Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tv echo]

In addition to what was said above, I think Oliver also didn't tell Diggle and Felicity because he was afraid they might be able to talk him out of it (like his dream where Felicity pleads with him not to go fight Ra's and he agrees in the dream) -- and he was doing what he thought had to be done even though he didn't want to do it.  Also, they could have taken steps to make it impossible for him to proceed with his plan (same reason that Roy/DIggle/Felicity didn't tell Oliver about their 'faking Roy's death' plan).

Edited June 4, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

Thinking about the episode "Sara" that reran Wednesday night, and Oliver telling Diggle at the end of the episode that he didn't want to die down there....

The "I don't want to die down here" was some great acting from SA, but ultimately it falls flat. I'm not saying this as an Olicity shipper, because I'm not one, but story wise, since Felicity was the one to say that to him in the first place, it just felt like she should have been the one he said back to, just narratively speaking. The story just leads to that, and it feels odd because it doesn't actually happen. Not that there's anything wrong with the scene with Oliver and Diggle, but it feels like there should have been a follow-up scene where Oliver goes to find Felicity and tells her that.

I think it's supposed to lead to Oliver going to look for Thea in the following episode. And that thread is strong through the episode, with Oliver's visibly rising tension and need to talk to his little sister. But to me it feels contrived that Oliver can come to the realization that he needs other people, he needs family, and yet still hold Felicity away. I feel like it would have worked better for Oliver and Felicity to have come together at the end of this episode and worked together through the first half of the season, before things (maybe Malcolm) got between them and tore them apart temporarily for the last part of the season. I think it would have given the relationship more of a basis in order to handle the drama of 3B. I don't know. It might have undercut their whole identity thing somehow (although I don't think that narrative thread was as strong as they thought it was), and they would have had to have found another way to get Felicity into Palmer Tech, but I don't think that would have been hard. I don't know. I guess this is a weird opinion coming from me, a non-shipper, but after watching "Sara" last night, I just couldn't get past the feeling that doing it how they did was just too overly-contrived, and it would have felt more natural letting the story go another way.

[statsgirl]

I'm okay with Oliver having the realization and saying it to Diggle rather than Felicity because Diggle is a very important part of his life, he's the dispenser of wisdom and also someone who Oliver had pushed away just the last episode.  After their rooftop scene, it was like a follow-up acknowledgement that he needs Diggle around.  I think to say it to Felicity at that point would have pushed them too close together too soon because after saying it to her, there would have been no excuse not hug and get back to their pre-rocket relationship.  And she'd already left to take the job with Palmer.

 

What I really hate is that Oliver deliberately started connecting to all the important people in his life who are still alive -- Thea, Diggle, even Roy in Guilty -- and yet still continued to push Felicity away.  It's just such cheap writing to make the Oliver/Felicity/Ray triangle happen, which was really an Arrow/Oliver/Felicity triangle anyway.  It made no sense in terms of plot or characterization.

 

If you realize that you need to be emotionally connected to people, especially the important people in your life, you don't strengthen connections with three of them but still push away the one person who helped you find the realization, much less keep hurting her again and again knowing that you're doing it.

Edited June 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, he really only gave up QC and Felicity.  If anything he worked on his relationships with Roy and Diggle, and especially Thea, to make them closer and stronger.  He only shat on QC and Felicity. 

[DrSpaceman10]

I think that a lot of the (sometimes out of character) plot choices that Arrow's made since mid-Season Two were about delaying Oliver/Felicity. First there was Barry (sort of), then Sara (which the EPs themselves described as a roadblock to Oliver/Felicity), then the "fake" I love you, followed by "I can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow", then Ray, and finally Al Sah-Him.

I guess the EPs worried about what would happen if they put Oliver/Felicity together earlier than the end of Season Three, even if, in my opinion, that would have been the much more natural course of action.

It'll be interesting to see whether they let Oliver/Felicity stay together or whether they make them into an on-again/off-again couple. Some of Marc Guggenheim's comments toward the end of the season (ie: Oliver/Felicity are always in flux), make me think it's the latter, but we'll see.

[Starfish35]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying he should have said it to Felicity instead of Diggle. I'm saying he should have said it to her as a follow up to that scene with Diggle.

I think to say it to Felicity at that point would have pushed them too close together too soon because after saying it to her, there would have been no excuse not hug and get back to their pre-rocket relationship.  And she'd already left to take the job with Palmer.

But that's my point. I think they should have gone back to that. Let them actually be together for awhile before tearing them apart. Bypass Raylicity altogether. Oliver and Felicity could still have broken up in 312, and then gotten back together at the end like planned.

 

What I really hate is that Oliver deliberately6 started connecting to all the important people in his life who are still alive -- Thea, Diggle, even Roy in Guilty -- and yet still continued to push Felicity away.  It's just such cheap writing to make the Oliver/Felicity/Ray triangle happen, which was really an Arrow/Oliver/Felicity triangle anyway.  It made no sense in terms of plot or characterization.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. It's just contrived to put distance between Oliver and Felicity to make space for Raylicity. And it just doesn't work for me as far as the story goes.

My apologies if this has already been discussed to death. :( The downfalls of me just now seeing this part of the story for myself.

[statsgirl]

I think that after I saw the finale, I was so grateful it all turned out right in the end that I pushed aside the big problems of the season.  But on rewatching, Oliver's stupid decisions about the people close to him seem just ..... so stupid, and such contrived writing.  I"m still angry that they wrote Diggle as all on Team Oliver in Draw Back Your Bow.  Felicity should have emotional PTSD x 10 from this season.

 

I never again want to see Oliver's puppy dog eyes for a reason that didn't need to happen.

[Genki]

If I recall a lot of us found Sara odd because it was the first time Oliver & Felicity fought and did not make up or come to an understanding in the episode...and they were unnaturally disconnected throughout the season. I would have like it if they did date a little longer than 1/4 of an episode.

 

I think that after I saw the finale, I was so grateful it all turned out right in the end that I pushed aside the big problems of the season.  But on rewatching, Oliver's stupid decisions about the people close to him seem just ..... so stupid, and such contrived writing.  I"m still angry that they wrote Diggle as all on Team Oliver in Draw Back Your Bow.  Felicity should have emotional PTSD x 10 from this season.

 

I never again want to see Oliver's puppy dog eyes for a reason that didn't need to happen.

 

Felicity's isolation will forever be attributed to Palmer Island for me, so I do not blame Diggle or Oliver. Just like Diggle's side-lining was for the Rise of the BC.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Genki

[Morena]

Where's the love? Why superhero TV shows are so reluctant to include romance.

http://theweek.com/articles/558641/wheres-love-why-superhero-tv-shows-are-reluctant-include-romance

[kismet]

Totally agree that for plot purposes FS was shipwrecked on Palmer Island to help prop Ray. It was really not about her or her identity journey. So I agree with whoever said they  should drop the "themes" of the seasons on one of these threads, because they really do stink at keeping to the themes.

