The Kennedys: After Camelot - General Discussion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

A four part mini-series on Reelz (a follow up to the 2011 mini-series The Kennedys) starring Katie Holmes as Jacqueline Kennedy and Matthew Perry as Ted Kennedy:

Quote

The Sequel to the Emmy® award-winning miniseries, "The Kennedys: After Camelot," is an unflinching look at those who carried the Kennedy name – and the expectations of history – following the murders of Jack and Bobby. It depicts the complicated public and private life of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis (Katie Holmes), her marriage to Greek billionaire Aristotle Onassis (Alexander Siddig) and her challenges with her son John F. Kennedy, Jr. as he struggles with school, work and his self-identity. The 4-hour miniseries also follows the complex life of Senator Edward M. “Ted” Kennedy (Matthew Perry), the youngest son, as he tries to pick up the mantle of his fallen brothers while dealing with alcoholism, infidelity and the shocking events at Chappaquiddick which resulted in the death of a young woman.

Edited April 5, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Katie Holmes and Matthew Perry on Build:

[Cara]

Matthew Perry makes no logical sense as Ted Kennedy. But, for some unknown reason it is working for me. I'm enjoying it and looking forward to Sunday.

[IndianPaintbrush]

Matthew Perry's performance is awful IMO.  I just don't see Ted Kennedy in his face or voice.  

Katie Holmes is much better than I thought she would be.  Can't help but compare her to Natalie Portman.  Portman's Jackie was fascinating, but very cold and distant.  Holmes' Jackie is much softer and more approachable.

[Autistic Queer]

Picking up with Ted here doesn't make sense, they missed out him running for the senate, and his plane crash in 1964. I thought they might do flashbacks like the original series, but it doesn't seem like it. The thing with Joe saying no in real life was about his back surgery, after what happened with Rosemary. Ive never heard that he told Ted not to run. And I like my Kennedy books. 

The problem for anyone playing a Kennedy is we all know the real thing. But with Jack and Bobby it's a short, distant memory, Ted is a much more recent figure. 

I read Ted Kennedy's autobiography, and the thing I noticed about his first marriage was how rarely he mentioned Joan, or talked of them doing things together, even when their son was ill. Yet he barely talks about doing anything outside the senate without his second wife. 

Also in the first episode Ethel isn't pregnant at Bobby's deathbed. She was heavily pregnant with her daughter Rory when he was shot. 

[Katydid]

Overall I thought it was pretty good.  I do think it was a bit odd, especially during the JFK Jr. scenes and when Jackie was dying, that they didn't show or mention Caroline.  I guess with her still being alive they just didn't want to go there?  The actor playing JFK Jr. was handsome, but of course no one can come close to the real thing.  I often wonder whether he'd be a senator of even president by now had he lived. 

[Cara]

I think one of the problems was it was too short! What I mean is they tried to put too many years and events into just 4 hours of TV.

 

Has anyone read the book on which this was based?

[Cara]

On 4/8/2017 at 5:55 PM, AutisticSpoonie said:

 

Also in the first episode Ethel isn't pregnant at Bobby's deathbed. She was heavily pregnant with her daughter Rory when he was shot. 

Rory wasn't born until Dec. so Ethel wouldn't have been showing too much in June. However, it seems like I've seen pictures of her at the time of the assassination and she was showing a little. I agree they should have given her a bit of a belly in that scene, at least to make the point that she was pregnant at the time of his death.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Cara

[Autistic Queer]

3 hours ago, Cara said:

I think one of the problems was it was too short! What I mean is they tried to put too many years and events into just 4 hours of TV.

Has anyone read the book on which this was based?

I've got the book on my list to read. 

I agree it was too much into too short a time. I've read a lot of books and watch a lot of documentaries about the Kennedy's and they are a big complex family. I think you have to choose between telling a story about specific events or family members, or you need more time that four hours. 

Also I think they spent too much time on Chappaquiddick, it felt like they went over and over the same ground. One of the things I noticed in Ted Kennedys autobiography was he is often with his sisters and brothers-in-law, they're barely mentioned here. 

I think they got the legacy of Jack and Bobby weighed on Ted, but I read Chris Lawford's book, and he talked about how especially after Jack died Bobby was a father figure for a lot of the Kennedy children and spent a lot of time with them, and Ted tried to do that after Bobby died, but it wasn't the same. 

Also according to Ted Kennedy's autobiography Joan didn't touch a drop of alcohol when their son was getting his cancer treatment. 

[CeeBeeGee]

I liked this, although the way they ignored Caroline and the Kennedy sisters was odd.

Wasn't crazy about the actors playing John Jr. and Carolyn Bessette--neither were as gorgeous as those two were IRL. The actor playing JJ had a weird, "small" mouth that looked a little too feminine for me.

