenade launcher to finally get those smiles from Dean and Sam. Pretty much a perfect scene.

[The Companion]

Ok, I went through several pages of reactions and I want to get through all of it, but I also want to get down my thoughts on these, because I have a lot of thoughts, unsurprisingly. I apologize for retreads. I have never posted without a full review but it is 18 freaking pages. 

First and foremost, I think that even with the flaws this may have been my favorite finale. That is shocking because this has been one of my least favorite seasons. I thought there was a lot of action but it largely stayed out of bad cheesy effects. And it had a lot of heart. Most of it worked for me.

The deaths Admittedly, I don't believe for a second that Castiel is gone. I suspect Jack is going to revive him. That is my best guess. They have killed Castiel one too many times. I am less sure on Crowley, but I don't foreclose the possibility that he returns. Honestly, I am okay if he is gone, and I actually thought his death was the driver for shutting the portal so apparently views on that differ. For me, Crowley has always been way way way too much talk, and they largely seem to have run out of storylines for him that aren't about keeping power. Yawn. With the acknowledgment of that in 22, I sort of hope they will adjust the story if he comes back.

I suspect everyone who has read anything I have written knows how I feel about Rowena LITERALLY BEING TREATED LIKE A FUCKING PROP TO MOVE THE STORY ALONG. I am not going to rant. I used up my ranting on Eileen. Actually, never mind because I have time to digest and I have THOUGHTS.

Rant warning. In the final three episodes of the season, we had 4 recurring female character deaths. Of the 4, three happened without the female character getting so much as a line. Three involved shots of the woman's body alone on the ground (or in the chair) with nobody to mourn them. And three involved the menfolk finding out after the fact with a scene specifically meant to show us how they react. THREE OF FOUR. Women in this show are first and foremost framed as victims. I don't care that they killed them off. In fact, I think Lucifer killing Rowena was probably a logical narrative choice and I was fully expecting it. I am fine with killing off Eileen (despite being bitter), in the context of giving us stakes worth fighting for in the hunter deaths. Salty about the decision, but it's valid. And I am happy to see Lady Ihonestlydon'tremeberhernamebecauseeveryonemakesthemup die at the hands of her own organization. I still don't understand what the fuck story they were trying to tell with her, but I am fine with it. But none of them got hero or villain deaths. They didn't get a protracted battle where they looked like they might win (Ketch, who was also respectfully covered in later scenes, I will note) or a snarky line of self sacrifice (Crowley) or a fight for what's right and just fall short at the feet of someone who loves you scene (Castiel). To that point, even the BMoL head was brought down to passive victim, but I thought that was okayish. At least she got to fucking speak. 

You can't tell me TPTB don't know this. I am not pulling on some deep critical knowledge from my fucking communications degree 16 years ago. This is basic Misogyny in Television 101 and I know people have brought it to their attention because I broke my spoiler code with Charlie. You cannot tell me they are ignorant, so this just feels like a fuck you to women who make up the majority of their fans. 

Anyway, rant over because I really did love these episodes and I want to get to the good. 

The Bunker Escape. Holy shit did I love this. The guys working together. Sam's panic that Dean was under the rubble. Dean's hero moment unlocking the door. Chekov's grenade launcher. Actually exhausting resources to show that they remember where they are. I loved loved loved this. 

Sam and the hunters. The speech was cheesy but I actually loved this. I loved Sam taking responsibility for his actions. I loved the tie in to his apology to Dean earlier because he didn't want to have to keep making decisions. Because following was easier. I don't think he was edging out Dean, I think he was making direct amends. Taking responsibility. Agreeing to take ownership of this task. It isn't like he is asking them to join Sam's hunter club. He is asking them to help him right this wrong and destroy a direct threat. He didn't include Dean because Dean didn't make this mistake and didn't try to dodge the responsibility. And, guys, given how many times decisions have blown up on Sam, I get wanting to stop being the one making them. I would have hated him lumping Dean into the speech and implying Sam didn't drive this truck into the mud. The actual speech was cheesy and good on JP for selling it as hard as he could, but I actually liked the underlying moment. YMMV.

The actual attack was beautifully choreographed. It was tense and exciting and balanced. 

Jody. man, she is the best and I am so happy they didn't kill her. See what you have done, show? You make me dread seeing her. Hooray for the Donna reference 

Dean and Mary. I was initially disappointed that Dean was on Mary duty. He has had some pretty incredible action sequences lately, so it wasn't that. It was that I worried the writing would veer into melodrama given the way they have written Mary this season. I was wrong. These scenes were incredible.

I still think there have been a lot of missteps but I loved everything about this scene. Dean's "I hate you." Dean's discussion of the direct ramifications of Mary's decisions on both of them. The double man tear (now I am singing Single Man Tear). JA murdered the scene. The sadness and heartbreak and betrayal and love all wrapped up in one emotional package. I loved it. 

