Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

What's a little drugging between friends?

 

I have zero problem with her drugging him, because he was not actually making a choice to join the LOA.  I mean, it was a stupid plan, but I'm glad she tried.  It would be different if he'd joined back in episode 16.  He'd have been a total moron (even more than he already is), I would want them all to cut him off forever, and the show would be over.  But joining because Ra's stabbed Thea and effectively killed her, then offered the LP...not actually a choice.  Unless a bank teller handing over cash after the robber shoots a couple customers is also a "choice."

Edited May 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[steeledwithakiss]

I think the way Thea was kidnapped was for two reasons first the stupidity of the writers who couldn't think of anything smarter and Oliver. He said in 3x16 I think Roy was keeping an eye on Thea, we knew Diggle had doubled the security for Moira and Sara was supposedly taking care of LL/QL. Who was Oliver really worried for? Sara who I repeat is the only person who was trained by the LOA and knew how to take care of herself. Then he told Roy to break up with her and then Oliver left her go home alone by herself at night. Slade was still at large but no biggie I'll let my little sister roam the streets, the Glades I might add, alone at night. It would have gone a long way seeing Oliver worried for his family during that time, just one scene really after having Slade at this house chatting with his mother and his sister.

 

Oliver being dismissive of Felicity: I'm sorry but yes he was a jerk to her in TOD and he didn't think of sending anyone to keep an eye on her, Diggle was the only one worried. I would have not liked Oliver taking care of her at all, he should have been with his family, but sending someone at her house would have been nice.

 

I don't think Sara is responsible for the way Oliver acted on those episodes. He's the one to blame. Just as he's the one to blame for cheating all the time on Laurel (exept for that one time it was actually with Sara he was doing the cheating, they were both being selfish assholes). But no one can deny those two are pretty selfish when they are together, the way they showed up together at Laurel's for one. I don't even like Laurel but that was a horrible thing to do no matter how you look at it.

 

I don't think forcing Thea to live with Malcolm is selfish, it's stupid and doesn't make sense like everything to do with Malcolm in s3 again because of the writers, but ultimately he's working with Malcolm to save her. And she knows that. Ra's was going to come for them one day and it was, according to the writers, the only way to beat him.

 

As for Felicity drugging Oliver I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I really liked that scene. Felicity was fighting for Oliver, just like Roy in 3x19, because Oliver will never do it himself. Leaving NP meant living on the run for probably the rest of their lives. How could Oliver ask that from anyone on the Team? When Diggle agreed to the crazy plan he was basically ready to do that. He even asked again Oliver to reconsider when they got closer to the plane. He was all in. Thea might have been out of it but anyone could see how it was killing her in 3x21 knowing her brother has sacrificed his life again, for her. She would have rather died. It's safe to say she would prefer going on the run with him than live with that horrible guilt. And she knows it all started because she followed her father the terrorist so she already feels horrible about everything that happened already. Was Felicity being selfish? Yes because she was doing this so she would not lose the man she loves but No because it also meant living on the run for the rest of her life. That's a huge sacrifice.

Edited May 4, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[ostentatious]

Since we're talking about how show Oliver/Laurel/Loliver are absolutely nothing like their comics versions, here's a panel someone put up on Tumblr that says a lot:

http://ust.chatango.com/um/t/h/thecatbastet/img/l_22.jpg

Now, that's a cute dynamic! But it could not be less like the show. He is nothing like that Oliver. She is nothing like Dinah. They could NEVER be shoved into that dynamic. Oliver may get "green" added on to his moniker, but he is still not going to be anything at all like that guy.

And tbqh, it wouldn't have worked. They needed Bruce Lite, because that's the guy who anchors your universe. Comics Oliver can be what he is because he isn't the anchor of that universe. He's a sideline snarker.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ostentatious

[Guest]

The Olicity relationship should be able to stand on its own without having to rewrite history to make all his other relationships look unhealthy and subtly pushing the blame for Oliver's mistakes on the other women in his life, especially when he's made more horrific, selfish choices this season while being in love with Felicity. He's "putting the mission first" and all that but he's done disgusting things like manipulating his sister into spending time with the man who brainwashed her into killing a friend all so he can learn how to one-up the guy who beat him in a previous fight. To say nothing of how selfish Felicity's been. Her total disregard for Thea and her gross drugging of Oliver in "The Fallen," the latter of which, let's face it, would have never been received as cute and romantic and understandable if the genders were reversed or if it was literally any other woman on this show doing it to someone they claim to care about, is the epitome of selfish.

 

I don't think anyone is rewriting Oliver's relationship history. He loved Laurel once. He loved Shado. He cared about Sara. Now he's in love with Felicity. Where's the rewrite? Have I missed something?

 

I don't think anyone thought Felicity drugging Oliver was cute or romantic, not that I've seen. Personally it took the shine off their love scene for a moment but I think I'd have more issue with it if Oliver had an issue with it. He didn't so I accepted it too. It wasn't great and it was selfish but what the hell is wrong with that? Why can't Felicity make selfish choices and mistakes? She is human. She's allowed. I just think it showed the depth of her devastation at losing the man she loves and how absolutely desperate she was to do something about it. Not ideal, no, but then not much on this show is nowadays.

 

So I agree with you there, to an extent. But I don't understand what you mean by Felicity's disregard for Thea at all. 

[apinknightmare]

I have zero problem with her drugging him, because he was not actually making a choice to join the LOA.  

 

Right? He was being his typical defeatist self and could not be reasoned with to leave voluntarily, but it's not like he wanted to stay. Same situation when she and Diggle tranqed him while he was giving his waterside soliloquy to who he thought was Slade. He didn't want to turn himself over, but didn't see any other choice. The most problematic drugging on this show was poor Barry who was just trying to get back to Central City so he didn't lose his job. And because he went back late he ENDED UP GETTING HIT BY LIGHTENING. No one bats an eyelash at that one.

[ostentatious]

Yeah, I have had more than one boyfriend in my life. I'm not married to the first guy I dated. Did I retcon my life?

[wonderwall]

I was having a conversation with a friend about the whole drugging thing and why I was okay with it and why I don't think it tainted the whole sex scene. My friend thought it was taking away Oliver's agency and that she didn't like it and here was my response (disclaimer: We're both TV buffs and love to analyze stuff which is kind of telling with my response :p):

 

First of all, I’d like to preface this by saying that I don’t agree with Felicity’s decisions in this episode whatsoever nor do I think her actions were romantic. It wasn’t romantic. I actually would love to break it down by seeing her actions from both Oliver’s and Felicity’s perspective.

 

Felicity:

I honestly don’t think that Felicity went into Oliver’s room with a plan in her mind which is why that scene wasn’t tainted for me. I think that Ra’s’ words affected her to the point that she could see that threatening Ra’s and fighting every step of the way wasn’t going to stop the fact that in the end, she’s going to have to say goodbye to Oliver. And I don’t think she could say goodbye to him without telling him how she feels. She knows she’d regret it if she didn’t. And from Ra’s’ words, she knows that this may be their final goodbye.

