Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Orion]

From the John Diggle thread.

 

Felicity and Diggle are legit heroes but they are part of Team Arrow.  They are IMO all one unit, so if there are ever other heroes being referred to as coming to Starling, I wouldn't count them because they are already counted. 

 

Dig and Felicity don't stop being capable if Oliver is not around, but I don't see them having individual motivation to go off on their own.  It's always been about enabling Oliver to make his mission happen.  No Oliver and I think they would rethink the best way they could continue to be heroes.

 

I think they were part of Team Arrow but I think the story is trying move them out of the Team Arrow partnership and into supporting player roles, this is going to get long - I apologize in advance. And I think that idiotic-rage inducing article from Comicbook.com is a by-product of how the narrative this season is failing, not only John Diggle but the whole of Team Arrow.

 

In season one the story sets up Oliver alone. He's carrying out his mission on his terms without any support. Pretty quickly he brings in John Diggle by using what happened to Digg's brother as a reason he should join his crusade. Diggle comes on board not because he believes that they should follow along with Oliver's book but because he doesn't want what happened to his brother to happen to another family and he wants to help save Oliver; like he couldn't save his brother. The story gets rolling with those 2 people, together but not a team. Oliver is still doing pretty much what he wants and Diggle is trying not to knock him upside the head when he does something stupid. Enter Felicity. She helps Oliver but very explicitly says she is not joining his crusade - she's there to save Walter and then she wants out. The season continues along with this group slowly growing closer but still not a team. Oliver lets them both down, doesn't listen to their advice and only does so when they drag him kicking and screaming (figuratively). We get to the end of Season one, Walter is found, Diggle comes back to the team and Felicity stays on. The group works together on equal footing to stop the Undertaking. Everyone has a role to play - plans are made and talked about with each member of the group contributing. Felicity is hacking Merlyn Global and helping to disarm the device, Diggle is Oliver's backup and brother in arms, and Oliver is fighting the big bad. End Season.

 

Season 2 picks ups just about where season one lets off in terms of team. These are equals.  Three members that are essential and fill in each others weaknesses. Sara shows up but doesn't stay and 2A is spent reinforcing the partnership. Then season 2b happens and the narrative tries to move Felicity and Diggle out of their partner chairs and into support positions. Sara is moved into the slot of partner to the Arrow and those two team up to take on the bad guys. The focus shifts from the three to those two. They fight side by side. The arguments about how to handle situations moves from Team Arrow arguments to Sara/Oliver arguments. Felicity and Diggle are often the moderators or Oliver's support. The feeling of team - while still there is shifting. Diggle gets pushed back into the Arrow cave and is given a Suicide Squad storyline while Felicity is either forgotten or left to give stupid lines like, "Please save Oliver."  The writers almost have to move them out of the roles they had them in (working really well if I might add) because with those three as partners there really is no need for anyone else, so they have to step back (in the writers narrative not in my opinion). Moving on to the end of Season 2, Sara leaves and the partnership falls back into the place. It's the three core players teaming up to take out the big bad again. Diggle is once again positioned as Oliver's backup and even though he's not fighting beside Oliver this time his contribution to the battle is extremely important way. Felicity is pulled back into the story, again given a critical role to play even before she injects Slade and we close out the season once again feeling the bond between those three.

 

But now we have the start of season 3 and the writers desperate need to make other people matter to the story. So the writers again move Diggle and Felicity back into support roles. These are not the people that are heroes like Oliver. These are people sitting in the Arrowcave. Roy is moved into the role of fighting next to Oliver, just like Sara and the conversations and planning that we use to see between Oliver, Felicity and Diggle as Team Arrow are completely taken out of the show. At one point I counted and Felicity didn't even speak to Diggle from 3X01 when she snapped at him while trying to locate the 3 mob bosses until 3X05 when she told Diggle that her mother loves babies. While both still have extremely important roles to play - the mentor and the love interest are critical archetypes in the heroes journey. This was not the two heroes we had for 2 seasons and it's why I can't really blame the idiot that wrote that article about John Diggle needing to die or retire.

 

The writers have set it up that costumes will be more important to the story then Felicity and Diggle and in order to make room for the leather and masks these two need to be moved aside - into unheroic storylines like love interest and mentor/devils advocate/life example leader. I view Felicity and Diggle as heroes, I view them as equals to Oliver but the writers are, whether intentionally or unintentionally making them less. I hate what that person said about Digg because the military man that was at Oliver's side deserves more respect but he's not wrong that the 3 future heroes he named are being set up to be more important to the story. And the writers need to wake up and realize that's the message they are sending and that's not the message I want to hear.  The narrative is drawing a firm line between Team Arrow the original Three and what the Future Team Arrow might be.  It's my belief that the writers will circle back around to the core 3 again for the season finale because they seem to want to end each season reinforcing that dynamic which is why I guessed that

the 3 heroes at the end of the season they were talking about were Felicity, Diggle and Roy. But the writers putting more importance on comic canon heroes than on the heroes that they have narratively shown for 2 seasons is beyond concerning and the Diggle article was a real wake up call for me about what the side effects are, beyond a show that I don't enjoy.

[Morrigan2575]

Orion beautiful post and I agree with most of it but I do have a question.

Is it the writers or the fans or both? Because as we've debated in 3 threads so far tonight. There is a distinct impression with fans that "heroes" gets automatically translated to "superheroes" which then becomes mask/costumed people only.

So basically Thea, Roy, Ray and Laurel who all have comicbook counterparts that wear costumes are presumed to be heroes or potential heroes. Moreso, then Diggle and Felicity even though Roy is the only one that has actually done anything really heroic and it took him 1.5 seasons to get there.

I don't see how the writing is putting emphasis on Ray or Thea at all. Laurel is maybe 25% writing 25% assumption that Laurel will take over Sara's role in 3B 50% EP/KC interviews. Roy is most definitely getting the writing that puts him in the hero/partner role, replacing Sara from 2B and pushing Diggle to the side.

I'm not watching but, it would be an absolute same if the show ends S3 saying that only costumed people are heroes no matter their skills or experience level. Or that all you need to be a hero is to put on a costume. I mean think about it...what exactly makes Ray (who is basically Felicity with money) a hero? Because he finally gets that ATOM suit to work? Ray Tech Genius with suit = hero/equal to Oliver, Felicity tech genius no suit equals Support only?

Edited December 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[DrSpaceman10]

Then season 2b happens and the narrative tries to move Felicity and Diggle out of their partner chairs and into support positions. Sara is moved into the slot of partner to the Arrow and those two team up to take on the bad guys. The focus shifts from the three to those two. They fight side by side. The arguments about how to handle situations moves from Team Arrow arguments to Sara/Oliver arguments. Felicity and Diggle are often the moderators or Oliver's support. The feeling of team - while still there is shifting. Diggle gets pushed back into the Arrow cave and is given a Suicide Squad storyline while Felicity is either forgotten or left to give stupid lines like, "Please save Oliver."  The writers almost have to move them out of the roles they had them in (working really well if I might add) because with those three as partners there really is no need for anyone else, so they have to step back (in the writers narrative not in my opinion). Moving on to the end of Season 2, Sara leaves and the partnership falls back into the place. It's the three core players teaming up to take out the big bad again. 

 

I completely agree with this part. I think that's the best description of the difference between Team Arrow in 2A and 2B that I've read.

[Orion]

Orion beautiful post and I agree with most of it but I do have a question.

