Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[lemotomato]

Who among us haven't given our ex-boyfriends cheek caresses while comforting them over their recent breakup with their fiancees, right? 

[LeighAn]

Sure at the time the scene may have played like pity, but after 4x18 and her little in love confession it comes across like she was playing the shoulder to cry on in order to get an in with an emotionally vunerable Oliver.

 

But you can blame first Katie for pushing that on the writers, and second the writers for listening to her.

[wonderwall]

38 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Who among us haven't given our ex-boyfriends cheek caresses while comforting them over their recent breakup with their fiancees, right? 

I don't make it a point to touch anyone's faces like that except my husband. I don't actually believe it's a common thing to do among friends (even extremely close friends). 

So I don't buy it when people say she's his friend! She's allowed to do that! Nah... You don't do that with friends, especially not friends you're in love with/ had romantic history with...

That was just not appropriate... KC... she's such a failure lol I actually feel sorry for Laurel Lance because she was played by someone who didn't respect her own character and is just so incredibly talentless.

Edited July 1, 2017 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

It would also have worked if she'd been out to get Oliver (or just out to get The Story on Oliver) but ultimately changed her mind because she decided that she liked him.

A number of us were afraid that that's what would happen, that Susan would sleep with Oliver and then decide she wasn't going to go after him any more aka Oliver's Magic Penis story. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as bad as it is, I prefer it this way.

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yup, that's how I see Susan's story line, too. Though, I also wonder if Arrow again ran out of time and decided to "close" Susan's story line, because they were gearing up for the finale, with plans to reopen it at a later time. It would, in a bad way, also explain why the story never went anywhere.

I like to delude myself that they heard the audience reaction,realized just how bad it was and wrapped it up faster.

[leopardprint]

It's not like Laurel paid off his security detail to tell her his location or forced her phone number on his stand in or set a private investigator on him or kept a secret file of his time in the mafia or used her professional standing to secure his time or plied him with alcohol when he was visibly upset...

That's how one pursues romantic interest in Oliver according to Arrow. Laurel was totes staying in the friend zone. 

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

A number of us were afraid that that's what would happen, that Susan would sleep with Oliver and then decide she wasn't going to go after him any more aka Oliver's Magic Penis story. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as bad as it is, I prefer it this way.

In a way, that's kind of what did happen though because the investigation aspect was pretty much dropped after they slept together except to prove what an amazing person Susan was because she didn't use the information because you know "She wouldn't do that!" and to make Felicity and Thea look bad (ok) and then she got kidnapped, forgotten about, rescued and dumped. 

Dumbest red herring in the history of television. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

I like to delude myself that they heard the audience reaction,realized just how bad it was and wrapped it up faster.

Honestly this is my guess. 

 

But at the same time they also wrote both Ray and Samantha as shady AF but couldn't understand the audience calling foul when they expected to see them as perfect Angels. So it's just as likely they once again misread what they wrote on paper to how the audience would react on screen. Or weren't clear enough with the actors about how they are suppose to play the characters. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

It reads romantic because of her confession later..after that I thought back at the moments that seemed inappropriate to me but at the time excused saying she was trying to be a friend. To comfort a friend you touch his arm/shoulder/back..cupping the face is a different level of intimacy..imagine Dig doing it to Oliver or Felicity..it would be just weird. Or it's something a mom would do but that's a completely different kind of relationship..

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

It reads romantic because of her confession later..after that I thought back at the moments that seemed inappropriate to me but at the time excused saying she was trying to be a friend. To comfort a friend you touch his arm/shoulder/back..cupping the face is a different level of intimacy..imagine Dig doing it to Oliver or Felicity..it would be just weird. Or it's something a mom would do but that's a completely different kind of relationship..

Brothers or sisters might do that, but not former lovers who have a love /hate relationship.

Edited July 1, 2017 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

Now I really want to see Diggle cupping Oliver's face, lol.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Now I really want to see Diggle cupping Oliver's face, lol.  

I probably have a little more amenable view to close friends/family doing that during times of great emotional distress, but that view may be clouded by being a Supernatural fan wherein Dean/Sam and Dean/Cas have cupped one another's face before or after near death situation but those are not sexual/romantic relationships (not canon anyway!) 

