Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Guest]

Which makes what he did to Tommy and Laurel worse, not better.  But I think it comes down to dtissagirl's assessment - please fandom please forget that guy existed and just move on to love sick Oliver who adores Felicity and go with it already!

 

Well, I don't deny that Oliver was a dick but he was also suffering with PTSD and combined with his vigilante life, that led him to make some questionable choices. And I don't deny that what he did to Tommy was horrible (especially when he told her to go after Laurel and then went after him herself, yuck Oliver!!) but Laurel made her own choices too. I don't believe Oliver did everything to her and she just went along with it. She kissed him back. She chose to sleep with him. She didn't turn him down. Literally the whole season she went back and forth over whether she liked him or hated him. She should have just made up her damn mind already tbh.

 

And I don't really forget that that Oliver ever existed, personally speaking. I can see how he evolved from that person. I don't want to forget it either (sister swapping aside) because it shows me how far he's come and how truly in love with Felicity he really is. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

One of the things that I appreciate that the show did was that both Oliver and Laurel paid a price for their hook-up in season 1 and their betrayal of Tommy.

 

Oliver lost his best friend and lost him knowing that Tommy had rejected him because he thought so badly of Oliver.  He took a look at himself through Tommy's eyes, despised what he had done, and ran away. When Diggle and Felicity dragged him back, Oliver vowed not to kill again.

 

Laurel paid a greater price (as she should have because IMO hers was the greater betrayal):  she lost the man who loved her truly and selflessly.  In real life, when we lose someone like that, we may never find that kind of love again. 

 

An interesting things was that losing Tommy made Oliver more self-aware.  He looked at what he was doing, the choices he had made, and he realized how he was hurting other people with them. He grew up from Tommy's death.

 

Laurel showed little self-aware.  She blamed The Hood for failing to save Tommy (huh?) instead of looking at her choices, that she had betrayed Tommy before he died, and that  Tommy wouldn't have even been in the Glades if not for her.  When she was drunk she hit on Oliver again.  There was a moment later in s2 when she acknowledged that she did bear some blame for Tommy's death but it was fleeting.

 

For all that Laurel was supposed to be the focused one, it was only with Sara's death that she got a purpose and that was because she borrowed Sara's.

Or Oliver of season two who slept with Laurel's sister again (after telling her he was going to make up all the wrongs he did to her) rather than encouraging Sara to mend her relationship with Laurel and not reopening a can of worms that would do no one any good (and I liked Sara and Oliver together - doesn't mean that I think the relationship was a good idea in the big picture)..

Sara tried, and then Laurel threw her glass of wine and kicked Sara out.  This was after Sara was willing to die to protect her mother and sister.  So as far as I see it, at that point Sara didn't owe Laurel anything wrt Oliver other than not taking him to the family dinner.

 

At that point, Oliver and Laurel had agreed that there was going to be no relationship other than friendship between them so I don't see any reason why Oliver shouldn't be sleeping with Sara.

 

You guys make me wanna rewatch season 1 and 2. For some reason I always had the impression (in season 1) that Oliver had settled down with Laurel. But then she moved too fast for him and he decided to make their relationship go 'splodey by hooking up with Sara. It was the only reasonable way (at the time) that I could understand Laurel staying with him.

It's an interesting question -- did he deliberately want it to go 'splodey, or was he just thinking of his own pleasure in taking a hot and willing blonde on the boat trip before the penance of moving in with Laurel?

 

My problem with s3 Oliver and the way he treated Felicity is that he told her that they couldn't be together after deciding unilaterally (the first of many such decisions), and then he couldn't let her go.  He didn't stop telling her how he felt "and you know how I feel about her", he told her he loved her and then told her he was working with MM, he wouldn't talk things over with her while he did with Diggle -- it's enough to give a girl a neurosis which explains why she gratefully slept with Ray who listened to her and took her advice.

 

I guess from his point of view he though he couldn't have her and yet he couldn't bear to let her go entirely so it's somewhat understandable but it was very unfair to Felicity who was willing to take whatever risk was required to be with him.  Even in 3x09, she told Ray that someone (Oliver) regretted kissing her so Oliver's push/pull manner was confusing her all season.

[apinknightmare]

My problem with s3 Oliver and the way he treated Felicity is that he told her that they couldn't be together after deciding unilaterally (the first of many such decisions)

I don't get the issue with this. Two people need to be willing to enter into a relationship, and if one of them isn't ready or willing, it is absolutely okay for them to say so and put a stop to it. Another person doesn't get to have a say in what I am or am not ready for, no matter how I might feel about them.

