Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

I think this is going somewhere. With her being left out, or being completely written out of the lair. 

 

How would it look to the team that all those times she wasn't there and then the one time she's there she gets injured? It would really play with their minds.

 

It DID lead her somewhere though. Straight into Palmer's arms. If Digg were actually there for her, and if she were actually there for Digg this season, I don't even think that Palmer would've been an issue. Not that she'd be romantically involved with Digg, but she'd have someone to talk to, someone to lean on, someone to respect her and she'd have someone to take care of too (especially after Oliver died). 

[tv echo]

Here's another interesting fan analysis of the Oliver & Felicity relationship...

 

Olicity - A Vaguely In Depth Look At The State Of Affairs Of Our Fave Couple With A Surprising Amount Of Hedgehog References
louiseblue1   March 7, 2015
http://louiseblue1.tumblr.com/post/112950917432/olicity-a-vaguely-in-depth-look-at-the-state-of

[wonderwall]

Here's another interesting fan analysis of the Oliver & Felicity relationship...

 

Olicity - A Vaguely In Depth Look At The State Of Affairs Of Our Fave Couple With A Surprising Amount Of Hedgehog References

louiseblue1   March 7, 2015

http://louiseblue1.tumblr.com/post/112950917432/olicity-a-vaguely-in-depth-look-at-the-state-of

 

LMAO this was such a pleasure to read. I love the author's voice... just the way she talks makes me more optimistic about this couple (I mean not that I wasn't, but I've had my doubts). 

[Guest]

Here's another interesting fan analysis of the Oliver & Felicity relationship...

 

Olicity - A Vaguely In Depth Look At The State Of Affairs Of Our Fave Couple With A Surprising Amount Of Hedgehog References

louiseblue1   March 7, 2015

http://louiseblue1.tumblr.com/post/112950917432/olicity-a-vaguely-in-depth-look-at-the-state-of

 

Love this, especially the comparison to Jeff/Annie from Community. Yet another ship that was never meant to happen but the actors chemistry was too good to pass up.

 

Also agree with this so much:

 

They’ve totally taken the heartbeat out of the show by the removal of the Olicity dynamic

 

 

I have lots of issues with this season that go way beyond Olicity, believe me, but their friendship and the lightness of that dynamic was a break in the overall darkness of the show, so much so that it's startlingly obvious now that it's missing.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Guest

[wonderwall]

I have lots of issues with this season that go way beyond Olicity, believe me, but their friendship and the lightness of that dynamic was a break in the overall darkness of the show, so much so that it's startlingly obvious now that it's missing.

 

Even the detractors who say that O/F ruined the show sort of proves the point that O/F's relationship is important. Their friendship, their lightness, their banter is all very important. They only believe O/F are ruining the show because the drama took away that dynamic. It's actually a powerful statement in favor of O/F and I don't even think they realize it lol

[Guest]

Even the detractors who say that O/F ruined the show sort of proves the point that O/F's relationship is important. Their friendship, their lightness, their banter is all very important. They only believe O/F are ruining the show because the drama took away that dynamic. It's actually a powerful statement in favor of O/F and I don't even think they realize it lol

 

Haha, exactly. Their relationship is incredibly important. I don't think Oliver would have half the problems he's having this season if he was allowed to talk to Felicity, if he allowed her to help him like she used to. Once we get rid of all this manufactured angst between them and they're allowed to be Oliver and Felicity as they were before, I don't think there'll be any issues.

[statsgirl]

I agree their relationship is important to the show, but I don't think the writers know that. Right now, it's their scenes feel like having built an Olicity base for the show, they're throwing in scraps so people don't stop watching as they build up their BC, Atom and all the other characters they care about this season.  I don't think the writers think any of the arguments in that blog are important for the show.

 

Thus the narrative need (not the in character need; it's a bit different) to have Felicity and Oliver not giving each other emotional support at certain moments - because if things are good with them, there's no real need for her to turn to Ray.  At the same time, the show also has a narrative/emotional need to continue with the Oliver/Felicity romance, which is making the Ray/Felicity romance look shallow.

 

And the thing is, there's nothing wrong with shallow - frankly, I think the Ray/Felicity relationship would play out much better if everyone was treating it as just that, shallow - like Isabel/Oliver last year, or any number of casual hookups on television. X-Files let Scully do this in the middle of her ongoing will they/won't they with Mulder, for instance, and it worked fine. Or the Xander/Faith one time hook-up.  But instead, the show is trying to play it as romantic, which I don't think is working as well - primarily because to have this romance, they've had to force Felicity to leave Oliver at low moments.

The show would do a better job of convincing me that Ray is a viable romantic option if Oliver and Diggle, her two closest friends,  hadn't withdrawn their emotional support from Felicity, leaving her with no option but to go to Ray.  As it is, it's not really a romantic choice for Felicity, or even a friends choice, because she literally at this point has no one else to talk to.

 

I have trouble seeing the Felicity I've known for the first two seasons opting to have a shallow sexual relationship.  She's someone who has been fine on her own, self-sufficient and emotionally healthy.  Scully or Xander, I can see, but I think Felicity sleeping with her boss for the sake of having someone to sleep with would be OOC.  If that's all she wanted, why was she not doing it before?

