Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

The part that makes me point and laugh forever is Guggie admitted the problem with execution last year was they got fixated on pre-determined beats they needed to hit... and they're doing it again, because the whole avoidance of talking about Felicity going dark is obviously because they have pre-determined beats to hit in the upcoming episodes.

Insanity is expecting a different outcome, right.

[thegirlsleuth]

I'm assuming Oliver doesn't know about Felicity's dark turn because with this show, unless the conversation happens on screen, I assume it didn't happen.  My favorite example of this was Laurel finding out in season 4 that Thea had been brought back via the Lazarus pit. I could not believe that it hadn't come up before, particularly since Thea was living with her.  I sort of figured that over waffles one day Thea would say "So you know how I was mortally wounded when Ras stabbed me?  Well, I got thrown in the Lazarus Pit.  And now I have homicidal urges.  Can you pass the syrup?"

[statsgirl]

15 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Also, has Diggle thanked Felicity for getting him out of prison? Since that OTA scene in the lair was played like it was the first time they saw each other, it doesn't seem like it.

It was nice that Chase said that the real person to thank is the anonymous person who gave him the file on the general that allowed him to get Diggle out of jail but it's not enough. It's information, not heart.  If they would have put in a 'Diggle thanks Felicity with a hug and a depth of feeling', it would have gone a way towards bringing back the emotional connection of OTA that is the heart of the show and that has gotten lost with all the new characters this season.

[wonderwall]

12 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I'm assuming Oliver doesn't know about Felicity's dark turn because with this show, unless the conversation happens on screen, I assume it didn't happen. 

But in 512 he literally acknowledged that something was wrong with Felicity after seeing how OK she was with the torture and he notices how she's heading down a slippery slope...?

[thegirlsleuth]

19 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

But in 512 he literally acknowledged that something was wrong with Felicity after seeing how OK she was with the torture and he notices how she's heading down a slippery slope...?

I should have been more specific:  he knows she's hiding something, but I don't think she knows that she threatened a man's family to get information.  Generally, he knows there's something wrong because Rory told him, but I don't think he knows details.

I do think that in the normal course of events that Oliver would have followed up on that conversation, but for plot purpose they probably want Felicity to continue on some sort of dark turn so they are putting off that confrontation. 

[wonderwall]

10 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I should have been more specific:  he knows she's hiding something, but I don't think she knows that she threatened a man's family to get information.  Generally, he knows there's something wrong because Rory told him, but I don't think he knows details.

 

Yeah I think Oliver is between a rock and a hard place right now. Because even though he cares and wants to ask her about it, he probably doesn't want to push her. Not only that, as Felicity said earlier this season, they don't really have that kind of relationship anymore where she can open up to Oliver. So Oliver is left to be in this position where he wants to be there for her, but thinks it's not his place to help guide her.

I kind of like it that he isn't forcing Felicity to tell him what's wrong because Felicity never forced Oliver to tell her anything that he wasn't ready to tell her. 

I guess we'll see what happens in due time.

[tv echo]

This is a great list - but the problem is, S5 has been all about pretending these memorable Olicity milestones never happened...

Arrow: 37 Moments That Remind Us Why Olicity is Endgame
Alyssa Barbieri   Feb. 11, 2017
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-36-moments-remind-us-olicity-endgame/

[tv echo]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

That story of who he is with Felicity isn't over.  I was rooting for that guy.  I don't particularly like this current version of him and I am not interested in seeing who he would become with someone else.  That's not the story or I'm invested in.  

And by that, I don't mean Olicity  per say, but that the show continuing with Olicity feels like the only way to me that the story of Oliver becoming this better man can be told.  Sure, Felicity could vanish and he could just become the perfect balance of GA and OQ but it would be deeply unsatisfying for him to not succeed against the biggest adversary he's faced, himself.  Season four made too big of a deal out of Olicity for me to ever feel he can come out a winner if he ends up with anyone else.  You can't have a line like "you're my always" and then have him actually completely content and in love with someone else .  Maybe in a more realistic drama but not with the genre of superheroes.  Anything that would come next is tainted by the knowledge that it's a substitute for what he wants.  A substitute for what IMO made him the best version of Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow.  

Who Oliver Queen might be in a serious romantic relationship with Dinah Drake could turn out to be a perfectly serviceable hero, but that's not the guy I care about.  That's not the journey I've stuck around to see.  That's not the show I can watch.   

