Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[kismet]

Will need to rewatch to really get a grasp of it all. But think SmallScreenDiva has a good timeline a couple posts above. I think it was gradually for OQ, no definite moment that he can pinpoint, just like there is no definite moment he can pinpoint realizing he was in love with FS.

 

I do always wonder if FS's silence help to perpetrate his belief that he could not be with her. She never verbalized that she loved him or wanted to be with him until 320. Implying that you would be with someone if he stopped dangling maybes or got his ass out of his head is not the same as saying that you are all in for this relationship. She walked away about as many times as he pushed her away, so it was always gonna be a rocky start. Their relationship would change everything from both their friendship & professional relationship. Not knowing if FS really wants to be in the relationship would make me hesitate or at least give in to my insecurities if I was OQ. I know FS needed to not have maybes dangled. And maybe I'm in the minority here, but FS in her own way dangled maybes by her silence in wanting to pursue a relationship.

 

I also wonder how much damage was done by FS's woman you love comment & we can't go back comment the next episode. If Oliver had made any movement to wanting to try to be in a relationship again, she certainly removed that option by her words post his return. I guess we will never know what OQ might have said if FS had not visually broken his heart in Alleyway of Angst. Honestly, the look on OQ's face during that scene made the skewering on the mountaintop seem like a more pleasant experience.

[BkWurm1]

If Oliver had made any movement to wanting to try to be in a relationship again, she certainly removed that option by her words post his return. I guess we will never know what OQ might have said if FS had not visually broken his heart in Alleyway of Angst. Honestly, the look on OQ's face during that scene made the skewering on the mountaintop seem like a more pleasant experience

 

I always read his delay in talking to his team and the less than enthusiastic greeting to them followed immediately by getting right down to business as a clear sign that while he might have regretted it even more, he was even more certain that nothing could be between them.  IMO Oliver broke his own heart and more so, he knew it before he returned.  

 

When Sara comes back I hope she gets at least one good jab in there about him doing nothing to avenge her murder.  

[statsgirl]

And a second jab for protecting Malcolm Merlyn who orchestrated her murder.

 

I always read his delay in talking to his team and the less than enthusiastic greeting to them followed immediately by getting right down to business as a clear sign that while he might have regretted it even more, he was even more certain that nothing could be between them.

From the way Oliver put Felicity aside and went to thank Diggle and Roy for protecting his city, much less contacting his team only after he'd donned his leathers, given his speech and made his arrangements with Malcolm Merlyn, the writing seemed to be on the wall that Felicity's dreams of a relationship with him were doomed.

 

When he mansplained that she was angry at him because she had dreams of them being together when he returned which weren't going to happen, that pretty much said that he had decided it wasn't going to happen since she hadn't even touched on the subject yet.  So once again, like in 3x01, 3x07 and 3x09, it was Oliver telling her that there was no chance for a relationship between them.

[romantic idiot]

But again, we haven't even seen the dynamic they had in the comics yet. The way she was introduced wasn't as a fellow costumed superhero who he teams up with, I guess because they wanted to show her own origin story.

And yeah, I can get behind the Felicity death thing, if that's what has to happen. Once again, on Smallville, that's basically what happened to Lana and a lot of people felt like him being with Lois did feel like a second choice, but Clark has to be with Lois, so however they got there, they did get there in the end and stayed true to that character, because they knew they had to.

And that was pretty much one 9f the worst things about the show and why I stopped watching it. Small villeins is hardly any model to measure Arrow against except to pat themselves on the back about how much better they are, except for Chloe and early Lex. Arrow have already shown themselves to be a better show by having Team Arrow in place, revealing Oliver's secret early, responding to fan favourite pairings and actor chemistry. The fear of Arrow being another Smallville (and my hatred of OQ/LL in the first 2 episodes) is what made me avoid the show for 3 seasons so I hope to God they don't look at Small villeins for a way to be.

[kismet]

I always read his delay in talking to his team and the less than enthusiastic greeting to them followed immediately by getting right down to business as a clear sign that while he might have regretted it even more, he was even more certain that nothing could be between them.  IMO Oliver broke his own heart and more so, he knew it before he returned.  

 

When Sara comes back I hope she gets at least one good jab in there about him doing nothing to avenge her murder.  

Unless of course, he got down to business to finish it, so he could be with her. Ras as a looming evil is a different type of threat than just general criminals. So I could understand him wanting Ras to be done with before he put her directly in harm's way as Tatsu had warned.

 

Ultimately, we'll never know. Because as crazy as the writers claim to be, when it comes down to it a lot of their plots are very wussy and whatever leaps they make they undo the next 1-2 episodes. Also as brave as they claim to be wanting to jump the shark & such -  they cling to the traditional TV structure of everything important must happen in finales or sweeps. IRL, if F&O had been able to have a conversation post return, they likely would have worked out/on many of their issues - at least enough to pursue a relationship. But we couldn't have that because it was not end April/May. So in the end, it becomes very frustrating to watch because we get all these crazy plot points that do not amount to much and in many ways hurts the character development.

[tv echo]

I think they are retconning the Oliver & Laurel relationship a little. 

 

IIRC, in "The Return", when Oliver sneaked back to Starling City, there were no scenes of Oliver spying on Laurel with longing glances. 

 

In last night's "My Name Is Oliver Queen," in the flashback scene when Oliver explained to Tatsu why he's not returning to Starling City, he said: "I tortured Shrieve for hours. I don't want that darkness around my mother or my sister."  No mention of Laurel, the girl he's supposed to love and whose picture he gazed at during his first year stranded on the island.  On the other hand, I guess you could argue that he knew Laurel would not want to be near him if he returned since he cheated on her and got her sister 'drowned'.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I don't know if it's retconning their relationship so much as ignoring it happened. I really think that one of their bullet points this season was establishing Oliver and Felicity as the couple of Arrow. In order to leave no doubt, they simply aren't going to mention Oliver and Laurel. The only time its been reference in the romantic was by Laurel. We used to date and something like I can't remember why I loved you (I can't really remember that one). One was a throw away line and one was very negative, both were past tense. Oliver never did. 

 

Question regarding series synopsis: didn't it used to reference Laurel as the ex-girlfriend? 

[ostentatious]

But just because he stared at her picture the first year - before he was with Shado, before Sara turned out to be alive, before he started having his POV about Laurel shifted by some conversations with Sara - doesn't really mean anything more than what the show chooses to let it mean. Sure, at some point before October 2012 he got back to the island and probably found her picture in some stuff in the fuselage at that point, and he may have hit a major, major low and grabbed the pic and thought oh hey, maybe I can make *that* right..and maybe the book, maybe I can use that to make things right, before my inevitable early violent death. But that doesn't mean that by the time of The Return he was thinking about her very often, or particularly fondly. 