Oliver did cradle Tommy's face IIRC before Tommy died, but Oliver sure wasn't dying in that scene with Laurel. There is just no way for me to see what Laurel did as anything but a romantic gesture so she could try and worm her way back into a romantic thing with Oliver.

[Midnight Lullaby]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Now I really want to see Diggle cupping Oliver's face, lol.  

------> 3535172 new Oliver/Dig fanfics, lol

[statsgirl]

10 hours ago, LeighAn said:

But at the same time they also wrote both Ray and Samantha as shady AF but couldn't understand the audience calling foul when they expected to see them as perfect Angels. So it's just as likely they once again misread what they wrote on paper to how the audience would react on screen. Or weren't clear enough with the actors about how they are suppose to play the characters. 

I don't think of Samantha as shady, just Stupid For Plot.  It never seemed like she wanted to deliberately hurt Oliver,  Ray is more problematic because while I (and @Mellowyellow) see him as impressed by Felicity's smarts and wanting her to be his employee so he could make use of her brains and going too far in his eagerness, I know others see him as stalkerish.

But unlike Susan, neither Ray nor Samantha ever wanted to bring Felicity and Oliver respectively down to further their own agendas.  But with Susan, she started by deliberately stabbing Thea in the back and actively working to bring Oliver down, including hiring a PI to dig up dirt on him, just so she could get a scoop.  

I don't know if we were supposed to think that she later fell for him and that's why didn't out him or maybe it was the writers thinking they are too clever, but Susan was deliberately set up to be shady, with bribing Oliver's staff to tell her when he was going off work (so she could get him drunk and get info?), and sequeways from her plying Oliver with Russian vodka to Bratva flashbacks.  

[leopardprint]

Idk would this be considered inappropriate? No, because they are not exes? 

 

Samantha was more a hypocrite and sanctimonious, she had no standing to demand concessions from Oliver. He didn't do anything to her, Moira did, and she went along with it so I have no idea where she gets off lecturing Oliver. If she was a stupid kid that made a mistake and grew up because of circumstances the same courtesy should have been extended to Oliver. Or it would have been way more believable if she insisted on getting to know Oliver again before allowing him to interact with the kid. But leaving your precious child alone with a man you think that little of makes no sense if your motive is the kid's safety. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[Hiveminder]

15 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Idk would this be considered inappropriate? No, because they are not exes? 

 

Samantha was more a hypocrite and sanctimonious, she had no standing to demand concessions from Oliver. He didn't do anything to her, Moira did, and she went along with it so I have no idea where she gets off lecturing Oliver. If she was a stupid kid that made a mistake and grew up because of circumstances the same courtesy should have been extended to Oliver. Or it would have been way more believable if she insisted on getting to know Oliver again before allowing him to interact with the kid. But leaving your precious child alone with a man you think that little of makes no sense if your motive is the kid's safety. 

To me, that is not inappropriate. Yes, because they're not exes, but also because Felicity is not kissing Dig's cheek after discussing how she totally gets him after his fiancé broke up with him because she too was cheated on by him, so she understands how much he loves and he can save this city.  (I didn't entirely understand what Laurel's point in that conversation was.) Also, their level of friendship allows for a kiss on the cheek if both of them are ok with cheek kisses. Felicity and Dig have always been solidly in friends/sibling territory. Felicity kissing Dig's cheek is the same as Thea kissing Oliver's cheek. (Provided it was after they got past those incesty chemistry issues from season one.). It would be weird if Laurel kissed Dig's cheek, or if Thea did because they don't have that kind of relationship, just like Laurel does not, and never did have, that kind of relationship with Oliver. 

 

I agree reed with everything you said about Samantha. 

[Primal Slayer]

38 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Idk would this be considered inappropriate? No, because they are not exes? 

It's totally sexual and she totally wants to get in his pants.

To me, Oliver/Laurel were finally in a good place in their relationship where they could be friends and confidants . She wasn't interested in trying to hook up with him, she fully supported his relationship with Felicity and was happy for them.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It's totally sexual and she totally wants to get in his pants.

