Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[catrox14]

It's probably Felicity because she cared enough to keep her with the family when she rebuilt the Lair.

[wingster55]

But she did so because she got to ogle Oliver. The Salmon Ladder does not appreciate being used.

[Password]

Being used by Felicity Smoak is nothing to sniff at.

[wingster55]

Being used is being used. Felicity isn't on some sort of pedestal that she gets away with hurting the Salmon Ladder's feelings.

[catrox14]

Being used is being used. Felicity isn't on some sort of pedestal that she gets away with hurting the Salmon Ladder's feelings.

Look, Felicity understands just what Sally has meant to Oliver even when he abandoned her for a tree. He actually seemed surprised to see Sally again. What does that say about Oliver?

Felicity made it a win-win for everyone. And Sally loves her for that.  I mean sure it's nice to think she would have ended up in a parkour studio... but if Felicity hadn't saved her ...well...I just don't want to think...

Edited September 25, 2014 by catrox14

[wingster55]

It can't be true love if Felicity doesn't love her back.

[catrox14]

She saved her! My gosh, how is that not love. If all Felicity wanted was to ogle Ollie, she could have found a newer, shinier Salmon Ladder when she brought in new computers and a new case to store the Arrow suit.  It's quite obvious that Felicity appreciates and loves Sally on her own merits. She saved Sally and even DIGGLE didn't do that.

Edited September 25, 2014 by catrox14

[calliope1975]

Yes, Felicity could have easily replaced Sally with Tractor Tire who afforded both shirtlessness and proximity. But, no, she didn't even notice TT. I am confident that Felicity's loyalties lie with Sally. She even gave her a lighting upgrade whereas Oliver always left her in the dark. Frankly, it's Oliver's love that should be questioned. Abandoned her for a tree and tried to replace her with a tire. Perhaps, this OT3 should be Felicity/Sally/Sara.

[NumberCruncher]

Is she looking for

a normal relationship,

though? After all, she wants to be with Oliver, and she knows there would never be anything

normal

about that relationship.

After

getting her heart broken by Oliver's "I can't be with you because of the life I lead" he will drop on her in 3x01

, I can see her wanting something normal and quiet.

[wingster55]

Felicity didn't save Sally...she merely kept it around. For Oliver.

Oliver may have left it but..in the immortal words of Norm Peterson: "You can never be unfaithful to your one true love, you always come back to her"

Oliver came back.

[catrox14]

Felicity didn't save Sally...she merely kept it around. For Oliver.

Oliver may have left it but..in the immortal words of Norm Peterson: "You can never be unfaithful to your one true love, you always come back to her"

Oliver came back.

 

Oliver didn't come back.  Diggle and Felicity went and got him. He would have left her there forever if not for them.

[KenyaJ]

After

getting her heart broken by Oliver's "I can't be with you because of the life I lead" he will drop on her in 3x01

, I can see her wanting something normal and quiet.

 

You're right. That actually makes a lot of sense. But even if she's

shocked to learn Ray's secret, he doesn't appear to be wallowing in his manpain and has no qualms about pursuing/dating her, so I don't think she'll mind too much when she finds out he's not normal and quiet.

[NumberCruncher]

You're right. That actually makes a lot of sense. But even if she's

shocked to learn Ray's secret, he doesn't appear to be wallowing in his manpain and has no qualms about pursuing/dating her, so I don't think she'll mind too much when she finds out he's not normal and quiet.

 

Agreed, which is why it's going to absolutely kill Oliver watching

Ray have a successful relationship with the woman he loves and that will probably be the catalyst in helping Oliver reconcile the two sides of himself

.  He's not going to sit back for long, I think.

[wingster55]

Oliver didn't come back.  Diggle and Felicity went and got him. He would have left her there forever if not for them.

 

The means are insignificant.

 

On the Spoilers thread we mentioned Oliver being an awful brother to Thea...I know he cares and has been there before but when he really should be there he hasn't.

[catrox14]

If not for Felicity saving Sally and getting Oliver off the island he wouldn't have had her to come back to at all. So either way you slice it, Felicity is the only one that factored Sally in at all.

[Password]

What kind of irritates me is that we can basically map out where the season will go regarding their little...triangle. Even though we're speculating, really, where can they go that would be interesting with the storyline?

