Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Sakura12]

I think Felicity had that with Barry. I haven't seen too many of her scenes with Ray since I only watched clips of the Felicity episode, but I didn't see that at all. 

 

And from what I hear, Ray is coming across as creepy instead of cute. 

[dtissagirl]

Same. I was expecting that but I've not seen that vibe at all. In fact, when the two of them are together both talking too quickly it's just too much. It's not cute or quirky. It's annoying. And I'm still waiting on that chemistry too. 

 

+1. And it's not like there hasn't been a couple in recent superhero properties that actually does the boss-secretary '40s screwball comedy thing in RDJ and Goop in Iron Man/Avengers. They had the template to rip-off right. there. but it's just not what's going on. Especially since Felicity has been upset/crying in about 70% of her scenes with Crazy Eyes. It's all so super dumb.

[Chaser]

The Ray/Felicity comedy hour is completely oversold. It isn't screwball or zany. Ray just talks fast with the tech and can ramble a bit. That is the only similarity with Felicity. But well its cute with her, it screams 'Trying to Hard' at moments with him. And yes, that pinging the phone thing was okay one time but nows its totally wrong.

[Guest]

+1. And it's not like there hasn't been a couple in recent superhero properties that actually does the boss-secretary '40s screwball comedy thing in RDJ and Goop in Iron Man/Avengers. They had the template to rip-off right. there. but it's just not what's going on. Especially since Felicity has been upset/crying in about 70% of her scenes with Crazy Eyes. It's all so super dumb.

 

Exactly. And IMO Felicity didn't need someone similar to 'spark off' or 'vibrate at her own frequency.' It wasn't needed at all. She was doing just fine with everyone around her already.

 

The Ray/Felicity comedy hour is completely oversold. It isn't screwball or zany. Ray just talks fast with the tech and can ramble a bit. That is the only similarity with Felicity. But well its cute with her, it screams 'Trying to Hard' at moments with him. And yes, that pinging the phone thing was okay one time but nows its totally wrong.

 

Agreed. Aside from Ray's questionable behavior which I find super creepy and problematic, I just find their scenes so…blah. It is trying too hard because he's so very obviously written as a road block to Olicity that I can't see him as a three dimensional character. He just…is. He's a giant plot point and nothing more and I don't want to watch that tbh. It's all so forced.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Guest

[Chaser]

The ironic thing about Felicity and Ray is that their type of comedy works best off a straight man. Which is way Felicity packs a better punch around Oliver, Diggle, Quentin, etc.. 

 

I would actually like to see Ray interact with Laurel. You don't get straighter then her.

[Chiny11]

Honestly, I think they were trying to recreate the magic of Barry VA Felicity interactions with Raylicity. It failed woefully unfortunately.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Chiny11

[apinknightmare]

+1. And it's not like there hasn't been a couple in recent superhero properties that actually does the boss-secretary '40s screwball comedy thing in RDJ and Goop in Iron Man/Avengers. They had the template to rip-off right. there. but it's just not what's going on. Especially since Felicity has been upset/crying in about 70% of her scenes with Crazy Eyes. It's all so super dumb.

 

+2. And it's strange because I usually like everyone when they're in scenes with Felicity, and Ray's one person I think I'd like more if he wasn't around her. Or if he wasn't a romantic interest for her - and this has nothing to do with shipping tendencies, because I was for Ray before I was against him, haha. And I could even be somewhat okay with SOME of the personal boundaries issues (not the pinging her phone, but maybe banging on her door early in the morning type thing) if he was just some genius who needed her brain power to do good in the city and wasn't kissing her and running off or sharing sob stories about this dead fiancee after tracking her to a nightclub. Just a good old-fashioned fun working relationship with no stalking or crazy eyes. 

[Sakura12]

Only having scenes with one or two characters is what made Laurel so disconnected from the show in the first place. (her personality issues came later) They obviously haven't learned their lesson with that. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

The ironic thing about Felicity and Ray is that their type of comedy works best off a straight man. Which is way Felicity packs a better punch around Oliver, Diggle, Quentin, etc..

 

This, so much. They actually nailed the screwball comedy tone in the girl Wednesday scene. Oliver was the straight man all through that episode, and that's how this kind of banter goes. Even his ONE coffee cup reward was spot on. Then they nailed it *again* in the Flash part of the crossover, first in the "you're gonna hock me" scene, and then the "what Oliver means is..." at the end. That's how screwball works. The speed at which characters speak is not that relevant.

[Ariah]

Oh you know, "screwball",  "epic", "starcrossed" - words, words, words. Their meaning can be so elusive.

[strikera0]

Actually that's exactly why I said she was written as the victim. As I said it wasn't about the character or the story it was outside the show. It was designed to make the audience feel sorry for Laurel. Oh poor Laurel O/S betrayed her and now she's apologizing?! It was, IMO a blatant attempt at audience manipulation. They couldn't get the character to work no matter what role they put her in, so they threw O/S under the bus to prop her up.

 

Yeah, this and I think they were also trying to paint Laurel as the bigger person of the two. It continued during the Helena arc in BOP, when Laurel was the one who decided to stay behind to save the other hostages (whereas Sara only wanted to save Laurel) and then had to plead with Sara not to kill Helena. In retrospect, Sara's main purpose on the show really was to function as a prop for Laurel, which is a shame because the character had the potential to be so much more than that.

