Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tarotx]

Oliver loved Sara but imo, in Oliver's eyes he did to Sara what he doesn't want to do with Felicity. Pretty much forced her into a life of darkness because of his (his father and Malcolm's) choices. He ached for her.

Imo Olicity is unique. Or, I know Lol, but to me they are like GG's Lorelie&Luke Or were until this forced breakup when they were barely a couple. Even just as friends they bring this wonderful positive connection of promise&light into the screen. I'm a huge Sara fan but I liked The Olicity friendship And see potential in a romance.

I mean I think the show should have had them as a couple in 3a. They should have broken up because Felicity was against Oliver going off to die alone because of Malcolm. She would have been for finding a way to save Thea form Ra. Then her anger in 3b would work better. Everything would work better. Even the Nasty Ray Oliver similarities And her with him because he listens to her compared to Oliver.

Edited March 28, 2015 by tarotx

[Ang]

I mean I think the show should have had them as a couple in 3a. They should have broken up because Felicity was against Oliver going off to die alone because of Melcolm. She would have been for finding a way to save Thea form Ra. Then her anger in 3b would work better. Everything would work better. Even the Nasty Ray Oliver similarities And her with him because he listens to her compared to Oliver.

I completely agree with this, all the more for the discussion that's been going on regarding the 2.5 comics. By starting the season with a fledgling relationship that the audience sees develop and, sure, fall apart over the first 9 episodes, they would have provided a solid foundation for some serious romantic angst. As it stands, I've heard a lot of complaints about the (crappily done) focus on romantic relationship, but if they'd actually shown us a bit of an actual romantic relationship, they could have more effectively hit all the notes they wanted while actually focusing on it less.

It didn't even have to be all happy-go-lucky, and even fits with the plot we actually got. Imagine if, over the course of several episodes, we got, in the background, some flirting, some pulling away, some emotional connection, maybe an actual date around episode 6, a few more conflicted attempts to be together, and then a big separation in episode 9 where they're in many ways closer than they've ever been but disagree over Oliver's approach to Malcolm/Ra's and Oliver's fatalistic attitude toward his vigilante mission. Meanwhile we've seen Felicity form a solid professional relationship and friendship with Ray, who provides professional respect, intellectual challenge, and occasional emotional support.

It's the same thing we saw, right? Only instead of defining the relationship as over and done in one episode, we see little bits of it over time, making it feel more substantial. Focus the loss of identity after he comes back from the dead so it has more impact. I'm honestly not seeing a downside.

I'm seriously confused about their intentions with Oliver's relationship with Felicity. If they end up never going there, this melodrama is all the more enfuriating. If they end up giving it one last kiss-off and then it's done for good (which frankly kind of feels like what we're heading to) it's pathetic that they spent an entire season focusing on it. The only salvation I can see is if they really do see this as the great love of Oliver's life, and I can't imagine that's what MG and others are really wanting.

[lexicon]

I don't see them dropping the Oliver/Felicity romance arc this season, I think all of this love triangle, I love you but I can't be with you stuff is definitely leading somewhere. Since the EPs have said that they like to repeat themes from the season premiere in the season finale I expect the show to at least revisit Oliver's stance on not being able to be with Felicity and save the city. 

 

This is pretty much what happened last season too, the beginning and end of the season made sense but the middle was a mess. So I'm hoping the same is true of this season and they can pull it together. 

 

So next year to save myself the heartache I should watch the first few eps and then skip straight through to the last ;)

[kismet]

Yep @ANG seriously confused about their intentions with O/F relationship this season. I just can't figure out which audience they were trying to reach. And they said that they have plan for the entire season that it works as a whole so I will try to believe in their plan, but its getting harder to believe in them as they take so many shots at the characters this season. Sorta feels like I'm stuck at a really awkward dinner party. There were some great drinks but then each food course has been less appetizing. You keep holding on for the dessert course but you still have to politely eat whatever is placed in front of you knowing there is no quick end in sight.

[nksarmi]

You know what is kind of sad - the writers of this show have give us two relationships that have been riddled with difficulty but not angst.  Diggle and Lyla and Thea and Roy.  I think Thea and Roy are particularly important to look at (even if the writers blow them up by the end of the season) because it really is how an Oliver/Felicity pairing could have worked.

 

Thea and Roy start out together but break up for reasons that make sense (other than the whole Oliver demanded it thing).  When we see them together after that it is crystal clear that Roy still has feelings for her but he isn't really pinning.  We don't see him with anyone else, but again, no angsty, dramatic sadness.  Roy supports her, tries to make her feel better, and wants her to believe the best about herself (and that is how he honestly sees her). 

 

Thea on the other hand has to go through this incredibly weird, emotional journey in terms of Merlyn, finding out what happened with Sara, learning her brother and Roy's secret, etc... The whole time Roy is there - not pushing her one single bit.  And then, when she turns to him - you know he is as happy as can be - and he gets to be with the woman he loves again.

 

And all of this kind of happened secondary to the plot - not as the plot itself.  I know they are only B characters, but if the writers can be that subtle and non-angsty with them - why can't they do that with Oliver and Felicity?  Why does it have to be "I can't be with you" and not "I really like you, but oh look another problem is falling from the sky, we'll talk later"?

[dtissagirl]

So next year to save myself the heartache I should watch the first few eps and then skip straight through to the last ;)

 

Wait, season two wasn't just 12 episodes? There were all those lovely nine episodes from October to December, then the show took a long 4-month hiatus until the last 3 episodes in May Sweeps. I'm remembering it right, right? ;)

 

 

Yep @ANG seriously confused about their intentions with O/F relationship this season. I just can't figure out which audience they were trying to reach. And they said that they have plan for the entire season that it works as a whole so I will try to believe in their plan, but its getting harder to believe in them as they take so many shots at the characters this season.

