Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Velocity23]

I am usually not a fan of Julie Plec but this is hilarious

 

[Sakura12]

Caity Lotz took it in stride with her joking that she knew she had to stay away from twitter and facebook after that episode aired. Unlike someone else she is aware how popular Olicity is and isn't going to pretend there is nothing between those two characters. I also liked that her and SA talked to each other to come up with an explanation. What they came up with worked for me, since CL also said she knows why they wouldn't work long term. 

 

I'm not a fan of Julie Plec either but that's hilarious. Even other tv writers are probably thinking, just get rid of Laurel already. You got a great love interest and you got a great BC. Everything is set.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

omfg that is SO hilarious! I legit laughed. Then looked at it again, sadly I don't think she was talking to the same person

[SonofaBiscuit]

omfg that is SO hilarious! I legit laughed. Then looked at it again, sadly I don't think she was talking to the same person

 

Yeah, I was confused by that too.  Is she actually responding to someone else and not Thomas?  I know this is probably dumb, but I don't use twitter and find it confusing to try to follow conversations :)

[Velocity23]

https://twitter.com/julieplec/status/291015632038805504  yeah you probably right! But dont know who she was responding. Cuz the person tag has everything in russian. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by Velocity23

[Guest]

I agree with the posts here - I am sick of all the bashing of Olicity shippers. Sure, every fandom has a subset of fans that are more vocal (and more crazy) than the rest but I don't see what's wrong with being excited about what you love. Half the time I see Olicity fans screaming about how much they love them, I just laugh. It's funny. 

 

The thing is though, there will always be haters and they seem to get louder when something grows in popularity, which is what has happened with Olicity. I think people sort of tolerated it before because Olicity never seemed like a real threat but now it has been confirmed as happening, well, the noise from the haters is obvious and a little predictable. 

 

I was surprised that Caity Lotz received hate after Sara hooked up with Oliver. Why? It's obvious that relationship was going nowhere. It just seemed like O/S were jumping back into an old pattern where they needed comfort and they got that from each other. It was never written as some big love story. Really people need to start reading between the lines!

Edited July 31, 2014 by Guest

[Password]

 

I was surprised that Caity Lotz received hate after Sara hooked up with Oliver. Why? It's obvious that relationship was going nowhere. It just seemed like O/S were jumping back into an old pattern where they needed comfort and they got that from each other. It was never written as some big love story. Really people need to start reading between the lines!

For me it just made Sara and Oliver seem like insensitive douches. Then the dinner compounded that. I didn't particularly see why they stayed together, but that bothered me less when it made me look at Oliver differently. His horrible hypocritical "speech" to Laurel in the hallway had me cringing because he said stuff like "I've loved you for half of my life". I'm kinda like damn was THAT love? No one sort of went Oliver is that a good idea? But I'm guessing it's because they needed that confrontation so everyone was silent about the debacle.

I'd have preferred Sara going to Laurel because blood is thicker than water. But hey, they had to tank Oliver/Laurel so they did. Spectacularly.

[KirkB]

I wonder if Colin/Tommy got a lot of hate too. It seems to me that a lot of what was sent toward Caity is the same stuff EBR gets. Hate from the comics! people and O/L supporters who get pissed at anything that interferes with their epic love story.

 

That dinner pretty much PROVES Oliver and Sara were insensitive douches. I get why they hooked back up, and I even get why Sara asked him to come with her, but Oliver actually agreeing to go was insane. There is no possible way that could have turned out well for anyone and that was one of the few times I thought Laurel's reaction was completely justified.

Edited July 31, 2014 by KirkB

[Guest]

For me it just made Sara and Oliver seem like insensitive douches. Then the dinner compounded that. I didn't particularly see why they stayed together, but that bothered me less when it made me look at Oliver differently. His horrible hypocritical "speech" to Laurel in the hallway had me cringing because he said stuff like "I've loved you for half of my life". I'm kinda like damn was THAT love? No one sort of went Oliver is that a good idea? But I'm guessing it's because they needed that confrontation so everyone was silent about the debacle.

I'd have preferred Sara going to Laurel because blood is thicker than water. But hey, they had to tank Oliver/Laurel so they did. Spectacularly.

 

Yeah, they did look like insensitive douches. I agree. Even more so after going to that Lance family dinner. WTH was that?!! I actually felt sorry for Laurel then which is an achievement in itself! But I just saw it as the characters being human and making human mistakes. They both got wrapped up in their own selfish need for a while and didn't think about the consequences.  

 

And also like you said, it succeeded in sinking Laurel/Oliver, even though I didn't think any extra help was needed there!

[Password]

There is no possible way that could have turned out well for anyone and that was one of the few times I thought Laurel's reaction was completely justified.

Exactly. I won't lie. It kind of made me wish that exploding glass hit Sara. And Oliver went down in my estimation because again, it made me look at him differently.

[Sakura12]

The hate Caity got was from the Oliciters and Cassidy fans.

[FAU]

 

And also like you said, it succeeded in sinking Laurel/Oliver, even though I didn't think any extra help was needed there!

 

It shouldn't have been brought back in the first place, it should've stayed sunk along with the disgusting sister swapping on the Queen's boat.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I'm not sure why anyone would take out their feelings regarding what is happening on screen on an actor. They don't control what plays out. Half the time they are given their lines and the hit their marks. Amell seems to be more invested, but he's an exception. Most actors show up for work, do their scenes, eat kraft services, and vacation between seasons. 

 

I have never tweeted or messaged a writer or the EPs. I have through forums voiced my disappointment in their writing choices. Arrow writers seem to think we need to get from A to D. They just don't use B and C to get there. They'll reach for Q and L. The aspect of Arrow I am most disappointed in has been the writing and characterization. I'll debate and discuss on forums. If someone affiliated with Arrow happens to read, I hope they don't feel it comes from a place of anger or is mean-spirited. 

 

Matt from Tvline got upset one time when I responded to one of his comments beneath one of his articles. I wasn't being mean. I was being sarcastic about an aspect of the show. He took OFFENSE to it. Personally I thought he was being too sensitive, but I apologized and explained I didn't mean disrespect. He never responded. 