Edited January 12, 2015 by strikera0

[dcinmb]

This, so much. They actually nailed the screwball comedy tone in the girl Wednesday scene. Oliver was the straight man all through that episode, and that's how this kind of banter goes. Even his ONE coffee cup reward was spot on. Then they nailed it *again* in the Flash part of the crossover, first in the "you're gonna hock me" scene, and then the "what Oliver means is..." at the end. That's how screwball works. The speed at which characters speak is not that relevant.

One of my favorite scenes was their energy drink exchange in ep. 12, particularly Oliver's two half-laughs and his mortification at his chronic inability to concoct a plausible cover story. And Diggle capped the scene off perfectly, as he often does (e.g., his black driver comment, the way his glance swung to Felicity before he shook her mom's hand). As frustrating as the writing can be sometimes, they often get Team Arrow right.

Edited January 13, 2015 by dcinmb

[NumberCruncher]

One of my favorite scenes was their energy drink exchange in ep. 12, particularly Oliver's two half-laughs and his mortification at his chronic inability to concoct a plausible cover story. And Diggle capped the scene off perfectly, as he often does (e.g., his black driver comment, the way his glance swung to Felicity before he shook her mom's hand). As frustrating as the writing can be sometimes, they often get Team Arrow right.

Too bad those moments are so elusive this season. That's a huge part of what's sorely been missing for me...not Team Arrow itself per se (because there have been occasional moments), but the old team dynamics. They've always played so well off each other and it was the core of the show. Oliver was the straight man and leader. Diggle was the tough, sarcastic, but fiercely loyal soldier. Felicity brought the smarts, the humor, and the heart. I looked forward to watching them week-to-week just to see what happened next. Now we get sparse moments here and there of them working together and when they do, it's just not the same anymore.

That's why the crossover episodes have been, by far, my favorite this season. They were the closest we have gotten to the wacky adventures of old Team Arrow. The more the show shifts its focus away from these 3 and onto characters I don't care about (and I don't count Thea and Malcolm because frankly--I think they've also been sacrificed at the altar of the shiny new comic heroes too), the more disengaged I find myself towards the show.

I keep hearing all the producers and actors make the comment that the audience needs to bond to all of these new characters and relationships to hold their interest, but is that really true? I look at some of my absolute favorite TV shows (The X-Files, Chuck, BSG, Burn Notice, Gilmore Girls, Nikita, etc.) and while they had several recurring characters, the vast majority of them were centered around a small, key team or duo and I loved that. It was when they started messing with the original formula that my indifference would rise.

That's not to say I don't love ensemble shows because I do, but there's a difference in how those are written and what they've spent multiple seasons establishing on Arrow. I feel like they're trying to now completely change the whole concept of the show. The show was about Oliver Queen and partners trying to save his city, but now it's the Justice League with a little Oliver Queen on the side. Sadly, I spent 2 seasons falling in love with Oliver and his partners only to see all the loyalty and intimacy get shoved aside for people and subplots for which I have developed no such bonds.

[bethy]

I think part of the problem is that they're trying to shift focus after two years of establishing a solid base of three characters. Ensembles are great when they start as ensembles - hello Brooklyn 99. But I think shows get themselves into trouble when they start with two or three main characters - and the point of the show (to a degree) is the relationship between those characters - and then try to branch out too abruptly. Supernatural ran into that problem (and continues to run into that problem); I think Lost ran into that problem to a different extent when in season two they added in the tail section crew. Sleepy Hollow's in the same boat this season.

 

I think it can be done, but they need to take more time to integrate the new characters. Honestly, I think Arrow's done a good job of that with Felicity. She wasn't a part of the original team of Oliver and Diggle and she wasn't supposed to be, but they eased her in very well. Of course, right now I'm having a hard time thinking of other shows that have done it well.  :)

Edited January 13, 2015 by bethy

[AyChihuahua]

Buffy managed to do it (Spike and Anya, arguably Dawn, Faith), although we always loved the original Scooby gang the best.  But, as usual, Buffy is the exception that proves the rule.

[dtissagirl]

A RL friend of mine is watching S1, so I'm re-watching selected episodes with her. I think Arrow S1 lends itself to a study of how a show was conceived on paper, and how much of that didn't work on screen, and how major concepts had to be re-worked as it went, by changing how Oliver's relationships were framed. I'm a sucker for storytelling process, so for me, in a weird way, the fact that they had to do this is as interesting as the storyline itself.

 

There are two overreaching things the pilot established with regards to Oliver that felt like series-long themes, but that ultimately didn't work, and had to be retconned:

 

1. His transformation from ruthless killer to superhero -- regaining his humanity in present time while losing it in the flashbacks -- was heavily tied to the love of A Woman. That woman was obviously Laurel in the pilot, hence the island picture of doom, but that didn't work, and we've talked about it at lenght already, and they're STILL rewriting that clusterfuck two and a half seasons later, with Felicity in the role of The Woman. In this instance, they've chosen to keep the theme, but changed the character Oliver's humanity regain is tied to.

 

2. The other thing is that they established Oliver's mission as a one-man job. The modern day Hamlet with a bow and arrow who trusts nobody and plays the fool in public by day while ~avenging his father alone at night [it is no coincidence Felicity compares Oliver to Hamlet, no sirs]. Turns out audiences gave no fucks about that either. I'm certain they meant for Diggle to be in on the secret from the start, but they sure didn't envision a Team at all, not in the pilot. I think they realized Arrow suffered from the lack of a team by episode 103, actually, when they made Diggle a de-facto Team Arrow member, and Felicity an unnofficial one.

