Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Chaser]

Lol I don't even think it occurred to him that Laurel and Ray would be mad too. They clearly put the betrayal with Diggle and Felicity.

I just think that's the vibe Laurel gives off. The body language is very defensive and stiff. She always seems ready for a fight. The scene in the living room is a good example of that.

[Morrigan2575]

Pssst spoiler....might want to hide it

[Chaser]

The living room? Episode has already aired....is that not allowed?

[tangerine95]

Pssst spoiler....might want to hide it

lol I totally forgot about no spoilers here.I deleted that part now.

[Morrigan2575]

:-)

Edited October 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

And I kind of understood that Oliver felt like he had no other choice.He did intend to die himself to kill Ras and he did send Barry to save them so I didn't hold it against him for too long.

And it's fine that you forgave him.  Lots of people who like Oliver quickly forgave him.  But (1) he didn't do it to you; and (2) Laurel is the woman who was generally unhappy that her ex-bf and SISTER weren't dead, just because they'd had an affair.  She is not at all forgiving.  Oh, and Oliver being willing/planning to die was pretty much his default for the first three seasons, so that isn't much of an out.  

 

However, KC and the writers don't usually think clearly about Laurel's motivations and emotional reactions, so it is probably just LL's usual pissiness. 

[tangerine95]

And it's fine that you forgave him.  Lots of people who like Oliver quickly forgave him.  But (1) he didn't do it to you; and (2) Laurel is the woman who was generally unhappy that her ex-bf and SISTER weren't dead, just because they'd had an affair.  She is not at all forgiving.  Oh, and Oliver being willing/planning to die was pretty much his default for the first three seasons, so that isn't much of an out.  

 

However, KC and the writers don't usually think clearly about Laurel's motivations and emotional reactions, so it is probably just LL's usual pissiness.

I would get it if they gave that as an in show reason for the dirty looks and attitude.They didn't though Laurel and Oliver barely spoke and the show makes it clear when they're focusing on an issue between characters.

Its probably down to the acting.

[AyChihuahua]

I agree, but why make the acting choice to be pissy without any reason?  Is the idea just that Laurel doesn't like being told what to do?

 

At this point, I am starting to think that SA and KC don't like each other.  It's getting a bit ridiculous.

[Chaser]

See I don't think Laurel was supposed to be pissy. I think she was supposed to be more taken back, KC just gives off that vibe. She gives it off with everyone so I don't think it can be read as a 'just SA' thing.

I have no idea about the SA and KC relationship because I think there are too many contradictions. I just ignore it. Too dangerous.

[lemotomato]

I think KC just has an unfortunate case of resting bitchy face (see also: January Jones). Combined with some of her acting choices, LL often comes off as angry/righteous. Which is great if that's what KC is going for-- strong independent woman that doesn't need to listen to anyone, but that's like her default setting, even in scenes when she's supposed to be warm/compassionate/humble. When I compare and contrast Thea and Laurel in the scene where they ask Oliver for help, Thea seems to be at the end of her rope, reluctant and pleading, but Laurel gets flat out angry and her tone turns lecture-like when Oliver says that the Arrow is dead. Instead of asking for his help, her attitude came off as her telling him to stop slacking off in suburbia, because Starling needs help.

[Starfish35]

When I compare and contrast Thea and Laurel in the scene where they ask Oliver for help, Thea seems to be at the end of her rope, reluctant and pleading, but Laurel gets flat out angry and her tone turns lecture-like when Oliver says that the Arrow is dead. Instead of asking for his help, her attitude came off as her telling him to stop slacking off in suburbia, because Starling needs help.

Yeah totally agree.

[Password]

but Laurel gets flat out angry and her tone turns lecture-like when Oliver says that the Arrow is dead. Instead of asking for his help, her attitude came off as her telling him to stop slacking off in suburbia, because Starling needs help.

Hit the nail on the head.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Password

[kismet]

OQ & LL can be very similar. They both are demanding and like to tell others what to do. They are the same side of the coin sometimes. That is why their relationship is always so hostile. There is no medium between them. LL has resting bitch face and OQ (as the Arrow esp) has resting bitch tone. Either way I read the same old, same old quasi-hostile but because its a tv show we have to work together dynamic between them in 401, that its been since s2.