It was dumb that they did it in the bunker without upgrading the damn locks, but whatever. It was really great.

The hug. 😭😭😭😭😭

The alternaverse. BOBBY!!!! A world without the Winchester boys. How fantastic and bleak was that? I loved alternaBobby and Rufus (way to waste those bullets, guys). I don't know that I even want closure on Mary and Lucifer beyond that (but I am sure I will get it. Sigh). I loved the self sacrifice. I loved Lucifer realizing he had lost. I suspect I will hate any further scenes of either character, but I doubt they are done. Well, unless they kill Mary off screen and show us her mutilated corpse lying in a bathtub while someone calls the guys. #stillsalty 

I am surprised alternate universes have been so lightly explored in this show. I liked this glimpse into one.

The Birth/Baby. ten points to anyone who called accelerated growth (everyone?). The labor scenes were terrible, but in the normal way these things go on tv. Also the baby bump was hilarious. She was carrying the baby in her rib cage? 😆 i did like Castiel as doula and the focus on what she believed her son would create. I guess I am at least happy we don't have to have a second supernatural baby with powers. I never really connected with Kelly, but the storyline played out pretty well in the end for her. Oh, I guess she counts as a death too, but it was such a foregone conclusion that I didn't really group it in. There is an argument to be made about making her the cliche mother figure/saint but I don't really get that riled up about it. She made her peace, even if she never really had a choice. So at least she gets some personal closure.

Final Thoughts. so ends 12 seasons in a matter of months (I need help 😆). I think this was one of my least favorite seasons. Maybe the worst for me because at least the other ones I hated had some good standalone stuff. It was just so joyless and bitter and cynical. And that comes from me, a deeply cynical person with a pitch black sense of humor. Even the standalone episodes were dark and interspersed with the fairly contemptable ongoing storylines. With the full season in the rearview, I still have no clue what the hell they were going for with Mary. I am disappointed that any strides towards interesting female characters got largely fridged (if Jody goes, I may be done, y'all). 

Ultimately, the finale was entertaining. It balanced actually interesting action with some really poignant character beats. I am not exactly dying to see where the story goes next (not that that has ever paid off anyway, PURGATORY STORYLINE), but the finale was fairly well done, IMO. And it reminded me why I really have enjoyed the last 12 seasons, complaints and plotholes notwithstanding.

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Dean and Mary. I was initially disappointed that Dean was on Mary duty. He has had some pretty incredible action sequences lately, so it wasn't that. It was that I worried the writing would veer into melodrama given the way they have written Mary this season. I was wrong. These scenes were incredible.

I still think there have been a lot of missteps but I loved everything about this scene. Dean's "I hate you." Dean's discussion of the direct ramifications of Mary's decisions on both of them. The double man tear (now I am singing Single Man Tear). JA murdered the scene. The sadness and heartbreak and betrayal and love all wrapped up in one emotional package. I loved it. 

The fail of this scene for me is that, once again, it was about everybody but Dean. I can maybe accept that it is in character for Dean not to dwell on himself in the shitshow of ramifications Mary's choices had on all their lives. But I did not need it as a fan. I did not need, once again, to be reminded that Sammy suffered, that Sammy went to Hell*. To be reminded that Dean 'failed' him. Even afterwards, the only textual fear Mary expressed was that Sam wouldn't forgive her.

Apart from Jensen's performance, there was nothing for this Dean fan to like about this scene.

*As far as I can tell, Mary never knew that Dean had died for Sam and gone to Hell.

[The Companion]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The fail of this scene for me is that, once again, it was about everybody but Dean. I can maybe accept that it is in character for Dean not to dwell on himself in the shitshow of ramifications Mary's choices had on all their lives. But I did not need it as a fan. I did not need, once again, to be reminded that Sammy suffered, that Sammy went to Hell*. To be reminded that Dean 'failed' him. Even afterwards, the only textual fear Mary expressed was that Sam wouldn't forgive her.

Apart from Jensen's performance, there was nothing for this Dean fan to like about this scene.

*As far as I can tell, Mary never knew that Dean had died for Sam and gone to Hell.

I can understand the objection. Personally, I thought he very much centered it on himself when he talked about having to be a parent. Plus he got to say he hated her. And he didn't have to apologize for feeling what he was feeling. He didn't take back the hatred and hurt. He said "I hate you . . . And I love you." How fucking powerful is that? He gets to forgiveness not because what she did was okay. He gets there because he accepts that there is space for anger and hurt and hatred and love and understanding. And he doesn't want to put it all behind them and pretend it never happened. He wants to start over. AND he gets to be sad about what happened and angry and hurt but still proud of who he is. In the end, he even gets to say they are badass rather than broken.