 

It also took time, because they had set out to tell the story of a loner, and that had to be dealt with. It did help that there were lots of good story beats in building up Team Arrow slowly, but The Flash going ensemble from day one [hell, before day one, since Caitlin and Cisco showed up on Arrow before The Flash pilot was shot] tells me they did NOT want to go through those growing pains again.

 

But the retcon must go on, so I think Oliver's apology speech to Felicity in 210 was their way to reassign the entire show as an ensemble piece*. The fact that they had Oliver say in-text that he meant to work alone, but then Diggle and Felicity happened for the better, and his admitting that he relied on them is as huge a sign as we'll ever get. That also opened the show for the possibility of more team members, hence Sara and Roy** in S2. They might be over-correcting the original lack of team with TOO MANY COOKS, with the possibility of going full Justice League in the future, but that's another discussion for another time if/when it happens.

 

 

* By ensemble here I mean a Scooby Gang, not an overall big cast wherein most characters are being lied to. Not having a Scooby Gang was hindering their ability to tell Oliver's story, because he literally had nobody to speak truth to until Dig and Felicity. They did not set out to make Oliver into an unreliable narrator -- they set out this guy to be lying to everyone he knew, but telling the truth to the audience in the voiceovers from the first episodes. But 1. those voiceovers were terrible, and 2. revenge-y Hamlet-y S1 Oliver was not connecting with most of the audiences UNTIL Dig and Felicity.

 

**As an aside, I'm fairly certain Roy's presence on the show [and Team Arrow] is a network demand, so he had to be integrated in some way, but they certainly didn't spend that much time in developing his connections to the others as they did with Oliver-Dig-Felicity.

Edited January 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

Thank you for pointing out the Hamlet parallel, when I first watched I thought I was imagining it and quickly talked myself out of it, because "no way they'd do such a reference!". Now I know I'm not crazy! 

Also, lol at the island picture of doom. That's something always good to point and laugh at :)

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Ya know what could have worked with carrying the photo of Laurel around?

*I think we can all agree the sister swapping was a bad precedent to set. They never should have gone that direction. We need to erase that narrative.

 

I can see Oliver using the photo of Laurel as a talisman of sorts. She represented the sins he needed to atone for and his goal in S1 was to atone for his father's sins. He should have come back and realized they were two different people than the ones who knew each other five years before. It would have been good if they had this epiphany before they screwed in plain sight to break Tommy's heart. Coming back from the island with his father's notebook and Laurel's photo would have made sense to me. I wouldn't have minded if Laurel spent most of S1 mad at Oliver for living while Sara died. It would have made an interesting triangle with Tommy being thrilled and Laurel wanting to kill him. Removes the romantic love triangle but brings an interesting twist. Reuniting Laurel and Oliver might have stood a chance if Tommy had died without them betraying him.

It also would have been interesting because Felicity challenged Oliver to look beyond the book. Imagine if he was looking beyond Laurel and the book. What a great parallel!

Switching beats for a moment.

The most adult moment on Arrow was when Sara was staying at the mansion. She inquired about Oliver and Laurel and he replied "we tried it didn't work." It wasn't drama. It didn't look like they were going the Oliver and Sara route. Oliver and Laurel were vocally acknowledged as defective. Then they had S/O hook up to speed bump Olicity and all maturity went out the window.

[statsgirl]

A bit back...

I truly don't think there's a chance it would happen unless EBR left the show of her own volition. The show would never get rid of her, but if she wanted to leave for some reason, they'd have to fill in that empty love story space, I guess. Otherwise, no. They've stopped giving any romantic beats to Laurel and Oliver, and they know no one feels chemistry there or believes in that relationship (except KC apparently). I worry they will screw Olicity up in about a million other ways, but I haven't been concerned about Lauriver since SDCC.

IF EBR were to leave the show, I really think they might bring on a new person for Oliver's love interest or leave him single.  Oliver's growth has been through This Woman (as SA said in a TCA interview, Oliver has changed because of Felicity and he's not the same person he was with Laurel) and by the time she were to leave, maybe they wouldn't need a woman to grow him any more.  At any rate, I think they will have spent so much time burying the idea of Oliver/Laurel OTP that it will be too late to resurrect it enough for the general audience to buy it even if she is the Black Canary.

 

The ironic thing about Felicity and Ray is that their type of comedy works best off a straight man. Which is way Felicity packs a better punch around Oliver, Diggle, Quentin, etc.. 

The screwball comedy actually worked better with Felicity and Donna where Felicity got to act as straight man.

I wonder if they were afraid to do that with Ray in fear of killing Felicity doing that with other characters, or if they just didn't realize you need a straight man for it.

[BkWurm1]

Especially since Felicity has been upset/crying in about 70% of her scenes with Crazy Eyes. It's all so super dumb.

 

This! 

 

Except for the first episode, there hasn't been any comedy between her and Ray (save "I have a type" and she did that without him).  The moment the date got blown up, the death knell started and I know I stopped finding humor in Ray.  He became an annoyance, a pesky distraction to the more important thing going on and that was just relationship stuff.  Then they killed Sara and boy oh boy, talk about ill timed humor.  This went on until Felicity came back from The Flash.  

 

I did find him humorous in SOOFS but even then Felicity is a wreck, dealing with the dead boyfriend/not dead but now evil. 

