Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[quarks]

Well, the "I'm in love with person A, but I can't be with A for whatever reason, so instead, I shall go to B even though I don't love B and it will never work out with B, either in the hopes that being with B will hide just how much I care for/am hurt by A or in the hopes that B will distract me from/let me forget A" is a very common romance trope. I think it's the one playing out here.

I think that the idea is that Oliver started to fall for Felicity in season one, without realizing it. The elements were all there - the mutual trust, the acknowledgement that Felicity is pretty hot, the growing friendship. Episode 10 of season two was, I think, Oliver's recognition that he was in love with her - but couldn't have her. Thus his decision to turn to Sara, and why that relationship didn't play out at all romantically, and why he demurred when Sara asked him if the apartment idea was his attempt to take their relationship to the next step of living together.

But I also don't think that any of this was spelled out that clearly on screen. (Well, look, we're disagreeing about it, so, obviously not all that clear.)

[Password]

But I also don't think that any of this was spelled out that clearly on screen.

I agree. The bare bones were all there, but I feel like Sara isn't the one Oliver should have turned to. It didn't just remove Felicity from the trope, but it included Laurel and made Oliver look like a douche and Sara like a terrible sister.

If he turned to, for example Isabel, it would be entirely about Isabel, Oliver and Felicity. There'd be no doubt as to what he's doing, and even though he'd look like a douche, he wouldn't look like a regressed douche because he said implicitly that there were no strings attached.

Don't get me wrong I hated him hooking up with Isabel because I thought it was a big bone head decision. Her betrayal as Ravager would have been even more of an impact because he would feel like such a donut for not listening to Felicity.

The EPs and and indeed SA probably thought it was very clear that Oliver had feelings for Felicity, so when everyone went "what Felicity didn't know? Or she did know?" It must have been puzzling. We don't want Felicity to be made to look a fool, so the execution was poor.

[Carrie Ann]

Post-finale, Stephen Amell kept referring to the speech Oliver gave Felicity in S2E06 when people asked about the "ruse." So my feeling is that Oliver had been thinking about Felicity romantically for awhile, since S1 and his five months on the island. I've said here before that I think he wouldn't let himself look at it too closely, and I think that's even more true after Berlanti or Guggenheim's comments about how he came really close to actually saying something about how he felt in E06.

 

But in light of everything that has come out at SDCC, I think it's safe to say that Oliver was fighting a losing battle.

I think his feelings for her continued to grow, whether he allowed himself to really acknowledge that or not, and at some point in the 3-part finale, he realized that he loved her. If I had to guess when he really let himself feel it and accept it, it was her "you're not alone and I believe in you" speech. Those feelings are what allowed him to come up with the plan to trick Slade, and I think he really wanted to say the words, in case anything did happen to either of them.

 

Anyway, I'm bummed that we won't see five months of lovesick puppy Oliver, because that sounds like about the cutest thing ever.

But I don't think their declarations to each other will feel untrue or unearned, for me.

[Sunshine]

I don't know when the actual decision was made to go full on Olicity which might explain why things weren't spelled out clearly.  If O/S or Arrow/Canary had been better received the finale could have still happened but it would have been an actual fake-out with Felicity being in on it from the beginning.  That said, there is a  Roy/Oliver scene (don't remember the exact episode) where Oliver tells Roy that in order to keep Thea safe Roy must stay away from Thea which leads to their break-up.  Oliver says I know you will do this because you love her.  I remember wondering if that is why the potential Oliver/Felicity relationship came to a screeching halt at the end of 2.10.  Diggle's words made Oliver realize he had more than platonic feelings and figured he needed to keep his distance.   

[BkWurm1]

Seriously and Remington Steele succeeded in portraying a romance/mystery show for it's five year duration, which was a pretty good run in the 80's, then it mostly ended because Brosnan desperately wanted to be the big screen Bond rather than a small screen facsimile (both it and Moonlighting were created by Glenn Gordon Caron).

 

Just to be picky cause you know, the grudge, Glenn Gordon Caron was only a producer and a writer for some of the early episodes on Remington Steele.  Michael Gleason and Robert Butler were the creators.  I mentioned my grudge against Moonlighting, right?  ;) Can't let Caron get any more credit than he's allowed. 

 

 

I just realized that's why I love Olicity, that they're "partnership" and romantic vibe is so similar a smart investigative woman, paired with a pretty pretty man playing the role of hero. Now I can't say Felicity Smoak is Laura  Holt, sigh few female characters are as kickass as Laura Holt, but she's as close as CW genre show can come to her, while Ollie is a lot more hardcore then Remington, he often seems as shallow and boneheaded.

