Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[rtalive]

On 1/13/2017 at 10:07 PM, statsgirl said:

No doubt he believed he was helping Felicity by going after DD.

But we never got Felicity's POV.  Maybe what she wanted was Oliver to be beside her as she went through her surgeries and listened to all the doctors telling her it was permanent.  Felicity supported Oliver spending his time looking for DD because that was the only choice she was given and she loved him enough to put his needs above hers, even though by any measure hers should have come first at the time.

Which just makes Oliver's BMD lies and disregarding of Felicity's needs all the worse since we just saw her put his needs ahead of hers

Between his selfishness in 4B and the ending of 5x09, they're making it very hard to root for Oliver.

I re-watched the episode 4x10, because of all the discussion how Oliver puts his needs above hers and there were 5 scenes with him in the hospital: two scenes with him and Felicity alone, one with Laurel, one with the mother outside and one in the beginning of the episode.  Just saying. I don't know what exactly people expect to see from that show.

But again even if we put aside my believe that Oliver was actually very supportive and perfect boyfriend to Felicity, more than any guy I know in reality, and the fact that he treated Laurel worse, I will agree that Felicity's story suffers because of his.

The moment they broke up she began to have real story, which was only about her and not about him. So as her fan I am happy she is no longer in relationship with him, not only because it seems he does not treat her well, but because now she will have the chance to develop more as a character.

And I like him alone too, because I am kind of tired of him apologizing and feeling unworthy of someone. I hope he regains his self esteem.

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, rtalive said:

I re-watched the episode 4x10, because of all the discussion how Oliver puts his needs above hers and there were 5 scenes with him in the hospital: two scenes with him and Felicity alone, one with Laurel, one with the mother outside and one in the beginning of the episode.  Just saying. I don't know what exactly people expect to see from that show.

You are missing the point of the discussion. Oliver wasn't there when Felicity got out of surgery. THEA had to get a text and tell him about it. He wasn't there when the second specialist came to see Felicity, and Donna actively scolded him for that. He wasn't there when Felicity was told she might never walk again. It doesn't matter if he was in the hospital corridor a bunch of times if he wasn't emotionally available for Felicity during the worst time of her life. Imo it's actually kinda worse that he went to the hospital and still refused to visit Felicity until the end.

And it's not about what people want from the show, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that this is the show -- but please allow people their disappointment in that this is the story they decided to tell about Felicity getting paralyzed. Instead of focusing on HER, the show decided to focus on Oliver's man pain during Felicity's worst time. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the fact that Oliver wasn't supportive of Felicity in that moment was very well expressed when in their conversation she told him that they haven't exchanged any vows yet and essentially gave him an out. His absence made her think, because of what happened to her, that he didn't want to marry her anymore. 

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like sometimes people look at Oliver's actions towards Felicity during her paralysis and the baby mama drama as if they were dating or even still just good friends. 

They weren't dating. They were, in a very short time going to be MARRIED. Of COURSE a husband should stay with his wife while she finds out whether she'll ever walk again. I don't even see how that's debatable, and I say that as someone who's actively avoided getting married. (And OF COURSE a husband has to tell his wife she's a stepmother, with legal, moral, and financial responsibilities towards her stepkid...whether she knows about the kid or not, btw. The day the BM files for child support is the day Oliver, meaning Felicity, owes millions in child support, including BACK child support.)

It would have been different if, say, DD had something that could have helped and Oliver was trying to track him down, but it was just pure rage and revenge, which doesn't help his near-wife AT ALL.

He wasn't her casual boyfriend...he was very nearly her husband. He should have stayed. 

[dtissagirl]

8 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the fact that Oliver wasn't supportive of Felicity in that moment was very well expressed when in their conversation she told him that they haven't exchanged any vows yet and essentially gave him an out. His absence made her think, because of what happened to her, that he didn't want to marry her anymore. 

Right. As I said before, the story treated Oliver's man pain AS SUCH, and it even made its final narrative beat into that sucker punch moment of Felicity assuming Oliver's absence was a rejection. The story didn't excuse Oliver, which I did like. Trying to find excuses for Oliver here is what I find problematic.

[AyChihuahua]

As an aside, re my least-favorite storyline in history, the BMD: I've seen the idea expressed in some places (not here) that a fiancee has no right to know about a kid, but usually even those commenters agree that an actual legal wife, does. I hope people know there's no grace period. There's no situation in which you're a spouse but you get 90 minutes to learn everything about your new spouse that affects you and can then decide to back out. It's totally binary. One moment you're a fiancee and then you say the vows and you're a wife, and the moment you're a wife you're also a stepmother. 