[BkWurm1]

But just because he stared at her picture the first year - before he was with Shado, before Sara turned out to be alive, before he started having his POV about Laurel shifted by some conversations with Sara - doesn't really mean anything more than what the show chooses to let it mean. Sure, at some point before October 2012 he got back to the island and probably found her picture in some stuff in the fuselage at that point, and he may have hit a major, major low and grabbed the pic and thought oh hey, maybe I can make *that* right..and maybe the book, maybe I can use that to make things right, before my inevitable early violent death. But that doesn't mean that by the time of The Return he was thinking about her very often, or particularly fondly. 

Since the Sara flashbacks in season two this has been my thought process as well. 

 

Season one left the impression that Oliver spent his whole five years on the island clinging to Laurel's picture with as much love, regret, and hope as Tom Hanks did with his fiancé's picture in Castaway.  Anyone who saw that movie knows he treated that image like a lifeline.  

 

When we first met Oliver, it seemed Laurel's picture was also his lifeline, the talisman that brought him home, but is our new understanding of it a retcon?  Technically perhaps since I think the show initially had one direction and they shifted it but in the same manner we in season one were given the initial strong impression that Oliver spent five years on the island, (Hey it was there right in the opening credits!) we found out by the end of season two  that was not true and in looking back, there were so many obvious signs. 

 

Intentional or not, looking back at season one, even early season one, there were signs that support our new understanding that Oliver didn't spend his time away always mooning over a photo.  Just knowing he skipped out on her plans for their future and instead chose to take her sister on a booty cruise called his devotion into question.  Even before Shadow showed up, the picture seemed to fade in importance.  We saw it less, Slade mocked it openly and we found out that Oliver hadn't even carried the picture with him intentionally, it was just some last minute thing Laurel had shoved in his hands while behind her back Sara was sneaking on board. 

 

I think if we didn't have the comic history that told many in the preshow audience that of course BC and GA will be a couple, I don't think people would look at the writing and call it a retcon anymore than they could say that his time on the island was a retcon.  We found out about his Bravta connections and a host of other skills we just couldn't explain pretty early on in the show.  I'm sure him not being island bound the entire time was always the plan, it's just it took some time for the truth of the story to be unfolded.

 

I look at Oliver's relationship with Laurel in the same manner.   Initial impressions were deceiving.  Now having confirmation of how unaffected he was by the sight of her in that flashback, it's not so much a retcon as the real truth of the story unfolding. 

 

Could any of us have predicted that Oliver had the option to return to Starling at the end of 3 years being away instead of 5?  Something we don't know yet prompted him to decide two years later to finally go home and something we don't know yet prompted him to find meaning in that photo Laurel had given him.  

 

In season one, he went home to honor his father, dish out some dark justice, be with his family and to try to atone for how he treated Laurel.  Maybe as he slipped deeper and deeper into the darkness he recognized early apparitions of who he was to come to be in the pretty evil way he treated Laurel.  In season one he both accepted he had this darkness in him and at the same time, he tried to reconnect with what he'd lost (or who) and I think Laurel came to subconsciously represent his struggle. 

 

On the most basic level, he OWED it to her to apologize but he couldn't seem to leave it at that. It was like if he could get Laurel to forgive and move past who he had been, then he could perhaps hope the darkness of who he had become was not a manifestation of the inevitable.  That he could be something better but how could he really blame the darkness on his five years away when he'd already started down the road all on his own?

 

"Fixing" things with Laurel would let him have at least the small solace that he was made into who he had become rather than it being who he really had always been.  It was proof that he still had the ability to hope for something better for himself one day even if it was only a small internal feeling of redemption before his inevitable death. 

 

He found a level of forgiveness with Laurel - but instead of giving him any peace about his past choices, I think it only made how he felt worse about himself in the present.   He betrayed his best friend on every level.  Killed his father, slept with the woman he loved and the worst blow, "let" Tommy die all the while hearing his friend's extreme disappointment in who he'd become repeat over and over on a loop. 

 

In the end, pursuing a connection with Laurel made him think he didn't deserve to reclaim any part of his old life.  That he should just go back to his prison - punishing himself and simultaneously locking him away to keep him from hurting anyone more.  

 

He found no solace in who he used to be BUT the connections he made with Diggle and Felicity as this new broken man with a mission did crack open his life and bring him some light and hope.   Diggle and Felicity  - two people he was clearly amazed by - those relationships gave him something of what he'd been looking for, a foundation to become something better. 

 

And that does not feel like a retcon to me.  

 

Going back to the movie Castaway.  It's interesting to remember that in the end, no matter the feelings that might have lingered from that past life for both Hank's character and the woman he'd loved, too much had changed.  The guy starring at the picture, in the end, put her in his past.  Is it unreasonable that Oliver would do the same with Laurel?

Edited May 18, 2015 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

From the Behind the Mask thread...

when did oliver realise he was in love with felicity? "in episode 2x06...that was a passive admission of his feelings."
+"When did Oliver realise he was in love with Felicity?" SA: "I think 2x06, when he gets her 'Because of the life I lead..."

This baffles me.  He realized he was in love with Felicity that early on?  But then went on to have a relationship with Sara?

[apinknightmare]

It's not so baffling to me. We're talking about Oliver "I must deprive myself of happiness" Queen. Even IF that's when Oliver realized he was falling for her (that's Stephen's interpretation of it - and Oliver was still trying to deny it in 3x01, when Diggle pointed out that Oliver loved Felicity), if that was a passive admission of feelings, it was still one in the idiotic "I can't be with someone I could really care about" vein, so Sara seems more like a consolation relationship than anything. 

[steeledwithakiss]

I always thought he knew he was falling for her in 2x06. He probably thought he could squash those feelings because he just had no intention to pursue anything with her. I think because of the danger, the fact that he didn't want to screw up their relationship. His past experience as a boyfriend have been pretty bad. When Barry shows up he's obviously struggling with jealousy but again decides to deny it and tries to be supportive of them at the end. For me Oliver getting with Sara is a lot like Felicity getting with Ray. They couldn't be with the other and were trying to get over those feelings with someone else. Not to say they didn't care about R and S. They did a lot but they were never in love. I'm not sure Oliver put any name on what he was feeling for Felicity before voicing it in 2x23. That's why he changes after that and stops trying to get over those feelings with meaningless sex (isabel) or doomed relationships. Once he acknowledges to himself he's in love with Felicity and it's not going away anytime soon he thinks being around her, as her friend with maybe a possibility for more in the future, is going to be enough for him.