 

Imo, it's because they don't plan character/relationship arcs. They plan specific plot points/plot twists they want to reach, and then they write the characters and relationships towards reaching those pre-defined plot points. It would have been lovely to have had 3A like @tarox and @Ang are describing, but that would have precluded these writers willingly going back to writing character-driven stories. But they stopped that post-209, and never went back.

[benteen]

dancingnancy - not a bad counter argument, but I've had the impression she was pinning over him for at least all of season two.  I also think lines like "finally get a guy interested in me and he gets hit buy a bolt of lightning" indicate that not only was she pinning a little - she was also lonely.  And I just do not want to see them return Felicity to that status.

 

Do I wish Ray had been written better? Yes.  I don't dislike him like so many do, but there have been issues.  It's just that this is a season that had Merlyn trying to get Oliver to fight Ras to erase his blood debt when there is no logical way Merlyn would expect Oliver to win.  It's a season where Merlyn threatened to show Ras a video of Thea killing Sara which is what makes Oliver go fight Ras but then Oliver later says he knew Merlyn was bluffing.  It's a season where Oliver saves Merlyn after Thea secures their safety because he doesn't want Thea to feel guilty about it?  Or because he feels weak because Ras (a man who has been fighting for more than a century) beat him with a sword (which we have never seen Oliver use).  A season where Thea says in one episode "We should stay and fight" and in the next episode "I'm not a killer - I didn't sign up for this!"  A season where they just forgot that Roy was lying unconscious and had Oliver walk off without checking on him!

 

All in all, how in the world could Ray have been written better with all of this other crud going on?  Don't get me wrong - I still love this show.  But if I have to lower my expectations for how they are writing Oliver and the main plot - I certainly don't have high hopes for a side story like Ray. 

 

I guess it just started occurring to me what would happen next season if they end Raylicity now and visions of Felicity dating a guy who turns out to be the main villain and female villains trying to kill Felicity and other such nonsense filled my head and frankly - I'd just rather they keep Felicity and Ray together off camera and let it be.

 

That's what it comes down to.  The writing of the storylines and the characters has been atrocious.

[kismet]

So this is a response to what "wonderwall, on 28 Mar 2015 - 1:37 PM" post on the suicidal tendencies thread page 8. Great gifs. I've seen a few other great gifsets on tumblr too, but don't want to fill the page with too many images. I think they hit home what from a relationship stand point why I had such a visceral response to Ray's behavior in 317. I think Trust is a very important factor in any relationship both platonic and romantic. Trust is fundamental. And he not only displayed a lack of trust, but then accused her of not being trustworthy. And then his demeanor the entire episode, like he was the one that had been fundamentally betrayed. On order to gain trust, you have to give trust.

 

Ray Palmer has claimed on multiple episodes that he trusts Felicity, but then when forced to show that he actually does trust her he proves he doesn't when it comes to her secrets. Rather he throws accusations against her that are pretty generalized and over the top. I realize her not telling him that she knew/worked with the Arrow must have been a blow, on top of the immediate "yes" after asking about her feelings. And as much as I can feel bad for him in that moment, it was not her secret to tell. And he should have appreciated that she didn't reveal his secret either. People are not open books, there are some things that people keep from each other and reveal in time. But its a testament to how solid a relationship is comes from how people respond when they find out about the information. Granted OQ has known FS longer, but his response seemed more on point with trusting her. There was some frustration or mild anger to be expected, but he didn't just disregard her. Instead, he made the effort to go & talk to Ray. He trusted that even if he may not agree with what Ray was doing, he would still give Felicity the benefit of the doubt and give Ray a shot.

 

Relationships when they are starting out can be a little touch and go. But Ray's overreaction to me was a warning sign of more trouble down the road. Trouble that I realize had been festering under the surface for awhile. There was just something that comes off too perfect about him, but I promise I was trying to like the guy for Felicity's sake. Finding out your new gf has been working with arrow and may have feelings for him, must have been shock and I realize in that moment it must have been hard for him to trust her. But he could have made an attempt to try to trust her. If the relationship meant more to him than the suit, then I think he should have showed it by trying to understand her POV. But it seemed that he was too quick to just push her away because she didn't tell him about one aspect of her life. Its not like they have been dating for years and she was keeping a big secret. It was a few weeks, maybe months if you count their working friendship in 3a, so really he had no ground by which to say that her not telling him about the Arrow completely violated any possibility of her being trustworthy. If it had been years, than maybe his reaction would have made more sense. Trust is a 2 way street, she trusted him to help him build the suit and kept it from her closest friends, while he didn't even bother to tell her it worked. So that to me is another sign that he didn't trust her enough once he got what he needed from her.

 

I don't know personally I'm not someone who trust easily, so for me I consider some of his hypocritical accusations towards Felicity warning signs. I want Felicity to be able to trust herself and her partner. I understood that she went back to him to work on the relationship. Obviously, Felicity does seem to value her relationship with Ray, so I get that she is not willing to just let this fight ruin it. But I just imagined that she would go into the conversation being the strong independent intelligent woman of the last 3yrs and politely call him out on his accusations, but instead she apologized first. The Felicity that showed up in that office at the end of the show just wasn't the Felicity I had come to know over the past few seasons. I would have liked for her to stand up to him the way she has stood up to Oliver, MM, and her mother. I just didn't like that she felt like she needed to apologize when she really did nothing wrong. Ray should have gone to her to apologize first. Ray should have been the one to reach out with an olive branch. He was the one who devalued the level of trust between them. She's been nothing but supportive towards him. If Felicity was my friend, I would be keeping a close eye on her and her relationship with him. If she was my friend, I would be asking her to evaluate how really happy she is vs how happy she thinks she is. I would ask her to consider how much she can trust what is real & what is just hopeful restructuring of reality. Maybe that's what Mama Smoak & Barry Allen will do in upcoming episodes. I want nothing more for Felicity to be truly happy, but I don't want her to have to compromise who she is to accomplish being happy. And sometimes, I feel that when she is around Ray, she compromises who she is. But the writers have compromised the characters for the sake of plot so many times this season, that sometimes I feel it doesn't even matter what we all think about the relationships because they are not the priority. So maybe all of the inconsistencies and red flags this season are more because of plot than anything else more sinister.

