Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[way2interested]

Tbh, I just saw the lunge as the obligatory "each member of the main couple needs to have a love interest before getting together" trope along with checking off the "Green Arrow/Black Canary hookup" box before finally moving onto Oliver/Felicity. At that point, all the 2a build-up didn't really lead anywhere, so I figured something would come afterwards (not literally saying "I love you" in 223 but more something like their 222 moment), especially since CL was just recurring and EBR was a regular (and I get that some thought that she was pretty much a regular during 2b, but idk I just saw it as them trying to really get their mileage out of Sara before needing to bring it back to Laurel at some point, so I still always saw her as recurring). Arrow was following a bunch of tv tropes to a T so I was just rolling with them instead. 

[Mellowyellow]

I like Sara but there was so much Sara, hardly any Felicity from 215 to 220 (or was it 219, I've recently watched it and it was so forgettable). It was like he wasn't friends with Felicity anymore. Very 5Aish.

The Dyla stuff was adorable though. Them hooking up at the hotel and then Waller appearing. Someone mentioned that Lyla has changed heaps in 519 and she has from the S2 rewatch. She was much warmer, lighter in S2. Being the head of Argus has done a number on her. 

I'm making my way through S3 (minus Laurel becoming BC and the bloody flashbacks). Just finished 307 and I still love it so far Olicity wise. I was wondering if I was looking at S3 through rose tinted glasses but nope, so far still awesome.

EBR has wicked chemistry with Brandon Routh too. They should star in a romantic comedy together with plenty of hijinks.

Ray had his faults but I don't think they were any worse than Oliver's mistakes. Especially in light of BMD. I watched 318 and 319 before I decided to start from scratch so I'm looking forward to 320 but dreading the inevitable breaking of Ray's heart.

Random note: Someone needs to get Felicity another pair of PJ pants. She's got jackets worth over $1,000 but only ONE pair of PJ pants?????

[bijoux]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Random note: Someone needs to get Felicity another pair of PJ pants. She's got jackets worth over $1,000 but only ONE pair of PJ pants?????

She broke put a new pair in 509 for the mourning scene.

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, bijoux said:

She broke put a new pair in 509 for the mourning scene.

Oh my that is exciting! I shall look for it tomorrow! 

I'm on PJ watch! Aside from rewatching and analysing Olicity I'm watching for those damn PJs to see if they've changed. 

[bijoux]

Take note of the Oliver hopping on the balcony scene. I didn't pay much attention to her outfit then, I was more interested in how they played off each other.

[Midnight Lullaby]

That was my problem with Sara as well. The show became about her and Oliver and bye bye Dig and Felicity. No thanks. I binge watched S2 so it wasn't bad for me anyway because if I didn't love one episode I just had to move on to the next one and not being online I took for granted that Sara's story was a temporary thing and we were going to get back to how things were before after a few episodes.

I understood Oliver and Sara hooking up because I took it as looking for comfort in another person that is looking for the exact same thing and doesn't have illusions on who they are with because having been through similar traumatic experiences gave them an understanding of what they were thinking/feeling. I think for Oliver being with Felicity would have meant being with someone that made him want to be better and I don't think he was ready, I think he didn't believe he deserved that. And I think Sara was feeling alone and lost at the time.

I didn't mind them being together but I minded how they were writing Oliver when he was with her. It felt like his friends didn't exist anymore and going to the Lance family dinner was the cherry on top. It reminded me of how he was in season 1 when he messed things up with Dig because of Laurel. 

[apinknightmare]

I didn't mind Sara or the lunge only because at that point I still thought Oliver/Felicity was a pipe dream and was desperate for anything that wasn't the black hole of Oliver/Laurel. So I was like...."Okay, I'll take it!"

And by then I'd read up on comic canon and thought maybe they were going to go with BC Sara instead of BC Laurel. 

LOL @ me. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

48 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I didn't mind Sara or the lunge only because at that point I still thought Oliver/Felicity was a pipe dream and was desperate for anything that wasn't the black hole of Oliver/Laurel. So I was like...."Okay, I'll take it!"

And by then I'd read up on comic canon and thought maybe they were going to go with BC Sara instead of BC Laurel. 

LOL @ me. 