 

For anyone that doesn't know the premise of Remington Steele. Laura Holt was a brilliant, but overlooked,  female private eye that created a fictional boss as a figurehead for her agency to bring in the clients but a con-man ( initially out to steal the jewels she's hired to protect) figures out her ruse and steps into the part of the agency's boss, Remington Steele.  He's very good at it and they strike up a deal for him to keep up appearances. 

 

Naturally one of the big issues in the show is trust.  How can she trust what she's feeling when she doesn't know his history or even his real name?  How can he trust her with his secrets when she's afraid to show what she's feeling?  She wants promises that he'll stay, but he doesn't want to make promises he doesn't know he can keep.  (Honestly, if you can overlook some dated fashion, this show really holds up)  

 

I think on Arrow the issues of secrets and trust and identity are also being explored.  In both shows there comes fairly quickly a deep trust on the professional level.  They respect each other's abilities and trust that each are both putting the case or mission first.  But in both shows, extending trust on the personal side is hard.

 

One of the things I loved about Remington Steele is despite the two leads dancing around each other for most of the 5 (ok 4 seasons and 3 tv movies) they were usually together on the case and off and though they clashed about crossing lines, the attraction was never denied.  Plenty of kisses and emotional moments even if they really change anything.   

 

I would love for Arrow to let the characters acknowledge their feelings and if there is good reason why they shouldn't be together (and you know there will be some kind of block this early on) then I would also love for them to not be so great at keeping the personal and professional apart.  I want them to slip up and give us some moony eyes and stolen kisses.  I doubt we'll get the stolen kisses cause now a days shows are mostly an all or nothing kind of fare but I can still hope, right? 

 

Maybe the allure of the salmon ladder is too much, a little making out happens and then they jump apart as the door opens up top and they swear it can't happen again but oops, it does. 

 

Yeah, it's not really that kind of show.  Remington Steele was a screwball comedy / mystery show.  Really, perhaps the first Dramedy but Arrow also mixes genres.  It's Action but it's also Drama and I think it's time to stop denying it is also Romance.  I suppose the Olicity moments are the equivalent today of the stolen kisses of years ago.  I don't want to give up one but I'd really like the other too.  ;D 

 

I totally get why Oliver/Felicity situation presents more challenges to carrying on a romantic relationship, but as important as it was to show Oliver evolving from mercenary/murderous Vigilante to thoughtful/righteous hero,I also like that he's evolving from a callous clueless player to a man who is (hopefully) essentially True Blue to one woman: Felicity.

 

It is the growth of the characters that IMO makes all shows worth watching.  In RS they started as almost polar opposites and gradually came together more and more in their thinking and practices.  In Arrow, Oliver and Felicity share the common goal of helping the city but they clashed early on with the killing.  They've both moved on that subject - Oliver to no killing and Felicity to accepting the body count as needed sometimes. 

 

I'm curious how they will change or what kind of compromises they will need to make to grow closer.  Is Oliver's fear of Felicity getting hurt, will that be what keeps them apart?  Will Felicity have to step up her self defense abilities to ease his mind?  Or is it a question of accepting his past? Or even maybe Oliver believing that she could accept his past?  Do they both think the mission keeps them from having any kind of outside life?  If so, then why would them not having an outside life together be a problem?  Maybe Felicity isn't wiling to accept that or maybe Oliver isn't willing to accept that for Felicity? 

 

Hmm, lots to think about. 

[catrox14]

 

I don't know when the actual decision was made to go full on Olicity which might explain why things weren't spelled out clearly

 

I'm convinced it really solidified with State v Queen, either before so it was written to show how far Oliver is willing to go for Felicity vs others or immediately after.  IIRC, Oliver squeezing Felicity's hand was an ad-lib from Amell that he didn't know was going to be on camera. I remember that getting a lot of buzz about what does it mean!? So I think at that point the writers and EPs  could no longer ignore the chemistry between EBR and Amell. IMO everything else built after that in fits and starts. 

[statsgirl]

Remington Steele is a perfect example of "if you wait too long, the chemistry goes".  Not the chemistry between the two leads, but the chemistry of wanting them to get together.  If they had got together in s3, it would have been a perfect rom/detective show.  But by the time they did get together, all the shenanigans and other partners to keep them apart made it all meh.

 

 

I'm convinced it really solidified with State v Queen, either before so it was written to show how far Oliver is willing to go for Felicity vs others or immediately after.

It would have been interesting if it were planned but I think it was just serendipitous that both there and in  The Huntress Returns, Oliver lost it when Felicity was put in danger.

 

I think that the idea is that Oliver started to fall for Felicity in season one, without realizing it. The elements were all there - the mutual trust, the acknowledgement that Felicity is pretty hot, the growing friendship. Episode 10 of season two was, I think, Oliver's recognition that he was in love with her - but couldn't have her. Thus his decision to turn to Sara, and why that relationship didn't play out at all romantically, and why he demurred when Sara asked him if the apartment idea was his attempt to take their relationship to the next step of living together.
 