[blixie]

 

I've always believe that if anything is pandering, it's just about any scene with Laurel,

 

I'd say it's that going into S3 Sara Lance is still significant part of the storytelling canvas. Sara Lance who banged her sister's boyfriend, should have died on boat one, should have died on boat two, should have died on the island. Sara Lance who became an assassin, and who skipped back to that life with her assassin life partner who tried to kill her mother/sister, after spending the whole season angsting and conflicting over said assassinating lifestyle. The audience and the producers rightfully love Sara and CL as Black Canary, but strictly speaking I think the only good ending for her story is redemptive death. Yet, I think it's only 70/30 she'll die this season, and that's entirely dependent on some kind of miracle turn around in collective perceptions of KC's Laurel. There is no good *storytelling* reason to keep Sara around, especially given the comics canon of Laural as BC, but there is very good fan service reasons to keep CL forever and kill off/demote Laurel.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense. Felicity has expressed her own denial of her feelings when she told Barry she doesn't have feelings for Oliver. Barry didn't believe her, nobody watching believed her. Plus, if she's lying to herself, she has at least one very strong reason: she believes Oliver will never reciprocate. There are a whole bunch more reasons, but that one is good enough for her to try and dampen/deny her own feelings.

 

And even more than that, she has seen Boyfriend Oliver in action, yes she respects, admires, and trusts him in the general sort of way, but trusting him with her heart when she also is more than aware of all his ish is not something I expect her to be completely sold on.

 

 

to send Amell out to the SDCC press room to sell Oliver/Felicity with such conviction

 

I don't think I'll ever get over how much he owns the shit out of Olicity, "..No. It's Felicity." Heee. 

 

Considering the hot mess Julie Plec made of Damon/Elena I wouldn't be taking advice from her on how to play a romance out.

[wonderwall]

I'm on Tvline actually! What did you say? 

 

I'm wonderwall there as well if you want to know :) 

[wonderwall]

I found this on tumblr and it made me smile :p I wish Team Arrow had more lighter moments like these: 

 

They were standing at the edge of the forest, their only exit was a trick shot he’d perfected on the island that would send his arrow straight into a tree and release the specialty arrow that Felicity had created for him attached to a wire and a grappling hook. With their targets subdued, he had time to line up his shot, his mind working on auto pilot as he centered himself, taking in all outside factors before he finally released the arrow. It sailed through the air and he smirked, satisfied that it would find its target. He was about to turn around and grab his gear when he heard a whistling noise. His eyes zeroed in on the arrow as it continued to cut through the air, its trajectory now skewed to the left as a strong gust of wind forced it off its path. He cursed under his breath when he heard his partners snickering beside him.

 

"Wow," Felicity said, trying to suppress a giggle. He turned to glare at her.

 

"Well, there’s a first time for everything," Diggle added, also trying to hide his grin.

 

Oliver turned back around, grabbing another arrow from his quiver before muttering, “Stupid, fucking breezes…”

 

It only served to make his partners double over in laughter.  --- Source

 

-----------

 

I'm such a dweeb sometimes :p 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I can't remember exactly how I said it. Matt was pimping Laurel and it was after one of the horrible Lance Family drama episodes. He said something to the effect of "I was given a preview and Laurel will be redeemed" or something to a response by another fan. I said something to the effect of "she's got a long way to go before she'll find redemption with most fans" he got all snippy about it. Actually called me rude. I don't have the energy to go back and find it. I didn't mean anything by it and it was all within what I thought was discussion concerning the show. After that incident, I basically avoid Tvline and comments. I might read the articles, but I NEVER scroll down to comments anymore. I end up wanting to say something, but I won't be told I'm rude because I have an opinion which differs from his.

[hogwash]

I'll admit to being unhappy with the Sara/Oliver hookup. Mostly because I saw my hopes of a really good Laurel/Sara reunion floating away like dust in the ether the moment they decide to plop Oliver right back in the middle of their relationship. Whether you're OK with the hookup or not, that's pretty much what the show did. There was absolutely no way it wouldn't be a source of conflict between Sara/Laurel. To have it happen before they even bothered to let Laurel/Sara have an actual conversation or any "airing of grievances" told me that I wasn't gonna get anything good out of the Laurel/Sara thing (side note: Laurel giving Sara dating advice for her relationship with Oliver?! Really?! Why?? In what freaking universe would you ever put that in a script, let alone in the actual show?!).

 

Mama Lance thinks Sara is still alive (along with the Laurel as Thea's mentor thing) was the only halfway competent/decent arc Laurel got in s01. So, I was somewhat excited to see how the show would handle Sara/Laurel interactions. They created the sister-swapping fiasco, so inevitably they had to deal with the fallout when Sara returned. If done right, it might have been good (and bonus points, the start of a good arc for Laurel who desperately needed one by that point in s02). Instead, the lunge happened and it was over before it even started. Then those awkward Lance dinner with Oliver stills were released and it was really really over. Oh well. 

 

It's been awhile since it happened so I've read tons of justifications and meta about it but I'm still annoyed by it. I would have been more OK with it if it had been just comfort sex like so many people argued, but it seemed like the show had them in a meaningful relationship with real feelings that had no basis or buildup in Sara's interactions with Oliver earlier in the season, the flashbacks we were shown, or the backstory we got in s01 (Oliver deciding to torpedo his relationship with Laurel by sleeping with her sister because he was a spineless butthole who couldn't handle anything serious). Having Sara go back to the Arrow Cave specifically instead of her Watchtower was either plot contrivance to get the Black Canary/Green Arrow hookup or she was looking for Oliver (probably, the former....) Either way, it was a really bad start to the Lance family drama that could have been good but only managed to get worse.

[Starfish35]

Well the last time she was in the clock tower it was trashed by the LoA, so I can see why she wouldn't have gone back there.

[Password]

I'll admit to being unhappy with the Sara/Oliver hookup. Mostly because I saw my hopes of a really good Laurel/Sara reunion floating away like dust in the ether the moment they decide to plop Oliver right back in the middle of their relationship. Whether you're OK with the hookup or not, that's pretty much what the show did. There was absolutely no way it wouldn't be a source of conflict between Sara/Laurel. To have it happen before they even bothered to let Laurel/Sara have an actual conversation or any "airing of grievances" told me that I wasn't gonna get anything good out of the Laurel/Sara thing (side note: Laurel giving Sara dating advice for her relationship with Oliver?! Really?! Why?? In what freaking universe would you ever put that in a script, let alone in the actual show?!).