Oliver wasn't wrong for breaking things off if his heart wasn't truly in it. He was wrong for a lot of other things, like dangling those maybes and continuing to remind her how he felt about her when he was unwilling to do something about it (and all the other idiocy he engaged in), but he wasn't wrong for calling it off if he didn't feel like he was able to follow through.

Edited November 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

I agree that Oliver had every right to decide he couldn't be with Felicity in season three, but as you say, hot damn, stop telling the poor girl how much you love her then!

 

statsgirl - I actually really liked Oliver and Sara together and Laurel was being so horrible in season two, it was hard to feel bad for her.  But in hindsight - and since the show was always going to take it back to Felicity - I don't feel like O/S was necessary to "kill" L/O.   I really think Tommy should have been enough to do that. In anything that resembles real life, both Laurel and Oliver should have felt bad enough about Tommy's death to never look at other again. So with that in mind, I think it would have been so much better if Oliver hadn't hooked up with Sara and had just made it his mission to restore their relationship.  That would have been dramatic in a different way and might have been fun to watch Oliver and Sara "save" Laurel instead of the crap we got.  It would have had even more dramatic resonance if Slade had messed with Laurel about Oliver and the island and Sara/Shado.  And then Laurel could have found out more about what they went through and understood them both better.

 

Oh well, could of, should of, and all that. 

 

I will say that I enjoyed Oliver and Sara together more when I thought SHE was the BC of the story.  I had no idea BC's real name was Dinah Laurel.....so I never made the connection.  Once I realized they always intended to make Laurel BC - I look back at season two and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

[hogwash]

I will say that I enjoyed Oliver and Sara together more when I thought SHE was the BC of the story.  I had no idea BC's real name was Dinah Laurel.....so I never made the connection.  Once I realized they always intended to make Laurel BC - I look back at season two and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

 

Don't we all? 

[kismet]

I didn't want Tommy to go evil, but I would have liked to have had him stick around for the fallout of evil!Dad and suprise!Sister. Forever bitter I didn't get to see that play out, and while probably not fair, I'm going to blame Laurel for that as well. We could have had it all................

Keeping Tommy would have spared me from having to watch Chicago Med, which 2 episodes in is a personal struggle for me.

 

I do not think I would have wanted Tommy to go evil… I’m not sure that would have been as enjoyable. But I do wonder with the Thea twist as MM’s daughter, if she could have become the Dark Archer. It could have been an interesting thing to watch OQ have to go against his own sister.

 

Either way, whatever they would have done ~ part of me will always think that we got the short end of the stick when they decided to kill Tommy over LL, as well as Sara over LL. Now with this upcoming death, I feel it’s going to be the same thing. We will get the short end of the stick because they will keep LL over everyone else “Because Comics”. When really her relationships offer nothing to the show and her role is pretty unnecessary. The only LL relationship that is worth anything is her one with QL. And they ruined that in s3, should they kill him in s4 – I really don’t know what relationships or purpose LL has on the show anymore.

[statsgirl]

Oliver/Sara in s2 I can understand on an emotional level much better than Oliver/Laurel in s1  It was two equals who had feelings for each other, who couldn't be with the one they had romantic feelings for, who had unfinished business from six years earlier.  It was healing for both of them.  Sadly, I got the feeling that for Oliver it was something in the moment while Sara wanted more.

In season 1, while Oliver held on to the picture as a totem, he knew he couldn't be with Laurel and he seemed happy for his friends when Tommy was in a relationship with her.  I believe him when he said that he couldn't say he didn't have feelings for her her any more (which is not the same as being in love with her at the time), and as soon as Laurel heard that, she dropped Tommy like a hot potato.

 

 

Two people need to be willing to enter into a relationship, and if one of them isn't ready or willing, it is absolutely okay for them to say so and put a stop to it. Another person doesn't get to have a say in what I am or am not ready for, no matter how I might feel about them.

Oliver wasn't wrong for breaking things off if his heart wasn't truly in it.

Something we learned through s3, his heart definitely was in it ("Don't ask me to say I don't love you"; "If it's you asking, I'll do it"; [the other thing]"I love you").  It was his pea brain that couldn't see it.

 

For me, when Oliver opened up to Felicity at the dinner and talked about how she was the first person he saw as not a threat and maybe he was wrong about not letting anyone into his life, they were in a relationship. It wasn't an official dating relationship but when what two people do affects each other, it's a relationship.