 

Damn did Oliver really dismiss Felicity from discussions? Sigh. Where are they going with this? I'd never think he'd do that. Partners? Cripes.

-

Was the point they were trying to make that Felicity is now not even part of partner decisions or did it just come across that way and make her feel like that was happening.

I don't know if it was on purpose or if it was a result of sloppy writing, but the end result was to shut Felicity out of not only Oliver's emotional decisions but also out of any partner decisions by both Diggle and Oliver.  It's a three tiered lair now:  Oliver at the top, then Diggle, then Felicity, Roy and Laurel.

[apinknightmare]

I have trouble seeing the Felicity I've known for the first two seasons opting to have a shallow sexual relationship.  She's someone who has been fine on her own, self-sufficient and emotionally healthy.  Scully or Xander, I can see, but I think Felicity sleeping with her boss for the sake of having someone to sleep with would be OOC.  If that's all she wanted, why was she not doing it before?

 

We haven't seen anything so far that indicates this is a shallow sexual relationship - all indications seem to point to it being an actual relationship of some type for at least a little while. And just because we've seen her being self-sufficient and emotionally healthy thus far (not to mention the fact that we have seen ZERO of her private life outside of her work with Oliver & Co. before this season) doesn't preclude her from being lonely and heartbroken and making decisions that she thinks will help her not be either of those things for a little while. 

[statsgirl]

quarks was the one who suggested that it would have been better to have been written as a shallow sexual relationship rather than a real one which is what they seem to be going for.  I was responding to that.

[tv echo]

This is an interesting article on "shipping" (mentions O & F)...
"Shipping": the Good, the Bad, and the Maybe Someday
by Charlotte Kotterman ⋅ Posted on March 5th, 2015 at 7:37pm ⋅
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/03/06/shipping-the-good-the-bad-and-the-maybe-someday-2754405?lt_source=external,manual

 

FYI - I also found this informative...
Shipping
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/shipping

[CabotCove]

So I wouldn't say there's been a lack of Olicity this year.

 

I don't think it has been lacking either, with all things considering, they broke up.  In a typical show they shouldn't be interacting much but they still do quite a lot more, even though not as much as last season. Honestly Olicity is treated exceptionally here, Roy/Thea barely interacted after breaking up and other couples. Such is the danger with massively popular ships like Olicity, there is always pressure to show more, more and more until it engulfs a whole show or most of it. It its not perceived to be enough or too little: BACKLASH ensues.

 

Their relationship is incredibly important.

 

Their relationship is important, as any other relationship on the show really. What I don't subscribe to are the extreme views on either side. On one side they are those who think that the relationship is completely useless and  the other side that think that the show is completely dependent and made by this relationship. 

 

The show would do a better job of convincing me that Ray is a viable romantic option if Oliver and Diggle, her two closest friends,  hadn't withdrawn their emotional support from Felicity, leaving her with no option but to go to Ray

 

Except there is a bigger reason/problem at play here on why Felicity is not interacting with Oliver and the team as much, its being used as a device for main plot purposes and arguably due to the Olicity romance subplot. Likely if you remove Ray from the equation, the only thing that will change is that her scenes with Ray would be erased and Felicity would have less screen-time than she currently has. 

No scenes with Diggle as he is depicted as a staunch Oliver supporter, no scenes with Oliver since they are on a break and Oliver is being a jerk. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[statsgirl]

No scenes with Diggle as he is depicted as a staunch Oliver supporter, no scenes with Oliver since they are on a break and Oliver is being a jerk. 

There's no reason for Diggle to sudden be 100% Team Oliver though, and no reason for Felicity to suddenly not have any scenes with Roy when they were on such good terms in 3x02 and 3x06.  Felicity used to have three friends in the lair and now she  has none except when she's on Laurel propping duty.

 

Even after the break-up in 3x01, she and Oliver were still talking on 3x02.  And even after he shut her out in that episode, she was still down in the lair making jokes on her way to work.

 

That's all gone now and she's being shoved out the door with Laurel and Roy to go off to sleep with Ray.

[CabotCove]

There's no reason for Diggle to sudden be 100% Team Oliver though, and no reason for Felicity to suddenly not have any scenes with

Roy when they were on such good terms in 3x02 and 3x06

.

 

  Felicity did support ROy when he was fighting with Oliver though, in one of the latest episodes and they went out for a drink in 3.08 with the Flash team, I think.

IMO there hasn't been much  of their interaction all season so far, sure first half is slightly more, but its still too little for people in the same team. I would like to see more.

[romantic idiot]

I don't think it has been lacking either, with all things considering, they broke up.  In a typical show they shouldn't be interacting much but they still do quite a lot more, even though not as much as last season. Honestly Olicity is treated exceptionally here, Roy/Thea barely interacted after breaking up and other couples. Such is the danger with massively popular ships like Olicity, there is always pressure to show more, more and more until it engulfs a whole show or most of it. It its not perceived to be enough or too little: BACKLASH ensues.

 

Their relationship is important, as any other relationship on the show really. What I don't subscribe to are the extreme views on either side. On one side they are those who think that the relationship is completely useless and  the other side that think that the show is completely dependent and made by this relationship. 