Is it the writers or the fans or both? Because as we've debated in 3 threads so far tonight. There is a distinct impression with fans that "heroes" gets automatically translated to "superheroes" which then becomes mask/costumed people only.

So basically Thea, Roy, Ray and Laurel who all have comicbook counterparts that wear costumes are presumed to be heroes or potential heroes. Moreso, then Diggle and Felicity even though Roy is the only one that has actually done anything really heroic and it took him 1.5 seasons to get there.

I don't see how the writing is putting emphasis on Ray or Thea at all. Laurel is maybe 25% writing 25% assumption that Laurel will take over Sara's role in 3B 50% EP/KC interviews. Roy is most definitely getting the writing that puts him in the hero/partner role, replacing Sara from 2B and pushing Diggle to the side.

I'm not watching but, it would be an absolute same if the show ends S3 saying that only costumed people are heroes no matter their skills or experience level. Or that all you need to be a hero is to put on a costume. I mean think about it...what exactly makes Ray (who is basically Felicity with money) a hero? Because he finally gets that ATOM suit to work? Ray Tech Genius with suit = hero/equal to Oliver, Felicity tech genius no suit equals Support only?

 

IMO it's a little bit of both the fans and the narrative/writers. You can see the slight of hand working. My husband describes it as "feeling the script". You can feel the writers trying to pull us all there even when the story doesn't want to go in that directions for a variety of reasons.  The organic feel of the core three Team Arrow is gone replaced by a grinding turn toward Team Arrow plus other members. 

 

Look for me Laurel is never going to be Team Arrow. She could cure diseases while rescuing puppies and yelling truth bombs to anyone that will listen to make up for the lying and I'm still going to sit here with my arms crossed yelling back, "you can't sit with us".  So ignoring Laurel. They gave Ray a sad story and had him tell Felicity he wants to save the city. Roy has some training and I honestly have no idea what they are going to do with Thea, she probably has the most open ended storyline of everyone.

 

I think fans are just trying to read into what the writers are doing and are drawing conclusions. If you are a fan of the comics then you might read what the writers are presenting as in favor of the comic team up you are hoping for and I think there are enough nuggets to suggest that's possible. There is also a narrative lacking where the writers acknowledge that Diggle and Felicity are heroes in their own right so I can't really blame people who ignore all their heroic actions. At some point it really needs to be addressed hopefully sooner rather than later. Do mask make a hero and if so why don't Felicity and Diggle have them and if having a leather suit doesn't matter why do the writers keep trying to shove Felicity and Diggle off to the side when they get a new toy to play with.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not watching but, it would be an absolute same if the show ends S3 saying that only costumed people are heroes no matter their skills or experience level. Or that all you need to be a hero is to put on a costume. I mean think about it...what exactly makes Ray (who is basically Felicity with money) a hero? Because he finally gets that ATOM suit to work? Ray Tech Genius with suit = hero/equal to Oliver, Felicity tech genius no suit equals Support only?

 

The show has never once ever implied that only costumed people are heroes, and I'd be shocked if the season ended that way. In fact, it's gone out of the way to show that people who don't wear costumes are incredibly brave and heroic - especially where Felicity is concerned. How many times has she saved the day? She's brains and not braun, and the fact that people underestimate her has worked to her advantage on more than one occasion. Generally speaking, Felicity is support, but the show has never implied that she's just support. 

 

Look, people are going to use "hero" and "superhero" interchangeably, and the interpretation of interviews and whatnot is all subjective. Fact is, I care what I'm being shown. Arrow has a lot of faults. It's got too much going on (as per usual), and Diggle and Felicity oftentimes are on the short end of the stick when it comes to cast bloat, but it has always shown both of them as extremely capable and heroic. I don't care what words anyone uses to describe them when they're talking off the cuff in interviews outside of the show- I care that Diggle can handle himself, and that he keeps his moral code when dealing with the Deadshots of the world, and that he continues to fight the good fight. I care that Felicity isn't damseled, and that she keeps using her brains to get herself and her team out of trouble, and that she keeps putting herself out there without regard to her personal safety. Support or not, costume or not, title or not, Arrow has always shown these two as being heroes, and it's in bigger trouble than we thought if that changes. 

[wonderwall]

See I can totally see how the writers are pulling away focus from the Original 3 and it shows in the quality of the entire season. The best episodes/highest rated were the ones that featured more of Team Arrow (1, 5, 8, 9) and less of Roy and Laurel. It's just not compelling, and it's not natural storytelling to me. It's the writers essentially forcing people to like these characters by giving them more importance than they actually need. I mean, yes, they're building Laurel up to be BC. But what then? What will she do when she does become BC? Will she take over Digg/Felicity's screentime? Will she play sidekick to Oliver? Will she even be a part of TA? Laurel has no purpose on the show once she does become BC. She simply doesn't bring in a new dynamic to the show nor does she bring anything new to the table in regards to the team. 

 

But I kind of get why the writers are moving away from TA for now. It's because they need to build Laurel and Roy up. While I don't like that we have to essentially halt the storyline just so they can catch up, what's done is done. I'm pretty sure that the next 3 episodes will heavily feature Roy and Laurel over Diggle/Felicity which just irks me. 

[Password]

At one point I counted and Felicity didn't even speak to Diggle from 3X01 when she snapped at him while trying to locate the 3 mob bosses until 3X05 when she told Diggle that her mother loves babies.

This is what bothers me so much this season. Diggle and Felicity's relationship was one of the best things that came out of the second half of season 2 and now it's just...gone. They barely look/talk to each other. At one point in season 2 I would've said Diggle was Felicity's best friend but now. Jeez.

[wingster55]

I can't put Diggle and Felicity in the same sentence in terms of being short changed. Diggle imo is getting it far worse. 

I'd say everyone besides Oliver is getting a bit underused..Roy and Felicity are just getting more than the other 3-4. 

 

Diggle and Felicity's relationship was one of the best things that came out of the second half of season 2 and now it's just...gone.

 

What relationship? One or two scenes every few episode? 

Edited December 27, 2014 by wingster55

[Password]

What relationship? One or two scenes every few episode?

Whilst Oliver and Sara were playing bickering heroes Diggle and Felicity were allowed to show how they care and support one another. No it wasn't an every episode thing, but it certainly gave the impression that they were close. Take for example the Suicide Squad ep. Diggle was the only person whom gave a crap about Felicity's safety. And she in turn returned the sentiment by actually saying she loved him for it. It's not continuous, hours of on screen friendship that makes it. It's important moments in between that grant us clarity about where relationships stand.

And that, is gone.

[Orion]

I don't care what words anyone uses to describe them when they're talking off the cuff in interviews outside of the show- I care that Diggle can handle himself, and that he keeps his moral code when dealing with the Deadshots of the world, and that he continues to fight the good fight. I care that Felicity isn't damseled, and that she keeps using her brains to get herself and her team out of trouble, and that she keeps putting herself out there without regard to her personal safety. Support or not, costume or not, title or not, Arrow has always shown these two as being heroes, and it's in bigger trouble than we thought if that changes. 