Mama Lance thinks Sara is still alive (along with the Laurel as Thea's mentor thing) was the only halfway competent/decent arc Laurel got in s01. So, I was somewhat excited to see how the show would handle Sara/Laurel interactions. They created the sister-swapping fiasco, so inevitably they had to deal with the fallout when Sara returned. If done right, it might have been good (and bonus points, the start of a good arc for Laurel who desperately needed one by that point in s02). Instead, the lunge happened and it was over before it even started. Then those awkward Lance dinner with Oliver stills were released and it was really really over. Oh well.

It's been awhile since it happened so I've read tons of justifications and meta about it but I'm still annoyed by it. I would have been more OK with it if it had been just comfort sex like so many people argued, but it seemed like the show had them in a meaningful relationship with real feelings that had no basis or buildup in Sara's interactions with Oliver earlier in the season, the flashbacks we were shown, or the backstory we got in s01 (Oliver deciding to torpedo his relationship with Laurel by sleeping with her sister because he was a spineless butthole who couldn't handle anything serious). Having Sara go back to the Arrow Cave specifically instead of her Watchtower was either plot contrivance to get the Black Canary/Green Arrow hookup or she was looking for Oliver (probably, the former....) Either way, it was a really bad start to the Lance family drama that could have been good but only managed to get worse.

You hit on the head pretty much all the things I thought of that whole Lance arc. It could've been Laurel and Sara really hashing it out, but because it's a show about Oliver, he had to deliver that wonderful talk in the hallway. Gross. I also agree that as much as people were saying it was just comfort, I never felt like that.

I really hope Sara and Laurel get SOME quality time to just talk. They need it desperately. Without Oliver.

Edited July 31, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Sakura12]

I think they did show us that Oliver and Sara did cared about each other more then they did during their first hook up. They did go through a lot together on that Island, Sara knew more about what happened to him there then anyone else. Oliver was willing to let the Lance's hate him again just so Sara could go home. That showed me how much he cared about her. 

 

When Diggle and Felicity yelled at Oliver to tell the Lance's that Sara was alive, he refused. Because he owed it to her after what they went thought to talk to her about it first. Dig and Felicity didn't understand. I saw that as Oliver thinking he finally had someone that understood. Then when she left, he was angry because he thought he lost her again. So I saw her returning home again as him wanting to cling to her, because he was afraid of losing her. Which makes complete sense to me, he pretty much watched her almost die three times by then. I also believe their hook up in the lair was comfort sex, but then they just figured why not give it a shot. It was stupid and selfish but also human. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by Sakura12

[hogwash]

 

Well the last time she was in the clock tower it was trashed by the LoA, so I can see why she wouldn't have gone back there.

Really? This is what I get for skipping through episodes. I thought she and Oliver were sleeping there in the beginning of the Suicide Squad(?) episode. I guess it could been trashed and fixed up by then....(

I should probably go back and rewatch those episodes so I'll have a better clue of what I'm talking about but I probably just skip/cringe through them again...

 

 

I think they did show us that Oliver and Sara did cared about each other more then they did during their first hook up. They did go through a lot together on that Island, Sara knew more about what happened to him there then anyone else. Oliver was willing to let the Lance's hate him again just so Sara could go home. That showed me how much he cared about her.

I definitely think that Oliver/Sara cared about each other. I could even fanwank that there was some romantic undercurrents in their earlier s02 interactions, but I don't think them starting a relationship made any sense beyond basic comfort sex. You know, with the conversations about moving in together, and the kissing each other before going off vigilanteing.  I could see Oliver wanting one (it's pretty par for the course for him; this show has very weird ideas about how playboys are supposed to act) but with Sara there wasn't much indication that she wanted one. She didn't tell him she was in Starling City. She was only interested in stalking Laurel. She only came back to Starling City because Oliver told her Laurel was in trouble/spiraling. So, I was hopeful that that would mean Laurel/Sara instead of more sister-swapping triangle from HELL. I guess the show figured it was such a great idea that it was worth revisiting...Yay. 

[Starfish35]

Really? This is what I get for skipping through episodes. I thought she and Oliver were sleeping there in the beginning of the Suicide Squad(?) episode.

I thought they were in the Arrowcave/foundry. Were they not? Does someone remember?

I didn't think they went back to the clock tower until the finale, when they were looking for a place to hide Roy.

[Password]

If anything, Oliver being so understanding about Sara leaving in the first half of season 2 invalidates what the hell he decided to do at the end of ep 13. He was self sacrificing, showing he cared about Sara above himself. He showed such wonderful growth, and then he's a stalker whining about needing her and I'm like eh? For me it just seemed like no one, Oliver included saw anything off about being around Laurel and being with Sara. It was all hunky dory, love and sparkles, 6 years ago didn't happen for reeaaaal. Laurel doesn't factor into this equation because I hurt her so long ago that she should be over it. Hmph. 

 

But mostly I'm disturbed by the broken relationship Laurel and Sara have. I have 2 older sisters, and it makes me sick to the stomach to think of the nonsense these two got/get up to concerning each other. And now it seems

Sara might be going dark to facilitate Laurel's journey so chances of their reconciliation, even though mentioned in the premiere, are low.

 

Please don't remind about the sexcapades in the foundry. Yes, that's where they lived (because Oliver didn't want to get an actual apartment for himself because reasons).

Edited July 31, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[poetgirl925]

I was a kid,  but I remember watching Moonlighting the season of the big hook up and the problem was that there was nothing between the two characters except old will they or won't they tension from a couple seasons earlier.   In the later seasons the show had kind of had them off doing their own thing with other people (or at least that's what I remember from thirty years ago)

 

Then when they put them together it was just a sex thing but the sex scene was more about all the crap they broke as they very un-sexily crashed around on the floor than their great love.  After vowing never to do it again and then they did it again for a contrived reason (Were you on birth control?  Yes.  Oh, had I known that I really would have been able to just let go and enjoy it more.- I'm not making this crap up!!!  ) and though it was played as supposedly a passionate encounter in the backseat of a car, I remember thinking it seemed paint by the numbers,  more than a bit ridiculous, overacted and there just was no heart to it.