 

If Felicity thinks it isn't the time to crack a joke then NOBODY else should be doing it.  I am a defender of Ray's more questionable behavior, but his character has just about been ruined just by really ill conceived timing.  He is never on the right page for the emotional beats going on in the show (well, almost never) and it just makes everything about him grate so much worse than I think it otherwise would. 

 

It's fixable still, IMO and one of the things that will work in his favor is if Felicity in 3B is done with the tears...at least in public.  Let her get snarky and bold and let that help keep her moving after Oliver's death. 

[Genki]

I can see Oliver using the photo of Laurel as a talisman of sorts. She represented the sins he needed to atone for and his goal in S1 was to atone for his father's sins. He should have come back and realized they were two different people than the ones who knew each other five years before. It would have been good if they had this epiphany before they screwed in plain sight to break Tommy's heart. Coming back from the island with his father's notebook and Laurel's photo would have made sense to me. I wouldn't have minded if Laurel spent most of S1 mad at Oliver for living while Sara died. It would have made an interesting triangle with Tommy being thrilled and Laurel wanting to kill him. Removes the romantic love triangle but brings an interesting twist. Reuniting Laurel and Oliver might have stood a chance if Tommy had died without them betraying him.

 

I think one of the main reasons they had the Oliver/Laurel hook-up was to ship-burn, and I sort of agree that the EPs had to conclude some of the themes form S1 that was not working, especially Oliver's return to humanity being tied to Laurel. His true love. 

 

Also having them hook-up (in front of poor broken-hearted Tommy) proved they were bad together. The hook-up and Tommy's death sent Oliver on the no kill path and the fact that he went to save Laurel in spite of what she did showed to her that he truly loved her and not Oliver resolving a mostly boring love triangle.

 

This was why I always thought Felicity was the intended LI in S2.

[Morrigan2575]

I think one of the main reasons they had the Oliver/Laurel hook-up was to ship-burn, and I sort of agree that the EPs had to conclude some of the themes form S1 that was not working, especially Oliver's return to humanity being tied to Laurel. His true love.

Also having them hook-up (in front of poor broken-hearted Tommy) proved they were bad together. The hook-up and Tommy's death sent Oliver on the no kill path and the fact that he went to save Laurel in spite of what she did showed to her that he truly loved her and not Oliver resolving a mostly boring love triangle.

This was why I always thought Felicity was the intended LI in S2.

 

She was, there's a quote from MG given in May, right around the time of the S1 finale (pre/post I don't remember), where MG states outright that they had to resolve the love triangle so they could move onto Felicity.  

 

I'm not saying there's 100% guarantee but they've wasted an awful amount of screen-time ending O/L, re-writing the S1 Love Story of O/L and developing Olicity to switch back.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

I think their biggest mistake was setting up Oliver and Laurel with a pre-existing history (and a terrible one at that). It would have been so much better if they met down the line. But, really, I don't know what they were thinking with the sister swapping. I mean, have them have a good relationship before the boat, and then have them struggle when he returns because he is clearly a different man and can't tell her about it. Or anything, really, would have been better than that, gah!

[Starfish35]

She was, there's a quote from MG given in May, right around the time of the S1 finale (pre/post I don't remember), where MG states outright that they had to resolve the love triangle so they could move onto Felicity.

I remember something about that, but I don't remember it being that early. But even so, during the summer between seasons one and two, MG was still talking about Oliver and Laurel like they were the show's OTP. Remember this infamous quote? That's why I had a hard time believing they had given up in Lauriver until this season (or more accurately, until SA made his statement about not thinking we'll ever see Oliver and Sara or Oliver and Laurel together again).

On balancing the will they/won't they aspect of Oliver and Laurel's relationship on "Arrow": I think any time you do a TV show, and you've got two people together who are star-crossed lovers and they're destined to be together, but you don't want them together because you run into the "Moonlighting" problem of your two main characters, once they actually end up together, in a committed relationship, then it seems to lose all of its sexual spark.The little magic trick that we have to do with Oliver and Laurel is, keep bringing them together and pulling them apart, bringing them together and pulling them apart.

Comicbookresources.com - July 2, 2013 Edited January 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[Ariah]

I think their biggest mistake was setting up Oliver and Laurel with a pre-existing history (and a terrible one at that). It would have been so much better if they met down the line. But, really, I don't know what they were thinking with the sister swapping. I mean, have them have a good relationship before the boat, and then have them struggle when he returns because he is clearly a different man and can't tell her about it. Or anything, really, would have been better than that, gah!

 

Exactly!

If they needed him to be a douche before the island, have him cheat with anyone, but not the sister. It was a terrible set-up from the start.

 

That and the lack of energy between the two.

 

The thing - at least with me - is that I prefer to watch my love stories from the beginning. So having two characters with a previous history didn't satisfy my needs. I want to see them meet for the first time, I want to see them slowly fall in love. Yes, there may be obstacles in the middle, but it's the process that is important.

 

With Oliver and Laurel I got robbed of that process: what I got, was an outcome. Two people who might have been in love in high-school, but one has commitement issues and the other doesn't want to see those issues (and not in the "I can fix him" manner, but rather "la-la-la, I can't hear you, what issues" manner). There was a lot of room for improvement, but neither wanted to change.

 

How did they meet? Did Oliver see Laurel, thought she's hot and she would not let herself be a one-night stand? Or did Laurel decide it's her time to jump Queen and set things up so that he'll be her boyfriend (including telling on Sara). How did they fall in love? Was the pre-island Oliver even capable of long-lasting relationships? Was Laurel only obsessed with holding him down for marriage?