[wonderwall]

I made this same argument over on the Flash forum, but to repeat here: my guess is that the producers are serious - they really don't have an endgame in mind because they have no idea how long this show will continue or whether or not various actors will want to stay on it.  Frankly, if the show ends in five years, we might get one endgame; if it continues for ten years, we might get another

 

I actually agree with this. I just hope the show doesn't run for so long like Supernatural because Arrow is not the kind of show that could fare well in the long run. Just look at how poorly its doing this season. Regardless, it's way too soon to say who's endgame and who isn't even though I think that the show should stop with the unnecessary romantic drama and make Oliver choose a woman and stay with her till the end of the series because there are thousands of other things going on at the same time. 

 

I sort of have a hard time believing EBR will quit Arrow because this is her first big role and she's really attached to her character (even moreso than most actors I've come across), but anything can definitely happen. 

 

In five years maybe Laurel will be likable enough for the EPs to want to give L/O another try, maybe KC will decide to leave the show, maybe Felicity will become the most hated character (knock on wood), or maybe someone else will be introduced to be the love interest (I would really hate this because we don't need yet another character on the show), or maybe Oliver will either end up alone or dead-dead... Sidenote: This is why I hate watching shows live :p I hate not knowing where it ends and investing so much of my time and life to it only to end up being disappointed (I'm looking at you HIMYM). 

 

Looking at this season alone, I think the one thing that the show did well was to show me that no other couple on the show could really compare to O/F and that's in terms of what we've gotten (albeit sometimes not so clearly) narratively and not just in terms of chemistry (although it would be difficult to replicate what SA/EBR have, imo). I know they've had a rocky season at best, but can't really shake the feeling that maybe they continue to be lost because of the distance between them. O/F might not be endgame, but they're in it for the long haul that's for sure. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

Looking at this season alone, I think the one thing that the show did well was to show me that no other couple on the show could really compare to O/F and that's in terms of what we've gotten (albeit sometimes not so clearly) narratively and not just in terms of chemistry (although it would be difficult to replicate what SA/EBR have, imo). I know they've had a rocky season at best, but can't really shake the feeling that maybe they continue to be lost because of the distance between them. O/F might not be endgame, but they're in it for the long haul that's for sure. 

If anything, as someone on tumblr pointed out, Oliver hasn't had sex in almost a year. If he breaks that dry spell with anyone but Felicity, it would undermine the payoff to the "I need to live like a self-sacrificing monk" storyline.

 

I've never been a fan of the idea that characters have to fix all their personal flaws before they can be with the one they love (e.g. "Oliver's really messed up, so he doesn't deserve Felicity until he fixes all his issues") so I'm just ready for them to bang already. They can sort everything out afterwards.

[wonderwall]

If anything, as someone on tumblr pointed out, Oliver hasn't had sex in almost a year. If he breaks that dry spell with anyone but Felicity, it would undermine the payoff to the "I need to live like a self-sacrificing monk" storyline.

 

I've never been a fan of the idea that characters have to fix all their personal flaws before they can be with the one they love (e.g. "Oliver's really messed up, so he doesn't deserve Felicity until he fixes all his issues") so I'm just ready for them to bang already. They can sort everything out afterwards.

 

Oh I completely agree with you. Everyone has their issues and Oliver is the king of having issues. I just think that he needs to work out certain issues before he ever gets with Felicity. And it's the issue he's battling right now. He needs to learn how to embrace life and embrace the chance for happiness because otherwise, he'd enter into a relationship with a ticking time bomb. I'm glad that O/F haven't gotten together yet. I know some people wouldn't have minded if they stayed together for the first half of the season, but I'm glad that they weren't together. 

 

Once Oliver embraces his life as Oliver Queen, then I'd be happy for him and Felicity to get together (also I'd like for him to prove that he's in it for the long haul because I feel like Felicity would be weary of ever getting into a relationship with him after this season). Then they could hurdle through different obstacles and issues as a unit. Sometimes your better half can help make you a stronger person, there's nothing to be ashamed of in that. 

 

Also, yeah. I feel like if Oliver breaks that dry spell with anyone else, it would undermine the payoff. And that's exactly what Stephen said earlier this season. I just feel like a 'quick lay' would make Oliver regress as a character because I don't think that he's the kind of guy who has sex with just about anyone anymore.

[Genki]

I'm not sure how Oliver will prove that he is committed or in it for the long haul other than taking the leap. And one open and honest discussion with Felicity. And I'm OK with that.

 

Seriously if the drought is broken with anyone other than Felicity I will have to give up the show. Why did you guys put that out there?!?!?

[AyChihuahua]

You know, Laurel probably hasn't had sex since the creepy thing with Oliver at the end of S1.  I didn't see any indication she had sex with Blood or the dumb ADA in S2, and they may have intended her to get together with Ted Grant, but it didn't happen.  So hey, maybe she and Oliver can clear out the ol' cobwebs together.

[blixie]

 

I've never been a fan of the idea that characters have to fix all their personal flaws before they can be with the one they love (e.g. "Oliver's really messed up, so he doesn't deserve Felicity until he fixes all his issues") so I'm just ready for them to bang already. They can sort everything out afterwards.

 

Ah-fucking-men.

