Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

Who said go to hell? Laurel?

Sigh.

[apinknightmare]

Who said go to hell? Laurel?

Sigh.

 

Haha, yes.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Oh, so that happened in this episode?  I thought you were talking about the "Hallway from Hell" scene back in season 2.  Lovely.

Edited February 12, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[apinknightmare]

Oh, so that happened in this episode?  I thought you were talking about the "Hallway from Hell" scene back in season 2.  Lovely.

 

Yes. Oliver told Laurel she was an addict, she told him to go to hell. He told her she was chasing an adrenaline high to make her feel better and hiding from the pain, she told him he couldn't judge because if anyone was using a mask to hide from feelings it was him. 

 

Which...spot on, Laurel. But still. Always and forever a couple of assholes around each other.

[BkWurm1]

Anyone else beginning to dread when they cut to the alleyway outside Verdant?  It had such promise when it was Diggle smacking down Malcolm and now it's just the all purpose hissy fit slash hook up spot. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[NumberCruncher]

Yes. Oliver told Laurel she was an addict, she told him to go to hell. He told her she was chasing an adrenaline high to make her feel better and hiding from the pain, she told him he couldn't judge because if anyone was using a mask to hide from feelings it was him. 

 

Which...spot on, Laurel. But still. Always and forever a couple of assholes around each other.

But...soulmates!

[tennisgurl]

I guess the Powers That Be got their ANGST couple again. Oh joy. 

[kismet]

Its not really arrow-y, but let's face it the show has been arrow light in past weeks. Anyway, in light of KC's most recent enlightening thoughts on the triangular status of Arrow, Dawson Creek has been coming up in threads. Anyway, EOnline has been posting some romantic lists for Vday, the most recent one I was perusing it, was "20 couples that never got together and the audience never forgave them for..." Secretly hoping that I will never see either Olicity or Lauriver, on any future version of this list for completely opposite reasons. So I made it to the end where I see Dawson & Joey. At first, I was a little stunned until I read the caption "LOL. JK.". Its been a little over a decade and that epic fail of intended romantic pairing is still amusing people & making lists for all the ironic reasons. Beyond a few people claiming it was meant to be because of the pilot or the story that creators had came up with yrs prior, the fact is very few audience members actually wanted it or wanted it enough that they would miss it when it never came to be. It truly was a Titanic of a "ship". But hey, it got me laughing. And history does repeat itself, so who knows maybe KC is right about the whole O&L "soulmate" thing. She's referenced DC before, maybe she just forgot how it ended? Or maybe she's becoming more meta, now that she wears a mask? Another major flaw she forgot to analyze when she brought up the comparison, even if she thinks she's Joey (she's not), shes most definitely the Dawson of any F/O/L triangle, maybe even broader she might be the Dawson of the show? Oliver is the Joey & Felicity is the Pacey. Let's face it, it might have been his creek, but Joey was the main character of the story. And we all know Arrow is not Arrow without Oliver. Heck they killed him & they still had him on air in flashbacks. From "the grave" he was flash-backing himself.

 

I believe this is the right thread, sorry if its not... not sure where to place it. http://www.eonline.com/photos/15132/20-tv-couples-that-didn-t-end-up-together-and-we-ll-never-get-over-it/460958

Edited February 12, 2015 by kismet

[quarks]

So now that the adjusted numbers are out, for total viewers:

 

Uprising, total viewers, 2.94.  Felicity tells Oliver she doesn't want to be a woman he loves; Laurel takes steps towards being his partner. Next episode, total views fall to 2.67, for a 9% drop in total viewers.

 

On its own, this doesn't mean much for Oliver/Felicity or Oliver/Laurel.  It's entirely possible that viewers just didn't like the thought of an Oliver/Malcolm teamup, or they wanted to watch the wrestling event or American Idol. But it's yet another example of the general trend of the number of viewers slipping whenever Felicity and Oliver seem to be calling things off, and the number of viewers dropping whenever Oliver and Laurel seem to be a possibility again.  Things could certainly change later, but at the moment, I don't think it really matters if the showrunners do secretly or not so secretly want Oliver and Laurel together; if they want that, they're going to have to go through CW executives.

[statsgirl]

I love the way you try to make it all better, quarks.

[looptab]

LOL, I must have been one of the three poor souls on earth that shipped Dawson&Joey. Not so much that I hated Pacey&Joey, I just never cared for them and besides I loved Pacey with Andy. So I was disappointed whit what they did with them.(Also the best friend-betrayal didn't sit well with me).

 

Anyway, re: the L/O alley scene. I'm not sure I understand what that particular exchange -you're an addict/go to hell- should be exemplificative of? Yeah they're both awful to each other. yet he's the one bringing up her struggle with addiction (not saying he didn't have a point, just that it was a low blow), what was she supposed to say?