I'm all for Felicity being happy and Oliver dealing with his issues. But I won't even lie, I'm not particularly interested in Ray's character because he's a bit of a pawn.

[catrox14]

At this point I think the real question is what will Sally think about Laurel in Lair O'Arrow.

[Sakura12]

Felicity may have saved Sally, but I think Sally lusts for Sara. I mean she let her go at her for hours. 

[looptab]

I believe Dig and Sally have been having a secret affair for years.. when it'll finally come out, it won't be pretty for anyone.

[statsgirl]

Oliver would have abandoned Sally like he abandoned everyone else important to him -- Moira in jail, Thea basically abandoned by everyone, Diggle and Felicity bought off.  Felicity knew how important Sally and Oliver were to each other, and like a true friend, she reunited them without being jealous of their relationship. 

 

Will Diggle have to abandon Sally now that there is a baby on the way?

At this point I think the real question is what will Sally think about Laurel in Lair O'Arrow.

Maybe Sally is the one to let Laurel know what we think of her.

 

 

After

the disastrous date,

I can see her wanting something normal and quiet.

I still have a hard time seeing Felicity ready to move on from Oliver.  I'm hoping that the 'in' Ray has with her is through her IT and now administrative skills (thanks, Oliver!). It still bothers me that Oliver completely ignored her professional wishes when he made her his EA.  I'd like to see him at least acknowledge the sacrifice she made, and preferably apologize for taking advantage of her when he pulled her out of her area and made her the butt of gossip.

[KenyaJ]

I still have a hard time seeing Felicity ready to move on from Oliver.  I'm hoping that the 'in' Ray has with her is through her IT and now administrative skills (thanks, Oliver!). It still bothers me that Oliver completely ignored her professional wishes when he made her his EA.  I'd like to see him at least acknowledge the sacrifice she made, and preferably apologize for taking advantage of her when he pulled her out of her area and made her the butt of gossip.

 

I could see her moving on, in the sense of not dwelling with the fact that she can't be with Oliver and realizing that life goes on. But I can't see her deciding she needs to be with someone else as a reaction to not being able to be with Oliver. One thing we've seen from her in the last is that she's not desperate to be in a relationship and doesn't feel like she has to have a man.  (I can say that of all the women on the show, which is something I really appreciate. Thank you, show.)  

 

If things ultimately get romantic between her and Ray, I imagine it will be because she's spent a lot of time around him over the course of multiple episodes and decided she likes him, so she agrees when he asks her on a date. I'm fine with that kind of progression of their relationship. I just hope it won't be "Oliver pushes Felicity away, and BOOM! Now she's with Ray."  Nothing about that would feel true to character.

[looptab]

Will Diggle have to abandon Sally now that there is a baby on the way?

 

I still have a hard time seeing Felicity ready to move on from Oliver.  I'm hoping that the 'in' Ray has with her is through her IT and now administrative skills (thanks, Oliver!). It still bothers me that Oliver completely ignored her professional wishes when he made her his EA.  I'd like to see him at least acknowledge the sacrifice she made, and preferably apologize for taking advantage of her when he pulled her out of her area and made her the butt of gossip.

It will be the main triangle of the season, Sally/Dig/Lyla. Dig is very conflicted. :)

 

And I agree 100% about Oliver, Felicity. and the job issue. I'll be very disappointed if that conversation doesn't happen. On the other hand I have to say I look forward to seeing the dynamic between Ray and Felicity. It could be interesting.

[foreverevolving]

why are we all assuming it's Oliver that

breaks things up? a tweet Stephen did yesterday to a question about this very topic is causing me to once again consider that it really is Felicity that puts an end to their growing relationship, when Oliver goes out to avenge her getting hurt.

[apinknightmare]

why are we all assuming it's Oliver that

breaks things up? a tweet Stephen did yesterday to a question about this very topic is causing me to once again consider that it really is Felicity that puts an end to their growing relationship, when Oliver goes out to avenge her getting hurt.

Mostly because all the spoilers

said that Oliver would decide he couldn't be Oliver Queen while he was the Arrow, and that plays into his struggle with humanity for the season. They also said that the audience would be sympathetic with both Oliver and Felicity's positions at the end, so maybe they both decide not to pursue it.