 

 

He needs to learn how to embrace life and embrace the chance for happiness

 

IMO he spent all of G-D S2 resolving this issue, understanding that he needed people, and most importantly his Team to really win and survive, and in one episode the writers chose to regress him back to less than zero on that. I'm not here for that type of contrived bullshit, I never will be. Oliver was as ready as he was every going to be to embark on relationship with Felicity S3E!, but I also thought there were lots of organic challenges and reasons they both might choose NOT to go for it, and none of that was about daddy abandonment issues on her side, nor identity issues on his. 

 

I still think it was important for FELICITY to shut the relationship down in The Calm, because she was worried about the ways a romance between them might compromise the mission, because that one single piece of what their saying is true enough, and Digggle/Oliver both seemed to arrive at that conclusion in last weeks episode. My problem was that line was given no weight, and seriously seemed to be some kind of tossed off afterthought. Like OF COURSE life is complicated and the things that matter are worth the complications, you dumb ass. Oliver is not behaving in anyway as if he really believes that to be true, that he was drawing any conclusions about his own life choices.  Having him say it to Diggle, meant it was only ABOUT Diggle in particular, sure Dig you're mentally healthy enough to know this simple fact, I'm a twelve year old in cave waiting to die alone though if only there were some way I could stop being that without failing the city! 

 

But if Fellicity had been the one to put Oliver off for the Mission, it would have allowed for her involvement with Ray to start in earnest about the Mission, because she was suspicious of him and his ATOM project, and because she was genuinely interested in the work and opportunities he was offering her, then in that process found herself legitimately charmed by him/attracted to him. I think that was a way to keep them apart while also still keeping them in unison, both sacrificing their real feelings for what they believe is a greater good, of protecting the city. I also think the Ra's stuff shouldn't have started until Felicity/Oliver had finally decided to be together only to have this crisis show up just how difficult it was going to be.

 

Oh well ifs, buts, candy, nuts.

[strikera0]

Also, yeah. I feel like if Oliver breaks that dry spell with anyone else, it would undermine the payoff. And that's exactly what Stephen said earlier this season. I just feel like a 'quick lay' would make Oliver regress as a character because I don't think that he's the kind of guy who has sex with just about anyone anymore.

 

While Oliver has made strides in his crusade as the Arrow, I think he already has regressed in his personal life. Season 1 Oliver wasn't perfect, but at least he was trying to have a life back then. He had the club, he spend time with his friends, he went to functions and parties with his family and he went out on dates. Now he's just a self-pitying picture of misery with no real life of his own.

 

I've never been a fan of the idea that characters have to fix all their personal flaws before they can be with the one they love (e.g. "Oliver's really messed up, so he doesn't deserve Felicity until he fixes all his issues") so I'm just ready for them to bang already. They can sort everything out afterwards.

Considering that we're already 17 episodes into the season and there has been no progress concerning Oliver's identity crisis, I think it's likely that there may be a lightswitch of some sorts in the final episode of the season followed by a quick Oliver/Felicity hookup. While that may satisfy some fans, I do not think that it would lead to a healthy and stable relationship between them. I think it would probably lead to a messy relationship with several break-ups and make-ups in future season. IMO, Oliver first needs to carve out a casual life for himself that isn't dependent on being with any one person before he has any chance of making a relationship work long term.

 

Edited March 29, 2015 by strikera0

[catrox14]

You know, Laurel probably hasn't had sex since the creepy thing with Oliver at the end of S1.  I didn't see any indication she had sex with Blood or the dumb ADA in S2, and they may have intended her to get together with Ted Grant, but it didn't happen.  So hey, maybe she and Oliver can clear out the ol' cobwebs together.

 

YOU BITE YOUR TONGUE. 

 

The carnage in the fanbase, would be.....I just can't...even.  NO. JUST NO.

[statsgirl]

Considering that we're already 17 episodes into the season and there has been no progress concerning Oliver's identity crisis, I think it's likely that there may be a lightswitch of some sorts in the final episode of the season followed by a quick Oliver/Felicity hookup. While that may satisfy some fans, I do not think that it would lead to a healthy and stable relationship between them. I think it would probably lead to a messy relationship with several break-ups and make-ups in future season.

 

It will be messy with several break-ups anyway because that's what MG thinks makes good TV.  There's not way Oliver and Felicity will get together and stay together happily unless they don't get together until the last episode (and boy, did I hate the JAG ending).

 

I've never been a fan of the idea that characters have to fix all their personal flaws before they can be with the one they love (e.g. "Oliver's really messed up, so he doesn't deserve Felicity until he fixes all his issues") so I'm just ready for them to bang already. They can sort everything out afterwards.

 

I am so on board with that.  Giving Oliver a taste of just how good it can be with Felicity will encourage him even more to work out his issues so he can have that.

 

Oliver does have to work out his issues for the long and happy life bit but he doesn't have to do it alone, and he doesn't have to be celibate or having cheat affairs until he does.

 

And we the audience need something to keep us going over the summer after this very crappy season for Olicity.  They can be apart at the start of s4 for external (NOT internal) reasons, but for heavens sake, at least give them one shot at sex this season.

Edited March 29, 2015 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

At this point, just about every person in the fandom is more invested in Oliver's sex life than Oliver himself. But then again, that man needs help.

[wonderwall]

At this point, just about every person in the fandom is more invested in Oliver's sex life than Oliver himself. But then again, that man needs help.

 

Lmao I'm more invested in him figuring his shit out first :p 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Lmao I'm more invested in him figuring his shit out first :p 

 

Mind-blowing sex with Felicity might help him figure his shit out and give him incentive to make the right choices ;)

[wonderwall]

While Oliver has made strides in his crusade as the Arrow, I think he already has regressed in his personal life. Season 1 Oliver wasn't perfect, but at least he was trying to have a life back then. He had the club, he spend time with his friends, he went to functions and parties with his family and he went out on dates. Now he's just a self-pitying picture of misery with no real life of his own.