I was the opposite. I wasn't online until S3 and watching without spoilers/interviews I was sure Oliver/Felicity was the endgame. In my defense it was the best developed love story but you can imagine my surprise when I came online to people saying Oliver and Laurel were meant to be because of comic canon..I was looking at it as a tv viewer so my logic was that the couple with the cute first meeting, the romcom vibe in 2A was their main couple and it had to happen in later seasons because that's just how tv works, LOL.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Guest]

Yeah, I never minded the 213 "lunge" between O/S. I understood it. I didn't really like them turning what was an understandable one-off hook-up into a full blown relationship but whatever. It was better that than O/L and like others, I assumed Olicity was either never gonna happen or would just be a temporary romance at some point. (I marathoned the first 2 seasons and wasn't part of fandom so I seriously had no idea about anything. LOL.)

That being said, I hated when Sara took Oliver to the Lance family dinner and was totally, for the first time, on Laurel's side. That was just selfish and kinda cruel, even if it wasn't intentional. And I still didn't really like the idea of O/S after Oliver had been with Laurel again in s1. IDK. Even though I understood the lunge, I guess the whole bouncing between sisters was still super gross to me. But then I feel like O/S probably needed one more try to see that actually they weren't right for each other in the long term. My thoughts about the whole thing are a bit complicated tbh!

Edited June 7, 2017 by Guest

[Cleanqueen]

I took a break mid season 2 then just binged a bunch of episodes and the lunge happened in between the binge...I didn't mind it and at the time, I really did think Olicity was just a figment of my imagination until 2x20 pretty much confirmed these two were definitely going to get together. I never expected the ILY though.  

But looking back, I understood Sara taking Oliver to the dinner as wanting someone with her so she didn't feel awkward around her family the only issue is that she should've known that it would have caused an issue with Laurel. Both Laurel and Sara were selfish in my opinion. And I can't remember, but did Sara even apologize to Laurel?

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Two things, they didn't intend to spill the beans on their relationship so as bad an idea as going to the dinner was, it wasn't like they planned on rubbing Laurel's nose in it.   The other thing though, is I'm not sure why Laurel should have been considered before they got together.   Should they put their lives on hold for someone that didn't even want their help?  Also, after all the years that their lives had been on hold because of the hell they'd been through, I just couldn't begrudge them time together.  Plus, it wasn't like their getting together was what sent her to the booze and the pills.  She was there already and wasn't that because of Tommy and her own guilt?   Not to mention her own self obsession.  Laurel hated Sara just for being alive.  She couldn't even let her parents have a happy reunion with Sara.  

Maybe they didn't plan it, but sharing flirty smiles across the table with Laurel right there? Look, I'm not Laurel's biggest fan but damn that was so insensitive of them. And it's not as if they waited 5 years to go back to a relationship they both couldn't wait to have. Oliver & Sara, from how that relationship was framed in-show, merely fell back into old rhythms and excuses. Oliver was hiding from his feelings for Felicity and Sara, well, I'm not sure why Sara was banging Oliver. They never gave us her POV. But the shared history with these three people — four, if you count Tommy — is so deep and convoluted that it should have been something Sara and Oliver took into account before their lunge.

Also, and this is the biggest thing for me in these fucked-up relationship that is the Lance sisters/Oliver — is you never do that to your own sister. It doesn't matter that Sara had a crush first, Laurel was the one in a relationship with Oliver. Sara should never have dallied around with her sister's boyfriend. No sister should do that. Period. Again, that's just my opinion.

In terms of the narrative, I get why they did what they did. It was a stall for Olicity, and also a setup/diversion for Oliver's big "ILY" to Felicity in the end. But in terms of how Arrow told that story, they framed Oliver & Sara as uncaring, callous, insensitive, selfish creatures. But that's just my take. 

[tangerine95]

I binge watched the first two seasons but half way through I got spoiled about the ILY so I got through the Sara Oliver stuff pretty easily because knew it wouldn't last very long.But I really hated the middle eps.They had a great dynamic with OTA and with rom com olicity in the first half and then it basically stopped so they could play out the GA/BC show with some Lance drama on the side.

I did see why Sara and Oliver hooked up but yeah the relationship part and pushing it in Laurel's face was gross imo no matter how much I disliked her and didn't care about her.Especially for Sara who was all about getting Laurel to forgive her I had a hard time buying that she would risk that for a relationship that was a rebound and she didn't seem to think it would even last.Oliver turned into a jerk like he always does when pulled away from Digg and Felicity so he really wasn't fun to watch during that time.

It's easy to see now how they used S/O to bury L/O even more,to stall olicity and set up the ILY twist with Felicity and so they can say they did GA/BC in a way.But just looking at it as it was on the show,it didn't make them look good at all.