I'm not bringing this up to argue, just trying to see your POVs. :) 

[wonderwall]

I guess the difference between Oliver/Laurel arguing in this episode and Oliver/Felicity arguing is that Oliver/Laurel both took potshots at each other. Oliver brought up Laurel's alcoholism and tried to use it against Laurel, which is so wrong, then Laurel insinuated that Oliver only goes out at night to ease the pain which is also unbelievably wrong and goes to show Laurel knows nothing about Oliver and his life right now. Oliver goes out at night to honor the 50000 people in his life that have died. 

 

But Oliver/Felicity arguing? Well it's more civil. They didn't hit below the belt because they have enough respect for each other not to. Felicity, while she did yell at him, brought up some good points and stood strong, and Oliver listened to her. And by listened to her, I mean he really internalized what she said and backed off because he knew she was right. Because that’s how much Felicity affects him. That’s how much Oliver values her opinion.

 

With Oliver/Felicity, it's not about winning, whereas with Oliver/Laurel it is about winning. Therein lies the difference between the two. And that's why I root for one couple and honestly, severely detest the other. 

 

otp material:

 

Edited February 13, 2015 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Dawson and Laurel are pretty much the exact same character archetype imo. They're supposed to be ~Good and Wonderful~ beacons of niceness, but end up onscreen as unintended self-involved, self-absorbed, entitled brats that never ever consider other people's feelings because their brain mode is stuck on I Me Mine 24/7.

[looptab]

I guess the difference between Oliver/Laurel arguing in this episode and Oliver/Felicity arguing is that Oliver/Laurel both took potshots at each other. Oliver brought up Laurel's alcoholism and tried to use it against Laurel, which is so wrong, then Laurel insinuated that Oliver only goes out at night to ease the pain which is also unbelievably wrong and goes to show Laurel knows nothing about Oliver and his life right now. Oliver goes out at night to honor the 50000 people in his life that have died. 

 

I'd say that Laurel wasn't that far from the truth when she said that to Oliver. Sure, all he went through and the people he honors by fighting etc are still the principle behind his mission, but isn't the whole point of this season the fact that he avoids being Oliver by being the Arrow? It's not that dissimilar -at least in content-from what Felicity said in "Sara" - " I know it's easier to live under the hood". 

 

BTW, I wasn't trying to compare the two arguments, but I see your point, and I agree, to a certain extent. It's just that I don't see what was so terrible about her "go to hell", especially after he brought up her lowest moment and used it against her because she wasn't doing what he said. (And I was on his side!)

[kismet]

LOL, I must have been one of the three poor souls on earth that shipped Dawson&Joey. Not so much that I hated Pacey&Joey, I just never cared for them and besides I loved Pacey with Andy. So I was disappointed whit what they did with them.(Also the best friend-betrayal didn't sit well with me).

Anyway, re: the L/O alley scene. I'm not sure I understand what that particular exchange -you're an addict/go to hell- should be exemplificative of? Yeah they're both awful to each other. yet he's the one bringing up her struggle with addiction (not saying he didn't have a point, just that it was a low blow), what was she supposed to say?

I'm not bringing this up to argue, just trying to see your POVs. :)

Sorry, never meant to hurt ur DJ ship! I liked pacey & Andy too, similar to Sara/Oliver, the relationship made sense & was good for them until it was not & they grew out of it. TBH, I think DC handled the whole D/J/P relationship beautifully & authentically. That finale was amazing. I feel like they always had the audience's interests, intelligence & emotions at heart. They might have changed courses but the didnt forget about what they had done with their characters & tried to resolve it the best way they could with out too much damage too much damage to their plot/characters. They were sophisticated & delicate with how they handled them.

This season the arrow writers seem to lack that delicate hand and rather are just throwing around the anvils, truth bombs & guttering emotional cores of their characters. To me that doesn't always make sense. Everyone this season was either lying to themselves or crying. Some scenes came off emotional raw which was good, both alley way arguments were good & within characters. What Oliver said made sense & how Laurel responded made sense. But I think it does highlight the current difference in the fo & lo current relationships. LO argument was about them as individuals because they seem themselves as separate people. They are no longer linked, they may still care about each other but they are autonomous & could honestly probably care less if the other disagrees with them. They are not seeking each others approval. If this disagreement ends their relationship/friendship they would simply walk away no regrets. FO on the other hand, I believe still consider themselves a unit, so the argument was more about them & there are higher stakes at play simply because both of them care about the us, not just themselves. I admire felicity that she put the kabosh on them for the moment. Oliver responded in kind by standing there and taking the hit because 1 he was shocked/hurt & 2 he always listens to felicity & values her opinion. FO argument was about trying to break down each others' walls & use the love they have for each other to reach the other person and get them to see why they might be wrong. They're both invested in the other person's decision because it directly impacts them, there is no easy way of walking away from each other, like there is for L&O. They are just in different types of relationships at the moment. I thought both alley arguments were spot on. Writers delivered truth bombs successfully in both of those scenes.