 

I disagree that what is said outside of the show isn't important. I agree that we have seen heroic moments for each of the characters but the way they speak about Felicity and Diggle outside of the show does matter, imo.  If we are meant to see them as heroes why hasn't there been on screen acknowledge of their sacrifice? Why isn't it said on screen that these two are heroes? Why did Oliver give Slade some credit for helping him become a hero but the people who were really responsible for that transformation never given that moment? Why have I had to hear, "Laurel Lance always trying to save the world," now twice but never once about Diggle and Felicity? I have to imagine that their is a reason that even Roy got a, "good job out there tonight" and Felicity and Diggle haven't.  What are writers waiting for to give credit to these characters? After 3 years with nothing honoring what they do for Starling City there has to be a reason. Are they saving it for some super-duper hero moment? Are they waiting until they do put them in costume? I don't know but the way they speak about them, the lack of acknowledgement in story does speak to the viewers whether they intend it to or not and that's why we get idiotic articles like the one on Diggle where the author says, "he has a military background and a gun." Like that's something the viewers can dismiss because the writers don't point that out within the narrative, they don't acknowledge the agency that his history should afford him.

I think for people who don't want to look for the heroic moments that Felicity and Diggle have it is easy to overlook and it gives the "comic canon" crowd an out to say that they are not legit heroes. I do think what they say and don't say both in story and out matters.  YMMV

[calliope1975]

It would have been so much more poignant and powerful to me if Laurel had invited all of Team Arrow to Capt. Lance's speech in 3.1. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but Felicity's breaking federal laws helping him. She gets caught, she's not even an accessory, she's going directly to federal prison. (This is entirely a supposition based on my TV legal training.) Digg's physically saved Oliver's life multiple times. They deserved to know the task force was being disbanded, too. 

[BkWurm1]

I have to imagine that their is a reason that even Roy got a, "good job out there tonight" and Felicity and Diggle haven't.  What are writers waiting for to give credit to these characters? After 3 years with nothing honoring what they do for Starling City there has to be a reason.

 

I don't think they feel like they need special thanks anymore than Oliver needs it from external sources.  It would be nice, but Roy needs a pat on the back, Felicity and Diggle already know their worth. 

 

It would have been so much more poignant and powerful to me if Laurel had invited all of Team Arrow to Capt. Lance's speech in 3.1 [snip] They deserved to know the task force was being disbanded, too.

 

Agree 100%.  I've groused about Laurel cutting them out of the moment since day one.  The team had been hunting all of them.  They are collectively the Arrow. 

 

Now on to a rather long ramble.  I was trying to assess of what's happened on the show in regards our core three and what I think is going on (and why)

I do think that the show runners purposely fractured the core three with a few purposes.  Make everyone question who they are and what they are doing and where they want to be in the future. Show that with balance, you can have it all.  Open some space for Roy.  Remake the team in the end, stronger (eventually) but perhaps in a completely different configuration.  It's the last one that is of concern. 

They drove a wedge between Oliver and Felicity reducing them practically to co-workers and sending her looking for something outside of the team to make her feel fulfilled.  She can be a hero without him and find fulfillment in her day job too.  Even perhaps a supposedly viable alternative love (yeah right)   Oliver loves her., but thinking and dreaming of a future is a distraction to being the Arrow.  So Oliver has to figure out who he wants to be.  And Felicity has to decide ... I don't know what yet, that all depends on if Oliver comes back an idiot or not.  This storyline is probably going o be dragged out too long but in the end, I expect that Felicity is going to have Oliver's back and I expect them to evolve as partners on multiple levels.

They also drew a line between Oliver and Diggle, one that says Diggle has readjusted his priorities and the team and the mission no longer tops it...but then they walked back that whole plot line by Diggle saying him going out in the field is a temporary thing while they work to find Sara's killer, but it really hasn't been temporary, has it?   AND the most danger Diggle has been in was when he was doing that favor for Lyla.

In many ways I think that line between Diggle and his job on the team is going to remain very flexible.  He's going to continue balancing his family and his team, weighing risks as they come.  But at the same time, they have made more room for Roy.  Roy doesn't feel like a replacement for Diggle.  He's the sidekick. He barely talks half the time.  He's not a part of the decision making; he's an extra weapon when Oliver goes out in the field.  He's the team puppy. (Occasionally chewing on shoes and peeing in the corner)

Diggle's place on the team has never been always in the field or always in the cave or always hanging back up.  He goes where he is needed.  Roy does serve as back up right in the moment but Diggle remains the failsafe in addition to the touchstone and example for Oliver.  It's a role that isn't neatly defined but without him, Oliver becomes less than he can be

Ray might show up ready to wield his Atom suit and Laurel might lace up her buckles, but they are never going to on Team Arrow.  They are outside of it.  They might at some point work together, but I can't ever see either as real team members.  I could imagine Thea being brought in as another sidekick eventually.  Perhaps at that point Roy would grow out of his apprentice status and also seek to be his own hero or perhaps the sidekicks would team up to back up Arrow, but that subordinate position isn't something I can picure for Ray and Laurel just doesn't listen so they will never IMO be able to replace Team Arrow.

I do still stand by my theory that Oliver and the whole team is going to disband at season's end (come together and then disband) only to fit back together stronger (and permanently) at some point in season 4.  But that does mean surviving a lot of ups and downs now

Edited December 27, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Happy Harpy]

 

Fact is, I care what I'm being shown. Arrow has a lot of faults. It's got too much going on (as per usual), and Diggle and Felicity oftentimes are on the short end of the stick when it comes to cast bloat, but it has always shown both of them as extremely capable and heroic.

 

I think for people who don't want to look for the heroic moments that Felicity and Diggle have it is easy to overlook and it gives the "comic canon" crowd an out to say that they are not legit heroes.

There's definitely a dissonance and imo it's because Oliver is actually representative of the show when it comes to being torn between two identities: Original adaptation and carbon copy.  And two kind of audiences: the non comic-book readers/former readers/open-minded readers who fell in love with the former, and the die-hard purists who want nothing but the latter. Team Arrow is imo its biggest expression -because it's the core of the original show.

 

It happens that the EPs are, unless I'm mistaken, mostly comic book fans.

It often seems, imo, as if they don't value enough the original elements of the show even though they created them, and get fanboyishly excited about anything comics. I even think they're so excited about the comic, they think the whole audience will also be "just because", like them, and they forget to actually make the characters and storylines in question exciting or even simply coherent with the original universe of the show, leading to failure with the first kind of audience (and if the numbers I've seen are accurate re: GA readership vs Arrow viewership, it should make a lot of people).

For example, I've always thought they failed to develop Laurel from the start because they assumed that everyone knew who Dinah Laurel Lance was, and would of course love her and want her with Oliver no matter how sordid their history was. Same, they probably assumed that everyone loved the Atom so much, and since a Superman played him, they could play with fire and use it to stall a hugely popular couple without hurting his chances of becoming a "fan favorite".

 

On the opposite, Team Arrow is the ultimate original element of the show. Integrated, organic, it developped along with Oliver's evolution while contributing to it. Diggle and Felicity didn't exist beforehand, so they had to be defined and woven into the show and better, they were used to correct early criticism and found themselves, finally, completing Oliver -and it helped that the casting department struck gold with SA/DR/EBR's miraculous chemistry. Maybe Diggle and Felicity didn't have so much time devoted to them in particular, but one scene, one line of dialogue, was imo enough to resonate because it was always completely in tune with the show. What they did, what they said, was for a reason, not just "because".

 

And yet, again, the PR machine seems to be all about the elements inspired by comic books, while neglecting the original ones like Team Arrow or merely using them at bait. Even when D/F are heroic onscreen, like in the S2 finale, the promos were all about Laurel with a bow. Moreover, twice now, as it was stated above, Team Arrow was backburned to make place for comic book characters. I can't assume what other people meant, but for me the people who love Diggle and Felicity and are annoyed at the writers are afraid that the goal is to progressively get rid of the original elements of the show in order to prop and establish comic elements in their place -in opposition to purists  who are eager for this to happen. Moreover

I think that people "discounted" D/F more, indeed, because of  the term "new" than because they don't see them as heroes or need superheroes costume to value them.