 

Then Felicity walks into Oliver’s room and opens her heart to him and gives him everything that she is and everything she’s been holding back and he gives her the same in return. This was the first time both of them experienced what it would be like to be with one another. After they had sex, I feel like this is when Felicity came up with the hasty plan because after being with him, I don’t think she could fathom ever NOT being with him. And then she literally freaked out. But this is my personal theory. I could definitely be wrong.

 

Felicity knows Oliver to the core, she said it herself multiple times. She knows that he wouldn’t get on that jet with her because it would be too risky. It would make Ra’s rain hell upon everyone. But I don’t think Felicity was thinking about that. I think Felicity was taking it one step at a time and figured they would stop Ra’s when the time came. She’s naive that way. 

 

Because Felicity knows Oliver to his core and knows that he wouldn’t risk it, she drugged him. And judging by how she acted when she did, it seemed like she was freaking out and internally going “what in the world did I do?”. But that’s just me fanwanking, I suppose. I’m guessing that’s what EBR was going for? Otherwise she wouldn’t have been freaking out. Now all of this was done through desperation and selfishness. She couldn’t lose him.

 

This may sound weird, but after so many episodes of Felicity being stripped of her agency, I was glad to see that she took initiative in this episode and finally took action. Felicity had been far too complacent and passive about everything ever since episode 11 especially when Ray was involved (eugh. I hated the Felicity we saw when she was with Ray. She was literally a different person).

 

Now we get down to the real mess of the issue. Did Felicity take away Oliver’s choice? At first I thought that for a woman who gets pissed off when others don’t let her make her own decisions, her actions seemed a little perplexing. Then I sort of started wondering, staying in Nanda Parbat wasn’t Oliver’s choice at all. He had his choice ripped away from him by Ra’s.

 

Quote from friend: Oliver didn’t join a cult and have his ability to make decisions stripped away from him. He weighed the pros and cons and decided that his life was worth the lives of his sister, friends, and the city. That was a choice. Felicity didn’t want to lose him, so she made a really terrible decision and did something she never should have. Just like they shouldn’t have drugged him at the end of last season.

 

Oliver this season has been notorious for making decisions based on emotion especially when it came to saving his sister. He didn’t weigh the pros and cons, he essentially let his emotions make his decisions and didn’t even think about the effects of his actions. When it comes to the women he loves, Oliver tends to have tunnel vision. In my opinion, Oliver saving Thea wasn’t a choice at all. It was a necessity. And Felicity knows this.

 

When Felicity drugged Oliver, he had no agency to be stripped. At least, in my head I don’t think he did. Ra’s played him like a puppet and Oliver fell for it. I think Felicity essentially thought she was making a decision that could benefit everyone the most. She didn’t want Oliver to die again. She didn’t want Oliver to become Ra’s’ puppet. As much as I think that she drugged Oliver because it would destroy her if he stayed (which is selfish), I also thoroughly believe that she also thought it would be best for Oliver to leave Nanda Parbat. In the end, Oliver too, is one of the most important people in her life which is why his safety will always be paramount to her.

 

She made that decision for him because he didn’t have any agency in the matter. Does that make it right? No. But I don’t blame her because in the moment when her judgement was clouded, she let the ends justify the means. And sometimes that’s what matters the most.

 

This isn’t a black and white situation at all, there is no right and wrong in this. It’s sort of like the question “would you kill a few to save many more?”. I just think that Felicity did the best that she could with the resources that she had. What I would’ve disagreed with vehemently would be if Felicity was happy about the decisions she made. Which I don’t think she was. I may be remembering this incorrectly but didn’t she apologize to Oliver about this? I think Felicity knew that her actions were wrong, but she was stuck between a rock and a hard place. But in the end, Felicity went down fighting to save someone she loves (which is essentially what Oliver has been doing for Thea this entire season), and I just really appreciated that.

 

Oliver:

 

Now the question that needs to be answered is, why in the world wasn’t Oliver upset about what Felicity did? I think it’s because he really, really didn’t want to be in that hell hole as much as Felicity didn’t want him to be. I think Oliver wanted to leave, he just couldn’t make that decision because, like I said before, his agency had been stripped by Ra’s. But if it was Oliver’s choice, he’d leave with the people he loves most and never look back.

 

Everyone essentially gave up on Oliver by letting him stay, including himself. But the only person who was actually fighting for him was Felicity. And for that, I think it made him love her more for it because if the roles were reversed, Oliver would never stop fighting for Felicity either. I think he would’ve gone to extreme measures as Felicity had if she were basically committing suicide as well. Oliver didn’t chew her out about her decisions because I think he understood what she was going through.

 

And even if Oliver was upset with Felicity’s decision, I don’t think he would’ve chewed her out on it because he wouldn’t want to leave things between them on a sour note.

 

That being said, I’m glad Diggle called Felicity out. I think he was the perfect person to do so because he could see things objectively even though he wanted Oliver out as much as anyone else.

 

-----

 

Felicity trying to smuggle Oliver out of NP is one of the few selfish things she's done ever since season 1. But that doesn't make Felicity a selfish character. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

He was being his typical defeatist self and could not be reasoned with to leave voluntarily, but it's not like he wanted to stay.

Yeah, the only way that was actually a "choice" is if words don't mean anything.  It would be totally different if he'd agreed to join in 16 and she drugged him then.

 

On another note, the defeatist thing is another thing bugging the shite out of me about him lately (along with the stupidity and seeming weak-mindedness).  It's two season in a row now he's just given up.  I'm tired of it.  Grow a set, dude.  

Edited May 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[ostentatious]

The defeatism is pervasive. "You can't just accept things, Oliver," says Felicity, as Oliver just accepts another thing.

The drugging has to be looked at in the context of the entire show. Kind of like the "stalking" between Ray and Felicity. On another show, like say a srs bzns realistic drama, bad bad bad. On this show, it's simply As One Does.

[tv echo]

Since we're talking about how show Oliver/Laurel/Loliver are absolutely nothing like their comics versions, [...]

As I see it, both the EPs and fans have cherry-picked which elements of the GA and/or BC comics 'canon' they think must be adhered to and which elements they think can be changed (personalities, back stories, families, fighting skills, relationships, sidekicks, nemeses, etc.).  The EPs and various fandoms just disagree as to which elements belong in which group (must-have vs. can-change).

Edited May 5, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

As I see it, both the EPs and fans have cherry-picked which elements of the GA and/or BC comics 'canon' they think must be adhered to and which elements they think can be changed (personalities, back stories, families, fighting skills, relationships, sidekicks, nemeses, etc.).  The EPs and various fandoms just disagree as to which elements belong in which group (must-have vs. can-change).