 

Oliver said he wasn't able to be in a relationship with Felicity but weren't a number of his actions still governed by how they affected each other?  He pushed her away, not just romantically but also closed himself off from their normal interactions (e.g. Felicity makes a joke at the start of Corto Maltese and Oliver shuts her down stone-faced).  He stopped talking to her in their normal Arrow interactions and even more, he shut her out of deliberations with Diggle after he got back from the mountain.  He trashed the table after he saw Ray kissing her.    When he told her he didn't want to have this discussion yet again, we all went huh?  Turns out that he had been having the dream every night where she asks him not to go to fight Ra's.  Every night.   He was with and talking to his fantasy Felicity, and his subconscious couldn't let it go.  So to me, they were in a relationship just Felicity had absolutely no say in it.

 

Maybe if Oliver had actually talked to Felicity about all this, he might not have made such stupid decisions. She did stop him from going undercover with DD as Oliver Queen.

 

kismet, I feel your pain about Chicago Med.  But still better than Code Black where a throat abscess becomes a nicked carotid artery and yet the patient is singing again by the end of the episode.

Edited November 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

You've completely lost me. Oliver asked Felicity out on A date. One. After said date, he told her he couldn't be with her. How much he *wanted* to be with her is irrelevant, since he was unwilling to actually do it. Sometimes breakups are mutually decided, but when one person wants out, what's there to say? That was Oliver's choice to make, and he made it. Felicity went on and dated Ray.

Oliver remained faithful to his feelings for Felicity, but the two of them were not in a romantic relationship-at all-until the very end of the season.

[statsgirl]

We've got different definitions of relationship.  I'd say that when what people do affects each other, it's a relationship.  For example, Oliver and Diggle have a brothers relationship which is why Diggle was even more angry at him for Lyla's kidnapping than Lyla was.  In a relationship, what one person does affects the other more than if they are strangers or casual acquaintances.

 

If Oliver had said no to Felicity in 3x01 and gone back to their previous platonic friendship, I'd say you're right.  But Oliver not only remained faithful to his feelings for Felicity, he remained faithful to her (Celibate Oliver).  He had conversations with her in his head.  He kept telling her he loved her even after she asked him to stop dangling maybes.  For him, it wasn't like it had been in s1.

 

Oliver wasn't physically dating Felicity but his romantic feelings towards her played a substantial role in his life and even in his decisions.  They affected how he treated Felicity (pushing her out of TA deliberations, his comments about Ray).  I think if he had talked things over with her instead of unilaterally pushing her out of his deliberations, he might not have made the bad decisions that he did.

Edited November 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

If he had talked to her, the writers would have had to actually get together and write a real TV season for season 3. OQ not talking to FS for virtually an entire season, was so the writers could get away with all of their bullsh*t plot.

 

I can respect that OQ was not able to comprehend how to be in a relationship with FS and be the Arrow. For s3a, it made sense to me. It was a major step that was challenging for him to understand how to do it. He also had very few people he could turn to for advice or examples. Dig was the only person that he had to turn to or an example of a healthy adult relationship. 

 

In s3b, after coming back from the Dead – even with OQ laser focus on the mission, the fact that he refused to have any conversation with FS was all for plot. I loved FS power statement in the alleyway of pain. But that felt like it was done only for angst and to transition her to be with RP. Even with OQ trying to protect his loved ones, it still makes no sense that he didn’t confide in FS about anything until the finale. The only thing that could make some sense is perhaps he reverted to shutting everybody out as part of his PTSD. That coming back from the dead only confirmed his fear from earlier in the season that he was going to die alone.

 

S3 was just a plotty mess. The characters were inferior to the plot especially in s3b. It’s a rabbit hole to explore s3 to explain or understand why the characters did or who they were back then.

[bijoux]

Oliver/Sara in s2 I can understand on an emotional level much better than Oliver/Laurel in s1  It was two equals who had feelings for each other, who couldn't be with the one they had romantic feelings for, who had unfinished business from six years earlier.  It was healing for both of them.  Sadly, I got the feeling that for Oliver it was something in the moment while Sara wanted more.

 

Did you get the feeling that Sara wanted more with Oliver or more in general? 

[Ann Mack]

Did you get the feeling that Sara wanted more with Oliver or more in general? 