Except there is a bigger reason/problem at play here on why Felicity is not interacting with Oliver and the team as much, its being used as a device for main plot purposes and arguably due to the Olicity romance subplot. Likely if you remove Ray from the equation, the only thing that will change is that her scenes with Ray would be erased and Felicity would have less screen-time than she currently has. 

No scenes with Diggle as he is depicted as a staunch Oliver supporter, no scenes with Oliver since they are on a break and Oliver is being a jerk. 

 

Regardless of the plot driven reason, IMO it does not work in text because they've made Felicity too dependent on his companionship.

[Danny Franks]

Because now he actually loves Felicity and knows it and it's not so easy to find comfort in meaningless sex, I imagine. Why is it so wrong for this guy to show some emotional growth? I know you seem to think it's emasculating, but he's being true to himself and how he feels. He's told her he loves her and he can't be with her, and for him that means not being with anyone if it isn't her. I don't see why that's so bad or emasculating, quite frankly. Bringing a date (assuming he doesn't, because for all we know Laurel could be is de facto wedding hang buddy) just because Felicity has one or to make himself feel better is something a previous season's Oliver would do.

 

 

 

Why is it considered emotionally immature to date someone you're not in love with? Why is there this bizarre fixation on television with dating only being healthy if it's between two people who have been in love for years and have been frustrated and hurt and tortured over it? That otherwise it's undesirable and wrong in some way, and something that a person needs to grow out of? None of that sounds healthy to me.

 

I think it is emasculating to have Oliver witness the woman he loves being happy with someone else. Deliberately so. It's a vicarious thrill for those fans who want him to suffer (and don't tell me they don't exist, because I know tumblr is full of them) and pine and be torn up with jealousy. It's a punishment for him because he upset Felicity. That's why this storyline is happening. So Oliver can finally realise that he's been an idiot and then go all out to 'win' the girl. I have no truck with any of it. I find it an awful storytelling device, and I don't think it promotes healthy attitudes to relationships at all.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Danny Franks

[dtissagirl]

There's talk in the spoiler thread about Oliver's celibacy maybe emasculating him, let me jump in.

I think if there's one single thing clear about Oliver this season is that he really doesn't want anyone but Felicity. And since he's decided he can't be with her for ~reasons, then he doesn't want anyone else at all.

Now, is it contrived? Hell yes. The could've been making out since he came back in 312, and nobody in the audience would even blink. But I legit don't see Oliver's current celibacy as him punishing himself. He doesn't want less than what he could have with Felicity.

Edited March 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

In S1 he was in love with Laurel and still dated other women. And how long is this going to go on, in his mind? Is he planning never to so much as go on a date for the rest of his life? Also, celibacy means no sex, it doesn't mean not so much as a date. It's making him look even more pathetic than he already did.

[Danny Franks]

In S1 he was in love with Laurel and still dated other women. And how long is this going to go on, in his mind? Is he planning never to so much as go on a date for the rest of his life? Also, celibacy means no sex, it doesn't mean not so much as a date. It's making him look even more pathetic than he already did.

 

It's just a part of the 'bad boy gets defanged' aspect of the story. They have to make him acceptable and worthy of the girl, so take away a lot of the elements of his character that might make people doubt that (and also, a lot of the time, elements that fans actually liked). See: Spike, Hook and Castle, to name but three.

 

If Oliver was still dating or showing any interest in other women, then it just means he's not worthy of Felicity, even if she were in a serious, committed relationship with someone else. Because Oliver used to sleep with women who he hadn't declared undying adoration for. As I've said before, the idea of Oliver being a serial dater never bothered me. What bothered me was that he went for women who were clearly really stupid choices. An unstable vigilante, a cop, his hostile business partner, his ex-girlfriend's sister. But then I suppose if he just dated perfectly nice women for a while, then amicably parted ways, it would make his behaviour less in need of 'fixing'.

[Chaser]

I think what he feels for Felicity is only part of it, a large part sure, but only part. He isn't in a situation that allows for a relationship of any kind, not with Thea Malcolm or Ras running around. Why get involved with someone when the only woman you want you chose not to be with and all of these outside forces? I think it shows growth.

Now in the future if he and Felicity are completely off the table and decided it will only ever be a What If and he is in a position where a relationship could happen, then sure he should move on.

[looptab]

Right, when he attempted those relationships with Helena or McKenna, there were not "estabilished -and known-threats", unlike now. And he attempted something with Laurel only when he thought he could be free from the mission after he stopped the Undertaking. Oliver didn't give much thought to MM after he kicked his ass in 109 beside brooding about his wounded ego in 110, at least not until the final episodes. (At least that I remember, but I could be wrong, season 1 is a blur to me).

[dtissagirl]

I guess this is something that works for me because I think the writers had to actually think about it before writing this season. They had to turn a request from Stephen into character development for Oliver.

 

I'm pretty sure Oliver is celibate this season for reasons that started out completely external to the narrative. Stephen told that story at NerdHQ about how he went to the writers to tell them that fans on his Facebook were appalled by Oliver's womanizing ways, and asked if the cavalcade of women could stop. He actually used the word "cavalcade", which tells me Stephen himself didn't like this facet of Oliver's. And more power to him if he can get something he believes in put into the narrative.