To me, Oliver/Laurel were finally in a good place in their relationship where they could be friends and confidants . She wasn't interested in trying to hook up with him, she fully supported his relationship with Felicity and was happy for them.

And yet literally an episode later she was telling him she was in love with him in an I almost died confession and gave him once again her picture to hold onto, not knowing she was about to die while his recently ex finance and supposed friend was outside the door and basicly creating an intensely awkward work environment for team arrow had she lived. 

 

But sure Laurel is the purist best friend a girl and ex boyfriend could ask. With friends like that who needs enemies.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't even really acknowledge that retcon but even she told him to get back with Felicity, she was happy he found her, knew he didnt see herself as the love of his life during that same speech. So yeah she is the purist best friend a girl and ex boyfriend could ask for :) .

Edited July 1, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[LeighAn]

Also I forgot to add- did she tell him to make sure that she wasn't the last Black Canary so that she was with him forever before or after she knew she was dying? Not that it matters as it once again proves she was a kinda pathetic holding out for the popular boy to chose her/notice her girl. But if she said it before she knew she was dying again it would have created an increadibly awkward  team arrow environment because she basically told her supposed friends recent ex fiancee who she still loves:

 

"I'm in love with you, even though your not in love with me, you're the love of my life, have this picture of me that I have held onto for four years as proof how much I love you and also if I died create a new Black Canary so I'm with you forever even in death".

 

Cause that's a totally not creepy stalkerish normal platonic thing to say to your ex boyfriend who you know is still in love with and hurting over his ex fiancee who also happens to be your friend. Sure Jan.

[lemotomato]

It's been brought up before, but Laurel's confession of everlasting love for Oliver and the retcon flashbacks in 419 really reduced everything she during the course of the show to being the actions of a sad person who refused to leave her ex boyfriend's orbit. Her relationship with Tommy? He was just a placeholder and his friendship with Oliver allowed her to stay close to him. Her pleading Oliver to train her and then forcing herself onto his team was just to stay close to him. Her lack of love life could have been because she still pined for him and was waiting for her chance. It's really sad how the way Laurel was written out did an even greater injustice to the character than how she was treated when she was alive. Her last moments should have been with her father. Her only flashback episode should have been about her relationships with her family, or the team or the city. Instead, they were all about Oliver. And for what? To give L/O fans and KC one last bone to chew on? I don't get it.

Edited July 1, 2017 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

It's been brought up before, but Laurel's confession of everlasting love for Oliver and the retcon flashbacks in 419 really reduced everything she during the course of the show to being the actions of a sad person who refused to leave her ex boyfriend's orbit. Her relationship with Tommy? He was just a placeholder and his friendship with Oliver allowed her to stay close to him. Her pleading Oliver to train her and then forcing herself onto his team was just to stay close to him. Her lack of love life could have been because she still pined for him and was waiting for her chance. It's really sad how the way Laurel was written out did an even greater injustice to the character than how she was treated when she was alive. And for what? To give L/O fans and KC one last bone to chew on? I don't get it.

You can thank Katie Cassidy for this lol. 

[lemotomato]

7 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

You can thank Katie Cassidy for this lol. 

Given how, even after Oliver and Felicity drove off into the sunset in season 3, she was telling the audience at her panel to "let the writers know, you know, about Laurel and Oliver" and being coy about whether she'd be kissing Stephen again, yeah, I definitely agree KC had a lot to do with it.

[Primal Slayer]

KC doesn't write the script and I doubt she requested them to put it in. That's on the writers. She can be open to Laurel exploring a relationship with Oliver sometime down the roadbut they don't have to do it just as MG told her that they wouldn't be. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, lemotomato said:

Given how, even after Oliver and Felicity drove off into the sunset in season 3, she was telling the audience at her panel to "let the writers know, you know, about Laurel and Oliver" and being coy about whether she'd be kissing Stephen again, yeah, I definitely agree KC had a lot to do with it.

She literally said at a con that marc didn't agree with her that Oliver was the love of Laurels life so obviously she had to do a bit of convincing for him to make it Canon. 

If she respected her character more, we would never have had that final scene the way it played out. 