 

It's selective canon. Like if you want the show to stick to canon, what canon do they mean? Because if they want GA/BC then Roy should have been addicted to drugs and lost his arm and Shado should have raped Oliver and I could go on and on.  Just like those things weren't right for the show, Laurel and Oliver in a romantic relationship isn't right for it either.

[AustenChick]

Also, it's not like this is the first time they drugged Oliver. Remember in last season -- City of Blood? Oliver was planning on giving himself up to Slade and committing suicide, but Dig, Felicity and Laurel decided to tranq him and drag him back to the lair to stop him. Kind of the same situation really. Oliver thought he had no choice, no agency, have given up -- but Dig, Felicity and Laurel wouldn't let him -- even if it meant drugging him.

[steeledwithakiss]

It reminds me of the same debate the TVD fandom had for years when Stephen respected Elena's wishes and saved Matt first. Is it okay to ignore someone's opinion when it comes to life and death? I for one would understand if a mother told you to save her children first in a dangerous situation because they are kids and they should always come first. When it comes to Oliver's rampant suicidal tendencies I'm glad the people who care about him just don't let him give up that easily. Just like Roy and Felicity told him the city needs him and he tends to forget that the people he loves love him too. He's always willing to sacrifice himself for others and never stop to think what it does to the people left to pick up the pieces. It's good that TA always tries to find another way because he thinks his life is not worth much. Typical survivor guilt.

[tv echo]

I just wanted to comment on the complaint that 'Olicity' has ruined season 3 of Arrow...

 

I think that, if Felicity didn't exist on the show, the same story would've played out this season with whomever Oliver's main love interest ended up being.  The EPs have said that this season is about Oliver's identity: whether he can be both Oliver Queen and the Arrow.  They have also clearly equated being Oliver Queen with his ability to have a personal romantic relationship with someone.  (Even when Oliver decided he had to step back from being Oliver Queen and only be the Arrow, he didn't hesitate to be a brother to Thea or a friend to Diggle or a mentor to Roy, so it's only the romantic relationship that's the problem for him as the Arrow, per the EPs.) 

 

Therefore, this season would always have been about Oliver's pain & angst of not being able to be with the woman he loves because of his Arrow identity (whether that woman was Felicity, Laurel, or someone else).  That woman would've had the love triangle with Ray Palmer (or someone else), the good-bye scenes, the crying scenes, the sex scene, etc.  Therefore, it seems like the complaint is not really about Olicity, but about Oliver having romantic relationship issues at all (unless, of course, the complaint is really about Felicity).

Edited May 6, 2015 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

Agreed. If Oliver and Laurel hadn't tanked, we'd see the same beats playing out with her instead of Felicity. There may be an argument for no romance (and I probably wouldn't watch) but Olicity isn't necessarily the problem, in and of itself.

[Chaser]

This season has generally been a mess. Olicity isn't the worse part of it at all (IMO), but it is the most vocal part of the show. Its the easy target.

 

And frankly, it doesn't matter how many people go to comment sections and vent about 'Olicity ruining the show' if they continue to have nights like 3.20. Ratings got a boost and twitter that night was on par or above the freakin' crossover. Loot at SpoilerTV (?) and the ratings and how much traffic went up on the site. Thats what the network cares about.

[statsgirl]

I'm trying to be optimistic (sanguine) and hope that the comments about Olicity ruining the show will be interpreted correctly, as in "the poorly written attempts to keep Oliver and Felicity apart" ruined the show.

 

I think that, if Felicity didn't exist on the show, the same story would've played out this season with whomever Oliver's main love interest ended up being.  The EPs have said that this season is about Oliver's identity: whether he can be both Oliver Queen and the Arrow.  They have also clearly equated being Oliver Queen with his ability to have a personal romantic relationship with someone.  (Even when Oliver decided he had to step back from being Oliver Queen and only be the Arrow, he didn't hesitate to be a brother to Thea or a friend to Diggle or a mentor to Roy, so it's only the romantic relationship that's the problem for him as the Arrow, per the EPs.)

They may not have had Raylicity though, and that was something that didn't do the show any favors.  If it were still KC playing the love interest, they  might not have put her with BR.  One of the reasons we got Raylicity was because they thought EBR's chemistry would rub off on anyone.  It still may, it just doesn't manage with bad writing.  I'm kind of interested to see Ray/Felicity scenes now that they are no longer a (cringe-worthy) couple.

[TanyaKay]

For me, the Olicity scenes that were not there to serve the contrived plot were the highlight of the season. In Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak where Oliver was so supportive of her crisis, both the Flarrow episodes, episode 3x16 where she helped him make the decision about not taking Ra'as' offer and again in all their scenes in 3x19 they worked beautifully together and in my opinion, were the best part of the season.

 

What I find weird is that they are creating this rift between Oliver and Diggle over Lyla's kidnapping which is overblown in my opinion. That was the most benign kidnapping in the history of all kidnappings and Oliver knew that Lyla was NOT a soft target and was as capable a fighter as Diggle - after all they fought the wars together. Kidnapping her to keep his LoA cover was a tough thing to do but not something that is unforgiven in the circumstances. Diggle himself said it in last episode that it is not Oliver but someone else and now he is super angry with him. This just does not make any sense to me. Like at all.

Edited May 6, 2015 by TanyaKay

[wingster55]

Okey doke. So instead of revising for my exams, I thought it would be a better idea to make a graph of some of the main relationships on Arrow. 

 

 

I've missed some stuff out by mistake (I forgot to draw Oliver's friend line with Tommy), and some things may be proven wrong by the next episode (i.e. if Nyssa and Oliver don't get married), but I think that I've got most of the relationships we talk about on here on there. 

 

BTW, the dark dashed line stands for 'wants to have sex with'. 

Wait...why is there a dashed line from Thea to Tommy? 

[quarks]

Regarding whether or not this last episode pushed Oliver and Felicity into abusive territory:

 

Look, I'm not going to praise Oliver for not letting his team in on this, especially given that we've had episodes focused on the fact that Oliver needs to let his team in on things. And I'm not going to think that teaming up with Malcolm was a great move. And yes, I'm the person who had a number of qualms with the way that Ray/Felicity were handled earlier in this season. And I've been complaining for episodes now about Barry/Iris.

 

With all that said:

 

This is Oliver trying to take down the League of Assassins.  Now, yes, as villains go, they've been kinda wimpy all season, and Ra's seems more interested in setting up nice romances and getting grandchildren then, well, being evil, and yes, the League of Assassins helped out against Slade last year. With that said, this is the same group that trained Malcolm Merlyn, which helped lead to the death of 500 plus people in Starling. This is the same group that have been killing various people around the world and forced Sara to become a killer, directly leading to her death.  This is the same group that threatened to kill off two people per day in Starling City just months ago, the same group that killed multiple people in Starling back in March in an attempt to get Oliver to form an alliance with them, the same group that's ready to release a deadly virus, and a group that Oliver told us in the second season that he's heard even worse stories about.  They are bad enough that Tatsu just killed her husband in this last episode in part to get him out of this. These are not good people.