[statsgirl]

8 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

The day the BM files for child support is the day Oliver, meaning Felicity, owes millions in child support, including BACK child support

I was going to say that Oliver doesn't have money, but of course during the first 6 years of Williams life he did.  So legally out their communal property, which was mostly Felicity's stake in PT, Oliver would have to pay back child support?

The sheer stupidity of the arguments that it was none of Felicity's business and she was a shrew to insist that he tell her astounds me.

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Right. As I said before, the story treated Oliver's man pain AS SUCH, and it even made its final narrative beat into that sucker punch moment of Felicity assuming Oliver's absence was a rejection. The story didn't excuse Oliver, which I did like. Trying to find excuses for Oliver here is what I find problematic.

I agree. I think that's why I was fine with his apology, even if obviously his behavior wasn't great. And why I will never be fine with the BMD.

[AyChihuahua]

That's the thing, it doesn't matter whether Oliver didn't really have much income then, bc Felicity did. In nearly every state, ability to pay child support and the amount is determined by the person's total income, which would include the spouse's. (And it's for the child's benefit, so it doesn't matter that Oliver genuinely didn't know. It's not meant to be a punishment for the absent parent, but for the benefit of the child.)

The exact calculation of back support would be difficult (I mean he did kind of have money during that time bc his family did, but also, legally dead, so have fun calculating that, family court judge), but going forward, for at least nine more years plus in a number of states, college, would be Oliver's AND FELICITY's responsibility, with amount determined by the kid's needs and O/F's joint income. Felicity was a billionaire. When billionaires pay child support, they pay a shitload of child support.

For example: (three kids, not one, but requested $1M/MONTH): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/billionaire-divorce-kenneth-griffin_n_6755104.html

Edited January 16, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[tangerine95]

I think it was shitty of him not to be there and there was no real excuse. No matter how angry and scared he felt, Felicity was feeling worse and clearly wanted him there. I got over it after he apologized and was shown to be there for her after and at least they realized it was something Oliver should feel awful about.

I feel like it was unnecessary tho tbh. Like it didn't really serve any real narrative or character development purpose to have him not be there as much as it was done so they can keep Oliver in the action scenes. But imo if they were already doing this storyline of having Felicity in the hospital all episode and her being paralyzed, they could have kept Oliver out of the fight scenes and in the hospital most of the episode especially since they had 3 other masks on the team. The only relevant fight was the last one with DD when he found out about his family. The rest were him hitting random ghosts anyway. They just did a huge thing by having Felicity so hurt and instead of focusing the episode mostly on the emotional aspect of that, they made it action focused. 

[statsgirl]

I think they could have got round that though by having him visit Felicity and Felicity giving him permission to go out and beat up bad guys because he was no good to her being antsy in the hospital room.

Instead they made a deliberate choice to highlight that he wasn't there in the hospital for her.  Thea had to text him that the surgery was over, Donna had to explain the doctor situation and scold him for not being there for her, and Felicity herself gave him an out for the relationship because she assumed that he didn't want to marry her now that she was broken.

Those aren't accidental, they're not only deliberately showing that he's not there, they're also having the characters tell us.  To what end?  Not to show that Felicity was right to break off the engagement because in show and in interviews, the line was that Oliver didn't have a choice about telling her (even though yes, he did).  Is it to show that he's still not ready in s4 to be in a whole relationship?  Will they address this down the road when he finally is?

Edited January 16, 2017 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Those aren't accidental, they're not only deliberately showing that he's not there, they're also having the characters tell us.  To what end?  Not so show that Felicity was right to break off the engagement because in show and in interviews, the line was that Oliver didn't have a choice about telling her (even though yes, he did).  Is it to show that he's still not ready in s4 to be in a whole relationship?  Will they address this down the road when he finally is?

I think that's a great question, but I also think it's entirely possible that the answer is: because they thought it'd be "cool," or, as tangerine said, bc they wanted Oliver in the fight scenes. I'll be genuinely shocked if it's ever addressed.

IMO such a mistake to have two overlapping "Oliver's a self-centered douche" storylines. I would have probably been a bit more bummed about the BMD breakup if I hadn't still been steaming about the hospital abandonment.

Edited January 16, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[GirlvsTV]

I have never felt the same way about Oliver after he ditched Felicity in the hospital. It was such a truly foul, selfish act that I can't forget about it and, unfortunately, the selfishness continues to be reinforced by his behavior in the rest of 4b and 5a.

Oliver ended that episode apologizing for his behavior, but the show basically hand-waved his terrible treatment of Felicity by having her immediately forgive him. He didn't suffer any consequences for leaving his fiancée when she needed him the most, in fact the person most affected by his selfishness was Felicity. On top of going through multiple surgeries and finding out she was paralyzed - she was also thinking the man she loved and had just agreed to marry didn't want her anymore. 