 

But if I am inclined to analyze the FS/OQ relationship from a relationship perspective and ignore the fact that most of their isolation from each other was for plot purposes - I would have to say that there was a mutual pushing away from each other. Oliver was the one to push first & push hardest. However, Felicity was in no rush to put herself out there either. Everytime, he pushed she just accepted. Everytime he left an opening, she did not jump to fill it. She was pushing him away as well. I feel like had she wanted to, she could have staked a claim and called him on some of his fears sooner. She could have made him see that it was worth the risk and she was willing to try. But she had made her mind mid-season that she was done trying. I don't think either of them handled his return from the dead in an emotionally healthy manner. He pushed her further away & isolated himself - regressing back to a lot of his s1 persona. And she went head on into a relationship with Ray to fulfill what she was missing from OQ. I do think she cared for Ray, but as it has been mentioned numerous times & places. Most of her major relationships moments with came directly as a result of something Oliver did.  

 

I'm not saying her actions are without merit. She was trying to move forward. Putting your heart on the line is a scary propostion. Add to that putting it on the line for someone as emotionally scarred and challenging as Oliver is, puts the fear/worry/gamble on a whole other level. I think they both recognized that they had a lot to lose if they pursued an actual relationship. So the whole push/pull dance they did for most of the season worked for them in their minds until it didn't which was becoming obvious to anyone by the time OQ came back from his suicide mission to NP#2.

 

I can understand both of them being motivated by a fear. In real life, I'm sure they would have talked to each other. Other their friends would have intervened and made them talk to each other. But alas, in the world of TV those types of conversations can only happen in end of April/May. That being said, the transition from what they were in the end of s2 to what they were at the end of s3 was never going to be easy. I think to some extent it was realistic. Colleagues/Partners to more than friends to lovers is never an easy one, esp when you spend so much time together in life/death situations on a regualr basis. But there was an over-abundance of angst that was unnecessary if only because it was never balanced out by happier moments in the earlier part of the season. In addition, there was an over-reliance on for plot purposes that interrupted many of the emotional characterizations for all the characters.

[BkWurm1]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying he should have said it to Felicity instead of Diggle. I'm saying he should have said it to her as a follow up to that scene with Diggle.

But that's my point. I think they should have gone back to that. Let them actually be together for awhile before tearing them apart. Bypass Raylicity altogether. Oliver and Felicity could still have broken up in 312, and then gotten back together at the end like planned.

 

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. It's just contrived to put distance between Oliver and Felicity to make space for Raylicity. And it just doesn't work for me as far as the story goes.

My apologies if this has already been discussed to death. :( The downfalls of me just now seeing this part of the story for myself.

No I think you are spot on.  The writers had to contrive to find reason to keep Felicity and Oliver apart when their natural relationship  would have had them at the very least tentatively reconnecting and trying to start something slowly.  I mean it took Oliver ONE episode to figure out he didn't want to die alone and wanted to be more connected to the people he loved...as long as he was not IN love with that person and why the distinction, well, the show never got around to explaining it. 

 

If the show runners were set on not letting Oliver and Felicity have their big moment until the end of the season they could have let them talk after Sara and basically reset their relationship to friendship with the understanding that he was working on his issues (which would have taken away the very heavy uncomfortable vibe they had waaaay too much of in the first half of the season and then had the emotional farewell in The Climb and still stuck with the rift over Malcolm. 

 

It's really such a small change but it would have profoundly changed the feel of at least the first half of the season and frankly, I think we needed the break from the doom and gloom.  

 

I would have to say that there was a mutual pushing away from each other. Oliver was the one to push first & push hardest. However, Felicity was in no rush to put herself out there either. Everytime, he pushed she just accepted. Everytime he left an opening, she did not jump to fill it. She was pushing him away as well. I feel like had she wanted to, she could have staked a claim and called him on some of his fears sooner. She could have made him see that it was worth the risk and she was willing to try.

 

I don't think there is anything that Felicity could have said or done to talk him past his issues but I do think they IRL would have talked and come to an understanding of why he had his issues which IMO would have let them fall back into their old friendship until 3.12 caused new problems.  Felicity accepted what he said but she wasn't pushing him away.  We saw her trying to return to their "normal" but Oliver having none of it.  Except for the crossovers which were exceptions and her episode in 3.05, Oliver was brusque and closed off with her.  She eventually stopped trying to reach him but short of Diggle locking them in a room together (which I remember being in favor of) I don't think there was any way of forcing Oliver to talk or listen. 

[kismet]

@BkWurm1 you are probably right to some degree. There was probably no way Felicity could have talked OQ out of his issues. But she didn't indicate that she wanted more than a friendship after episode 2. I get your perspective, even if I disagree. From my perspective, she was content with the friendship and not willing to try for more for whatever reason (Im not sure, the writers never really told us why). And for OQ the friendship wasn't enough but it also was too much at the same time. Which in his emotionally fragmented mind, I totally understand. I saw OQ pushing her away and I saw her willingly walking away.

 

I wanted her to stand up before the midseason finale and declare that OQ meant something more to her. I wanted her to take a stand and try to pursue him despite him pulling away, for me that would have made a huge difference as a viewer. I probably also would have been more accepting of the Ray/FS relationship, because I would have seen FS try to get what she wanted, fail and then move on. Instead I just saw her replacing OQ with RP. I sorta wanted her to call OQ on the whole RP date/Cupid episode - that it mattered to her that he had no opinion about whether she went out to dinner with a handsome billionaire or not. I wanted her to directly ask him if he cared - or call him on his bullshit that rather than talking to her, he decided to have a pointed one-way conversation over comms. At least she should have told him something before he went off in the midseason finale, even if she was moving on. Make some comment about she loves him but knows he has to do this for his sister.

 

My problem with FS is that she never said or made a stand about her relationship with OQ until 320. Everything else was people telling her or audience interpretation. Even the woman you love comment, which I enjoyed told me nothing about how she was feeling. I thought that the audience & OQ or Dig deserved to know something about her feelings from her prior to 320, even if she waited to tell OQ until 320. I don't care if OQ listened or was willing to talk to her about stuff, but she should have tried to say something. FS for nearly an entire season made no effort to establish a romantic relationship with OQ until it was pretty much a forced issue because he was surrendering to LoA. Yes, she might have tried to salvage their friendship at points, but she wasn't trying for anything more.