 

I am so pissed and annoyed that there hasn't been more focus on Oliver's issues. I thought that his issues were going to be challenged and questioned throughout the entire season like last season, but in this season it's only been addressed like three times? I'm hoping Oliver makes some strides in the next few episodes because I won't believe the whole 'light switch' realization thing... smh

Mind-blowing sex with Felicity might help him figure his shit out and give him incentive to make the right choices ;)

 

Hey if Palmer can figure out how to make his suit function by having sex with Felicity, maybe Oliver can figure his shit out by having even hotter/sweatier/awesomer sex with her. I'm just sayin'. Also, if he gets out of bed and leaves her there after their first time, imma be pissed. I expect lots of cuddling and cuteness afterwards. 

[Guest]

As much as I want Felicity and Oliver to just rip off each other's clothes and make good use of all the surfaces, Oliver really does need to figure out the dual identities thing first. There's no way he'll figure all his shit out before he can be in a relationship because Oliver will always have issues and I like the idea of them working through things together. That's the kind of stuff I like to watch. But the fact that he doesn't think he can be Oliver and the Arrow is the biggest thing preventing him from being with Felicity right now and he really needs to have a lightbulb moment soonish or I really don't know what they're doing.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

I'd settle for sex right now, and the lightbulb moment later.  Like wonderwall said, it can be his equivalent of Ray figuring out the suit post-sex.

 

Given the rate that Oliver has been figuring out his stuff this season, we're going to be in season 8 before he finally gets it all together and is ready for a relationship with Felicity. I. CAN'T. WAIT.THAT. LONG.

 

I mean really, he's figured out that Thea is important to him and he'll do anything to save her. He's figured out that he needs Diggle by his side to keep him thinking straight, as Diggle said way back in 1x04 when he signed on.  He's even figured out that he can't abandon Roy, the guy's he's mentoring. Okay, maybe he hasn't totally figured that out given he walked away from poor electrocuted Roy but you know what I mean.

 

All these are him being Oliver Queen, not The Arrow.  But it seems like figuring out the Felicity situation is impossible for him.  So at this point, my vote goes to sex first, then figure it out. If he needs to draw back to do the figuring, okay.

 

But first he needs to know exactly what he's going to be fighting for.

[wonderwall]

I was asked on tumblr to sort Team Arrow into different hogwarts houses and I found something interesting: 

 

Here are the characteristics I based the answers on: 

Gryffindor values bravery, daring, nerve, and chivalry
Hufflepuff values hard work, patience, loyalty, and fair play
Ravenclaw values intelligence, knowledge, and wit
Slytherin house values ambition, cunning and resourcefulness

Oliver Queen: Gryffindor
Felicity Smoak: Ravenclaw
John Diggle: Hufflepuff
Roy Harper: Gryffindor/Hufflepuff

 

This is interesting because it sort of shows why Original Team Arrow works so well. They all bring in different strengths and different traits which is why people value the original team so much.

Edited March 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[Ang]

At this point, I can't get behind the sex-first-issues-later thing because I am completely convinced that would mean Felicity cheating on Ray with Oliver. On a personal level, I'd find that extremely distasteful, but I also think it would signify an attempt by TIIC to kill off Olicity. They'll make it as toxic as Lauriver, and that will kill the fun if it, and that would just be such a waste.

[Chaser]

The only way I would be okay with Oliver and Felicity having sex this season is if Ray and Felicity are broken up before, Oliver and Felicity have an honest conversation laying everything on the table, and they commit to each other. Outside forces can separate them, but the commitment between them is there.

 

If they sleep together before Ray and Felicity break up, Oliver or Felicity holds back with the honesty and Oliver or Felicity ditches due to issues then its a repeat of Oliver and Laurel S1.

[wonderwall]

Yep. I'm not on board with cheating no matter how much I love the ship and how much I hate Ray. Also I want Felicity to break up with Ray for HERSELF and not for Oliver. This is why I want them to break up in episode 18/19. 

[areca]

What is this retconning of Felicity?  Does she have to become unlikeable in order for the fucking endgame with Laurel?  I mean, she's oozing more sex and physical desire toward Oliver in the last 2-3 episodes than she ever has, even when she really wanted to be with him.  She's also really 'soft' in a completely unbelievable manner, which has nothing to do with Felicity.  She's not making good decisions, and she's pretty much the trope of the helpless female victim.  Which incidentally, Oliver didn't say 'let's end this,' she did.  'I don't want to be another woman you love Oliver' - after walking out on him angrily.  They've taken even that strength away from her.  I am very unhappy with this bullshit.  Felicity was the best character on the damn show.

[calliope1975]

Given the rate that Oliver has been figuring out his stuff this season, we're going to be in season 8 before he finally gets it all together and is ready for a relationship with Felicity. I. CAN'T. WAIT.THAT. LONG.

 

I agree. Given the way this show is going, there will be something new next season to keep them apart. I need some smidge of happiness, for me, before I quit watching so bring on the sexcapades!

[wonderwall]

What is this retconning of Felicity?  Does she have to become unlikeable in order for the fucking endgame with Laurel?  I mean, she's oozing more sex and physical desire toward Oliver in the last 2-3 episodes than she ever has, even when she really wanted to be with him.  She's also really 'soft' in a completely unbelievable manner, which has nothing to do with Felicity.  She's not making good decisions, and she's pretty much the trope of the helpless female victim.  Which incidentally, Oliver didn't say 'let's end this,' she did.  'I don't want to be another woman you love Oliver' - after walking out on him angrily.  They've taken even that strength away from her.  I am very unhappy with this bullshit.  Felicity was the best character on the damn show.

 

IMO it's all to make Ray relevant. Well, mostly because they're thirsty for that spinoff series. I don't think it has anything to do with Laurel. If you think about it, most of the time she's been 'out of character' has been when she was with Ray or talking about him or whatever. 