I did like Matthew Perry as Teddy and I didn't expect to. I also thought the actor playing Rose was excellent. Joan broke my heart. Loved her gently, politely icing him at the end.

Alexander seemed so sweet to Jackie when he was dancing with her--I though he disliked her along with Christina?

I think I've read somewhere that Ari really did say those horrible things to Jackie after Alexander died but I wish the script had shown why??? It seemed like such a cruel, personal thing to say to a woman whose husband was murdered in front of her. Where did that come from?

[Cara]

On 4/10/2017 at 5:05 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

I liked this, although the way they ignored Caroline and the Kennedy sisters was odd.

Wasn't crazy about the actors playing John Jr. and Carolyn Bessette--neither were as gorgeous as those two were IRL. The actor playing JJ had a weird, "small" mouth that looked a little too feminine for me.

 

 

Yes, I also found it quite odd the way Caroline and some other family members were ignored.

 I thought JFK Jr. was a very nice looking man. But I have to be honest I didn't think Carolyn Bessette was anything special, I found her to be very average looking at best.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Cara

[SWLinPHX]

There are only a very few TV movies (and no feature films) that dealt with Jackie and Ari's marriage, if you don't count 1978's "The Greek Tycoon" (which was based on their story but fabricated with different names).  There is 1988's "Onassis: The Richest Man In The World" and 1991's Emmy for Best Miniseries "A Woman Named Jackie".  In that three part series they also show their marriage disintegrate as she came to realize Ari considered her a "get" -- some sort of prized possession -- and he became disillusioned with her lavish spending and then was devastated by the loss of his son in a plane crash.  In that he snaps at Jackie aboard his yacht in the presence of Christina, about how "cold and cool and aloof" she was and that she had "ice flowing thru her veins", citing how the public never saw her cry and trying to make it out that she was unfeeling.  He took out his grief on her and sadly never fully recovered emotionally or physically, though had he lived they'd have surely gone thru with the divorce.  I was living in Europe that same year.

The only two to deal with Jackie's and John's death were this and "America's Prince: The JFK Jr. Story".  So hard to believe he only outlived his mother by 5 short years and never even made it to the 21st Century.  This made me sad all over.

Edited April 15, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Autistic Queer]

I've been listening to the book this is based on and honestly they missed out the interesting stuff. There's a bit about how Sarge Schriver always felt he had to take second place to 'real' Kennedys, how Bobby's elder sons in particular went off the rails, Ethel really not being able to handle it, and Jean's son trial for rape. And that a lot of the reasons the third generation struggled was this idea The had to serve, they had to find a way to be of service, that they could never live up to the previous generation.

I'm still listening, it's at the part where Ted and Joe the third wanted annulments for their first marriages which I'd always look at as selfishness on their parts, but I never realised they weren't just Christmas and Easter catholics, this genuinely meant something to them. I still think I agree with Joe's wife, but it wasn't as self-serving as I first thought. 

It's a great read which I recommend, also Jackie, Ethel, Joan by the same author. 

[candall]

Just finished the first half.

1.  Katie Holmes surprised and impressed me.

2.  I thought if I had to hear Matthew Perry say "Joansie" one more time, I'd have to reach through the screen and smack him.

[SWLinPHX]

19 hours ago, candall said:

I thought if I had to hear Matthew Perry say "Joansie" one more time, I'd have to reach through the screen and smack him.

LOL, yeah, me too!  He did an okay enough job, but I still wouldn't have cast someone as known for a specific sarcastic character type like Perry to play someone as iconic as Ted Kennedy.

[SWLinPHX]

23 hours ago, AutisticSpoonie said:

I've been listening to the book this is based on and honestly they missed out the interesting stuff. There's a bit about how Sarge Schriver always felt he had to take second place to 'real' Kennedys, how Bobby's elder sons in particular went off the rails, Ethel really not being able to handle it, and Jean's son trial for rape. And that a lot of the reasons the third generation struggled was this idea The had to serve, they had to find a way to be of service, that they could never live up to the previous generation.

I'm still listening, it's at the part where Ted and Joe the third wanted annulments for their first marriages which I'd always look at as selfishness on their parts, but I never realised they weren't just Christmas and Easter catholics, this genuinely meant something to them. I still think I agree with Joe's wife, but it wasn't as self-serving as I first thought. 

It's a great read which I recommend, also Jackie, Ethel, Joan by the same author.

Yes, when the saying was "Kennedys don't cry" Sarge always said, "Yeah, well Shrivers do!"  Both he and Jackie worked hard to make sure their kids were only "half Kennedy" and didn't lose the influence from the other side of their family, something that was not a small feat.