 

It is funny how SA changed his tune. At the beginning of s2 he was playing Oliver falling for Felicity there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. But then 2x13 happened and the jealousy for Barry was just curiosity. I don't know if he knew about the ILY fake out of the finale that had to be surprising, but he tried to downplay O/F in interviews after that.

[dtissagirl]

This baffles me.  He realized he was in love with Felicity that early on?  But then went on to have a relationship with Sara?

 

This is what I have been thinking since 2x06, so I'm glad I was right. :) Or at least I'm glad that Stephen was playing Oliver AS falling for Felicity in early S2, and then reacting in the most obvious Oliver way: by repressing it, and hooking up with someone else.

Edited May 18, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

I think if we didn't have the comic history that told many in the preshow audience that of course BC and GA will be a couple, I don't think people would look at the writing and call it a retcon anymore than they could say that his time on the island was a retcon.  We found out about his Bravta connections and a host of other skills we just couldn't explain pretty early on in the show.  I'm sure him not being island bound the entire time was always the plan, it's just it took some time for the truth of the story to be unfolded.

 

It was openly stated in S1 that Oliver left the Island.  He pretty much told Diggle that.  Plus you have the fact that Oliver was a Bratva Captain, and had enough connections that he could pull favors.  I personally always assumed the Tattoos were clear hints that he got off the island (so pissed they pulled the BS Slade giving Oliver the dragon tattoo).  

 

So Oliver getting off the island was 100% the original plan.  What may have shifted was the whole Picture/Lifeline thing.  I'm sure if Lauriver worked in S1 we'd have multiple flashback episodes of Oliver clinging to the photo or talking about Laurel.  His return home in 314 would have had Oliver following Laurel with mopey/sad eyes.  Then again, who knows?  Maybe the original intent was for Oliver to Captain Kirk all over those flashbacks and have a different girl every season.  I do think that S5 will involve Oliver going back to the island finding the picture and latching onto that as his lifeline while trying to fix both his and his father's wrongs.

 

It's not so baffling to me. We're talking about Oliver "I must deprive myself of happiness" Queen. Even IF that's when Oliver realized he was falling for her (that's Stephen's interpretation of it - and Oliver was still trying to deny it in 3x01, when Diggle pointed out that Oliver loved Felicity), if that was a passive admission of feelings, it was still one in the idiotic "I can't be with someone I could really care about" vein, so Sara seems more like a consolation relationship than anything.

 

I've always thought the speech at the end of 206 (and quite probably the look on Oliver's face when Felicity walked away after the Oliver/Isabel reveal) was pretty much the first time Oliver realized he had more than platonic feelings for Felicity.  The fact that he went onto hook up with Sara in 313 didn't really surprise me because I could easily see Oliver's rationale.  He can't be with Felicity because being the Arrow puts Felicity in danger and robs her of a potentially normal life.  Sara on the other hand is already in danger by being the Canary and left normal life behind the minute the boat went down.

 

In a way O/S was partially two people who cared/loved each other reaching out and finding some happiness in they're screwed up lives.  However, they were never (IMO) portrayed as in love with each other. I think they both had other loves and their S2 relationship was mostly comfort.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[hogwash]

Unnecessary and boring S02 Arrow/Olicity fandom recap time! Oliver realizing how he felt in 206 is definitely the impression I got too. SA playing it that way explains the Count, the Barry jealousy, the disbelief/wtf look on his face in 210 when Felicity seemed to think Barry was the only guy interested in her. I got into Arrow from tumblr so I was watched S01 thinking that Olicity was just a fanon ship. Then S02 started and everything seemed flipped. The show completely brushed aside the big Lauriver push that seemed to be happening at the end of S01 and seemed to be going full steam ahead with Oliver/Felicity. I remember thinking after Russia and the 3 arrows in the Count thing how the crap are they gonna keep them apart?! Then the lunge happened, Sara Lance (along with the rest of the Lance family...) kinda took over, and Oliver/Felicity seemed to go back into fanon. 

 

I remember from the interviews/press before the show came back from the midseason that there was talk about two obstacles for Oliver/Felicity. But not many people (me included) thought the lunge was it because as far we knew Sara Lance was the show's Black Canary and course correction for the LL disaster. And what were the odds that they get rid of the classic Black Canary/Green Arrow for a fanon ship? Side note: I think that's why Sara/Oliver got so much hate after the lunge. Oliver was doing that E14-E19 thing where he gets extra stupid (yay, consistency? Fingers crossed that S04 bucks that freaking trend...). But the Sara backlash was vicious considering how well received she was during the earlier episodes. While Sara/Oliver didn't have the same oomph for some as Oliver/Felicity, it was still 10000000x better than Lauriver. They had the Black Canary they always wanted, Arsenal, Sin, the Connor Hawke mention, etc. It was as close to Comic!GA as the show has gotten (Damn S03 to HELL). Obviously, that didn't stick but it seemed like it would at the time. Cue meltdowns and hate from both the Lauriver/Olicity sides.

 

That's another reason Ray/Felicity was so freaking annoying. It was the exact same stall! Both stalls even broke up in E20. You'd think after Slade ruse, we get something different to keep Oliver/Felicty apart. But nope. They just flipped Oliver and Felicity's S02 positions and replaced Sara with a boring creep/nonfactor.

 

Now Oliver/Felicity shippers should be grateful Black Canary/Green Arrow (in the form of Sara/Oliver) happened already. It's the biggest indication that Felicity won't be taking a fall headfirst into a dirty alley in the name of comicbook canon...(I'm totally not bitter.)

Edited May 18, 2015 by hogwash

[lemotomato]

Now Oliver/Felicity shippers should be grateful Black Canary/Green Arrow (in the form of Sara/Oliver) happened already. It's the biggest indication that Felicity won't be taking a fall headfirst into a dirty alley in the name of comicbook canon...(I'm totally not bitter.)

I still wouldn't put it past the EPs to do that eventually (kill Felicity), if they want to circle back to OQ/LL near the end of the series. And if KC's comments at the recent con are any indication, there's at least one person on the show convinced that Lauriver is still in the cards.

[hogwash]

I still wouldn't put it past the EPs to do that eventually (kill Felicity), if they want to circle back to OQ/LL near the end of the series. And if KC's comments at the recent con are any indication, there's at least one person on the show convinced that Lauriver is still in the cards.

 

That's the fear, but S03 made death in the Arrowverse utterly meaningless so I'd like to see them try (please don't try, show).