I think he centered the Sam stuff on the direct results of the deal and stuff that happened (though I agree reference to being in hell should have been included and JA could have really nailed it on that). But in the end, Dean focused on the emotional fallout and betrayal for himself, rather than concrete events. He got to rail against the unfairness of being forced to grow up and parent.

In some ways, I feel like the heart of so much of the unfairness Dean has faced up to and including putting Sam first is encompassed in his statement below. 

 

And I... I had to be... more than just a brother.

I had to be a father and I had to be a mother, to keep him safe.

And that wasn't fair. And I couldn't do it.

He talks about things that happened to Sam, but he talks about the root of how his life was affected. How he was irrevocably altered by what happened. 

I totally get why some people wanted more, and I don't think more would have been an error, but I found the scene satisfying for me personally.

Totally respect the comments here that felt otherwise. I don't think there is a right or wrong reaction to this scene. I just personally liked it for Dean.

Honestly, I sort of felt like Sam didn't get nearly as much emotional meat this season with regard to Mary, but I am cool with that because I really do feel like it worked to have Dean be the one who took up that space. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

Sam and the hunters. The speech was cheesy but I actually loved this. I loved Sam taking responsibility for his actions. I loved the tie in to his apology to Dean earlier because he didn't want to have to keep making decisions. Because following was easier. I don't think he was edging out Dean, I think he was making direct amends. Taking responsibility. Agreeing to take ownership of this task. It isn't like he is asking them to join Sam's hunter club. He is asking them to help him right this wrong and destroy a direct threat. He didn't include Dean because Dean didn't make this mistake and didn't try to dodge the responsibility. And, guys, given how many times decisions have blown up on Sam, I get wanting to stop being the one making them. I would have hated him lumping Dean into the speech and implying Sam didn't drive this truck into the mud. The actual speech was cheesy and good on JP for selling it as hard as he could, but I actually liked the underlying moment. YMMV.

I remember hating the speech but not exactly why (aside from cutting Dean out) but this reminded me of some of it.  

I understand completely (and agree) that Sam needed to take responsibility for everything he's done wrong in the past.  And I understand him wanting to make things right.  But there are two major things wrong with the way they set it out:  First, (as others have said upthread many times) NOT EVERYONE CAN BE OR *WANTS* TO BE A LEADER.  Personally, I prefer to be the advisor, giving suggestions and pointing out flaws (or possibilities) in the plan instead of being in front.  I'm not good at motivating people or rousing them to action, but I am good at seeing potential problems and coming up with ways around them.  (As many people have pointed out to me, "I think too much.")  That's not a flaw, it's just a difference in personality that is necessary in any battle campaign.  You need to see all sides of the problem in order to come up with a viable plan that's not suicidal.  How many times has Sam complained that Dean shoots first and asks questions later?  That's always been their strength *when they use it*:  Dean and Sam see the problem.  Sam considers all the sides, the two of them work together to come up with a plan based on their own strengths, and then Dean leads the charge.  It's not that he's better, it's that he's better at that role.

Second, and (to me, more important): why in the name of Hunter's Helper would any hunter *want* to follow someone who's screwed up so massively, even if he's seeking redemption?  Let him join, let him work to make a plan (with others), let him fight alongside them to prove himself, but calling the shots?  Nope.  

Look at it this way:  If Gen. Custer had somehow managed to survive Little Bighorn, how many soldiers would follow him into the next battle, no matter how sorry he said he was?  What general would put him in charge of another battle just because he wants to prove himself?  

Because Sam wasn't saying "forgive me, let me prove myself."  He was literally saying:

ROY:So what do you want from us?

SAM: I want you to follow me.  Take the fight to them. To hit them before they hit us. We go in fast and hard and we fight and we beat them down until they give up or until they're dead. Look, they're well-trained and well-armed. Some of us might not make it back. But we will win. We will take down the bad guys because that's what we do. They're scared of us. Yeah. Good. They should be.

That's a rousing-for-the-battle speech, not a strategic one.  He wasn't saying, "look we can beat them because it's what we do.  We're the good guys.  Now let's work together and come up with a plan."  He was saying "trust me."  And that, to me, is as much hubris as all the times he said to Dean, "yeah I screwed up.  I said I was sorry.  Why won't you trust me?"  

Edited March 6, 2020 by ahrtee

[The Companion]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I remember hating the speech but not exactly why (aside from cutting Dean out) but this reminded me of some of it.  