 

All these questions were not too important to the EP's, because instead of telling Oliver and Laurel's love story and endearing them to the audience, they've decided to skip all that and go for the triangle drama.

[blixie]

 

I think their biggest mistake was setting up Oliver and Laurel with a pre-existing history

 

Absolutely, though I think the even bigger mistake after deciding to give them the pre-existing history was to not SHOW any of it via their built IN flashback model. They wanted to draw such a HUGE distinction between pre-Island Olly and post Island Olly even that season, and yet all of it was just told rather than shown. We should have SEEN them fall in love in Flashback, we should have seen why these two would still feel a pull despite all the terrible crap under the bridge. Laurel should have been given some consideration as her own person and character and not just as the antagonistic bitchy ex, who is incompetent at everything until one day she's awesome at being BC.

[dtissagirl]

The thing - at least with me - is that I prefer to watch my love stories from the beginning. So having two characters with a previous history didn't satisfy my needs. I want to see them meet for the first time, I want to see them slowly fall in love. Yes, there may be obstacles in the middle, but it's the process that is important.

 

THIS. A thousand times this. I need to be shown, not told, why people are in love to buy it. And the best way to do that is to show me the start of the romantic feelings. Frankly, if you start a story with one person already in love, I'm gonna doubt those feelings on principle alone. I need to see WHY, and HOW, and WHEN that person fell in love, not be told about it. I'm doubting Barry's love for Iris right now on The Flash, even, because being told about it by every other character = never enough for me.

 

It's like these EPs are allergic to meet-cutes, and if/when they happen, it's completely accidental.

 

And if you look at it from a romance writer/reader POV, this is something everyone ever who's watched a rom-com movie, or read one single chick lit book, knows: if the protagonist starts the story in love with someone, they'll end up with someone else they'll fall in love with DURING THE STORY.

Edited January 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

It's like that for me, too. If not really the very first meeting, at least the falling in love part it's what pulls me into a story. But aside from the crickets heard during O/L scenes, they butchered with inconsistencies of every kind.

To this day, I'm still not sure for how long they dated, or what kind of relationship they had:

Was it an on-and-off thing? Or they never had a break?

In one instance Oliver says something like "In every relationship I had" to Tommy (when Tommy is lamenting Laurel's infatuation with the Hood). To what relationships is he referring ? Did he also have multiple girlfriends while being with Laurel, aside from the occasional one-night-stands?

 

I don't know what could have been the point of finding an apartment to live together if they were living in two different cities due to college. (Maybe I'm wrong on this, but wasn't Oliver in some  Ivy League college while Laurel was in Starling?)

 

And the biggest WTF of it all:  Oliver has an estabilished playboy reputation since  the pilot, plus in  flashback Sara tells Laurel about all the girls he cheated on her with - to which Laurel doesn't react at all, beside snapping at her sister, implying she must have known about it. Damn, Laurel,did you need him to "die" cheating with your sister to maybe start suspecting it wasn't the best relationship?!?

They were so blinded by the "she always saw the best in him" that they painted her first, as a clueless and spineless girl, and then, when it all fell through and didn't need that anymore, as a social climber. Bad, bad, story.

Edited January 14, 2015 by looptab

[Chiny11]

THIS. A thousand times this. I need to be shown, not told, why people are in love to buy it. And the best way to do that is to show me the start of the romantic feelings. Frankly, if you start a story with one person already in love, I'm gonna doubt those feelings on principle alone. I need to see WHY, and HOW, and WHEN that person fell in love, not be told about it. I'm doubting Barry's love for Iris right now on The Flash, even, because being told about it by every other character = never enough for me.

It's like these EPs are allergic to meet-cutes, and if/when they happen, it's complely accidental.

And if you look at it from a romance writer/reader POV, this is something everyone ever who's watched a rom-com movie, or read one single chick lit book, knows: if the protagonist starts the story in love with someone, they'll end up with someone else they'll fall in love with DURING THE STORY.

THIS!!! absofreakinglutely!!

It's funny that the only "meet cute" that we got on arrow was not planned to be a meeting of love interests. I am referring to Olicity's first scene. And that scene (coupled with the electric chemistry between EBR and SA) led to the birth of a behemoth fanbase.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Chiny11

[dtissagirl]

I find it all super hilarious, because it feels like they wanted ~edgy ~adult romance on Arrow, and thus had the grand idea to avoid all of the tropey tropes that MAKE ROMANCE WORK [instead doing it with in media res, cheating with siblings, super vague romantic baggage/history], but they miscalculated so greatly they're still dealing with consequences. And on Flash they're over-correcting by going the very opposite route of ~edgy, telling us that the person you fall in love with in kindergarten is your One True Love. WHAT.

 

Happy medium, we cannot has it with these writers.

Edited January 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

They wanted it both ways. They wanted Oliver to be a playboy who peed on cop cars and ducked any form of responsibility. But they also wanted him in a serious relationship with a good girl who always brings out the best in him. That doesn't mix.  The audience just doesn't understand the characters. Why were we being told Oliver loved Laurel when all his actions showed the opposite? What good did smart, driven Laurel see in him? We weren't shown any good or potential for it with Laurel. I would actually say they only glimpse we saw was with the Baby Mama.