 

And I think what they actually thought out here was that all of Oliver's hook ups post-island were impulsive. All of them. Helena, McKenna and Laurel in S1; Isabel and Sara in S2. He jumped into bed with them -- he jumped into relationships with some of them -- without taking a second to think about what he was doing. Regardless of consequences. And now, with Felicity, he took an entire Summer of flirting but not doing anything about it, and only asked her out on a date after talking to Diggle about it [and, well, because they had to have that part of the show actually on screen and not the 2.5 comics]. So there's a clear contrast between all of the impulsive behavior back then wrt romance, and the deliberate, thought out decisions he's making about Felicity.

 

And his decision not to date her is as deliberate and thought out as him asking her out in 301. It's plot-driven, sure, because Oliver and Felicity can't get together until May Sweeps, or the CW explodes or something, but imo, this is legit character development.

 

And I admit that I get a little [a giant] kick out of them giving Oliver the typical romance tropes most writers give to lady characters this season. I like it when tropes are gender inverted, so bonus for me. I'm extremely okay with Oliver being "the girl" here, narratively speaking.

Edited March 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Danny Franks]

And I admit that I get a little [a giant] kick out of them giving Oliver the typical romance tropes most writers give to lady characters this season. I like it when tropes are gender inverted, so bonus for me. I'm extremely okay with Oliver being "the girl" here, narratively speaking.

 

We must watch completely different shows then, because to me, the guy being the sadsack singleton while the girl is out there dating other people and being considered awesome is what about ninety percent of the 'romance' storylines consist of in most shows I've seen.

 

As for Oliver's request for an end to the cavalcade of women, it's fine. But sadly, these writers appear unable to find any sort of middle ground so it's either 'Oliver sleeps with everyone' or 'Oliver has no social life whatsoever and appears to live underground and survive on cave mushrooms and beetles'.

[dtissagirl]

We must watch completely different shows then, because to me, the guy being the sadsack singleton while the girl is out there dating other people and being considered awesome is what about ninety percent of the 'romance' storylines consist of in most shows I've seen.

 

This might legit be a gendered bias in watching between you and me. :)  I'm extremely fine with ladies being out and about and awesome while dudebros pine for them. And I'm good with bad boys reforming ~for love stories. Womanizing protagonists won't ever get my sympathies unless they stop being womanizers, so the trope works for me like whoa. Different POVs, I guess.

[apinknightmare]

The thing that's different this season as opposed to other seasons with regards to Oliver's personal life is that he has been very straightforward with Felicity that he loves her and he wants to be with her but he feels like he can't. So to me, it's nice to see him not being impulsive with other women or even trying to move on, because I believe what he's telling her whereas I didn't believe he ever loved Laurel because of the things he did while he supposedly had feelings for her. I believe that he truly wants what he says he does and that he doesn't want to settle and really does feel like he can't be with someone (as opposed to last season where he told Felicity he didn't think he could be with someone he could truly care about and then went and slept with and got into a relationship with Sara - I thought he was just letting her down easy).

 

If Oliver were repeatedly a romantic sad sack or hadn't been in any kind of sexual or romantic relationship for years because he wanted Felicity, I'd see the issue here. But this is one area where he actually is being shown to have learned from his mistakes and being true to himself. He said he couldn't be with anyone, that he had to be alone. If he truly feels that way, then why on earth would he date? Why would he try to move on? So he could maybe fall in love with someone else he also couldn't have a relationship with? Because the issue isn't Felicity. It's HIM. He and Felicity aren't apart because she's with Ray, they're apart because Oliver's scared of what would happen if he let himself be himself. Is it stupid? Yeah. But it's what we're being told, and it's one of the few things they're actually sticking to in the narrative. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by apinknightmare

[SmallScreenDiva]

I wonder if Stephen truly went to the EPs and asked them to end Oliver's "cavalcade" of women, or if he asked them if there was any way not to get Oliver involved with any of the Lance sisters because of the outrage over the repeated sister-swapping and he just couched it and made it more general to apply to a "cavalcade" of women. I mean, he can't very well say banging the Lance sisters repeatedly has ruined/is ruining my character to folks at SDCC. There are some who still consider those relationships romantic.

 

Because there was no "cavalcade" in Season 2. There was that one night with Isabel and then the relationship with Sara. But that relationship created a massive backlash and appears to have played a role in the plunging ratings. I remember that Arrow was renewed shortly after that and there were FB photos of Canary and Arrow holding up 3 fingers each and most of the responses were something like "Sister-swapping, eww, gross" and "Yeah, it only took you 3 minutes to sink the damn show." That relationship ruined Oliver and Sara for some people. I'm in that bunch. Yes, I've read all the defense for Sara. I do not agree. You just don't do that to your sister. Actually, that applies to both Sara and Laurel. You don't do that to your sister. But, it seems this is a YMMV thing so I'll leave that alone.

 

That's why I'm really appreciating what they're doing with Oliver this season. I don't see it as him being a sad sack. I see it as him being true to his word. He told Felicity he wants to be with her but can't. How would it look if he starts a relationship with another woman? Then he's back to douchebag Oliver, the lying liar who lies. Because that's essentially what happened last season. The "Because of the life that I lead ... " excuse went out the window the moment he banged Sara. Oh, they've tried to spin what he said about Sara being able to take care of herself, but that's just BS.