 

So this goes back to Oliver Queen being willing to do, as he did last year against Slade, the unthinkable. Last year, he risked the life of someone who as at the very least a good friend, and really more the love of his life, to take down Slade and keep Amanda Waller from bombing Starling City to the ground. And as Oliver has said this year, he will do anything - anything - to save his sister. This is both saving his sister and Starling and eliminating an evil from the world - and as he just told Diggle, he was willing to sacrifice everything to achieve that. This is also the Oliver Queen who at this point - and they've made it very clear on the show - honestly doesn't think, most of the time, that he deserves happiness, or can be happy.  He thinks Felicity does, but that's different.

 

So no, I don't think this is abusive. I think this is Oliver doing anything it takes to bring down the League of Assassins - and I expect Felicity will understand that.  Especially because I'm pretty sure - as was William Shatner, immediately, for whatever that's worth - that Oliver switched vials and we were meant to guess that. Which means that Oliver actually went to great lengths and risked his life to keep her and the team safe after they came for him, after he realized that because Malcolm is scum (Malcolm, I love you but you are really scum) Malcolm was playing both sides and thus managed to make Ra's even more suspicious. He needs the team to help him bring down Ra's - which they already did by destroying at least one plane and disabling at least some of the assassins, but he also needs to keep them safe. 

 

And there's another important note: unlike the Ray/Felicity stuff, which I think the show thought we were supposed to take as cute and romantic, this isn't getting played as a positive (nor is the Nyssa/Oliver wedding, for what that's worth.) This is getting played as a need.

 

And also, this last episode was clear: Oliver thought he was just going to have to give up his friends and the team while he and Malcolm took down the League from the inside; he wasn't anticipating that he would need them to help him stop the virus.  And of course, since he was trying to go full fledged infiltration mode, he didn't take any additional precautions. I expect on some level he's also pretty hurt that his friends did immediately believe that he's completely on the dark side - just a few weeks ago they were calling him a hero and a brother and all that.

 

And also also, once they were there, Oliver really didn't have time to fill them in on his plan - he kept getting interrupted.  In those last moments, with the vial, he was standing right next to Ra's. So.

 

Having said all that, I do think that this episode would have, once again, been better off with a little tweaking - and specifically, having a longer moment where Felicity does realize that Oliver has been faking it and that the real Oliver - the one she believes in - is still there. And then they took that away with the "Hi, I'm marrying Nyssa," which threw her for a loop.  I also would have tweaked things to have her still believing in Oliver a bit more last episode and earlier in this one - but the show wanted to sell a different story here, so that's what we got.

 

And I definitely would have had more sick people in Hong Kong, earlier, so we got a sense of just how deadly this virus is, upping the stakes beyond the League of Assassins. I would have had the League of Assassins killing more people, to increase the stakes - although with that said, Ra's and the LoA have killed more people by episode 22 than Slade and Malcolm had at this same period. So yes, they're a real threat. And previously, when faced with a real threat, Oliver was more than willing to risk Diggle and Felicity - and they were willing to risk their lives as well.

 

At least that's how I'm reading it.

[statsgirl]

Oliver has been hurting Felicity all season long because he's been pushing her away and hurting her, all the while telling her how much he loves her.  Granted, he hasn't been physically hitting her but there have been emotional blows all season. And after he gets hurt puppy dog eyes and tells her how much he loves her.  Are there scars from how Oliver has treated Felicity this season?  If they were going to write this realistically, yes, there are a bunch. From deciding for her in the season opener that they can't be together, to her mourning when she thought he was dead, and then pushing her away from the time he came back and announced that he was working with Malcolm Merlyn, to pushing her away from his discussion with Diggle about going to Nanda Parbat, he kept hurting her all through the season until 319.

 

And when he gets a chance to talk to someone from the Team, he talks to Diggle, not Felicity.  Why Diggle? Diggle is a soldier, he knows what must be done in wartime. Felicity is the one who doesn't understand why Oliver would be doing this, and she's the one who is going to be  hurt when she hears that he's marrying Nyssa.

 

So if this virus fake-out were the only thing this season that made Oliver hurt Felicity, I'd say, yeah, I'll cut him some slack, although he still showed that Diggle was more important to him than Felicity by asking to speak to Diggle and not her.  But it's part of a pattern for the whole season, actually going back to 223 when he told her "I love you" and got her hoping only to leave her with the idea it was all fake.  He keeps hurting her and then apologizing and explaining that he couldn't do anything else.  I'm sure he'll explain in the next episode and she'll forgive him, but at this point the story they're telling is of emotional abuse, not love.

[Guest]

Wow, no. As someone who has suffered actual emotional abuse, this is so not it. 

[apinknightmare]

And when he gets a chance to talk to someone from the Team, he talks to Diggle, not Felicity.  Why Diggle? Diggle is a soldier, he knows what must be done in wartime. Felicity is the one who doesn't understand why Oliver would be doing this, and she's the one who is going to be  hurt when she hears that he's marrying Nyssa.

 

He didn't talk to Felicity because Ra's knows they love each other and Oliver is betrothed to his daughter. Talking privately to Felicity is the actual WORST THING HE COULD'VE DONE. It would've put his ruse in question and put an even bigger target on Felicity's back. 

 

It was the SMART thing to do not to talk to her. 

 

ETA: Deleting my emotional abuse comments because it's a really personal subject for me and the discussion will not end well for me.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I don't understand the second bolding. How does she keep coming back to Oliver and how does he keep abusing her? She has remained his friend this season but she has called him on his BS while dating another man. She hasn't been waiting about for scraps. He has tried to be the bigger man, failing on occasion, but trying. 

She hasn't been waiting around but every time Oliver opens the door even a tiny crack, she's right through it as fast as she can be.  However Oliver wants her, whatever he wants of her, she's there being it for him. But what she wants of him, he has repeatedly refused to do.

 

In The Calm, Oliver dumps her before their relationship can really being without Felicity having any say about it. She asks him to stop dangling maybes, he refuses to.  In Sara, he tells her he's just waiting till he's the body on the table' she says she wants more so she signs on with Ray Palmer but she's right back in the lair again in the next episode, acting as if nothing had happened.  In ep 305, he's dangling maybes again despite her asking him not to, telling her "and you know how I feel about her".