I agree with you. But remember when we used to discuss the fear that the show would pivot back to Laurel and that all the character development Oliver had through his relationship with Felicity would just be used to make him ready for an adult relationship with Laurel?  Well, I have that same fear again - but this time with Tinah.

[statsgirl]

I could see it happening with Laurel because she was his first love and the story we're told is that Ollie screwed it up by being too immature and selfish.  A mature, self-actualized Oliver could go back to his one true love make it work this time.

But with Tinah, there's no history, no lost love and regrets, nothing really to bond them.  It might as well be any new character on the show. Even Susan.

8 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Yeah I think Oliver is between a rock and a hard place right now. Because even though he cares and wants to ask her about it, he probably doesn't want to push her. Not only that, as Felicity said earlier this season, they don't really have that kind of relationship anymore where she can open up to Oliver. So Oliver is left to be in this position where he wants to be there for her, but thinks it's not his place to help guide her.

When Felicity said that, I took it to mean that she and Oliver no longer talk about things like that any  more, not that she couldn't open up to Oliver if she wanted to.  They used to be close but now they keep a distance from each other and don't get into discussions about feelings any more.

So if Oliver truly cares about her and is worried about her, I don't see any reason (other than plot) that he couldn't go to her and say What was Rory talking about? Because I cares about you and I want to make sure you're okay.

[ComicFan777]

It's hard for me to imagine Oliver and Tina being together because Tina kinda reminds me of all of Oliver's exes post-island (Sara, Laurel, Helena, Mckenna) rolled into one person and none of those people really worked with him in a forever-type relationship, whereas Felicity is the one that he thought of as forever.  In this way, Oliver and Tina friendship would represent to me Oliver's growth of being able to be friends with a woman without having slept with her or the urge to sleep with her.  I hope that's the way the story goes.

Edited February 11, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

Even if they are determined to not have Oliver and Felicity talk about this now, they could have had him talk to say, Diggle or Rory, for now. I actually wish we had gotten another conversation between Oliver and Rory before Rory left, especially since Rory told him something was going on and I feel like once Rory was on the team, they decided those two just needed to have the briefest of conversations and that was it. Or Oliver could have said something to Diggle about worrying about what Felicity did at the end of that bar scene. Just... something. 

[bijoux]

I'm bummed Rory and Oliver didn't get more interactions even if you take Felicity out of the equation. Their fathers sacrificing themselves was such a great way to parallel or contrast them. But that's Arrow for you, not fulfilling its potential since 2012.

[ARLES]

Arrow is a show driven by plot progression. Plot is king. Characters are beholden to plot. 

These writers don't care about the means when writting a story. It's all about point A to point B, how they do that they don't put much value in. It changes all the time, there is no concrete plan of how to get there. As a fan of good writing I happen to think the means to an end is the most important part of the end. How your get to your point defines the point, validates it's, makes it good writing or amateur crap. 

The mess we saw with Olicity in season 4 was all about we need to break them and it was done horribly because how it was done didn't matter just that they did it. When Olicity gets back together, and I believe they will, look for it to be a mess as well, because these writers are BAD, they do a few things well and got blessed with a cast and a couple that have chemistry that leap off the screen. 

[wonderwall]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

So if Oliver truly cares about her and is worried about her, I don't see any reason (other than plot) that he couldn't go to her and say What was Rory talking about? Because I cares about you and I want to make sure you're okay.

Idk I think oliver forcing felicity to tell him something she doesn't want to talk about would be out of line especially when she never forced him to do the same when he was thinking stupid/dangerous thoughts. 

Even Stephen said he knows Pandora isn't something Felicity wants to talk about with him so he has to deal with it his own way. 

I don't think Oliver cares less about Felicity because he doesn't want to push her. For all he knows she's in a precarious position and if he forces her to talk she'll just shut him out even further and slip even deeper into darkness. That's something I'm sure he wants to avoid 100%

Edited February 11, 2017 by wonderwall

[theOAfc]

2 hours ago, ARLES said:

Arrow is a show driven by plot progression. Plot is king. Characters are beholden to plot. 

These writers don't care about the means when writting a story. It's all about point A to point B, how they do that they don't put much value in. It changes all the time, there is no concrete plan of how to get there. As a fan of good writing I happen to think the means to an end is the most important part of the end. How your get to your point defines the point, validates it's, makes it good writing or amateur crap. 

The mess we saw with Olicity in season 4 was all about we need to break them and it was done horribly because how it was done didn't matter just that they did it. When Olicity gets back together, and I believe they will, look for it to be a mess as well, because these writers are BAD, they do a few things well and got blessed with a cast and a couple that have chemistry that leap off the screen. 