 

And sue me but I sort of like the flirtiness between O/F in episode 16. In episode 17 it didn't make sense. But that's probably just me. 

[Genki]

Ideal scenario: Felicity dumps Ray, then something life or death comes up. Honest conversation, Oliver & Felicity taking time to finally be with eachother, with cuddling and cuteness and postcoital glow, before outside forces seperate them for the hiatus.

And I think I really want them to be physically seperated during hiatus because I want proper relationship development and issue sorting ON SCREEN! Not in the bloody 3.5 comics.

[wonderwall]

Best case scenario for the 3.5 comics or season 4 Oliver spends time with the LoA in Nanda Parbat learning the ins and outs of the organization while Felicity and Diggle try to find a way to take down the LoA in Starling and keep in touch with Oliver every few weeks. Thus, Oliver and Felicity would be separated in the comics and when Oliver comes back to Starling it will be in season 4 and him and Felicity reunite and all is well. 

 

THIS IS ALL I WANT.

[lemotomato]

Best case scenario for the 3.5 comics or season 4 Oliver spends time with the LoA in Nanda Parbat learning the ins and outs of the organization while Felicity and Diggle try to find a way to take down the LoA in Starling and keep in touch with Oliver every few weeks. Thus, Oliver and Felicity would be separated in the comics and when Oliver comes back to Starling it will be in season 4 and him and Felicity reunite and all is well. 

 

THIS IS ALL I WANT.

I could live with this, as long as we get at least a make-out (I need another goddamn kiss that's not a dream, damnit!) or Oliver and Felicity promising each other that they'll figure out their relationship as soon as they get him out of the LoA. 

 

But if they're separated during the summer, then MG won't have anything to blackmail Olicity fans into buying the 3.5 comics, so... :P

[Carrie Ann]

Eh, they'd probably just insert a flashback to some other magical O/F moment we never got to see to sell copies.

[kismet]

I was asked on tumblr to sort Team Arrow into different hogwarts houses and I found something interesting: 

 

Here are the characteristics I based the answers on: 

Oliver Queen: Gryffindor

Felicity Smoak: Ravenclaw

John Diggle: Hufflepuff

Roy Harper: Gryffindor/Hufflepuff

 

This is interesting because it sort of shows why Original Team Arrow works so well. They all bring in different strengths and different traits which is why people value the original team so much.

Spot on for Oliver & Felicity. Not sure I see Diggle as Hufflepuff though, in my opinion he is Gryffindor. Roy is definitely Hufflepuff especially after he joined TA. I love these sorting projects when used outside the Harry Potter World. :)

[wonderwall]

I think it could definitely be a toss up! I just went with Hufflepuff because it's clear throughout the run of the series that Diggle's main traits are that he's trusting, honest, patient with Oliver, Loyal to the team, ridiculously hard working, and is the most fair person on the show (which is emphasized when he told Oliver he can't judge Roy differently than anyone else in episode 6). While Diggle IS brave and chivalrous, I think he most identifies with hufflepuff (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that :))

[statsgirl]

Well, Nanda Parbat does seem to have a magical inst-access to Starling City.  Oliver and Felicity could use that for the occasional get-together.

(Just as a side thought, I wonder what the 3.5 sales would be like if Laurel was in NP training with Nyssa while Felicity was with Diggle in Starling City.)

 

I just heard Judy Collins sing Send In The Clowns on the radio. Perfect for Oliver if he figures things out before Felicity breaks up with Ray - a song about a person finally figuring things out about who she loves and ready to start a relationship only to find out the other person had found someone else.

 

I really want Felicity to break up with Ray before the end of the season, and have something, if only a ONS with Oliver. There's been speculating that Ray could propose as a cliff-hanger but the Ray from Suicide Tendencies seemed far from that kind of guy.  And in terms of the show itself, I don't see what would be the gain to it other than to really annoy Olicity shippers and Felicity fans.  They need Ray "clean" for the spin-off -- Anna is enough of a romantic handicap, they don't need to add Felicity turning him down, or worse, saying yes and dragging the character down.

 

So here's really hoping Raylicity's clock is ticking down fast.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Best case scenario for the 3.5 comics or season 4 Oliver spends time with the LoA in Nanda Parbat learning the ins and outs of the organization while Felicity and Diggle try to find a way to take down the LoA in Starling and keep in touch with Oliver every few weeks.

I can't get behind this AT ALL.  The LOA is evil.  EVIL.  The hero of the show cannot just chill out as the head of an EVIL organization.  Yes, Ra's says they'd be cool with not killing (sorry, that's bullshit, and Ra's ain't exactly a trustworthy narrator).  This is the group Sara was fully willing to die rather than rejoin.  They may be a bit watered-down from the comics, and I love Nyssa as much as anyone and this Ra's is not that scary, but the LOA is evil and if Oliver joins with any plan other than destroying them ASAP, I will be forever out.  (Angel did it, but he did indeed plan to destroy Wolfram & Hart from the inside.)

 

 

[BkWurm1]

But I just imagined that she would go into the conversation being the strong independent intelligent woman of the last 3yrs and politely call him out on his accusations, but instead she apologized first.

 

Felicity's apology is one thing that doesn't bother me in the least.  She wants to be in a relationship, not  a negotiated position of power.  So he didn't deserve the apology as much as she did but it took nothing from her to make it because she wasn't saying "this was all my fault" she was expressing her shared unhappiness at the mess they'd just experienced.  It doesn't make her weak and it doesn't give Ray power over her.  The apology is fine since it's about opening a conversation, not declaring winners.

 

Where I was disappointed it that Felicity didn't bring up any of the issues that just arose, like how he was so quick to jump right to she's untrustworthy or that he'd expect her to betray someone else's secret.  These didn't have to be part of an argument but they should have been discussed and addressed before they could go back to the way things were. 