I don't know if it was at the 'he loves her' stage yet but he was jealous of the time she was spending with Barry and that suggests that he cared for her.  Or about her.  Post-island Oliver is someone who keeps a very tight guard on his feelings and I can see that he would be careful not to let himself love Felicity because it would be dangerous for her whereas Sara is someone who could take care of herself.  At least that's how he felt before he realized that Sara was possibly also developing feelings for him when she asked if he was suggesting they live together.

 

I don't think it's been asked, but could Sara have also been using Oliver as a distraction from her feelings for Nyssa? 

 

I've always thought he ignores his feelings for Felicity because reasons but the ILY would have been the wake up call to make him see her.

I think it was the realization that he could lose her in the Unthinkable plan.  But she was his only chance of taking down Slade, and that prompted the ILY in case either of them died and he never got another chance..  Hopefully we'll find out in the next episode.

Edited July 29, 2014 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

You know with all the spoilers and new casting info coming in, the one thing that got completely forgotten was finding out one way or another, not the I Love You , but whether Felicity had been in on the plan from the start or not. Oops. 

[tv echo]

After watching "Time of Death" again, here's my take on the sister relationship between Laurel and Sara:  I think they've always had an unspoken competitive thing going on since they were children, where their actions were partly reactions to what the other did, perhaps on a subconscious level.

 

So when young Sara got interested in Oliver and wanted to hook up with him at a party, young Laurel sabotaged that attempt.  Laurel's hanging onto Oliver as a boyfriend was partly due to her imagined fantasy future as Mrs. Oliver Queen and partly due to a desire to thwart her sister.  Sara's subsequent hooking up with Oliver and agreeing to go on The Gambit was partly due to her desire for Oliver and partly due to her wish to get back at Laurel.

 

In the present, when Laurel discovered that Sara was alive, rather than welcoming her back with a grateful, loving hug, she had a hissy fit, didn't care what happened to Sara, and threw a glass at her.  I think she resented Sara's return on some level.  When Sara begged Oliver to go with her to the Lance family dinner, I think she was getting back at Laurel (maybe not consciously) for the latter's less than warm welcome home.  On some level, she knew that her relationship with Oliver would come out and that it would hurt Laurel.  (Oliver, on the hand, was just being his usual oblivious self.)

 

The two sisters have a love-hate relationship.  While they love each other deep-down, they also try to outdo and hurt each other.

Edited July 30, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

I agree with your post entirely. Except it rather seems a hate hate relationship. Certainly one that's very broken and has been for a long time. They keep hurting each other back and I honestly hope the show goes somewhere with it. They don't have a healthy sisterly relationship.

[Orion]

You know with all the spoilers and new casting info coming in, the one thing that got completely forgotten was finding out one way or another, not the I Love You , but whether Felicity had been in on the plan from the start or not. Oops. 

 

EBR said in a couple interviews during Upfronts that Felicity didn't know why they were at the mansion, so I'm assuming if she was in the on the plan he would have told her about the cameras.  I could only find one of the interviews but here it is.

 

 

“I was glad, actually, because for one, it’s truthful, because it’s so shocking” to hear Oliver go “there” in the heat of a crisis. “After all this time — 46 episodes, two years — she’s not expecting it,” the actress explains. “I don’t think anyone was. Like, ‘Why are we in the middle of this house when the apocalypse is happening outside? We should be getting machetes! Where’s my ninja sword?’ I think [Felicity's reaction] was a very honest [unspoken] response like, ‘Oh, no, wait… I love you too, but….”

 

 

http://tvline.com/2014/05/15/arrow-season-2-finale-emily-bett-rickards-felicity-oliver-i-love-you/

[BkWurm1]

Thanks!  I've always swung toward she didn't know but wasn't sure if that had been the intent of the producers or not. 

[statsgirl]

The two sisters have a love-hate relationship.  While they love each other deep-down, they also try to outdo and hurt each other.

By the time we see them in the flashbacks, I can see the competitiveness but I also see Sara wanting to warn Laurel that the future she's planning on with Oliver is more a figment of her imagination and Laurel snapping back "Why can't you be happy for me?"  It's after that that Sara decided to go on the boat with Oliver.

 

I think Sara truly loved Laurel and looked up to her big sister.  She was competitive but I think that was in reaction to Laurel's behaviour..  Laurel was only 2 years old when Sara was born and replaced  her as the baby of the family, and the Laurel we've seen doesn't like to take second place to anyone.  I think Laurel does love Sara as much as she can but Laurel's first priority is always herself and if she's got what she wants, that's when there's room for Sara and Dinah and Quentin..