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I was the opposite. I wasn't online until S3 and watching without spoilers/interviews I was sure Oliver/Felicity was the endgame. In my defense it was the best developed love story but you can imagine my surprise when I came online to people saying Oliver and Laurel were meant to be because of comic canon..I was looking at it as a tv viewer so my logic was that the couple with the cute first meeting, the romcom vibe in 2A was their main couple and it had to happen in later seasons because that's just how tv works, LOL.

Same. I always figured Sara was just temporary stall for Olicity. In season 1 I had doubts about whether the writers would actually explore Olicity, but season 2 I felt pretty clear theyd picked a pony.

The 2x06 moments with Oliver being upset to be caught with Isabel and the "life I lead" conversation and 2x07 when he killed the count for her was when it was cinched for me. Then they had him visibly jealous of Barry and Felicity upset of Oliver being with Sara.

Even during Sara/Oliver relationship I felt there was a lot of movement for Olicity. There were moments like where he'd open up to Felicity and talk to her about things that he technically could have been talking to his girlfriend about and then when Thea got kidnapped I remember when Oliver was in panic mode there was a moment where they had both Sara and Diggle trying to appeal to Oliver and him arguing with them and it's only once Felicity spoke up that he stopped listened and was able to focus and bring the panic into bay. 

[insomniadreams88]

20 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I did see why Sara and Oliver hooked up but yeah the relationship part

This is how I felt. I could understand the 213 lunge, with both of them upset. What I didn't understand was 214 and suddenly they're in a relationship? I think it would have been better for Sara's character (and probably Oliver's too) if it had just been a one-time hookup or a couple other hookups during 2B as well.

They clearly really wanted the Lance family drama dinner, so Oliver could have even tagged along as Sara's friend (though why he went is something I will never understand) and they probably could have gotten the same result of Laurel upset, the hallway convo, etc. 

I just remember spending most of season 2 before the lunge going, "kiss already!" to Oliver and Felicity, especially at the end of 210. I think they probably could have still stretched it out and gotten the shock over the finale ILY without Oliver and Sara in a relationship. 

[tv echo]

20 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Oliver say "I've loved you for half my life?"  For the Queen men, apparently loving someone and cheating on/lying to them go hand-in-hand.

From 2x14 (Time of Death) -
Laurel: "You are unbelievable! You lecture me on how I need to repair my relationship with Sara when you're the one who messed it up in the first place. By screwing her!  And now you're doing it again."
Oliver: "You're right. This is all my fault."
Laurel: "Yeah. Yeah, yes, it is."
Oliver: "And is you losing your job, doing drugs and being a drunk, is that my fault? Is that your family's fault, or are you going to blame Tommy for dying?"
Laurel: "Screw you, Oliver."
Oliver: "I have stood by you through everything - the DUI, losing your job, and Laurel, I was concerned about your well-being when you were trying to get my mother the death penalty!"
Laurel: "Yeah, you've been a real stand-up kind of guy."
Oliver: "Laurel, do you think you're the only one that is having a hard time?! Do you think you're the only one with family issues? You have - you have no idea what is going on with my family right now. But I am still standing here. And you are still blaming everybody but yourself."
Laurel: "Are you done?"
Oliver: "Yeah. Yeah, I'm done. I'm done taking the blame. And I'm done caring. Why don't you go have a drink? Get wasted, go - go to Verdant. I'll pay for it. I have loved you for half my life. But I'm done running after you."

Edited June 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

Woah, that's even worse than I remembered it. And after this she still wanted to get back together with him. WHY WOMAN?? WHY??

[tangerine95]

That was a weird scene for me tbh.I did want Oliver to just be done with his guilt about what he did because it's not like he can take it back and I wanted him to realize his worth isn't connected to Laurel's opinion of him which I think this scene definitely did.He kinda just distanced himself from her and any later friendship was more her pushing her way into his life.But it was also really bad timing,he and Sara were being jerks.No matter how nervous Sara was about the family dinner,she had to know bringing Oliver and just having both or them in front of Laurel would only cause drama.And Oliver was gross for dating her sister again,even if their relationship was totally done.Honestly all it made me think is how terrible that whole dynamic is and how Laurel and Oliver literally have no place even talking to each other at all,let alone being friends.It was just so unrealistic and unlike how actual humans would behave,even for a show like this.