Which only makes it so frustrating when they screw up other scenes like the whole light comment from felicity. They were doing well with that scene bringing f&l together naturally without any collateral damage & then they decided to bring in bus by which to throw Sara under. I feel like they almost need a character moderator to read over scripts & find these tipping points where the writing goes little too far. They're not good with recognizing some of their errors. Its like mg with his underestimation of so many of the audiences reactions. If this is a growing theme, perhaps they need to bring someone in just to breeze over the scripts. I'm not saying that need to change the characters or their plots per se, but the audience week after week shouldn't have to turn to tumblr to figure out the narrative or the characters' motives. I understand angst & character evolution. I'm just not sure that is always what they're serving.

Edited February 13, 2015 by kismet

[looptab]

LOL don't worry, I wasn't that invested:) I guess I'm a sucker for best friends-turn-lovers stories, :)

 

I'm choosing to ignore that Felicity's speech even had a light comment, it's on my mind's cutting-room's floor.

[statsgirl]

I'd say that Laurel wasn't that far from the truth when she said that to Oliver. Sure, all he went through and the people he honors by fighting etc are still the principle behind his mission, but isn't the whole point of this season the fact that he avoids being Oliver by being the Arrow? It's not that dissimilar -at least in content-from what Felicity said in "Sara" - " I know it's easier to live under the hood". (And I was on his side!)

It was the bringing up the lowest point for each of them that makes it seem toxic.  There are courses in how to fight fair, which you're going to have to do if you want to stay together as a couple.  When Felicity and Oliver fight, they fight fair. When Laurel and Oliver do, they don't.

[Morrigan2575]

But... wasn't she? I feel like this is more a case of the writers changing their minds and deciding they'd rather do "guy pines for girl" instead of "girl pines for guy", than of the audience and critics misreading the situation.

Nope. IMO the whole Felicity pines for Oliver was a fan and media construct. The media chose that trope in S1/2 because they were certain the show was going to follow comics, so Felicity was painted in the Chloe role, the good friend/sidekick who pines for the hero but can't have him. Lauiver fans used the same construct to show that Olicity could never happen. The show IMO never demonstrated that Felicity pined for Oliver, attracted to him, yes. Cares for him, yes. there are only 2 times in this show (pre 223) where we even saw Felicity react to Oliver being with another woman, 206 (Isabel where she was hurt and slightly jealous) and 209 (Fantasy Island line). Even in 213 Felicity wasn't jealous of O/S she was insecure of her place in the group.

I'd also point out in 206, Oliver also hints at emotions beyond friendship, first in his reaction after Felicity walks away in Russia and later with his "life I lead speech". In 210 Oliver is jealous of Felicity spending time with Barry (that is text).

ETA: I should add that I'm sure some Olicity fans liked this narrative as well, it's a popular trope, John Hughes made a fortune off of it.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think they expected Oliver to get all hate, because they viewd Felicity as 'untouchable' for the audience. They made sure they audience knew that Oliver loves Felicity, that this is hurting him and so on. I don't think they felt they needed to tell her side. I mean how many critics and fans where so sure she was pining for him for two seasons.

 

If they had actually taken the time to give Felicity a POV I don't think we would be seeing this kind of reaction.

 

 

I've been wondering if they aren't allowing Felicity to voice her feelings because they want everything to come out after she (probably) starts dating Ray.  So it will be played as this big moment or some enlightening admission of her romantic feelings for Oliver.  Basically, you know, I can see them explaining that they did it for "drama."  That's what everything seems to boil down to.  "For drama" or "it looked cool."

[apinknightmare]

I've been wondering if they aren't allowing Felicity to voice her feelings because they want everything to come out after she (probably) starts dating Ray.  So it will be played as this big moment or some enlightening admission of her romantic feelings for Oliver.  Basically, you know, I can see them explaining that they did it for "drama."  That's what everything seems to boil down to.  "For drama" or "it looked cool."

 

I think they haven't told Felicity's side for two reasons: 1) they wanted to bring Ray in as one side of a triangle, and Felicity dating Ray after telling Oliver she loved him would be an even tougher sell than her dating him when we know she loves him. I think it's some half-assed way of trying to protect her from hate when she and Ray eventually get together, and 2) because she's going to tell Oliver that she loves him when he's teetering on the brink of something: either completely losing himself, dying, or standing on the edge of some other kind of moral precipice that those words are going to pull him back from.

