Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

I'd rather have had Felicity push Moira do the right thing than have Moira be shady and make terrible decisions. I don't think Felicity was over the line. She owed Moira nothing unlike what she owes Oliver, which is her honesty. IMO I would've hated it even more if Felicity didn't confront Moira and went straight to Oliver. I'm glad Felicity gave Moira the opportunity to come clean, but Moira didn't take it. I think this was a beautiful episode that showed just how much Felicity values honesty/openness/transparency. 

 

What was unwarranted though, was Oliver and Moira BOTH keeping it from Thea. And that had nothing to do with Felicity. 

[ruby24]

But the secret itself had nothing to do with her and was none of her business. I mean, if Oliver was Malcolm's son, then I guess I could see her not wanting to keep it from him, but Thea's parentage was something Moira had kept secret, and ultimately had everything to do with Thea, not Oliver. Felicity had no right to go blabbing that to whoever she thought should know. It wasn't her place. It wasn't even her family.

[wonderwall]

But the secret itself had nothing to do with her and was none of her business. I mean, if Oliver was Malcolm's son, then I guess I could see her not wanting to keep it from him, but Thea's parentage was something Moira had kept secret, and ultimately had everything to do with Thea, not Oliver. Felicity had no right to go blabbing that to whoever she thought should know. It wasn't her place. It wasn't even her family.

 

So you're okay with Moira not telling anyone the truth? Thea is Oliver's sister. Of course he has a right to know as well. But Felicity doesn't know Thea which is why she felt she couldn't tell her. Felicity didn't 'blab'. She was torn the entire episode whether or not she should tell Oliver. She made a conscious decision to tell Oliver because it was something he AND Thea deserved to know. 

 

I'm trying to put myself in Felicity's place, and I feel like I would do the same. There is nothing wrong with the truth.

 

I guess in the end it depends on how much you value honesty. Because I'd much rather have had Felicity tell Oliver than have her keep that secret from him. It would've made me respect Felicity less.

[ruby24]

It wasn't Felicity's secret to tell though. It was Moira's. It was a family matter. And it would affect Thea much more to know about that than it would Oliver (although he ended up reacting like Moira had murdered someone). Yet it was more important for Oliver to know this information than Thea?

Edited May 31, 2015 by ruby24

[Balaclava]

Also someone reblogged that and added how Sara actually wanted to date Oliver first but then Laurel was with him and knew. Sara isn't a slut and we saw how selfish Laurel is.

 

I wonder why people tend to forget that Sara said that, and other things that we saw in flashbacks.With a little/lot of help from the internet:

 

"....At some point Sara met Oliver Queen and Tommy Merlyn. Sara formed a crush on Oliver and even snuck out of the house to go to a secret party that Tommy held. Laurel however out of envy called the cops and Sara was grounded and by the time she wasn't, Oliver and Laurel were dating...

 

Arrow ep2x11 Blind Spot it's in the island flashbacks 

starts at minute 17:05

 

And then there's this

 

"...In late 2007 when Laurel wanted to take the next step which freaked out Oliver and started sleeping with Sara instead"

 

"....One weekend Sara returned home to her family for a three day weekend from college but was secretly texting Oliver. Later Laurel talked to her and told her about moving in with him and Sara tried to talk to her about Oliver’s reputation for sleeping with everyone but Laurel took this as Sara being a bitch. Sara then agreed to Oliver’s offer and decided to go with him on the Queen’s Gambit voyage with him...." Flashback, can't precise the ep

 

And finally 

"....Before she left her mother came home early and saw her pack her “Starling Rockets” cap in a bag. Dinah tried to convince Sara not to go but after telling her that she was in love and had to do what she felt was right, Dinah let her go..." Flashbacks in ep2x13

 

This is all in flashbacks, but it does imply that Sara not only had a crush on Oliver before Laurel start dating him, but that Oliver was already somewhat cheating Laurel with Sara before they went on the Gambit.

I don't think Sara was a slut, i wasn't a big Sara and although i think sleeping with you sister boyfriend it's not a very nice thing to do, i also don't think that pursuing a guy that you know your sister is in love with, is any better.

Basically the way i see it, both sisters betrayed each other when it comes to Oliver.

[wonderwall]

It wasn't Felicity's secret to tell though. It was Moira's. And it effected Thea much more to know about that than it would Oliver. Yet it was more important for Oliver to know this information than Thea?

 

This is why Felicity went to Moira first before she even thought about going to Oliver. If Felicity went straight to Oliver I would've hated that. But she pushed Moira to tell the truth but in the end Moira was too cowardly to actually own up to her past. This is why Felicity was at war with herself regarding whether or not to tell him the truth. This is why when Oliver pushed Felicity to tell him what was wrong, she told him. Felicity was between a rock and a hard place in that episode but in the end she stuck with her principles, I can't fault her for that.