If Olicity gets back together,i think it will be as forced and rushed as how they went from being engaged to cool work buddies. 

[AyChihuahua]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I could see it happening with Laurel because she was his first love and the story we're told is that Ollie screwed it up by being too immature and selfish.  A mature, self-actualized Oliver could go back to his one true love make it work this time.

It's funny, I KNEW they'd never ever ever put Oliver and Laurel back together, ever, bc of the real-life total stankface anti-chem. No story choices can fix that. 

There's maybe average chem bw Steve and JH, but there's certainly no anti-chem. If they go w BC/GA, it'll just be "because." Bc comics, bc bts, bc Geoff Johns, whatever, so the story reasons to keep him with Felicity (which I TOTALLY AGREE exist), won't matter. 

[statsgirl]

I've just been reading the ratings thread and it seems like a completely bone-headed move to put Oliver with Tinah now.  Even William Shatner would agree and he knows what he's talking about.

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Idk I think oliver forcing felicity to tell him something she doesn't want to talk about would be out of line especially when she never forced him to do the same when he was thinking stupid/dangerous thoughts. 

We'll see what Oliver does (other than For Plot) in the coming episodes but right now he doesn't know about Pandora.  All he knows is that Rory told him something was going on with Felicity and that Felicity responded to Diggle beating the guy up with "Did he tell you anything?"

Felicity has certainly been vocal enough in the past when she didn't like something Oliver was doing whether he wanted to talk about it or not (quitting in 1x15 because he was targeting a single dad; saying he needs to make things right with Diggle in seasons 1 and 4; telling him off about working with Malcolm in s3) even though he never wanted to talk about the things she thought he was doing wrong and they hadn't been in a relationship yet.  Diggle and Felicity both went after him when he was going to sacrifice himself to Slade.

It will be interesting to see how Oliver handles this.  Frankly at this point I'll be surprised if he does anything at all other than leave it to Diggle and mop up any mess afterwards.

[Velocity23]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It will be interesting to see how Oliver handles this.  Frankly at this point I'll be surprised if he does anything at all other than leave it to Diggle and mop up any mess afterwards.

But would Diggle actually be a help? I still remember the "Felicity will get over it" after Olivers lie was revealed. And Diggle understood why Oliver lied. 

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

But would Diggle actually be a help? I still remember the "Felicity will get over it" after Olivers lie was revealed. And Diggle understood why Oliver lied. 

Ugh, that still annoys me considering how angry Diggle was at the beginning of S4 after he had an entire summer to "get over it" and Felicity had just found out the truth and was being forced into a fake wedding with her ex-fiancé. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[wonderwall]

34 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity has certainly been vocal enough in the past when she didn't like something Oliver was doing whether he wanted to talk about it or not (quitting in 1x15 because he was targeting a single dad; saying he needs to make things right with Diggle in seasons 1 and 4; telling him off about working with Malcolm in s3) even though he never wanted to talk about the things she thought he was doing wrong and they hadn't been in a relationship yet.  Diggle and Felicity both went after him when he was going to sacrifice himself to Slade.

 

I agree Felicity has been vocal about stuff Oliver has done - but that's because she actually knew what Oliver was doing and what was happening. Oliver right now is kind of running in blind because he has no clue as to what's happening. However, Oliver was definitely vocal about acknowledging that something's wrong with Felicity and telling both her and Diggle that they're both better than him and he hates to see them that way... 

I, too, will be interested in seeing how this all comes to a head. I'm guessing 515 will be that episode. 

Can't wait!

[Chaser]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I've just been reading the ratings thread and it seems like a completely bone-headed move to put Oliver with Tinah now.  Even William Shatner would agree and he knows what he's talking about.

Randomly, the funny thing about that Shatner tweet was that the one he was replying to never mentioned Olicity, they just said they loved the series. Shatner said he loved Olicity. Maybe it was just for the RTs/Likes but I thought that was kind of great. 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

It's funny, I KNEW they'd never ever ever put Oliver and Laurel back together, ever, bc of the real-life total stankface anti-chem. No story choices can fix that. 

There's maybe average chem bw Steve and JH, but there's certainly no anti-chem. If they go w BC/GA, it'll just be "because." Bc comics, bc bts, bc Geoff Johns, whatever, so the story reasons to keep him with Felicity (which I TOTALLY AGREE exist), won't matter. 

I actually think there is a strong chance they will do OQ/Tina because they are stubborn people and want to prove that they can write GA/BC.