[insomniadreams88]

25 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

As an aside, re my least-favorite storyline in history, the BMD: I've seen the idea expressed in some places (not here) that a fiancee has no right to know about a kid, but usually even those commenters agree that an actual legal wife, does. I hope people know there's no grace period. There's no situation in which you're a spouse but you get 90 minutes to learn everything about your new spouse that affects you and can then decide to back out. It's totally binary. One moment you're a fiancee and then you say the vows and you're a wife, and the moment you're a wife you're also a stepmother. 

Maybe it could have been part of his vows - "I vow to love and cherish you - and by the way, I have a son I've been visiting for the past X months."

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I think that's a great question, but I also think it's entirely possible that the answer is: because they thought it'd be "cool," or, as tangerine said, bc they wanted Oliver in the fight scenes. I'll be genuinely shocked if it's ever addressed.

Yep. Wasn't there a complaint about Oliver and fighting from last season? They probably thought they'd solve it with 410 - not realizing that they "solved" it by making him look awful for not being by his fiancee's side.

And think about the scene before Felicity's going in for another surgery - when Laurel and Diggle (with flowers that I'm still not even sure were from Oliver) joined Thea and Donna in her room. Donna has no idea why her future son-in-law isn't there. It just looks like he doesn't care. Oliver could have been there. There's no reason he couldn't have taken five minutes from beating up ghosts and getting nowhere with them to check in with Felicity. Besides, didn't we mostly see Oliver suited up as GA at night? He was in the bunker and stopping by Lance's office when he wasn't hitting the streets. Really, no time to stop by the hospital? 

[catrox14]

 the time line was wonky in the episode

. IMO It was implied Felicity had at least two surgeries maybe more. He was there for her first surgery. Some time must have gone by between her first surgery and the one in Blood Debts when he continued with the mission to take down Darkh. Was he more motivated after Felicity's shooting? Of course,  but it was not solely personal vengeance.

The surgery was going to be hours long. No one demanded that Oliver stay and wait, and Darkh was still a threat to the city.  I think Oliver was guilty of being in denial about Felicity 's health/believed she should get better.

All of team Arrow was trying to ferret out Darkh. Thea was literally with Oliver and Laurel confronting Anarky when Thea got the text and told Oliver to go. And he left immediately. Mama Smoak was at the hospital with Felicity.  No one thought Oliver was being an asshole for not being there for the 2nd surgery. Donna was upset because of  the diagnosis /prognosis  was for the worse. No one thought Felicity would remain permanently paralyzed before she went into that surgery.

Was Felicity lying or being noble about Oliver in that situation? I don't think she was. I think she believed that there was no point in him being there when the city was still in danger. She told Thea it was okay since he was trying to find Darkh.

[HighHopes]

The thing is, not only did Oliver not visit Felicity/be there for her, she also didn't have her ring. So Oliver is off man!paining and Felicity is in the hospital worrying that her fiance no longer wants to be with her. He kept her ring and didn't visit her. The very least he could have done if he couldn't be there for ~reasons~ was to make sure she had her ring. But he couldn't even do that. 

Imagine waking up in the hospital after getting engaged. Your fiance is nowhere to be seen, and doesn't visit you. You go through multiple surgeries and have specialist doctors come and visit, and still no fiance. And you also don't have your ring to remind you that you are engaged and that your fiance does care. He pretty much abandoned her emotionally and physically. 

Also I will forever hate Oliver for not cancelling the venue (also for allowing Felicity to pack up his shit for him when he moved out of the loft) That whole fake wedding was some straight up emotional manipulation on his part. He had one task of cancelling the venue and couldn't even do that. So he makes his former fiancee wear her very real wedding dress, in their very real venue, while he says his very real vows. Probably in hope that he could change her mind and they would get back together. It was just gross. Felicity said cancel the venue, and that she didn't want to do this fake!wedding thing. But nope. Doesn't matter, because she was still made to do it by her team. (What kind of team makes someone do that? So yeah I blame Thea and Digg for that too actually).  

Edited January 16, 2017 by HighHopes

[statsgirl]

I blame Thea also for telling Oliver he was right to lie about William to Felicity and Diggle for talking to Oliver about William without telling him to go to Felicity and work it out with her.  Diggle's on his second marriage -- he should know this stuff by now.

The whole forcing of Felicity into a fake wedding was indeed gross,  Did the writers think that the audience would accept it in lieu of an actual wedding?  It just made Oliver look 1000x worse.  That, the wedding, was what made Felicity walk away not only from the engagement but from working with Oliver at all.

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO It was implied Felicity had at least two surgeries maybe more. He was there for her first surgery.