[Sakura12]

We've been repeatedly told that Sara was not the real Black Canary despite being given all of the comic BC's skills and traits and now even the dip in the Lazarus Pit. She was just the replacement for the second rate Black Canary to take her place. 

 

I wouldn't put it past the EP's to want to show the REAL Black Canary, Dinah Laurel Lance with Oliver Queen's Green Arrow if they run past five seasons. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Deleted

Edited May 18, 2015 by DrSpaceman10

[Sakura12]

I keep reading that Sara got a lot of backlash after the lunge, but I was in fandom then and I don't remember it that way at all. I do remember some people (myself included) being tired of all of the focus on the Lances and the sidelining of Diggle (seriously, there were episodes where he just stood in the foundry and barely had any lines) and Felicity. What I remember happening during 2B was the show going for a GA/BC dynamic, which inevitably cut Diggle/Felicity/Roy out of the team, I hope they don't try that again. 

 

You weren't on tumblr or twitter then. All the sudden hate made have to stop going on my tumblr for awhile after that. Caity even mentioned something about that not going on her twitter after that episode. What helped was how she handled that question in interviews. Then fans came around again, realizing that even she was blindsided by the hook up. 

 

Then we got the Lance Family drama is ruining the show. Basically Olicity fans are now going through what us Sara fans went through last year. And for me it wasn't the Lance Family drama, it was the Laurel drama.

 

I wanted to see the Lance Family talk about Sara's return, I wanted to see Sara reunite with her mother who refused to give up on her. The way they showed it, Dinah was like "yay! you're back. Goodbye." Quentin had a few scenes with Sara and saw that she was jumpy around loud noises and ready to attack, he saw her kill and accepted her. We never got any of that from Dinah or Laurel. So for me there wasn't any Lance Family. Just them being there so Laurel could have something to react too and magically cure her intermittent drug and alcohol addiction, then get handed the jacket so she could take her sister's life. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[Angel12d]

It's nice to know SA's opinion/head canon for when he thinks Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity. It's particularly nice to know that we weren't reading into things or that O/F didn't come out of nowhere like some naysayers would have you believe, although I don't know if I'd view it so black and white myself. IMO Oliver probably realized he had feelings for Felicity but I don't know if he believed or accepted that he was in love with her. I saw that as a gradual process throughout s2. 

 

As for the worry about going back to GA/BC romantically, I understand that fear and have some concern myself, particularly because the EP's have proven that they have no qualms in destroying things because comics! Sara's death was a perfect example of that. So I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they break up O/F at some point and maybe try O/L again. I'm already getting some Dawson's Creek Pacey/Joey feels/mirroring after Olicity drove off into the sunset at the end of the season, much like Pacey/Joey sailed away on the boat and left everything behind for the summer, and even then they broke up a year later. The only consolation is that Dawson/Joey never worked and Joey ended up with Pacey anyway, so maybe that's what they plan to do here? It could also link into DR saying how Diggle's relationship with Lyla is where Oliver will be in a few years and we all know that those two failed to make it work the first time around but succeeded eventually. Maybe that's their plan. I don't know. As I said, nothing would surprise me, especially if this show goes beyond 5 seasons.

 

That said, I really struggle to see how they'd achieve that without destroying or killing off Felicity tbh. I think it was a review from examiner.com which said that they've passed the point of no return with regards to Oliver's romantic life and I 100% agree. Everything they've done with Olicity this season and beyond has cemented them as the main love story of the show and I think they'd be hard pressed to backtrack on that for the sake of comic book canon. I honestly can't see Oliver ever respecting, admiring or even looking at Laurel the way he does with Felicity. I try to imagine it and it's beyond me. I guess time will tell though.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Angel12d

[ostentatious]

Yeah, there's no walking this thing back.

 

If EBR decided not to re-sign when her contract is up, then I believe they'd bring in someone else before they'd go with Laurel. That thing is dead, dead. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah, there's no walking this thing back.

 

If EBR decided not to re-sign when her contract is up, then I believe they'd bring in someone else before they'd go with Laurel. That thing is dead, dead. 

 

Whenever folks say "they will probably try Laurel again" the immediate response that pops in my head is "but they still won't have chemistry!" They can try and make Laurel as appealing as possible but if your leading man throws off these "i can't even" vibes, then *shrugs* Stephen Amell has been improving by leaps and bounds as an actor. Maybe by the fifth season he can make Oliver believably appear like he gives an actual damn about Laurel.

 

^^I'm with you. I think they'll try go with other pairings before they go with Laurel as the romantic foil again. Maybe bring Huntress back or even McKenna, if the actresses are available.

 

Oh, and contracts-wise, I think EBR is sealed up tighter than a drum. When they signed her on as a regular, they already knew they were going to position her as the love interest. I don't think they're taking any chances so she probably has the same contract length as SA. The only wrinkle is if the show lasts longer than expected 5-6 years. But I'm thinking SA is not going to stay longer than that.

Edited May 18, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[dtissagirl]

Not that I believe it's what's gonna happen, but the only way I can maaaybe see them going back to Laurel/Oliver is if it happens in the last 10 seconds of the last episode ever, a la HIMYM. There's no possible way Stephen can sell Oliver wanting to be with Laurel for any longer than that.

[AyChihuahua]

They really can't go back to OQ/LL, unless it's maybe the very last episode, because no matter what, those two have no chemistry.  I realize that's just my opinion, but it's a pretty widely-shared opinion.

 

And I'm sorry, but Oliver at least started lusting after and generally digging Felicity before 2.6...the look on his face in the Crucible episode, after she said "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen."  Pure unadulterated lust.  Such an underrated episode (it also had fantastic GA/BC interaction and stunts, especially the weapons switch).

[Starfish35]

All the sudden hate made have to stop going on my tumblr for awhile after that.

Yeah, I'm with Sakura12 on this. I ended up deleting my tumblr after that, just because of the sudden influx of raging screaming hate in the Sara Lance tag. You couldn't get away from it. I've never gone back. There are certain people's pages I check, but I've never gotten another account of my own.

I wanted to see the Lance Family talk about Sara's return, I wanted to see Sara reunite with her mother who refused to give up on her. The way they showed it, Dinah was like "yay! you're back. Goodbye."

Yeah they really dropped the ball with Sara and Dinah. They dropped the ball with Dinah period, actually. For whatever reason, they have never used that character like she should have been used.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

I was an Olicity shipper then (am at most a residual Olicity shipper now, her interactions with Ray and Oliver's stupidity really took the shine off that relationship for me), and Oliver being with Sara didn't bother me at all.  In part because I adore Sara, but also it really made a great deal of sense for him to want to be with someone comfortable and, relatively speaking, safe.  He had a lot more to lose with Felicity than with Sara, and he wasn't ready to take that chance.