[Sakura12]

From what I've seen the sister competition was all in Laurel's head. To me, pre-Gambit Sara seemed like an easy going person that just liked do whatever she wanted to do without thinking about the consequences (that's where her and Oliver were very similar). We did see that Sara was having second thoughts about going but she did go with Oliver because Laurel was being a bitch so it was more of a reaction to that then a competition.

 

Then when she hooked up with Oliver in Heir to the Demon, yes, she was upset that Laurel threw her out but she also had no where else to go. She finally was able to come home only to find it unwelcoming, so she went to the only person that was in a sense home to her. After all they've been through in the past 6 years and what happened to them that day, Oliver was her safe place to land. Their hook up stupid and selfish but I don't think it had anything to do with Laurel. They were both looking for comfort. They were both home, they were both alive that's all they were thinking about. However they are on different paths and they are both not what the other needs to get better. They were using each other because it was comfortable and easy.

[Starfish35]

I'm not even sure that Sara knew that she'd find Oliver in the Arrowcave when she went there. It was just probably the only place she knew to go. It just so happened that Oliver was there working out his frustrations about his fight with his mother instead of being home.

ETA: there may be some dialogue in the scene that contradicts this theory though. It's been too long since I watched it.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

That could be, maybe Sara went to the Arrow cave do to the exact same thing Oliver was doing, hit something. 

[statsgirl]

Yep, that's what happens when you go around all sweaty and half-naked and emotions on high.

[foreverevolving]

 

Remington Steele is a perfect example of "if you wait too long, the chemistry goes".  Not the chemistry between the two leads, but the chemistry of wanting them to get together.  If they had got together in s3, it would have been a perfect rom/detective show.  But by the time they did get together, all the shenanigans and other partners to keep them apart made it all meh.

Please 4 years is nothing. on The West Wing we had to wait the entire show run until Josh and Donna finally did it, let alone confessed their feelings. that was bad, and yet i know very few people who gave up on them- maybe the fact that it wasn't the center of the show helped.

for me personally the best example of a well written romance in all its stages is Doug and Carol on ER, they were just so beautifully written!

BTW like Olicity they were also an accidental on screen, actors, chemistry; sadly, for reasons beyond my understanding, they no longer receive the honor they deserve as one of the greatest on screen couple. Carol was, similar to Felicity, supposed to be a one time character (actually she was supposed to die) but was made a cast member before the show began to air because she was extremely well received by the executives and during early audience screenings, like Felicity she became a fan favorite with most of the viewers. (same for Donna too)

Edited July 31, 2014 by foreverevolving

[BkWurm1]

With Remington Steele it was actually Pierce Brosnan that got the lucky break. Originally the pitch for the show was female detective with fake boss but there wasn't going to be a boss ever. That got revamped and then they had to fight to cast the unknown Brosnan. Only a change in studio big wigs got it on the air. I had no problem waiting until the fourth season for the characters to get together since they spent most of four showing how close they were emotionally. I really enjoyed the growth. Of course show politics got in the way (cancelled with a 28% share of a the ratings! Can you imagine?) and the ending was not super fun with the contrived last minute love interest for her. Timing does matter and at the end of a series you don't manufacture obviously weak obstacles. They just eat up,time and make everyone unhappy.

Right now I feel like Arrow is on a good timeline for handling the emotional side of the show. Obstacles now feel justified since I want the characters to grow more before they get together.

[Guest]

Hi! First time poster here! So I've just been quietly reading everyone's thoughts on Oliver and Felicity's upcoming date and declaration of feelings and was quite surprised that some feel like their 'I love you' isn't earned. I disagree.

 

One of the things I've loved about the O/F relationship is how it's progressed organically and we've been allowed to see them evolve moment to moment from their very first meeting. That was already a plus against O/L where we were just told that they used to date and were in love or whatever. Besides their lack of chemistry and toxic backstory (cheating and sister swapping = super gross) I feel this where O/L really failed to get more of a following because as viewers we weren't shown their relationship. We were just told about it. That NEVER works on TV. 

 

But with Olicity, we've seen them meet and earn each other's trust. We've seen their friendship go from strength to strength. In many ways, Felicity has been the backbone to Oliver's journey to becoming a hero. She was the one who said he could do real good in the city. She was the one who told him he could find another way. She was even willing to sacrifice herself just so Oliver didn't have to kill on her behalf. Aside from Digg, Felicity was the one who believed in him and gave him support in times of need. For a long time, Felicity was the only woman Oliver could truly be himself around. 