[dtissagirl]

I really just get the strongest vibe of Dudebros Take on Romance from the planned pairings. And because it's all thought out from the male protagonist POV, the ladies end up getting the shaft by default. Laurel is the Good Woman who will ~fix Oliver of his douchebaggery by forgiving him. Iris is the idealized perfect girl of Barry's childhood dreams instead of being an actual real person with her own thoughts, and motives, and flaws. The way they're framing it is if it turns out Iris doesn't ever fall in love with Barry solely because he's in love with her already, she's a failure as a female characer.

 

Thinking about it now, the way they killed Oliver/Laurel was a lite 8pm version of turning her from Madonna to Whore when she slept with Oliver while Tommy watched. It's even more horrifying when I remember Oliver knows Tommy saw it, but Laurel has no. freaking. idea. about it. Yikes.

Edited January 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Danny Franks]

They wanted it both ways. They wanted Oliver to be a playboy who peed on cop cars and ducked any form of responsibility. But they also wanted him in a serious relationship with a good girl who always brings out the best in him. That doesn't mix.  The audience just doesn't understand the characters. Why were we being told Oliver loved Laurel when all his actions showed the opposite? What good did smart, driven Laurel see in him? We weren't shown any good or potential for it with Laurel. I would actually say they only glimpse we saw was with the Baby Mama.

 

Exactly. Mix those two things and you get a guy who doesn't respect his girlfriend, cheats on her and seems to feel no remorse, and a girl who is either dumb enough to not realise, or who just doesn't mind as long as she's his 'official' girlfriend. None of those qualities are desirable in the heroic leads of a TV show.

 

It was a pairing that was fatally flawed, from the start. Because even without Oliver boning her sister, Laurel looked like a sap for ever putting up with his shit in the first place. They were together for years, but he had all these ex-girlfriends and flings. There's only one conclusion you can draw, and it seems like the writers never figured that out.

 

Thinking about it now, the way they killed Oliver/Laurel was a lite 8pm version of turning her from Madonna to Whore when she slept with Oliver while Tommy watched. It's even more horrifying when I remember Oliver knows Tommy saw it, but Laurel has no. freaking. idea. about it. Yikes.

 

 

But why does Laurel matter in this? That was a manly thing between men who were having a metaphorical cockfight over the 'prize'. Tommy lost (or rather sabotaged himself by believing his own dick was too small) and so had to witness Oliver claiming his victory.

 

The madonna/whore thing is interesting, because it seems like both Oliver and Tommy put her on a pedestal (for no reason I could ever discern) and saw her as something special. In the end, she was just the girl who wanted to bang the sexy guy in the hood. Or her sexy ex-boyfriend who needed to only say he still wanted her, to win her over.

[looptab]

I really just get the strongest vibe of Dudebros Take on Romance from the planned pairings. And because it's all thought out from the male protagonist POV, the ladies end up getting the shaft by default. Laurel is the Good Woman who will ~fix Oliver of his douchebaggery by forgiving him. [...]

 

Thinking about it now, the way they killed Oliver/Laurel was a lite 8pm version of turning her from Madonna to Whore when she slept with Oliver while Tommy watched. It's even more horrifying when I remember Oliver knows Tommy saw it, but Laurel has no. freaking. idea. about it. Yikes.

This. It could have worked if they painted pre-Gambit Laurel as a brainless brat too, who then grows and changes because of what happened to her family. Then maybe that relationship could have made some sort of sense. But no, she had to be the sainted, idealistic, good girl that made him a better person. They even had Moira as a spokesperson for that: "I liked who my son was when he was with you". Moira, you were better than that!!

 

It was a pairing that was fatally flawed, from the start. Because even without Oliver boning her sister, Laurel looked like a sap for ever putting up with his shit in the first place. They were together for years, but he had all these ex-girlfriends and flings. There's only one conclusion you can draw, and it seems like the writers never figured that out.

 

Exactly. Bad on all fronts.

[Sakura12]

The biggest red flag for Laurel should've been the 10 other women. Not just one or two. Oliver cheated on her with 10 different women with one being her sister or she was number 11. Then there was he got a girl pregnant and still went on to sleep with Sara and bring her on month long cruise. That is someone that really doesn't want to be around his supposed love of his life. 

[BkWurm1]

I think their biggest mistake was setting up Oliver and Laurel with a pre-existing history (and a terrible one at that). It would have been so much better if they met down the line. But, really, I don't know what they were thinking with the sister swapping. I mean, have them have a good relationship before the boat, and then have them struggle when he returns because he is clearly a different man and can't tell her about it. Or anything, really, would have been better than that, gah!

I remember thinking early on during the Pilot that they might have been smart giving Oliver such a whore-ific back story since GA is known for his cheating ways and this way, they could immediately move past that unseemly characteristic, but even before the episode ended, I questioned if they really could come back from it.  The scenes between Oliver and Laurel were just so impossible to ever recover from it seemed IMO.  I was expecting a more tempered reaction to his return.  Maybe if the same words could have worked but said in an almost casual "I don't care manner", I don't know.  I do know that just as I was settling down for some righteous indignation and expecting her to hate the man and fall for the mask, Laurel suddenly wanted to be there for him and I was immediately suspicious of her intentions. 