I don't think Sara wanted more from Oliver. She was the one who pushed him away and decided to leave town. Oliver was the one talking about them possibly getting a place together since they could no longer sleep in the foundry since Roy was there. I don't know what either of them really wanted from each other. I think they both were finding comfort in each other because they had a shared experience, but I honestly couldn't see them in a long term relationship. Sara considered herself a killer who had sold her soul to the devil and was never going to see the light that she was pushing Oliver toward. I think Oliver saw Sara as someone (like the Huntress) he could help change their ways and stop killing like he had even though that's not what Sara wanted. So I don't think either of them would have made it long term in a relationship because they were at different stages of what they wanted in their life and for their life. Just my opinion. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Ann Mack

[kismet]

I think SL saw whatever her and OQ had going on as a way for her to get back who she was before the Gambit went down. It was her attempt to reconnect with who she might have been before all the bad stuff happened. I think she tried to reconnect with her family, but they rejected her in some ways. LL threw a glass of wine at her and QL used the whole dinner as an elaborate booty call scheme. About the only person and the only group that seemed to be welcoming her back was OQ & TA. So she took the opportunity to reconnect with her humanity.

 

I do think OQ saw SL as two things - 1. Perfect & safe distraction from his developing feelings towards FS and 2. A way to save SL from the darkness or maybe help her to appease the guilt he felt in that he is the reason she had become what she had become.

 

The S/O relationship was primarily one of comfort. I think they both loved each other. But I do not believe they were ever "in love" with each other. So the longevity of the relationship would have been dependent upon one of them waking up and realizing that they were wasting time with each other. SL was the first one to wake up and realize it. I think the apartment for OQ was simply a logistical thing. They needed a place to hook up without interruption. OQ was not asking for SL to move it with him or for them to settle down. However, I think when SL heard those words the lightbulb went off in her head - and she thought "what the he*L are we doing?". It was a moment of clarity that made her reevaluate what the relationship meant. And for her it was not enough for her to stick around. She peaced out as soon as possible.

[Guest]

O/S definitely didn't feel like a long term thing. They were both seeking comfort from real life problems, feelings for other people, from the mess of everything that had happened to them both. They cared a lot about each other and had a unique bond in their shared experience of going through hell. It was probably what they both needed at that point in time. It was easy.

 

But it never really felt romantic? Even Oliver suggesting they move in together wasn't really a relationship moment. It was more 'Well, we both need a place to stay so let's stay together' rather than 'I want to spend every moment with you' kind of thing. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Guest

[hogwash]

I do think OQ saw SL as two things - 1. Perfect & safe distraction from his developing feelings towards FS and 2. A way to save SL from the darkness or maybe help her to appease the guilt he felt in that he is the reason she had become what she had become.

 

You'd think he would learn to cut that shit out after the Huntress. 

[statsgirl]

Did you get the feeling that Sara wanted more with Oliver or more in general? 

I think rightly or wrongly, Sara wanted more with Oliver.  She'd had a crush on him since she was young and maybe she had a secret hope that it would work out this time.  They hadn't had a chance in the past.

 

When Oliver suggested they find a place together, he meant it as "I don't have a place to stay and you're sleeping on Laurel's couch so let's get one together so we don't have to keep begging people who owe me for a hotel room". Sara immediately took it as "let's move in together" but when she played that back for Oliver he kind of freaked out.  At that point, she saw the writing on the wall and in order to save herself from more heartache by getting more involved, she broke up with him.

 

I think SL saw whatever her and OQ had going on as a way for her to get back who she was before the Gambit went down. It was her attempt to reconnect with who she might have been before all the bad stuff happened. I think she tried to reconnect with her family, but they rejected her in some ways. LL threw a glass of wine at her and QL used the whole dinner as an elaborate booty call scheme. About the only person and the only group that seemed to be welcoming her back was OQ & TA. So she took the opportunity to reconnect with her humanity.

Maybe it was reconnecting with her humanity or maybe it was just seeking comfort in someone who cared about her since no one else seemed to.  Sara's life was rudderless at that point: she'd broken off ties with Nyssa who she loved because she didn't want to kill any more in the LoA, she didn't fit into her family any more and her job at Verdant was more of something to fill her days and her wallet than something that gave her purpose or meaning.  Her relationship with Oliver and the connect with Team Arrow seemed to be the only thing she could feel sure of.

[Starfish35]

I think rightly or wrongly, Sara wanted more with Oliver. She'd had a crush on him since she was young and maybe she had a secret hope that it would work out this time. They hadn't had a chance in the past.