I understand completely (and agree) that Sam needed to take responsibility for everything he's done wrong in the past.  And I understand him wanting to make things right.  But there are two major things wrong with the way they set it out:  First, (as others have said upthread many times) NOT EVERYONE CAN BE OR *WANTS* TO BE A LEADER.  Personally, I prefer to be the advisor, giving suggestions and pointing out flaws (or possibilities) in the plan instead of being in front.  I'm not good at motivating people or rousing them to action, but I am good at seeing potential problems and coming up with ways around them.  (As many people have pointed out to me, "I think too much.")  That's not a flaw, it's just a difference in personality that is necessary in any battle campaign.  You need to see all sides of the problem in order to come up with a viable plan that's not suicidal.  How many times has Sam complained that Dean shoots first and asks questions later?  That's always been their strengths *when they use it*:  Dean and Sam see the problem.  Sam considers all the sides, the two of them work together to come up with a plan based on their own strengths, and then Dean leads the charge.  It's not that he's better, it's that he's better at that role.

Second, and (to me, more important): why in the name of Hunter's Helper would any hunter *want* to follow someone who's screwed up so massively, even if he's seeking redemption?  Let him join, let him work to make a plan (with others), let him fight alongside them to prove himself, but calling the shots?  Nope.  

Look at it this way:  If Gen. Custer had somehow managed to survive Little Bighorn, how many soldiers would follow him into the next battle, no matter how sorry he said he was?  What general would put him in charge of another battle just because he wants to prove himself?  

Because Sam wasn't saying "forgive me, let me prove myself."  He was literally saying:

ROY:So what do you want from us?

SAM: I want you to follow me.  Take the fight to them. To hit them before they hit us. We go in fast and hard and we fight and we beat them down until they give up or until they're dead. Look, they're well-trained and well-armed. Some of us might not make it back. But we will win. We will take down the bad guys because that's what we do. They're scared of us. Yeah. Good. They should be.

That's a rousing-for-the-battle speech, not a strategic one.  He wasn't saying, "look we can beat them because it's what we do.  We're the good guys.  Now let's work together and come up with a plan."  He was saying "trust me."  And that, to me, is as much hubris as all the times he said to Dean, "yeah I screwed up.  I said I was sorry.  Why won't you trust me?"  

Fair points for sure. And you are speaking to my very core as an introverted lawyer. 😆 I joke that I am a worrier and I just went and found someone to pay me so I could be a professional worrier. Lol.

I think the rousing for battle aspect is what made it ring cheesy for me. Also the fact that the hunters were like YEAH instead of basically the reaction you describe. 

So I should have said I loved the aspects of the speech that had Sam taking responsibility from a character perspective and the ties back to the earlier conversation, rather than finding it truly and realistically motivating for his audience. Does that make sense?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I can understand the objection. Personally, I thought he very much centered it on himself when he talked about having to be a parent. Plus he got to say he hated her. And he didn't have to apologize for feeling what he was feeling. He didn't take back the hatred and hurt. He said "I hate you . . . And I love you." How fucking powerful is that? He gets to forgiveness not because what she did was okay. He gets there because he accepts that there is space for anger and hurt and hatred and love and understanding. And he doesn't want to put it all behind them and pretend it never happened. He wants to start over. AND he gets to be sad about what happened and angry and hurt but still proud of who he is. In the end, he even gets to say they are badass rather than broken.

I think he centered the Sam stuff on the direct results of the deal and stuff that happened (though I agree reference to being in hell should have been included and JA could have really nailed it on that). But in the end, Dean focused on the emotional fallout and betrayal for himself, rather than concrete events. He got to rail against the unfairness of being forced to grow up and parent.

In some ways, I feel like the heart of so much of the unfairness Dean has faced up to and including putting Sam first is encompassed in his statement below. 

 

And I... I had to be... more than just a brother.

I had to be a father and I had to be a mother, to keep him safe.

And that wasn't fair. And I couldn't do it.

I can't go too far into this discussion without swerving directly into BvJ territory, and you can't read that thread yet, so, I'll just comment what I can for now. Yes, Dean got to mention that he was parentified. I think we have different definitions of what railing is - he got two sentences that were actually about himself. And then he got to say he failed at it - with nobody to contest it. That's the problem. There never very rarely is. Things like this are continually left to stand.

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

Honestly, I sort of felt like Sam didn't get nearly as much emotional meat this season with regard to Mary,

Just wait. They'll address this perception shortly.

Spoiler

And to no one's surprise, it will be Dean's fault.

 

[The Companion]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't go too far into this discussion without swerving directly into BvJ territory, and you can't read that thread yet, so, I'll just comment what I can for now. Yes, Dean got to mention that he was parentified. I think we have different definitions of what railing is - he got two sentences that were actually about himself. And then he got to say he failed at it - with nobody to contest it. That's the problem. There never very rarely is. Things like this are continually left to stand.

Just wait. They'll address this perception shortly.

  Reveal spoiler

And to no one's surprise, it will be Dean's fault.

 

I am so close to getting to read all the ancillary threads! 

As I said, I don't think your perspective is any less valid than mine and I always appreciate getting your viewpoint as I work through these episodes, even when we differ. So thank you for that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I am so close to getting to read all the ancillary threads! 

Be careful what you wish for. LOL!!