[looptab]

 

I do know that just as I was settling down for some righteous indignation and expecting her to hate the man and fall for the mask, Laurel suddenly wanted to be there for him 

Yes, I was expecting that, too! And for a while it seemed like they wanted to go there, but it was start-and-stop, bits and pieces and a mess ultimately, (like the whole thing, really). :)

[BkWurm1]

Yes, I was expecting that, too! And for a while it seemed like they wanted to go there, but it was start-and-stop, bits and pieces and a mess ultimately, (like the whole thing, really). :)

They weren't satisfied with just letting her like the new version of the man she used to know, they had to shove down our throats Ollie and Laurel becoming closer which just didn't work, IMO.  Like you said it was a mess. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Danny Franks]

  I do know that just as I was settling down for some righteous indignation and expecting her to hate the man and fall for the mask, Laurel suddenly wanted to be there for him and I was immediately suspicious of her intentions. 

 

And then he told her to piss off again, and she hated him again. And then he came to her apartment with ice cream and she liked him again. She flipped her opinion of Oliver about five times in the space of the first two episodes. From that point on, I think the character was fighting an uphill battle that it would have taken much better writing and much better acting to win.

 

Just imagine if Oliver had met Laurel Lance in the pilot, or perhaps the second episode, in a scene where he has to go to her for help and she charms a smile out of him without even intending to (granted, you have to imagine Laurel being played by someone not Katie Cassidy), and they have a cute moment. Then they have more cute moments over the next few episodes as they start to form a nascent friendship, which is coloured by the fact that the vigilante is covertly helping Laurel with some of her cases, and begins to cross paths with her. It would probably make the show entirely different, and who knows whether it would have worked, but I think at least the central relationship would have had a fighting chance, instead of being doomed from the start.

[Orion]

Just imagine if Oliver had met Laurel Lance in the pilot, or perhaps the second episode, in a scene where he has to go to her for help and she charms a smile out of him without even intending to (granted, you have to imagine Laurel being played by someone not Katie Cassidy), and they have a cute moment. Then they have more cute moments over the next few episodes as they start to form a nascent friendship, which is coloured by the fact that the vigilante is covertly helping Laurel with some of her cases, and begins to cross paths with her. It would probably make the show entirely different, and who knows whether it would have worked, but I think at least the central relationship would have had a fighting chance, instead of being doomed from the start.

 

And you just described Oliver and Felicity's introduction. Really if that was all not intendant they stumbled into one of the better "cute meets" on TV.

 

Here's the quote Morrigan was referring to upthread.

 

 

Still, the EP added, "the final four episodes really are about this love triangle of Oliver, Laurel and Tommy. That’s the love triangle that we began the series with so we felt it appropriate to finish the season with a focus on it. That love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20. That kicks us off for the remaining three episodes of the season after that. The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity. But I love the fact that people are shipping them. It really is exciting. There’s nothing but love for Felicity among all the people involved in the show. So, stay tuned. But in the meantime, I gained a lot of satisfaction by teasing people."

 

April 24, 2013. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/arrow-olicity-felicity-oliver-emily-bett-rickards_n_3144718.html

 

The only explanation I can come up with for continued OTP comments about Laurel/Oliver after that is that they intended to do some form of a romance between Oliver and Felicity while still holding out hope they could circle around to Laurel/Oliver again at a later date. My guess is that at some point during Season 2 they gave up on Lauriver because you stopped hearing about anything other than Olicity and that's when you got the "kill it with fire scenes" where Sara tells Oliver about Laurel getting her grounded to keep her away from him, Sara/Oliver hook back up and the dinner from hell which lead to "I'm done chasing after you" scene.  

[Genki]

I'm kind of glad they wrote it they way they did, as far as I'm concerned comic cannon has been met.

 

- Oliver and Dinah Lance date and are on again off again: Check

- Oliver is a womaniser and cheats on Dinah: Check

- Arrow and Canary Date: Check

 

Now Oliver is free to end up with whoever he likes, so if they keep progressing with Olicity I'll be happy. All the bad background stories and the Olicity meet cute has workout to something better than what they could have got had they tried. I think the EPs will never out right alienate a fan faction, but I think they are trying very hard to move beyond Lauriver. And have done so much to blow up the ship already.

[Starfish35]

Here's the quote Morrigan was referring to upthread.

Thanks for finding that, Orion. I sort of vaguely remembered something like that, but I didn't remember it being so early.

The only explanation I can come up with for continued OTP comments about Laurel/Oliver after that is that they intended to do some form of a romance between Oliver and Felicity while still holding out hope they could circle around to Laurel/Oliver again at a later date. My guess is that at some point during Season 2 they gave up on Lauriver because you stopped hearing about anything other than Olicity and that's when you got the "kill it with fire scenes" where Sara tells Oliver about Laurel getting her grounded to keep her away from him, Sara/Oliver hook back up and the dinner from hell which lead to "I'm done chasing after you" scene.

I....mostly agree? But the whole "I know you in my bones" scene and AK's comments comparing them to Lois & Clark (IIRC in reference to that scene) makes me think that even up until then they had some hope of reviving it. That's why the beach scene was ambiguous (IMO). But both AK's comments and that scene were so badly received that I think they just finally scrapped it after season two. And now in season three we have full-on Olicity.

[apinknightmare]

I....mostly agree? But the whole "I know you in my bones" scene and AK's comments comparing them to Lois & Clark (IIRC in reference to that scene) makes me think that even up until then they had some hope of reviving it. That's why the beach scene was ambiguous (IMO). But both AK's comments and that scene were so badly received that I think they just finally scrapped it after season two. And now in season three we have full-on Olicity.