It's, I think, another expression of that dissonance: The audience has seen Felicity and Diggle acting as heroes onscreen but deduced from the general hoopla that with those writers, you don't get to be considered a real hero if you don't have a superhero costume. 

 

If Team Arrow was thriving onscreen, I wouldn't care about the PR. But considering the situation, the PR only reinforce my feeling that it's getting the shaft.

 

 

What relationship? One or two scenes every few episode?

For me, yes. Those wonderful scenes they had and established trust, care and friendship in a believable way, in the little space they had left by the Lance family drama ;)

Edited December 27, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Genki]

@Happy Harpy your post makes me smile because you hit the points so well, but it makes me sad because, unfortunately I agree 100%.

 

I find it irksome that EPs have stated that they pay attention to Comic heavy fan sites, because I think the original elements "non"-destined elements of the show make it stronger.

 

I might even motivate me to get a twitter account to tweet about how much I miss OG Team Arrow since that seems to be an avenue to the EPs ears.

[BkWurm1]

It happens that the EPs are, unless I'm mistaken, mostly comic book fans.

 

They seem to be most fond though of what they contributed to the comics so that gives me hope.  (Like Carrie Cutter aka Cupid)  They have expressed a love for the core team but I think they think the best way to tell a story is to rip everything that is working into pieces and then work to make them fit again. 

[Genki]

Interesting blogger analysis on why it hard to integrate others into Team Arrow. 

 

By interesting...I mean I agree with it a lot :)

[apinknightmare]

I disagree that what is said outside of the show isn't important. I agree that we have seen heroic moments for each of the characters but the way they speak about Felicity and Diggle outside of the show does matter, imo.  If we are meant to see them as heroes why hasn't there been on screen acknowledge of their sacrifice? Why isn't it said on screen that these two are heroes? Why did Oliver give Slade some credit for helping him become a hero but the people who were really responsible for that transformation never given that moment? Why have I had to hear, "Laurel Lance always trying to save the world," now twice but never once about Diggle and Felicity? I have to imagine that their is a reason that even Roy got a, "good job out there tonight" and Felicity and Diggle haven't.  What are writers waiting for to give credit to these characters? After 3 years with nothing honoring what they do for Starling City there has to be a reason. Are they saving it for some super-duper hero moment? Are they waiting until they do put them in costume? I don't know but the way they speak about them, the lack of acknowledgement in story does speak to the viewers whether they intend it to or not and that's why we get idiotic articles like the one on Diggle where the author says, "he has a military background and a gun." Like that's something the viewers can dismiss because the writers don't point that out within the narrative, they don't acknowledge the agency that his history should afford him.

I think for people who don't want to look for the heroic moments that Felicity and Diggle have it is easy to overlook and it gives the "comic canon" crowd an out to say that they are not legit heroes. I do think what they say and don't say both in story and out matters.  YMMV

 

My mileage is that I don't care how Felicity and Diggle referred to outside of the story as long as they keep having their heroic moments in the show, that's why I wrote "I don't care" in front of all of my points. 

 

Honest question, because I don't remember - has anyone on this show outside of Oliver been referred to as an actual hero? Oliver told Slade he helped him become a hero specifically because Slade kept telling him he was a killer and Oliver knew that would bug him. It was a taunt more than an acknowledgement, so it's not like he was giving Slade credit and denying that to Diggle and Felicity. Would it be nice for Oliver to verbally acknowledge their roles in front of the audience? Absolutely. Does it have anything to do with Diggle and Felicity being heroes? No. Roy got a "good job out there tonight" because Oliver is mentoring him - he's not mentoring Diggle and Felicity. And I don't think that acknowledging Diggle's hero status would stop people from writing idiotic articles like the one that started this discussion - it speaks more to how that particular person views civilians in a costumed superhero drama more than it does how valuable the audience thinks Diggle is and/or whether or not they think he's a hero. The general outrage over it is enough proof of that, IMO. 

 

Look, I get why this matters and/or is upsetting to a lot of people, and I'm not trying to discount or discredit that. I think it's just reached a point where (for me) it's kind of...nit, nit, nit, nit nitpick about everything, and my natural instinct is to go against the tide sometimes (which is probably a big clue that I need to take a nice, long break from discussion boards), because despite my disappointment in this season, I'm still entertained by the show, and I guess my expectations are just...not that high. So, for me, as long as Diggle and Felicity continue to be their brave, heroic selves, I don't care about semantics in the grand scheme of things. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Moreover Spoiler It's, I think, another expression of that dissonance: The audience has seen Felicity and Diggle acting as heroes onscreen but deduced from the general hoopla that with those writers, you don't get to be considered a real hero if you don't have a superhero costume.

new? Please expand, where did that come from?

[quarks]

Even when D/F are heroic onscreen, like in the S2 finale, the promos were all about Laurel with a bow.

 

 

Responding in the Behind the Scenes thread, since my response isn't really about Team Arrow.

[Happy Harpy]

@Morrigan2575 It's hard to follow a discussion from appropriate thread to appropriate thread, so maybe I missed/misunderstood something, but I'm talking about the spoiler

saying that "new" heroes/superheroes were going to protect Starling City at the end of the season. People here guessed it would be Ray/Laurel -maybe Roy- and not Team Arrow.

. I thought that's what you were talking about when you mentioned that some people here criticized the writers while having the same opinion. For me, there's a dissonance between what the audience sees onscreen -Felicity and Diggle are heroes already- and what the PR and writers' interviews convey -it seems that for them, characters who don't have a superhero costume from the comics aren't considered as heroes. So  this dissonance

plus the mention of "new"

might have lead some people here -it's my case- to discount Felicity and Diggle as heroes in that particular instance since they didn't fit the definition given.

 

 

So, for me, as long as Diggle and Felicity continue to be their brave, heroic selves, I don't care about semantics in the grand scheme of things.

For me, there's indeed a problem of semantics and I had the feeling that there was a rather wide consensus, especially here, about the fact that Team Arrow is a big draw of the show, to say the least.

I'm glad that you still enjoy it! The less misery is shared, the better! But personally I feel there's, onscreen, a lack of Team Arrow. Sara's death should have imo led them to stick together and huddle closer than ever, and the great interactions between them in the crossover made me feel that they never interacted so little and were never so far apart otherwise -and maybe the fact that I didn't watch the other episodes allowed more distance, for better or for worse.

Hence my impression of consensus, because it seems that for all the disagreement, many of us enjoy and want the best for the Fab Three.

 

Edit:

 

I contrast that with how I felt when Laurel was there which just grated on me. Maybe it's because I don't like her, but I didn't feel like it was a natural fit.

I don't want to single out Laurel here as a character, because it goes beyond the idiosyncrasies of one character. She's just one example of something that I feel about Team Arrow: What works for the show in general, or what works as storytelling/character conception, works with it...and what doesn't, doesn't work in general.

I don't mean that everyone has to be related with O/D/F or crashing in the Arrowcave. I just feel that when a character is in his/her right place, I don't feel that their storyline "steals" airtime from Team Arrow, but completes it and hereby, contributes to the show in general. For me, it's a kind of cursor.

 

Three different examples:

-Sara, for me, worked wonderfully in her 2-A interaction because she fit naturally there, and when the writers tried to force a change of dynamic and change Sara's place -related to the personality and history they gave her- it stopped working as well (not for everyone of course and YMMV).