 

Also, again, Sara's frigging awesome.  If only they'd kill off Ray in LoT's opening moments, so I could watch it.

[Sakura12]

That's how I saw the Sara and Oliver relationship. At that time they needed something familiar, something safe. Neither of them were in love with the other. They were a comfort to each other. They had someone that understood the traumas they went through. Having someone that understood and not have to hide things from was huge for them. That made them not think of anyone else's feelings

 

I know others saw it differently, but when Oliver asked Sara to get a place with him to me she looked shocked as in "what?, We are not even close to being there or are even in love with each other".  That's why Sara broke up with him, he wanted her to move in and continue the charade and she knew he needed someone else, he needed something real. As Caity said at City of Heroes, Sara would be happy for Oliver and Felicity. She knows that Felicity as that light that Oliver needs to keep him out of the darkness. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

I didn't mind Oliver/Sara even though I love Oliver/Felicity. I simply knew it wasn't a relationship that could've lasted and I knew the lunge came from a place where both characters needed some comfort and human interaction. Plus I felt like Oliver definitely wasn't ready to acknowledge his feelings towards Felicity so why not. I wasn't on tumblr back then, but it seems as though anyone who gets in the way of O/F seems to get hated on a LOT. Ray, Sara... Well Ray was more justifiable considering he was just a really bad character, but I never understood the Sara hate. 

 

What I didn't like regarding the Lances was that it took over a lot of season 2B (minus the last 3 episodes). I wasn't interested in their family drama, and I'd rather have preferred Sara spending more time with Digg/Felicity instead of have her appearance sort of push them into the background. IDK I guess that's how I felt about that. I just wanted a better balance. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, my reasons for hating Ray are all about Ray, not about O/F.  I found him super condescending, creepy, and hypocritical from his first appearance.  The fact that Felicity wanted to be with him and (IMO, YMMV) flaunted it in front of Oliver is a large part of why I am not really an Olicity shipper any more.  Whereas I not only understood Oliver's reasons for wanting to be with Sara, I love her, so him being with her didn't make me think less of him.  They might have done a little better with Ray in the last couple episodes, but for me it was too late. 

[Chaser]

One thing I'm really looking forward to about the spin-off, is the chance to see Sara interact with Felicity. I thought they started to set-up a real friendship and then just...left it there. I would love another Team Arrow crossover with LOT, like the one with the Flash.

[Sakura12]

Oliver and Sara being together while not the right choice had a history of being together before and a history on the island that no one knew about.  That helped make it a bit more understandable that they'd be drawn together again. 

 

I wouldn't have minded Felicity dating someone else because Oliver was being his usual dumbass self pitying self and was probably still reeling from the 4th death of Sara.

 

However they didn't really give Ray and Felicity a reason to want to be together besides (from I gathered from youtube videos) superficial reasons. Ray's a good looking, genius billionaire. Felicity should like him on those merits alone. They offered him as a better version of Oliver. Then preceded to make Felicity his love interest instead of the other way around. That was not giving Felicity a relationship like Oliver had with Sara. Sara and Oliver had a reason to be together, they could never make us understand why Felicity and Ray started a relationship other than they needed Ray to take off so they could make a spin off. 

[wonderwall]

Oliver and Sara being together while not the right choice had a history of being together before and a history on the island that no one knew about.  That helped make it a bit more understandable that they'd be drawn together again. 

 

I wouldn't have minded Felicity dating someone else because Oliver was being his usual dumbass self pitying self and was probably still reeling from the 4th death of Sara.

 

However they didn't really give Ray and Felicity a reason to want to be together besides (from I gathered from youtube videos) superficial reasons. Ray's a good looking, genius billionaire. Felicity should like him on those merits alone. They offered him as a better version of Oliver. Then preceded to make Felicity his love interest instead of the other way around. That was not giving Felicity a relationship like Oliver had with Sara. Sara and Oliver had a reason to be together, they could never make us understand why Felicity and Ray started a relationship other than they needed Ray to take off so they could make a spin off. 

I totally get what you're saying but there's a key difference here. Sara and Oliver happened before Oliver and Felicity acknowledged any feelings they had for one another, Ray and Felicity happened after they did. I think Felicity jumped into the relationship with both feet in and when Oliver told her he couldn't be with her it left her reeling and in dire need to move on whereas Oliver didn't have that need with Sara, he just needed comfort.

 

I think Ray was Felicity's desperate attempt to move on so she latched onto the superficial things in hopes to finally get rid of Oliver from her mind which, even in the thick of their relationship during the flash crossover in episode 18 of the Flash, she couldn't. I think the point of Ray was to show that even though Ray is perfect and perfect for Felicity, he doesn't hold a candle to Oliver regardless of how messed up he is.

 

On paper that seems great, but it lacked in execution. 

[statsgirl]

I think for Felicity, Ray was about "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".  He valued her and he was a good guy, not to mention rich and handsome. It's too bad the writing for them messed it up, with the impression of stalking and the trying too hard to make them a couple.  And especially because every time Felicity got closer to Ray it was because Oliver had just pushed her away again so Raylicity was about Oliver rather than about Felicity herself.

 

With Sara and Oliver, I didn't like that they got together because I was shipping Oliver/Felicity and it seemed like the only reason they did Oliver/Sara was to stall Olicity, and also because made the show seem like the Oliver/Sara Hour, with Oliver, Sara and Slade in all the flashbacks, Oliver, Sara and Slade the main story in the present, and Oliver sleeping with Sara.  It even was Sara who went out with Oliver to fight crime rather than Diggle.

 

Also I hated the PDAs between Oliver and Sara in front of Felicity.  That really was back to pre-island Ollie, who didn't care who he hurt as long as he got what he wanted.  In this case, sex and pushing Felicity away.

 

In the end, I wish they had spent more time on Oliver and Sara's relationship in terms of their feelings about each other. It seems now that for both of them, it wasn't just unfinished business which is what I thought at first, or Friends With Benefits, but also for Sara that she couldn't be with the one she loved because of all that Assassins and killing stuff so she tried to make it happen with Oliver.  It might have worked for her but I guess Oliver picked her to sleep with because he didn't have to be truly available for her and it  crashed and burned.  Hopefully Sara got out before her heart was too broken. .

[AyChihuahua]

"I think the point of Ray was to show that even though Ray is perfect and perfect for Felicity, he doesn't hold a candle to Oliver regardless of how messed up he is."