I also think they're stupid enough to not realize what they had with O/F, and rather than curate it - they have pissed all over it and not even realized it. Because I don't think they understand what makes O/F magical & powerful. And if you don't understand something, you're bound to underappreciate it.

And if you don't learn from your mistakes, you are bound to repeat them. They never understood the mistakes they made with OQ/LL, OQ/FS, or basically any romantic relationship with OQ. I fully expect them to go full speed into a disastrous OQ/Tina relationship for far stupider reasons than because and for plot.

Edited February 11, 2017 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Arguing against OQ/DD is the fact that the show has one, maybe two more seasons to go.    They would need to completely dismantle Olicity and start a whole new relationship in 2 1/2 seasons.  And if it failed, they'd need to build Olicity up or have Oliver end with no one.

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

I agree Felicity has been vocal about stuff Oliver has done - but that's because she actually knew what Oliver was doing and what was happening. Oliver right now is kind of running in blind because he has no clue as to what's happening. However, Oliver was definitely vocal about acknowledging that something's wrong with Felicity and telling both her and Diggle that they're both better than him and he hates to see them that way...

Oliver knows something is going on with Felicity -- is he going to confront her and ask what it is?  Or think his brief talk fixed things?  Or that Diggle will handle it?

Do you remember who wrote 5x15?  Right now Brian Ford Sullivan is the only writer I trust.

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

But would Diggle actually be a help? I still remember the "Felicity will get over it" after Olivers lie was revealed. And Diggle understood why Oliver lied. 

Diggle and Thea were both Stupid For Plot in 4B.  None of us could connect Thea "I'm leaving because everyone lies to me" to the one who said Oliver was right to lie. 

I could see Oliver delegating talking to Felicity to Diggle because Diggle is the one who talks to him when he's being stupid and also thinking that right now, Diggle is closer to Felicity than he himself is so it would be better to let Diggle  handle it.

[Velocity23]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I could see Oliver delegating talking to Felicity to Diggle because Diggle is the one who talks to him when he's being stupid and also thinking that right now, Diggle is closer to Felicity than he himself is so it would be better to let Diggle  handle it.

Spoiler

Will Diggle have the time while he is mentoring Dinah and Rene?

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Do you remember who wrote 5x15?  Right now Brian Ford Sullivan is the only writer I trust.

515 is written by Speed Weed & Ben Sokolowski. This season, Speed Weed co-wrote 502 and 511. Sokolowski co-wrote 503, 507, 510.

Edited February 11, 2017 by lemotomato

[kismet]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Arguing against OQ/DD is the fact that the show has one, maybe two more seasons to go.    They would need to completely dismantle Olicity and start a whole new relationship in 2 1/2 seasons.  And if it failed, they'd need to build Olicity up or have Oliver end with no one.

They have done a pretty good job on the dismantling part. And not having enough time to properly do something has never stopped them before. And I do believe there is a good chance that OQ may die at the end of the series. So who he ends up with may not even matter.

Your point is valid if the writers care about quality and execution. 5 seasons of "for plot" TV has proven that they don't always care about that. I want your point to be accurate, because I want a better show. I just accept that at face value some things are more important to the writers than quality storytelling.

[AyChihuahua]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Arguing against OQ/DD is the fact that the show has one, maybe two more seasons to go.    They would need to completely dismantle Olicity and start a whole new relationship in 2 1/2 seasons.  And if it failed, they'd need to build Olicity up or have Oliver end with no one.

I don't see it that way, I guess. The only time they've taken their time with anything is O/F in the first place, and even that is kind of iffy, what with the running-off-together-12-hours-after-fake-killing thing. I think if they want to/have been told to do it, they just will. Look how they stuck DD on the team as a full member with no build-up. 

If they do it, I think they'll just have a moment or whatever this season, start S6 with a scene making it clear they've grown close working together over the summer, and then they'll stick them together. And if they decide that's not working, they'll just...unstick them and two eps later stick him with Felicity and have him say a line about how she's his always. 

[kismet]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

later stick him with Felicity and have him say a line about how she's his always. 

Now, I fully envision some cheesy FS whispering "you're my always" over a bleeding and potentially dying OQ in the final moments of the series.

[Velocity23]

I honestly havent seen any dismantling. And the new team member is getting the speeded up LL treatment. 

[AyChihuahua]

9 minutes ago, kismet said:

Now, I fully envision some cheesy FS whispering "you're my always" over a bleeding and potentially dying OQ in the final moments of the series.

Two years ago the idea of the show ending like that would have really upset me.