 

Ray asks her to a business dinner, Felicity tells Oliver desperately hoping he'll stop her from going because he wants to be with her.  Later she hears him tell Cupid that he can't be with anyone.  Two episodes later, he's dangling the "I love you" at her. Then she goes through the trauma of hoping he's alive and learning he's dead, only to have him come back and do something that prevents them from being together.   He leaves her out of planning sessions and talks with Diggle and doesn't tell her about Ra's offer, Diggle has to be the one to do that.  He's shutting her out, and yet she tells him that all she needs to be happy is having him in her life. She can't keep away from him, even Ray can see how much she loves Oliver, enough that Ray breaks up with her.  And then when Oliver finally lets his walls down enough to make love to her, he's pushing her away again because he's decided to stay in Nanda Parbat, so she thinks. Any plan of getting out he didn't share with her. I don't care if it's because he didn't trust her poker face or if he didn't want her to know what he was doing, that's not how partners behave towards each other. Especially since he already had a plan he had worked out with Malcolm.

 

It's the pattern. Ever since he told her he couldn't be with someone he really cares about in 207, Oliver has been alternately pushing Felicity away and telling her he cares about her, and every time she had the option of getting closer to him, she took it eagerly.  She's never held him accountable for hurting her and other than when he decided to work with Malcolm Merlyn, she's never pushed him away at all.  And even after Oliver broke her heart and her ideals of him by teaming with Malcolm, she told him that all she needed to make her happy was to be around him.

 

Thinking you're about to die is not a little thing.  It's something that people develop PTSD over. Thinking that the man who you love with all your heart, who you trusted and believed in, is leaving you to die while he marries another woman is even worse.

 

Maybe it was the right thing not to talk to her in ep 322 but after all he's done to her through this season, there is no way she should be forgiving and trusting him again for a long, long time.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

^

Stop. Oliver has consistently told her that he can't be with her, and she's done her best to move on from that. He didn't sabotage any of her relationships, he never stopped her from being with anyone, he was never controlling towards her. He told her that he loved her repeatedly AND that he couldn't be with her. He wanted her to know that he loved her and wanted to be with her but didn't feel like he could. Felicity knew Oliver was sacrificing being with her because he wanted to save the city and save Thea. He was always, always open about that, just like she was open with him that if he changed his mind, she wanted to be with him. She tried to move on. She kept hoping he'd change his mind, but he never gave her any indication that he would until they were in Nanda Parbat, which they both understood to be a one-time thing. 

 

You would have a point with your argument if Oliver was frequently telling Felicity that he loved her and trying to keep her from being with Ray, or inventing excuses so she couldn't go out with him or something ridiculous like that, but he never did. And Oliver himself was having to cope with involving her in his mission but thinking he couldn't be with her the way he wanted, so he shut her out emotionally. Was it hurtful to Felicity? Yes. Is it abusive? No. He was just struggling to find a balance. 

 

Tonight he asked Felicity to trust him. She has always trusted him, he has never, ever let her be harmed. When she wakes up from whatever knocked her out, she'll realize that she still has reason to trust him. Do I expect her to get over it right away? No. But if she does I won't judge her. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[annaharris]

Oliver has been hurting Felicity all season long because he's been pushing her away and hurting her, all the while telling her how much he loves her.  Granted, he hasn't been physically hitting her but there have been emotional blows all season. And after he gets hurt puppy dog eyes and tells her how much he loves her.  Are there scars from how Oliver has treated Felicity this season?  If they were going to write this realistically, yes, there are a bunch. From deciding for her in the season opener that they can't be together, to her mourning when she thought he was dead, and then pushing her away from the time he came back and announced that he was working with Malcolm Merlyn, to pushing her away from his discussion with Diggle about going to Nanda Parbat, he kept hurting her all through the season until 319.

 

And when he gets a chance to talk to someone from the Team, he talks to Diggle, not Felicity.  Why Diggle? Diggle is a soldier, he knows what must be done in wartime. Felicity is the one who doesn't understand why Oliver would be doing this, and she's the one who is going to be  hurt when she hears that he's marrying Nyssa.

Why not Felicity? First of all, Ra's knows Oliver loves Felicity. Summoning Felicity was the most damaging thing he could do to reveal he wasn't brainwashed, but calling the guy whose wife he kidnapped last episode is a little less obvious. Also, he was going to marry someone else which he has to do to further the ruse. Why would he call the one person who would make that choice so much more difficult? There is no greater temptation NOT to marry Nyssa than Felicity walking into his room and telling him not to. That's like asking the pizza delivery guy to come in when you're on a strict no-carbs diet. 

 

I'm not clear exactly on all the ways Oliver has hurt Felicity save deciding he can't be with her in the premiere. How was he supposed to tell her he was alive to keep her from mourning? He was unconscious. When he returned, it was Felicity who said she didn't want to be a woman he loved. It was then Felicity who got into a relationship with someone else--all justified, I might add, even though I hated her relationship with Ray. So, yes, Oliver has said he loves her and yet he can't be with her, but he has done it because he truly believes it is for her own good, that he's keeping her safe. An abusive relationship is one where he means to hurt her, and that's the complete opposite of what's happening here.

[annaharris]

She hasn't been waiting around but every time Oliver opens the door even a tiny crack, she's right through it as fast as she can be.  However Oliver wants her, whatever he wants of her, she's there being it for him. But what she wants of him, he has repeatedly refused to do.

 

In The Calm, Oliver dumps her before their relationship can really being without Felicity having any say about it. She asks him to stop dangling maybes, he refuses to.  In Sara, he tells her he's just waiting till he's the body on the table' she says she wants more so she signs on with Ray Palmer but she's right back in the lair again in the next episode, acting as if nothing had happened.  In ep 305, he's dangling maybes again despite her asking him not to, telling her "and you know how I feel about her".

 

Ray asks her to a business dinner, Felicity tells Oliver desperately hoping he'll stop her from going because he wants to be with her.  Later she hears him tell Cupid that he can't be with anyone.  Two episodes later, he's dangling the "I love you" at her. Then she goes through the trauma of hoping he's alive and learning he's dead, only to have him come back and do something that prevents them from being together.   He leaves her out of planning sessions and talks with Diggle and doesn't tell her about Ra's offer, Diggle has to be the one to do that.  He's shutting her out, and yet she tells him that all she needs to be happy is having him in her life. She can't keep away from him, even Ray can see how much she loves Oliver, enough that Ray breaks up with her.  And then when Oliver finally lets his walls down enough to make love to her, he's pushing her away again because he's decided to stay in Nanda Parbat, so she thinks. Any plan of getting out he didn't share with her. I don't care if it's because he didn't trust her poker face or if he didn't want her to know what he was doing, that's not how partners behave towards each other. Especially since he already had a plan he had worked out with Malcolm.

 

It's the pattern. Ever since he told her he couldn't be with someone he really cares about in 207, Oliver has been alternately pushing Felicity away and telling her he cares about her, and every time she had the option of getting closer to him, she took it eagerly.  She's never held him accountable for hurting her and other than when he decided to work with Malcolm Merlyn, she's never pushed him away at all.  And even after Oliver broke her heart and her ideals of him by teaming with Malcolm, she told him that all she needed to make her happy was to be around him.