[Cleanqueen]

But homeboy wasn't even running after her at that point. He showed no romantic feelings for her in S2...then we saw the flashbacks in 4x19 he literally ran from her.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[ladylaw99]

Seeing that scene written out is even worst and that is why I don't understand why anyone would want them together.  I don't even think they like eachother base on that scene.

[tv echo]

I've often wondered how Oliver and Laurel started dating.  What would've happened had Laurel not tipped the cops off about that party, and Sara hooked up with Oliver there? Would Oliver and Sara started dating, and Sara would've been Oliver's girlfriend? I can't see Sara putting up with his cheating, though, even if she was in love with him back then. Did Laurel have feelings for Oliver at the same time as Sara, or did she only notice Oliver after finding out that Sara had a crush on him? It seems too much of a coincidence that Oliver and Laurel started dating only after Sara was grounded.

Edited June 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Cleanqueen]

I would also like to know if Oliver would cheat if he  was dating anyone other than Laurel Lance. I always wondered if it was so easy for him to cheat because Laurel was basically OK with it. Yeah he was a rich spoiled kid but I don't think all rich spoiled kids cheat on their girlfriends consistently. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[theOAfc]

7 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

That was a weird scene for me tbh.I did want Oliver to just be done with his guilt about what he did because it's not like he can take it back and I wanted him to realize his worth isn't connected to Laurel's opinion of him which I think this scene definitely did.He kinda just distanced himself from her and any later friendship was more her pushing her way into his life.But it was also really bad timing,he and Sara were being jerks.No matter how nervous Sara was about the family dinner,she had to know bringing Oliver and just having both or them in front of Laurel would only cause drama.And Oliver was gross for dating her sister again,even if their relationship was totally done.Honestly all it made me think is how terrible that whole dynamic is and how Laurel and Oliver literally have no place even talking to each other at all,let alone being friends.It was just so unrealistic and unlike how actual humans would behave,even for a show like this.

Yeah he was an asshole knowing that she had a drinking problem and yet acting like this while dating her sister in front of her. Not gonna lie,this type of scenes  can provide the opportunity for nice angst betweem two characters but since this is arrow and the writers only manage to taint dynamics by writing scenes and giving them almost zero pay off instead of building to something meaningful and cathartic,it eventually came off weird and ruined this dynamic even more(as if the toxic background and the anti chemistry werent enough).

After this episode, Oliver and Laurel were almost strangers for the most part of s2 and eventually the few scenes they shared towards the end of the season were mediocre at best(both writing and acting but i blame the writing for the most part) and instead of having the viewers feel like this dynamic was being honored by giving a nice closure to the fights and the "ugly" tension they had in 2x14,it seemed more like the writers moved on, ignoring what could and should have been a nice way of highlighting the dynamic between these two characters. In orther words,what im trying to say here is that i think the script unintentionally made it seem like Oliver didnt care at all for Laurel because he abandoned her at the lowest point of her life with zero struggle being shown after 2x14 thus pushing the idea that he couldnt care less about her.

They did give a cheap closure to their seasons 1-3 storyline in 4x05 but that was just a filler episode and didnt seem meaningful at all since after that their dynamic was almost non existent up until the episodes towards Laurel's death that they suddenly became besties,talking about personal stuff out of nowhere. 

[Hiveminder]

34 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

I would also like to know if Oliver would cheat if he  was dating anyone other than Laurel Lance. I always wondered if it was so easy for him to cheat because Laurel was basically OK with it. Yeah he was a rich spoiled kid but I don't think all rich spoiled kids cheat on their girlfriends consistently. 

I don't like that line of thinking because it basically makes Oliver's cheating Laurel's fault, and even though I don't like Laurel Oliver's behavior is all on Oliver. 

For what it's worth, I do think Oliver would have cheated on a different girlfriend back then. He was a deeply immature asshole. I just think that someone who wasn't Laurel would have done what she should have and dumped his ass, so he probably wouldn't have had a girlfriend to cheat on for very long. 

[lemotomato]

I guess I'm the only person here that didn't feel any sympathy at all for Laurel in 214 because she had been an utterly shitty person up until then. Just the episode before she greeted her back-from-the-dead sister, who had gone through who knows what, by throwing a glass at her and screaming at her for stealing her life. She was stealing pain pills from her dad, who needed them because he had gotten seriously hurt in an incident where he also lost his partner. When Thea and Oliver tried to help her in 212, she threw their past mistakes in their faces. Right before she stormed out of the dinner (which she had spent the entirety sulking and glaring, even before finding out about Sara/Oliver), she yelled at her dad after he'd just been embarrassed by her mom. One could argue that she was suffering from addiction and wasn't in control of her actions needed to be treated delicately, but that's what everyone was doing for 14 episodes and it was not working. She needed to be called out on her shit at that point, and no one in her immediate family would do it, so it fell to Oliver. 