When Oliver suggested they find a place together, he meant it as "I don't have a place to stay and you're sleeping on Laurel's couch so let's get one together so we don't have to keep begging people who owe me for a hotel room". Sara immediately took it as "let's move in together" but when she played that back for Oliver he kind of freaked out. At that point, she saw the writing on the wall and in order to save herself from more heartache by getting more involved, she broke up with him.

Yes this was how I read it too.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think Sara took it as "lets move in together." She knew Oliver didn't mean to imply what he was implying, and made an effort to point that out to him. 

[nksarmi]

You know since we've begun this discussion, in my head, there is now an AU where Oliver didn't sleep with Sara but did become her best friend (all the while kicking butt with her as a teammate).  Then as Sara's friend, he sat Laurel down (when she was sober) and made her understand what happened to Sara (he even risked telling Laurel some of the truth just to make her understand - then Laurel was smart enough to figure the rest out on her own without Slade's help).  Then Oliver gently told Laurel that she needed to stop drowning in self-pity and that drunkenness was not what Tommy would have wanted for her and Laurel got it.  Then Laurel and Sara talked and Laurel told Sara about her concerns about Blood and Sara supported her (maybe even Oliver didn't so it gave the sisters a chance to bond).  In this mythological season, Oliver also told his mom enough to make her stay away from Slade.  So that when Slade decided to give Oliver a "choice" - it was between Laurel and Sara - only the sisters found a way to save themselves (which I contend to this day - Shado should have been able to do).  Yea, I clearly want a feel good show where people communicate and treat each other with respect and give each other enough information to not get other people killed - I'm probably not going to get the from Arrow. 

[statsgirl]

Next person to talk to Caity Lotz at a con could ask her which it is -- did Sara interpret it as moving in together, or did she just want to point out to him how it could have been misconstrued.

[apinknightmare]

If someone was really that curious, they should send MG a Tumblr ask. It doesn't really matter how Caity interpreted it, it matters what the writers meant by the line in the script. 

[statsgirl]

Is MG even going to remember the scene? He didn't remember that Oliver spoke Mandarin.

As I recall SA and CL had to make up much of the Oliver/Sara interaction because they weren't told how to play it.

 

I've given up asking MG for clarifications. He doesn't answer.

[Guest]

I do vaguely remember MG answering an ask about O/S being in love and he said no. Or did I imagine that?

[Soulfire]

I do vaguely remember MG answering an ask about O/S being in love and he said no. Or did I imagine that?

 

From MG's Tumblr --

 

Q: Hi Marc! Maybe you won't answer this but I have to ask because it's been bothering me a little bit. Was Oliver in love with Sara? I know he told Barry that she was a woman he loved in the crossover and Felicity mentioned the same in ep3x12 but we also know that Oliver tells Felicity he loves her in s2 finale and in s3 we see that hes really in love with her. But there are just a few eps between the Sara breaking up and the finale. So, I guess, he loved Sara but was he in love with her?

 

MG: It’s a matter of opinion.  I’m of the school that Oliver loved Sara but was not in love with her.

[Guest]

From MG's Tumblr --

 

Yes. That's the one. Thank you!

 

LOL @ his matter of opinion crap though. I think as show runner he should have a firm idea on whether someone is in love with another person.

[apinknightmare]

Is MG even going to remember the scene? He didn't remember that Oliver spoke Mandarin.

As I recall SA and CL had to make up much of the Oliver/Sara interaction because they weren't told how to play it.

 

Why would he need to remember the scene? Isn't the whole argument that Sara wanted more but Oliver didn't? That's a simple enough question to ask him. It doesn't seem like asking Caity will prove anything, since she didn't write the story and would just be providing her interpretation of it. 

Yes. That's the one. Thank you!

 

LOL @ his matter of opinion crap though. I think as show runner he should have a firm idea on whether someone is in love with another person.

 

He probably never gave it much thought since Oliver and Sara were treated as nothing but a stall.

Edited December 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Sara was the perfect bridge between the Laurel and the main plot of S2. If I was writing it and actually cared about Laurel, I would have skipped the whole addiction arc altogether. I would have had Sara and Laurel work on rebuilding their relationship in S2a and then have something happen to have Sara and Oliver bring her into the secret. Laurel works with the Team as an Attorney and Sara starts training Laurel (as a way of channeling her grief/anger over Tommy and as a way of helping her feel more in control) in S2b.

 

It would have set Laurel up for S3 so much better.