"Jackie, Ethel & Joan" was made into a TV miniseries already about ten years ago.

A truly ambitious future miniseries should be based on the book "Growing Up Kennedy" about the third generation of 29 cousins.  There is so much material there, from the scandals and/or deaths involving David, Michael, Joe, Jr. and Patrick, etc. and all the cousins' wild days as teens in the 1970's.  Even the Michael Skakel murder case is in the news again.

Edited April 22, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Sarah 103]

On April 21, 2017 at 5:25 PM, AutisticSpoonie said:

And that a lot of the reasons the third generation struggled was this idea The had to serve, they had to find a way to be of service, that they could never live up to the previous generation.

What's interesting is that you see a divide in the third generation between the men and the women. For whatever reason the men had a much harder time and were more likely to go off the rails, while the women did okay and mostly avoided brushes with the tabloid press for stupid stuff. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Sarah 103

[UsernameFatigue]

On 4/22/2017 at 1:56 PM, SWLinPHX said:

LOL, yeah, me too!  He did an okay enough job, but I still wouldn't have cast someone as known for a specific sarcastic character type like Perry to play someone as iconic as Ted Kennedy.

I thought the casting was well done (for the most part) but wondered why Perry was cast as Teddy, Then I saw that Perry was executive producer, so I guess that answers the question.  

[MrsMoltisanti]

I enjoyed this series, short as it was.  Not much Caroline though.  Christina Onassis did not resemble the real Christina and I wish they would have showed more of the actual funeral - from what I read, Jackie, Ted and Christina got into an altercation in the limo over money and Christina got out of the limo.  

[NutMeg]

On 4/23/2017 at 11:21 AM, Sarah 103 said:

What's interesting is that you see a divide in the third generation between the men and the women. For whatever reason the men had a much harder time and were more likely to go off the rails, while the women did okay and mostly avoided brushes with the tabloid press for stupid stuff. 

My reply is slightly off topic, but some sociology studies highlight more generally that women fare better than men (in terms of studies, jobs, problems with the law, etc.) within migrant families moving from a patriarcal society to a less patriarcal culture. Maybe that's relevant here in that the focus for at least one generation seems to have been mostly on the boys in the family.

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, NutMeg said:

My reply is slightly off topic, but some sociology studies highlight more generally that women fare better than men (in terms of studies, jobs, problems with the law, etc.) within migrant families moving from a patriarcal society to a less patriarcal culture. Maybe that's relevant here in that the focus for at least one generation seems to have been mostly on the boys in the family.

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I understand how it applies here. Is the theory that while everyone was paying attention to the men in John Jr.'s generation (which is when things more or less went off the rails for many of the men) the women did better and flourished because they were wasn't the same kind of pressure/expectations on the women? 

[NutMeg]

13 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I understand how it applies here. Is the theory that while everyone was paying attention to the men in John Jr.'s generation (which is when things more or less went off the rails for many of the men) the women did better and flourished because they were wasn't the same kind of pressure/expectations on the women? 

I'm not even sure it applies! But if it does, I would think that because the men had gathered a lot of attention in the previous generation, the young ones (John Jr.'s generation) had big shoes to fill. Add to that that it seems that big things seemed to have been expected of men within the family, so that's an added pressure. Not matching implicit/internalised high expectations can lead to a sentiment of failure, and then a higher possibility of going off the rails. In contrast, the women could have had more leeway to find their own path because they were not implicitly expected to follow in the footsteps of the men of the previous generation and more generally were therefore allowed more freedom to choose how thy wanted to live their life without rigid models to conform to.

Or maybe I'm just spitballing here :) 

[Atlanta]

On 4/11/2017 at 9:10 PM, Cara said:

 I thought JFK Jr. was a very nice looking man. But I have to be honest I didn't think Carolyn Bessette was anything special, I found her to be very average looking at best.

I found Jr attractive, but not the end-all-be-all of men like some people think, and sort of feel this way about Carolyn. Carolyn had an 'it' factor, but I found the actress who played her to be prettier than the RL version. 

[Cara]

I don't listen to a lot of books. So this maybe normal. I don't know. Anyway,this one is quite long, and I am very  busy right now and don't have a lot of time to just sit and read.So I bought the Kindle version and the audio version . I thought I could alternate between reading and listening. The  narrator on the audio version is completely annoying. He attempts to do the Kennedy quotes with a New England accent. I wish he would simply just read the book! LOL 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Cara

[BitterApple]

Carolyn had the tall, blonde, skinny thing going for her, but facially she wasn't attractive at all. 