 

Why would Felicity tell Thea? They never interacted up till that point (well maybe once or twice?) She told Oliver because he deserved to know (maybe not as much as Thea, but he deserved to know as well). It wasn't Felicity's secret to tell but it sure wasn't hers to keep (which is why Felicity was between a rock and a hard place). Oliver not telling Thea was on HIM not Felicity. The situation could've been a LOT better if both Moira and Oliver were truthful from the start. Felicity probably told Oliver expecting him to be honest with Thea, but that didn't happen. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[manbearpig]

I wonder why people tend to forget that Sara said that, and other things that we saw in flashbacks.With a little/lot of help from the internet:

 

Sara being interested in Oliver before Laurel was a retcon, though. Yes, all of those scenes happened in flashbacks before the Gambit sunk, but they also happened after Laurel and Oliver tanked as a couple, and since the show was putting distance between those two characters anyway the writers chose to make Laurel look terrible, and Sara deciding she would meet up with Oliver because her sister was a little frosty with her doesn't excuse her actions. I think Sara pointing out that Oliver was sleeping around was perfectly reasonable, and Laurel certainly should have listened to her sister and dumped his ass. But pointing out that someone is a lying cheater and then deciding to sleep with him would be a baffling decision to me even if you're only out to have fun, adding in the fact that it was with her sister's boyfriend brings it to a whole other level of stupidity for me.

 

At the same time though, at that point Laurel and Sara were probably two of my three favourite characters* on the show so I never even disliked either of them. It's been said a lot around here, but trying to start your main couple's relationship with a cheating storyline that resulted in the 'death' of the leading lady's sister is at best problematic.

 

*The other being Moira.

Edited May 31, 2015 by manbearpig

[dtissagirl]

What I got from that was that Felicity stumbled upon a terrible secret that would affect someone she cared about deeply -- Oliver -- and she felt like keeping that a secret would be a betrayal of her friendship to Oliver. And then she tried to get Moira to fess up because it WAS Moira's secret, but now Felicity knew it, and she couldn't live with herself if she kept it too. I would have done the exactly same thing she did.

[wonderwall]

Sara being interested in Oliver before Laurel was a retcon, though.

 

That wasn't a retcon though. My understanding is that a retcon is "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events".

 

What happened between L/O/S before L/O started dating has never been stated previously in prior episodes. Therefore it wasn't a retcon, it was just new information regarding L/O/S and their dynamic. 

 

Now the intention of that scene is a different argument. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[Balaclava]

Comic reader here. I just read that post, it seems pretty accurate to me. Their feelings on comic book Dinah/Oliver is different from mine, but I understand that take. I'm not a fan of D/O in the comics because I kinda like Dinah about seventeen billion times better than I like Oliver, and I don't like how she's written in the relationship, nor how their relationship only seems to benefit him. But I totally understand getting engaged in a couple because you watched them fall for each other, and then when the complications [cheating] start, you're already invested enough that you end up rooting for better times/reconciliation.

In the show, we've never seen Laurel and Oliver fall for each other, we've never even seen any good times in their relationship. That made it extremely hard for me to root for them. Add to that the fact that I have never ever liked Laurel for a single time ever, and that pairing was dead in the water from the pilot for me.

 

I read her post too, i'm actually "friends" with her on twitter. I think there's one or two things missing in there, like her marriage to Craig Windrow or the problem with Everyman on the honeymoon. Memory is not helping and i'm not sure if she actually married GA in that issue or it was Everyman himself. I'm not that young anymore, and it's late.

There's also BC and Barbara Gordon relationship missing in her post, that some people see more than just friendship and that i actually agree with.

 

ITA agree with the second part of your post, independent on how i feel about the comics, Oliver and Laurel in the show was dead for me from the pilot too

[manbearpig]

 

That wasn't a retcon though. My understanding is that a retcon is "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events".

 

What happened between L/O/S before L/O started dating has never been stated previously in prior episodes. Therefore it wasn't a retcon, it was just new information regarding L/O/S and their dynamic. 

 

Now the intention of that scene is a different argument. 

 

Fair enough. It did feel like an odd choice to me, though, and I don't think Laurel calling the cops would have happened if the show still thought she could be slotted into the love interest role. To me it just seemed like a way to soften Sara's actions at Laurel's expense at a time when the show was mishandling Laurel as a character anyway.

[wonderwall]

Fair enough. It did feel like an odd choice to me, though, and I don't think Laurel calling the cops would have happened if the show still thought she could be slotted into the love interest role. To me it just seemed like a way to soften Sara's actions at Laurel's expense at a time when the show was mishandling Laurel as a character anyway.

 

To be fair, we didn't know what Laurel was like when she was a teenager. People grow, people change, and I don't think Laurel is exempt to that. Laurel easily could've been a jealous girl when she was a teenager. I know I was a spoiled kid (and the worst) when I was a teen, but I grew out of that, and we all know Laurel wouldn't do that now. 

[manbearpig]

To be fair, we didn't know what Laurel was like when she was a teenager. People grow, people change, and I don't think Laurel is exempt to that. Laurel easily could've been a jealous girl when she was a teenager. I know I was a spoiled kid (and the worst) when I was a teen, but I grew out of that, and we all know Laurel wouldn't do that now. 

 

I agree with your point about Laurel and people can absolutely make dumb choices, but it still bugs me. Even on a show like this where calling the cops on a party your sister is at, while they were both teenagers, is such a minor transgression that it shouldn't bug me.

[wonderwall]

I agree with your point about Laurel and people can absolutely make dumb choices, but it still bugs me. Even on a show like this where calling the cops on a party your sister is at, while they were both teenagers, is such a minor transgression that it shouldn't bug me.

 

Oh no, my comment was regarding yours about how "Laurel would never do that". We simply didn't know who Laurel was at that time. But I thoroughly believe that calling the cops on your sister (even though you're a teenager) is the crappiest thing you can do and undermines Laurel's relationship with Sara. Because before she made amends with Sara after her blowout with Oliver, I never really believed that they were ever close, and the show didn't spend enough time together for me to believe that they were that close after Sara made amends with Laurel. It could've been a wonderful relationship, but it was terribly handled. I know Laurel loves Sara, but I just never believed that they were ever close. 