[statsgirl]

This is the season of Oliver's identity crisis in which he decides he can't be Oliver Queen, he must be The Arrow.  Granted, they've screwed it up because in order to make the Thea plot work, which causes the Malcolm and Ra's plots, he has to love her and act as her brother, but as far as we the audience have been told, he's decided to be The Arrow and not Oliver Queen and that means not getting distracted by personal relationships.

 

His identity crisis is all about hurting himself by being celibate and cutting himself off from a woman who loves him.

 

If he can't be with the woman he loves for identity crisis reasons (it takes his focus off being The Arrow), he can't get into a relationship with anyone else either, not McKenna or Helena or some random woman he meets this season because the same reasoning applies -- being with her would take his focus off him job.

 

And to take some woman that he just met to Diggle's wedding would be rude  and also problematic because 1) where is is going to meet someone, he never goes out; 2) how is she going to feel if he runs off to do Arrow things in the middle of the event? and 3) she might get ideas about being in a relationship with him and that would cause a lot of complications. 

 

Also, I would really hope that there would be some sort of distaste for dating and sleeping with another woman when he's in love with Felicity.  Even James Bond was faithful that brief time he was in love.

 

It's not about torturing Oliver because he has to prove himself worthy of Felicity, it's about Oliver torturing himself because he's an idiot.

Edited March 13, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

It's not about torturing Oliver because he has to prove himself worthy of Felicity, it's about Oliver torturing himself because he's an idiot.

 

Ain't that the truth.

[lemotomato]

I guess I don't think she needs to tell him she loves him. I think that when it comes to love, she's pretty blind and doesn't acknowledge those feelings. I just don't think that Felicity knows just how much she loves Oliver. That or I think she's protecting herself from her feelings for Oliver by repressing the hell out of it. Because loving Oliver the way he is right now? It hurts. I can't blame her for that. I think it all depends on how the season will end in terms of Raylicity and Olicity.

You should read a meta I read on tumblr which is quite fantastic. Here's an excerpt and a link:

You should read the whole thing. It's pretty great.

 

I see this argument a lot in defense of Felicity moving on from Oliver, that's she's protecting herself from getting hurt by not admitting/realizing that she's in love with him. While I agree that there's nothing wrong with her not waiting for Oliver to get his act together, I wonder why she gets a pass/sympathy for doing essentially what Oliver is also doing-- running away from her feelings-- while Oliver is blasted for being stupid, having his head up his colon, etc. 

 

The meta is well thought out, but I would argue that it's all still conjecture at the moment. We haven't yet seen Felicity realize that she actually wants Oliver and not just Oliver-lite, aka Ray. What we have been shown is that she doesn't want to watch Oliver wait to die in the basement, she doesn't want to be a woman he loves, and that she's starting a relationship with some other guy. Even her comment of fantasizing that Oliver would come back from his near-death experience wanting to do things differently could be interpreted in a non-romantic way. Nothing in season 3 after the kiss in 3x01 indicates that Felicity still harbors romantic feelings for Oliver, so I'm getting a little tired of being reassured that Raylicity is just a roadblock or even a catalyst for Oliver and Felicity getting together. 

 

MG described Olicity as "one step forward, two steps back" this season, but I haven't seen any steps forward at all, from either of them. Oliver came back from the dead completely unchanged, despite Felicity being his last thought before he died, and Felicity seems done with his bullshit and has moved on. I don't know how, or even if they're going to fix them, but I'm not nearly as optimistic as some Olicity fans about them ending the season together. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

I see this argument a lot in defense of Felicity moving on from Oliver, that's she's protecting herself from getting hurt by not admitting/realizing that she's in love with him. While I agree that there's nothing wrong with her not waiting for Oliver to get his act together, I wonder why she gets a pass/sympathy for doing essentially what Oliver is also doing-- running away from her feelings-- while Oliver is blasted for being stupid, having his head up his colon, etc. 

 

Well, Oliver's scared to be/ thinks he can't be himself and therefore is unable to be in a relationship with her. Has Felicity ever told him she didn't think she could be with him (when he himself was ready to commit to her? <---ETA)? She was ready to get into a relationship - you can tell by that hopeful little "Oliver, are you..." that she managed to get out after he told her that maybe he was wrong and that he could be with someone he could really care about right before the restaurant blew up during their date. He removed himself from the situation because he was scared - he flat-out told Felicity he was while they were on the steps of Queen Consolidated (RIP) after he lost his bid for the company.

 

So Oliver is legit running from his feelings by trying to lose himself in the hood. Felicity isn't doing that.

 

Maybe she's not letting herself admit that she loves Oliver, but how exactly is that affecting their relationship? He's the one constantly backing off. She's moving on with Ray (a questionable choice, yes, but it is the one the show has provided her with) because Oliver isn't an option for her - he took himself out of the running several times so far. So she's either hiding or not acknowledging feelings for a person who has repeatedly told her he loves her but that he's not going to do anything about it. So... what choice does she have? Admit she loves him and be miserable about it even though there is absolutely nothing she can do about it, or bury it down deep and try to move on?  