-Det.Lance was freed of the Javert trope in the last handful of S1 episodes, for the Gordon type. Yes, I got to like him more when he began to support O/D/F...but simply because, imo, it worked better for the character. After all, the first glimpse at a non-bitter Lance was related to Sara's search, i.e to the event at the roots of the show and that made Quentin who he was when I "met" him.

-I like Roy with Team Arrow and I want him to go on working with them, but I loved him with Sin and Thea and I think he worked better with them. It's been said, I think, that Roy didn't get much to do/was in the background a lot; and I'm starting to wonder whether in spite of the efforts to prop him as a Robin, the writers might find out that he can't shine as much in the Arrowcave as he did outside of it.

 

I understand how maybe, the writers don't want to center the show on three characters for fear to dry the potential for storylines; but I'm convinced that whenever the trio won't be enough, the characters who are supposed to enrich it will find their place there naturally, as everything about Team Arrow did so far.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Morrigan2575]

Morrigan2575 It's hard to follow a discussion from appropriate thread to appropriate thread, so maybe I missed/misunderstood something, but I'm talking about the spoiler Spoiler. I thought that's what you were talking about when you mentioned that some people here criticized the writers while having the same opinion.

The problem is David never said that...

David's exact quote,

by the end of the season there will be at least 3 or more legitimate heroes that can save Starling City besides Oliver Queen. They're really building up to that, that the city can live outside of Oliver Queen

At no point did he say new heroes or costumed heroes, or superheros . People put their own twist on his words or heard what they wanted to. 3 or more gets reduced to 3, legitimate heroes becomes costumed heroes..

The irony is that the some of the people complaining about that comicbook.com article had already come to the same conclusion just not the extreme ending that was suggested, killing/retiring Diggle.

Hell, look at some of the speculation, people who think Oliver will retire at the end of S3 and that he'll spend the summer dating Felicity. Not a single person ever gave a thought or comment to what Felicity will do or choose if Oliver stopped being the Arrow. Why?

BTW - I don't agree with that article at all.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Happy Harpy]

Oh, OK! Thanks!

I binge-read many threads and "new" is what I retained from the discussion. I see why: In the same vein, Diggle/Felicity are for me already "legitimate" heroes.

So I still think that -sorry, not trying to be contrary!- such conclusions/speculations originate from the difference between the idea that Team Arrow-loving audience has of heroes and of Diggle/Felicity, and the idea that the writers seem to profess of heroes -or from their idea of the idea that the writers etc.

 

Not a single person ever gave a thought or comment to what Felicity will do or choose if Oliver stopped being the Arrow.

Oh, interesting. I don't know about others/don't remember what was said or not -clearly, lol- but...

The only thing my exhausted, insomniac brain suggests right now is Felicity reacting by "You aren't done fighting", to which Diggle would nod vigorously while giving the side-eye to the wannabes wanting to take Oliver's place. And marital "hawking" would ensue and Oliver would cave in and Diggle would smile knowingly and I would smile watching the whole thing.

Or anything less Flash-y or Disney-like and fitting the Arrow universe but leading to Team Arrow kicking ass happily ever after.

[Morrigan2575]

conclusions/speculations originate from the difference between the idea that Team Arrow-loving audience has of heroes and of Diggle/Felicity, and the idea that the writers seem to profess of heroes -or from their idea of the idea that the writers etc.

Feel free to be contrary, I have no problem with that. I don't know that I agree or disagree on a disconnect due to the writers.

Oh, interesting. I don't know about others/don't remember what was said or not -clearly, lol- but...

The only thing my exhausted, insomniac brain suggests right now is Felicity reacting by "You aren't done fighting", to which Diggle would nod vigorously while giving the side-eye to the wannabes wanting to take Oliver's place. And marital "hawking" would ensue and Oliver would cave in and Diggle would smile knowingly and I would smile watching the whole thing.

My point was more about the fact that fans never once thought about Felicity in their speculation, it was only about Oliver. In this speculation, Felicity and Diggle actually aren't even factored in. Laurel, Ray, and Roy take over protecting the city; Oliver hangs up the hood and dates Felicity. No thought is actually ever given to what Diggle does when Oliver hangs up the hood (that I can recall) and Felicity only factors in as the LI.

What does that say? What is Feicity, going to do? Where's the speculation on that?

Edited December 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[DrSpaceman10]

I have thought about what Diggle and Felicity would do if Oliver hung up the hood. I think Felicity would still be Oracle/watchtower, guiding whichever costumed people were running around and Diggle might go work for ARGUS. I think Oliver would try to get QC/PT back - or if he'd already gotten it back, I think we would run it. Even though I think Felicity's technically more qualified to run QC. 

 

Diggle and Felicity make Oliver much more likable, so they're just as important as Oliver to me.

[calliope1975]

I think I think more about what Felicity would do in any situation before I think about Oliver. She'll be running Queen Inc. if and when Oliver gets his company back, or perhaps she'll found it herself with Walter. She engineers the merger with Wayne Tech. I think a lot about her meeting Bruce and their interactions. She probably coordinates the Justice League (and she or Cisco names it.) She's baby Sara's godmother - in name, not in any type of religious sense, but she's still awkward when Digg and Lyla want her to babysit. Lyla and Digg take over ARGUS and make it not as shady as it is currently. 

 

I think a lot about Felicity in general. It's an imagination problem. 

 

This Hiatus Hell seems worse than it was during the summer. 

[apinknightmare]

For me, there's indeed a problem of semantics and I had the feeling that there was a rather wide consensus, especially here, about the fact that Team Arrow is a big draw of the show, to say the least.

I'm glad that you still enjoy it! The less misery is shared, the better! But personally I feel there's, onscreen, a lack of Team Arrow. Sara's death should have imo led them to stick together and huddle closer than ever, and the great interactions between them in the crossover made me feel that they never interacted so little and were never so far apart otherwise -and maybe the fact that I didn't watch the other episodes allowed more distance, for better or for worse.

Hence my impression of consensus, because it seems that for all the disagreement, many of us enjoy and want the best for the Fab Three.

 

 

I agree with you that Team Arrow is a draw and I would absolutely like to see more of Felicity and Diggle, but that conversation was about heroism and whether or not Diggle and Felicity are considered heroes, and whether or not they need to be called heroes in the show. So, it was definitely an argument about semantics (hero vs. superhero), not about screen time. They should have more screen time, IMO, always more.

Edited December 28, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I think a lot of people thought David meant

"costumed heroes" when he said "legitimate heroes"

because that gels with several other interviews/tweets/etc from the EPs -- especially the quote from Berlanti, I think? about Diggle not having a mask, he said "it's not who he is", and what Stephen Amell said at NYCC:

The fact that there are so many superheroes populating Starling City and Central City is gonna be a very important theme and is going to be incredibly important to the ultimate resolution for Oliver at the end of season 3. Umm…I’ve said too much.

Putting all quotes together paints a picture that imo lends to the assumption that the show itself -- EPs and cast included -- seem to think hero = mask + comic book destiny.

However, I also think pretty much everyone here in this forum who made this assumption is frustrated by this path, if it ends up happening. I can only speak for myself, but while I'm inclined to think these quotes did mean comic book >>> everything else, I'm NOT AT ALL happy with it, nor do I want to watch a single second of Laurel/Roy/Crazy Eyes hero-ing while Diggle and Felicity aren't, and I completely agree with everyone that's pointing out Diggle and Felicity ARE legitimate heroes, lack of mask notwithstanding. What I got from those discussions about David's quote was that people were more RESIGNED with this crappy idea of heroes = masks than rooting for it to happen.