 

Anyway, what I really want is for someone in the writers room to come up with a quippy response for OQ to give whenever people say they know him to his bones. Something funny, that line needs to be mocked in-show because it is utterly ridiculous to be getting as much airtime as it does. I can't think of something now, but trust me I'll be working on it.

[BkWurm1]

 I agree that there were zero indications that there was any attempt to upgrade Oliver and Laurel's relationship in the opening episode.  Which is something I will continue to watch in ensuing episodes.  I said it in the Spoilers thread that I think the only reason the show runners would consider deleting Felicity from the show was if they were going to do romantic Oliver and Laurel or EBR wanted out of the show.  I feel certain that if the Because Comics reason was happening,  there would be signs even while Oliver and Felicity were solidly together so the complete lack of anything, even normal friendly interaction or a private conversation was very reassuring to me. 

 

I do expect that this season will establish a friendship between Oliver and Laurel but there is a big difference between being on better terms and the show planning to make something more of the friendship. If we ever started seeing those lingering looks and touches that we regularly saw between Oliver and Felicity being handed off to Laurel and Oliver, then I'd start worrying, but I see nothing to make me worry. 

 

The reverse hallway conversation that will happen doesn't concern me. Walking that back just means Oliver promising they will always be friends and he WILL always have her back.

 

In season two, Laurel offered an apology to Sara and they seemed to be in a better place but no one really dealt with the real issue of Oliver running off with Sara to blow up his relationship with Laurel.  They do need to provide closure on it for I think Sara and Laurel.  I think for Oliver he wouldn't object to being forgiven but he has already moved past that guilt (and did in the hallway scene IMO with Laurel where he refused to chase after her again), but Sara and Laurel haven't had closure.  Closure to me means finding a way to let go of the old festering wounds and moving forward.  It does not mean to me reopening the can of worms or regressing . 

[EmeraldArcher]

Um. We literally just had the best O/F episode where Oliver wanted nothing more than a life and future with Felicity. He even needed reassurance from her that she was 100% with him because he loves her so much. He wants to wife that girl. He wants to wife her good. Come on guys!

 

I'm responding to this in a different context than you meant it, but as much as I enjoyed the Olicity lovefest (I did; I really did), I actually find Oliver sexier when he's smoldering and has a harder...edge (thanks, Felicity, for making me wince on re-reading). It could be due to SA's naturally higher pitched voice (that's so Ollie!) compared to OQ's lower voice in previous seasons.  For some reason, I just found him less sexy, and that is not acceptable when we're getting oodles of Olicity sexy times this year. 

 

If I wanted to ogle suburban dads, all I'd have to do is look around. I want to ogle a lethal, battle-hardened warrior with a sexy voice and bad tattoos. Is that too much to ask? 

[Guest]

I'm responding to this in a different context than you meant it, but as much as I enjoyed the Olicity lovefest (I did; I really did), I actually find Oliver sexier when he's smoldering and has a harder...edge (thanks, Felicity, for making me wince on re-reading). It could be due to SA's naturally higher pitched voice (that's so Ollie!) compared to OQ's lower voice in previous seasons.  For some reason, I just found him less sexy, and that is not acceptable when we're getting oodles of Olicity sexy times this year. 

 

If I wanted to ogle suburban dads, all I'd have to do is look around. I want to ogle a lethal, battle-hardened warrior with a sexy voice and bad tattoos. Is that too much to ask? 

 

Really? I'm still undecided on the change in his voice right now, gonna wait and see how it develops, but he was plenty sexy to me. I especially loved his throaty little 'Yeah?' after Felicity said him being sweaty was amazing. Super hot! I don't know, I just love loved-up Oliver. I don't need him to be smouldering all the time, if that makes sense? 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Guest

[lemotomato]

I like the smouldering, but I also like SA's (and EBR's) dimpled smiles, and I really like seeing them in the context of the show. So much pretty. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Really? I'm still undecided on the change in his voice right now, gonna wait and see how it develops, but he was plenty sexy to me. I especially loved his throaty little 'Yeah?' after Felicity said him being sweaty was amazing. Super hot! I don't know, I just love loved-up Oliver. I don't need him to be smouldering all the time, if that makes sense? 