 

IMO that moment really colored Laurel in a really bad light and further crapped on her relationships with Oliver and Sara. It was a questionable choice made by the writers and it's part of the reason why I still don't like Laurel that much to this day. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[Password]

That wasn't a retcon though. My understanding is that a retcon is "a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events".

What happened between L/O/S before L/O started dating has never been stated previously in prior episodes. Therefore it wasn't a retcon, it was just new information regarding L/O/S and their dynamic.

Now the intention of that scene is a different argument.

I think what made it seem recon-y to me was that two pieces of information - Laurel calling the cops and not being who Oliver thought she was - led up to Oliver and Sara hooking up again. It seemed put in place in a way that made me go "whoa" this is rushed. It really bothered me at the time because I understood putting nails in the Lauriver coffin, but there were other ways to do it without making Laurel the bad guy.

[kismet]

Comic reader here. I just read that post, it seems pretty accurate to me. Their feelings on comic book Dinah/Oliver is different from mine, but I understand that take. I'm not a fan of D/O in the comics because I kinda like Dinah about seventeen billion times better than I like Oliver, and I don't like how she's written in the relationship, nor how their relationship only seems to benefit him. But I totally understand getting engaged in a couple because you watched them fall for each other, and then when the complications [cheating] start, you're already invested enough that you end up rooting for better times/reconciliation.

In the show, we've never seen Laurel and Oliver fall for each other, we've never even seen any good times in their relationship. That made it extremely hard for me to root for them. Add to that the fact that I have never ever liked Laurel for a single time ever, and that pairing was dead in the water from the pilot for me.

Thanks for responding, as a non comic book reader it nice to hear different perspectives and also verify information. That's the beauty of art whether its tv or comics, everyone is free to have their own interpretation. :) I know their are some comic readers here, who have very insightful opinions as well, so always like to hear them. Plus its easier to read a few posts, then dig through decades of comics to verify accuracy. As been mentioned before in these threads cuz comics or comic canon gets thrown around a lot by people who may not actually have a good idea of what is in the comics or may not actually read the comics. Not trying to accuse this Tumblr author or it, because it felt like it was an informed & thoughtful opinion and not some of the other more biased or misleading posts that have come across tumblr.

[wonderwall]

I think what made it seem recon-y to me was that two pieces of information - Laurel calling the cops and not being who Oliver thought she was - led up to Oliver and Sara hooking up again. It seemed put in place in a way that made me go "whoa" this is rushed. It really bothered me at the time because I understood putting nails in the Lauriver coffin, but there were other ways to do it without making Laurel the bad guy.

Yeah I don't think that's retcon but more rushed/bad storytelling. 

[Happy Harpy]

I miss Moira, too, but don't quite understand the love for Moira/Felicity since, IIRC, they had about two scenes together. Only a few more if you count brief exchanges like Felicity saying hello to the Queens at a party or visiting Walter at the hospital. I think they could've been great together though and enjoyed seeing Felicity stand up to Moira even if I did think that Moira actually have went in for her a little more viciously if she wasn't Felicity Smoak, series regular. But that doesn't bother me that much because I didn't want anything to happen to Felicity.

 

Oh, I think they could have been great, but I also think they were great. I was given enough to invest in them. 

The two characters had a "relationship" before they even had scenes together, imo, because Felicity investigated on Moira and that settled her distrust of Mrs Queen (and also had an impact on a later plot point, back when the show was actually well written). 

The few quick scenes until the big showdowns already established a certain number of elements pertaining to the Moira/Felicity interactions. At this point, I could already say that Moira being kind or encouraging toward Felicity would have been out of character, for example.

As for their scenes together in themselves, they were powerful, and well-played enough to be defining imo. They defined the nature of the rapport between those two characters, consisting in a specific set of actions/reactions/interactions due to their respective tempers.

I think it also stood out for me because it was nice to see Felicity with a foe who wasn't evil, and nice to see Moira with a foe who wasn't devious. This originality gave immediately more substance to the whole. 

So, it was a fully fleshed-out relationship for me; a lot was said in very little actual screentime. Enough to gather interest, allow some deductions and even extrapolations.

 

For example, I wonder whether Felicity being particularly akward was a sign that she didn't like Moira and was ill-at-ease when trying to be nice/polite -as it happens often when one suffers from from foot-in-the-mouth disease. Again, it was in S2-A so I give the writers credits.

Or, Felicity didn't trust Moira, because she had reasons to, but she also respected her as Oliver's mother/as a person ("apologize to your mother"). Moira didn't seem to give Felicity the time of the day, but she cared enough to observe her and deduce her feelings for Oliver but even more, how to use them against her.

As for extrapolations...did Moira also see something on Oliver's side? Did she dislike Felicity because she could be the one who could "take" her son from her, more than Laurel ever could? Or was it only "just because" like Isabel?

 

I think it's also precisely the even greater potential that made this relationship look like only a glimpse. Imo, it had more substance than others that had more screentime devoted to them. Even with the few episodes I watched this season, I saw more of Ra's than of Moira/Felicity and I'm not sure that I can say about him and anyone half what I can say about them. I know I don't wish to see him interact with anyone else, though, because I don't see any interesting potential with anyone (and I know he's dead, but since the LP, from now on, death really doesn't mean anything on this show).