Edited September 25, 2014 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

Looptab,  Dig and Sally's secret affair might well end up being pretty for ME.  But I would have to see video evidence - lots of video evidence - of this alleged affair between Diggle and Sally before I could say for certain.

 

Shirtless video, of course. 

[statsgirl]

It will be the main triangle of the season, Sally/Dig/Lyla. Dig is very conflicted. :)

Maybe Lyla will be spending too much time with the baby and Dig seeks consolation elsewhere?

 

why are we all assuming it's Oliver that

breaks things up? a tweet Stephen did yesterday to a question about this very topic is causing me to once again consider that it really is Felicity that puts an end to their growing relationship, when Oliver goes out to avenge her getting hurt.

Do you mean the tweet that asked him "Is Oliver going to break Felicity's heart next season?" and he replied "What if she breaks mine?"  I think that was just a generic "tune in and find out what happens" reply rather than spoiling or foreshadowing.

 

Felicity is one of the most forgiving/accepting people on the show.  She welcomed Sara with open arms (metaphorically), she was fine with Barry's lies, she was willing to give Moira a chance to come clean, and she's never condemned Oliver for anything after their first contretemps, even if she hasn't agreed with it.  Not to mention she's spent two seasons first crushing on Oliver and then having deeper feelings for him.  AK said about them "there is love there".  At this point, I have a hard time imagining what Oliver could do to cause her to 

shut down on a relationship with him. I think it's more likely that Oliver says "I just can't have a relationship with anyone" and Felicity replies, "that's okay, I understand."

Edited September 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[blixie]

 

what Oliver could do

 

The same thing Chris Reeves did in Superman II: give up being a hero for love. I don't think he actually will do it, but I could see him discussing it with Dig, after his freak out about Felcity/confrontation with his Dark Half. An injured Felicity overhears and shuts the idea of a relationship down, and since Oliver is already struggling with how do be both, he accepts the (not so) easy out.

[looptab]

Looptab,  Dig and Sally's secret affair might well end up being pretty for ME.  But I would have to see video evidence - lots of video evidence - of this alleged affair between Diggle and Sally before I could say for certain.

 

Shirtless video, of course. 

Of course, we need to see proof. It will be a fundamental plot point, how could they not show us? :D

 

Statsgirl, I think that's possible. It's not easy,  he sees her everyday.

 

As for the post-date, I can see Felicity pulling back because she realizes they both have stuff to deal with, i.e. his hero journey and her life beside him.

Edited September 25, 2014 by looptab

[foreverevolving]

Maybe Lyla will be spending too much time with the baby and Dig seeks consolation elsewhere?

 

Do you mean the tweet that asked him "Is Oliver going to break Felicity's heart next season?" and he replied "What if she breaks mine?"  I think that was just a generic "tune in and find out what happens" reply rather than spoiling or foreshadowing.

 

Felicity is one of the most forgiving/accepting people on the show.  She welcomed Sara with open arms (metaphorically), she was fine with Barry's lies, she was willing to give Moira a chance to come clean, and she's never condemned Oliver for anything after their first contretemps, even if she hasn't agreed with it.  Not to mention she's spent two seasons first crushing on Oliver and then having deeper feelings for him.  AK said about them "there is love there".  At this point, I have a hard time imagining what Oliver could do to cause her to 

shut down on a relationship with him. I think it's more likely that Oliver says "I just can't have a relationship with anyone" and Felicity replies, "that's okay, I understand."

The thing that makes me suspects 

It will be Felicity

besides the tweet you wrote is 

that Oliver has killed to keep Felicity safe before. while she understood she was also the one who told him "not for me Oliver" so.. i have to wonder if she won't look at his reaction and realize that whatever his feelings for her they are clouding his judgment; he is willing to kill to keep her safe, for her. and that is something i don't think Felicity will want. So i can see her reacting to his meltdown (or whatever it will be) by preferring for them to keep their distance because she doesn't want him kill again.