 

So yes OQ can take a hit for pushing her away. But she deserves some blame for walking away without even really trying. Like she said in 301, as soon as they talked it was over. That's all she was giving him was one conversation to completely change his mind. Yes, he should have been more willing to try to be open to his emotions. But she didn't have to shut him down after one conversation, either. I think they are both to blame for their false start in s3, its not 50/50 - but its not all OQ's fault that they failed at their first attempt to have a more than platonic relationship. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by kismet

[EmeraldArcher]

PART 1 ( to avoid a giant wall of text):

I really, really want to participate in the current discussion of Oliver and Felicity's S3 relationship, but I'm still doing my series re-watch and am on S1 E21, "The Undertaking." And, OMG, just ewww! There's a scene between Oliver and Laurel in his bedroom when Laurel speaks the exact same line as Sara from the pilot: "Hey, Ollie, where do you keep the bottle opener in this thing?"

I hope I'm not re-hashing a discussion you had a few years ago, but that writing choice is revolting! Are the writers trying to tell us that the Lance sisters are completely interchangeable?!? They both say the same lines to Oliver, they both sleep with him, they both have relationships with him, they both have conversations about getting a place with him, and they both don black leather outfits to fight crime. I know that Oliver gets a lot of flack for sister-swapping, but I'm starting to think he was just seriously confused as to whether there was one Lance girl or two Lance sisters. Also, both sisters rekindle relationships with him with a desperate lunge toward sex--and neither relationship lasts.

Edited June 7, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[romantic idiot]

I think the writers just like writing a certain way, and apart from Oliver, Diggle and Felicity (and maybe Roy and Walter), the rest of them don't really have unique voices / ways of talking. 

 

About the FS not fighting for Oliver argument, I think it would hold more water if there was any doubt in anyone's mind over Felicity's feelings, and I don't think there was. The interesting thing is that Oliver has always known that Felicity likes him. He's never doubted that, to my mind. And Diggle has reinforced that for him. Felicity never demurred when called on her feelings as well. Oliver wouldn't be dreaming of running away with Felicity if he had wasn't sure of her feelings. So saying that FS didn't fight for him sooner doesn't make much of a difference to me, because Oliver has always known that Felicity has feelings for him. 

[EmeraldArcher]

PART 2 (Felicity):

Now to Felicity. . . I think she shares in the responsibility for the angst we all suffered through, and I agree that her culpability stemmed from not asserting her desire to be with Oliver clearly enough. She could have learned a thing or two about that from the Lance sisters. But to be fair to Felicity, up until she walked away after their hospital kiss, she was trying to reassure him about their blown-up date and clearly communicated that she didn't want to have a conversation that was going to end their burgeoning relationship. Also, Felicity did a good job telling Oliver what she did want and deserve throughout the season, and she shut him down when he crossed the lines that he had drawn. I see her trying very hard to protect her heart from a man she deeply loved who loved her as deeply but refused to be with her.

I think Felicity was ready to convince Oliver to stop resisting when he came back from the dead before she knew about his stupid reliance on Malcolm. Oliver told her he loved her before he left, and I think she was going to act on that. Furthermore, she revealed her heart to him in the alley when she told him about fantasizing about his return and hoping he'd do things differently. Then she shut him down with the "woman you love" line, and I loved her even more.

I find it interesting that S3 Felicity echoed S1 Diggle's words about Oliver needing to be the one to say the words of reconciliation. Like the repeated line about bottle openers by the Lance sisters that speaks to their complicated, and ultimately failed romantic relationships with Oliver, I think that Felicity's echoing Diggle's line speaks to their bond and partnerships with Oliver that unite them as a team and a family. As a love interest, Felicity isn't interchangeable with any other woman, which gives her more of a chance for a lasting relationship with Oliver in these writers' world.

ETA: Unlike the Lance sisters' sex lunges toward Oliver, Felicity's lovemaking with Oliver is anchored by her admission of love and then a reverent coming together as she and Oliver stare directly at each other. I really love that acting choice by SA because Oliver rarely maintains eye contact with anybody, choosing instead to stare at some point over their head and only occasionally making direct eye contact.

Edited June 7, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[Ceylon5]

For me, the only thing about Oliver and Felicity's horrible relationship this season that I didn't hate was the fact that she never chased after him, only to get shut down.  That would have been ten times worse than what we got, and I think the writers very deliberately avoided that.  I loved her shutting him down in that alleyway, when he was implying that her completely genuine rage and dismay about Malcolm was actually about their (non-)relationship.  Since I wanted to slap him silly for incorrectly mansplaining her feelings to her and trying to make it all about her feelings for him, I thought her "I don't want to be a woman you love" was pretty restrained, all things considered.  The scene also made it clear that Oliver knew how Felicity felt about him and that she wanted to be with him.

 

Oliver told Felicity repeatedly (ad nauseam, in fact!) throughout the season that he wasn't going to pursue a relationship with her, and I don't think there is any way she could have tried to get him to change his mind without looking sad and desperate.  So, thanks for pointing out some stuff that would have made the season even worse than it was, because now I'm feeling almost positive about Felicity's side of all this.

 

I also thought the moment she did choose to tell him how she felt really worked.  Because it was very much a "goodbye, there's nothing left to lose now" moment, both Felicity and Oliver were able to let their guards down and really express to each other everything they'd been keeping bottled up.  And once that happened, there wasn't really any going back once it turned out that it wasn't goodbye after all.  But I really don't think her telling him she loved him earlier in the season would have achieved the same result.  These things are all about timing, and she got the timing right.  Well, as right as was possible in the messy circumstances, anyway.

[kismet]

Timing is everything... And we were heading down the same path regardless of anyone's admissions. I guess I just would have liked Felicity to say something earlier at least to Diggle. She still could have done everything the same if she wanted to. But felt like we were missing a piece from her for most of the season. The audience just had to assume that we were right & that she had feelings. But I'm sure there were some fans who did not believe she had legit feelings or fans for who the relationship took them by surprise. Quick convo with Diggle could have cleared it up but still kept it messy for oq/fs.

[WaitandHope]

About reusing lines... I think the phrase "line forms behind me" has been said by no less than 4 characters on the show at different times. And I don't think it's intentional. Sooo, I'm not sure they have been intentionally giving Sara and Laurel the same lines. Whether that makes their oversights better or worse, I can't decide.

About Felicity's feelings for Oliver. I have fanwanked that she has woken up every day for 3 years basically telling herself not to fall for Oliver Queen today. First because he was a womanizer, then because he was a killer, then because he was hung up on Laurel, then because he was gone, then because he was her boss and Isobel, then because he was with Sara, etc. Also there's the emotionally stunted and severely depressed with PTSD and suicidal tendencies... Then he tells her "I love you" and she starts losing her daily daily battle and starts to really fall. Then he breaks her heart but she goes back to her daily battle but it's more painful and real than before.

This story is not Felicity's story, and I certainly think she's about more than her feelings for Oliver. But I also think from her first meeting with him, she's been battling not falling for him-- subtly and subconsciously and sometimes consciously--as she's been pulled further and further into his world. When she finally says "I love you," I never doubted it. It was just when Oliver was finally ready to hear it and she could say it without humiliation and rejection.