So yeah I 95% blame her for slapping her own character in the face. 

Laurel Lance definitely deserved to be played by a less pathetic and talentless actor. 

And the fact that Marc finally gave in to Katie against his own beliefs shows that he really didn't give a shit about laurel lollll

[leopardprint]

I don't know though, couldn't the director and the EPs easily have overridden her or edited it out of the episode. Ultimately, they are responsible for the story so if they left it in, it's equally on them. 

It just made Laurel's relationship with Oliver and her role as Black Canary basically a sad, unrequited love story like she's a lame version of Eponine from Les Mis but doesn't get to sing a song about it or save anyone. 

One could argue that her not-a-deathbed confession was a weird meta about how the only two things that matter about the character are her mask and her love for OQ/GA. The inability to let go of the relationship with Oliver who was clearly being written to have an epic love story with someone else is just so bizarre. There have been plenty of female characters defined by their romantic relationships with men on television but typically the man reciprocates. Laurel is defined by her romantic relationship with a man who does not reciprocate. So weird!

Also wth was Oliver supposed to do with that notadeathbed confession? Like, she basically dumped a whole lot of extra guilt on him. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[Primal Slayer]

She did great in the role but she didn't seem to try to give input in the script at all throughout the 4 years so she wouldn't start now. I doubt she agreed with "don't let me be the last Canary". But hey if she spoke up she would be seen as bad mouthing the show and disrespectful, either way someone would turn it against her lol.

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

I don't know though, couldn't the director and the EPs easily have overridden her or edited it out of the episode. Ultimately, they are responsible for the story so if they left it in, it's equally on them. 

She was script writer, director, supervisor, wardrobe, make up, camera man, casting, executive producer, showrunner, the whole 9 yards. 

[wonderwall]

4 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I don't know though, couldn't the director and the EPs easily have overridden her or edited it out of the episode. Ultimately, they are responsible for the story so if they left it in, it's equally on them. 

You have to keep in mind that in season 4 the show was massively behind schedule. So I can see why if they get a decent shot they'd just run with it and move on as fast as possible. 

[Chaser]

She said before that she had would give feedback to the writers about what Laurel would say or not say. She implied they listened to her.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

You have to keep in mind that in season 4 the show was massively behind schedule. So I can see why if they get a decent shot they'd just run with it and move on as fast as possible. 

I forgot about that. Was it because of the crossover?

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

She said before that she had would give feedback to the writers about what Laurel would say or not say. She implied they listened to her.

I think towards the end the writers really didn't care about the character enough to really try to fight KC on anything... They knew they were killing her off and valued appeasing her more than anything. 

[LeighAn]

16 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

KC doesn't write the script and I doubt she requested them to put it in. That's on the writers. She can be open to Laurel exploring a relationship with Oliver sometime down the roadbut they don't have to do it just as MG told her that they wouldn't be. 

I'm pretty sure we have already had this discussion before and that @tv echo found the interviews and quotes from Marc and Katie that insinuated that they altered/wrote 4x18-4x19 to suit Katies head canons at her request.

 

I agree they probably shouldn't have listened to her but it doesn't change the fact that she endorsed it, she pushed for it, she wanted it. And the writers were probably willing to accept buyers remorse because they were the ones killing off her character anyway. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by LeighAn

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

I forgot about that. Was it because of the crossover?

I think it's partially due to that... And if the paps are to be believed KC is partially to be blamed as well. I'm sure there are other reasons too... 

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

I'm pretty sure we have already had this discussion before and that @tv echo found the interviews and quotes from Marc and Katie that they altered 4x18-4x19 to suit Katies head canons at her request.

 

I agree they probably shouldn't have listened to get but it doesn't change the fact that she endorsed it, she pushed for it, she wanted it. And the writers were probably willing to accept buyers remorse because they were the ones killing off her character anyway. 

Only thing I remember is that KC talked to MG about it at the beginning of the season and that he told her that he disagreed. Nothing ever about MG changed it to suit KC, especially 2 episodes worth.

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

She said before that she had would give feedback to the writers about what Laurel would say or not say. She implied they listened to her.

ahh yes I remember that part now, talking about how they would give her techno babble that seemed more suited for Felicity I think.