[BunsenBurner]

@lemotomato I couldn't agree with you more.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Except Oliver didn't treat her like crap out of concern for her wellbeing but because he was mad and just left..you never know how a person suffering from addiction might react and I think the last thing Oliver needed was to feel guilty because he told her to go get drunk, she did it and ended up harming herself/other people. I wouldn't say something like that even to a horrible person and even less to someone I cared about but that's just me..

[Hiveminder]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I guess I'm the only person here that didn't feel any sympathy at all for Laurel in 214 because she had been an utterly shitty person up until then. Just the episode before she greeted her back-from-the-dead sister, who had gone through who knows what, by throwing a glass at her and screaming at her for stealing her life. She was stealing pain pills from her dad, who needed them because he had gotten seriously hurt in an incident where he also lost his partner. When Thea and Oliver tried to help her in 212, she threw their past mistakes in their faces. Right before she stormed out of the dinner (which she had spent the entirety sulking and glaring, even before finding out about Sara/Oliver), she yelled at her dad after he'd just been embarrassed by her mom. One could argue that she was suffering from addiction and wasn't in control of her actions needed to be treated delicately, but that's what everyone was doing for 14 episodes and it was not working. She needed to be called out on her shit at that point, and no one in her immediate family would do it, so it fell to Oliver. 

You're not the only one. Even though I know bringing Oliver to that dinner was a bad move on Sara's part, I didn't feel a bit sorry for Laurel. Just like I don't feel sorry for her being constantly cheated on by him, even though I place all the blame for that solely on Oliver. 

Plus, that scene gave me one of my favorite things, Oliver giving Laurel a super harsh set down and then storming away into her apartment. 

[Cleanqueen]

32 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I don't like that line of thinking because it basically makes Oliver's cheating Laurel's fault, and even though I don't like Laurel Oliver's behavior is all on Oliver. 

For what it's worth, I do think Oliver would have cheated on a different girlfriend back then. He was a deeply immature asshole. I just think that someone who wasn't Laurel would have done what she should have and dumped his ass, so he probably wouldn't have had a girlfriend to cheat on for very long. 

I don't blame her for his cheating but I do blame her for accepting it and staying with him. After that point she wasn't an innocent party. And yes they do say once a cheat always a cheat but that isn't necessarily always the case.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[tangerine95]

I didn't really feel bad for her and I agree she was being terrible to everyone all season and clearly no amount of trying to talk to her nicely had worked,it was more I wish Oliver called her out in a moment where he wasn't also being a shitty person and when she did have a reason to be upset.They all looked horrible through most of that storyline imo as would be expected when they brought back the sister swapping.

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

I don't blame her for his cheating but I do blame her for accepting it and staying with him. After that point she wasn't an innocent party. And yes the do say once a cheat always a cheat but that isn't necessarily always the case.  

He hooked up with his friend's fiancée at their rehearsal dinner so I'd say he just wasn't that great of a person back then..

[Cleanqueen]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

He hooked up with his friend's fiancée at their rehearsal dinner so I'd say he just wasn't that great of a person back then..

he was a spoiled rich brat who got away with things because everyone allowed him to act that way. 

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Except Oliver didn't treat her like crap out of concern for her wellbeing but because he was mad and just left..you never know how a person suffering from addiction might react and I think the last thing Oliver needed was to feel guilty because he told her to go get drunk, she did it and ended up harming herself/other people. I wouldn't say something like that even to a horrible person and even less to someone I cared about but that's just me..

Oliver, at that point, had spent the whole season trying to be supportive of her. He expressed concern for her after the Dollmaker incident, he assigned himself to keep an eye on her when the LoA assassin came to town hunting Sara, he absolved her from blame when she was prosecuting his mother in a case where the death penalty was involved, he (as GA) helped her investigate Sebastian Blood, and he visited her in the hospital when she got poisoned. All that, and he only blew up at her after he saw her treat her family like garbage. Did he say some harsh things? Sure. But as a viewer I was completely fed up with Laurel, so I understand why Oliver just lost it and said what he said. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Cleanqueen said:

he was a spoiled rich brat who got away with things because everyone allowed him to act that way. 