 

See, I think the possibility of romance between the two has been scrapped for a while now, and that the "I know you in my bones" speech was meant to be the beginning of a new phase of their relationship where they are not romantic partners, but friends who have shared a lot and are special to each other. Thing is, they fail at even that, because she's saying those words literally minutes after she's been let in to his actual life, for real, for the first time, and she still knows jack about him. I think they're desperately trying to form some kind of bond between these two. Not romantic, just...something to go on. And it just doesn't work, not even now, not even when we were told they were in the best place they've ever been (after Sara died). Because that place? Still not good.

Edited January 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

I'm not sure that pre-existing history is the biggest factor.  Even if they had Oliver and Laurel meet during Season 1 and slowly develop a relationship, there's still the big hurdle of lack of chemistry.  If the two actors have great on-screen chemistry, you're gong to root for them regardless.  If they have little or zero chemistry, you can build the greatest romance in the world - but who'd want to watch it?

 

On The Flash, there's a whole history between Barry and Iris from before the pilot, but you can feel the warm bond between them.  On Arrow, what if there had been pre-existing history between Oliver and Felicity?  They have so much chemistry that people would probably still root for them and would've just wanted to learn that history through flashbacks.

[NumberCruncher]

I love how the EPs assume that chemistry between two actors is only important when there's romantic potential because its just important for any kind of of on-screen relationship. Why do they think that the total lack of chemistry between SA and KC will suddenly become a non-issue once she assumes the identity of BC working in tandem with the Arrow just because she's not jumping into bed with him? Looking at how many great platonic duos there have been throughout the TV universe I'm surprised they're still plowing ahead at full speed with a pairing that has been painfully awkward to watch the past 2-1/2 seasons.

[statsgirl]

bits of posts

It was a pairing that was fatally flawed, from the start. Because even without Oliver boning her sister, Laurel looked like a sap for ever putting up with his shit in the first place. They were together for years, but he had all these ex-girlfriends and flings. There's only one conclusion you can draw, and it seems like the writers never figured that out.

[snip]

it seems like both Oliver and Tommy put her on a pedestal (for no reason I could ever discern) and saw her as something special. In the end, she was just the girl who wanted to bang the sexy guy in the hood. Or her sexy ex-boyfriend who needed to only say he still wanted her, to win her over.

 

 

The biggest red flag for Laurel should've been the 10 other women. Not just one or two. Oliver cheated on her with 10 different women with one being her sister or she was number 11. Then there was he got a girl pregnant and still went on to sleep with Sara and bring her on month long cruise. That is someone that really doesn't want to be around his supposed love of his life. 

 

See, I think the possibility of romance between the two has been scrapped for a while now, and that the "I know you in my bones" speech was meant to be the beginning of a new phase of their relationship where they are not romantic partners, but friends who have shared a lot and are special to each other. Thing is, they fail at even that, because she's saying those words literally minutes after she's been let in to his actual life, for real, for the first time, and she still knows jack about him. I think they're desperately trying to form some kind of bond between these two. Not romantic, just...something to go on. And it just doesn't work, not even now, not even when we were told they were in the best place they've ever been (after Sara died). Because that place? Still not good.

There have been all kinds of problems in the writing for Laurel with the result that it's hurt her character not just in terms of Oliver, but in terms of being a viable DA much less the Black Canary.

 

I can understand why Tommy put her on a pedestal, because he was broken from losing both his parents at 8 and being in second place, Oliver's wingman. Even if he were in love with Laurel in high school and college and thought he would have been a better choice for her, I can't see him fighting Oliver for her.  Laurel was such a strong, definite person Lost Tommy would have been drawn to her.

 

We never really got to see why Oliver stayed with her other than because she was attractive and put up with his cheating and he was lazy.  The flashback scene where she tells him she has to help Sara with her trigonometry and Oliver replies "I don't even know what that it" would have had most smart girls shoving him out the door.  

 

Sleeping with 10 girls and Laurel ignoring it because she wants to marry Oliver Queen was the death of her; Oliver going taking Sara after he'd got a girl pregnant was the death of him. That's okay for him because he then has to go through five/eight years of hell to become a better person. Laurel still hasn't gone through enough to recover from it.

 

And the writing still fails because instead of having Oliver say in s1 that Laurel knew the real him while no one else did (still lying to her) and Laurel saying she knows him in her bones when she's just found out a secret other have known for 1 1/2 years, they should have had her realize this is a different Oliver than the one she knew and try to get to know him, acknowledging that others knew him better now.

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks Orion! I spent about an hour on google this morning but, couldn't find it. I think it was because I kept putting May 2013 in the search. I knew it was around the time of the finale, didn't realize it was end of April.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

I've never been totally clear. The 10 girls that Sara references - she didn't say "he's cheated on you ten times that we know of". So I was never sure whether we were supposed to assume those were while he was with Laurel or not.

[apinknightmare]

I've never been totally clear. The 10 girls that Sara references - she didn't say "he's cheated on you ten times that we know of". So I was never sure whether we were supposed to assume those were while he was with Laurel or not.

 

Yeah, I don't think that was meant to imply that he cheated on her with ten different people, just that they both knew of ten girls he'd slept with and who knows how many others. I think Sara was just trying to imply that he might not ever want to settle down because he wasn't the monogamous type. Not sure how many times he cheated on her or if she even knew about it. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I don't think that was meant to imply that he cheated on her with ten different people, just that they both knew of ten girls he'd slept with and who knows how many others. I think Sara was just trying to imply that he might not ever want to settle down because he wasn't the monogamous type. Not sure how many times he cheated on her or if she even knew about it.

Yeah that was kind of how I took it.