[apinknightmare]

My point was more about the fact that fans never once thought about Felicity in their speculation, it was only about Oliver. In this speculation, Felicity and Diggle actually aren't even factored in. Laurel, Ray, and Roy take over protecting the city; Oliver hangs up the hood and dates Felicity. No thought is actually ever given to what Diggle does when Oliver hangs up the hood (that I can recall) and Felicity only factors in as the LI.

What does that say? What is Feicity, going to do? Where's the speculation on that?

 

What exactly is there to speculate about? If Oliver quit and Ray, Laurel or Roy took over, then I would expect that Felicity would continue to do what she's always done, because I think Felicity's committed to the cause, not to Oliver being the leader of that cause. I'm less sure about Diggle - I think he'd still carry on, but IDK since he "left" the team after Sara was born. 

 

I think that says exactly what it should - that people generally believe that not much would change with the two of them if Oliver wasn't around, which speaks highly to both of their characters, IMO.

[TanyaKay]

The idea that people who put on masks are the only heroes is kind of insulting to almost all the beloved characters. Barring Oliver and a guest starring Barry, every other beloved character on Arrow is a mask less person. Be it John Diggle, Felicity Smoak or my fav HBIC Moira Queen.

[MostlyC]

The best place to talk about Heros/Superheros/Can you Still-Be-A-Hero-If-You're-Wearing-A-Mask-Or-Do-You-Need-A Cape- As-Well is

here:

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/6472-mind-your-surroundings-arrow-with-the-flash-and-other-superhero-universes/page-17

 

In this thread, we love and/or hate* Team Arrow, but we don't need to bicker about their heroine/hero status.

 

 

*Personally, I love but one's mileage may vary.

[Happy Harpy]

 

My point was more about the fact that fans never once thought about Felicity in their speculation, it was only about Oliver. In this speculation, Felicity and Diggle actually aren't even factored in.

On this particular issue (Oliver giving up the Hood) I wouldn't speculate because a similar situation already happened. At the end of S1, Oliver hanged up the Hood and what did Diggle and Felicity do? They carried on. They looked for him. They convinced him to come back. While offering understanding (more Diggle) they nudged him toward another way, fitting better his new state of mind (more Felicity).

And they did it again when Oliver wanted to give up at the end of S2.

 

So for me, it goes without saying and any other reaction would be OOC (and that's why I had a personal WTF moment re:Diggle "quitting" the team). That's what Team Arrow does. That's how Team Arrow works. That's what Team Arrow is (moreover, if Oliver gave up for good, there would be no show anymore). 

 

On a general level, YMMV and it's just a personal impression, but I feel that many people generally factor Felicity and Diggle in,

for example I think there are lots of speculations about their reaction to Oliver's death and expression they should be the ones to not believe in it and look for him, for example

and mostly express enthusiasm whenever they're mentioned in spoilers. Of course, it certainly depends on the issue at hand. But there isn't so much material, imo, because Felicity's main current arc is a love triangle (aaargh!), because we're (I'm) still waiting for Diggle's big HIVE arc and because the current main storyline is, unfortunately and still imho, about everything but Team Arrow. Making a not Happy and quite bitter Harpy.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[BkWurm1]

Hell, look at some of the speculation, people who think Oliver will retire at the end of S3 and that he'll spend the summer dating Felicity. Not a single person ever gave a thought or comment to what Felicity will do or choose if Oliver stopped being the Arrow. Why?

 

I know I'm the one that first brought up the idea of Oliver hanging up his quiver and while I haven't commented on it, I most certainly have thought about what Felicity and Diggle would be doing.  In some ways I took what they'd be doing as given.  I'd expect Diggle to get more involved with Lyla and Argus while at the same time also assisting and mentoring anyone out in the field (and probably providing back up as needed)  Felicity would be still working at Palmer Tech (or Queen Inc if something along those lines change) She's still going to be doing computer support but I'm not sure if she'd be doing it full time just for one person or if she'd be spread thin among everyone or she'd take a step back for a while and concentrate on helping the city from the business and philanthropic stand point.   But more than anything, I'd expect that both Diggle and Felicity would be feeling like there is something off about what they are doing.  I'd think as good and effective as they might be in whatever they are doing, I'd expect them to miss the dynamic of Team Arrow.

 

The one I never seem to remember is Roy.  I think I'm afraid to speculate about him.  He's still a side kick...if Oliver isn't around, where would he go?  I don't like the answers that pop in my mind. 

On this particular issue (Oliver giving up the Hood) I wouldn't speculate because a similar situation already happened. At the end of S1, Oliver hanged up the Hood and what did Diggle and Felicity do? They carried on. They looked for him. They convinced him to come back. While offering understanding (more Diggle) they nudged him toward another way, fitting better his new state of mind (more Felicity).

And they did it again when Oliver wanted to give up at the end of S2.

 

They carried on in a way  but more that they upgraded the lair and waited in expectation until Oliver was ready (and then they decided he was ready).  We know they kept ready but they didn't keep going out in the field without Oliver.  So If he backed away, I don't think we know for sure that they would just keep going.  I think they'd find a way to continue saving the city, but would it be the same way?  I don't know. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Curious]

You know what have made me scratch my head in confusion since Felicity and us found out about Ray Atom suit? If she finds out (does she already?) know he wants to use the suit to go out and fight crime (like Oliver) why would she date Ray when she finds out and feel devastated when Oliver "died"?  If the writers go the route of Felicity fearing or not liking the uncertainty of dating or in love with someone like Oliver who she fears will one day not come back alive then WHAT is the difference with Ray? Is it cause she is not in love with him right now? Yeah he is handsome, gives her a big boost in her career, doesn't seem to have all the extra baggage like Oliver etc.. BUT he is about to do the same thing as Oliver sooooo. Or are the writers not going the fearing death thing for Felicity but the Oliver  not feeling it safe to date her road block thing?

If they wanted me to be supportive of Felicity trying to move on to another guy , while Oliver get his mind right, it would have been better for it to be with a regular working guy. Like a detective, police officer, lawyer or military guy. Someone handsome, hot, smart, sense of humor and she has chemistry with. Someone who can tie into their vigilante work and still make Oliver rethink his personal life stance and be jealous. I just don't get it.

[chaos is welcome]

I am so so so torn on what they will do with Ray/Felicity.

Part of me really thinks they are going to go for the sad-we-both-love-people-who-are-dead-bang.

And part of me thinks they will simply just understand each other and it will stay (relatively) platonic and that will be that.

But yeah, you are right. That would make zero sense. Unless maybe she sees the difference is simply ray's ability to live in the moment and take the chances given?  That regret is the biggest thing she has?  I dunno. 

[calliope1975]

You know what have made me scratch my head in confusion since Felicity and us found out about Ray Atom suit? If she finds out (does she already?) know he wants to use the suit to go out and fight crime (like Oliver) why would she date Ray when she finds out and feel devastated when Oliver "died"?  If the writers go the route of Felicity fearing or not liking the uncertainty of dating or in love with someone like Oliver who she fears will one day not come back alive then WHAT is the difference with Ray? 

 

I don't think Felicity ever had a problem with the danger of a vigilante's life. She's not in the field all the time, but she's put herself at risk before physically. Her problem with Oliver was that he'd given up on any kind of happiness and had resigned himself to dying. He didn't want to choose to be happy with Felicity with whatever time he may have, and she (rightly so, imo) decided she wasn't going to wait around for him to wake up and realize that a week, a month, or a year with someone you love is better than a lifetime of being alone and miserable. 