[Avaleigh]

On 4/22/2017 at 2:01 PM, SWLinPHX said:

Yes, when the saying was "Kennedys don't cry" Sarge always said, "Yeah, well Shrivers do!"  Both he and Jackie worked hard to make sure their kids were only "half Kennedy" and didn't lose the influence from the other side of their family, something that was not a small feat.

"Jackie, Ethel & Joan" was made into a TV miniseries already about ten years ago.

A truly ambitious future miniseries should be based on the book "Growing Up Kennedy" about the third generation of 29 cousins.  There is so much material there, from the scandals and/or deaths involving David, Michael, Joe, Jr. and Patrick, etc. and all the cousins' wild days as teens in the 1970's.  Even the Michael Skakel murder case is in the news again.

Please let this happen. I'd be all over it. They could even do flashbacks when appropriate. 

ETA:

I'd also like a series that's just based on the Kennedy family's time in London when Joe was the ambassador. Or maybe even just covering the Kennedys from 1938-1948. The war years for that family are also worthy of their own series IMO. When I think of all of the great opportunities for acting roles. Neville Chamberlain, King George and Queen Elizabeth, Pope Pius XI, etc. All of the various friends and love interests of the siblings. Billy and Andrew Cavendish, Inga Arvad, Pat Wilson, Deborah Mitford, David Ormsby Gore, Sylvia Thomas, etc. It could be a nice production if they cast well and have a decent script and budget.   

Edited May 30, 2017 by Avaleigh

[Sarah 103]

On May 30, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Avaleigh said:

I'd also like a series that's just based on the Kennedy family's time in London when Joe was the ambassador. Or maybe even just covering the Kennedys from 1938-1948. The war years for that family are also worthy of their own series IMO. When I think of all of the great opportunities for acting roles. Neville Chamberlain, King George and Queen Elizabeth, Pope Pius XI, etc. All of the various friends and love interests of the siblings. Billy and Andrew Cavendish, Inga Arvad, Pat Wilson, Deborah Mitford, David Ormsby Gore, Sylvia Thomas, etc. It could be a nice production if they cast well and have a decent script and budget.   

I think 1938-1948 would be a fantastic miniseries. Start it with Joe's time as ambassador to London, and end it with the aftermath of Kathleen's death. 

On April 22, 2017 at 5:01 PM, SWLinPHX said:

A truly ambitious future miniseries should be based on the book "Growing Up Kennedy" about the third generation of 29 cousins.  There is so much material there, from the scandals and/or deaths involving David, Michael, Joe, Jr. and Patrick, etc. and all the cousins' wild days as teens in the 1970's.  Even the Michael Skakel murder case is in the news again.

Third generation means John Jr. and his cousins correct? This could work as a highly ambitious mini-series.  

[SWLinPHX]

On 6/3/2017 at 5:35 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Third generation means John Jr. and his cousins correct? This could work as a highly ambitious mini-series.  

Yes.  Of the original nine Kennedy children of four sons (Joe Jr., John, Robert & Edward) and five daughters (Kathleen, Rosemary, Eunice, Patricia & Jean) only six had children since Joe Jr. and Kathleen died young and Rosemary received a lobotomy.  There were 29 cousins total (counting the Asian girls adopted by Jean & husband, but not counting JFK & Jackie's son Patrick who died shortly after birth).  They grew up primarily in the counterculture of the 1960's and 70's.

John & Jackie Bouvier had 2, Robert & Ethel Skakel had 11, Edward & Joan Bennett had 3, Eunice & Sargent Shriver had 5, Patricia & Peter Lawford had 4 and Jean and Stephen Smith had 4).

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, Atlanta said:

I found Jr attractive, but not the end-all-be-all of men like some people think, and sort of feel this way about Carolyn. Carolyn had an 'it' factor, but I found the actress who played her to be prettier than the RL version. 

I don't see anyone credited for the role of Carolyn at IMDb.  Even Brett Donahue, who I assume played the adult John, Jr., is listed as "uncredited."

I would agree that RL Carolyn had a striking appearance, but I would not call her pretty.

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:28 PM, SWLinPHX said:

Yes.  Of the original nine Kennedy children of four sons (Joe Jr., John, Robert & Edward) and five daughters (Kathleen, Rosemary, Eunice, Patricia & Jean) only six had children since Joe Jr. and Kathleen died young and Rosemary received a lobotomy.  

To clarify, Joe, Jr., and Kathleen were both in their late 20s when they died (29 and 28, respectively), so it's quite possible they could have had children, particularly Kathleen, who married at 24.  The fact that Kathleen's marriage was cut short at four months (her husband died in WWII) didn't help.  The bond between these two siblings during their time in London is quite an interesting story as is JFK's bond with "Kick," whose death reportedly devastated him.  

[Atlanta]

I think she was played by Erica Cox.