 

Now when I look back on the collective of these moments, I see a love story. No, there was no explicit moment where they realized they had feelings and I don't think you can really pinpoint the exact moment where those feelings started to deepen, but that's what has been so amazing to watch. I don't need it spelled out for me, like O/L's 'love' was so many times. The best thing about Olicity is that we never needed telling. It was just always there.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Guest

[wonderwall]

@Angel12d, while I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver tell Felicity he cares about her, I think it would be quite a jump from him saying they're friends to "I love you". I'm trying to look at it from a broader perspective because not everyone thinks that their relationship has grown organically. Some believe that they're more forced. So in order to alleviate this, it'd be better if the EPs tread lightly and make Oliver/Felicity fall slowly in love so people can actually see that there's something there and that it's not just puppy love or Oliver just doing it because Laurel is dating someone else or whatever crazy reasons people come up with. I'm tired of the fan-pandering excuse and I fear that if Oliver tells FElicity right off the bat that he loves her, I'm pretty sure the 'fan pandering' argument will be all I see all over the internet. 

 

So slow and steady wins the race, I suppose :)

[Password]

It's weird I thought the ILY was waaaay out of nowhere, but I think that's how it was meant to seem. We've been speculating whether or not he has feelings, and that was the way the show decided to show Oliver has more than platonic feelings for her. For whatever reason he didn't act on them and pursued Sara, and I imagine this season a lot of that will be addressed because it seemed like a dick move.

I was also sick of hearing the phrase fan pandering but I've come to embrace it. The EPs know when it comes to Olicity, it just works. There's room for development there, and the fact that the ILY was such a major turning point and talking point means the writers and EPs have decided it's worth it to the storyline.

So whilst I'm also concerned it may feel unearned, I'm willing to give the writers a chance (shock horror because I don't trust them) because it seems like they're taking it more seriously than mwah mwah I love you.

[wonderwall]

A lack of communication is one of the main reasons why things turn to shit on Arrow. So the fact that Oliver/Felicity have [a] frank discussion about their relationship and how they feel for one another without any nonsense, I feel as though this is a positive step for their relationship. This is the first time Oliver has been completely honest with a woman not just about how he feels but everything he went through and is going through right now. After the first episode, Oliver will be a completely open book to Felicity (or so I hope) and vice versa. This is a testament to how much he trusts her and cares for her. 

 

So yeah,  this is how I know the EPs are taking them seriously and that they are going to take care of their growing relationship. One of the reasons why people are against this pairing is because they're so sure that this will all end terribly because A)Comics B)Oliver is a dick and will break her heart , so if the EPs remove that sense of doubt by slowly developing Oliver/Felicity's relationship as well as Oliver (and make him good enough for Felicity, not having him sleep around, etc) then I feel more people would support them. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[doesntworkonwood]

They were talking over on tumblr about how usually 'I love you' is used as a pay off in a romantic storyline, whereas the Arrow writers have subverted the trope to use it as a set up for the romantic relationship.

 

Most love stories will have one half of a couple be aware of their feelings, or both aware of their feelings but unaware that it is reciprocated. It's a really strange situation to have them both aware of how they feel, and how the other feels without them doing anything about it. This, if treaded carefully, could create a very unique situation where we're both watching them fall in love, whilst knowing and understanding that there are very deep feelings already there. And, that's what I hope for Oliver and Felicity.

 

As a side note, that sort of relationship is slightly reminiscent of Ten/Rose in Doctor Who. They were practically a couple, without being a couple, and that's what made the pay off at the end of Tennants run one of my favourite scenes in the history of TV ever. 

[MsSchadenfreude]

To some fans, no matter what, they won't ever support a romantic relationship between Oliver and Felicity (that's cool not everyone likes the same things) even if the show waits years for O/F to declare their feelings.  I think the show would be better off to write the O/F story they want to tell and not try to stall that story because some people may not like it.  That kind of treading water in story telling rarely works because the people who dislike the couple will most likely still dislike them and the people who love them wind up frustrated and annoyed.  Sometimes, it is better to pick a direction and worry less about convincing people they may just not want to be convinced.  I think SA and EBR can handle this new direction for their characters and make it believable.  I'm looking forward to see how it plays out onscreen.

[wonderwall]

I'm honestly just tired of all the ship wars and Olicity shipper bashing which is why I'd rather have the EPs take a route that satisfies most viewers. It's not completely impossible to change some people's minds considering they did that with the finale. I saw an overwhelming amount of people (especially fanboys) saying "I didn't know I shipped them until I was yelling at the screen for them to kiss" or something like that. So yeah, it's possible. But moreso I believe that IMDB, Reddit, and Youtube have ruined me. I usually don't care what the others think and only concern myself about what I like, but with the amount of Olicity shipper bashing I've seen this past few weeks, I can't help but feel protective of them and just plain angry at anyone who just throws hate around for no reason... And I don't even consider myself a shipper? Just a supporter. Does that make sense? 