[leopardprint]

The Arrow writers have a habit of writing these scenes that end up retconning like half a season of relationship development. 

The 520 flashbacks are another example of this. 

Felicity was dating some random dude for 9 episodes who Oliver didn't find out about for 5 episodes. Ok, slightly weird but whatever. 

Then in 520 we find out prior to that, Felicity told Oliver she loved him but she wasn't ready to talk yet and then Oliver tells her he's not going anywhere. So what is she doing with Billy then? She's killing time with Billy while Oliver is supposed to be getting himself together? She's decided to move on but never tells Oliver who is allegedly waiting around for her? That doesn't really reflect super well on Felicity. 

Then Billy dies and Oliver gets serious with Susan which reflects poorly on him for so many reasons that have been repeatedly posted about (by myself in particular).

Arrow really needs a relationship continuity editor. 

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Only thing I remember is that KC talked to MG about it at the beginning of the season and that he told her that he disagreed. Nothing ever about MG changed it to suit KC, especially 2 episodes worth.

KC has gone on public record consistently championing a few things:
- She wanted to become BC
- She asked to design her costume the way she wanted
- She wanted training scenes with Stephen
- She wanted more stunts/action
- Oliver was Laurel's soulmate. And at Philly Wizard World 2015, she still wanted kissing scenes with Stephen.

There were the things she asked for, and ultimately got. I don't see why suddenly the last item is where it's totally the writers' fault for not drawing the line and not giving it to her.
 

Edited July 1, 2017 by lemotomato

[Primal Slayer]

None of those things changed anything major with the show/character. Her championing something isn't equal to changing the script. She and EBR wanted Laulicity to be more friends. 

She was told from day 1 that she was going to be Black Canary, she didn't suddenly say "HEY GUYS! I think I should be Black Canary" and they were like "YEAH! Good idea! Sure! Lets do it!"

Nothing she wanted changed the script. 

She talked to MG about her feelings towards Oliver/Laurel and she said that he disagreed. But yeah, now he totally let it influence 2 episodes to appease her.   

Edited July 1, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[lemotomato]

That's fine. I can accept that the writers independently thought of Laurel as a pathetic hanger on and that's why they wrote her last scenes that way.

[wonderwall]

24 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The 520 flashbacks are another example of this. 

 

I don't consider the 520 flashback to be an example of a retcon simply because you can fill in the blanks and it would still make perfect sense.

Felicity's PoV:

Oliver/Felicity try to maintain a new status quo of being friends after 423. It doesn't really work out well because they get drunk and spend the night together. Only until later does Felicity realize that she's not ready to be with Oliver yet nor talk to him which makes sense because he really did hurt her and it's obvious they weren't ready to get down to their biggest issue - trust. So Felicity tries to live her life and maybe that includes seeing if she can fall in love with someone who isn't Oliver because maybe she feels like she owes it to herself to see if she can move on... So she tries with Billy and fails. She was about to tell Oliver how she really feels about him in 505 but ends up not doing it because Oliver tells her that maybe they SHOULD try moving on. Then Billy died etc..

Oliver's PoV:

Even after 423 Oliver is obviously in love with Felicity especially considering we saw him give her heart eyes in the flashback. And when they drunkenly he likely thought this was the right step forward when Felicity (rightfully) put a stop to it. Felicity gave him hope that it's not over and so he hung onto that until he found out that Felicity had a boyfriend. He thought she was moving on and so he himself tried to move on as well because he likely thought that he lost his chance with Felicity forever. 

And after Oliver found out about Felicity's boyfriend they started to grow more distant which makes sense. Then Billy died and Felicity started becoming more distant from everything including Oliver to the point where no one could reach her until 520. 

IMO just because the writers didn't fill in the blanks doesn't mean it's necessarily a retcon.

Edited July 1, 2017 by wonderwall

[tangerine95]

I do believe KC wanted the deathbed love confession because it's literally almost word for word taken out of her season 4 interviews and that the writers let her have it probably because they're not invested in her character anyway and didn't care how it made her look.But imo that was a really bad decision because no matter how little they care for Laurel,she was still a character on the show and she affects it and that just made everything they ever did with her and every interaction she had with especially Oliver and even with Felicity look bad.And if they already decided to make her saint Laurel after she died it's even worse.