 

That's why it didn't work for me, at all.  Ray is gross.  He was gross from the beginning and he was gross when they started dating and he was gross when they kept dating.  He was particularly gross when he condescended to her about his IQ and didn't tell her the suit was working, while claiming he had always been honest, and condescended to Laurel about her poor female brain not working right, and he was incredibly gross when he very nearly killed Roy, who showed up in response to Ray's fake 911 call because Roy wanted to help people.  I have read lots of fanfics in which Felicity not only dates but actually ends up with other guys, and when the other guy is well-written (Captain America and Dick Grayson spring to mind), I'm all for it.  But Ray was just icky, so whatever her reasons, rebound, looking for comfort, desperately trying to get over Oliver, whatever, none of them worked for me, simply because I found Ray to be utterly and totally lacking in positive attributes, but everyone in the show behaved as if he was just peachy.  I even would have been okay if they'd had her obviously rebounding with some guy who was acknowledged in-show to be way beneath her, like DJ Turn Down For What or some such, but they did play it like Ray was perfect, she behaved like Ray was perfect, and it made me really, really question her judgment.

Edited May 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

"I think the point of Ray was to show that even though Ray is perfect and perfect for Felicity, he doesn't hold a candle to Oliver regardless of how messed up he is."

 

That's why it didn't work for me, at all.  Ray is gross.  He was gross from the beginning and he was gross when they started dating and he was gross when they kept dating.

 

See that's where the execution failed. Ray was supposed to be perfect, but he was just a terrible character. If Ray was a better character I think it would've worked better. Also the writers sort of overcompensated by constantly telling the audience just how perfect Ray was and how not-creepy everything he did was. It was like they were trying to convince the audience that he wasn't creepy and was the epitome of perfect when in fact it was just not true. 

 

Coincidentally, Ray got a lot better when he wasn't on Palmer Island. I feel like the show marooning him and Felicity on that island also created a lot of issues with this relationship. 

 

So much went wrong with this love triangle... 

Edited May 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

"See that's where the execution failed."

 

For me, the execution failed so badly that the concept was meaningless.  It failed so badly that I not only hate Ray, I think quite a bit less of Felicity for having been with Ray.  And while I agree that the writing for him improved once he started positively interacting with other characters, I have an extremely good memory, and hated him right down to his very last moment on the show, and really hope he'll be killed off on the spinoff.

 

On the plus side, no Ra's/Ray/Roy issues next season!  Funny, they went from three similar names to zero (although I am sure at least Ray and Roy will make guest appearances...I'm not buying, at all, that Ra's will be back in present day, unless it's a hallucination or a dream). 

[Sunshine]

I have to wonder how many of the S3 Felicity deleted scenes involve Ray.  I was never a fan (don't care for BR) but I wonder if there are some deleted scenes out there that might have made their relationship make more sense.

 

IMO, the love triangle was never Oliver/Felicity/Ray.  It was Arrow/Oliver/Felicity.  Felicity kept choosing Oliver even after she slept with Ray.  The only time she didn't choose Oliver was when she thought he was gone forever.  Tatsu had to change her mind.  Oliver chose the Arrow right up until 3.23.  At the end he chose Felicity.  

[hogwash]

Count me in the “Ray/Felicity never felt like more than a badly executed stall for Oliver/Felicity” camp. Ray/Felicity didn't stand a chance of being taken seriously as far as I was concerned but it could have been interesting to watch. I was actually cool with the inevitablity of it until that episode where Felicity teared up talking about how amazing Ray was (I think I asked in the episode thread, but what the crap was that?! I still don't understand or care). UGH. I actually went into the arrow wikia to check what episode Sara/Oliver broke up just so I would have a timetable...

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this before S03 premiered but after the Slade ruse I needed a pretty compelling reason for me to buy Oliver/Felicity deciding not to pursue a romantic relationship. He literally put her in the line of fire of his worst enemy. She agreed to it and it worked wonderfully. Feelings were (mostly) revealed. This wasn't a situation where a timely lunge could work. Or a 207 “no us because the life I/we lead” speech. And that's exactly what we got. 

 

Plus, Ray Palmer was a creepy dud and Felicity was not...good when she was with him. What the hell was their dynamic even? Put Felicity in a room with Barry, Harrison Wells, Merlyn (Tommy or Malcolm), or even Iris West and I have a pretty good idea of what they would say to each other or how they would interact. Depending on the circumstances, of course. Put Laurel or Ray (especially, early S03!Ray) in that room and I got nothing. It was whatever the show wanted Felicity to be or say.

 

I still can't believe Sara was murdered and Diggle and Felicity never freaking talked about it. And then the show had the nerve to twist itself like a pretzel to have Ray to be the one to console her. Honestly, I'm still wondering what great story opportunities throwing Sara off a building gave the show. Maybe they were talking about the ~super compelling~ whodunit or SPOILER ALERT the upcoming S04 episode where they use the Lazurus Pit to give every main and recurring Flarrowverse character a chance to murder Malcolm Merlyn.

Edited May 18, 2015 by hogwash

[AyChihuahua]

 

IMO, the love triangle was never Oliver/Felicity/Ray.  It was Arrow/Oliver/Felicity.  Felicity kept choosing Oliver even after she slept with Ray. 

Metaphorically, sure.  But she was actually banging/dating Ray, so he was in there somewhere.

[wonderwall]

I think the season would've been better off without R/F. Felicity definitely would've benefited from it. I would rather they have been friends and nothing more because literally nothing came from the love triangle and it only hurt the characters involved, especially Felicity. 

 

Can you imagine what would've happened if they didn't get involved? O/F would still be on the outs after episode 15, but in episode 16 they would've grown closer. Episode 17 could've still had some conflict as Felicity supported Ray and his endeavors but also chewed him out on being an asshole. Episode 18 Felicity could've been at the hospital but could've gone back and forth from it trying to help Oliver and the team. Episode 19 could've stayed the same. Episode 20+ could've stayed the same.

 

Literally this whole love triangle just hurt Felicity's character and made her look really wishy washy and made us side eye her when she went back to Ray in episode 17. I hate that they did that to her. 

[ostentatious]

Watching Oliver with Barry really highlighted to me that the big problem with Ray was that he wasn't given a relationship with Oliver.

 

I know how Barry and Oliver will react to each other. Oliver and Barry have the primary relationship, Barry and Felicity really secondary. Doesn't mean it isn't close, just means that - as is appropriate for the lead - greater attention was given to asking, what does Barry mean to Oliver? How does he affect him? than to Barry/Felicity.