[wingster55]

Next season...I'd like to see Felicity really support Diggle in an ep. Maybe he learns something about Andy and needs all the support. We've seen Oliver do it already..I'd like to see others...Felicity and Thea mainly. 

[Chasity]

Felicity supporting Diggle next season would be great. Their relationship was sorely lacking this season.

[Chaser]

The distance between Diggle and Felicity hurt me more then the distance between Oliver and Felicity. I was expecting the Olicity angst. I wasn't expecting Diggle and Felicity to be separated too. Still bitter they didn't get a good-bye in the season finale. 

 

DR talks about HIVE, Andy and Felicity's father being connected so I'm hopeful that we see a lot of mutual support. What I don't want is a reverse of this season, with Oliver getting Felicity in the Oliver/Diggle awkwardness. I need that Oliver/Diggle conflict to remain separate from the Diggle/Felicity relationship. 

[AyChihuahua]

I think the writers just like writing a certain way, and apart from Oliver, Diggle and Felicity (and maybe Roy and Walter), the rest of them don't really have unique voices / ways of talking. 

 

About the FS not fighting for Oliver argument, I think it would hold more water if there was any doubt in anyone's mind over Felicity's feelings, and I don't think there was. The interesting thing is that Oliver has always known that Felicity likes him. He's never doubted that, to my mind. And Diggle has reinforced that for him. Felicity never demurred when called on her feelings as well. Oliver wouldn't be dreaming of running away with Felicity if he had wasn't sure of her feelings. So saying that FS didn't fight for him sooner doesn't make much of a difference to me, because Oliver has always known that Felicity has feelings for him. 

Personally I totally doubted that Felicity loved Oliver.  Thought he was hot in S1, liked him in S2, wanted to date him in the beginning of S3, sure.  Loved him, eh.  I would say Oliver doubted it, too, based on his surprised reaction to her in 19/20.

[Sunshine]

Timing is everything... And we were heading down the same path regardless of anyone's admissions. I guess I just would have liked Felicity to say something earlier at least to Diggle. She still could have done everything the same if she wanted to. But felt like we were missing a piece from her for most of the season. The audience just had to assume that we were right & that she had feelings. But I'm sure there were some fans who did not believe she had legit feelings or fans for who the relationship took them by surprise. Quick convo with Diggle could have cleared it up but still kept it messy for oq/fs.

In their eagerness for world-building, they gave this moment to Felicity with Barry on the Flash which was totally unfair to Arrow- only viewers.

[lemotomato]

Personally I totally doubted that Felicity loved Oliver.  Thought he was hot in S1, liked him in S2, wanted to date him in the beginning of S3, sure.  Loved him, eh.  I would say Oliver doubted it, too, based on his surprised reaction to her in 19/20.

I've never doubted that Felicity loved Oliver, since the beginning of season 2 if not earlier. She was willing to get injected with Vertigo in 2x07 just so he wouldn't break his "no kill" vow, so she definitely felt more than "like" for him by then.

 

I did doubt if she was in love with Oliver. I never got the impression she pined for him in season 2 or that she was just waiting for him to say the word/change his mind about their relationship in season 3. The first time I thought she really expressed how she felt was the "quiet dreams" speech to Barry (which EBR totally nailed, with the wistfulness and longing). Otherwise, she seemed like she shut down any romantic feelings/hopes for him and was more or less business as usual from 3x03 to 3x15. 

[AyChihuahua]

I meant in love.  Agree that she loved him, in some sense, for sure in S2 if not S1.  But I didn't get any "in love" feelings from her in S3, until it was, for me, too late.  

[foreverevolving]

I guess this fits here?

 

Time to Talk

http://m-artrevenge.tumblr.com/post/119626391973/time-to-talk

 

A female (I believe) comic book reader, a fan of Dinah - Black Canary gives a through analysis on why she likes Oliver and Dinah in the comics and in the same breath why she ships Olicity and how much different Arrow's Laurel and Oliver are from their comics counterparts with which they really only share a name with.

[kismet]

I really thought the show would go cliche & tropey by having OQ love confession in s2 be an "I love you" but I'm not "in love with you". Didn't think they would play it out from his perspective the way they did. I totally believe that they love each other since s1, but there are all types of loves. Them being in love and the show willing to commit to them being in love (or at least OQ) was something that did surprise me this season. Thought that they would manipulate the use of love as a word more.  But they absolutely tortured us with angst and pretzeling of characters, so maybe i should be content they didn't think to use more word manipulation.

[tv echo]

I think this entire S3 angsty romance plot, with Oliver pushing his love away and becoming isolated enough to want to commit suicide in order to bring down Ra's, was always planned as part of Oliver's hero journey -- but originally with Laurel as the love interest.  I'm glad they switched because the gradual evolution of Oliver and Felicity's relationship from acquaintances to allies to friends to partners to lovers felt organic and worked for me due to the actors' natural chemistry.

 

The lack of scenes between Diggle and Felicity in S3 could also be due in part to the fact that Diggle now has a wife and daughter to support and to support him.  Oliver and Felicity had no one really to discuss problems with, since so much of what they do is secret, but Diggle now has another 'family' that he can derive comfort from and that compels his loyalty.

Edited June 8, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

Yeah Diggle being sidelined on the field and Felicity being on Ray's Island is what cost Diggle in s3. Two things that should never have happened. Diggle should have at least been on the field helping the costumed heroes. It should have been one or the other Newbie out there instead of both. It would have been nice seeing Diggle in charge as field leader. But he would have made BC look like a worse fighter. Teaming Roy and Laurel was about making her fighting believable. A secondary team of BC and Arsenal would be believable but them as team A-no way. But comic BC is no side kick so making her believable is a necessary evil in the forced attempt to keep Laurel headed toward her comic destiny.

It also made no sense isolating Ray so Fecility hiding on Palmer's island was bull crap. It really cost Diggle and Felicity bonding time. This season Felicity was all about telling everybody's secret past time but her keeping Ray's from her team? Annoying. I don't know the idea solution to fix it because I also don't want Felicity telling everybody's secrets. But everything would have benefited from Ray mixed with the rest of the Cast.

And Diggle might have wanted to meet Ray to see how he was treating Felicity. I mean he's protective of his people. Felicity's the same way usually. It's one of their common traits. Oliver too. It's the core of original team Arrow.

Edited June 8, 2015 by tarotx

[tv echo]

About reusing lines (commented on above by two others)... this happens a lot on these shows.  Remember how Iris' "cop's daughter, remember" line on The Flash was reminiscent of Laurel's "cop's daughter, remember" line in S1 of Arrow?  And recently I saw the Supergirl trailer where Kara is on the roof and asks her friend "can I trust you?" -- remember when that line was used on Arrow?