[AyChihuahua]

I think this means I am insensitive, but I don't see Laurel as strong for overcoming her addiction; I see her as weak for developing an addiction in the first place.  Totally an island/crucible of her own making.

[nksarmi]

Sara was the perfect bridge between the Laurel and the main plot of S2. If I was writing it and actually cared about Laurel, I would have skipped the whole addiction arc altogether. I would have had Sara and Laurel work on rebuilding their relationship in S2a and then have something happen to have Sara and Oliver bring her into the secret. Laurel works with the Team as an Attorney and Sara starts training Laurel (as a way of channeling her grief/anger over Tommy and as a way of helping her feel more in control) in S2b.

 

It would have set Laurel up for S3 so much better.

 

/hug to your post.

 

THIS is what makes me sometimes wonder if KC didn't piss off the writers room and there is some kind of passive aggressive thing going on with how they write Laurel.

[statsgirl]

This show demands people have islands before they can get their masks.  Since Tommy's death wasn't enough, they had to give her an addiction arc.  I'm sure AK thought it was a gift, not a punishment.

 

He probably never gave it much thought since Oliver and Sara were treated as nothing but a stall.

That's exactly why I want CL's interpretation of it, since MG can't even be bothered to nail down what it was on Oliver's side.

 

What we're basing our impressions of the scene on is how CL acted it. That's why she's the one whose interpretation I'd like to know.

[statsgirl]

Bringing this over from the Spoiler discussion thread, in case anyone want to continue:

He wasn't going to INJURE the kid.  At worst he would have continued being a dumb douchebag and popped in and out of the kid's life.  At best he would have been an involved parent.  It was up to him to decide, and to have the chance.  He'll never know what kind of parent he would have been, because the choice was taken away from him.  Tons of people are not great parental material, but you don't have to be perfect to be a parent.  

 

I mean Baby Mama was a mess, too.  She was hooking up with a dumb douchebag, so she wasn't exactly smart and mature.  But SHE got the opportunity to raise her child.  It's not fair that she got that chance and he didn't, and he has every right to be upset about that.

I don't think he would have physically injured the baby. But I can see him promising things and disappointing the child, and I can see him offering to take care of him/her but then getting drunk and the kid doing something that injures.  Even if he had married her, how was he going to support them?  Would there be constant fights about her having trapped him?  Custody battles that the mom couldn't possibly win against the Queens' money?  Go to any family mental health centre or court and you'll see dozens of cases where the child is clearly better off with one parent but the other keeps coming in and messing it up.

 

When Oliver said his life was over because he got a girl pregnant is the point when it was obvious no good was going to come of this situation .

 

The most annoying thing about what MQ did was only done to protect her family's image. We will never know what type of father OQ would have been. Or what demands BabyMama would have made on the Queen Family. But buying her out for her secrecy was the simplest decision. It really had nothing to do with what was in the best interest of the Baby, BabyMama or OQ. It was done to keep the Queen family from having a illegitimate heir. And that is disgraceful. There would have been so many other ways they could have handled the situation. But MQ chose to pay money to keep the baby a secret and on top of that lie to her son about it.

I disagree -- I think Moira did it to protect Oliver.  She sometimes made the stupidest decisions about her children, like not parenting them properly, but everything she did, even the deals with Malcolm she did to protect her kids.

 

The odds that something good would have come of Oliver knowing about the baby are small IMO.  From Moira's research on the girl, there was no doubt it was Oliver's child which implies she wasn't promiscuous and probably still in school, unlike Oliver.  She had family in Central City who she could have help her raise the baby.  Maybe if Oliver hadn't been gone for five years, or maybe if Moira had lived, she would have told him about the child when she saw that he h ad matured. But Moira died too soon..

[kismet]

It's heavy handed protection on Moira's part. But it was done to protect OQ's position as heir to Queen name. And it was done to avoid more scandal to the Queen name. Was it done from a place of love to protect her son? Yes. But make no mistake, she was looking out for the well-being of the family name, more so than her son's well-being. A mother helps her son work through the mistake, she doesn't just pay for the mistake to go away and hide that truth from her son.

 

But we are able to believe what we want to  believe. I will say that Moira died too soon for her to explain herself to the audience or her son. Perhaps we will find a diary of her one of these days that will give us insight.

[calliope1975]

It's heavy handed protection on Moira's part. But it was done to protect OQ's position as heir to Queen name. And it was done to avoid more scandal to the Queen name. Was it done from a place of love to protect her son? Yes. But make no mistake, she was looking out for the well-being of the family name, more so than her son's well-being. A mother helps her son work through the mistake, she doesn't just pay for the mistake to go away and hide that truth from her son.