[statsgirl]

In both 

 

An injured Felicity overhears and shuts the idea of a relationship down, and since Oliver is already struggling with how do be both, he accepts the (not so) easy out.

and

 

i have to wonder if she won't look at his reaction and realize that whatever his feelings for her they are clouding his judgment; he is willing to kill to keep her safe, for her. and that is something i don't think Felicity will want. So i can see her reacting to his meltdown (or whatever it will be) by preferring for them to keep their distance because she doesn't want him kill again.

Felicity is taking away Oliver's agency by making the decision for him.

 

I don't want that because

 

• one of the reasons I like them together is because they make each other better, and this makes Felicity as a person worse for me;
• Oliver is always deciding for other people what it best for them -- not telling Thea the truth about himself or Roy or Slade or Malcolm, pushing Sara away, deciding he has to die to stop Slade,
  telling Diggle to step back off the team because he's about to become a father

   -- and they're almost always lead to bad consequences;

• superheros can't have other people decide for them what to do, they have to make their own superhero decisions, good or bad.  If bad, they get to learn from them.

Edited September 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[calliope1975]

I don't understand the logic of not being with Felicity because he overreacts to the bad guys when she's involved. If that's the argument they use to keep them apart, it doesn't make sense unless Oliver sends her away and she is no longer on the team. (I can't see that happening for more than an episode or two.) Oliver wasn't in a romantic relationship when he killed Count Vertigo or when all grrr after Helena roughed up Felicity. Just because he decides he can't date or have sex with Felicity won't automatically kill those feelings. If Felicity should get DiD'd this year, I'm supposed to believe that Oliver wouldn't kill someone because they're staying friends? 

 

It's why the "life I lead" speech didn't make sense to me since Felicity was already living that life alongside him. I get that Oliver's still a head case and needs to work on himself, but I just hope the reason for their separation has some sense and isn't just because they don't want to put them together yet. 

 

And then I remember what show I'm watching and sigh because logical writing isn't their strong suit.

[Guest]

Based on spoilers and character history, I assumed that

Oliver will be the one to stop things. I think he's just going to revert back to his previous way of thinking because Felicity being seriously hurt is exactly the kind of thing he was worried about. But I also think that Felicity will agree with him because a) she understands his feelings and b) I wouldn't be surprised if some of her insecurities come into play. Like if he can walk away from her does he truly want her? Also her reaction to Oliver killing the Count hints that she would never want him to kill for her so maybe that's why she steps away too. I'm guessing but the way one of the EP's said that we would be sympathetic to BOTH of them makes me think it's a mutually agreed kind of thing.

I don't understand the logic of not being with Felicity because he overreacts to the bad guys when she's involved. If that's the argument they use to keep them apart, it doesn't make sense unless Oliver sends her away and she is no longer on the team. (I can't see that happening for more than an episode or two.) Oliver wasn't in a romantic relationship when he killed Count Vertigo or when all grrr after Helena roughed up Felicity. Just because he decides he can't date or have sex with Felicity won't automatically kill those feelings. If Felicity should get DiD'd this year, I'm supposed to believe that Oliver wouldn't kill someone because they're staying friends? 

 

It's why the "life I lead" speech didn't make sense to me since Felicity was already living that life alongside him. I get that Oliver's still a head case and needs to work on himself, but I just hope the reason for their separation has some sense and isn't just because they don't want to put them together yet. 

 

And then I remember what show I'm watching and sigh because logical writing isn't their strong suit.

 

AGREED SO MUCH. It makes no sense. If he sent her away from the team then I could understand his logic but she could still get hurt being a member of Team Arrow and he'll still have feelings for her so… It's just a lame excuse for the writers to keep them apart for a while longer I guess. 

[NumberCruncher]

You've hit the nail on the head, @calliope1975.  The fact is Felicity is in as much danger as Oliver because they already work side-by-side.  Adding a romantic relationship to that really doesn't make that much of a difference--especially since he already killed someone for her as a partner/friend.  I do think the EPs are just using this worn-out superhero trope as a way to keep them apart because they don't know where to take them as a couple (yet).  Frankly, given how they've written other romantic relationships on the show, I don't have a lot of faith that they would get the Oliver/Felicity pairing right.  I hope I'm wrong about that.