Edited June 8, 2015 by tv echo

[quarks]

Hilariously enough, in a season of Lazarus Pits, surviving a gut wound and falling off a cliff, flying robot suits, a top security island jail that apparently only has one guard and no bathrooms, motorcycle dueling, leaping on helicopters, and insta-transportation between Nanda Parbat, NJ and Starling City, some state somewhere, my greatest WTF moment remains the bit in "Canaries" where Oliver chooses to head out with Laurel - who had already been injured in that episode - instead of the Special Forces guy standing right there.  

 

And why Diggle allowed them to go - well, my fanwank is that Diggle was hoping this would lead to something happening with Laurel that would get her off the team. Diggle wasn't happy with Laurel's influence over/effect on Oliver in previous seasons, after all. But I admit that's just in my head and wasn't in the actual show.

[kismet]

The lack of FS & Dig's relationship was really one of the worst parts of s3. It happens in divorces where friends eventually wind up being claimed by one side, but it seemed a little out of place & unnecessary for Dig & FS to be separated for most of the season. The fact that Dig had no officially met Ray until the wedding seemed like an odd choice fo the writers. I realize that FS was probably wanting to keep Ray away from TA. But after year of being EA & Driver for OQ, it would have been natural that they had developed a friendship that would not appear weird to the general public or a new friend/bf. I didn't need tons of scenes of Dig/FS bonding, but some referencing that they had talked to each other outside of the ArrowCave would have been nice. Even referencing receiving a text message or somrthing along those lines. I really wish they had shown Dig or implied Dig being happy for FS moving on. I will say it again, but I think they should have had Dig training RP in basic fight/defense moves. It would have made RP's arc to be a real hero stronger, since you need some skills regardless of the suit. And it would have shown Dig being supportive of FS's new choices. It also would not have seemed weird that RP would want to know some more basic self-defense considering what happened to him & his fiance.

 

I am concerned though that increased Dig & FS together time will result in more angst in s4 & less of the family dynamic we saw in s1&2 (parts of 3). The fact that DR knows a lot about FSs father & I believe said in the Paris Con that he was linked to Andy makes me very nervous for what the writers will do.

 

Taking the rest to the Hopes/Specs thread.

[Chaser]

Dig camped himself outside of Felicity's apartment to make sure she was okay during the Slade thing. Dig was comfortable pulling the big brother act at on Ray at the wedding. Felicity is comfortable around Sara and Lyla and Dig didn't hesitate to invite her to stay at their place doing LOA-Oliver. Felicity is family to Dig. It wouldn't have been out of place for him to invite Ray and Felicity over for dinner one night to check out Ray (given their line of work its actually pretty smart). I would have traded the Diggle/Felicity scene at QC for a dinner scene like that. Bonus points if they never bring up Oliver.

 

Seriously, that scene at QC is the only time I have ever wanted to smack Diggle.

[Genki]

Ray Palmer was one of the reasons Dig/Felicity scenes were so sparse IMO. Every time Felicity was feeling emotional they would have her scurry off to Palmer Industries  so Ray could swoop down. While I don't mind that Diggle was looking out for Oliver this season, I would have loved some Dig/Felicity goodness not related to the mission. There were so many times where character X was in a scene that would have made more sense if they were together.

[kismet]

Hate to lob another negative at Ray. But he definitely was one of the reasons that Diggle & Felicity scenes were sparse. Apparently there was no boats or planes to let Dig even visit Palmer Island. It was worse than Lian Yu, at least that island was inhabited & visited albeit from psychos & murderers but still... But not Palmer Island that was a little oasis made for only 2.

 

It would have been nice to see Dig supporting FS moving forward with her life. Although he might have had another choice in mind, as her friend I think he should have made an attempt to meet the guy at least once before the wedding. I also think it would have been an organic way to introduce Ray into the fold, especially if they wanted to spin-off his character. Dig is really the only friend FS had on the show besides OQ, so why wouldn't she at least want to talk to him about RP at least once in a non-Oliver & non-mission way? It would not have been that difficult for the writers to have RP, Dig & FS share a cup of coffee or even grab a drink at Verdant. It was a missed opportunity.

 

As for his being sidelined for the BC arc, I can only fanwank that as perhaps he wanted to be in the command center to have access to a more overall view of the situation. His training & tactical planning are great in the field, but they need someone on comms to help also organize the bigger picture. Dig couldn't do that in the field because he would be to busy baby-sitting LL to manage the overall tactical choices & protect the team. At least by being in the command center he could perhaps see stuff ahead of time & prevent it as opposed to walking into a bigger problem without the back-up to help get him & the team out of the situation. Still don't think it was great writing choice, but what is done is done. Fingers-crossed for less sidelining in s4.

[BkWurm1]

Timing is everything... And we were heading down the same path regardless of anyone's admissions. I guess I just would have liked Felicity to say something earlier at least to Diggle. She still could have done everything the same if she wanted to. But felt like we were missing a piece from her for most of the season. The audience just had to assume that we were right & that she had feelings. But I'm sure there were some fans who did not believe she had legit feelings or fans for who the relationship took them by surprise. Quick convo with Diggle could have cleared it up but still kept it messy for oq/fs.

In their eagerness for world-building, they gave this moment to Felicity with Barry on the Flash which was totally unfair to Arrow- only viewers.

I was thinking just this.

Kismet - I was wondering if you saw that scene on The Flash. It would have been during her first crossover (in the Flash episode 4) I never doubted that Felicity loved Oliver but until this scene I wasn't sure if she'd allowed herself to be in love with him. Just from her face on the date I assumed she would have been by the end of their first breadstick but when the date blew up on them she worked so hard on not thinking about it and pressing forward hoping she could stay ahead of the pain, I wondered if she had managed to stuff her feelings down before she crossed that final line.

With her fear of losing those important to her, it's natural to understand why she would have tried to make her feelings fit with what circumstances would allow her to keep the very important connection.

After the scene with her on the train, I still thought she was trying to stuff her feelings down and live with what she had, but that one line about quiet dreams convinced me she had been in love with him for a while and still was. I'd say his not fake fake out opened the door to a new tentative belief/hope. Before that I think she may still have had thoughts and if onlys, but didn't believe Oliver could possibly feel that way so she was able to not fall that final step. But afterward and especially when he refused to confirm loving her was a lie, that tiny sliver of self preservation vanished and by date night she was IMO in love. Still in the earliest stages of being in love, but in love and I see that being why she shut him down so hard. It hurt that much more than if she'd been able to protect her heart.

I'm not going to play the what could have happened if Sara hadn't died game but with Sara's death, Felicity suddenly was in desperate need of something else in her life than had nothing to do with Oliver. It was head down and looking for distractions. I think her trip to Central City to see Barry was a level of her grief over the loss of those dreams - she'd reached denial and was off to see Barry IMO to see if she could strike up that spark. But both she and Barry admitted that they couldn't get past their feelings for other people.