 

But we are able to believe what we want to  believe. I will say that Moira died too soon for her to explain herself to the audience or her son. Perhaps we will find a diary of her one of these days that will give us insight.

 

Moira might have paid off Baby Mama to protect Oliver, but that type of protection is how she ended up with such a douchey, irresponsible, asshole son to begin with. And if the must inflict this story line upon me, I'm forever bitter ST is gone and won't be around to elevate it. I would actually have loved to see a scene between Moira and Oliver where she explains her actions. 

[tarotx]

If they bring anyone to Arrow from Earth 2 fingers crossed that it's Moira. Maybe Moira can be Black Canary from Earth 2 and that way we can have the Green Arrow (E2 Robert Queen)&Black Canary romance marriage ;)

Edited December 2, 2015 by tarotx

[apinknightmare]

Moira might have paid off Baby Mama to protect Oliver, but that type of protection is how she ended up with such a douchey, irresponsible, asshole son to begin with. And if the must inflict this story line upon me, I'm forever bitter ST is gone and won't be around to elevate it. I would actually have loved to see a scene between Moira and Oliver where she explains her actions. 

 

Yeah, I feel like the potential meat of this storyline went away when Moira was killed. How long can we possibly watch Oliver be angry at a dead woman? It's useless. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Moira might have paid off Baby Mama to protect Oliver, but that type of protection is how she ended up with such a douchey, irresponsible, asshole son to begin with.

First, I completely agree with that--Moira created and then enabled Douchey!Oliver.

With the Queens' wealth, surely investing in parenting classes for Oliver during the pregnancy and as long as needed would have been money well spent. If the mom was going to continue the pregnancy, then Oliver should have known and been supported by his parents to step up. They should have insisted that he take responsibility for the child's emotional and financial well-being. They should have supported him making adult decisions for himself.

Oliver's reaction was immature, and the poor little billionaire brat panicked that his easy life was ruined forever. Most young people confronted by an unplanned pregnancy panic. Despite being coddled and spoiled, Oliver could have handled young fatherhood with the right kind of family support. Instead, Moira stripped Oliver of his right to know about his son and of the opportunity to grow and mature.

[apinknightmare]

I remember a really great line from a fanfic I read, and sadly I can't remember which one it was, that sums up Moira and Robert Queen: the two of them would actually DIE for Oliver, but they could not tell him no.

[statsgirl]

Moira's lack of parenting skills really makes me wonder about what her life was growing up.  Parents of her own who didn't parent her properly but was she a little rich girl who didn't get her parents' attention?  Or did she grow up poor and remake herself into what she thought Robert wanted, only to have him be a serial cheater.

 

It's funny that in season 1 it was Oliver who told her she needed to start being Thea's parent again.  She was a fast learner though.

 

But Robert was far worse as a parent.  He cheated on his wife, he enabled his son (he should have kicked Sara off the boat as soon as he found her), and at then end he was too much of a coward to live and not only  burdened his son with righting his wrongs but traumatized him by blowing his brains out in front of him.  Oliver could have starved to death on the raft or been found by pirates and made a slave, and Robert was just ignoring all that.

If they bring anyone to Arrow from Earth 2 fingers crossed that it's Moira. Maybe Moira can be Black Canary from Earth 2 and that way we can have the Green Arrow (E2 Robert Queen)&Black Canary romance marriage ;)

And cross that one off the list.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I disagree -- I think Moira did it to protect Oliver.

Protect him from what?  What actual, measurable harm would have come to him from being told he had a kid, and possibly having a tiny bit of a moment of facing responsibility?  He wasn't going to jail because of it.  He couldn't have been forced to marry her.  It wasn't going to harm him financially or make him lose a nonexistent job.  At worst he'd have to talk to the Queen family lawyers, attend a deposition or two, hang out every other weekend with his own kid (with the help of a nanny), probably get dumped by Laurel again, and maybe hear a couple snarky comments from acquaintances.   

[statsgirl]

And that's how Oliver could have harmed the child -- if all he had to go on was Moira's parenting skills.  Moira didn't make either of her children face responsibility. 

 

Welcome to the world of helicopter parents, who want to smooth every bump on the road for their children and in so doing prevent them from growing up or developing the sense of self-esteem that overcoming failure brings.  I know someone who works in student services in a private college.  She gets phone calls from parenting telling her to change the menu because their children, who live in residence, don't like what's being served and the parent thinks it's their responsibility to fix things.