And on the opposite, with Moira/Felicity, I miss what there was, and what could have been -but again, Moira's middle name is Wasted Potential imo. 

But hey, I didn't see much more of Mama Smoak and I miss her and her relationship with her daughter, so maybe sometimes, I'm easy to please.

 

It wasn't Felicity's secret to tell but it sure wasn't hers to keep (which is why Felicity was between a rock and a hard place).

 

ICAM, exactly my thoughts. In terms of Felicity, her loyalty has always gone first and foremost to Oliver (Felicity's, not Podlicity's) and not matter how much I love(d) them, she owed nothing to Moira or even to Thea.

Telling Oliver was her business, as Oliver's partner (official since 2x07) in dangerous activities where trust is all.

Telling Thea was, indeed, a Queen family matter. Felicity stayed out of it.

 

About Sara/Laurel in S2-B, I had several theories back then.

The writing made me think at one point that they were going to keep Sara and ditch Laurel, in order to have their dearest GA/BC on the show. They were giving her Laurel's comic book destiny, including Oliver's Love Interest spot, changed her personality from S2-A (imo) and were reversing the good sister/bad sister dynamic that they had hinted at so far as well as the significance of their respective relationship with Oliver. Sara was more on the field than Team Arrow and prominent in the flash-back. Everything seemed to point at Sara being the new Golden Child.

 

But in the light of what happened in The Calm, I think that in fact, they were aiming at making a Draco in Leatherpants (and buckles) out of Laurel.

On the paper, everything imo was written so that the audience pitied poor Laurel (addiction/hitting rock bottom, people leaving her, turning against her at inopportune moments etc) while overexposed bad Sara took everything from her (lampshaded).  The sudden reversal of dynamic and all wasn't exactly a retcon for me, considering that what we got about Sara in S1 was mostly from unreliable narrators imo, but I absolutely believe that we wouldn't have been "enlightened" had Laurel worked in S1. Moreover, after the whole S1 of Goody-Two-Shoes Laurel and the whole "the Queen Gambit was just an escapade, L/O forevah comiiiics!", it did sound as OOC bashing Laurel/propping Sara even in the eyes of this Laurel "hater". Of course, as a hater, I didn't pity Laurel, but I was certainly dismayed -and extremely surprised at being so, LOL.

 

Nevertheless, I think that as always with Laurel imho, the writers misdjudged the audience reaction and above all made the lethal mistake to start with her as an unsympathetic antagonist to the Arrow and even Oliver in S2-A; wearing off some good will in her favor in the process.Plus, I think that those writing tricks can only work so long when you don't have any good characterization/concept of character to sustain it. So they managed to have people annoyed at Sara for a while only, but failed imo to gather pity for Laurel and her "crucible". IIRC from the reactions back them, it rather backfired.

Personally, after the mess that was S-2B, I had a hard time believing that Laurel ever truly cared for Sara (not even being happy to see her alive) and it permanently damaged my vision of their relationship as sisters.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Morrigan2575]

Comic reader here. I just read that post, it seems pretty accurate to me. Their feelings on comic book Dinah/Oliver is different from mine, but I understand that take. I'm not a fan of D/O in the comics because I kinda like Dinah about seventeen billion times better than I like Oliver, and I don't like how she's written in the relationship, nor how their relationship only seems to benefit him. But I totally understand getting engaged in a couple because you watched them fall for each other, and then when the complications [cheating] start, you're already invested enough that you end up rooting for better times/reconciliation.

In the show, we've never seen Laurel and Oliver fall for each other, we've never even seen any good times in their relationship. That made it extremely hard for me to root for them. Add to that the fact that I have never ever liked Laurel for a single time ever, and that pairing was dead in the water from the pilot for me.

It's been awhile but I believe she actually married Everyman in that wedding event. I know Everyman tried to kill her on their honeymoon and she ended up killing him but thinking she killed Ollie

She also glossed over the Prometheus stuff, which I think was the final straw in their relationship.

I agree with your take for the most part. Dinah is a freaking awesome character, I honestly don't get how Dinah fans could see anything of Dinah in Laurel. I've said this before but I see more Dinah in Sarah than in anything of Laurel.

However, I can see her comment about rooting for the couple to over come their issues. There are issues where I get sucked into their relationship and forget all the bullshit. However, after the panel/scene ends I remember and want Dinah as far away as possible. I think the GA title hindered BC because Dinah played second fiddle to the hero but, in BoP she was allowed to be the hero/leader. That's where she flurished as a character (IMO).

The "because comics" argument bothers me because, like that person said, it's from people who never really seemed to read the comics. Or maybe they only read a select few but they're take seems to be that only the good D/O stuff is valid all the bullshit (cheating, faking Sin's death) don't count.

I didn't make it all the way through the Tumblr post, way too long but I'll go back and finish the Felicity parts later.

[olicityfan25]

If Felicity didn't tell Oliver and he found out she knew, he would've been pissed. So it's a good thing she told him.

[wingster55]

I firmly believe Felicity over stepped her boundaries. It wasn't hers to tell. Funny how she wanted Moira to tell Oliver but had no issue with him not telling Thea. 

 

As for Moira in s3...I fear she may have come off as the cliche parental figure keeping the couple in love apart. 