It makes complete sense!  I just re-watched a compilation of all their scenes on YouTube (for Science, obviously).  I've commented before that I love their joy, especially all of the delightful smiling-while-kissing kisses, and I do think that Oliver deserves joy and love.  I've even loved those rare interactions in S3 when he was smiling and flirty, like in CC Jitters in the Flash crossover. 

 

Maybe because it was the first time and so high-stakes, but I thought the Nanda Parbat sex scene was incredibly HOT--like re-watch in every YouTube version (slow-mo, alternate music, without background music, etc.) kind of HOT.  I found Oliver to be adorable and loved-up in 401, but not as sexy-hot as I've found him in previous seasons.  I AM happy for Oliver and Felicity, but now it seems like their relationship and level of sexiness is more for the two of them and less for me.

;-)

 

It's totally a matter of taste and one that I should probably be ashamed of.  I blame Jane Austen for making a dour man seem so attractive.

 

ETA: I just realized why I feel this way.  I've watched many of SA's FB videos, and OQ seems more like SA than he used to.  I used to watch SA's videos and marvel that he could utterly transform into the smoldering OQ character. For example, watching videos of Daniel Craig interviews doesn't make me astonished that he plays James Bond--he has a lot of the same mannerisms, voice, expressions, etc.  Although I've always found OQ sexy as hell, SA didn't inspire the same reaction.  In 401, I felt like both SA and EBR played closer to their real personalities, and it took me out of the show a bit.

Edited October 12, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[NumberCruncher]

I'll gladly take the tradeoff of losing sexy, growly Oliver if it means the show is a little less grim-dark. I can't live through another S3. Plus, as lemotomato said, Stephen's smile is pretty damn beautiful.

[lemotomato]

For science!

Smoldering: (more gifs from the scene here. Couldn't contain all the smolder in one post)

 

Smiling:

Edited October 12, 2015 by lemotomato

[InsertWordHere]

Why choose? I'll take both, please!

[Guest]

NOPE. I love them both. But I can't tell you how much I love the fact that O/F actually pause to smile through their kiss. MY HEART.

[statsgirl]

I seriously doubt the show is writting Laurel as mad at Oliver about that or anything else from season 3,they make those things clear like with Diggle.That's why I think the attitude comes from the acting more then the writting.

I think much of that was the writers were really going for "See Oliver, things have really changed since you left, it's a democracy now" and like they often do, they overshot the mark.

 

Diggle has a legit reason for being mad at Oliver plus he didn't want Oliver to come back.  Laurel (along with Thea) was insisting they needed his help so it made no sense for her to get all huffy when he started setting out the plan. You don't bring in a general and ask him to be a foot soldier.

[tangerine95]

I think much of that was the writers were really going for "See Oliver, things have really changed since you left, it's a democracy now" and like they often do, they overshot the mark.

 

Diggle has a legit reason for being mad at Oliver plus he didn't want Oliver to come back.  Laurel (along with Thea) was insisting they needed his help so it made no sense for her to get all huffy when he started setting out the plan. You don't bring in a general and ask him to be a foot soldier.

The whole scene made no sense to me.Oliver wasn't even rude or asking anything unreasonable.They asked for his help,had found nothing on their own but get offended at his telling them to do what makes sense and what they wanted him there for in the first place.

To make it even dumber they then do what he said only they give him a dirty look before that.

Diggle had a good reason and he didn't want Oliver there.Thea wasn't that bad either from what I remember in that scene though she annoyed me with the way she behaved towards Oliver the whole episode but Laurel really overdid it with the look she gave Oliver and all the attitude.

[Sakura12]

Is that really any different then Laurel usually acts?

She's always giving everyone that talks to her attitude. Unless they are praising her awesomeness. Laurel always comes across as cold no matter what the scenes supposed to be.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

I'm absolutely loving this write-up about the team dynamics of 4x01. It really hits the nail on the head... My favorite part: 

 

 

They wanted the Arrow back, but they did not want Oliver Queen to come with the package. That’s what I got after watching 4x01 a few times. They wanted his skill set, but anything else beyond that – his brotherly concern, mostly – was not welcome. They wanted him to use his talents as vigilante for their benefit, but they refuse to acknowledge that that talented vigilante was a bossy S.O.B. They just want him to use his hard-earned skills to help them, but don’t want any of the drama that comes with having Oliver Queen back in their lives.