 

Ray's primary relationship should've been with Oliver. It doesn't mean he couldn't date Felicity, but by having no interest in what Ray meant to Oliver other than "steal yo girl," it means there's nothing between them at all. Ray didn't affect Oliver, Ray and Oliver don't have anything to work on, to strengthen, to jeopardize. Felicity thought about their similarities and differences, that was a mental process she was given, but *OLIVER* should've had that mental process. HIS psychology should've been attended to. That was more important than ever showing the guy dating Felicity. 

 

I mean, I don't know how you accomplish it...it feels more like he should've been around him all season rather than just midseason...but at the very least Ray should've been on the team when Oliver returned so they could interact. I would prefer engineering a reason why Oliver wasn't completely cast aside from QC/PT once Ray took over. Maybe Ray also felt strongly that the appearance of continuity between the old guard and the new was crucial for the venture to inspire idk, trust, nostalgia wtfever make it up idgaf, in the populace. Some reason for them to exist in each other's sphere and react to each other. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by ostentatious

[AyChihuahua]

He could have just gotten Oliver a spot on the board of directors.  That would have been realistic and given them a reason to interact.  Being on a board isn't a huge time suck, but at least they would have had a reason for Oliver to drop by occasionally, plus kept Oliver somewhat tied to the actual world.  Isolating him from everything non-Arrow was such a mistake.

[kismet]

Glad to see SA canon headspace regarding the start of OQ's feelings for FS is the same as my canon headspace. I'm pretty sure it went along with the writers plan, but he definitely was playing his role (with or without their blessing) as if there were more than friendship feelings developing between him and FS in early s2 that then progressed until the big mansion reveal. I will say though that I do not think OQ was fully aware of the depths of his feelings or the fact that he could not run away from them until the last 3 episodes of s2. Although I think he got a pretty good jolt of it after Vertigo incident.

 

He probably acknowledged the feelings and then tried to compartimentalize them when he was unsure what to do with them. He tried to hide them under other a multitude of excuses/rationalizations like the "because of the life I lead" philosophy or other relationships like Barry, Isabel & Sara.  I know he cared about Sara, but I seriously think that relationship was primarily for comfort & familiarity and secondly a trial run to see how a relationship would work with OQ/Arrow. IMO, he never intended to take that relationship to the next level. If Sara had not broken it off, I'm sure he would have strung her along for as long as she would allow. Part of me sorta wonders what it would have been like for OQ to be with SL at the same time as FS is with RP, that would have been some interesting romantic do-se-do. Although, I don't think I'd actually want to see it on my TV, just imagine the tension in my head.

[BkWurm1]

We've been repeatedly told that Sara was not the real Black Canary despite being given all of the comic BC's skills and traits and now even the dip in the Lazarus Pit. She was just the replacement for the second rate Black Canary to take her place. 

 

I wouldn't put it past the EP's to want to show the REAL Black Canary, Dinah Laurel Lance with Oliver Queen's Green Arrow if they run past five seasons. 

Barring killing Felicity which I think would be a show killer if it stuck, I think the only way they could pull off a return to something between Oliver and Laurel is some kind of brainwash/memory loss trauma.  That or some tmey whimey craziness.  I actually would be surprised assuming LoT does well) if we didn't have at least a one off episode crossover event thing that shows an alternate timeline where Oliver is with Laurel.  

 

But to do it so that in any natural or real way would take MAJOR character assassination against both Oliver, Felicity AND Laurel since her ever wanting to be with THAT guy again would be a major slap in her face.  

 

I could see them finding some reason to push Oliver and Felicity apart for a time because of PLOT but I can't believe they would try to sell either of them falling out of love with the other.   And that said, I can't see them pulling any kind of deep angst with Oliver and Felicty in next season. 

 

TPTB have to know their audience is beyond weary of that particular bit of  relationship drama and taking away what they just invested an entire season in establishing would not only send the shippers up in arms but even the anti Olicity contingent since the show having made Olicity that important to Oliver's existence, would have to deal with the undoing of Olicity and all the fallout and yeah, that translates in going down the rabbit hole again.   So I'm not going to worry about it for the near future. 

 

Oliver and Barry have the primary relationship, Barry and Felicity really secondary.

 

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure I technically agree.  I think Barry and Felicity were established as the primary relationship and that only over time have Oliver and Barry built up to their now existing closeness, the new relationship only triggered because Barry got powers that he could use for crime fighting.  Had he not, I don't think Oliver would have ended up with a separate relationship with Barry.

 

So by that standard, Felicity + Barry came first and are thus primary  BUT I think Barry was introduced in a manner that first  filtered everything about Barry - including his instant connection to Felicity - through Oliver's viewpoint of Barry.  That's not what happened with Ray, everything was filtered first and almost ONLY through Felicity and that didn't make either character terribly interesting in the long run.  It took them way too long to connect him to Oliver as anything other than a vague "oh that dude". 

 

We got a taste of it during the board meeting intervention and a tiny glimpse when Oliver watched Queen Consolidated get turned into Palmer Tech but we were never let into to what Oliver was thinking enough for us to think he even really cared about Palmer.  He was a non entity until he became a romantic rival and even then the biggest rival to Felicity's affections was still Oliver himself, make Ray again that much less important. 

 

I so agree with everyone that said Oliver should have kept a hand in the company in some capacity - even if it was only for the early part of the season before he then dropped it as he tried to retreat more and more away from anything Oliver Queen.  Having no relationship with Ray outside of Felicity undermined everything about Ray since he didn't matter to the most important character on the show.  

[statsgirl]

I think Barry/Felicity was the first relationship, but over the course of both shows, Oliver/Barry is more primary.  Felicity helps organize Team Flash but it's to Oliver that Barry goes when he's got a problem or needs help, not Felicity.

 

I definitely think that Ray and Oliver should have interacted more and earlier this season but Ray's primary relationship should have been Felicity because it doesn't make sense for it to be Oliver. Oliver gave up on QC, with reason so that he could devote the season to being The Arrow so it doesn't make sense that he would have accepted a seat on the QC later PT board.  Doesn't really make sense for Ray to have offered it to him because you don't offer a seat to the guy who wanted the company that you got  and there were people still at QC if he needed a sense of its history.

 

Maybe Ray could have needed Oliver's help in Queen business that wasn't about QC, or for fundraising like Sebastian Blood did because Oliver knew the Starling City elite and Ray didn't yet.  But they really should have had Oliver and Ray interact more -- it would have strengthened the 'compare and contrast' and made Felicity's dilemma more real.