Edited March 13, 2015 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

 

Has Felicity ever told him she didn't think she could be with him?

 

After running down the littany of women hurt by Oliver, Felicity saying to his face  "I don't want to be a woman you love".  That sounds a lot like she doesn't think or even wants to be with him. 

 

If I were Oliver, I would have taken it as a rejection of him and any kind of relationship now or in the future.

Edited March 13, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

After running down the littany of women hurt by Oliver, Felicity saying to his face  "I don't want to be a woman you love".  That sounds a lot like she doesn't think or even wants to be with him. 

 

If I were Oliver, I would have taken it as a rejection of him and any kind of relationship now or in the future.

 

Fair point, but I meant in the way that he was ready to get into a relationship and she was the one who said that she couldn't. That's something I think could be likened to what Oliver's doing right now. She hasn't done that. 

[lemotomato]

So Oliver is legit running from his feelings by trying to lose himself in the hood. Felicity isn't doing that.

 

Maybe she's not letting herself admit that she loves Oliver, but how exactly is that affecting their relationship? He's the one constantly backing off. She's moving on with Ray (a questionable choice, yes, but it is the one the show has provided her with) because Oliver isn't an option for her - he took himself out of the running several times so far. So she's either hiding or not acknowledging feelings for a person who has repeatedly told her he loves her but that he's not going to do anything about it. So... what choice does she have? Admit she loves him and be miserable about it even though there is absolutely nothing she can do about it, or bury it down deep and try to move on?  

No, I totally agree that her moving on with Ray makes sense (even though I really don't like him). What I have issues with is the idea that Olicity not happening right now is all Oliver's fault. From what we've seen, Felicity has abandonment issues herself that she hasn't dealt with and even if Oliver suddenly has an epiphany and changes his mind about them being together, I really don't think she's just going to fall back into his arms like some people seem to believe. 

[Ang]

I see this argument a lot in defense of Felicity moving on from Oliver, that's she's protecting herself from getting hurt by not admitting/realizing that she's in love with him. While I agree that there's nothing wrong with her not waiting for Oliver to get his act together, I wonder why she gets a pass/sympathy for doing essentially what Oliver is also doing-- running away from her feelings-- while Oliver is blasted for being stupid, having his head up his colon, etc.

The meta is well thought out, but I would argue that it's all still conjecture at the moment. We haven't yet seen Felicity realize that she actually wants Oliver and not just Oliver-lite, aka Ray. What we have been shown is that she doesn't want to watch Oliver wait to die in the basement, she doesn't want to be a woman he loves, and that she's starting a relationship with some other guy. Even her comment of fantasizing that Oliver would come back from his near-death experience wanting to do things differently could be interpreted in a non-romantic way. Nothing in season 3 after the kiss in 3x01 indicates that Felicity still harbors romantic feelings for Oliver, so I'm getting a little tired of being reassured that Raylicity is just a roadblock or even a catalyst for Oliver and Felicity getting together.

MG described Olicity as "two steps forward, three steps back" this season, but I haven't seen any steps forward at all, from either of them. Oliver came back from the dead completely unchanged, despite Felicity being his last thought before he died, and Felicity seems done with his bullshit and has moved on. I don't know how, or even if they're going to fix them, but I'm not nearly as optimistic as some Olicity fans about them ending the season together.

Fun post; it got a lot of mixed reactions from me. :-)

My issue with your first paragraph is that, as apinknightmare already said, Oliver had a choice, Felicity has been left to simply deal with what Oliver had already made up his mind to do. Thus by "running from her feelings" and at least going through the motions (or more) of moving on, she's also taking back whatever power and control she can from an unpleasant if not unfair situation.

I agree with everything in your second paragraph; without behind the scenes talk, it's no readily apparent what Felicity's feelings for Oliver may be.

I hadn't heard that MG quote; if that's the case I'm more convinced than ever that they won't end the season together and will rather be on worse footing than they were on in season 2. And yeah, the only "steps forward" we've seen have been a partial date and an unrequited declaration (or two) of affections that really left no room for requiting.

[catrox14]

Fair point, but I meant in the way that he was ready to get into a relationship and she was the one who said that she couldn't. That's something I think could be likened to what Oliver's doing right now. She hasn't done that. 

 

I'm not really seeing a distinction, other than how it's been said.

 

 

If Felicity had said yes to be with Oliver in 3.1, why is she willing to be a woman that Oliver loves then but not now? I would think Oliver would still be making the same decisions because nothing else would have changed. The only difference is that if Felicity decided she couldn't be a woman that Oliver loved then she still has Ray to fall back on.

 

I'm just not really seeing why Oliver is 100% to blame here

Edited March 14, 2015 by catrox14

[NumberCruncher]

I wouldn't put too much stock into MG's quotes because I'm not convinced he really knows what certain words or sayings really mean (i.e. "one step forward, two steps back" means they're moving backwards not forward but he was using it to mean they were progressing). We all know that he says a lot of things that don't necessarily mean what we think they mean. Heaven knows his definition of "epic", "Emmy-worthy", "game changer", etc. certainly don't end up being any of those things.

Edited March 14, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[apinknightmare]

I'm not really seeing a distinction, other than how it's been said.