Was he there for the first surgery?  I thought after taking her to the  hospital, he stayed long enough to know that she was going to live, and then went out to hunt DD and didn't return until the end.  But even if he was there for her first surgery, the time he really should have been there for her was when the specialists were examining her and telling her the news about whether she would walk again or not. If there's ever a time you need the people you love beside you, it's when you're getting bad medical news.  I've been in a situation like that and even though I went into it thinking I could handle it on my own, it turns out I really could have used the support of my loved one beside me.

I still think Oliver could have been there at times for Felicity, and out fighting at night or when they were waiting for the next doctor. There was no need to make it so clear that he wasn't there for her at all.

The one thing I will give them is that he took the ring home.  Things get stolen in hospitals -- you don't want to leave a ring like that on her finger much less in the bedside table when she goes for surgery or tests.

It would have been a nice gesture though if Oliver had taken the ring home but tied a ribbon around Felicity's ring finger as a place saver.

Edited January 16, 2017 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

Where is this idea that Oliver didn't visit Felicity at all coming from? He was there at least 3 times during Blood Debts alone.

The episode picks up with Oliver with Felicity in the emergency room. Flashes to Oliver trying to find Darkh. Laurel wore the same outfit throughout the episode so either it was all in one day or maybe two or Laurel wears the same outfit for days on end.

As to the ring. Oliver said the ring was removed before the surgery and he held onto it for what maybe a week? I don't get why that was an egregious act?

[Midnight Lullaby]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 the time line was wonky in the episode

. IMO It was implied Felicity had at least two surgeries maybe more. He was there for her first surgery. Some time must have gone by between her first surgery and the one in Blood Debts when he continued with the mission to take down Darkh. Was he more motivated after Felicity's shooting? Of course,  but it was not solely personal vengeance.

The surgery was going to be hours long. No one demanded that Oliver stay and wait, and Darkh was still a threat to the city.  I think Oliver was guilty of being in denial about Felicity 's health/believed she should get better.

All of team Arrow was trying to ferret out Darkh. Thea was literally with Oliver and Laurel confronting Anarky when Thea got the text and told Oliver to go. And he left immediately. Mama Smoak was at the hospital with Felicity.  No one thought Oliver was being an asshole for not being there for the 2nd surgery. Donna was upset because of  the diagnosis /prognosis  was for the worse. No one thought Felicity would remain permanently paralyzed before she went into that surgery.

Was Felicity lying or being noble about Oliver in that situation? I don't think she was. I think she believed that there was no point in him being there when the city was still in danger. She told Thea it was okay since he was trying to find Darkh.

They didn't tell us if he went to see her at the hospital after he brought her there. There's only a scene where the team tells him they can see Felicity before she goes in for another surgery if they hurry and he tells them he has to keep looking for Darhk or he might disappear, and the others go to see Felicity and Thea makes a comment about how Oliver should have been there. Also in the convo between Oliver and Felicity towards the end he tells her he didn't want to come to see her until Darhk was off the board so it's debatable if he went to see her at all before that moment.

The problem isn't so much that but that even after Donna tells him Felicity is never going to walk again he doesn't go to see her but goes to do other GA stuff. The team has to insist he goes and he was still saying no because he had to look for Darhk.

I think Felicity downplays her importance in some situations like this one or when she kept saying her problem with her dad wasn't that important because of what Thea was going through but she even thought Oliver didn't want her anymore so I don't think she was fine about the situation and about him not being there. If she was okay about it like she told Thea then she wouldn't have thought he didn't want her anymore, she wouldn't have had the doubt.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Cleanqueen]

45 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Also I will forever hate Oliver for not cancelling the venue (also for allowing Felicity to pack up his shit for him when he moved out of the loft) That whole fake wedding was some straight up emotional manipulation on his part. He had one task of cancelling the venue and couldn't even do that. So he makes his former fiancee wear her very real wedding dress, in their very real venue, while he says his very real vows. Probably in hope that he could change her mind and they would get back together. It was just gross. Felicity said cancel the venue, and that she didn't want to do this fake!wedding thing. But nope. Doesn't matter, because she was still made to do it by her team. (What kind of team makes someone do that? So yeah I blame Thea and Digg for that too actually).  

I didn't see the whole not canceling the venue thing as egregious, I can see why Oliver forgot about it or that in the back of his mind he still thought she would change her mind about it. Oliver has never suffered someone walking out on him and probably like his past relationships he thought it was something that could easily be fixed, what he didn't realize was that 1) felicity wasn't going to forgive him easily like other women had 2) The magnitude of what he did wasn't that small. Thats why by the time he says his vows he understands that Felicity isn't just mad but somewhat angry at him.