 

I think that's the real Moonlighting curse, not making your couple likable together.  They have to grow together and more than anything, I think if they've been a will they or won't they kind of couple, they show has to have proved that they like or at least deeply respect the other person and that is NOT what I remember from Moonlighting.  And isn't there a rule about being together making them a better person (or at least striving for it?)  I remember them being static, not really changed or impacted by the other person.  It felt pointless. 

Lol is that really the basis of the whole Moonlighting curse? Because if it is, that's hilarious. I'd never even heard of Moonlighting until someone in a forum talked about the Moonlighting curse. It sounds like it's more of a terrible writing curse than anything else, so I've never understood using that as an excuse to drag out story. I do vaguely remember my mom watching re-runs of Remington Steele and something called Scarecrow? About a CIA agent? I can't remember.

I think if you tell a good story, you don't need excuses. Arrow is about so much more than romance that I think it's silly to use romance the way they have. Sometimes their romance subplots just confused me because I couldn't figure out where they were going with it.

Larry King is hilarious. When did he tweet that?

[KenyaJ]

I don't think I'll ever get over how much he owns the shit out of Olicity, "..No. It's Felicity." Heee. 

 

LOL. I loved watching his face every time he talked about them while doing SDCC press. He'd try to be all stoic while the interviewer was asking the question, but once he started talking, he couldn't hold back his smile. He seems really and happy about the direction of their relationship.

 

Also, all these posts about Sara/Oliver/Laurel are reminding me just how gross that storyline was. And they could have played all the same beats (jealousy, resentment, understanding, comfort) without having Sara and Oliver sleep together. Other than the sisters aspect, I didn't have a problem with their relationship, but the sisters aspect was disturbing enough to taint the entire relationship for me.

Edited July 31, 2014 by KenyaJ

[hogwash]

If anything, Oliver being so understanding about Sara leaving in the first half of season 2 invalidates what the hell he decided to do at the end of ep 13.

That's definitely what I meant about the show having weird ideas about how playboys typically act. They tend to make him weirdly intense and focused when they put him these romantic relationships (i.e. wanting to move off to Coast City with McKenna after a couple of months of dating, sleeping with Laurel after telling Tommy to go for it, pretty much EVERYTHING that happened with Helena, etc.).

I hope they've fixed this tendency by s03 with Felicity as the love interest. There's precedence for him being a bit overprotective when it comes to her and they have built up him caring about her relatively well. But I don't want to see him being blind to everything else going on for a love interest yet again (it's horrible character trait).

 

 

I thought they were in the Arrowcave/foundry. Were they not? Does someone remember?

I checked the wikia (it's adorable that the show actually has one!) and it says Sara/Oliver are sleeping in the clocktower, then he has a weird Sara/Shado nightmare and gets up to look out a window (there's no windows in the foundry). But it could have still been screwed up in ep 13. 

 

Honestly the hookup would have been fine (though really really really stupid) if they let Sara/Laurel have an actual conversation at some point outside of Oliver before being all hunky dory with each other (though no relationship advice under any circumstances). Instead, Oliver goes after her (after she storms out of her own apartment) and gives that very ugh speech which only served to torpedo Lauliver/Lauriver(?), which was already dead as soon as the lunge happened. I would have rather seen Laurel/Sara screaming at each other (boy, did they have plenty to yell and scream about) but outside of the exploding glass that didn't happened. Laurel just asked for Sara's forgiveness, which Sara didn't reciprocate, all while implying that Oliver's ugh hallway speech was the catalyst for this turn around. It was all a big pile of no for me. I'm hoping that now that that whole thing is hopefully  over (please please, on all that's good in the world, be over!!!) that they can do something with Laurel/Sara without having Oliver right dab in the middle.

Though I'm sure there's Canary!Laurel shenanigans waiting in the wings to screw up Laurel/Sara all over again.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry that I keep talking/harping about this. I'm still a little annoyed about not getting the Laurel/Sara reunion I wanted

thanks, Oliver!

. But I promise I'm mostly done.

Edited July 31, 2014 by hogwash

[Starfish35]

I checked the wikia (it's adorable that the show actually has one!) and it says Sara/Oliver are sleeping in the clocktower, then he has a weird Sara/Shado nightmare and gets up to look out a window (there's no windows in the foundry). But it could have still been screwed up in ep 13.

Interesting. I don't know that it ever occurred to me that they were at the clock tower. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone mention it before.

I didn't know Arrow had a wikia. Good to know.

[Sakura12]

They never really mentioned where they were, The Clocktower makes the most sense, Sara and Sin were living there before and I believe they were still living there. Because when Roydrage was running around town, Sara told Sin to go home and Sin said she was home then we saw Oliver and Sara at the Clocktower fighting Roy. 

 

For me I'd rather see more of the Sin and Sara sister relationship then Sara and Laurel. 

[Guest]

You guys talking about Sara/Oliver waking up in the clock tower makes me realize how much I blanked on a quite a few of the mid-season episodes. They weren't very memorable. Maybe because so much time was focused on the Lance's and I generally prefer Team Arrow above anything else. 

 

Still, to keep this post on topic, I did like Sara and Laurel's little talk at the end of the season but it still wasn't enough for me. They have so much bad history to talk about that a few words here and there doesn't even begin to cover it.

[poetgirl925]

Still, to keep this post on topic, I did like Sara and Laurel's little talk at the end of the season but it still wasn't enough for me. They have so much bad history to talk about that a few words here and there doesn't even begin to cover it.

They kept dropping little bombs in flashbacks about the Sara/Laurel relationship, like Sara saying she wanted Oliver first and Laurel torpedoed her chances. She said something like... Oliver didn't know Laurel as well as he thought he did? Something like that. Then Sara tried to wake Laurel up from her Oliver delusions and Laurel got defensive. With all of these things, I was interested in the sister relationship. I thought we'd see more, but it ultimately went nowhere. Basically, that information seems to have been used to help us forgive Sara for her past wrongs. Having Laurel apologize to Sara and (ugh) support her relationship with Oliver was more of the same. The writers were unraveling the L/O love story and Laurel's character at the same time though. I just can't figure out if that was deliberate or an unintended consequence.