Edited February 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

I've been wondering if they aren't allowing Felicity to voice her feelings because they want everything to come out after she (probably) starts dating Ray.  So it will be played as this big moment or some enlightening admission of her romantic feelings for Oliver.  Basically, you know, I can see them explaining that they did it for "drama."  That's what everything seems to boil down to.  "For drama" or "it looked cool."

I feel that is what's gonna happen. She'll date Ray, realize she loves Oliver and is projecting feelings for Oliver onto Ray.

[TanyaKay]

I think they haven't told Felicity's side for two reasons: 1) they wanted to bring Ray in as one side of a triangle, and Felicity dating Ray after telling Oliver she loved him would be an even tougher sell than her dating him when we know she loves him. I think it's some half-assed way of trying to protect her from hate when she and Ray eventually get together, and 2) because she's going to tell Oliver that she loves him when he's teetering on the brink of something: either completely losing himself, dying, or standing on the edge of some other kind of moral precipice that those words are going to pull him back from.

 

The beauty of Olicity in last 2 seasons was that it was free of stupid tropes. They were just two individuals who slowly discovered that they have a lot of respect and admiration for each other and that they were attracted to each other and were inching towards something more. Come season 3 and the writers started writing them as a couple and started applying all kinds of tropes on them - right down to the worst of them all - hero walking in on his lady love kissing some other dude.

 

Now they want Felicity's 'I love you' to bring him back from some kind of precipice when they have already done that in season 2 finale when she told him that he need not be a killer anymore and offered to be bait to Slade in order to cure him of his mirakuru rage. It was beautiful and organic and we all loved it. Now they will rehash it and will probably make it more melodramatic which is the antithesis of what makes Olicity so special. Oliver and Felicity were never melodramatic - they were understated and glorious because of that.

Something happened to that wonderful understated glorious romance the minute they decided to write it as one. These writers are so not capable of handling a decent romantic storyline without resorting to most tropey of dramatics. The only thing that is saving them so far is the top notch chemistry between Stephen and Emily. They can sell vegetables on screen and make it look convincing and passionate.

Edited February 17, 2015 by TanyaKay

[blixie]

Sorry I'm just not buying the idealogical distinctions being made between them. Felicity is pissed because he's already OVER some defined precipice in her mind, one that makes  him UNDATEABLE, not worth her romantic investment, but she's just fine continuing to work with him despite this huge idealogical divide? Sorry no. It's all a load of burningly stupid bullshit.

[wonderwall]

Sorry I'm just not buying the idealogical distinctions being made between them. Felicity is pissed because he's already OVER some defined precipice in her mind, one that makes  him UNDATEABLE, not worth her romantic investment, but she's just fine continuing to work with him despite this huge idealogical divide? Sorry no. It's all a load of burningly stupid bullshit.

Felicity nor the team are working with Malcolm though. This is Oliver's mission. This is his fight. Because that's what he made it when he decided to work with Malcolm. Felicity isn't working with Malcolm and neither is the team especially when it comes to other missions. Because there are other missions other crimes to stop. Felicity is still in the team because she wants to help save Starling. To help keep people safe. Her mission isn't about Oliver anymore nor is it about his issues. That's what episode 11 was all about. For her to stop help saving people because of Malcolm (who she isn't working with) when there's so much more at stake would be kind of petty. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

and offered to be bait to Slade in order to cure him of his mirakuru rage.

 

I'm still of the mind that she accepted the job once she was handed that needle, not that she made any offer to be bait.   

 

Someday I'd love to have the official truth. 

[calliope1975]

I'm still of the mind that she accepted the job once she was handed that needle, not that she made any offer to be bait.   

 

Someday I'd love to have the official truth. 

 

I'm like 99.9% sure EBR said she didn't know about the ruse until she was handed the syringe. I don't know that I'll ever find that quote, though. (And that's EBR's take not anything actually said on the show.)

[apinknightmare]

I'm like 99.9% sure EBR said she didn't know about the ruse until she was handed the syringe. I don't know that I'll ever find that quote, though. (And that's EBR's take not anything actually said on the show.)

 

She did say that - I think it was at the upfronts (or some event) right after the finale aired.

[TanyaKay]

I'm like 99.9% sure EBR said she didn't know about the ruse until she was handed the syringe. I don't know that I'll ever find that quote, though. (And that's EBR's take not anything actually said on the show.)