And also about the moving thing, I think the actors both thought Felicity was the one moving out and not Oliver and it's how most of the audience understood it.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think Felicity downplays her importance in some situations like this one or when she kept saying her problem with her dad wasn't that important because of what Thea was going through but she even thought Oliver didn't want her anymore so I don't think she was fine about the situation and about him not being there. If she was okay about it like she told Thea then she wouldn't have thought he didn't want her anymore, she wouldn't have had the doubt.

I think this is an ongoing problem on Arrow with Felicity. You could argue the same thing about 416 and the fake wedding - they need to bait Cupid, so Felicity has to go through with a fake wedding to the man she thought she was going to marry and Thea and Diggle see no problem with it and the team just decides that's okay in, what, barely a minute's time? 

You could even say that what we see in 509 is because of that - the team's surrounding Oliver while she's off to the side, sort of getting some comfort from Thea and then alone. Sure, we've seen that Felicity grieves alone, but it wouldn't be a stretch if the reason for that turned out to be because she feels like she has to grieve alone, that there's something else more important always going on. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

They didn't tell us if he went to see her at the hospital after he brought her there. There's only a scene where the team tells him they can see Felicity before she goes in for another surgery if they hurry and he tells them he has to keep looking for Darhk or he might disappear, and the others go to see Felicity and Thea makes a comment about how Oliver should have been there. Also in the convo between Oliver and Felicity towards the end he tells her he didn't want to come to see her until Darhk was off the board so it's debatable if he went to see her at all before that moment.

There was no clear indicator as to how  much time passed between the ER room  and the "another"  surgery. He was shown in the ER with her and he had to have been there long enough to get the ring.  So unless one thinks he stayed only long enough to get the ring and then left and never came back until got the end of the 2nd surgery, which I am disinclined to think was the case.

Edited January 16, 2017 by catrox14

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

There was no clear indicator as to how  much time passed between the ER room  and the "another"  surgery. He was shown in the ER with her and he had to have been there long enough to get the ring.  So unless one thinks he stayed only long enough to get the ring and then left and never came back until got the end of the 2nd surgery, which I am disinclined to think was the case.

He could have stayed until they told them Felicity wasn't in danger of dying anymore and left. That's the option that makes more sense to me all things considered. Because the line "I didn't want to come to see you until Darhk was off the board." seems an explanation of why he hasn't been there and if they talked after she woke up after the first surgery he would have told her that.

[catrox14]

I think Oliver was there for the entire first emergency in, using the 1st surgery which had to have been removing the bullets etc. . Then once Felicity was out of immediate danger and stable, he went off on his mission which are the scenes we saw of him before he got the word on her other surgery. I guess it's just easier to always think the absolute worst of Oliver now than to fact in shitty writing and bad plotting and pacing of an episode.

There is no way I will ever belive Oliver left Felicity's side during the emergency, which probably lasted at least 24 hours.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yes, that's the same take I have on how the episode went. You say it's easy to think the worst of him and it's funny to me because it never even occurred to me that he might have left when he didn't know if she was going to live or die. Like in 509 it didn't even occur to me that he might have lied about how Billy died. I took both things for granted so I evidently don't think the worst.

That doesn't mean it's not shitty to let the person you love alone in her time of need and not let her know that you are there for her. If he was so busy with Darhk, and he wasn't since the rest of the team visited her and helped him as well, he could have given her a call. I think he was avoiding to deal with his emotions about what happened to Felicity beating up the ghosts and that was selfish. He was in pain because someone he loved got hurt but he should have put that aside and think about the person that got hurt, who was the real victim of the situation.

[statsgirl]

They would have taken the ring off as they were prepping her for surgery because metal can cause sparks or mess up the monitoring equipment.  They would also have taken off her nail polish.  (@kismet, where are you?)

Oliver wouldn't have been allowed to be with Felicity during the surgery and in the recovery room.(Why do you think it would have lasted 24 hours?  I was thinking that they would have dealt with the immediate problems and then waited for the swelling to go down and see how she was doing, and then go back in for the subsequent surgeries in a few days.)  I can see him waiting in the waiting room until he heard that she was out of danger, and then he left.  But the question is whether he went back afterwards to see her before any subsequent surgeries or to be with her when she heard what the doctors had to say, and there isn't any indication that he did. In fact, every time he had a chance to or was told to go to her, he said  he couldn't because he had to go after DD.

27 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

You could even say that what we see in 509 is because of that - the team's surrounding Oliver while she's off to the side, sort of getting some comfort from Thea and then alone. Sure, we've seen that Felicity grieves alone, but it wouldn't be a stretch if the reason for that turned out to be because she feels like she has to grieve alone, that there's something else more important always going on. 

I really want to see that addressed on the show. I doubt it will be because it's always about Oliver and the masks, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of Felicity's actions.