 

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/131078336153/some-4x01-thoughts-this-will-get-rant-y

[Guest]

I'm absolutely loving this write-up about the team dynamics of 4x01. It really hits the nail on the head... My favorite part: 

 

 

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/131078336153/some-4x01-thoughts-this-will-get-rant-y

Thanks for posting this. I'm not on tumblr anymore so I miss things like this now.

I agree with everything said here and also one of the replies which said she felt like she was watching The Sixth Sense and no one was acknowledging Felicity apart from Oliver. And it's just made me realize that yes, that's exactly what was missing. Not one of them spoke or hugged or said thank you to Felicity at all. (Still low key pissed that Diggle didn't give her a hug but whatever.) I hope that's not how things are gonna be now.

[lemotomato]

Thanks for posting this. I'm not on tumblr anymore so I miss things like this now.

I agree with everything said here and also one of the replies which said she felt like she was watching The Sixth Sense and no one was acknowledging Felicity apart from Oliver. And it's just made me realize that yes, that's exactly what was missing. Not one of them spoke or hugged or said thank you to Felicity at all. (Still low key pissed that Diggle didn't give her a hug but whatever.) I hope that's not how things are gonna be now.

I noticed that too when I rewatched the episode. And Diggle's only words to her were "Call me when you get the info". WTF? Considering how they were treated by supposed friends that asked them for help, Oliver and Felicity should've flipped them off and left. 

[Password]

That's exactly how I felt on rewatch. Everyone was shading Oliver, yes, but at least they acknowledged that he was in the ROOM. It felt terrible. Felicity felt separate from the team in a way I've never felt before except for her interactions with Oliver.

I REALLY hope it was just this episode. I won't freak out but I sincerely hope it improves.

[Velocity23]

Seriously the Flash went there?  I guess AK cant help himself.

[apinknightmare]

It's like every writer over on The Flash is a bitter ex.

[wonderwall]

ETA: Yeah I just saw that scene... I think Cisco was just joking around? IDK I don't think it was actually Cisco trying to bring Oliver down. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

I saw that on Tumblr, so I can't say anything about delivery but it looks like gentle ribbing to me, nothing malicious.

[apinknightmare]

I saw that on Tumblr, so I can't say anything about delivery but it looks like gentle ribbing to me, nothing malicious.

It's not this comment in particular, just constant jabs at Oliver while Barry remains the greatest (despite not being so great himself).

Edited October 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I'm just laughing at Oliver having that camera so close on his face, like back that thing up! Laurels mask doesn't technically/realistically hide her identity that well but at least she isn't on national tv.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[bijoux]

I'm just laughing at Oliver having that camera so close on his face, like back that thing up!

That's actually not bad thinking. A wider shot could show some of the lair which is not the best idea.

[Primal Slayer]

Consider how basic the lair is, I don't think it would have done any damage.

[Velocity23]

This is typical AK. He always has a laughing taking shots at Oliver Queen. Thank god he is off Arrow. He can have fun with his octagon on Flash and Supergirl.

[AyChihuahua]

This is typical AK. He always has a laughing taking shots at Oliver Queen. Thank god he is off Arrow. He can have fun with his octagon on Flash and Supergirl.

I think he's still an EP on Arrow, unfortunately.

[Primal Slayer]

Considering when he was on Arrow, it was a much stronger show I don't know if that is a good thing.

[Velocity23]

If he was on Arrow he would have been a part of the premiere. But he was left out. He is basically the creator of the show, but has no real connection to the show anymore.

[wonderwall]

IDK I think based off the premier, Arrow is becoming that good show we knew and loved again showing that AK isn't needed. What was needed was balancing MGs ridiculous ideas for the show. Plus IMO He probably stretched himself too thin last season and Arrow suffered because of it. 

[Guest]

That Cisco comment was kind of typical and heavy handed. Loves BLACK Canary but doesn't like GREEN Arrow. Okay, AK. Okay.