Now? Meh. Probably best if he doesn't propagate his clearly-defective genes any further than he has.

[Mellowyellow]

15 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Two years ago the idea of the show ending like that would have really upset me.

Now? Meh. Probably best if he doesn't propagate his clearly-defective genes any further than he has.

Honestly my standards are so low maybe throw in a good kiss before he kicks the bucket and I'll still think it was ok! Fanfic can then fix the rest!

Off topic: I watched a series once  where at the end one half of OTP lost her powers and aged to a zillion years old and died. Male lead went and became a monk. The other LI (the rival ship) went blind. 

I'd be totally on board for a dead OQ and sobbing FS! Anything is better than this sh@t right now. The only trouble I forsee is that I can't watch it while he's dating Dinah.

[way2interested]

27 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I honestly havent seen any dismantling. And the new team member is getting the speeded up LL treatment. 

Agree. If anything, I see it as the writers not wanting to do semblances of how they wrote for Laurel again (dismantling a couple from main romantic status, attempted slow build-up and then jammed in heroic story), so avoiding writing it that way altogether. It's semi-lazy and brings some writing problems (Tinah going to Russia with them after just joining is a-ok I guess, meanwhile Oliver and Felicity have no leftover tension from almost getting married for a good portion of 5a), but it's basically them just trying to avoid writing slow or unappealing things.

Give me a scene between Oliver and Felicity like Oliver and Laurel's in 214

Spoiler

(which could happen in a later possible confrontation, but with SA's words about Oliver and Felicity having an "adult" conversation about it, idk if it will end up like that)

and then I can see talking about "dismantling."

[kismet]

They torpedoed OQ/LL. Dismantling is slowly taking apart something in pieces. They have started that with OQ/FS. They don't talk as much as they used to both in actual scenes and per script convos. They don't share as much as they used too. FS is keeping secrets from OQ. New LIs for both, without either of them pining for each other. It's hard for the 2 of them to even share scenes anymore. I know its for plot. But for plot is still canon, even if I don't like it.

I agree that I don't think they are being quick about it. And they certainly have not set out to destroy it. Both are a good thing for people who want O/F back together. But they are dismantling it. They may reverse course and start putting it back together.

They started dismantling it in s4, when they devoted a major plotline, character assassinations and a whole part of the season to setting up and executing a break-up. Breaking a couple up officially on script, in scenes, by marketing and by plot are all in Dismantling 101. Dismantling doesn't necessarily mean the end of a couple forever, it simply means that the couple is being taken apart piece by piece. It might get put back together like Ikea furniture. Or it might just stay in the box indefinitely.

They are dismantling O/F; they destroyed O/L - there is a difference.

Edited February 12, 2017 by kismet
typo

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

They torpedoed OQ/LL. Dismantling is slowly taking apart something in pieces. They have started that with OQ/FS. They don't talk as much as they used to both in actual scenes and per script convos. They don't share as much as they used too. FS is keeping secrets from OQ. New LIs for both, with either of them pining for each other. It's hard for the 2 of them to even share scenes anymore. I know its for plot. But for plot is still canon, even if I don't like it.

I agree that I don't think they are being quick about it. And they certainly have not set out to destroy it. Both are a good thing for people who want O/F back together. But they are dismantling it. They may reverse course and start putting it back together.

They started dismantling it in s4, when they devoted a major plotline, character assassinations and a whole part of the season to setting up and executing a break-up. Breaking a couple up officially on script, in scenes, by marketing and by plot are all in Dismantling 101. Dismantling doesn't necessarily mean the end of a couple forever, it simply means that the couple is being taken apart piece by piece. It might get put back together like Ikea furniture. Or it might just stay in the box indefinitely.

They are dismantling O/F; they destroyed O/L - there is a difference.

I guess it just might be a difference in perception. Dismantling to me is actively taking apart something, nothing to do with speed. From s5 I haven't seen active dismantling or active rekindling. I have seen an active to desire to avoid either, along with the drama of either, as much as possible (not talking as much in parts of 5a, not having drama at all concerning Oliver not knowing about Felicity's bf or even Oliver killing him, having temp LIs to avoid the relationship talk at all between them). 

Even arguing that they were dismantling it in s4 could be countered with the ideas of them trying to save face or fix it later (trying to save Oliver from character assassination-whether it worked or not-, Oliver and Felicity sharing feelings about Laurel's death, Felicity admitting that she was being harsh in 420, Oliver still listening to Felicity in an emotional way by the end of 420, Felicity staying with Oliver in 423). In s4 imo they were actively trying to stage a clean and clear break-up rather than dismantling the relationship. In fact, while even staging the break-up, they still had plenty of scenes and moments that just reminded the audience how deep and positive their relationship was (409, the end of 410, 411, even snippets in 412 and 413) rather than focusing on more set-up for the eventual break-up. 