[Starfish35]

I don't think she did. I wish she hadn't told him how and when she did, but I wouldn't have liked her not telling him at all.

And to me the bigger issue was how Oliver treated Moira over it - that was some stunning hypocrisy right there, especially when both of them were agreed not to tell Thea.

[kismet]

If FS had told Thea directly with having no previous relationship with her that would have been a violation.

She did give moira the heads up and allow her to come clean which is honorable, esp considering she was being tasked by walter to research into moira. And she was finding nothing good.

Also I think a major point to mention is that Oliver is the one that demanded her to tell him what was going on when he noticed her being quiet/off. So its not like she immediately went & tattled on Moira. I think I would have done the same thing and told oq if he asked.

[tarotx]

I think some of the Oliver and Laurel shippers use "for comics" but really it's because one of the reasons they invested in the couple S1 was because the comics said DLL and OQ were each other's comic love interest. No consideration of the on/off of their comic characters nor rather or not Oliver's cheating would be acceptable in more modern times nor that these two were not exactly the comic version of their name sakes. So not necessarily comic readers.

I'm actually a comic reader but not an in depth one. I've learned more from investigating than from the comics I've read.

[Starfish35]

I think she should have said "we'll talk about it when this is over". Most people would not blurt something like that out right before a big thing like Oliver's speech. But....honestly I blame the writers for this more than Felicity (whether that makes sense or not). This is more of their plot-driven writing on display. They needed that to happen right before the speech so that Oliver would be going through it in shock and anger, and they wanted that whole thing to force a rift between Oliver and Moira, even though it doesn't really make sense. Felicity is really just a pawn in this whole thing. She is the one they're using to bring this out in the open to create this rift between Oliver and Moira.

That said, I would have in no way supported Felicity keeping the secret indefinitely. Wonderwall said it best earlier - the secret may not have been hers to tell, but it definitely wasn't hers to keep. I do think she needed to tell Oliver - I just wish it hadn't happened how and when it did.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Starfish35

[ruby24]

I also thought Oliver way overreacted to that information. I mean really, was that so much worse than her being involved in plotting to destroy the Glades and kill people? He acted like it was the worst thing any human could ever have done, even though Moira had already told him and Thea about the affair. And of course he decides not to tell Thea, just like Moira did, but for some reason this is so unforgiveable that it has to end his own relationship with his mother forever.

[Starfish35]

I also thought Oliver way overreacted to that information. I mean really, was that so much worse than her being involved in plotting to destroy the Glades and kill people? He acted like it was the worst thing any human could ever have done, even though Moira had already told him and Thea about the affair. And of course he decides not to tell Thea, just like Moira did, but for some reason this is so unforgiveable that it has to end his own relationship with his mother forever.

Exactly. Oliver just completely flipping out over that just never made any sense to me. It was waaayyyyy out of proportion.

This discussion is reminding me how quite a bit of season 2B made me want to beat my head against the wall. The complete logic-fail that was season three had blurred my memory, but it's starting to come back to me. :)

Edited May 31, 2015 by Starfish35

[Password]

This discussion is reminding me how quite a bit of season 2B made me want to beat my head against the wall. The complete logic-fail that was season three had blurred my memory, but it's starting to come back to me. :)

Hahaha I was just about to say the exact same thing. You're all reminding me why it took the entire summer last year to forgive Oliver and move past the second half of season 2.

[kismet]

Seriously, I love Oliver but man did he overreact. Nevermind taht it was hypocritical. How many times did he cheat on LL? Who fathered a child with a random woman? I realize that was all pre-island but still he was sitting on whole bedrock of lies post-island that extend a little beyond just his current nightly arrow activities. And then to top it off, he proceeded to keep the lie going. Bad choice OQ, I was disappointed in him.

I realize that the discovery of the lie as well as him revealing it to Thea may forever fracture his relationship with his Mom. But similar to what @Wonderwall said about Felicity, the same holds for Oliver - it was not his secret to tell but it certainly was not his secret to keep - he should have told Thea out of love & respect for their relationship. Especially, when she began to feel the tension btwn MQ & OQ. As a viewer, I'm not gonna hold it against him its part of his broken character & its plotty - but I totally got Thea's anger.

[AyChihuahua]

Honestly, have big dark family secrets EVER turned out well?  There are pretty much no comedies written about big dark family secrets, only tragedies.

[quarks]

Honestly, have big dark family secrets EVER turned out well?  There are pretty much no comedies written about big dark family secrets, only tragedies.

 

Does Allo, Allo count? 

[olicityfan25]

Somehow I'm not surprised. Felicity telling the truth still makes her "not in the right" with some people. I mean really it's the same people who don't like her, talking against her about this whole parental thing. I'm sure if it was anyone else it would be fine for them to tell Oliver the truth. But they gave It to Felicity to find out which she stumbled upon because of what Moira said at trial about having an affair with MM. They had her put two and two together and that's another thing she can share with Oliver to further their story. Which I'm sure angered the other part of the fandom.

Edited June 1, 2015 by olicityfan25

[BkWurm1]

I also thought Oliver way overreacted to that information. I mean really, was that so much worse than her being involved in plotting to destroy the Glades and kill people? He acted like it was the worst thing any human could ever have done, even though Moira had already told him and Thea about the affair. And of course he decides not to tell Thea, just like Moira did, but for some reason this is so unforgiveable that it has to end his own relationship with his mother forever.