 

What we got instead was Felicity instantly forgiving Ray - which I actually don't have a problem with - but then sweeping the underlying issues that caused the problem between them under the rug - which I have a big problem with since the strong Felicity we know and love would have brought them up with Oliver, so we see a lesser version of herself when she is with Ray.

 

But maybe that's the point.  Maybe with Oliver she's always felt allowed to speak her mind to the point where she trusts now what she says won't drive him away.  Maybe she doesn't have that same kind of faith in Ray and is therefore more afraid of doing something that might shatter the pretense of everything still being "perfect" and her getting from the relationship "everything she's wanted". 

 

In a solid relationship they could have talked what happened over and shared their personal hang ups that triggered what happened and actually grown closer and come out of the fight stronger and more connected but what we saw instead was Felicity more interested in returning to the status quo and the fantasy that he could give her. 

 

 

About Oliver figuring out that yes, yes he can be with Felicity and still save the city.  I'm really starting to think he's not going to have this revelation at all this season.  Now Diggle seems to have moved over to Oliver's position and Oliver is just waiting for Ray to mess things up.  I still think we are going to get movement on the Oliicity front but I go back to my crazed theory that Oliver will go from can only be the Arrow (can't be with Felicity and save the city) to only being Oliver Queen, (can be with Felicity but won't be the one saving the city).  From a narrative stand point I think it makes sense but only if this whole Ra's mess is cleared up. 

 

Even if he does go full Oliver Queen it might be a choice he makes only for an episode or lol, less therefore keeping the action quotient up...though honestly I miss seeing action happen to Oliver Queen and not just a bunch of masks running around in the shadows.  That gets tiring fast. 

[kismet]

In a moment of clarity driving in my car today. I decided that by the end of the season.

 

Oliver needs to figure out his issues for himself ---- not to be with Felicity

Felicity needs to dump Ray for herself ---- not to be with Oliver

Ray needs to learn to accept rejection/failure ---- to be a more well rounded person

 

And yes after reading some of the recent posts, we do need another O&F lip on lip kiss and this one better be amazing and not part of dream/fantasy. But I think we could hold off on the sex only to avoid comparisons to LL s1. We've done enough repeat relationship beats this season, I think it should get its own placement in the timeline completely different from every other relationship on this show. But it needs to be on the screen and not in the comics.

Edited March 30, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

I really want Felicity to break up with Ray before the end of the season, and have something, if only a ONS with Oliver.

 

They could very well have her break up with Ray, send Oliver off with ...lets say a mind blowing kiss :p ;)  and then have Oliver do something incredibly stupid like set her free since if he got sucked into the LoA thing he'd assume he'd never get out or worse yet make her promise to give Ray another chance (cause by now Oliver and Ray have bonded and Oliver might wiggle on thinking someone else just not him could have it all)...and then have Ray show up again at the end and make some dumbass huge romantic gesture like ask Felicity to go away with him and maybe include  a proposal to show how serious an offer it is followed by Felicity perhaps agreeing since it's the last thing Oliver requested her to do. 

 

Yeah, I hate most of that idea too. 

Edited March 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Where I was disappointed it that Felicity didn't bring up any of the issues that just arose, like how he was so quick to jump right to she's untrustworthy or that he'd expect her to betray someone else's secret.  These didn't have to be part of an argument but they should have been discussed and addressed before they could go back to the way things were. 

 

What we got instead was Felicity instantly forgiving Ray - which I actually don't have a problem with - but then sweeping the underlying issues that caused the problem between them under the rug - which I have a big problem with since the strong Felicity we know and love would have brought them up with Oliver, so we see a lesser version of herself when she is with Ray.

Thanks for better verbalizing my issues with the apology. It wasn't so much that she did it first, but more importantly that she didn't address some pretty valid issues that needed to be at least acknowledged. But I wonder if she even realizes them? She seemed to think that he was all into this partnership thing, so maybe she forgot what he told her or is in denial? Sometimes it takes time for people in the relationship to realize the problems that are so apparent to people outside the relationship. But I also did not like that we didn't see Ray make the first attempt to apologize, because the type of guy I want for Felicity would try to apologize on his own, not just in response to her. I mean we know he knows how to ping her phone and clearly he has a means of transportation, so why did she have to go to him?

[AyChihuahua]

 

I still think we are going to get movement on the Oliicity front but I go back to my crazed theory that Oliver will go from can only be the Arrow (can't be with Felicity and save the city) to only being Oliver Queen, (can be with Felicity but won't be the one saving the city).

It's not a crazy idea, but it is EXACTLY what they did in the first episode of S2.  I mean, exactly...he came back to be Oliver Queen and save his family's company, and refused to vigilante any more.  Heck, the second episode was named Identity, and in it he addressed some identity issues.  

Edited March 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

They could very well have her break up with Ray, send Oliver off with ...lets say a mind blowing kiss :p ;)  and then have Oliver do something incredibly stupid like set her free since if he got sucked into the LoA thing he'd assume he'd never get out or worse yet make her promise to give Ray another chance (cause by now Oliver and Ray have bonded and Oliver might wiggle on thinking someone else just not him could have it all)...and then have Ray show up again at the end and make some dumbass huge romantic gesture like ask Felicity to go away with him and maybe include  a proposal to show how serious an offer it is followed by Felicity perhaps agreeing since it's the last thing Oliver requested her to do. 

 

Yeah, I hate most of that idea too. 

How did you know my response?

 

I can see Oliver doing that, but if Felicity accepts Ray then I'll have lost all respect for her.  I can forgive her what she's doing now, sort of, because she wants a relationship where she's a partner so very, very bad.  But if she hasn't figured out by the end of the season that what Ray says is very different from what Ray does, then she doesn't deserve any of that label for being a smart person.