 

We don't have Ray's perspective yet on what being a vigilante or hero means to him, but his personality is way more upbeat and seize the day rather than Oliver's I must brood and nurse my manpain. 

 

I appreciate giving Felicity options, but this still feels to me like the writers aren't confident enough in writing the pairing and are afraid of the ridiculous Moonlighting curse and wanting to find reasons to stall Olicity. And I stg if they continue to stall them with the kid or whatever, and I've said this before, I may have to burn down the WB.

[Curious]

Yeah if they want to portray Ray as being more willing to live life and seize the day that is fine but I have a  feeling he will tend to be a teensy bit more OCD with things that he encounter while doing his save the world thing. His personality that he portrays now is once he latch onto an idea/person he is focused on, he would be tens times worse than Oliver in his own obsessions. Good luck with that Felicity.HA

On a side note: On Felicity prior love interests or BF's she seems to like the somewhat grey/dark but with smarts (street and or book smart) guys.

[chaos is welcome]

Post in the felicity thread about EBR fighting to retain her ponytail/glasses made me remember how freaking much I adore that out of all the kisses she's had this season (FOUR GUYS on TWO SHOWS in 2 time periods - one past, three in present). . . Oliver is the ONLY one who has kissed her with her glasses on. 

 

With regard to Ray, the relationship I envision for them is Felicity asking him HOW the heck she gets over the hurt, more than anything else.  He told her it gets better, back when he was man-splaining her emotions in the 3.01.  Maybe she'll look at him and be like "WHEN does it get better? Because this hurts too much."  I really expect that to be the core of their issues.

 

And awhile back someone mention Laurel/Ray. I hope we aren't stuck with her, but if we are, I think captain crazy eyes and emotionless will be fantastic together. Maybe Ray can rig her up some tech for her "she'll have to find another way."  BAHAHAHAHA.

[Chiny11]

Post in the felicity thread about EBR fighting to retain her ponytail/glasses made me remember how freaking much I adore that out of all the kisses she's had this season (FOUR GUYS on TWO SHOWS in 2 time periods - one past, three in present). . . Oliver is the ONLY one who has kissed her with her glasses on.

She had her glasses on when Barry kissed her on the train...in the Flash episode. But her hair was not in a ponytail.

[dtissagirl]

I've gotten to that stage where I just find the messy romance arc hilarious, and one thing that's particularly tickling me is how Kresiberg sold Crazy Eyes as a real choice for Felicity before the season started, except if she gets closer to him while Oliver is "dead" from their POVs, how is he a choice? The other option is d-e-a-d.

I almost wanna make snarky Tumblr fanart of Felicity/Crazy Eyes to the words of Catatonia's "Goldfish and Paracetamol":

A dead loss, no songs, no fun, just glum

Lying next to someone

So don't mention the war, don't question

Where we stand or where we fall

North, south, east where's best?

If I head left, it turns out directionless

And needle point aside, I always find

Embroidery leaves me blind

'Cause I'm too weary to rest, since I noticed

Coming second best is close to ideal

[Danny Franks]

I've gotten to that stage where I just find the messy romance arc hilarious, and one thing that's particularly tickling me is how Kresiberg sold Crazy Eyes as a real choice for Felicity before the season started, except if she gets closer to him while Oliver is "dead" from their POVs, how is he a choice? The other option is d-e-a-d.

 

 

 

Heh. Very good point. That would run counter to this theory that they have to show Felicity is not waiting around for Oliver, and he is not her only option. Because, she was waiting around until he died, and then she starts dating the stalker? Um. Not really showing her as a fierce, independent woman, there.

 

Of course, if they had ever really wanted to do justice to Felicity having options, they could easily have created a likeable love interest and actually shown them getting to know one another or something. By all accounts, she went from being unsettled by 50 Shades to swooning over his incredible altruism, with no inbetween. But of course, they never wanted to do justice to Felicity at all. They just wanted to postpone the 'ship for as long as possible. And having her date this guy after Oliver dies/comes back/gets brainwashed by Merlyn, still serves that primary purpose. It would just show, even more clearly, the way these writers think.

[looptab]

From the bitterness thread:

I decided I wanted to make a list of all the things I think this show has gotten wrong, and/or that I'm bitter/frustrated/angry/irritated about.[...]

13) how Sara and Oliver's relationship was handled. I may be the only person on this board that wasn't upset by "the lunge". I actually liked them together. Not in an OTP way necessarily, although it might have been if I'd ever felt like the writers were treating their relationship as something more than a plot point, or roadblock. I'm just saying, I wish they'd treated it seriously or not done it at all.

 

Maybe this has already been discussed at lenght, but could you expand on this?  I ask out of curiosity, since when I binged the show I didn't give much thought to this relationship.

To me it felt like it just came out of the blue, then was quickly given a "deepness" that didn't really feel authentic (like in Time of Death and Suicide Squad) and then just as quickly it was over. Mind you, I didn't hate it, I felt pretty much indifferent toward it (although the lunge did irk me, especially in that episode, and the Lance dinner and Oliver's behaviour in Suicide Squad annoyed me quite a bit). So I'd like to hear other opinions on the matter, and what issues people had with it, and how it was perceived. Why do you feel like it wasn't treated seriously?

 

P.S. You realize how much they failed with Laurel when, even in a situation as awful as a sister who backstabs her again - although being aware of Laurel's issues with her (so maybe you'd think she'd try and repair the relationship, instead of going ahead and doing the exact same thing that drove the two of them apart in the first place and led to Sara's "death"), then rubs it in her face, Sara ends up with more sympathy points. SMH

Edited January 11, 2015 by looptab

[Chasity]

From the bitterness thread:

Maybe this has already been discussed at lenght, but could you expand on this?  I ask out of curiosity, since when I binged the show I didn't give much thought to this relationship.

To me it felt like it just came out of the blue, then was quickly given a "deepness" that didn't really feel authentic (like in Time of Death and Suicide Squad) and then just as quickly it was over. Mind you, I didn't hate it, I felt pretty much indifferent toward it (although the lunge did irk me, especially in that episode, and the Lance dinner and Oliver's behaviour in Suicide Squad annoyed me quite a bit). So I'd like to hear other opinions on the matter, and what issues people had with it, and how it was perceived. Why do you feel like it wasn't treated seriously?

 

P.S. You realize how much they failed with Laurel when, even in a situation as awful as a sister who backstabs her again - although being aware of Laurel's issues with her (so maybe you'd think she'd try and repair the relationship, instead of going ahead and doing the exact same thing that drove the two of them apart in the first place and led to Sara's "death"), then rubs it in her face, Sara ends up with more sympathy points. SMH

Sara wasn't the more sympathetic one to me. I don't even like Laurel, but I was pissed off on her behalf with the whole Sara/Oliver thing, both times.  Just because your sister is mean to you, it doesn't make it okay for you to screw her boyfriend. It also irked me that not once did Sara actually apologize to Laurel for what she did, instead they had Laurel say sorry to her. Also, the fact that they actually had Laurel give Sara relationship advice about Oliver was just too much for me. 

[Password]

Sara wasn't the more sympathetic one to me. I don't even like Laurel, but I was pissed off on her behalf with the whole Sara/Oliver thing, both times.  Just because your sister is mean to you, it doesn't make it okay for you to screw her boyfriend. It also irked me that not once did Sara actually apologize to Laurel for what she did, instead they had Laurel say sorry to her. Also, the fact that they actually had Laurel give Sara relationship advice about Oliver was just too much for me.