But I cannot imagine that Oliver Queen came up with that idea all by himself. I have maintained that Felicity was in on the secret because it was a smart idea and she is the one who comes up with all the smart ideas. Secondly, not telling Felicity about the plan makes Oliver a giant douche nozzle and I don't want him to be a douche nozzle so my head cannon says she was in on the plan to dupe Slade.

Edited February 17, 2015 by TanyaKay

[quarks]

The script has a pretty strong indication that she didn't know, though: Oliver's "Do you understand?" which is not "Ok, your short skirts finally got to me," but asking her if she's ok with the plan.  Felicity's never been a strong actress, and beyond my little fanwank that he wasn't sure if he could go through with it (that's not actually in the script, but I like it) I think he wanted to make sure that her reactions were believable. He couldn't trust to her acting.

 

Second, we've seen several times before that Oliver's a strategist.  He's amazingly awful in his personal life, I think we can all agree, and I completely understand why the Queen Consolidated board took one look at him and said, uh, yeah, we're going for the creepy Ray Palmer guy, and not just because that guy has a PhD, and it's canon that Oliver spent his college years partying instead of showing up in class, but we've also seen that he speaks several languages and can plan well in advance - often without letting others in on his plans.  He did this to Diggle a couple of times in the first season.

 

Sure, it makes him a jerk, but Oliver's often a total jerk. It's in character.

[jay741982]

Whaaat?! What about "But I love him! He's my maaan!" LOL

That was funny! DR was trying hard not to laugh

[Chaser]

That whole episode was golden for Team Arrow. Classic. Sigh

[apinknightmare]

Sure, it makes him a jerk, but Oliver's often a total jerk. It's in character.

 

Yep. 

 

Plus, he obviously knew he was being surveilled in the mansion and who knows where else, and he knew that Slade had him bugged, so it would make sense that he also wouldn't feel safe telling her the plan at any point for fear that he wouldn't know who was listening.

[jay741982]

That whole episode was golden for Team Arrow. Classic. Sigh

I know :( from the felicity/Diggle scene where She said that, the scene where Oliver knocked those papers away from that guy hitting on Felicity, her pumping her fist in the air lol

[NumberCruncher]

That episode just reminds me how very few LOL moments the show has now. That's not a good thing.

[Ang]

But I cannot imagine that Oliver Queen came up with that idea all by himself. I have maintained that Felicity was in on the secret because it was a smart idea and she is the one who comes up with all the smart ideas. Secondly, not telling Felicity about the plan makes Oliver a giant douche nozzle and I don't want him to be a douche nozzle so my head cannon says she was in on the plan to dupe Slade.

I always assumed he came up with the plan, but I hoped he at least indicated, if only nonverbally, that there was a plan and that she should play along, likewise because it makes him less of a douche nozzle.

Speaking of which, I'm sure I missed a dozen discussions on this already, but can I just say how much better I like the way Unthinkable plays with the kiss included? Without the kiss, the way Felicity confronts him on the island is rather unjustified, which makes her achingly vulnerable in bringing it up. And then, as I saw it when I first watched it, he just stands there, SMIRKING at this sweet awkward girl, and the only thing he says sounds an awful lot like, "Yeah, so thanks for being so totally and obviously into me that I could use you to trick a super villain." I HATED that scene.

With the kiss, Felicity bringing it up makes more sense, Oliver smiles as he remembers the kiss and implies that they both enjoyed it. It's so much more palatable and makes him so much less douche-y. It also makes the date in 3x01 feel less like the writers were just pandering to Olicity shippers with one hand while flipping them the bird with the other.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Ang

[Danny Franks]

I've never even considered it a possibility that Felicity knew about the plan before the scene that was shown. She seemed too honestly surprised and taken aback by Oliver's confession, and suddenly scared when he handed her the syringe. I think it was all Oliver's thinking, based on Felicity's plea for him to "find another way".

 

Does it make him a jerk? Sure. Is it typical television artistic licence that he wouldn't say anything off-screen that would clue Felicity in? Absolutely.

[apinknightmare]

With the kiss, Felicity bringing it up makes more sense, Oliver smiles as he remembers the kiss and implies that they both enjoyed it. It's so much more palatable and makes him so much less douche-y. It also makes the date in 3x01 feel less like the writers were just pandering to Olicity shippers with one hand while flipping them the bird with the other.

 

 

See, I think the kiss makes the whole thing more douchey. I suppose it was soured for me from the get go because there isn't a doubt in my mind that she didn't know what he was doing - knowing that their comms were bugged and that Slade had at least one set of cameras on them, it makes sense that he wouldn't feel safe telling her. Then there's the whole slipping her the syringe thing which he wouldn't have risked doing in the mansion where there was the chance Slade could've seen it if he'd clued her into anything before hand.