 

Thinking you're about to die is not a little thing.  It's something that people develop PTSD over. Thinking that the man who you love with all your heart, who you trusted and believed in, is leaving you to die while he marries another woman is even worse.

 

Maybe it was the right thing not to talk to her in ep 322 but after all he's done to her through this season, there is no way she should be forgiving and trusting him again for a long, long time.

I respectfully disagree. It all boils down to intention, and in Oliver's mind--and this is show canon--Felicity is a terrible liar. So letting her in on the plan that could spell her death instead of letting it play out when he knows he's going to be working to get back to her and out of this mess IS the smarter plan. Did you see how EBR played every scene in the ep tonight? The shock of finding out he's marrying Nyssa? The clear heartbreak? She can't fake that. Ra's would only believe it if the reaction was genuine, which it was because she didn't actually know.

 

Being partners means knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the other person, and filling in the blanks when necessary. My husband sucks with money, so I do all the budgeting. I'm terrible when my kids have fevers, so my husband withholds their real temperature as he works to get it down because it's better for everyone involved if I don't know my daughter's temperature is 106. I trust him to bring it down or to tell me if we have to go to the ER, but that's what trust means--it's knowing to let someone else take over even when you don't have all the details. Felicity doesn't have all the details, and it's better for her if she doesn't IN OLIVER'S MIND. Whether that's true 100% of the time all throughout the season is up for debate, but it's all about Oliver's intention and everything he has done, he HAS done out of love for her, wanting her to be happy, and wanting to protect her. 

[statsgirl]

I respectfully disagree. It all boils down to intention, and in Oliver's mind--and this is show canon--Felicity is a terrible liar. So letting her in on the plan that could spell her death instead of letting it play out when he knows he's going to be working to get back to her and out of this mess IS the smarter plan. 

[snip]Whether that's true 100% of the time all throughout the season is up for debate, but it's all about Oliver's intention and everything he has done, he HAS done out of love for her, wanting her to be happy, and wanting to protect her. 

If this were the only time all season Oliver had shut Felicity out of the plan, I would agree.  But it's what he's been doing all season, shutting her out and taking away her agency in decisions about her so I don't see it as isolated to this one case where she is a bad liar and he can't tell her, but a pattern of his overall behaviour with her.

 

Felicity asked Oliver to stop dangling maybes and so let her move on. He refused to. He told her "and you know how I feel about her", he told her he loved her as he went off to die because it made him feel better to keep telling her he loved her, not because it was better for her.  He told her when he got back that he knew she had been dreaming about being with him but he shut that right down and said he was going to work with Malcolm Merlyn.  Then he shut her out of the Team Arrow planning sessions,

 

Oliver didn't try to stop her relationship with Ray but he also didn't stop trying to tie her to him.  He told her she was his partner and then he shut her out of any decision-making from either Team Arrow business or their personal lives.  He told her he trusted her and then shut her out of all his plans.

 

Oliver's been telling Felicity that he's putting her first but really, he's been putting himself first all season, doing what is best for him (e.g. telling her he loves her as he walks away from her) rather than what is best for her or even letting her have any say in any decisions about their relationship.

 

It's just as stupid as Roy leaving Thea because he doesn't want her to be on the run from the police, and leaving her his suit so that she can get hurt by bad guys and run from the police.

 

Oliver thinking he's doing it out of love is no excuse, or rather it's the justification many people have given for hurting people they say they love. At some point, it's just pure selfishness.  Ever since Thea told him when he got back that he needs to let her in, he's been pushing away people who end up getting hurt because they love him.

[BkWurm1]

Any plan of getting out he didn't share with her. I don't care if it's because he didn't trust her poker face or if he didn't want her to know what he was doing, that's not how partners behave towards each other. Especially since he already had a plan he had worked out with Malcolm.

 

I would have preferred he'd been explicit that he would be trying to stop Ra's and get away from the LoA but I don't think from anything we saw that he actually had a plan he could have shared beyond not giving up.  He had no timelines to offer.  No promises he could make.  He knew from Malcolm that when he became Ra's he'd have to destroy Starling and it even seemed from his non reaction that Malcolm told him about the virus, but like us, he was speculating that he becoming Ra's was a long time away. 

 

I think he probably did make the choice not to even tell Felicity he would try to get away because in part, he didn't want to start dangling those maybe's again.

 

   Malcolm said he didn't tell them because he was concerned about their acting skills.   We have to remember he didn't know how long this was going to take.  We know the LoA likes to watch people.  They would know if his closest friends and loved ones were acting right or not and this was supposed to go on for months maybe years in his mind.   

 

 He met Malcolm at a prescheduled time perhaps for only that one time, it played that way to me.  He was out of time and his vague plan of taking down the League from inside wasn't good enough and so he asked Malcolm to bring in help.  He now was looking for people he trusted to help him.  Malcolm wasn't much more than a expendable link to the outside.  He and Oliver didn't plan much of anything as far as I can tell but until he had any timeline or plan, letting his team know his plan wasn't to anyone's benefit. 

 

PLUS who is to say that even if he had told them he planned on taking down the league from the inside that Nyssa showing up and saying oh, yeah, he's brainwashed now wouldn't have stuck us in this same exact scenario?

 

It's the pattern. Ever since he told her he couldn't be with someone he really cares about in 207, Oliver has been alternately pushing Felicity away and telling her he cares about her, and every time she had the option of getting closer to him, she took it eagerly.  She's never held him accountable for hurting her and other than when he decided to work with Malcolm Merlyn, she's never pushed him away at all.  And even after Oliver broke her heart and her ideals of him by teaming with Malcolm, she told him that all she needed to make her happy was to be around him. 

     

 

I think an argument could be made that Felicity's association with Oliver is not good for her cause, yes, she's been hurting a lot this year, but It's not abuse.   Felicity would say and has said on multiple occasions that she regrets none of it.  That includes the emotional pain and the danger this line of work puts her in at times.

 

Felicity has never wanted to stop being around Oliver and with or without him, she is not going to stop doing this work.   It comes with costs but she's decided they are worth paying.   I think Oliver has been a fool most of the season with pushing her away and that has hurt her but he hasn't abused her emotionally.  Her life, her choice and for a while she chose to date Ray but her heart wasn't in it. If this thing with Thea hadn't happened she might have just been back to being single and she and Oliver might have fallen back into their old friendship rhythm and maybe for a while Oliver would have been satisfied but then for a while so might have Felicity.  

 

Life has not been kind to either Felicity or Oliver this year but there is not deliberate or passive aggressive cruelty involved.  His desire not to hurt her and thus keep her in the dark about his hopes and plans about Ra's might very well have ended being what hurt her but this latest issue, with him having to pretend he doesn't care as they are being poisoned, that isn't anything to do with their relationship, that is hero business stuff and that comes with some very tough risks physically and emotionally that Felicity, Diggle and even Ray and Laurel have signed up for.  Doesn't make it hurt less, but shouldn't make them lay all the blame at Oliver's feet either.    