Yep. After she and Oliver pulled that dinner crap I was turned off from both of them. And yes, she didn't apologise and I hated it. However, apologising after hooking up with Oliver again would've made no difference. I really don't think either of them were particularly sorry about the cheating. The writers on this show aren't afraid to throw their characters under the bus at all.

[Chasity]

I think Oliver was sorry for the things he did to Laurel, but Sara didn't seem remorseful over it at all, even when they talked about it on the island.

[looptab]

Sara wasn't the more sympathetic one to me. I don't even like Laurel, but I was pissed off on her behalf with the whole Sara/Oliver thing, both times.  Just because your sister is mean to you, it doesn't make it okay for you to screw her boyfriend. It also irked me that not once did Sara actually apologize to Laurel for what she did, instead they had Laurel say sorry to her. Also, the fact that they actually had Laurel give Sara relationship advice about Oliver was just too much for me.

 

Yes, I agree 100% with what you said. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. It's true that Sara and Oliver were both the wrong party, that after all that had passed neither one of them should have even thought about rekindling whatever it was they had - I could have understood as if it was a neverending, undying love kind of bond they had, but since that wasn't the case, it was messed up from the start. That was maybe the one time I was completely on Laurel's side, I could put myself in her shoes and think I'd react the same way she did. (Let's not talk about the relationship advice thing, please. I was like WTF is this??)

 

What I meant was, even in that situation, Laurel  didn't have a positive outcome. I think that was their intention, yet the execution was so misguided, you truly have to believe these writers have no idea what they're doing at times. The one time she was righteous in her indignation, you have her being the one apologizing. Did they want to show us how compassionate and ultimately forgiving she was? I honestly have no idea what they hoped to accomplish.

At the end of it all, even if that was supposed to be Laurel hitting rock bottom and then picking herself up again, at a point when we should have all been on her side and rooting for her to succeed, to rise from the ashes, she still was a half-baked and mostly hated character and Sara, even if they supposedly gave us reason to hate her, was the one brave, and sympathetic. So what was the point?

 

I hope I've been clearer this time :)

Edited January 11, 2015 by looptab

[ostentatious]

I was completely on her side in that, as an isolated incident. It is so odd how at any given moment in the first two seasons, the way I am processing her is the opposite of the way it seems the writers expect me to. She was totally right for once, but THAT is when they had Oliver finally blow up? Like right now when I am feeling indignant for her?

But I think Oliver's blowup in the hallway was more about everything that had come before. To him, he was on the conscious level outraged on Sara's behalf, feeling that Laurel was being hostile and unwelcoming after Sara had been through so much. But subconsciously he was outraged on his own behalf, because he was letting out the feelings her coldness and rejection had engendered in him. It was just easier for him to realize it when it was aimed at someone else.

That is how I have reconciled his behavior there and the fact that they played it like it was this huge turning point for Laurel. Laurel did not deserve that for her behavior that particular night, but taken as part of the continuum, perhaps recognizing that even though Oliver was stoic she had really hurt him with the way she had treated him let her ask herself if she really wanted to end up in this same dynamic with Sara. Was it really worth it? Did she want their relationship to degrade or improve? She isn't even with Oliver anymore. He gave her a year and a half of potshots and just took it. Does she need to extract a year and a half from Sara too, or can Oliver just cover that debt?

I don't know that she'd ever seen Oliver angry with her before either, had she? While they were dating he sucked it up in a different (passive aggressive, acting out behind her back) way, but these days he just stayed frozen. So just the shock of that...

None of these things changes the fact that yeah, Sara should have apologized and sure shouldn't have brought Oliver over there to eyebang across Laurel's table. Laurel was being pretty cool and giving them the benefit of the doubt by agreeing they could both stay under their "cover" story for showing up together. But then they made it obvious.

There was a period of time last spring when I was convinced Sara was going to turn. I still think that the show wanted that option on the table. Thing is, Sara is not clueless about girl world politics, including social negotiation with her sister. You did not grow up with Laurel Lance and have times when she told you you were a bitch and called the cops on you so she could date a guy you like and then you end up screwing that guy out of resentment and to get your secret payback without a clear understanding of what it means to then bring that guy to your sister's house and make it obvious you're sleeping with him again. And since when is Sara some wilting daisy who can't make it through dinner with the family alone?

So maybe the show was just once again clueless about how women negotiate their relationships with each other, but if I am thinking totally inside the world of the show, Sara knew exactly what she was stirring up doing that, and knew if she sounded in need of rescue he would be swayed even though it's the worst idea ever. And tbqh if Felicity hadn't made him mad, he wouldn't have done it. I think they threw that little moment in there because they knew there had to be a reason why Oliver would stop thinking and react emotionally and just go. But Felicity is like GTFO so he is all FINE. Normally Felicity would've been backing him up in not going. But it just came at the wrong moment for either of them to behave reasonably.

Edited January 11, 2015 by ostentatious

[Chasity]

looptab, I get what you mean now.

 

ostentatious, I don't think Felicity made Oliver mad. She just took away the only excuse he had to not go by saying that he wasn't really needed there.

[looptab]

Exactly. Another instance when a character is made stupid to reach a certain plot point. I mean, Oliver never objected that  maybe it wasn't appropriate for him to go at Laurel's (even if the day before they had both agreed it was better to keep it secret for the time being); he just said he should stay in the Foundry and help with the mess the Clock King had caused, not that he was worried they could hurt Laurel's feelings. The same Oliver that not even ten minutes later was holding against Laurel how he was worried about her well-being while she was trying to give his mother the death penalty. Again, WTF? 

[Password]

That's interesting I couldn't stand Oliver's righteous indignation. As much as Laurel was horrible to Oliver the year before, he did cheat on her with her sister and indirectly then get her killed. If anything I'm annoyed that the writers didn't allow Laurel to just hate Oliver because she had ample reason to. If they allowed her to be angry and slowly work through her grief I would've been OK with that. But she was so wishy washy with her feelings that she irritated me with her sinking boat analogy apology. Then she blew up at Sara because she never got any time to work through her problems. And Sara decided since Laurel was mean again she'd just go sleep with Ollie (he was back to this douche) again.

Sara was too busy telling Oliver that Laurel isn't who she seems to feel sorry for cheating. And no, everything Oliver did compounded to nothing because he once again got into bed with Sara. All of his apologies were for nothing because his actions took a crap on them.

[dtissagirl]

looptab, I get what you mean now.

 

ostentatious, I don't think Felicity made Oliver mad. She just took away the only excuse he had to not go by saying that he wasn't really needed there.

I don't think he was mad at Felicity either, nor it was her intention to make him pissed -- Felicity was feeling knocked out, and she wanted to have a good sulk while fixing the servers, but she DEFINITELY didn't want Oliver [and Sara too, I guess] witnessing her sulking. Plus, they legit couldn't help her, so they'd just be in her way.

But I still think Oliver took it personally that in that particular moment when he could see Felicity was distressed, Felicity was basically telling him "get away from me", and that ended up influencing his terrible decision making in going to the dinner from hell.

Sara's bad choice in asking Oliver to go with her still trips me a bit -- I have to look at it from outside the narrative: Sara asked Oliver to go because Laurel needed to see them googly-eyeing so the hallway scene could exist -- but @ostentatious' in-story analysis is the best one I've read yet.

Edited January 11, 2015 by dancingnancy