[leopardprint]

13 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Only until later does Felicity realize that she's not ready to be with Oliver yet nor talk to him which makes sense because he really did hurt her and it's obvious they weren't ready to get down to their biggest issue - trust.

She tells him this outright in the flashback though, that's she's not ready to talk to him and he needs to figure out why he lied and then he says he's not going anywhere. So the implication to me is that Oliver needs to do something (?) on his end to make it happen. They needed an additional scene to get from there to Billy, imo, even though we all know he was just there so Oliver could kill him and sleep with Susan. I think his eventual acceptance of the new team is supposed to be his developing into a more trusting person (wtfever) but I think if they had added a scene with Oliver just totally brushing Felicity off about this and then she meets Billy or something it would have tied things together slightly better. 

I think also because the only time the "we need to have the William talk" is brought up is in 520 it seems really abrupt. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

She tells him this outright in the flashback though, that's she's not ready to talk to him and he needs to figure it why he lied and then he says he's not going anywhere. So the implication to me is that Oliver needs to do something (?) on his end to make it happen. They needed an additional scene to get from there to Billy, imo

She tells him outright that she's not ready to talk to him and that he needs to figure out why he doesn't trust her... And when he doesn't figure it out and more time goes by I can see why Felicity would feel like she needs to look elsewhere. She knows she loves him, but she knows none of them have figured out their trust issues. I doubt Oliver wanted to admit to himself why... And I can see why she'd try to move on the longer it was taking Oliver to figure things out. 

But yes, they needed an additional scene to get from there to Billy - but that still doesn't mean it's a retcon. 

6 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

even though we all know he was just there so Oliver could kill him and sleep with Susan. 

Well no... He was primarily there to kick-start Felicity's dark arc. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by wonderwall

[LeighAn]

48 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The Arrow writers have a habit of writing these scenes that end up retconning like half a season of relationship development. 

The 520 flashbacks are another example of this. 

Felicity was dating some random dude for 9 episodes who Oliver didn't find out about for 5 episodes. Ok, slightly weird but whatever. 

Then in 520 we find out prior to that, Felicity told Oliver she loved him but she wasn't ready to talk yet and then Oliver tells her he's not going anywhere. So what is she doing with Billy then? She's killing time with Billy while Oliver is supposed to be getting himself together? She's decided to move on but never tells Oliver who is allegedly waiting around for her? That doesn't really reflect super well on Felicity. 

Then Billy dies and Oliver gets serious with Susan which reflects poorly on him for so many reasons that have been repeatedly posted about (by myself in particular).

Arrow really needs a relationship continuity editor. 

Kind of a weird segue way but okay.

 

To me very different situations. Season 5 opened up with the question "What's going on with Oliver and Felicity?" That's how the first episode of the seasons ends with Diggle asking Oliver what's happening with Oliver and Felicity and if there is still an Oliver and Felicity. They were written to be intentionally ambiguous. Saying they moved on, saying they no longer had the relationship they once had, trying to form a real romantic relationship with someone else, while acting in the contrary and opposite when around each other that suggests they never really moved on, lost the relationship they had or weren't affected by the fact that the other was with someone else.  The flashbacks were the insight or answer to Diggles original question in the premiere.

 

I do think that there should have been more point of view from Felicity about why she was with Billy or how she came to be with him but even without that or ignoring that I think the 5x20 flash backs fit within the context of Olicitys impasse and dilemma in season 5. They were at an impasse that left them in limbo until someone or something was big enough to get them to break it. Felicity couldn't forgive Oliver for not telling her about William until she understood or got some explanation from him about why he didn't trust her and why he continually doesn't trust her with parts of himself- requiring some soul searching from Oliver. Oliver wasn't ready to talk to Felicity until she gave him some sign she was willing to listen without walking away. Through out the season we see them both struggle and overcome that. We see them talk fight apologise and learn more about each other and understand each other, not just in 5x20 but in episodes like 5x04, 5x10, 5x12, 5x19 etc. 