[AyChihuahua]

I think Barry/Felicity was the first relationship, but over the course of both shows, Oliver/Barry is more primary.  Felicity helps organize Team Flash but it's to Oliver that Barry goes when he's got a problem or needs help, not Felicity.

 

I definitely think that Ray and Oliver should have interacted more and earlier this season but Ray's primary relationship should have been Felicity because it doesn't make sense for it to be Oliver. Oliver gave up on QC, with reason so that he could devote the season to being The Arrow so it doesn't make sense that he would have accepted a seat on the QC later PT board.  Doesn't really make sense for Ray to have offered it to him because you don't offer a seat to the guy who wanted the company that you got  and there were people still at QC if he needed a sense of its history.

Oh, I got that giving up on QC was part of the "identity" theme of the season.  I just frigging HATED that theme.  And having him cut off from regular life (they didn't even go to Big Belly Burger) was part of what made the season so boring.  And honestly, the third season seems kind of late to me for the hero to be having identity issues.  It's more a first or second season issue, and it was actually touched on and seemingly resolved in S2.  Buffy kind of did it in S6, but that was a special case since she died and went to heaven and then got yanked back.

 

Re being on the board, it wouldn't be so strange, bc QC had been a family business, more or less.  Walter Steele would have made more sense than Oliver, but they pretty much ditched Walter, unfortunately.  In his absence, it wouldn't be that strange for him to keep a hand in by being on the board in this particular situation.

Edited May 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

The Ray/Felicity/Oliver Triangle was ill conceived, poorly written and never really executed well. There was never a time when the triangle to me was a viable triangle or worth the time they spent on it. Palmer Island hurt both Ray & Felicity as characters & story arc wise. There was a million other ways they could have brought Ray onto the show. Ray was questionable as a character in the beginning. Its only in recent episodes that I have seen him a likable. Honestly, I never enjoyed their chemistry until they were only friends. I know people disagree & think they were perfect for each other. But IMO, both in real life & on paper I don't see their personalities compatible. Buts its done, so thank goodness for that.

 

The Sara/Oliver relationship never felt like part of a triangle & maybe that is why although the pairing was not my favorite I never had a problem with it. In real life and on paper the relationship made sense between Sara & Oliver. I do think that after present-day Sara relationship though there is no way Oliver can return to Laurel. Which brings me to my last point....

 

The only way I can see Laurel & Oliver ever being together romantically is in an alternative universe either via dreams/drugs/time travel. But even that would only be a temporary relationship for the episode.  And it honestly, has nothing to do with Oliver & Felicity. There is just too much emotional damage & baggage in Laurel/Oliver pairing. Even if the show goes on for 10+ years, I will have a hard time believing that Laurel/Oliver would ever want to be with each other. Fight each other, yes. Fight crime together, yes. Be with each other, no.

Edited May 19, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

I think Oliver's reaction to Barry, to his flirtation with Felicity, to Barry being let in on TA secrets, was the most important aspect of Barry's first two Arrow eps. So I do think they're the primary relationship, yeah. Their dynamic is what has changed and grown. Their relationship had a place to go because of that. Ray and Oliver have nothing, have no place to go. They might as well never have met.

[BkWurm1]

 Oliver gave up on QC, with reason so that he could devote the season to being The Arrow so it doesn't make sense that he would have accepted a seat on the QC later PT board.  Doesn't really make sense for Ray to have offered it to him because you don't offer a seat to the guy who wanted the company that you got  and there were people still at QC if he needed a sense of its history.

 

Maybe Ray could have needed Oliver's help in Queen business that wasn't about QC, or for fundraising like Sebastian Blood did because Oliver knew the Starling City elite and Ray didn't yet.  But they really should have had Oliver and Ray interact more -- it would have strengthened the 'compare and contrast' and made Felicity's dilemma more real.

 

I think like a lot of other storylines this season, the timing was off with Oliver choosing to be Arrow all the time.  Just as I think it would have worked better if Felicity and Oliver's new flirty dynamic had longer to breath and the same with Laurel and Sara's new (I guess) super sisterly bond.  I think Oliver should have moved a bit slower to the realization that he needed to only be the Arrow because as the way it played out, Oliver's the closest he's been in 7 years to being happy and finding more out of life and with the snap of a finger (or the blowing up of an Italian restaurant) he turns on a dime.

 

I understand what they were doing with piling on the loss of his company and then the loss of Sara after he had given up Felicity, it's a let's take everything...but his reaction to losing the parts of him that he considered Oliver Queen was to go get the thing that MOST defined him as Oliver Queen, go bring Thea home.  It to me was at odds with him claiming he had to only be the Arrow. 

 

I look at the season and wonder if they got the moving parts right, but just not in the right ratio or even order.  Perhaps what should happened was early in the season while Oliver was happy, that he goes and brings Thea home.  In the background, he and Felicity would be their extra flirty selves, dancing around these unspoken feelings while planning his recovery of his company and also going on, normal Arrow stuff. We would have to push back baby Sara but that was a flexible storyline ( Laurel could be bonding with Sara and training because it helps her addiction issues.)  

 

Then one by one, Oliver would begin losing things.  Maybe even in the first episode he still looses his company, Ray swoops in and takes control but he reasons maybe it is for the best and urges Felicity to accept the Palmer job offer.  The company is a loss but he brings Thea home in episode two.  By episode three he finds out about Thea and Malcolm.  It's a gut punch but he doesn't want to lose his sister and he struggles to go on, but at least his relationship with Felicity is good, they make their date.  Episode four they have their date,  but it blows up and before he can sort out his head, Sara dies and everything is too much and he blames his life falling apart on not focusing  and rejects Felicity cause he thinks he missed something so he proclaims he can only be the Arrow.

 

Season three, when you step back and look at it, had some really interesting ideas but we waded into the darkness too soon and then just stood there treading water without really furthering the story.  The stupid prophecy took way too much time to set up.   Too much time was wasted between Sara's death and the team finding out the truth.  Ray was isolated too long (he's a smart guy, couldn't they have used him long before he got the suit running?)  And by the end of the season the show runners complained they ran out of time to do the Al Sa Him story justice.  Instead of building to their story naturally, they served it up cold and only then tried to sell the emotions by making Felicity cry all the time.  They made their jobs harder than it had to be. 

I think Oliver's reaction to Barry, to his flirtation with Felicity, to Barry being let in on TA secrets, was the most important aspect of Barry's first two Arrow eps. So I do think they're the primary relationship, yeah. Their dynamic is what has changed and grown. Their relationship had a place to go because of that. Ray and Oliver have nothing, have no place to go. They might as well never have met.

I can see it from that viewpoint. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by BkWurm1