 

He tells her he loves her, then leans in for the kiss and at least has the decency to let her go the 10%, then as she's gripping his freaking arm because she's clearly into it, he slips a syringe in her pocket. Ugh, then she's standing there looking at him all dopey (and yeah, I'll give him credit for looking dopey too) and he kills it by saying, "Do you understand?" (that there are cameras and I'm using you as bait to get this psycho to come and get you so you can get close enough to stab him in the jugular). Douche move, totally. But Oliver is often times a huge douche. 

 

Even with the kiss factored in I got the impression that his "we both did" comment was a way of letting her off the hook for buying into/being into it. I didn't get a "I enjoyed that too" vibe from it so much as him using it as a way to take away some of the sting of embarrassment she might have felt for thinking that it was real. Regardless though, IMO it's still a douche move whether he meant it or not, because he still did all of that and then let her think it wasn't real. 

[Ang]

See, I think the kiss makes the whole thing more douchey. I suppose it was soured for me from the get go because there isn't a doubt in my mind that she didn't know what he was doing - knowing that their comms were bugged and that Slade had at least one set of cameras on them, it makes sense that he wouldn't feel safe telling her. Then there's the whole slipping her the syringe thing which he wouldn't have risked doing in the mansion where there was the chance Slade could've seen it if he'd clued her into anything before hand.

He tells her he loves her, then leans in for the kiss and at least has the decency to let her go the 10%, then as she's gripping his freaking arm because she's clearly into it, he slips a syringe in her pocket. Ugh, then she's standing there looking at him all dopey (and yeah, I'll give him credit for looking dopey too) and he kills it by saying, "Do you understand?" (that there are cameras and I'm using you as bait to get this psycho to come and get you so you can get close enough to stab him in the jugular). Douche move, totally. But Oliver is often times a huge douche.

Even with the kiss factored in I got the impression that his "we both did" comment was a way of letting her off the hook for buying into/being into it. I didn't get a "I enjoyed that too" vibe from it so much as him using it as a way to take away some of the sting of embarrassment she might have felt for thinking that it was real. Regardless though, IMO it's still a douche move whether he meant it or not, because he still did all of that and then let her think it wasn't real.

You make many good points. Unfortunately. ;-) I think I'm going to hold on to the relief I felt when I saw the deleted scene and that wretched scene at the end finally lost some of it's stench for me, though, because I have a hard enough time with Oliver the way it is. Edited February 18, 2015 by Ang

[Tangerine]

Whaaat?! What about "But I love him! He's my maaan!" LOL

 

Siiigh. The good old days.

 

Myself and others have said it, but Thea and Roy have the most mature relationship on this show. I like that they're supportive friends despite their romantic history and can totally see them finding their way back to each other later down the line.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Tangerine

[kismet]

I think they haven't told Felicity's side for two reasons: 1) they wanted to bring Ray in as one side of a triangle, and Felicity dating Ray after telling Oliver she loved him would be an even tougher sell than her dating him when we know she loves him. I think it's some half-assed way of trying to protect her from hate when she and Ray eventually get together, and 2) because she's going to tell Oliver that she loves him when he's teetering on the brink of something: either completely losing himself, dying, or standing on the edge of some other kind of moral precipice that those words are going to pull him back from.

Which is why its so annoying that they decided to bring in Ray as a potential LI. Its  weak characterization to think the only way you can introduce a character on a show is to have him be a LI & a direct romantic competitor for the main character - esp if you want that character to have a potential spin-off. I personally think it sullied both Ray & Felicity. Imagine what the reception could have been to Ray, if fans were not waiting for the other shoe to drop. Its one thing if the actors start working together & the chemistry is palpable that you might alter the course (ahem... olicity), its another thing if the romantic tension/flirtation is written in from the beginning as it is with R&F. When I remove Ray as the obligatory 3rd piece of a triangle, I actually could see how he might have a place on the show, albeit as a recurring not regular star, could even be heavily recurring. But once you place him in that triangle spot, he becomes less interesting. Its manipulating relationships to make us care about the character, when if you just wrote an interesting character we wouldn't need him to be involved w/ a lead to be interesting. Look at Sin, she was never LI to anyone & people still cared about her story. Its like in S2, when they tried to make Blood & LL romantically involved, it just wasn't necessary to the plot, and only became interesting when they both were playing each other for ulterior purposes - which I dont think is their angle with R&F. Lastly, O&F have enough issues on their own & between them, that an external triangle is just a weak way of stalling them.