I absolutely think that non Flash viewers missed out on the best insight to her feelings until she hears Oliver repeats to Cupid about not being ever able to be with someone. After her visit to Barry and coming to terms that her feelings weren't going away, she'd let herself hope a little again, that maybe all Oliver needed was some time to get past the explosion and move past the fears grief over Sara's murder created. In the episode when she mentions the work date, yeah, I do think she hoped he'd have something to say. I don't think she agreed to it to make him jealous, but I do think she wanted him to care, but instead she got to hear right from Oliver's mouth that no, nothing had changed. The pain we saw on her face reaffirmed my opinion that she was in love with Oliver but kissing Ray was about accepting Oliver was not changing his mind and probably her wishing she wasn't in love with him and trying to force her feelings to change.

With the crossovers and the way they were written it's near impossible to map the emotions of the characters during either Arrow vs Flash or The Brave and the Bold. But in The Climb, I think it was Oliver's love that Felicity was doubting until the end which is why I loved (among other reasons) Oliver's straight forward simple "I love you". At that point I knew from Felicity's Flash episode and her reaction to Oliver's Cupid conversation that she was in love with him. Then he leaves, dies and all through his absence I never doubted we were watching a woman morn the death of the man she was in love with. Of course when he came back and not only was he doubling down on the same crap after he'd just DIED but he was also betraying his own core beliefs by hitching his wagon to the devil, well all the grief fused into a massive anger.

And I bet it felt fantastic to be pissed. Clean, strong, liberating. Before that she'd been pretty much enduring death by a thousand cuts, one sharp slash to her heart on top of another leaving her nearly dull with constant grief. Then in a flash all that pain converts to rage AND she has a target living and breathing in front of her (at least until the idiot again tried to get himself killed) Finally she had the chance to think and act without the weight of her feelings for Oliver in the way. I don't doubt that even when she began dating Ray she was still in love with Oliver but at that point her anger converted back to the denial stage of grief.

She'd already figured out that she couldn't stop what she felt for Oliver by going out and just replacing him. She tried that with Barry and it was a non starter before they could start anything. But her anger ( with Oliver's extreme death wish being the final push) gave her the distance from her feelings that she needed in order to be with someone and it let her think that maybe this time it would work and then I think we saw her throw herself into making it work. On some levels it did.

She genuinely liked Ray and barring that terrible section in Suicidal Tendencies, he treated her wonderfully while they were dating. He was promising her what she wanted and she did care for him and Oliver had still made his position clear (despite her almost flat out saying crook your finger and I will be yours). How very frustrating for Felicity to discover she was no where close to being out of love with Oliver.

I didn't mean to make this a season long analysis of what Felicity was feeling so I will leave it there and swing back to my original intent which was to ask how much of a difference that scene with Barry on the train affected other's view points on Felicity's feelings. For me it turned out to be very important apparently.

Edited June 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Ceylon5]

Nice analysis, BkWurm1!  It seemed so obvious to me that Felicity had feelings for Oliver that it seems bizarre that it even needs to be documented!  

 

At the same time, though, I'm wondering why some people seem to be somehow implying that Felicity ought to have been in love with Oliver from the beginning of the season, if not earlier.  Frankly even if she still weren't in love with him now, I don't think that's any indictment on her character.  It's not her job description to be in love with Oliver.  She didn't need to be in love with him to go out with him in the première and she wasn't obliged to nurse overwhelming feelings for him thereafter that required her to force a relationship between them.  Why should she?  And why should she be required to declare her undying love for some guy who doesn't want to be in a relationship with her, whether to him directly, or to anyone else, including her Secret Diary and the audience?  Oliver put her in the really awkward position of saying he loves her but won't date her.  They have never dated (the 5 minute almost date doesn't count) and she was never given the realistic option of considering an actual future for the two of them, other than maybe for the half a day between him asking her out and their date blowing up.  Just because Oliver was comfortable repeatedly saying he loves her even though they've never been a couple, that doesn't oblige her to as well.  And she doesn't have to have the same feelings he has at the same time as he has them.

 

The fact that she did have feelings (as so well explained by BkWurm1) is neither here nor there.  Felicity owed Oliver absolutely nothing and it really bothers me that she's being criticized for not chasing after him while he was pushing her away, especially given that it was clear it was only going to end in more rejection for her.  This is not a couple with an established romantic relationship of long-standing.  They had never been a couple at all.  Oliver had all the power (even if it didn't necessarily feel that way to him) while she was really vulnerable and desperate not to lose one of the few friends she has.  Regardless of what her feelings were at any given time, and regardless of her own awareness or denial of what she was feeling, there was no point during this season where Felicity was at fault for the status of her romantic relationship with Oliver.  She was given no say in it and had no chance to figure out what she wanted or how she really felt before he shut it down definitively (and then repeatedly, just to be sure that his constant "I love you"s weren't giving her the wrong idea).  That was all on him.  He was the one who did things in the wrong order (saying "I love you" first and then asking her out) and then spent most of the year essentially playing with her emotions.  If she was just being a regular person, and wanting to date first and try things out and allow her feelings to only fully unfurl and blossom within the safety of a relationship that was working, then why are people finding this in any way odd?  Lots of people date first and fall in love later when the relationship progresses.  It's normal.  

 

Being afraid to lose your best friend over a failed romance is also normal, which is why I assume that Felicity never made any attempts to date Oliver in previous seasons, despite her evident interest in him.  After all, she already had one "I can't be with someone I care about" under her belt from early S2.  Back then she wasn't criticized for not chasing after him, so why is she being held to a different standard this season?  Felicity had plenty of reasons to protect herself and what she already has, and even less incentive to push for a romantic relationship with Oliver after he'd explicitly shut it down than she'd ever had before.

 

Personally I would have much rather watched a totally normal relationship develop between them (some of which we'll never get now, and the rest we'll be missing over the hiatus) - normal dating, slowly growing closer and falling more and more in love over time, with a happy first kiss, happy first "I love you"s, happy first sex, etc. along the way.  What we got instead was memorably unsatisfying and annoying.  How could they think all that depressing crap and the constant good-byes was the way to go?

 

Anyway, sorry, I didn't realise I had that rant waiting to go.

[tv echo]

In the Behind the Mask thread, I had commented on whether I would think differently about Felicity's new romance in S3 if her love interest had been someone like Eddie played by Rick Cosnett.  Much as I love Oliver & Felicity together, I think I would've been more conflicted if I saw her with someone who felt 'right' with her.  I know the EPs have said that Ray and Felicity are similar in personality, but I never thought that they looked 'right' together. 

 

At first I thought it was because Ray seemed too old for Felicity, but BR (35) is only one year older than SA (34).  EBR is 23, although Felicity is supposed to be 25 or 26.  But now I think it's because Ray always seemed too glossy and polished, and somewhat insincere.  Felicity is so down-to-earth and real.  Oliver, despite his billionaire playboy background, is also pretty down-to-earth.  If her new romance had been with an actor who also exuded an honest, down-to-earth persona, I think I would've understood Felicity's attraction to him better.