If the idea of being apathetic in writing Oliver and Felicity (which I also don't like) is the same as dismantling to you, then I guess I understand, but I don't see that as dismantling. Moving on scenes like in 505 I could see as an active evidence of dismantling, but even then it was countered with Oliver not calling Susan by the end of it and Felicity being awkward with her bf, which kind of disrupt the "moving on" concept. Even some of your points I don't really agree with (Felicity has just started to keep a secret from Oliver and it's more related to her own character rather than her relationship was like Oliver's secret was, these temp LIs are for plot and neither Oliver or Felicity seemed too eager in-script to actually move on with this people nor are these relationships meant to last, and they've actually had emotionally charged/direct conversation scenes for the last three episodes straight), but, again it's more because I just perceive it differently. 

[statsgirl]

They did torpedo Lauriver but they also dismantled it.  Oliver said in the s1 Christmas episode that he's fine with Laurel dating Tommy, he felt all sorts of guilty when Tommy died shortly after he banged Laurel, at the start of s2 they talked and said they were done, Oliver turned down Laurel when she invited him in for a booty call a few eps later, and from then on he either tried to keep her out of the Team or acted like he hated she was there.

With Felicity they broke up but almost immediately afterwards they were working together again (when Laurel died) and Felicity was the only one who stayed to work with him.  Oliver expressed a desire to get back with Felicity in 5x01, something he's never done with Laurel since the end of s1, and they were "Dad and Mom" to the newbies.  It feels like a very clumsy attempt to have them apart while keeping the home fires between them rather than torpedoing.

[kismet]

Well, I'm not going to haggle over perception or the definition of dismantle. We can all see what we want to see. They are actively writing against the strengths of the pairing (even platonically). They are keeping them as separate units. They are burying their relationship & past connection. I know there have been fleeting moments of remember when or look at their connection. Emotionally charged convos don't mean much on this show. O/L had those in s1 and look where they wound up. But at the end of the day, they are not together and nothing indicates that that fact is going to change anytime soon. And the road has been cleared for them to pursue any new or old romantic trajectories for the characters without any connection to their pasts or present.

And this whole concept of dismantling started in response to OQ & Tinah getting together, but not being possible because they would have to dismantle O/F in the projected few remaining seasons. In my mind they have cleared the road to write O/T together if they want to. They have achieved it either by @way2interested's "clean break" or by my belief that they have been systematically dismantling the couple. The show is free to pursue O/Tina because there is no obstacle in their way, well except maybe the reporter for now. But that's an easy fix. And this show has never minded stepping over established or dismantled couples to write whatever they want. And if they want O/T together they will write them together.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I have zero idea what will happen with O/T or O/F at this point, as all my predictions for the season have happened and I'm plum out of predictions now. But IMO there's really no strong evidence either way. Narrative as support for O/F means nothing to me, bc the writers have made it clear, over and over, that it means nothing to THEM. If they want/have been told to make it happen, it just will. It may be strange and mediocre, but that is how the show rolls nowadays.

[insomniadreams88]

You know what would bother me about Oliver/Tinah in front of Felicity? The fact that Felicity's relationships have never been on display in front of Oliver (that I can remember - please correct me if I'm wrong). She and Ray were together at PT - where she couldn't have known he'd drop by - and there was nearly enough room for another person between her and Billy during the awkward holiday party scene. 

[Chaser]

They have Olicity walking a balance beam right now. Everything reads like a traditional ship stall but, and here is where they are balance checking, they introduced elements and storytelling that allow the audience to doubt that endgame. We've had conversations, undercurrents, big bright lights over their current relationships that say TEMP and a storyline that sets them up for a hell of a role reversal. This is in text and these are traditionally GOOD things for an endgame. And yet the fandom isn't buying it and I get it.

The PR/EPs are acting like Olicity aren't a thing. The EPs seem so terrified of relationship drama that they are acting like they were never about to walk down the aisle, like Oliver never thought about children, like Oliver never promised for better or for worse, like Felicity never said they found themselves in each other, etc, etc, etc, So we've had these moments but they don't quite feel 100% right. That's frustrating enough but than they went and added all these new characters with special status, including bending over backwards to introduce a new Black Canary. The boogeyman to the Olicity fandom.