[doesntworkonwood]

@wonderwall The shipper bashing really annoys me too.

 

It frustrates me because people will like different parts of a show, and they're allowed to like different parts of a show and only be invested in certain parts. Some people like the action, some people like specific characters, some people will like specific story lines and some people will be more invested in the romance of the show. There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't make you any less of a fan if you only watch for a specific reason.

 

I think, rather than complaining about stuff like Olicity taking over the show, or Olicity fangirls (or fanboys) taking over every conversation, people should instead make conversation about what they do like (or really care about.) Rather than complaining about how people aren't talking about certain characters, and are instead focusing on Olicity, people should make their own conversations.

 

Olicity fans are just passionate about Olicity, so that's what they'll talk about. That doesn't mean that the only thing other fans have to talk about is Olicity, they can talk about whatever they want and whatever they're passionate about. Stop complaining about people caring and having conversations that you don't care about, and instead be passionate about the things that you do care about, and talk about them.

[wingster55]

Shippers don't bother me..and most of the time ships don't either. 

It's when the entertainment media only (or mostly) focuses on ships when reporting on a show that I get really annoyed. 

[Velocity23]

The media will focus on what gits them more hits and somehow Olicity is one of these topics. I know Matt Mitovich once revealed that they get most question for spoilers for either Felicity and Olicity. So i guess they go with feedback from fans. 

I already discussed it with wonderwall what really gets to me is when you see obvious L/O fans trying to pin the racism card on the Olicity fans. They racist because they don't ship Diggle and Felicity. 

http://stilettoroyalty.tumblr.com/post/93259554624/diggle-and-felicity-delicity-as-it-were-is

Edited July 31, 2014 by Velocity23

[Password]

I already discussed it with wonderwall what really gets to me is when you see obvious L/O fans trying to pin the racism card on the Olicity fans. They racist because they don't ship Diggle and Felicity. 

I shouldn't laugh, but.

[wingster55]

Every fandom has their...more intense fans. 

[Velocity23]

That is true. I guess its the combination of things i see the L/O fandom say and do in the previous days that its really starting to irritate me. Especially since they are going after Stephen, directly tagging him and saying he should be fired, that he is a sell-out. 

[SilverLake0315]

@Angel12d, while I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver tell Felicity he cares about her, I think it would be quite a jump from him saying they're friends to "I love you". I'm trying to look at it from a broader perspective because not everyone thinks that their relationship has grown organically. Some believe that they're more forced. So in order to alleviate this, it'd be better if the EPs tread lightly and make Oliver/Felicity fall slowly in love so people can actually see that there's something there and that it's not just puppy love or Oliver just doing it because Laurel is dating someone else or whatever crazy reasons people come up with. I'm tired of the fan-pandering excuse and I fear that if Oliver tells FElicity right off the bat that he loves her, I'm pretty sure the 'fan pandering' argument will be all I see all over the internet. 

 

So slow and steady wins the race, I suppose :)

 

Honestly, there's a group of people who will call "fan pandering" no matter HOW the writers handle the relationship.  If Guggenheim specifically saying "it's not fan service" doesn't convince them, nothing will.  Most of the ones saying it don't seem to have a clear understanding of what it means anyway.  Their definition seems to be "doing something I don't like".  I've always believe that if anything is pandering, it's just about any scene with Laurel, since she's almost always shoved into a situation unnaturally. 

 

@wonderwall The shipper bashing really annoys me too.

 

It frustrates me because people will like different parts of a show, and they're allowed to like different parts of a show and only be invested in certain parts. Some people like the action, some people like specific characters, some people will like specific story lines and some people will be more invested in the romance of the show. There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't make you any less of a fan if you only watch for a specific reason.

 

I think, rather than complaining about stuff like Olicity taking over the show, or Olicity fangirls (or fanboys) taking over every conversation, people should instead make conversation about what they do like (or really care about.) Rather than complaining about how people aren't talking about certain characters, and are instead focusing on Olicity, people should make their own conversations.

 

Olicity fans are just passionate about Olicity, so that's what they'll talk about. That doesn't mean that the only thing other fans have to talk about is Olicity, they can talk about whatever they want and whatever they're passionate about. Stop complaining about people caring and having conversations that you don't care about, and instead be passionate about the things that you do care about, and talk about them.

 

"Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate." 

 

I've had more than one person tell me on SA's Facebook page that I'm not a "true fan" because I've never read a comic book in my life...or that they wish the show would only focus on the action.  My standard reply is "note the network this airs on; good luck with that hope".

[wingster55]

I'm certain if there ever came a point that he says Oliver/Felicity is done or the girl in Oliver's life is Laurel, some Oliver/Felicity shippers would be just as volatile. 