Edited June 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Genki]

@Ceylon5 for me I see both Oliver and Felicity were protecting themselves and, to and extent, each other. A lot of women that Oliver loves died and a lot of important men in Felicity's life leaves her. I think it's a little unfair to place all the blame on Oliver and I think the is some responsibility on Felicity's side as well, which is where I think the observations that Felicity plays her cards close to her chest is valid.

 

Oliver never had a decent relationship before the island and her is still scarred from it, Oliver took a tentative step forward in Episode 1 and suddenly he is reminded that if he let himself have nice things, bad stuff happens.

 

By 3.02 Felicity realised that she can't build her life around Oliver if he was not building a life for himself. 

 

The take-away I have for the season is that Felicity can live without Oliver but doesn't really want to. Oliver can survive without Felicity but doesn't really live. (There may be some Grey's quoting going on here)

[AyChihuahua]

Nice analysis, BkWurm1!  It seemed so obvious to me that Felicity had feelings for Oliver that it seems bizarre that it even needs to be documented!  

Having feelings is not the same as being in love.  I would think most thoughtful viewers would agree that Felicity has had "feelings" for Oliver, whatever that entails, for quite some time.  So what?  And the reason it matters, and the reason that a lot of people wanted to hear something FROM FELICITY (using her words, not just her face, since facial expressions are ambiguous at best), is that we are supposed to root for this couple.  If one party states clearly and unambiguously that he is in love, while the other party just makes sad faces, dates another [awful] guy, tells the first party she doesn't want him to love her, etc., it's pretty tough to root for them.  All season long other people told the audience and Felicity what she felt for Oliver, but she didn't actually say it until the 20th episode of the season.  Then the next episode she wrote him off as gone/metaphorically dead.  That is not a couple I can root for.  

[Ceylon5]

Well, let's put all the blame squarely where it belongs: at the feet of the writers, who did an astonishingly bad job all round this season!  This plotline, sadly, isn't even worth our time to disagree about!

[BkWurm1]

we are supposed to root for this couple.  If one party states clearly and unambiguously that he is in love, while the other party just makes sad faces, dates another [awful] guy, tells the first party she doesn't want him to love her, etc., it's pretty tough to root for them.

 

I think it's the timeline of your supposition that I veer off from.  I've already been rooting for them since episode 1.3 and while the show didn't go out of it's way to entice new supporters of the pairing since season three only spent about 15 minutes on them as a couple before blowing them up (followed by a half hour of staling before they officially "broke up" from not dating) and then keeping them apart AND cutting out most of their typical interactions, nothing either character did caused me to find them individually distasteful in the long term or said to me that their potential as a couple had gone away.  

 

I still rooted for them because Oliver and Felicity were clearly not happy this season (even more so than when Slade was breathing down their necks,) and the biggest change in their lives was not having the closeness and ease of their previous relationship together. I rooted for them because I wanted to see them happy.  I wanted to see Oliver stop adding to his own pain. I wanted Felicity not to be shut out, left behind and abandoned anymore. 

 

At the same time, when Oliver came back with his eyes set on using Malcolm to do something Malcolm couldn't actually deliver, I thought Oliver deserved her anger, I wanted Felicity to not back down and ignore her principles just because she loved him.  I didn't want her to compromise who she was. 

 

Watching those episodes where she's furious and she is pushed out of the inner circle and barely has a leash on her temper because Oliver is being so stupid and self destructive (and they for some reason - plot - are not allowed to have a real conversation), those were not fun times to watch, but they felt real in regards to where Felicity's emotions were coming from.  It only made me respect her more and want her to in the end get what she really wanted which was more than just perfect on paper.  

 

Oliver's boneheaded choices on his return also while dumb were understandable to us in the audience since we got to see how Ra's got in his head (whereas Felicity did not)  So rather than dismissing him and thinking Felicity was better off without him, I still wanted him to eventually get out of his own way so he could be happy. 

 

So again while I can see how the season failed to separately establish and show why Olicity would be a great idea, it IMO never did anything to undo what it had shown in the prior seasons.  I still think the season did a disservice to itself by moving to the angst too quickly but that doesn't equal IMO making me not want to root for them.  

[kismet]

I was thinking just this.

Kismet - I was wondering if you saw that scene on The Flash. It would have been during her first crossover (in the Flash episode 4) I never doubted that Felicity loved Oliver but until this scene I wasn't sure if she'd allowed herself to be in love with him. Just from her face on the date I assumed she would have been by the end of their first breadstick but when the date blew up on them she worked so hard on not thinking about it and pressing forward hoping she could stay ahead of the pain, I wondered if she had managed to stuff her feelings down before she crossed that final line.

I did see that Flash scene, it just wasn't enough for me. And it wasn't to the right person. Barry not being on the show had no way to intervene or convince her that OQ might need more convincing. Diggle could have made her see that OQ was more than your average guy and needed a more blunt confession from her to spur him to re-evaluate the situation. Honestly, I don't think that Barry realized just how emotionally not healthy OQ was until they had their little moments in 308, perhaps if he had known this on the train he might have advised FS differently. its a completely different scenario from him & Iris. Sidebar- I wish we could keep Barry I think he is good influence on OQ & vice versa.

 

It was beautiful analysis BkWurm1 and totally get where your points are coming from. A lot of my post-mortem on s3 is trying to understand what others may have  seen. I wanted Felicity to have feelings for OQ & be in love with him, so I can piece together stuff and see evidence of her feelings. But I also wanted her to admit them out loud to the audience sooner and in a more direct fashion. There are breadcrumbs everywhere if you look. The Left Behind episode was perhaps the best FS episode that showed the depths of her feelings because it showed the depth of her grief. I also completely understand the need to protect her heart. So FS behavior was perfectly normal & within character the way she handled her emotions regarding OQ.

 

I'm just saying from OQ's perspective he does not believe his is worthy of love, esp by someone he has deemed so important & special. He loves FS, but he does not believe he is worthy of her love. So he is gonna need her to tell him that she loves him, because he is not going to be looking for signs. Her burying emotions or not being as verbal with him or Dig (who might be able to talk some sense into him) sets up dog trying to catch his tail scenario - where they will both be chasing their emotions with no resolution. That's why I did enjoy the I don't want to be a woman you love scene, because I think it gave them the needed break to actually step away from their emotions & regroup. That's why I wish she had said something sooner or started dating RP sooner. Because it felt like most 3a was everyone floating around in the river of denial just waiting for someone to make a move or a fish to bite. But nothing was going to be resolved unless they changed their tactics. Which is why when she finally said it in 320, he actually accepted it and did something about it. If she had never admitted those actual 3 words to him, he probably would have just sat in his room in NP waiting to join LoA. Perfectly content to love FS from afar until his dying day.