 I'm comfortable in believing Olicity is going to get back together, but I've watched a lot of TV with a lot of ships. I recognize the blueprint. I'm aware of the PLOT and the BTS interference. And yet I find this season confusing, frustrating and frankly insulting at times. I can't imagine how a general audience member finds this season. 

[kismet]

@insomniadreams88 Oh no, there was that time when she was all over RP in the makeshift lair in PT, when OQ was not able to go into the field. It was uber awkward.

I don't think flaunting new relationships in front of old loves is something the writers care about or are sensitive to. Remember they are the same batch that thought sister-swapping was an amazing idea. Then rekindling that love via lunge. And then retconning O/L and Tommy's death to promote some gravitas to a non-death deathbed scene.

Edited February 12, 2017 by kismet

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

They have Olicity walking a balance beam right now. Everything reads like a traditional ship stall but, and here is where they are balance checking, they introduced elements and storytelling that allow the audience to doubt that endgame. We've had conversations, undercurrents, big bright lights over their current relationships that say TEMP and a storyline that sets them up for a hell of a role reversal. This is in text and these are traditionally GOOD things for an endgame. And yet the fandom isn't buying it and I get it.

The PR/EPs are acting like Olicity aren't a thing. The EPs seem so terrified of relationship drama that they are acting like they were never about to walk down the aisle, like Oliver never thought about children, like Oliver never promised for better or for worse, like Felicity never said they found themselves in each other, etc, etc, etc, So we've had these moments but they don't quite feel 100% right. That's frustrating enough but than they went and added all these new characters with special status, including bending over backwards to introduce a new Black Canary. The boogeyman to the Olicity fandom.

 I'm comfortable in believing Olicity is going to get back together, but I've watched a lot of TV with a lot of ships. I recognize the blueprint. I'm aware of the PLOT and the BTS interference. And yet I find this season confusing, frustrating and frankly insulting at times. I can't imagine how a general audience member finds this season. 

This is how I see it. The problem is that not actively rekindling them doesn't mean that they're dropping Olicity, yet not actively downing their relationship doesn't mean they're going back to it. For parts that can be construed as going back there are also parts that can be construed as dropping them. It just comes down to the writers not wanting the drama at all, both the good and bad parts (kind of following the idea of them wanting to do their s1-s2 relationship, but, you know, that pesky four years of relationship development happened).

We'll find out eventually, I suppose, but since I've liked how Oliver and Felicity have interacted in 510-512 so far, I'm still eager to see if anything comes out of it. It just still says something to me that we're coming up on 513 and they're still on this "balance beam" rather than us knowing either way where it's going. I guess that's also kind of like s2? (but even then, I'll admit around this time watching s2 I still expected Oliver and Sara to at least hook-up at some point because of tropes alone, but not as the same inclination with Tinah).

[kismet]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I'm comfortable in believing Olicity is going to get back together, but I've watched a lot of TV with a lot of ships. I recognize the blueprint. I'm aware of the PLOT and the BTS interference. And yet I find this season confusing, frustrating and frankly insulting at times. I can't imagine how a general audience member finds this season. 

I'm comfortable believing that Olicity will get back together. I'm also comfortable believing that they are done forever and ever. And there in lies the problem. I've watched a lot of TV and honestly it could break either way. I think I could be comfortable with each outcome at this point. A couple more months of this treatment, and others may join me in the comfortable ambiguity of Olicity. And I say this as someone who's primary reason for investing into Arrow was all about O/F. I watched the show in s1 & s2, but I was not invested. I probably would have eventually tuned back in to watch Slade meet his end. But O/S and the focus off OTA to the GA/BC show had rubbed me the wrong way. Actually I take that back, they didn't rub me at all - they just bored me. And now they've started walking me to apathy over O/F.

I've walked a balance beam before and that's a good analogy for what they are doing with Olicity. The scary part is it doesn't take much to fall off the beam. The show may think they are making all the right moves and avoiding all the balance checks. Even Simone Biles almost fell off the beam and these writers are not even close to being the Simone Biles of writers. Their tumbling and twisting may not be enough to razzle dazzle the audience into whatever future they have planned for the couple. Or they might not even have an audience to razzle dazzle. It's risky to walk the balance beam. I wish them all the best.