[foreverevolving]

I don't understand the logic of not being with Felicity because he overreacts to the bad guys when she's involved. If that's the argument they use to keep them apart, it doesn't make sense unless Oliver sends her away and she is no longer on the team. (I can't see that happening for more than an episode or two.) Oliver wasn't in a romantic relationship when he killed Count Vertigo or when all grrr after Helena roughed up Felicity. Just because he decides he can't date or have sex with Felicity won't automatically kill those feelings. If Felicity should get DiD'd this year, I'm supposed to believe that Oliver wouldn't kill someone because they're staying friends? 

 

It's why the "life I lead" speech didn't make sense to me since Felicity was already living that life alongside him. I get that Oliver's still a head case and needs to work on himself, but I just hope the reason for their separation has some sense and isn't just because they don't want to put them together yet. 

 

And then I remember what show I'm watching and sigh because logical writing isn't their strong suit.

The way i see it, if it will come from Felicity side it will give Oliver the eventual (eventual) push to learn how to separate between his two personas. and i have said this before, my guess is that season 4 will be all about Oliver learning to balance these two sides of him without influencing the other.

[catrox14]

Because his feelings for her changed. It's probably kind of selfish but realistic that he will be afraid of losing her as his lover and partner. Its kinda chauvinistic and that might be the lesson he has to learn.

[KenyaJ]

I do think the EPs are just using this worn-out superhero trope as a way to keep them apart because they don't know where to take them as a couple (yet). 

 

I think you're probably right. And that's frustrating for me because they don't have to take them anywhere, IMO. It's a superhero/action show. I don't really need or want the show to be about their relationship. I just want it to be this constant thing in the background. They work at QC during the day, fight crime by night, and have hot sex when they get home, LOL.

 

Shit starts getting contrived when shows follow up the "will they/won't they" by finally establishing the relationship, only to throw twist after obstacle at the couple to "keep things interesting." I'd rather they put Oliver and Felicity together and continue to let the action drive the show.

[statsgirl]

Based on spoilers and character history, I assumed that

Oliver will be the one to stop things. I think he's just going to revert back to his previous way of thinking because Felicity being seriously hurt is exactly the kind of thing he was worried about. But I also think that Felicity will agree with him because a) she understands his feelings and b) I wouldn't be surprised if some of her insecurities come into play. Like if he can walk away from her does he truly want her? Also her reaction to Oliver killing the Count hints that she would never want him to kill for her so maybe that's why she steps away too. I'm guessing but the way one of the EP's said that we would be sympathetic to BOTH of them makes me think it's a mutually agreed kind of thing.

 

Don't forget, 

he also pushes away Diggle presumably so that Diggle will stay safe for the baby.

 

Does Oliver push away

both Diggle and Felicity to keep them safe

because he's worried that being on Team Arrow will get them killed?  In that case, welcome to the Arrow Cave, Laurel.

The way i see it, if it will come from Felicity side it will give Oliver the eventual (eventual) push to learn how to separate between his two personas. and i have said this before, my guess is that season 4 will be all about Oliver learning to balance these two sides of him without influencing the other.

I don't understand how it coming from Felicity will give Oliver the push to get back to her.  I'm honestly asking.  The way I see it, if it comes from Felicity, it will only serve to justify what he's been thinking of doing and convince him even more strongly to do it.

 

I can understand not wanting Oliver and Felicity to be together at the start of s3 (at the end, definitely) but I don't want it to be stupid. The only thing I want right now is for Felicity to have a choice, an alternative to Oliver so that she can choose him rather than fall into it. Goodness knows, Oliver has had plenty of alternatives the past two seasons.

Edited September 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[NumberCruncher]

Completely agree with you, KenyaJ. They don't need to make their relationship central to the storyline. I would be perfectly happy watching scenes of their relationship here and there as they work together on Team Arrow because the Olicity 'shipping has never been the main reason I watch the show. I suspect that's the case for most supporters of the couple, but I don't think the EPs have gotten that message based on all of the early S3 promotion. Overkill, much?

I also hate the dragged out "will they or won't they" of TV couples. To me, the shows that are most interesting to me are the ones that can write normal healthy relationships as a backdrop to all the crazy going on around them. Oliver's love life has been a virtual trainwreck thus far, wouldn't it be more refreshing to have him work towards some normalcy in that department and let the insanity of his vigilantism be the star attraction of the show? The show has done a pretty decent job already showing us that Felicity makes Oliver better and vice-versa, so the fact that they want to regress him back into his love life manpain kind of irritates. I don't need them to get married and pop out 20 kids, but could we please not undo 2 years of character progression and maturity just for the sake of creating relationship drama?