[Velocity23]

MG was practically left alone since 2x09. When AK and GB went to start up the Flash. I

[apinknightmare]

I think the premiere proved that the show doesn't need AK so much as that MG needs an active collaborator. Hopefully with WM in the picture the quality is better/more consistent.

[Guest]

OT but I hated the way AK wrote Felicity and he's the one who loves all the love geometry crap so bye bye!

[dtissagirl]

I think he's still an EP on Arrow, unfortunately.

 

AK's probably always gonna be credited as an EP on Arrow solely for being one of the show's original creators. But he doesn't seem to be involved AT ALL this season in the day to day.

 

I think AK is better at creating character-driven structures than Guggie, but otoh, I find his overall writing to be extremely juvenile, and I hate the way he writers lady characters A LOT, so I'm glad he's off Arrow. A 12 year old fanboy writer fits The Flash anyway.

Edited October 14, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Guest]

I think AK is better at creating character-driven structures than Guggie, but otoh, I find his overall writing to be extremely juvenile, and I hate the way he writers lady characters A LOT, so I'm glad he's off Arrow. A 12 year old fanboy writer fits The Flash anyway.

 

I'm getting the impression that The Flash might fall into the 'all style no substance' category if it's not careful. They seem to focus so much on the comics rather than what works for the characters they've already built. I saw there was a load of fuss made for the scene of Flash and Jay running either side of a wall which was from a famous comic book cover and I'm like, really? Okay then. I'm all for appreciating the source material but when it dictates a show, that's when things get bad. Case in point: Arrow s3.

[AyChihuahua]

 

 

I can't really recall many of these breaks. I know Diggle and Felicity have always been very understanding of him until s3 and I don't even want to get started on the reasons why that stopped happening in s3.

And I wasn't actually talking about them airing their frustrations at him. I was talking about how they refused to accept the way he offered them help and were basically bratty assholes. I know Diggle especially has probably been left to stew on his anger for months but the way they were all so dismissive of him was out of line, IMO.

After S3, I would have been perfectly fine if all of TA (even Felicity), probably excluding Thea and Roy, told him to eff off forever.  My personal opinion, which I know is not widely shared here, is that in S3 he was a manipulative moronic controlling a-hole.  BUT, they didn't tell him to eff off forever.  Thea and Laurel asked him back, so obviously they wanted his knowledge and abilities...so then why be such snots when he gave them his knowledge and abilities?  (I give Digg a pass here, because he didn't ask Oliver back, and somewhat has told Oliver to eff off forever.)  The whole argument that they can ask for his help and then snot at him about it feels like Martian logic.  It's not as if he immediately went back to his manipulative controlling ways, which would be sufficient reason for Laurel and Thea's snottiness, but he didn't.  He was more his s2 get-it-done self than his awful S3 self.  

[Guest]

After S3, I would have been perfectly fine if all of TA (even Felicity), probably excluding Thea and Roy, told him to eff off forever.  My personal opinion, which I know is not widely shared here, is that in S3 he was a manipulative moronic controlling a-hole.  BUT, they didn't tell him to eff off forever.  Thea and Laurel asked him back, so obviously they wanted his knowledge and abilities...so then why be such snots when he gave them his knowledge and abilities?  (I give Digg a pass here, because he didn't ask Oliver back, and somewhat has told Oliver to eff off forever.)  The whole argument that they can ask for his help and then snot at him about it feels like Martian logic.  It's not as if he immediately went back to his manipulative controlling ways, which would be sufficient reason for Laurel and Thea's snottiness, but he didn't.  He was more his s2 get-it-done self than his awful S3 self.  

 

Yeah, look, I don't hate Oliver as much as you, haha. But I understand your reasons for disliking him. He was an idiot for most of s3 and he made dumb questionable choices. I feel like everyone has a valid reason for the anger at him. I just didn't appreciate how it was expressed. 

 

They asked him to come back for help. No, they weren't asking for his leadership but that's what Oliver does. He leads. He makes tough decisions. It's perfectly in character for him to throw out some directions. I honestly don't know what they expected. That he was gonna travel all that way and then sit there? Their bratty attitude made no sense to me and that's what I felt was wrong.