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I think it was shitty of him not to be there and there was no real excuse. No matter how angry and scared he felt, Felicity was feeling worse and clearly wanted him there. I got over it after he apologized and was shown to be there for her after and at least they realized it was something Oliver should feel awful about.

I feel like it was unnecessary tho tbh. Like it didn't really serve any real narrative or character development purpose to have him not be there as much as it was done so they can keep Oliver in the action scenes. But imo if they were already doing this storyline of having Felicity in the hospital all episode and her being paralyzed, they could have kept Oliver out of the fight scenes and in the hospital most of the episode especially since they had 3 other masks on the team. The only relevant fight was the last one with DD when he found out about his family. The rest were him hitting random ghosts anyway. They just did a huge thing by having Felicity so hurt and instead of focusing the episode mostly on the emotional aspect of that, they made it action focused. 

I think it would have worked if the Baby Mama Drama weren't already making everything a garbage fire. No BMD and Oliver acts like a manchild when Felicity is in the hospital makes sense, and her forgiveness at the end makes for great shippy fodder for them. But there's no fucking way to disconnect Oliver from the BMD during EVERYTHING that happened between 408 and 415. It's there in the background turning him into the dumbest moron of all time. And that line about going to CC makes him look callous during Felicity's hospital stay/paralyzis storyline. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I really want to see that addressed on the show. I doubt it will be because it's always about Oliver and the masks, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of Felicity's actions.

Me too. (Please let that happen in 5B.) But I think that pistachio line from Donna may be the closest we get to addressing Felicity's feelings. 

[catrox14]

ETA : There has to be a  time jump of at least one day between the ERand the other surgery. Oliver did say that he didn't want to come back until he took down Darkh which IMO there is either a missing convo between Oliver and Felicity OR Oliver felt Felicity was stable enough a d that she would understand his mission,  which IMO is supported by her saying it was okay and then later saying they can't go to Bali as long as Darkh was still out there. And that does match IMO with the Felicity that puts mission over personal. I also think they both were in some denial/not ready /trying to beleve Felicity would be okay so him not being there for the other surgery was a poor attempt by the writers to create angst. YMMV

[AyChihuahua]

Her own fiance couldn't put aside his emotions long enough to be there, physically standing next to her holding her hand, when she literally finds out whether she'll ever walk again. It's nice that Felicity forgave him, but that doesn't mean I have to.

[statsgirl]

Being a pistachio is no excuse for the guy you're engaged to, who says you're the love of his life, not trying to get through JIMO.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There has to be a  time jump of at least one day between the ERand the other surgery. Oliver did say that he didn't want to come back until he took down Darkh which IMO there is either a missing convo between Oliver and Felicity OR Oliver felt Felicity was stable enough a d that she would understand his mission,

The problem for me is that Felicity didn't need him to be there during her first surgery -- she was unconscious.  She needed him to be there when she work up and found herself paralyzed, or when she was scheduled for the second surgery and was lying there terrified that Oliver wanted to dump her, or when the big specialist came and did the last surgery on her and then told her that she would be paralyzed for the rest of her life.  That's when Felicity needed Oliver to be there, and from what Donna and the other said, he wasn't.

Oliver isn't perfect.  In this case it looks like he was so wracked with guilt (?) at what happened to Felicity that he couldn't bring himself to visit her.  Felicity was strong enough for the both of them when she said he could break the engagement if he wanted to but that doesn't mean she didn't want him at her side in the hospital or that this is a relationship I should root for..

6 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

And that line about going to CC makes him look callous during Felicity's hospital stay/paralyzis storyline. 

Was he going to CC while she was in the hospital? Because that is just the worst, that he makes time to go and see William in another city but can't find the time to go and see his fiance who is lying scared and paralyzed in the hospital.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

 I'm saying I think that Oliver was there at least 24 hrs given Felicity was shot multiple times.  I'm not saying the surgery lasted 24 hours. I'm saying the entire time of the shooting to Felicity's surgery to recovery for  him to think shenwas stable enough for him to go.

Also, IMHO,  that's also how Oliver copes. He puts himself into action especially when he believed that had he  killed Darkh in the first place Felicity would never have almost been killed, so IMO he needed to make that right.

[HighHopes]

Oh I know about not having metals/valuables in the hospital (I have semi-regular MRIs, so I get that), especially when having multiple surgeries. My comment about the ring was more about Felicity waking up in a hospital after getting engaged, and not having the ring or her fiance. She said it herself, she felt that Oliver no longer wanted to be with her ("The doctors said it's permanent, maybe the real reason you haven't been here..."). 