 

The distinction is that Oliver turned Felicity down when she was ready to get into a relationship with him - he's running from his feelings. 

 

Felicity told him she didn't want to be a woman he loved after telling him that she fantasized that he'd come home and want to do things differently, part of which included being in a relationship with her. He wasn't offering that - he was still unwilling to be with her. The OP asked why Felicity was getting a pass for doing the same thing Oliver's doing. She's not - the situation would be comparable if she turned him down after he was willing to commit - she didn't.

Edited March 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

 

 

If Felicity had said yes to be with Oliver in 3.1, why is she willing to be a woman that Oliver loves then but not now?

 

Because at that point he hadn't told her he loved her repeatedly and followed it up by either telling her he still couldn't be with her or leaving or generally still being unwilling to commit? Because he hadn't teamed up with a dude who drugged his sister to kill his ex-girlfriend? Oliver gave Felicity hope at the end of 3x09, but when she realized nothing had changed and that he was doing dumb shit on top of that, she finally put the kibosh on it. Eleven episodes after she asked him to stop dangling maybes and he still did. That could be why. 

 

 

I'm just not really seeing why Oliver is 100% to blame here

 

And I never argued that Oliver was 100% to blame, just that Felicity isn't getting a free pass for behaving the same way Oliver is, because the situations aren't the same. 

[catrox14]

The distinction is that Oliver turned Felicity down when she was ready to get into a relationship with him - he's running from his feelings. 

 

Felicity told him she didn't want to be a woman he loved after telling him that she fantasized that he'd come home and want to do things differently, part of which included being in a relationship with her. He wasn't offering that - he was still unwilling to be with her. The OP asked why Felicity was getting a pass for doing the same thing Oliver's doing. She's not - the situation would be comparable if she turned him down after he was willing to commit - she didn't.

 

I made an edit to my post.

 

She essentially did turn him down though when she went to Ray which Oliver saw. Felicity didn't really waste any time setting her sights on Ray.  Why would Oliver pursue her when she clearly moved on when he was supposedly dead? 

[apinknightmare]

She essentially did turn him down though when she went to Ray which Oliver saw. Felicity didn't really waste any time setting her sights on Ray.  Why would Oliver pursue her when she clearly moved on when he was supposedly dead? 

 

Right after he said over the comms that he knew what it was like to want someone and not be able to be with them? That he had to be alone? 

 

Why would Oliver tell her he loved her if he thought she was with Ray? Why would he think that wouldn't change things for her when he came back? 

[wonderwall]

She essentially did turn him down though when she went to Ray which Oliver saw. Felicity didn't really waste any time setting her sights on Ray.  Why would Oliver pursue her when she clearly moved on when he was supposedly dead? 

 

No. She went to her office after Oliver (in a round about way) told Felicity that he could never be with anyone. Felicity was in tears in the foundry and she decided to go to her office for some time alone. That's when Ray came along and then he kissed her. Felicity didn't back down. Why would she? She doesn't owe Oliver anything. And Oliver essentially crushed Felicity's hope of ever being with him. 

 

Felicity didn't seek out Ray. Felicity didn't kiss Ray. Felicity probably wasn't even thinking about Ray until he pranced into her office. 

 

Felicity didn't turn down Oliver in episode 7. It was quite the opposite. Just because Oliver changed his mind a bit at the end and sought Felicity out, doesn't mean that Felicity rejected him. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[catrox14]

Fair point that she didn't seek him out but she didn't rebuff him either. The only thing Oliver knows is that he saw her kissing Ray. Felicity still has yet to tell him she loves him, even though he has said it 3 times to her. She could have said before he went off to die or what have.

 

Supposing Felicity had said yes right away to Oliver and had told him she loves him, I don't think it would have changed Oliver's choices IMO re Malcolm and Thea, going off to fight Ra's and being "killed". And it wouldn't have changed her saying "she doesn't want to be a woman he loves" because they things he did bothered and still would have happened.  Oliver made a choice for himself that affected her but he isn't compelled to be with her and he isn't compelling her to wait around for him either that I could see. Telling her he loves her, is not demanding she wait for him either. 

 

I'm not saying she can't be with she wants to be with, I just wish it wasn't Ray for reasons I won't repeat.

 

I guess I just don't see that Oliver has been this horribly shitty person to Felicity nor has Felicity been horribly shitty to him.  I do think Felicity telling Oliver he doesn't want to be loved by him, is pretty harsh but not the end of the world for them.

Edited March 14, 2015 by catrox14

[wonderwall]

Would anyone really tell a person that they love them after they repeatedly told them that they can't be with them? (super confusing sentence, I apologize). Because I don't know any sane person who'd do that. 

 

And I think Felicity thoroughly believed that Oliver would come back. "I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that you can beat him..."

Edited March 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

 

This might legit be a gendered bias in watching between you and me. :)  I'm extremely fine with ladies being out and about and awesome while dudebros pine for them. And I'm good with bad boys reforming ~for love stories. Womanizing protagonists won't ever get my sympathies unless they stop being womanizers, so the trope works for me like whoa. Different POVs, I guess.