Edited September 26, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[pootlus]

I already upvoted your post NumberCruncher, but I'd like to add a massive WORD to all of it explicitly.  I like Olicity but I don't need or want it to have the focus of the show.

 

Just have Oliver learn to be in a normal relationship, put them together angst-free, then get on with the action!

 

I don't think the heavy Olicity on the promos is necessarily an indication of the content of the season, as it serves two purposes - gets people talking, and distracts people from other whammys that might be upcoming.  I think they've used Brandon Routh in the same way. "Look over here - shiny!"

[Guest]

Yeah, I'd much rather they put Olicity together sooner than later but I think they can afford to play with them for this season, especially as I think some development is needed on both sides. If they're still messing with it in s4, then we have a serious problem. 

[NumberCruncher]

Oh I don't think it's an indication of the season as a whole either, @Pootlus, but you might be right that it's being used as a distraction.  I just thought it strange that it was such a talking point and major focus at SDCC because while I know Olicity is popular, the pairing also becomes a lightning rod for the dissenters/critics who like to dismiss the show as falling prey to the typical, contrived WB fare and thus everything else good about the show gets ignored too.

 

P.S.  Brandon Routh is a sore subject with me, LOL. *still bitter*  I've never been a big fan of love triangles, but him in the center of something I already dislike means I am pretty much guaranteed to outright hate any potential Oliver/Felicity/Ray triangle.  I imagine that's what's already making me so cranky.  There better be plenty of other great relationships (i.e. Malcolm/Thea, Diggle/Lyla, Team Arrow) this season to distract me.

Edited September 25, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Chaser]

I'm all for a slow burn with Olicity. As long as it's used for development (both together and as individuals) and not delay. I want them to develop in S3 and get together in S4. And stay that way. There are enough outside forces to cause drama.

 

Love triangles make no sense to me. Especially one with a guest star. I still don't think its going to be a full on love triangle though. 

[blixie]

 

Felicity is taking away Oliver's agency by making the decision for him.

Eh, no one can take away another person's agency. Oliver isn't entitled to be The Decider. Yuck.

 

Also I don't get how Oliver makes decisions for other people and it's fine and doesn't make him a "bad" person, but if Felicity does it and she is? Okay. I don't need or want Felicity to be a perfect person no do I need their relationship to be mistake free and all positive making each other better sunshine out of their asses. I'm fine with her doing something not perfect out of genuine concern for both Oliver and for all the people he serves as Arrow, even if it is the wrong thing.

 

 

I don't understand the logic of not being with Felicity because he overreacts to the bad guys when she's involved.

While I agree,  I don't think it IS supposed to be logical, it's supposed to make emotional sense for Oliver, which is why I accept it both as his excuse w/Isabel and for both he and Felicity thinking about any future relationship within the structure of Team Arrow. However much they feel now, w/o a committed relationship the degree of investment and anxiety will obviously increase when they commit to one another. It will be complicated and hard to deal with the constant risk both are exposed to in their work, but the commensurate reward and benefit should make it worth it.

 

I absolutely want them to get together as angst free as possible ( I mean..it IS Oliver dude was tortured and is killer, angst "free" is always going to be relative). 

 

As far as Ray goes though, and the idea of Felicity being pushed out of Team Arrow, I think it's going to last longer than two episodes, but I think it will be largely Felicity under cova, she and Oliver will realize they need space and the Ray/QC thing will present an opportunity for them to have that space, with her working with/spying on Ray, with minimal time in the Lair itself. I can see that happening for about 4-6 episodes and taking them through mid-season. I do want it to be pretty much resolved by then though I want Oliver to see what's going down, and get over this whole dumb lack of duality/wholeness. I'd expect Felicity back full time in the lair in the second half and the relationship being cemented hopefully before they take on Ra's.

 

I realize it is all my personal fantasy, but I will let myself have it until it's disproved!