[Velocity23]

I just cant believe someone truly believes WB would ever fire Stephen. And that because of the statements he made at a con, most probably with WBs blessing. 

[quarks]

I guess from my perspective, by the time the finale aired, Oliver and Felicity had known each other for a year and a half - plenty of time in real life to meet, date, move in together, agree to get married, set up a wedding date.  Granted they didn't do most (any) of that stuff, but for the seven months prior to the finale, they were shown to have a pretty strong friendship - they worked together during the day when Oliver bothered to show up to the office, and worked together at night fighting crime, sharing some emotionally tense moments. So it's not really surprising that they would develop a strong bond. I've seen coworkers start to date after considerably less.  And certainly action/superhero movies generally get the couple together after a lot less.  (Hello, Thor movies!)

 

That said, Oliver has huge, but huge, but huge issues, and Felicity has her own abandonment issues, so although I think they definitely could have really fallen for each other, I don't see them (well, mostly Oliver) as ready for a relationship yet, but that's me.

[dtissagirl]

They were talking over on tumblr about how usually 'I love you' is used as a pay off in a romantic storyline, whereas the Arrow writers have subverted the trope to use it as a set up for the romantic relationship.

 

This makes a lot of sense. Felicity has expressed her own denial of her feelings when she told Barry she doesn't have feelings for Oliver. Barry didn't believe her, nobody watching believed her. Plus, if she's lying to herself, she has at least one very strong reason: she believes Oliver will never reciprocate. There are a whole bunch more reasons, but that one is good enough for her to try and dampen/deny her own feelings.

 

Oliver compartmentalizes everything, so he may as well have had strong feelings for Felicity for a long time, but he labeled her "DO NOT TOUCH" and kept everything he felt hidden in that particular box until he had to do ~the unthinkable~. And saying "I love you" to her was also part of doing the unthinkable. Because he totally thought he would never ever go there until that moment.

 

If we contrast Oliver hiding his feelings for Felicity in S2 to his hiding his feelings for Laurel in S1, it went pretty much the same way. He put Laurel in a "do not touch" box in S1 because of all the baggage, and because she was with Tommy. And then the moment he realized he could have a life, he took her out of the box and went to her. So it's been established that the dude does that.

 

The difference is that about 17 people were interested in watching Oliver/Laurel, whereas several truckloads of folks love Oliver/Felicity, including the folks that actually matter: studio and network execs.

[Password]

17. ROTFL!

[wonderwall]

@wingster55, fact of the matter is that I've barely ever see any Lauriver shipper bashers whereas I've been seeing (on every single thread) a fair shair of Olicity shipper bashers. That goes to show that the Olicity shippers aren't as bad as they seem (full disclosure: I understand that not all shipper bashers are Lauriver shippers) so I wouldn't be too sure of how they would react if the roles were reversed. Would Oliciters be upset? Yes. And rightfully so because that would mean they've been played with over and over again (something that Lauriver shippers didn't really have to deal with), will some react badly towards SA and the EPs? yes. Because there are always a few select crazies in every fandom. So it's difficult to say what would happen when there's no precedence. 

[wingster55]

Considering I saw a fair deal of hate towards Stephen and Caity after Sara and Oliver got together again...I can believe it.

Edited July 31, 2014 by wingster55

[wonderwall]

Or maybe the Oliciters (discounting the crazies) are just nicer than people presume? :) Just because not all of them are loud doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of them! 

Edited July 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

Maybe. They haven't really been let down the way Laurel and Oliver fans have been. 

There are lots but the number is a bit exaggerated. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Laurel and Oliver fans have been let down since 1x01, I don't think that relationship ever would have worked no matter who had been cast as Laurel and Oliver. Sister-swapping isn't exactly the stuff of epic romance...

 

It's nearly impossible to tell how many people like/dislike characters/ships, however, the CW Arrow and SA's Facebook pages nearly always have pro-Olicity/pro-Felicity comments that receive the most likes. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by drspaceman10

[HighHopes]

Considering I saw a fair deal of hate towards Stephen and Caity after Sara and Oliver got together again...I can believe it.

 

But that could also have been coming from the L/O fans as well. Putting that only on the O/F fans is unfair. 

[MsSchadenfreude]

Whatever direction the show takes in any of the romantic relationships, there will be fans who hate it and take it too far.  It's part of the whole shipping phenomenon and certainly not unique to Arrow or Olicity. And if the situation was reversed, some Olicity fans would react badly too.  To be fair, some Olicity fans are acting badly now and they have supposedly gotten what they want.  Shipping is not going away and neither are any of the negative aspects of shipping that occur with every fanbase in every fandom.   Ultimately, Arrow showrunners are going to do what they want to do. 