[Chaser]

The stupid thing is, I honestly don't think they want the audience to think Olicity is over at all. I firmly believe they wanted the S3 reaction. They wanted the trends and the buzz. The free promo. But there is a huge difference between S3 and S5. S3 they gave the fandom a huge episode and laid everything out for them, even if they played the suspense card for the media. This time they gave breadcrumbs. I think they expected the fandom to just be there while they focused on the newbies and masks and the action. HUGE miscalculation on their part.

[ladylaw99]

I don't know if they are or aren't putting Olicity together again, but for me I need the stories to make sense and I want the relationships that I have invested in the last 4 years to be front and center. Add new people that is fine but don't lose sight of the core cast. If Olicity gets together again, keep them together in the background, they work, if they decide to go the GA and BC route then I want Felicity far away from that relationship. I don't want to see any triangle.

I need Diggle to be a friend to Felicity and vice versa. I would love Thea and Felicity to interact, I never thought that would be such a huge task to achieve but it seems almost impossible.

I can't forget the last 4 years like others have mentioned and that's why I am struggling this year. That is on me, maybe I need to open my mind more, I don't know.

Relationships are so important whether romantic, family or friends, it is what makes us happy, sad, hurt etc without it we get nothing but the cast going through the scenes that leave me as a viewer feeling nothing. I can't even enjoy a hug anymore between Olicity.

Sorry I am frustrated with the show right now, it reminds me of season 1 when I was really not sure if I should bail on the show and OTA saved it for me then.  Felicity is my girl and right now I am here for her.

[Chaser]

I was looking for an Olicity scene on YouTube so I looked up OlicityQueens account and its shocking looking at the view counts. After the break up, they started decreasing until they just fall off dramatically. Esp between S4 and S5. I can't help but think Arrow shot themselves in the foot. IMO they convinced the fandom that this isn't your normal TV ship. Cause normal TV ships don't have the hero fall in love slowly with the unexpected fan-favorite (destorying their set endgame in the progress). Don't have the hero make this realization and remain in love and celibate for a season. Don't have the couple get together and be perfect - communicate, work thru their problems and be sexy and fun and healthy.  Don't have them get engaged and be prepared to walk down the aisle. Sure, they introduced the lie and the kid but they also set them up to get thru it. But they didn't. They went for the standard They-got-break-up-at-least-once in the worst way possible. In a way that twisted characterization and insulted everything they set up. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Chaser

[AyChihuahua]

I think for me, it just isn't a traditional ship stall, bc THEY WERE ENGAGED TO BE MARRIED (emphasis aimed at the moronic writers, not PTV commenters). I am a Buffy/Veronica Mars obsessive, so I'm mostly fine with ship stalls. But Buffy wasn't engaged to be married to either Angel or Spike when she moved on to others, and Veronica was never engaged to Logan. Dating others, etc., is just absolutely not going to work for me after very nearly being married.

[Chaser]

LOL - If you don't want to be super frustrated with Arrow, don't rewatch Dark Waters. It's Olicity/Felicity/Oliver at their best. Even with the lie, you watch that episode and you think it won't matter because he will tell her and they will work it out and get married. 

Also, watching the difference in SA in that episode and almost every episode in S5 is jarring. 

[calliope1975]

They should have never walked back the almost married part. And if they had decided to stall through S6, they should have scrapped the fake wedding/real vows. I don't know who's ultimately responsible for this ship stall/death, be it the Show staff, the CW staff, DC staff, SA, etc., but it was a big miscalculation. 

What I do know is if S5 had been S1, I wouldn't have made it halfway through the season before dropping the show. 

[tangerine95]

I honestly think they could have kept a lot of the fandom and the buzz olicity brings even with the break up if they just didn't ignore olicity were about to be married and have been written as the love of each others lives. If they wrote the struggle of being apart, the jealousy, the pining, the angst etc, I think they could have gotten something closer to the season 3 reaction from fans. Instead they went with the least romantic storyline of throwing random boring LIs at them, never letting them talk about their romantic feelings at all and just have them be weirdly polite to each other most of the time.

That's just not how you get anyone who likes romance excited at all. Imo they took the shippers for granted and basically figured that if people loved season 2 olicity back then they'll love them now too. Except after a proposal and huge declarations of love not a lot of fans will be okay with going back to subtle hints and breadcrumbs like in seasons 1 and 2 but I don't think they realized that tbh. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I fundamentally cannot continue believing they are each other's one true loves when they're so chill about it all. I broke up my my fiance years ago and I could barely stand to email with him afterwards bc of all the feelings, and he was an asshole. These two are so unbelievably casual with each other that it makes me kind of sick. One true love is simply not compatible with "meh." Apathy is the true opposite of love, and they have embraced apathy.