 

I know OQ is very stubborn and blockheaded, she might have told him straight to his face that she loved him and still he might have done nothing about it until 320. But I honestly don't believe that OQ believed that FS could ever love him. So he was not expecting her to have any big response to his refusals. Its sad, but I feel like he is that emotionally compromised that he is willing to believe that he is unworthy of love. It took him most of s1&2 for him to finally accept his mother's & sister's love. Most of his actions and choices are driven by love (even if some are knucklehead moves or are too overprotective), but even with his deep capacity to love others, he himself feels unworthy to accept their love. I think him dying made him see that others love him (& that might be ok, even if he didn't know what to  do with it yet), he accepted Dig's brotherhood, finally revealed himself to his sister. But it was a slow process of acceptance, only to have Ras come in and ruin his progress with all of his dumb prophecies & courtship rituals.

 

FS withholding (albeit for good reasons) the depth of her feelings was not helping him come to any revelations any time soon. Another way that illustrates that OQ had no idea the depth of her emotions was the surprised/aww/shock face he had during the alley scene, when she almost let it slip in 319 & then again when she actually said it in 320. Both of them are great at compartmentalizing their emotions, so it was gonna be a long journey for them to actually reach a mutual understanding & appreciation of the fact that they both are in love with each other. Moving forward I think they will be alright, but they do have to be careful to keep the lines of communication open because sometimes I think they think they are being clear with each other, when really they are missing the mark. 

 

ETA - I am not trying to attack FS. Ceylon5 you are right, she did owe OQ nothing. Her actions/choices were with good intent & merit. If she had said something sooner, we might have been allowed off the merry-go-round of angst sooner & the characters might have been able to be happier sooner. But the writers were not going to allow that to happen. Luckily their quarters finally ran out.

Edited June 9, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

Totally agree that he didn't think she was in love with him, probably didn't think that was even within the realm of possibilities, until she actually said it.  IRL, if she'd said it much earlier I think there's a good chance they would have gotten together earlier.  Unfortunately, this is a very predictable tv show, so it could only happen at the end of the season.  So predictable.

 

I really, really wish she'd broken up with Ray, and earlier (or even more ideal, never dated him, just worked with him).  In my ideal world she would have dropped his ass hard after he electrocuted Roy.  Douche. 

 

Kismet, you are one of the most polite posters on this board.  You always try to see things from others' perspectives and you're never snarky.  I just wanted to say that.

[BkWurm1]

I'm just saying from OQ's perspective he does not believe his is worthy of love, esp by someone he has deemed so important & special. He loves FS, but he does not believe he is worthy of her love. So he is gonna need her to tell him that she loves him, because he is not going to be looking for signs

 

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is I don't think Felicity's feelings for him impacted his notion that he couldn't be with her one way or the other.  In fact if anything a declaration of love would only have made him even more certain that he couldn't be with her.  Happiness and a future?  Nope too distracting.

 

From 3.1 until Ra's gave his offer, I don't think Oliver was anywhere near to considering actually going for it with Felicity. Actually, I'll say that maybe as he was preparing to face his death, he thought perhaps when he beat Ra's he could have a life with her but he didn't beat Ra's and I think he was totally certain that all he felt he could do was dream about that life at that point and that there wasn't a thing Felicity could have done to sway his mind.  It was IMO only after he got failing to beat Ra's out of his head that he was in a place where he would even start to question his stance and yet in Suicidal tendencies he still repeated his stance on why they couldn't be together. 

 

FS withholding (albeit for good reasons) the depth of her feelings was not helping him come to any revelations any time soon. Another way that illustrates that OQ had no idea the depth of her emotions was the surprised/aww/shock face he had during the alley scene, when she almost let it slip in 319 & then again when she actually said it in 320.

 

See I saw that as him thinking she had moved on and so to hear she still loved him, that was the reason for his shock, not that her feelings for him one way or the other would impact his current opinion on if he could be with her or not.  I agree that Oliver does suffer from believing he is worthy of love but I don't think that had any connection to his belief he couldn't be with Felicity and be the Arrow. 

 

Before I start jabbering on some more, I'd love to hear some viewpoints on what motivated Oliver's stance.

Edited June 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Thank you AyChihuahua! I try to be polite. I love hearing everyone's opinion & perspective!! That's what makes this forum fun. It would be kinda boring if we all agreed or thought the same things. Plus I learn insight into the characters/story that I may not have seen or thought of. I do appreciate others politeness as well. :) Some of the other boards can be so mean & snarky. That's just not as entertaining in my perspective.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Before I start jabbering on some more, I'd love to hear some viewpoints on what motivated Oliver's stance.

I don't really know what motivated his identity BS, but I just hate it.  "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen"...What does that MEAN?  That is waaaaay too much existential philosophical BS for me.  I mean, I think he said he had to dump her because she distracted him?  That's pretty cold, man.  But fanfic mainly seems to think it was to keep her safe?  I don't think he said that, plus it's SO DUMB (no offense intended at all to fanfic, which I love more than the show nowadays), when he's totally fine with her working with him.  His identity BS is even worse that he only dropped her plus QC and got closer to Digg, Roy, and especially Thea.  It's just ALL SO DUMB.

[BkWurm1]

But fanfic mainly seems to think it was to keep her safe?  I don't think he said that, plus it's SO DUMB (no offense intended at all to fanfic, which I love more than the show nowadays), when he's totally fine with her working with him.

 

I agree that keeping her safe was NOT his motivation.  I've been lucky to avoid reading the fanfics that claim otherwise cause that misinterpretation is one of my pet peeves this season. 

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like he should have just bought an absurd sports car and banged a couple supermodels and chilled the F out.

 

Damnit, I'm getting S3 rage again!

[apinknightmare]

I agree that keeping her safe was NOT his motivation.  I've been lucky to avoid reading the fanfics that claim otherwise cause that misinterpretation is one of my pet peeves this season. 

 

Those people aren't totally off base though. Oliver was tentative about starting something with Felicity at the restaurant when he said "maybe" he was wrong about being able to be with someone he could really care about. When he bought her back to the lair, he told Diggle that the only explanation for him being so distracted that he didn't notice a GPS tracker had been planted on him was because he was focused on Felicity and their date. 

 

So I don't think he was directly thinking, "I'm going to break this off with you to keep you, Felicity, safe," but more along the lines of, "When Oliver Queen wants happiness, he gets distracted enough that people (including Felicity) get hurt. So Oliver Queen can't want or have happiness and be Arrow at the same time." So, it was a decision indirectly based on keeping her safe, because I'm sure seeing her go all 'splodey panicked him a little. I suppose it's a calculated risk he's willing to take to have him work with her, since he can't Arrow without her. But he knew from experience that he could live with out her romantically, and wasn't willing to chance her safety. Or something.