Edited February 18, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

The script has a pretty strong indication that she didn't know, though: Oliver's "Do you understand?" which is not "Ok, your short skirts finally got to me," but asking her if she's ok with the plan.  Felicity's never been a strong actress, and beyond my little fanwank that he wasn't sure if he could go through with it (that's not actually in the script, but I like it) I think he wanted to make sure that her reactions were believable. He couldn't trust to her acting.

 

Second, we've seen several times before that Oliver's a strategist.  He's amazingly awful in his personal life, I think we can all agree, and I completely understand why the Queen Consolidated board took one look at him and said, uh, yeah, we're going for the creepy Ray Palmer guy, and not just because that guy has a PhD, and it's canon that Oliver spent his college years partying instead of showing up in class, but we've also seen that he speaks several languages and can plan well in advance - often without letting others in on his plans.  He did this to Diggle a couple of times in the first season.

 

Sure, it makes him a jerk, but Oliver's often a total jerk. It's in character.

The way he asks her "Do you understand?" had a heartbreaking tone to it, that he knew what he was asking and felt horrible for asking her to do it without really being able to ask her to do it. If it had been planned prior to the hallway, I don't believe we would have gotten that emotional rawness in that question. Because he would have known that she was OK with the plan, not essentially asking her permission/agreement which is what the DYU always seemed to be. More like a this is the plan, do you agree to it. Ive said before, I think he admitting to love her in the scene was accidental slip. I think he had a strategy & plan going in but in the moment got caught up in the emotions. They had enough trust in her, that I think he knew she would agree to the plan (she had made herself bait & sacrificed herself multiple times before) and likely kept her out of the planning to elicit a believable response. Because although EBR's acting is awesome, Felicity's is not always great or believable.

 

Personally, as I think about it now. I wonder if they wrote both versions of the story. With the one that aired being the version where she did not know & the kiss version being the one that she did know the plan. Im not sure who then made the call for the final edit, but it did become canon without the kiss, so that must mean something. I do think it makes a better case for wanting Olicity to be a real romantic possibility than just plot device. The kiss scene to me would have been OQ choosing to use his relationship with Felicity as a means to an end, which does not bode well for romantic pairings. I find the kiss only works for me if they are both in on the plan prior to the scene. Its one thing for him to create a strategy to convince Slade that he needs to take Felicity, so that she can inject him with the syringe, thus in someways using Felicity without her initial input, but not manipulating her into compliance with an artificially initiated kiss. A kiss under those pretenses would have used their mutual feelings to manipulate her, which would have been UBER jerk. To me, kissing her without her being in on the plan is just too much wrong, using her & her emotions  to get desired end result. Which is why I don't like the kiss scene, without them telling me they both were in on the plan/rouse prior to the conversation, and am glad they left it out. I think if the writers are gonna leave it vague as to how much knowledge Felicity had prior to the scenes, then the kiss makes Oliver look even worse & a complete jerk. The kiss was not needed to sell the rouse, and putting the kiss in only makes him seem more like a manipulator & user. The beach scene also played out fine without the kiss, because it was a good barometer for F & the audience to gauge O's position. If he had only intended the ILY as part of the plan, he would have just told her on the beach & apologized that he had to do it for the plan. The fact that he didn't take it back or apologize to me indicated that there was more truth to the statement than OQ wanted to admit at the time. Another reason, the kiss only works if they are both in on the plan ahead of time. Her questioning the kiss would have seemed awkward or petty, which would have not been an ideal way to end the season.

 

The way the hallway scene played out on the actual episode was most effective because it didn't show him using her, so much as trusting her. If her response to "Do u understand" had been different, I think he would have found another plan. He may have designed the strategy & plan, but there is no way he would have gone through with it, if she did not understand or had expressed some type of hesitation. Her crestfallen look at the end of the scene also indicated to me that she was not aware prior, because it seemed that she was emotionally taken back from the confession, but was still willing to trust him & whatever this plan he had concocted. I think it was brilliantly written, acted & shot. But that was the beauty of S1&2 Felicity, there was a subtlety to their implicit trust & respect for each other, that they could speak volumes in stares & words unspoken that secret hatched plans could be made almost on the spot  between them without needing some big narrative or plot explanation.

[statsgirl]

 I personally think it sullied both Ray & Felicity. Imagine what the reception could have been to Ray, if fans were not waiting for the other shoe to drop. Its one thing if the actors start working together & the chemistry is palpable that you might alter the course (ahem... olicity), its another thing if the romantic tension/flirtation is written in from the beginning as it is with R&F. When I remove Ray as the obligatory 3rd piece of a triangle, I actually could see how he might have a place on the show, albeit as a recurring not regular star, could even be heavily recurring. But once you place him in that triangle spot, he becomes less interesting. Its manipulating relationships to make us care about the character, when if you just wrote an interesting character we wouldn't need him to be involved w/ a lead to be interesting.