I also got the feeling that the Sara/Oliver relationship was about more than comfort sex. Oliver has been weirdly intense in his various relationships, aside from Isabel. The thing that confuses me is S1 Oliver suffered from PTSD. He still does though perhaps not to the same degree since they're showing him progressing as a character. And I actually have experience with being in a relationship with someone who has PTSD. During the 7 years I dated my ex-fiance, he was deployed 3 times. He was a captain at the time (later a major) and his job was EOD (basically like The Hurt Locker.) So this thing where Oliver compartmentalizes his feelings and puts people in boxes to protect himself? I totally understand that because I lived it and it's ultimately why I broke my engagement even though my fiancé was a very good man. He had trouble opening up and allowing me to connect with him emotionally, which goes along with PTSD. But then with Helena and McKenna and Sara, Oliver seems to have been looking for a deeper connection and that doesn't fit with my experiences with a man who has PTSD at all. It doesn't fit the playboy image. I don't know how to fit Laurel into that either because their end of S1 sex lunge seemed OOC for Laurel and was over before it even started. It also wasn't very romantic since Tommy was watching. I don't remember mood music and mood lighting like we got with Helena.

Felicity fits into a lot of boxes besides romantic partner, so I can see him having trouble reconciling his feelings with the their mission and her place on the team. The blow ups when compartmentalizing fails? That's consistent with Oliver having PTSD and I guess I can explain his intense reactions to things involving Felicity by saying his feelings were stronger than he realized. But I still feel that Oliver is too damaged to make a relationship work with anyone right now, so I'd need to see some emotional healing and growth for his character first.

[TanyaKay]

(side note: Laurel giving Sara dating advice for her relationship with Oliver?! Really?! Why?? In what freaking universe would you ever put that in a script, let alone in the actual show?!).

 

 

But this is what the Arrow writers do - get the former lover to dish out romantic advice!

 

I you guys remember, Oliver dished out romantic advice to Laurel and Tommy at least thrice in season one. Once when Laurel refused to give Tommy a drawer in her home and then Oliver asked her about drawer gate and Laurel said that oh, tommy talked to you about it. The other time was when Laurel started this secret relationship with the vigilante and Tommy voiced his insecurities about coming second to the vigilante in Laurel's eyes and Oliver advised him to talk to Laurel. Then when Tommy finally broke up with Laurel and she showed up at Verdant asking Oliver to speak to Tommy on her behalf, he also told her to talk to Tommy.

 

Getting the ex to play love guru is an Arrow thing.

 

I am willing to bet my pinkie finger that Sara Lance - another ex - would offer Oliver romantic advice in dealing with his feelings for Felicity in season 3.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't know if telling someone to go talk to the person they are having issues with though is relationship advice so much as common sense. Don't come to me to discuss issues with your spouse/lover/mother/sibling if you aren't willing to talk to them. I read it more as Oliver wanting to stay out of it so he was basically "go deal with your issue with so-and-so and leave me out of it."

 

Sara's "you need someone to harness the light" was definitely more relationship advice because everyone knew who she was talking about. Until she told Laurel Oliver needed her. Then it got confusing for a beat.

[TanyaKay]

but the whole drawer gate bit was Oliver getting into their business. He also offered advice to Tommy about Laurel a few times which I cannot recall right now but found very odd when it aired. The only sensible bit was when Laurel came to Oliver at the end of season, he told her to go talk to Tommy and then told Tommy to go talk to Laurel. However he negated all that good advice by beating Tommy to Laurel's apartment and hooking up with her over Imagine Dragon's song radioactive

[dtissagirl]

I felt so freaking justified in my gratuitous hatred for Imagine Dragons at that moment, it was awesome. It was like a culmination of all things I hated suddenly put together in a super creepy sex scene that had a dude watching from the other side of the street.  Also, every time I remember that scene I get creeped out again, because I imagine rando passers-by seeing into Laurel's bedroom. BUY SOME CURTAINS, LAUREL.

[Guest]

They kept dropping little bombs in flashbacks about the Sara/Laurel relationship, like Sara saying she wanted Oliver first and Laurel torpedoed her chances. She said something like... Oliver didn't know Laurel as well as he thought he did? Something like that. Then Sara tried to wake Laurel up from her Oliver delusions and Laurel got defensive. With all of these things, I was interested in the sister relationship. I thought we'd see more, but it ultimately went nowhere. Basically, that information seems to have been used to help us forgive Sara for her past wrongs. Having Laurel apologize to Sara and (ugh) support her relationship with Oliver was more of the same. The writers were unraveling the L/O love story and Laurel's character at the same time though. I just can't figure out if that was deliberate or an unintended consequence.

I also got the feeling that the Sara/Oliver relationship was about more than comfort sex. Oliver has been weirdly intense in his various relationships, aside from Isabel. The thing that confuses me is S1 Oliver suffered from PTSD. He still does though perhaps not to the same degree since they're showing him progressing as a character. And I actually have experience with being in a relationship with someone who has PTSD. During the 7 years I dated my ex-fiance, he was deployed 3 times. He was a captain at the time (later a major) and his job was EOD (basically like The Hurt Locker.) So this thing where Oliver compartmentalizes his feelings and puts people in boxes to protect himself? I totally understand that because I lived it and it's ultimately why I broke my engagement even though my fiancé was a very good man. He had trouble opening up and allowing me to connect with him emotionally, which goes along with PTSD. But then with Helena and McKenna and Sara, Oliver seems to have been looking for a deeper connection and that doesn't fit with my experiences with a man who has PTSD at all. It doesn't fit the playboy image. I don't know how to fit Laurel into that either because their end of S1 sex lunge seemed OOC for Laurel and was over before it even started. It also wasn't very romantic since Tommy was watching. I don't remember mood music and mood lighting like we got with Helena.