 

Oliver told Moira that his life was over now, and Moira made the problem go away.  It was that stellar parenting that put Oliver on the front pages drunk and a douche, and Thea crashing the car she got for her birthday that day.

 

I agree, it wouldn't have hurt Oliver to have to take the responsiblity for creating a child.  It could have hurt the child though depending on how he handled it.

[quarks]

Can we talk about this yet?

 

Last week, Felicity: "how you usually spend your evenings....dressing in leather and tying people up..."

 

This week, Oliver: "More bruises from her than from Deathstroke."

 

...or should we just leave things there?

[statsgirl]

Or to fan fiction?

[kismet]

I think the child got screwed either way.... Because the truth always comes out and honestly what is the child supposed to think? Even if OQ had been a horrible father (which I don't think he would have been) that could have been a reality that the child accepted. Now once the truth is out, he is going to think he father didn't want him around. Not only did his father not want him, his grandmother paid money to make the child go away. It's just harmful and hurtful to a child's psyche.

 

A crappy parent is also a horrible thing, but at least it wouldn't be the child being abandoned by his father & his father's family which is essentially what this amounts to. I can see now how this child is going to indirectly trigger FS's abandonment issues. Which is going to cause authentic drama in the O/F relationship. Because it will rub at FS's emotional scars. OQ didn't willing abandon his child. But the child still grew up fatherless or with a substitute father. Once he realizes his real father left him, that's going to feel very similar to be being abandoned.

 

I'm honestly curious as to what the mother told him about his father. Because what she told him is going to make a world of difference in how the child is going to cope with the big reveal.

[wonderwall]

Can we talk about this yet?

 

Last week, Felicity: "how you usually spend your evenings....dressing in leather and tying people up..."

 

This week, Oliver: "More bruises from her than from Deathstroke."

 

...or should we just leave things there?

 

Totally self explanatory. And damn their sex life must be really intense if she gives him bruises in bed lmao

 

But I'm going to need a 3 times Felicity purposely bruised Oliver in bed and 1 time she accidentally really hurt him (maybe she accidentally kneed his little Oliver? Idk) fic soon. 

[Tazmania]

Can we talk about this yet?

Last week, Felicity: "how you usually spend your evenings....dressing in leather and tying people up..."

This week, Oliver: "More bruises from her than from Deathstroke."

...or should we just leave things there?

This confirms my head canon that Felicity is a real wild cat in bedroom. Oliver Queen had no idea how his life was gonna change when he asked her to drive into the sunset with him back in May.

[looptab]

Can we talk about this yet?

 

Last week, Felicity: "how you usually spend your evenings....dressing in leather and tying people up..."

 

This week, Oliver: "More bruises from her than from Deathstroke."

 

...or should we just leave things there?

We see the fun, I bet there's someone somewhere who's screaming "Felicity abuses Oliver!" LOL

 

Re: The kid, Oliver, and Moira, this convo is really interesting but I think I'm missing something. haha. @Statsgirl, do you think having Oliver know about the baby at the time would have been harmful for the baby or Oliver himself? Because I think I read you writing(in some other thread) it'd have been harmful for Oliver, and then the convo kinda derailed. I'm asking for clarity's sake :)

[dtissagirl]

The thing about Moira paying off Baby Mama is that at least to me, it looked like Oliver kept doing shitty things like peeing on cop cars or whatever, and she was probably not thrilled that scandals followed him around. Moira was definitely someone who really cared about appearances of propriety, and Oliver wasn't "proper" in anyway.

 

And here's the dumbass messing up again, but this time around, he went to Moira with it before it turned into what would be a scandal from her POV. And she had the opportunity to fix it. I think in her head, that was A+ parenting, because for once it would keep Oliver out of the headlines.

[BkWurm1]

Keeping the scandal out of the paper probably didn't upset Moira but I don't think it was her priority. I think if Oliver had talked about buckling down and taking responsibility she would have backed him, the papers be dammed.

[jay741982]

Can we talk about this yet?

Last week, Felicity: "how you usually spend your evenings....dressing in leather and tying people up..."

This week, Oliver: "More bruises from her than from Deathstroke."

...or should we just leave things there?

Lol when Oliver said that I was Whoa what do you and Felicity do? Felicity might be into some kinky shit lol

[bijoux]

She is the Overlord after all.