 

Billy and Susan werent what was keeping Olicity apart but a symptom of Oliver and Felicitys inability to budge from the terms the other laid out. Oliver wasn't prepared or wasn't able to find a sufficient reason or answer to Felicity's question until Chases machinations took him to the rawest parts of himself. And Felicity who has tended to walk away and move on rather then stay and argue and hash things out, wasn't prepared to waste her life waiting for Oliver to figure something out that he might never. So they both tried to move on with other people.

 

It was haphazardly done and at times stupidly badly handled and written by the writers and should have been resolved much earlier but wasn't because the writers wanted it stretched out till the finale.

 

But it's very different from one character confessing to another character that he's the love of life after their relationship had been over for four years nor acknowledged and the female character had been on the records as saying the 'love of her life' doesn't respect her only ten or so episodes prior and the season before hand saying she doesn't remember why she ever loved him in the first place. 

[statsgirl]

Diggle in jail kick-started Felicity's connection to Helix.  Susan and then Oliver being kidnapped was what made her go over to the dark side to get info to get them bad, and Havenrock was what turned her soul bitter so that she would do those things.  WM can tell me till she's blue in the face that Felicity's dark arc was about Billy but I don't see in the least that they needed him for it.  Billy was so that Oliver could get involved with Susan and go to Susan for support because he'd killed Felicity's boyfriend.  Otherwise he would have gone to Diggle or Felicity herself.

The problem that I have with the conversation in 5x20 was that Oliver was willing to talk to Felicity and work things out with her but she told him that she wasn't ready to talk yet.  And then suddenly she was in a relationship with Billy without even telling Oliver who (as we know in 5x01) was still on hold waiting to talk things over with her.

Oliver didn't move on until 5x05 when he found out that was in a new relationship.  That sounds to me like he was waiting for her to make the next move.  As crappy as the BMD made Oliver look in s4, this taints Felicity in s5.

2 hours ago, leopardprint said:

Idk would this be considered inappropriate? No, because they are not exes?

That was in 2x06 wasn't it?  When Diggle was off to get put into a Russia prison to save Lyla and all three of them knew he might not survive.  Under the circumstances, I'd say definitely appropriate.

What really wasn't appropriate was this season when Felicity got Diggle out of prison and he didn't even call her to thank her until he showed up in the lair for the next assignment.

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

She did great in the role but she didn't seem to try to give input in the script at all throughout the 4 years so she wouldn't start now. I doubt she agreed with "don't let me be the last Canary".

The "Don't let me be the last Canary was in 5x01, right?  Yeah, it's most likely a directive from up top to set up bringing in Diah.

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

jojDiggle in jail kick-started Felicity's connection to Helix.  Susan and then Oliver being kidnapped was what made her go over to the dark side to get info to get them bad, and Havenrock was what turned her soul bitter so that she would do those things.  WM can tell me till she's blue in the face that Felicity's dark arc was about Billy but I don't see in the least that they needed him for it.  Billy was so that Oliver could get involved with Susan and go to Susan for support because he'd killed Felicity's boyfriend.  Otherwise he would have gone to Diggle or Felicity herself.

 

I agree it gave her a reason to connect with Helix, but IMO she would've had to be in a pretty dark place to continue to interact with them. The dark place was sparked by Billy dying. WM can say that it was all about Billy but that's a blatant lie. Billy was only a part of it - and the spark.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

What really wasn't appropriate was this season when Felicity got Diggle out of prison and he didn't even call her to thank her until he showed up in the lair for the next assignment.

And he didn't even thank her, right? Wasn't their only exchange before getting down to business basically a greeting? Chase got the thanks for Diggle's freedom (officially and via WM's comments in the producer's preview for the episode). 

That 206 gif just reminds me how much I miss Diggle and Felicity being friends on-screen. 

[statsgirl]

31 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I agree it gave her a reason to connect with Helix, but IMO she would've had to be in a pretty dark place to continue to interact with them. The dark place was sparked by Billy dying. WM can say that it was all about Billy but that's a blatant lie. Billy was only a part of it - and the spark.

Havenrock would have been enough to get her dark enough to work with Helix if they hadn't skated through that.  Thousands of people had died because she couldn't save them.