It's a different kind of betrayal than what Moira did to the city.  It is a HUGE deal that not only wasn't his sister blood related to their father, but that she was the child of a really evil dude who at that moment, Oliver thought he'd killed. I think he had a right to feel betrayed and this coming on top of her involvement with the undertaking, I also sympathize with him feeling he could not trust her.

 

BUT the part where he's going to punish her for keeping a secret that he thinks has to be kept too is absurd beyond absurd.  I think he was supposed to be mad that it even happened, but it's the secrets and lies that he complained about, making him such a hypocrite. 

 

Given his freak out this year about Thea handing Malcolm over to the LoA and about how she'd "settle down" (lordy, lordy that phrase sets my teeth on edge" and come to realize she basically killed her father and then never forgive herself, I wonder if the reason in part why Oliver did choose to hide the truth from Thea was because he had killed her father (even if she wouldn't have found that out unless he shared his secret)

 

Does Allo, Allo count? 

I watched that (and all the Brit Coms) when I was an impressionable teen and I think Allo Allo permanently warped my impression of the French. 

 

And celery. 

 

I still can't figure out what the egg beater was for.   

[wingster55]

I honestly think Oliver feels that only he can keep secrets, everyone else be damned. Thea knowing Malcolm's alive, Moira knowing Malcolm was the father, Barry's "similar case"...it's kind of a thing with him. 

[statsgirl]

That's the thing I dislike about Oliver the most, that there is one rule for him (keep secrets; protect people but don't tell them what's going on) and another for everyone else.

 

But I do understand why he was so angry at Moira when he found out about Thea's bio dad.  Partly it was because he still thought of Thea as his pure little sister, untainted by evil, only to find out Merlyn is her father; and also because he thought that Moira had changed after the Glades and was now honest and trying to be a better person. And then he found out it wasn't true, and that Walter had been helping her hide the secret.  But he was a fool not to tell Thea when he found out because she deserved to know.

 

It was Moira's secret to tell but it wasn't hers to hide.  Thea needed to know.  That's why Felicity went to Moira first, to tell her she she needed to come clean but when Moira refused to and threatened Felicity in turn, I think Felicity was right to tell Oliver.  She had no relationship with Thea so she shouldn't be the one to tell her but she had to tell someone and let the secret out.   (Felicity had so little to do with Thea that even after Oliver became Al Sah her, Thea still didn't know there was something between Oliver and Felicity.  Looks like Roy really didn't gossip.)

 

I think Moira and Felicity would have been so interesting together because for Moira there was nothing too grey to keep her family together, and Felicity is all Valiant for Truth and solving mysteries.  But I'm sure that Moira would have been completely supportive of Felicity leaving Ray to deal with the containment of the virus while she went off to save Oliver.

 

Honestly, have big dark family secrets EVER turned out well?  There are pretty much no comedies written about big dark family secrets, only tragedies.

If they were going to turn out well, they wouldn't have had to be big dark secrets in the first place.

 

 

At some point Sara met Oliver Queen and Tommy Merlyn. Sara formed a crush on Oliver and even snuck out of the house to go to a secret party that Tommy held. Laurel however out of envy called the cops and Sara was grounded and by the time she wasn't, Oliver and Laurel were dating...

 

Arrow ep2x11 Blind Spot it's in the island flashbacks 

starts at minute 17:05

 

Thanks, I'd been looking for that.  Sara's story of the party she got her crush on Oliver starts at 16.00.

 

The other salient flashback scene I remember was when Laurel told Sara she and Oliver were going to move in together and Sara was "you know he's cheated on you with at least ten other girls" and Laurel replied with the perfect narcissist's line of "Why can't you be happy for me?"  And then there was Laurel's reaction when Sara came back from the dead, anger and throwing a wine glass at the door. Laurel's relationship with Sara was all messed up even without adding Oliver to the mix.

 

It's interesting that in s2, they threw Laurel under the boat for Sara's character, and then in 3x01 they literally fridged Sara so that Laurel could become the Black Canary.

[wingster55]

I still don't get why Felicity never insisted Oliver tell Thea the truth. If she's into honesty and openness..it doesn't add up. 

 

Partly it was because he still thought of Thea as his pure little sister, untainted by evil

 

Pure? Sure, when she was sneaking into clubs, taking drugs and crashing cars. I don't think he had any illusions of her. He may have wanted her to be the same 12 year old he left..but that wasn't the case.

Edited June 2, 2015 by wingster55

[olicityfan25]

I still don't get why Felicity never insisted Oliver tell Thea the truth. If she's into honesty and openness..it doesn't add up.

Pure? Sure, when she was sneaking into clubs, taking drugs and crashing cars. I don't think he had any illusions of her. He may have wanted her to be the same 12 year old he left..but that wasn't the case.

How was Felicity supposed to know that Oliver didn't tell Thea?

At least Felicity tells the truth. More than we can say for most characters on the show.

[lemotomato]

I still don't get why Felicity never insisted Oliver tell Thea the truth. If she's into honesty and openness..it doesn't add up. 

 

She owed Oliver the truth about what she knew, but it's not like she was in any position to make him do anything. They were just friends. What he did with the information was a family matter and didn't involve her.

 

Besides, when would she have time to insist that he tell Thea, or even talk to him? He spent the rest of the episode chasing down Nyssa, confronting his mom, and having sex with Sara. Then he was busy the next 4 episodes obsessing over Slade and getting sucked into the Lance family drama.