Felicity fits into a lot of boxes besides romantic partner, so I can see him having trouble reconciling his feelings with the their mission and her place on the team. The blow ups when compartmentalizing fails? That's consistent with Oliver having PTSD and I guess I can explain his intense reactions to things involving Felicity by saying his feelings were stronger than he realized. But I still feel that Oliver is too damaged to make a relationship work with anyone right now, so I'd need to see some emotional healing and growth for his character first.

 

Yeah, I was surprised by the Sara/Laurel flashbacks because it felt like they were trying to make the audience more sympathetic towards Sara by making her something other than the girl who slept with her sister's boyfriend. I can see why they'd want to do that to make Sara more palatable but in doing so this had a negative knock-on effect on Laurel, which is the last thing her character needed. I think a simple present-day conversation and apology would have served just as well rather than sullying their characters and relationship even further so I don't understand the writing there either. The only thing I can think is it really was to sink the L/O 'ship' for good but as I've said before, that really didn't need help. 

 

I agree that Oliver seems intensely attached to the women he sleeps with. I never really saw Oliver/Sara as more than comfort sex during s2 though. I do think he had feelings for Sara but I don't think he was in love with her at all. It didn't read that way to me. I saw it as more of a fondness for something they used to have. I think they turned to each other at a time of need and fell into a relationship because it was easy and comfortable and those were both things they needed at that point in time. Yeah it was messed up because they were hurting people in the process and I would have preferred if it had just been a one time thing that they both agreed was a mistake but again, I don't understand the writing there. I never read any of their interactions as romantic.

 

I agree that Oliver isn't exactly ready for a romantic relationship with Felicity yet but I can see him making progress with that this season. I liked the part in the trailer where he was willingly opening up to Felicity about not being on the island the whole five years which is huge progress if you compare the similar conversation he had on a date with McKenna in s1. So I think the love is there, the want and desire to share his life is all there but he has some ways to go before he gets it right. I guess that's what s3 is all about. 

I felt so freaking justified in my gratuitous hatred for Imagine Dragons at that moment, it was awesome. It was like a culmination of all things I hated suddenly put together in a super creepy sex scene that had a dude watching from the other side of the street.  Also, every time I remember that scene I get creeped out again, because I imagine rando passers-by seeing into Laurel's bedroom. BUY SOME CURTAINS, LAUREL.

 

Radioactive was such a weird song to put on a love scene though that it didn't feel like this was a love scene I should have been waiting for. It felt wrong, which it was because Tommy was watching and Oliver was being the worst kind of friend ever. Don't they sing something about an apocalypse?!!! Weird song choice IMO.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Guest

[TanyaKay]

I think the song was perfect choice ... their relationship was toxic and the sex scene was apocalyptically bad because their bestie (Tommy) was breaking his heart looking through the window (The bloopers show that it was indeed apocalyptically bad because Stephen either dropped KC or they both fell on the ground while filming) so I say that the song went quite well with that scene.

Majorly creepy

Edited August 1, 2014 by TanyaKay

[Guest]

I think the song was perfect choice ... their relationship was toxic and the sex scene was apocalyptically bad because they bestie was breaking his heart looking through the window (The bloopers show that it was indeed apocalyptically bad because Stephen either dropped KC or they both fell on the ground while filming) so I say that the song went quite well with that scene.

Majorly creepy

 

It was a perfect choice for how I (and many people) viewed their relationship, but at the time I thought they were still trying to 'sell' the idea of L/O being soulmates forever in love and that's why it felt weird. The song didn't add up to what the EP's had been repeating which was L/O were the big love story. I never did understand it.

 

But yeah, I agree it went well with how I view them as a pairing. 

[poetgirl925]

Oh, I forgot the song playing in that scene was Radioactive. It's kind of hard to believe it was ever intended to be romantic since they set it up that way. I was also under the impression they were still trying to sell that romance but maybe not? As others pointed out they set off down another path fairly quickly in S2, with Laurel and Oliver friend zoning each other and the Oliver and Felicity interactions being set up, also quickly. Their continuity wrt romance has been a bit rocky, so I sometimes felt unsure about what I was seeing and what I was supposed to be taking away from the story.

[hogwash]

I agree that Oliver isn't exactly ready for a romantic relationship with Felicity yet but I can see him making progress with that this season. 

 

I definitely don't think Oliver is ready for a relationship with Felicity either but they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the finale. He told her loved her and he acknowledged that he was her partner by letting her be a big part of the take down Slade plan. So, with one fell swoop in the finale, they kinda destroyed both those barriers to the Felicity/Oliver thing. So, they kinda have to move forward with the relationship, but not since Oliver is in no position for it mentally (even though he wants it to happen). It could be interesting to see how the show handles/stalls it. 

 

A similar thing happened by ep11 of s02. All the romantic beats were there to the point were it was both too fast for them to be together but also a little weird that neither of them said screw it and just went for it ("Maybe he's dreaming about you" was definitely my big *wait, they're actually going for this?!* moment). But then the show just threw Sara/Oliver (grumble grumble) and *we can't be together because danger* to slow it down. Plus, despite the somewhat intense and steady build-up, they had plausible deniability when it came to Oliver's feelings (which they used to their advantage with the Oliver being jealous over Barry/Felicity thing) and the unequal relationship between Felicity/Oliver to stall the relationship. With all that (mostly) gone, I think they'll go for Oliver's tortured past/PTSD to stall them at this time.

This is why Ray Palmer as Felicity's love interest is a little confusing to me. Even if they do have Felicity in a legit relationship with him, she's still in love with Oliver and (presumably) on Team Arrow. So, the relationship will just feel like an ineffective stalling tactic (Sara/Oliver worked because there were other factors at play) until Oliver gets his shit together enough to be OK to begin again after the 3x01 date goes to shit. 

I would love it if that's what they did cause I like when they explore how his guilt/self-loathing/trauma/etc. from past experiences color and affect his present life in Starling City way more than when they kill characters in Starling City to get the same development.

 

Radioactive was a very bizarre choice. Panning down to Tommy watching them from across the street was even more bizarre. Laurel/Oliver full of weird choices on the part of the showrunners. It's like they couldn't help themselves (or they were actively sabotaging it by that point--a dead best friend/ex-boyfriend on top of cheating with a "dead" sister are strange things to put on the hero's main romantic relationship). The spoilers we've been getting and the weirdness of Tommy/Laurel/Oliver at the end of s01 reminds of a couple of people saying that the show trying to go for their original s02 plan for Laurel/Oliver with Felicity instead. I think I'm buying that theory a little more now...