 

Oliver letting them believe he left them dying is horrible and traumatic and painful and not easy to forget but it was also necessary in order for them not to die. 

 

We like to say, well he should have just told them what he was planning but that makes a lot of assumptions that we don't have as fact.  We in fact saw him pull Dig aside but also saw him lose his chance to talk to him far sooner than he intended so if he was already planning the virus trick, then he ran out of time.   But again, that is assuming that he had at that point even planned on using the virus switcheroo.   We don't know when that happened or when Ra's decided to use the virus.  It's a lot to assume that he'd know he should warn them about something so unthinkable. 

 

Until Malcolm sniveled to Ra's about Oliver in an attempt at saving his life, I half thought Ra's was going to spare their lives for while - he did have a wedding to attend but instead it's like suddenly Oliver had to prove himself and his loyalty which to Ra's meant a quick killing of his team.  

 

Oliver cares about these people almost more than anything but he also has a responsibility to his city - one his team shares - and the only way to save both his team and still have a chance to save the city meant he had to let his team face something horrible.   This wasn't personal.  This wasn't about Oliver's love for Felicity.  It's there, but this isn't something that only hurt her.  This was a painful part of being a hero.   They will escape physically, but this time, they were all wounded emotionally.   It's another scar.   It's a blow but surviving and coming out the other side is a mark of valor.  

[dtissagirl]

The main reason Oliver couldn't let Felicity in on the plan is because the writers decided they wanted to end the episode on their biggest and craziest and SHOCKING cliffhanger ever, and if Felicity had even a hint of what was coming, then so would the audience. They planted hints for the folks looking in a bit deeper -- Oliver's meeting with Dig, "I need you to trust me" -- but they set out to SHOCK the average viewer, and for that to work, Felicity couldn't know anything.

[KenyaJ]

Deleted. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by KenyaJ

[Guest]

Forgive the use of Wikipedia but it will do:

 

As of 1996,[4] there are "no consensus views about the definition of emotional abuse." As such, clinicians and researchers have offered sometimes divergent definitions of emotional abuse. However, the widely used Conflict Tactics Scale measures roughly twenty distinct acts of "psychological aggression" in three different categories:

 

Verbal aggression (e.g., saying something that upsets or annoys someone else);
Dominant behaviors (e.g., preventing someone from contacting their family);
Jealous behaviors (e.g., accusing a partner of maintaining other parallel relations).

 

According to the University of Illinois counseling center, ″Emotional abuse is any kind of abuse that is emotional rather than physical in nature. It can include anything from verbal abuse and constant criticism to more subtle tactics, such as intimidation, manipulation, and refusal to ever be pleased. Emotional abuse can take many forms. Three general patterns of abusive behavior include aggressing, denying, and minimizing'.″[5] Even though there is no established definition for emotional abuse, emotional abuse can possess a definition beyond verbal and psychological abuse. Blaming, shaming, and name calling are a few identifiers of verbal abuse which can affect a victim emotionally. The victim's self-worth and emotional well being is altered and even diminished by the verbal abuse and the result is an emotionally abused victim.[6] The victim may experience severe psychological effects. This would involve the tactics of brainwashing, which can fall under psychological abuse as well, but emotional abuse consists of the manipulation of the victim's emotions. The victim may feel their emotions are being affected by the abuser so much that the victim may no longer recognize what their own feelings are about issue/s the abuser is trying to control. The result is the victim's self-concept and independence are `systematically taken away.[7]

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Guest

[Chaser]

Is it weird that I love the Felicity/Malcolm dynamic?

 

The Malcolm storyline is one of the worst parts of the season. I hate Oliver listening to him. I hate him playing father to Thea. Even when they tell him he is horrible, I want to yell at my TV because they allowed half this BS.

 

But Felicity and Malcolm is perfect. She calls him on his crap, doesn't pretend to trust him at all. He just kind of takes the digs with this weird mixture of amusement and respect.

[quarks]

I think what it comes down to is trust.

 

From the pilot, Oliver Queen hasn't been able to trust people. He came back home and immediately started lying to everyone. Even when he told one person (Diggle) part of the truth, he kept lying about the rest. He's said it himself: during those five years he came to see nearly everyone as threats, or targets - and I think he's moved Felicity into that "target" range; he knows full well that Ra's knows about his feelings for Felicity.  It's a very difficult pattern to break, and three years into the show, Oliver's still having problems with it: as Felicity has told him, he's still not telling her much about those five missing years, or what happened after his death - if he had, things would have gone very differently.

 

And on the other side, it's a question of how much can the team trust a man who spent the first season of the show running around killing people, spent the second season not telling them everything he knew about the Mirakuru virus, and has spent this season teaming up with a mass murderer - yes, in the hopes of bringing down a group that may be equally as bad, if not worse - but a group that they also know has helped them against the Mirakuru virus and has its own code of honor.

 

I think it's an interesting question. I'm not at all sure that the show has always explored it well - well, scratch that, I'd say the show hasn't always explored it well - and the speed at which these episodes are written means, I think, that some things haven't been highlighted or explained that should have been.  But I think that's what the last few episodes and Maseo's plotline were meant to explore: what is it to trust someone when you've been broken?

 

(Or I'm just terribly sleep deprived, whichever.)

[Chaser]

I feel like this whole trust issue between Oliver and Diggle/Felicity (I don't count Laurel because reasons) would have played better in S2. Its a little hard to swallow after watching how the Team had grown during S1 and S2.

[Password]

Particularly in the light that Oliver specifically said "it started with the three of us, it's time it ended that way". They went backsies on that in a major way this season. They shoved in this identity theme for Oliver's journey whether it made sense or not.

Things like " I rely on you" and "you're my partner" ring somewhat false. They just dropped the ball on Oliver's journey this season entirely. What will he say when they rightfully call him out on once again trusting Malcolm? "Well you drugged me Felicity, and 2 days before made me think Roy was killed in prison for me."

[kismet]

Honestly, I know that Oliver's actions have hurt Felicity this season. But I don't think it was intentional or abusive. I may not have agreed with all of his decisions regarding her, but I understand his reasoning. Felicity I think could have spoken up sooner if she wanted things to change. She seemed content with how things were playing out until his death. Her life, her decision. Honestly, I always thought that she didn't fight hard enough for him earlier in the season (likely because it was earlier in the season), but them not being together was in my mind almost a mutual decision. They verbalized it differently, but she was part of that decision as well. Felicity has had her agency taken away a few times this season, but I never saw it by Oliver. I wish they both would have done things differently.