[statsgirl]

I agree, I think Felicity will be working for Ray till the cross-over episodes or more likely till the Christmas break.  At that point, Oliver with either have QC back or they will figure out Ray is a good guy and join forces with him.

 

 

Eh, no one can take away another person's agency. Oliver isn't entitled to be The Decider. Yuck.

 

Also I don't get how Oliver makes decisions for other people and it's fine and doesn't make him a "bad" person, but if Felicity does it and she is? Okay. I don't need or want Felicity to be a perfect person no do I need their relationship to be mistake free and all positive making each other better sunshine out of their asses. I'm fine with her doing something not perfect out of genuine concern for both Oliver and for all the people he serves as Arrow, even if it is the wrong thing.

Oliver isn't entitled to decide for Felicity, but she's not entitled to decide for him either.  That's why the scenario of Felicity overhearing Oliver talk to Diggle and deciding to let Oliver off the hook doesn't work for me.  If Oliver is having trouble dealing with whether he can have a relationship and Felicity does want a relationship but she decides to let Oliver off the hook and lies and tells him that she wants out, that's a relationship-killer in the long-term because there's nothing worse in a relationship than having your partner make the big decisions for you except having your partner make those decisions and then lie about how she or he feels.

 

Let's say Felicity does hear that Oliver is conflicted and tells him she doesn't want a relationship with him even though she does.  Later in the season, Oliver finally gets his stuff together and is in a place where he can be with Felicity, or Sara or Laurel or whoever, but now he thinks that Felicity doesn't want to be with him, so he starts dating someone else. And then Felicity thinks he doesn't want her so she dates someone else, and we have two years of them dating other people and miserable. (And I'm miserable too watching it all.)  That's not the kind of angsty soap opera I want this show to be.  Or any other show for that matter.. 

 

It's not fine that Oliver makes decisions for other people,  That's why I listed four cases where Oliver made decisions for other people and it turned out badly but there are other instances too.  Look at Thea, he decided to lie to her and now she's off with Malcolm Merlyn.  Look at Moira, he decided to not to tell  her about Slade and now she's dead.  Let people make their own decisions and learn from their own mistakes.

 

 

However much they feel now, w/o a committed relationship the degree of investment and anxiety will obviously increase when they commit to one another. It will be complicated and hard to deal with the constant risk both are exposed to in their work, but the commensurate reward and benefit should make it worth it.

I hope they use Diggle's relationship with Lyla to address that  you can be in a relationship and still let the one you love tackle the bad guys.

[catrox14]

Eh, I'm not so sure agency applies here. If one person decides for whatever reasons they no longer want to be in the relationship, that's that. The entire "it's not you, it's me" thing. 

[wonderwall]

I feel as though agency wouldn't apply here either because this decision essentially affects both Oliver and Felicity. So Felicity making a decision regarding their relationship because Oliver tends to be so wishy washy doesn't mean she's taking his agency away. 

[statsgirl]

Two people are in this potential relationship.  If Felicity wants and then overhears Oliver waffling so she tells him she doesn't want to be in the relationship (a lie), how is that not making the decision for him?, 

[wonderwall]

I feel as though there's a difference between Felicity making a decision for only Oliver and Felicity making a decision for the both of them. Oliver would have every right and every possibility to fight that decision (and I don't think Felicity will put up much of a fight if he does), but I don't think he will. He'll probably let her make the decision because he tends to be complacent when it comes to making tough decisions in relationships. Why should Felicity let herself be stuck in a crappy situation and put herself through that emotional distress when she can easily get out of it? If she does make a decision regarding their relationship, then I'm glad she makes it because it just goes to show how independent she can be. 

 

In the end, Felicity isn't the only one who has final say. They both do. And if Oliver stays silent, then that's his decision and an implicit agreement with Felicity and her decision. 

Edited September 26, 2014 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

But where is this Felicity overhearing something and then lying about her feelings coming from? None of the spoilers we have say any of that.

They EPs have said Oliver and Felicity have a pretty raw discussion in the premiere, and that their feelings for each other are revealed, and that we'd sympathize with both their reasoning for deciding not to pursue a relationship.

[Password]

The more we see them being schmoopy and in love the harder that will be to believe/understand. I hope it's a good discussion.