 

(Yay! I figured out how to properly quote!)

[FAU]

 

Radioactive was a very bizarre choice. Panning down to Tommy watching them from across the street was even more bizarre. Laurel/Oliver full of weird choices on the part of the showrunners. It's like they couldn't help themselves (or they were actively sabotaging it by that point--a dead best friend/ex-boyfriend on top of cheating with a "dead" sister are strange things to put on the hero's main romantic relationship). The spoilers we've been getting and the weirdness of Tommy/Laurel/Oliver at the end of s01 reminds of a couple of people saying that the show trying to go for their original s02 plan for Laurel/Oliver with Felicity instead. I think I'm buying that theory a little more now...

 

It's those weird choices with Laurel's character and the Oliver.Laurel relationship that makes me question why they're doing whatever the hell they're doing and they're also the major disconnect with the interviews and what's actually happening on screen.

[Guest]

I definitely don't think Oliver is ready for a relationship with Felicity either but they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the finale. He told her loved her and he acknowledged that he was her partner by letting her be a big part of the take down Slade plan. So, with one fell swoop in the finale, they kinda destroyed both those barriers to the Felicity/Oliver thing. So, they kinda have to move forward with the relationship, but not since Oliver is in no position for it mentally (even though he wants it to happen). It could be interesting to see how the show handles/stalls it. 

 

A similar thing happened by ep11 of s02. All the romantic beats were there to the point were it was both too fast for them to be together but also a little weird that neither of them said screw it and just went for it ("Maybe he's dreaming about you" was definitely my big *wait, they're actually going for this?!* moment). But then the show just threw Sara/Oliver (grumble grumble) and *we can't be together because danger* to slow it down. Plus, despite the somewhat intense and steady build-up, they had plausible deniability when it came to Oliver's feelings (which they used to their advantage with the Oliver being jealous over Barry/Felicity thing) and the unequal relationship between Felicity/Oliver to stall the relationship. With all that (mostly) gone, I think they'll go for Oliver's tortured past/PTSD to stall them at this time.

This is why Ray Palmer as Felicity's love interest is a little confusing to me. Even if they do have Felicity in a legit relationship with him, she's still in love with Oliver and (presumably) on Team Arrow. So, the relationship will just feel like an ineffective stalling tactic (Sara/Oliver worked because there were other factors at play) until Oliver gets his shit together enough to be OK to begin again after the 3x01 date goes to shit. 

I would love it if that's what they did cause I like when they explore how his guilt/self-loathing/trauma/etc. from past experiences color and affect his present life in Starling City way more than when they kill characters in Starling City to get the same development.

 

The spoilers we've been getting and the weirdness of Tommy/Laurel/Oliver at the end of s01 reminds of a couple of people saying that the show trying to go for their original s02 plan for Laurel/Oliver with Felicity instead. I think I'm buying that theory a little more now...

 

This is interesting because this is not the first time I've seen people say that the beginning of s2 was a fast set up full of romantic beats between Oliver and Felicity. I don't quite agree with that. I do think they were building towards something but I never saw it as too fast and I never saw all of their interactions as romantic. I just saw it as a deepening of their friendship and bond. Like when Felicity told Oliver the truth about Thea being Malcolm's daughter, I thought that would have strengthened their trust. Things like that.

 

It would have been weird to me if they had just said 'F**k it!' and kissed or whatever. That would have been too fast. I like to think that Oliver was starting to become aware of his feelings around the Russia and State vs Queen episodes but never really acknowledged or understood them. Also Oliver doesn't believe he deserves good things, esp not someone like Felicity, so I can see why he maybe put a halt on whatever he was feeling and I can see why he turned to Sara for comfort instead. Felicity is not someone he could mess around with. His relationship with her is too important, both personally and professionally and on the team. So him falling into whatever it was with Sara didn't seem all that surprising because he knows Sara was in a similar sort of mindset as him. He knows Sara is gonna come and go but Felicity is pretty much a constant and he wants her to remain that way.

 

I totally agree with you about Ray. I get why they're doing it but I also don't think it's gonna change much of anything. It's obvious that O/F are going to declare their love for each other in the season opener and those feelings are not going to disappear even if they're not together. So I don't know how they're going to approach that. I hope they do it carefully. Right now I think they're doing it so Oliver has a chance to grow and learn that he can be OIiver and the Arrow and Felicity has the chance to experience a life outside of the team but in the end she'll know wholeheartedly that it's Oliver she really wants. I don't think Ray is a serious threat at all but I do hope they handle it carefully.

 

Yeah, agreed. I think Felicity is definitely being set up as THE romance for Oliver. I'm glad though. I really like who they are with each other. Felicity just brings a lightness in Oliver I haven't seen. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Guest

[TanyaKay]

Come on .... the minute the camera panned onto Tommy's anguish filled face, I knew it that Laurel and Oliver were done - even though they were literally at it like rabbits at that time. Everyone liked Tommy, he was the nice guy, smart and funny and obviously in love with a girl who did not love him back. He had a horrible dad, a dead mother and a friend who screwed him over and lied to him, how can anyone amongst the audience would not root for him?

Then 2x01 happened and they said that they cannot be together because of Tommy, though Laurel and her very short memory span forgot that and she tried to kiss Oliver again in 2x05 but by then Sara was back in picture and Oliver was not really in the mood. 2x14 was the final nail in the coffin.

Edited August 1, 2014 by TanyaKay

[BkWurm1]

@poetgirl925

 

I do vaguely remember my mom watching re-runs of Remington Steele and something called Scarecrow? About a CIA agent? I can't remember.

 

Scarecrow and Mrs. King.  Bruce Boxleitner and Kate Jackson.  Yep, I was an avid viewer for many years too.  Set during the last years of the cold war, divorced suburban mom Amanda King lives with her two young boys and her mother Dotty.  She gets bumped into by Secret Agent Lee Stetson at the train station who begs her to get on the train and hand the box to the man in the red hat.  She gets on the train (with only a coat over her nightgown) but ever body on the train is wearing a red fez hat.  So she takes the box home.  Crazy spy stuff ensues.  