Also, this is the first O/F scene of the episode where Oliver tells her "he's sorry he didn't come by sooner"...which what an odd way to phrase that. (Felicity also didn't know where Oliver was). 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Her own fiance couldn't put aside his emotions long enough to be there, physically standing next to her holding her hand, when she literally finds out whether she'll ever walk again. It's nice that Felicity forgave him, but that doesn't mean I have to.

I'm not saying anyone has to. I'm just offering my viewpoint

[insomniadreams88]

23 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Was he going to CC while she was in the hospital? Because that is just the worst, that he makes time to go and see William in another city but can't find the time to go and see his fiance who is lying scared and paralyzed in the hospital.

See, that's the problem with the BMD storyline. We have no idea when he went to CC because all we got was that one line in 412. It was never addressed. I'd like to say there's no way that he went to CC while she was in the hospital, but it doesn't look much better that he went to CC when she got home from the hospital and was adjusting to life in a wheelchair either and he had to if he was making trips to CC considering the timeline. Unless he made all those trips between 408 and 409, but where would he have had the time for that? 

Edited January 17, 2017 by insomniadreams88
she not he

[dtissagirl]

I think it's extremely shitty writing that you can either imply that Oliver was in the hospital for awhile -- at least until he got the ring FOR CERTAIN, but maybe at least until Felicity was out of the first surgery -- but you can also imply he bailed as soon as he got the ring and didn't go back to visit until the end of the episode. That should have been made clear. But they also implied that he did NOT see Felicity even after the first surgery, so he just heard from someone that she was OK and went out to punch people. It's shitty writing because this isn't the kind of think you want unclear, but the fact that everyone was telling him to go visit Felicity, and that by the end she thought he was rethinking the proposal does tell me the implication is that Oliver was doing something shitty. That he apologized for, and Felicity accepted, end dramatic beat. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

Was he going to CC while she was in the hospital? Because that is just the worst, that he makes time to go and see William in another city but can't find the time to go and see his fiance who is lying scared and paralyzed in the hospital.

I think it was pretty clear in the episode the only thing Oliver was doing before going to see her towards the end was beating up people. He went back and forth to CC when she was adjusting to a life on a wheelchair which is horrible and makes me want to write an angry tweet to MG still today LOL.

Another problem with leaving Felicity alone at the hospital is that when it happened to Thea the year before he didn't leave the hospital and didn't go looking for Ra's. Or when Laurel was in the hospital he stayed there, he didn't go beat up ghosts to find out where Darhk was and in both situations we could make the argument the city was in danger and if beating up people is how Oliver copes he would have done that in those two occasions as well.

[AyChihuahua]

He also managed to be with nearly everyone else when they were in the hospital. Thea in S1, Laurel in S2, Thea again in S3, Thea AGAIN in S4, Laurel in S4. 

[statsgirl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, IMHO,  that's also how Oliver copes. He puts himself into action especially when he believed that had he  killed Darkh in the first place Felicity would never have almost been killed, so IMO he needed to make that right.

I agree.  That's how he copes, that's how he makes himself feel better.  I just think that if there was ever a time to put what Felicity needed ahead of what he wanted, this was it.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Was he going to CC while she was in the hospital? Because that is just the worst, that he makes time to go and see William in another city but can't find the time to go and see his fiance who is lying scared and paralyzed in the hospital

Wait,  what? Where is that coming from? If that is what some viewers think

 the time frame of Blood Debts does not support Oliver leaving Star City. His whereabouts were known by Team Arrow. As I mentioned before Laurel,  Donna andi think Thea wore the same outfits throughout the episode. So the question is the time between ER and surgery in Blood Debts. If it was a week at most I doubt he did that. He was spending that time tracking down Darkh.

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Another problem with leaving Felicity alone at the hospital is that when it happened to Thea the year before he didn't leave the hospital and didn't go looking for Ra's. Or when Laurel was in the hospital he stayed there, he didn't go beat up ghosts to find out where Darhk was and in both situations we could make the argument the city was in danger and if beating up people is how Oliver copes he would have done that in those two occasions as well.

I wonder [fear] that contrast of only with Felicity he goes out to beat people up in ~Revenge!!!111eleven!1!1!~ is supposed to make us think this is ~romantic, that only Felicity makes Oliver lose control like that or something. Which: ew, gross.

[HighHopes]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait,  what? Where is that coming from? If that is what some viewers think

 the time frame of Blood Debts does not support Oliver leaving Star City. His whereabouts were known by Team Arrow. As I mentioned before Laurel,  Donna andi think Thea wore the same outfits throughout the episode. So the question is the time between ER and surgery in Blood Debts. If it was a week at most I doubt he did that. He was spending that time tracking down Darkh.