I am a woman and a militant feminist, and I can't see much less gender-celebrating than the idea that it's great when women get theirs and have fun, and terrible when men do.  And that women should not give in and reform for nice guys who love them, but men should, because good boys reforming bad girls is controlling but good girls reforming bad boys is awesome and female-empowering.  

 

 

[Genki]

Right after he said over the comms that he knew what it was like to want someone and not be able to be with them? That he had to be alone? 

 

Why would Oliver tell her he loved her if he thought she was with Ray? Why would he think that wouldn't change things for her when he came back? 

 

Of all the time that Oliver backed away from a relationship with Felicity, this is the one that think should not be used as a valid example of Oliver rejecting Felicity.

 

Oliver was trying to talk down a mentally unstable killer and even if the audience is aware that Carrie's psychiatrist said he must be "sincere" or "honest" Felicity doesn't know this, she wasn't on the comms at that stage. So I feel from her point of view it's not an outright rejection.

[Ang]

We must watch completely different shows then, because to me, the guy being the sadsack singleton while the girl is out there dating other people and being considered awesome is what about ninety percent of the 'romance' storylines consist of in most shows I've seen.

As for Oliver's request for an end to the cavalcade of women, it's fine. But sadly, these writers appear unable to find any sort of middle ground so it's either 'Oliver sleeps with everyone' or 'Oliver has no social life whatsoever and appears to live underground and survive on cave mushrooms and beetles'.

While I disagree at least partly with your point (I have a hard time seeing a handsome white male built like a quarterback as a "sad sack" and think that self-imposed celibacy is a completely different beast than 80s or 90s teen romcom celibacy) I have to give kudos for the imagery in that last line. It's my favorite.

[wonderwall]

Oliver was trying to talk down a mentally unstable killer and even if the audience is aware that Carrie's psychiatrist said he must be "sincere" or "honest" Felicity doesn't know this, she wasn't on the comms at that stage. So I feel from her point of view it's not an outright rejection.

 

I'd agree with this point, but it obviously affected Felicity though didn't it? Felicity was in tears when Oliver said what he said to Carrie. I think it's because she believed Oliver was telling the truth. Why? It isn't something she hadn't heard before. She heard it after Oliver slept with Isabel, she heard it in season 3 of episode 1... Why should she think he's not telling the truth when there's a precedent for Oliver believing that he can't be with anyone? 

[catrox14]

 

Would anyone really tell a person that they love them after they repeatedly told them that they can't be with them? (super confusing sentence, I apologize). Because I don't know any sane person who'd do that.

 

No one said sanity has to do with love especially in Arrow.  :)

 

I don't understand why if Felicity loves him that she can't just tell him that. Are the words so precious that she will only reserve them for someone who commits to being in a relationship with her? To my mind, that's like a quid pro quo almost.  Like it's only when Oliver agrees to being with her that she can say she loves him, but here is Oliver, exposing himself and his vulnerabilities knowing he likely won't be able to be with her.  But I guess I'm different in that if I love someone I usually tell them no matter if it's going to cost me the relationship or not. Or if I just need to tell them without it being attached to anything going forward.  I've been burned saying it but I've also been told I'm loved as well. The relationships didn't necessarily pan out but it wasn't because feelings were unclear.

Edited March 14, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

Of all the time that Oliver backed away from a relationship with Felicity, this is the one that think should not be used as a valid example of Oliver rejecting Felicity.

 

Oliver was trying to talk down a mentally unstable killer and even if the audience is aware that Carrie's psychiatrist said he must be "sincere" or "honest" Felicity doesn't know this, she wasn't on the comms at that stage. So I feel from her point of view it's not an outright rejection.

 

I don't think it was a rejection, it was just a reiteration of what he'd already told her, which surely hurt her to hear again. And I think it affected her interaction with Ray later that evening, like all things Oliver does tend to do because plot. 

[HighHopes]

I don't understand why if Felicity loves him that she can't just tell him that. Are the words so precious that she will only reserve them for someone who commits to being in a relationship with her

 

 

It's still a bit of headcanon but Felicity does have abandonment issues. Her father left her at a young age and Cooper "died" too. After experiencing those to things she's probably careful with who she says "I love you" to. And with a good reason. 

 

Oliver has also only told her he loves her in the same sentence that they can't ever be together. He cares for her, but he can't be with her. He loves her, but he's going off to his death. What sane person would tell that person they love them back? All Oliver has done since telling her he loves her is hurt her. Starting with 2x23 and giving her the syringe and making her think it was all an act. She hasn't had a time where she's emotionally ready to tell him she loves him back. 

 

When should she have said it? When he told her they can't be together in 3x01? When in 3x07 he said that he had to be alone forever? When he came back from the dead and still said he could never be with her? Does Felicity care about Oliver? Yes of course she does. But Felicity is a very caring person. She cares about everyone. 

[dtissagirl]

Oliver was trying to talk down a mentally unstable killer and even if the audience is aware that Carrie's psychiatrist said he must be "sincere" or "honest" Felicity doesn't know this, she wasn't on the comms at that stage. So I feel from her point of view it's not an outright rejection.

I'd agree with this if the script hadn't made a point to comment on it, by having Diggle tell Oliver that Felicity heard everything he said. That's what made everything Oliver told Carrie be true, and be about Felicity.