I didn't mind how they introduced Ray at first.  In fact, I was glad someone was finally appreciating Felicity for what she can do professionally instead of making her basically a secretary.  There are great things ahead for Ms. Smoak, if only the writers could start writing for her.

 

But I think this plan of Ray being romantically interested in her needs to end now. I think Ray has suffered as a character by interacting only with Felicity, and given how much I dislike the plot lines of Laurel and Ra's, I'm dreading a Ray/Felicity hook-up.  There's too much on the show I don't want to see, and too little that I do.

[Danny Franks]

The crazy thing is, they even gave Ray a valid reason to not be romantically interested in Felicity. His fiance had just died. That right there would have ended any questions of whether he fancied something extra-curricular with his new employee. Or it could have, if these writers weren't so devoid of ideas that they decided to take cues from Twilight fanfic.

[Ang]

Potentially controversial opinion here:

After seeing the various Felicity kisses this season and catching up on past seasons on Netflix, I'm of the opinion that neither SA nor EBR are really strong at doing sexy kisses/love scenes. Neither one of them tilts their head an inch! It makes me laugh and I wonder how things play out behind the scenes. I've become convinced that they need to go for the implied heat more often than explicit make out scenes for either of them. With Ray...at least he tilts his head a bit? I don't find his kiss with Felicity quite as cringe-worthy on second watch. So I guess I won't mind much if they go there? I always felt his stalking was professional stalking of the variety to catch the attention of a tech-savant like Felicity.

One last thought on Unthinkable - whether or not Felicity knew about the plan or not, and I really do think it's likely she knew there was one based on the conversation they'd just been having and Oliver's lightbulb face, I'd like to think she was caught off guard not by Oliver's words/actions but by his apparent sincerity. Her shaken reaction was because he seemed like he meant it.

[Guest]

I've just been watching episode 114 when Felicity finds out that Oliver is the Arrow (I was feeling nostalgic!) and most of the episode is Felicity and Diggle saving his life and talking in between and it was just so damn good. What are the odds that you can find three completely different people from all walks of life who all have such great chemistry that bounces off so well with each other? It's so rare. 

 

Coincidently, this is the episode where the show came to life, IMO. Everything started to work. It felt right.

 

I've said before - I'm all for evolving and adapting to team members but they really should keep some of what made this show so great in the first place and that's Original Team Arrow. 

 

And now I'm sad because that's never gonna happen. :(

Edited February 18, 2015 by Guest

[Chaser]

Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. They were a Team that was earned. They all brought a different perspective and special skill set. The viewer got to see how each member fit. If you remove one of them, it hurt.

 

This new team just doesn't work. I understand the added layer Roy can give Oliver as a mentee. But what does he bring as Arsenal? What can he do better than Diggle? And Laurel? She is a liability in the field, both in her lack of phyiscal ability and emotional maturity. So remove her from the action. What does she offer in the Foundry? She isn't a doctor. Tech wise, what can she do better then Felicity?  

 

Both Roy and Laurel could offer something outside the Foundry. Roy could be their connection to the streets; their informant. Laurel could be their connection to the Law.

Edited February 18, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

When you think of it, Caitlyn with her medical training would be more use in the lair than Laurel.

 

I understand that they need to move the show beyond just O/D/F so it doesn't get stale (although it never hurt NCIS).  But if you lessen the good, you need something as good to make up for what you've lost.

 

Oliver, Diggle and Felicity functioned perfectly.  Even now, with the conflict over Malcolm Merlyn, I feel like it could have been resolved if it were only the three of them dealing with it.

[Guest]

Exactly. And their dynamic just fired on all cylinders and basically carried the momentum of the show but now they're just relegated to nothing? Naw, son. 

[statsgirl]

I dunno, I thought the hospital corridor kiss did the job, which was to sell me on the love.

 

I don't need to see sexy times, I'm good with it playing out in my mind or in fanfic.  (Honestly, the stuff with Cooper was cringe-worthy)  I didn't like the kiss with Ray because Felicity was in love with Oliver at the time and it made her look needy to be kissing Ray because she couldn't get Oliver  (To me, anyway)

[Guest]

Olicity kisses have been pretty chaste but I don't mind. The one in 301 was really emotional and intense and showed me they were in love. It was a longing kiss goodbye in a way. A passionate kiss wasn't right at that moment.

 

I suppose Oliver's dream kiss could have been more heated because duh, it's his dream and he should be imagining throwing her up against the wall or something but I guess when they finally (hopefully) do kiss again, it wouldn't seem as impactful if we'd already seen a really passionate make-out. I feel like they're saving it for a big moment. Fingers crossed.