 

Right now, I think its a matter of Oliver trusting himself. He trusts his team & whether they trust him or not or to what degree will be revealed next week I assume. I think he's is trying to manage too many things right now. Right now I see Oliver as a man spinning plates. One move and they all come tumbling down. Biggest of his concerns, is keeping his ruse up about being ASH. Talking to Felicity or having her around is beginning to put that at risk. Just look at the difference between him last week & this week after FS arrived. His heart eyes were beginning to show through his mask. His inability to keep his emotions off his face around her is putting them all at risk. A few more interactions, and the gig would be up. Meeting with her might have been prefarable to Diggle. But there was no way it made more sense. By his shear experience, Diggle is the better leader of the group for this type of mission. I think Oliver was trying to minimize his interactions with Felicity to keep his mind clear on the mission & his cover. It was not that he did not want to include her in the plan, but it just was not feasible.

[Guest]

Is it weird that I love the Felicity/Malcolm dynamic?

 

The Malcolm storyline is one of the worst parts of the season. I hate Oliver listening to him. I hate him playing father to Thea. Even when they tell him he is horrible, I want to yell at my TV because they allowed half this BS.

 

But Felicity and Malcolm is perfect. She calls him on his crap, doesn't pretend to trust him at all. He just kind of takes the digs with this weird mixture of amusement and respect.

 

Not weird. Actually the only good thing to come out of Malcolm being there this season is Felicity's utter contempt for him and their continual sniping back and forth. I actually really dig it which surprises me. She has no qualms talking shit to him and he just takes it. They kind of struck gold there, inadvertently I think.

[tv echo]

I still feel like the fact Malcolm orchestrated Sara's murder has been glossed over, and is barely remembered by anyone anymore.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Is it weird that I love the Felicity/Malcolm dynamic?

 

The Malcolm storyline is one of the worst parts of the season. I hate Oliver listening to him. I hate him playing father to Thea. Even when they tell him he is horrible, I want to yell at my TV because they allowed half this BS.

 

But Felicity and Malcolm is perfect. She calls him on his crap, doesn't pretend to trust him at all. He just kind of takes the digs with this weird mixture of amusement and respect.

 

i love it. They really do have this great chemistry and a great dynamic. You're right, I can see amusement, respect and also affection. In a twisted way, because, yeah, it's Malcolm. I don't want him to be "redeemed" because he's a mass murderer and a psychopath. But I would love it if Felicity sets it up that if anything happens to her, Oliver, Diggle and his family and Thea, information packets about Malcolm Merlyn would be automatically sent to law enforcement around the world. So it would be in Malcolm's best interest to protect them.

[NumberCruncher]

I still feel like the fact Malcolm orchestrated Sara's murder has been glossed over, and is barely remembered by anyone anymore.

Well of course...nobody ever faces the ramifications of their decisions on this show because plot.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I still feel like the fact Malcolm orchestrated Sara's murder has been glossed over, and is barely remembered by anyone anymore.

 

Laurel mentioned it in this episode, but yeah, totally glossed over.

[dtissagirl]

It's never not hilarious to me that at least three people -- Thea, Nyssa, Laurel -- have real reason to decapitate Malcolm first, have no regrets later, but they just leave him alone, because the plot needs him alive to help/betray Oliver.

 

JUST ONE MORE WEEK, YOU GUYS.

[FireFoxy]

I see people already saying Felicity forgiving Oliver is ridiculous on other forums. I mean, love makes you do stupid stuff, like overlook the fact your boyfriend is fucking around with random women AND your sister....

[Guest]

I still feel like the fact Malcolm orchestrated Sara's murder has been glossed over, and is barely remembered by anyone anymore.

 

It is pretty much glossed over. But Thea mentioned it and Laurel hates him. So does Felicity. So I don't think it's forgotten so much as it's not mentioned outright. It needs to be though.

[nksarmi]

It's never not hilarious to me that at least three people -- Thea, Nyssa, Laurel -- have real reason to decapitate Malcolm first, have no regrets later, but they just leave him alone, because the plot needs him alive to help/betray Oliver.

 

JUST ONE MORE WEEK, YOU GUYS.

I want the three of them to kill him with friendly fire in some epic battle and just say "opps" when Oliver calls them on it.

[doesntworkonwood]

Wait...why is there a dashed line from Thea to Tommy? 

Because back in season 1 Thea attempted to start a romantic relationship with Tommy, which was why she was pretty grossed out when she realised that Merlyn was her Dad. 

 

The reason I did the graph was pretty much because I wanted to see if there really was a large amount of almost but not quite incest on the show, which is why I kept that in there. 

[statsgirl]

And on the other side, it's a question of how much can the team trust a man who spent the first season of the show running around killing people, spent the second season not telling them everything he knew about the Mirakuru virus, and has spent this season teaming up with a mass murderer - yes, in the hopes of bringing down a group that may be equally as bad, if not worse - but a group that they also know has helped them against the Mirakuru virus and has its own code of honor.

Strangely, I don't have a problem with Diggle and Felicity trusting Oliver at this point even though they know he's been a killer, most recently telling Felicity that he killed Thea's drug dealer.  They've been with him for almost three years now, they know he's a good man inside.

 

The problem for me is that Oliver doesn't trust them.  This never goes away even though he is now telling Felicity more about his life in the away years.  When push comes to shove, even after three years, he doesn't trust Diggle and Felicity and he doesn't respect them enough to get their input when he makes these huge decisions, often for other people.  I don't know how a relationship can survive that.  After a while when you keep getting dismissed like that again and again, you just stop trying to be connected.

 

At this point it feels like I'm seeing Oliver auditioning for the role of Torvald in A Doll's House wrt to his relationships with Diggle and especially Felicity..

    I think an argument could be made that Felicity's association with Oliver is not good for her cause, yes, she's been hurting a lot this year, but It's not abuse.   Felicity would say and has said on multiple occasions that she regrets none of it.  That includes the emotional pain and the danger this line of work puts her in at times.

I don't want to get into the whole question of what is abuse and what isn't.  I will just say that while people who are not abused will say that they regret none of it, so will people who are abused, they will justify and explain until they finally get out.  Which, according to the research, is on average the eighth time they try to leave.

[DrSpaceman10]

I wish Nyssa had been in on the plan to marry Oliver to take down Ra's. Oliver got to make a choice (even though not a good one), this "plot twist" highlights the lack of agency that female characters have on this show. Male characters are always making decisions for them (ie: Roy leaving Thea, Thea being forced to live with Malcolm, Ray breaking up with Felicity, Nyssa being forced to marry Oliver, etc.).

[apinknightmare]

I wish Nyssa had been in on the plan to marry Oliver to take down Ra's. Oliver got to make a choice (even though not a good one), this "plot twist" highlights the lack of agency that female characters have on this show. Male characters are always making decisions for them (ie: Roy leaving Thea, Thea being forced to live with Malcolm, Ray breaking up with Felicity, Nyssa being forced to marry Oliver, etc.).

 

For all we know she could be. 

 

I mean, she probably isn't, but I think she might've realized that Oliver was playing Ra's at the end of the last ep and they're going to work together to bring him down.

Edited May 8, 2015 by apinknightmare