 

MG said that they get a lot of mileage from Oliver having his head up his ass... what I can't forgive is they doing it to Felicity too.

[BkWurm1]

But I also did not like that we didn't see Ray make the first attempt to apologize, because the type of guy I want for Felicity would try to apologize on his own, not just in response to her. I mean we know he knows how to ping her phone and clearly he has a means of transportation, so why did she have to go to him?

 

I would have liked it better too if he'd come to her first but we weren't allowed to know how much time had passed.  He very well might have been siting there thinking how long he'd have to wait until Felicity would even be willing to talk to him and I honestly didn't feel like he only apologized because she did....and yet it would have been very much better if he'd gone to her.  Sigh. 

I can see Oliver doing that, but if Felicity accepts Ray then I'll have lost all respect for her.  I can forgive her what she's doing now, sort of, because she wants a relationship where she's a partner so very, very bad.  But if she hasn't figured out by the end of the season that what Ray says is very different from what Ray does, then she doesn't deserve any of that label for being a smart person.

 

Sadly I'm not convinced the show knows that they are showing Ray as the bad choice that we're seeing.  So based on that, I won't be able to hold it against Felicity if for some reason she gives Ray another chance after an initial break up.  Still won't like it though. 

[calliope1975]

Sadly I'm not convinced the show knows that they are showing Ray as the bad choice that we're seeing.  

 

Exactly. They don't see anything problematic about Ray. He's not a stalker. He's the better version of Oliver. He's a hero who can have it all. So they're writing Felicity in response to their, erroneous for me, beliefs about Ray. I know the way they are writing her is canon, because it is happening, but I can't fault the Felicity I've fallen in love with over 2 years because they're twisting her behavior to fit the narrative of "hero" they've already decided they've written well. 

 

I know that doesn't make much sense, but it does in my head. It's also why I'd rather just skip her scenes with Ray then have that color my image of Felicity. 

[tennisgurl]

Note to the writers...the power of three will set you free!

 

I`m sorry, but if there was ever a time and a place for a Charmed reference, its now. 

 

I could see Dig as a Hufflepuff, especially with his loyalty and kindness. Plus, he is very good at finding things! 

[Ang]

Where I was disappointed it that Felicity didn't bring up any of the issues that just arose, like how he was so quick to jump right to she's untrustworthy or that he'd expect her to betray someone else's secret. These didn't have to be part of an argument but they should have been discussed and addressed before they could go back to the way things were.

What we got instead was Felicity instantly forgiving Ray - which I actually don't have a problem with - but then sweeping the underlying issues that caused the problem between them under the rug - which I have a big problem with since the strong Felicity we know and love would have brought them up with Oliver, so we see a lesser version of herself when she is with Ray.

But maybe that's the point. Maybe with Oliver she's always felt allowed to speak her mind to the point where she trusts now what she says won't drive him away. Maybe she doesn't have that same kind of faith in Ray and is therefore more afraid of doing something that might shatter the pretense of everything still being "perfect" and her getting from the relationship "everything she's wanted".

In a solid relationship they could have talked what happened over and shared their personal hang ups that triggered what happened and actually grown closer and come out of the fight stronger and more connected but what we saw instead was Felicity more interested in returning to the status quo and the fantasy that he could give her.

I really like all your insights here (and in the parts I didn't quote), and the thing that's making me crazy is I can't tell what the writers want me to believe. Are we supposed to believe Ray when he says he's been honest? Are we supposed to believe that the partnership he and Felicity are spouting off about is a genuine thing that we're actually seeing develop? Or are we supposed to notice Ray talking big about honesty but keeping Felicity out of the loop, and Felicity failing to notice or speak up about issues like trustworthiness and inclusion? Am I supposed to notice that he's all talk, and that she is less when she is with him? Or is that just a flaw in the writing?

I am really curious how this is all going to work out, and I suspect the theory above is right; we'll get a proposal cliffhanger and won't know how it'll all work out until well beyond the end of the season.

ETA, I realize this has already been addressed and discussed, but every time I think about it it makes me crazy. I'm ready to beg someone with a tumblr account to ask MG if we're supposed to be taking Ray at his word or noticing the inconsistency between what he says and what he does.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ang

[lemotomato]

ETA, I realize this has already been addressed and discussed, but every time I think about it it makes me crazy. I'm ready to beg someone with a tumblr account to ask MG if we're supposed to be taking Ray at his word or noticing the inconsistency between what he says and what he does.

I did send him an ask listing all the things Ray kept from Felicity (he kept the suit a secret until she threatened to quit, he didn't tell her the suit worked, he took her facial recognition software without asking, etc) and how he could claim he was upfront with Felicity from the beginning. But MG chose to answer a questions about Ray's popularity instead, because then he could just make a blanket statement about why some fans don't like him rather than address specific examples of Ray's character flaws.

[Ang]

I did send him an ask listing all the things Ray kept from Felicity (he kept the suit a secret until she threatened to quit, he didn't tell her the suit worked, he took her facial recognition software without asking, etc) and how he could claim he was upfront with Felicity from the beginning. But MG chose to answer a questions about Ray's popularity instead, because then he could just make a blanket statement about why some fans don't like him rather than address specific examples of Ray's character flaws.

<sigh> Of course he did. The thing is, I don't really care which it is. Obviously I'd prefer it if it were intentional and they were subtly(ish) showing the cracks in this relationship, because that's better writing/creativity and makes me feel better about wasting my time watching (and reading/writing/thinking about) this show. But in the end, it is just a show, and I can ignore glaring inconsistencies if I have to. If MG and the writers are going to have a social media relationship with the audience, then I really wish they'd use it to show what they're thinking since they're utterly failing to do that using, you know, their actual product.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ang