[wonderwall]

Lmao look what good secret keeping did on Arrow. 

 

• Oliver and Moira keeping Malcolm a secret from Thea ripped them apart and was one of the main reasons why they lost most of their fortune.
• Laurel keeping Sara's death from Quentin made him go berserk. 
• Sara keeping the fact that she was alive from Laurel made Laurel lash out. 
• Oliver keeping the secret of his identity from Tommy ruined their friendship. 
• No one told Oliver Isabel's involvement with Robert -- If he knew he wouldn't have slept with her (ew)

 

If Felicity kept that secret from Oliver and he somehow found out (which he would've), that would've ruined her relationship with Oliver AKA one of the very few people who matter to Felicity. Which is why I get why she did what she did and why I don't think what she did was wrong. 

 

I don't think it would be Felicity place to pester Oliver to tell Thea the truth. Once Felicity passed on the knowledge to Oliver, it was like passing the baton. Her part was over. It was Oliver who screwed up by not telling Thea, but it wasn't Felicity's responsibility to force Oliver to tell Thea because THAT would be overstepping her boundaries. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

I don't think it was Felicity's place to tell Thea. I don't think it was her responsibility to convince Oliver to tell Thea. But I do think as his friend, she could have encouraged him more to tell Thea. I don't think its stepping over the line for her to encourage him to tell Thea. To constantly hound him about it is another case. The writers dropped it from the script to set up the big kidnapping & reveal, so really it likely would not have mattered even if she talked more about it with him. IRL, I think it all would have played out differently.

 

The secret that bothered me more is that Oliver did not tell Moira who Slade was. Honestly, I think that was the bigger secret that then wound up costing Moira her life. If he had told her the truth that he knew Slade from the island & he was unstable that prehaps might have kept Moira safer. I think that is one of the reasons he feels responsible for her death. Its not just that he knew Slade or she died because of her relationship with OQ. Rather his silence made her vulnerable to Slade's preying. Then again, Im not sure he really knew what Slade had in mind, so perhaps he thought he was keeping her safe. It's a really grey area as to what is the best tactical, realistic & emotional plan that keeps his loved ones safe. Its similar to him keeping his team in the dark about LoA. There are pros/cons on each side of the argument.

 

Edited - because setting and stepping are not the same

Edited June 2, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Huge mistake that Oliver didn't tell Moira about Slade.  It makes it all the more frustrating that in season 3  he was still making the same mistakes, not telling Thea about Malcolm using her to kill Sara so that she kept trusting him; not telling Diggle, Felicity and maybe Roy about going mole to take down Ra's.

 

He always does what he thinks best to protect other people, and 9 times out of 10, it's a mistake.

 

It's ironic that Thea ended up leaving with Malcolm Merlyn, and Oliver ended up fighting Ra's, because of secrets kept from Thea.

 

As for how much do you push for other people's secrets to be revealed, that's a very grey area unless you're dealing with physical or sexual abuse.   We don't know how much Felicity encouraged Oliver to tell Thea because it got dropped after that.  Maybe she did tell him to but it wasn't her family, she barely knew Thea so it wasn't her place to over-rule Oliver and insist that Thea be told.

 

Pure? Sure, when she was sneaking into clubs, taking drugs and crashing cars. I don't think he had any illusions of her. He may have wanted her to be the same 12 year old he left..but that wasn't the case.

Denial is a very powerful thing, especially when it's about someone you've taken care of.

 

Oliver is 10 years older than Thea.  That means he would have played with her when she was a baby, protected her as she first started exploring and hurt herself, complained when she messed up his games by wanting to play or interrupted his time with Tommy or Laurel.  That's the illusion he had of her, as well as not knowing how strong she really was.

 

He knew she was into drinking and partying but he most likely would have thought that with a bit of parental discipline, she would straighten herself out and go back to the person he knew she is.

[AyChihuahua]

Lmao look what good secret keeping did on Arrow. 

 

• Oliver and Moira keeping Malcolm a secret from Thea ripped them apart and was one of the main reasons why they lost most of their fortune.
• Laurel keeping Sara's death from Quentin made him go berserk. 
• Sara keeping the fact that she was alive from Laurel made Laurel lash out. 
• Oliver keeping the secret of his identity from Tommy ruined their friendship. 
• No one told Oliver Isabel's involvement with Robert -- If he knew he wouldn't have slept with her (ew)

That's what I meant about big dark family secrets never turning out well.  Just tell the secret in the first place and deal with it, and it doesn't become so dark and big.

 

However, I 100% disagree with you on the Isabel/Robert/Oliver thing.  TOTALLY worth it, just for the look on Oliver's face when he realizes he banged his daddy's mistress.

[statsgirl]

The shock worked though. He spent the next year not banging anyone.

[wonderwall]

That's what I meant about big dark family secrets never turning out well.  Just tell the secret in the first place and deal with it, and it doesn't become so dark and big.

 

However, I 100% disagree with you on the Isabel/Robert/Oliver thing.  TOTALLY worth it, just for the look on Oliver's face when he realizes he banged his daddy's mistress.

 

Ur nasty :p 

 

Also yeah, I know. I was just giving examples about how secrets are detrimental which is why it's a good thing that Felicity didn't keep Thea's paternity a secret. It's to prove that even though Felicity was between a rock and a hard place, she did the right thing. She may have stepped over the line a little (in some people's eyes) but that doesn't mean what she did was wrong. Telling the truth to those who deserve to hear it is never wrong. 