I think they needed to make Billy relevant at that point  Felicity had lost Sara, who was a good friend in s2.  She'd lost Laurel, who we're told was a good friend, in s4 on top of being paralyzed.  S3 she would have done anything to get Oliver back; s4 she told Oliver to kill Damian Darhk after he'd killed Laurel.  All of those were worse than Billy's death. And Helix, so far as we know right now, isn't even that bad.  Wanting to find Susan and get her away from Chase, much less save Oliver who was held for a week, would have been spark enough.

MG said that for Felicity, the past four years put her down the dark path.  We never saw enough of her connection to Billy to make it his death that pushed her over the edge. She couldn't even call him her boyfriend in the episode.

Tyler Ritter played a character that was just a prop for the plot but good for him to doing as much with it as he did.

Edited July 1, 2017 by statsgirl

[Cleanqueen]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

None of those things changed anything major with the show/character. Her championing something isn't equal to changing the script. She and EBR wanted Laulicity to be more friends. 

She was told from day 1 that she was going to be Black Canary, she didn't suddenly say "HEY GUYS! I think I should be Black Canary" and they were like "YEAH! Good idea! Sure! Lets do it!"

Nothing she wanted changed the script. 

She talked to MG about her feelings towards Oliver/Laurel and she said that he disagreed. But yeah, now he totally let it influence 2 episodes to appease her.   

As I recall seeing last year, a fan messaged Marc and asked him about Katie saying how Oliver's soulmate and Marc replied "Yes I was just discussing that with Katie yesterday..." and this is when they were writing 4x18. At the time nobody believed the Brazilian fan because everyone was like why would he reply to the person as a message but not a question on his tumblr account. But after seeing the episode you can clearly see that discussion did indeed happen and that Katie did want that line included in the script. It also explains why she then had to make it clear that Felicity was his. In 4x11, Laurel clearly tells Oliver how deeply in love he is with Felicity..Laurel would never be pathetic enough to then tell Oliver on her death bed that he was the love of her life. But since Katie has been the only one since season 1 pushing this, it makes sense that it was a request that she made.

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

As I recall seeing last year, a fan messaged Marc and asked him about Katie saying how Oliver's soulmate and Marc replied "Yes I was just discussing that with Katie yesterday..." and this is when they were writing 4x18. At the time nobody believed the Brazilian fan because everyone was like why would he reply to the person as a message but not a question on his tumblr account. But after seeing the episode you can clearly see that discussion did indeed happen and that Katie did want that line included in the script. It also explains why she then had to make it clear that Felicity was his. In 4x11, Laurel clearly tells Oliver how deeply in love he is with Felicity..Laurel would never be pathetic enough to then tell Oliver on her death bed that he was the love of her life. But since Katie has been the only one since season 1 pushing this, it makes sense that it was a request that she made.

Nothing about this shows proof that she wanted or requested the line in there. 

[Cleanqueen]

Yeah it does. Because she is the ONLY one to ever push the laurel is Oliver's soulmate narrative, the show hasn't and esp not since season 1. So what other proof do you need than the actress herself explaining that this is how she felt and marc himself mentioning that there was a discussion about this.

I mea I guess if you dont want to believe it, then it's easier to just say it's not proof.

[Primal Slayer]

16 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Yeah it does. Because she is the ONLY one to ever push the laurel is Oliver's soulmate narrative, the show hasn't and esp not since season 1. So what other proof do you need than the actress herself explaining that this is how she felt and marc himself mentioning that there was a discussion about this.

I mea I guess if you dont want to believe it, then it's easier to just say it's not proof.

You are trying to piece things together and filling in the blanks with your own thoughts. Were you part of the conversation? Do you have the audio recording? Have a script that is different? Quote where she or he said that it was asked for it to be in the script? Just sounds like more of the usual "we as fans know everything that goes on bts" 

[Cleanqueen]

Just like we as fans knew she would be the one in the grave by piecing things together...it's pretty easy to speculate when you have pieces of information. If there is more evidence to support that she did indeed ask for it then the burden of proof is on the person who says she didn't to give proof of their opinion.