Oliver said in 4x10 (?) that "between the trips back and forth to Central City..." he didn't have time for/couldn't do something? I can't remember what he was referring to, but he mentioned "trips to CC". Implying more than one. I know some people assumed he was talking about the crossover trip to CC but that was only one trip. 

Edited January 16, 2017 by HighHopes
because last season was season four and not five.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I agree.  That's how he copes, that's how he makes himself feel better.  I just think that if there was ever a time to put what Felicity needed ahead of what he wanted, this was it.

Yeah, but also think of this: Before he did finally go to see Felicity, Thea told him that she needed him and he needed her. So it was partly about Oliver, especially when you consider that they addressed how Oliver was feeling and what he was doing before talking about Felicity's diagnosis and why she thought he hadn't been there. 

In 410, it seemed like they just needed Oliver to be beating up ghosts and not in the hospital. They wanted Oliver part of the action scenes but wanted to hit a couple of emotional beats, so they had people tell him he should be with Felicity and the two scenes of him with her. 

1 minute ago, HighHopes said:

Oliver said in 5x10 (?) that "between the trips back and forth to Central City..." he didn't have time for/couldn't do something? I can't remember what he was referring to, but he mentioned "trips to CC". Implying more than one. I know some people assumed he was talking about the crossover trip to CC but that was only one trip. 

It was in 412 when Thea was dying. It wouldn't have made sense to be talking about the crossover because Thea was with them for the crossover. How would it have mattered if he was in Star City then to notice something about her if she wasn't? 

[Starfish35]

I don't think that was in 4.10.  It was in the Arrowcave and Felicity was sitting right there (which made me wonder what excuse he was giving her for these trips) so it was after she got out of the hospital and had rejoined the team.

ETA: @insomniadreams88 beat me to it.  I wanted to say 4.12 but wasn't absolutely certain. :)

Edited January 16, 2017 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to think that his pursuit of DD while Felicity was in the hospital was The. Most. Romantic. Thing. Ever.

But like with many of the assumptions this show makes, it falls apart as soon as you look at it closely.  Like the trips to CC, which were probably put in there to remind us of the existence of William prior to his big episode but really just showed how Oliver had more important things to do than take care of his newly paralyzed fiance.

ETA:

Quote

 It was in the Arrowcave and Felicity was sitting right there (which made me wonder what excuse he was giving her for these trips)

Good question.  And how come she didn't catch on to the lies?

Edited January 16, 2017 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I agree.  That's how he copes, that's how he makes himself feel better.  I just think that if there was ever a time to put what Felicity needed ahead of what he wanted, this was it.

Felicity

 

Just now, HighHopes said:

Oliver said in 5x10 (?) that "between the trips back and forth to Central City..." he didn't have time for/couldn't do something? I can't remember what he was referring to, but he mentioned "trips to CC". Implying more than one. I know some people assumed he was talking about the crossover trip to CC but that was only one trip. 

I know. . But that doesn't apply to the events immediately following Felicity being shot. He was in star city the entire time. Trying to retcon Oliver going to CC as during the events of Felicity's life threatening injuries seems like an overly harsh interpretation of Oliver in S4.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Oliver said in 5x10 (?) that "between the trips back and forth to Central City..." he didn't have time for/couldn't do something? I can't remember what he was referring to, but he mentioned "trips to CC". Implying more than one. I know some people assumed he was talking about the crossover trip to CC but that was only one trip. 

It was about realizing Thea was having bloodlust issues. He'd been "back-and-forth" to CC enough that he failed to notice his sister was having bloodlust problems, which definitely means more than once, esp. since that once was WITH Thea, several weeks at least prior.

I personally don't really think he was visiting Dumb Li'l Willy in 410. My guess is he started while she was in rehab (bc she would have had to go to rehab after actual hospitalization to learn how to use the wheelchair, toilet herself, etc.).

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I wonder [fear] that contrast of only with Felicity he goes out to beat people up in ~Revenge!!!111eleven!1!1!~ is supposed to make us think this is ~romantic, that only Felicity makes Oliver lose control like that or something. Which: ew, gross.

It wouldn't surprise me if they do see it as romantic. I think we actual saw a bit of this when Felicity asked him about losing it and he just looked ashamed. 

I don't know if I would compare it to Thea because Thea was mostly dead and the timeline wasn't explained well enough with Felicity. With Laurel, he had to be there for her deathbed confession. 

Mostly, I don't believe they are trying to set a pattern with Olivers behavior. It's whatever they want to write at that moment.

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

It was in the Arrowcave and Felicity was sitting right there (which made me wonder what excuse he was giving her for these trips)

I try really hard not to think about that because it can't be anything good. 

[AyChihuahua]

5 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I try really hard not to think about that because it can't be anything good.