 

Because in the end, people who are unhappy with and against Felicity telling Oliver about Thea's paternity, are advocating for Felicity to have lied. Seriously though, how do people think it would've been better for Felicity to have lied to Oliver by omission? 

Edited June 2, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

Oh come on!  His face was absolutely hilarious in that scene!

[wonderwall]

Oh come on!  His face was absolutely hilarious in that scene!

 

FINE. I admit, it was hilarious when Oliver found out he and his father are wiener cousins. Scarring for Oliver, hilarious for us. We're terrible people :p

[lexicon]

I was not surprised by OQ/SL friendship or even a physical relationship. But when they were actually dating and discussing places to stay together (albeit for different reasons) it did feel a little like whoa that accelerated quickly. I keep on seeing that gif of Ron Burgundy.

 

Are we sure everyone is ok with this? Should people be ok with this? Shouldn't SL be trying to repair her relationship with her family? Shouldn't OQ recognize that this is not the wisest decision if he does care/love both SL & LL?

 

To willingly put yourself between/come between 2 sisters for a second time is just not the best decision. To semi quote Robert Queen, "there is no way this ends well for either of you". I know the Queen's Gambit was sabotaged, but maybe fate was trying to tell you something? That being said, I totally understand as 2 lost souls who suffered similar tragedies and are still broken from them would seek & find comfort in each other. So it is a catch-22 situation in many ways.

 

The fact that Laurel was so accepting within an episode or 2 after the family dinner of doom was just a weird choice for the writers to make. I have a sister and I try to be careful in meddling in her relationship. I give her advice, but I try to let her make her own decisions. LL having been intimately involved with OQ just brings her advice giving to a whole other level of awkward & weird, perhaps even inappropriate. Then again, I'm not as familiar with the etiquette on advice giving for a sibling who is dating your ex, who happens to also be one the people he cheated on you with. That's a bad talk show level therapeutic conversation skill set that I've yet to come across personally or professionally.

 

It all happened over the course of ONE episode, I remember it well because it felt like I'd gotten emotional whiplash by the end. I was just left stunned.

 

By the end, all I could think was how the hell was I more upset at O/S, not just getting back together but showing up at the Lance family dinner as though it were nbd, than Laurel was? I mean, yeah she was upset at dinner but she sure got over it fast.

 

That dinner scene was the one time I was rooting for LL and they had to ruin it by having her apologise to Sara and then later give her advice on Oliver, which was ridiculous. Beyond the obviously gross factor, can I just question the sense in having Laurel (the woman he cheated on multiple times) give advice on dating Oliver? Really? The ickiness of the S/O/L triangle just never fails to squick me out and it gets worse when they have everyone in show act as though it's nbd.

[Password]

It all happened over the course of ONE episode, I remember it well because it felt like I'd gotten emotional whiplash by the end. I was just left stunned.

 

By the end, all I could think was how the hell was I more upset at O/S, not just getting back together but showing up at the Lance family dinner as though it were nbd, than Laurel was? I mean, yeah she was upset at dinner but she sure got over it fast.

 

That dinner scene was the one time I was rooting for LL and they had to ruin it by having her apologise to Sara and then later give her advice on Oliver, which was ridiculous. Beyond the obviously gross factor, can I just question the sense in having Laurel (the woman he cheated on multiple times) give advice on dating Oliver? Really? The ickiness of the S/O/L triangle just never fails to squick me out and it gets worse when they have everyone in show act as though it's nbd.

Preach.

[BkWurm1]

Huge mistake that Oliver didn't tell Moira about Slade.  It makes it all the more frustrating that in season 3  he was still making the same mistakes, not telling Thea about Malcolm using her to kill Sara so that she kept trusting him; not telling Diggle, Felicity and maybe Roy about going mole to take down Ra's.

 

I can see at least Oliver's side in not sharing about his end game for Ra's.  Hindsight reveals he should have armed them with knowledge because everything came to a head in just a few weeks but going in, Oliver thought at soonest he was looking at many months before anything would happen.  He didn't want to leave everyone holding their breaths unable to move forward when for all he knew his undercover adventure might go on for years. 

 

On their sides they would have much rather had the hope to hold onto but Oliver had it in his head that they could all move on and be happy if he made a clean break.  He was taking strength in imagining them safe and happy and going about their lives.  He was an idiot because there was no such thing as just moving on when he was still out there suffering. 

 

In the short term him not offering them hope also kept them safe by making sure that they acted at all times like he was lost to them.  There was no concern of something being overheard and as long as they didn't indicate there was anything about to happen, they would be safe from Ra's interest. 

 

Then there's the argument that even if he had told him of his plans they still would likely have after his actions believed he was brainwashed and thus still not have trusted him when he called for their help. 

[AyChihuahua]

He should have told Diggle, who "keeps secrets for a living" and did not tell his own wife that Barry Allen was the Flash, about the general infiltration/takedown plan, and Merlyn's involvement and inside info.  Diggle is a soldier, married to a soldier/spy.  He would have been helpful, not had issues with "moving on," and he would have kept the secret.  I'm okay with Oliver not telling anyone else, but I will never agree (in general, that's not directed at you) that he shouldn't have told Diggle.  That was storytelling for the purposes of surprise and plot, only.  If these were real people, I am 100% sure that he would have told Diggle, but the writers wanted the drama of Diggle losing trust in Oliver.