[JJ928]

Sorry to butt-in, but the flak Caity & Stephen got was not only from Oliciters. In fact, several L/O fans started calling Sara, and continue to, Slutty Canary. Also, many were attacking her, saying that she should be ashamed of herself for what she was doing to KC. Caity got way more flak than Stephen, and from what I recall neither fandom can really claim any innocence.

Yet, I don't believe all L/O fans are nasty. Unfortunately the loud L/O fans on twitter tend to overwhelm the normal ones. So generalizing either faction is wrong, every fandom has bad apples, the bigger the fandom the more they stick out. In this case, I'd say the crazy L/O & O/F fans are pretty equal in numbers.  I've seen some nastiness come from O/F fans that really embarrasses me, but this is not exclusive to just us. 

[wingster55]

But that could also have been coming from the L/O fans as well.

 

But it was specifically Olicity/Felicity fans. (Some I may follow on twitter)

[dtissagirl]

This is gonna get long, and rant-y, and also possibly go into boring business/marketing decisions. SORRY. :)

 

There are always gonna be angry fans, and frankly, what matters is if there's risk in it. It's not so much what kind of content fandom will create but how quantifiable it is. Loud fan groups will always exist, both huge and tiny. And there's specially more fandom outrage when a romance storyline is changed so drastically as it was on Arrow. But if we look at the business behind it all, it makes a lot of sense. The massive shift in marketing that happened this hiatus makes me think they calculated the risk of angering Laurel/Oliver fans, and deemed that risk small enough to have spent the last two months in social media pimping Felicity and Felicity/Oliver, and to send Amell out to the SDCC press room to sell Oliver/Felicity with such conviction.

 

Also -- all that talk about how the premiere of each season works as microcosm of the entire season makes me think that they made the decision to give up on Laurel/Oliver and try out Felicity/Oliver right after S1. The plan for season one was obviously Laurel/Oliver tru luv 4eva, but it didn't work. Viewers didn't connect with either Laurel or the romance storyline. OTOH, audiences latched on to Felicity and Felicity/Oliver to a greater degree than anyone could ever have predicted.

 

This kind of decision doesn't happen in a vaccuum -- it's a creative choice, sure, but it's also a business decision. Studio/network have to approve this kind of shift in storyline, and they have to weight in the pros and the cons -- after all, they had spent money marketing the first idea that didn't work. They do it by testing it out on focus groups, and doing social media analysis, and looking at the data that comes from digital viewing platforms, and reading reviews, and looking at the ratings. At some point after S1 they decided it was OK to nix Laurel/Oliver and go with Felicity/Oliver because it made good business sense. Looking back, it's obvious in the season 2 official poster, with Laurel placed far back in the background, and Felicity front and center right by Oliver.

 

And so, 201's entire motif for F/O is "there has to be another way". Not only Oliver decides to be a vigilante without killing, but he also figures out a way to keep control of QC. And then he tells Felicity "it was just like a good friend once told me: I had to find another way" so it's right there on the text that she influenced his decisions. And in the finale there's a bigger payoff off, because there are deeper feelings involved in their decisions. When Felicity tells Oliver he had to outsmart Slade, she's again telling him they have to find another way. And he does.

 

By contrast, Oliver and Laurel decide they can't be together, but want to keep being friends in 201. Then he tells her "I've loved you half my life, but I'm done running after you" in 214, and by in the latter part of the season they take steps to rebuild their friendship and Laurel discovers the secret, but there are no romantic beats related to any of it.

 

Now, during S2 they obviously kept looking at audience response, and came to the conclusion that Oliver/Felicity works. Of course it doesn't work for every fan ever, but then again it doesn't have to. It has to appeal to the larger part of the fanbase, and since they're now promoting a new season again, it has to appeal to potential new viewers.

 

Tl;dr, the creative decision to go with Oliver/Felicity matched perfectly with their business plan for the show. The WB and the CW have decided that Oliver/Felicity sell Arrow better than anything else they have on the show. And that the risk of angering Laurel/Oliver fans was minimal.

Edited July 31, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

Unless you count all of the people and their... allegiances (???) it's hard to tell. IMO it's not right to single out a group of people with zero basis. 

[Password]

They shot themselves in the knees with the terrible Oliver/Laurel back story. It's not a surprise they're going a different direction. Storywise and business wise.

Every fandom has their rotten apples. There's no contesting it. I'm not surprised people hated the Sara/Oliver hookup but I am that they threatened the actors. Picking on one or the other fandom gets you nowhere because every fandom has their opinions about where the show should go.

But at the end of the day, if the Arrow people decide to go with Oliver and Felicity as OTP, it's not because one fandom decided it was better. They had no qualms with allowing Sara to get back together with Oliver, therefore they have no qualms changing direction with things to suit their story.