 

She babbles waaaaaay more than Felicity every could.  Just won't shut up but she's good at reading people and people like her and oh, she is looking for a job so they let her do some at home typing for the agency and somehow she keeps ending up helping the super suave secret agent.    Show ended with a fizzle because the lead actress got cancer (she recovered and is still good today) and was largely absent in the final episodes but the show left the relationship in a good place. 

 

Scarecrow & Mrs. King is more dated than Remington Steele with the cold war plots (lots of evil Russians), lacks some of the timeless elegance and you have to adjust to her weird hair after the 1st season but its a great show for showing growth as friends and then partners and lovers the trust and affection and love that goes with it. 

 

I enjoyed the show but it took the male lead a long time to appreciate the female lead's chatter and I much prefer the dynamic they set up between Oliver and Felicity where he finds her charming right away rather than annoying and actively wants her help rather than fighting against it again and again. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

Come on .... the minute the camera panned onto Tommy's anguish filled face, I knew it that Laurel and Oliver were done - even though they were literally at it like rabbits at that time

 

They were certainly over for me.  I didn't like them from the beginning but Oliver had JUST told Tommy to man up and go for it.  Just, arghh!

 

. Everyone liked Tommy, he was the nice guy, smart and funny and obviously in love with a girl who did not love him back. He had a horrible dad, a dead mother and a friend who screwed him over and lied to him, how can anyone amongst the audience would not root for him?

 

 

To top it off, he, the normal guy, not the hero, risks his life to save Laurel even after she's basically betrayed him and in the process of saving her life, dies.  That scene where Laurel is trapped and crying for someone to come save her and the camera pans up to the face of her rescuer and the audience expects it to be Oliver but no, it's Tommy.  In that moment, I felt like Laurel FINALLY got it that Tommy was the one she really loved and even though I was mad at her for what she'd done, I was hoping they could be together because I wanted Tommy to have his win.  And then they killed him.

 

Ugh.  Oliver's high pitched, broken voice saying his best friend's name just kills me. 

 

Then 2x01 happened and they said that they cannot be together because of Tommy

 

I was still pissed at them at the start of season two.  I kind of hated that Laurel said they shouldn't be together because they'd betrayed Tommy but she seemed to be emoting that it was a tragic thing that they were being kept apart.  Oliver seemed a little more, yeah, that's not happening again than her IMO.

 

though Laurel and very short memory span forgot that and she tried to kiss Oliver again in 2x05 but by then Sara was back in picture and Oliver was not really in the mood.

 

 

And my impressions of Laurel pouting and going poor me only increased when she tried kissing Oliver.  I think she was just looking for a hook up cause he was there but still...eww.  More than Oliver and Sara getting back together being the final nail in an already buried coffin, I felt Laurel's whole self absorbed attitude was the end. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

Come on .... the minute the camera panned onto Tommy's anguish filled face, I knew it that Laurel and Oliver were done - even though they were literally at it like rabbits at that time. Everyone liked Tommy, he was the nice guy, smart and funny and obviously in love with a girl who did not love him back. He had a horrible dad, a dead mother and a friend who screwed him over and lied to him, how can anyone amongst the audience would not root for him?

Then 2x01 happened and they said that they cannot be together because of Tommy though Laurel and very short memory span forgot that and she tried to kiss Oliver again in 2x05 but by then Sara was back in picture and Oliver was not really in the mood. 2x14 was the final nail in the coffin.

 

In my mind they were over when he slept with her sister lol. Never over it. But yeah, the love scene was so wrong but it was confusing when the EP's said that O/L were the epic love story so they were saying one thing but showing us something else. It was just weird and wrong, all of it.

 

Also, I get sad thinking about Tommy because I think he had so much potential. Tommy and Thea bonding! Felicity and Tommy being flirty friends! :(

[wingster55]

Tommy :(

The more I think of it..Oliver needs a friend that isn't involved with his night activities..Laurel could work as that but I think she'll be in that part of his life.

Someone to balance his life out. Nobody can do that now.  

[BkWurm1]

Maybe he and Ray Palmer could eventually become buds.

[wingster55]

Ray..that would be something..but considering he's the Atom (or will be) ...no break from that

[Orion]

The other day when I was searching for the Lois and Clark quote for a post I was doing I accidentally stumbled on this Huffington post article and I'm finally getting around to posting about it.

 

This was really interesting to me. I wasn't follow Arrow stuff online until Season 2 so I never read up on it. (I stopped watching the show after Episode 2 because of Laurel but ended up catching the first Vertigo episode in Season 1) 

 

Guggenheim almost makes it clear in this article that they knew they were dropping Laurel/Oliver before 1X21 aired.

 

Still, the EP added, "the final four episodes really are about this love triangle of Oliver, Laurel and Tommy. That’s the love triangle that we began the series with so we felt it appropriate to finish the season with a focus on it. That love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20. That kicks us off for the remaining three episodes of the season after that. The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity. But I love the fact that people are shipping them. It really is exciting. There’s nothing but love for Felicity among all the people involved in the show. So, stay tuned. But in the meantime, I gained a lot of satisfaction by teasing people."

 

 

"I think there’s a lot of really great moments between Oliver and Felicity in the final four episodes of the season. That’s really what people will respond to. There’s a scene that they share in Episode 22 where just the chemistry is just so palpable. I was actually just on set telling Stephen that you really feel there’s a lot of chemistry and heat between the two of them. So, the shippers are only going to get louder post-Episode 22."

 

The acknowledgment of the chemistry from Guggenheim especially floored me.

 

The whole article is interesting just to see what they were teasing and how they were framing the upcoming episodes back in Season 1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/arrow-olicity-felicity-oliver-emily-bett-rickards_n_3144718.html

 

I never believed that the EPs realized that the Laurel/Oliver pairing wasn't working that early on in the show and that they viewed the hook up at the end of 1X22 as an ending point for them. That might explain why someone thought Radioactive was a good song to play when a couple got together.

 

My apologies if others have seen this article, it was new to me.