Some people manage to be decent even if they had horrible parents..strict parents would have probably made him a better man (before the island) but also it was his choice as an adult to act that way.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

Oliver and Sara turning to each other has always made sense to me. It's not what I would have chosen, and in fact I wished and predicted it had been left at hooking up once, but I understood it. Oliver just wasn't ready for Felicity and must have thought they were even more unthinkable than she did, and he and Sara got each other and didn't fear that they might sully the other person. My one complaint is that their team ups took over the show for a while.

I always understood on principle and and for plot, but it's only recently where I was able to really get into the thought process and specific emotions.  Now even Oliver having that weird freak out that Sara shouldn't be around him makes sense to me in that moment.  

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I like Sara but there was so much Sara, hardly any Felicity from 215 to 220 (or was it 219, I've recently watched it and it was so forgettable). It was like he wasn't friends with Felicity anymore. Very 5Aish.

 

Very much this.  I remember viewers just dropping like flies from the boards, feeling like the show was moving away from what was working.  This was the first year of the horrible back half stretch.  It was so rough.  

1 hour ago, Cleanqueen said:

But homeboy wasn't even running after her at that point. He showed no romantic feelings for her in S2...then we saw the flashbacks in 4x19 he literally ran from her.

He'd been still dancing in attendance, trying to help and be there and I think he was still trying to earn her forgiveness, that was part of the running after her.  But he finally in that episode stopped letting his guilt over Laurel in the past control him.  And that was very welcome.  

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

Yeah he was an asshole knowing that she had a drinking problem and yet acting like this while dating her sister in front of her. Not gonna lie,this type of scenes  can provide the opportunity for nice angst betweem two characters but since this is arrow and the writers only manage to taint dynamics by writing scenes and giving them almost zero pay off instead of building to something meaningful and cathartic,it eventually came off weird and ruined this dynamic even more(as if the toxic background and the anti chemistry werent enough).

After this episode, Oliver and Laurel were almost strangers for the most part of s2 and eventually the few scenes they shared towards the end of the season were mediocre at best(both writing and acting but i blame the writing for the most part) and instead of having the viewers feel like this dynamic was being honored by giving a nice closure to the fights and the "ugly" tension they had in 2x14,it seemed more like the writers moved on, ignoring what could and should have been a nice way of highlighting the dynamic between these two characters. In orther words,what im trying to say here is that i think the script unintentionally made it seem like Oliver didnt care at all for Laurel because he abandoned her at the lowest point of her life with zero struggle being shown after 2x14 thus pushing the idea that he couldnt care less about her.

They did give a cheap closure to their seasons 1-3 storyline in 4x05 but that was just a filler episode and didnt seem meaningful at all since after that their dynamic was almost non existent up until the episodes towards Laurel's death that they suddenly became besties,talking about personal stuff out of nowhere. 

At that point, it felt to me that they weren't doing any favors to Laurel by coddling her.  She IMO needed to head toward rock bottom and I think Oliver washing his hands of her even though he owed her for how much he'd done her wrong, was the reality slap she needed.  

37 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I guess I'm the only person here that didn't feel any sympathy at all for Laurel in 214 because she had been an utterly shitty person up until then. Just the episode before she greeted her back-from-the-dead sister, who had gone through who knows what, by throwing a glass at her and screaming at her for stealing her life. She was stealing pain pills from her dad, who needed them because he had gotten seriously hurt in an incident where he also lost his partner. When Thea and Oliver tried to help her in 212, she threw their past mistakes in their faces. Right before she stormed out of the dinner (which she had spent the entirety sulking and glaring, even before finding out about Sara/Oliver), she yelled at her dad after he'd just been embarrassed by her mom. One could argue that she was suffering from addiction and wasn't in control of her actions needed to be treated delicately, but that's what everyone was doing for 14 episodes and it was not working. She needed to be called out on her shit at that point, and no one in her immediate family would do it, so it fell to Oliver. 

Yeah, Oliver and Sara were beyond stupid and insensitive, but their actions couldn't be blamed for how awful Laurel was already behaving.  She was being purposely cruel and it was coldly done, without even the heat of anger behind it, just twisting the knife because she could.   Oliver was so harsh but it was in the heat of the moment and I still feel like she hurt her dad a lot more during dinner than Oliver hurt her with the drinking comment.    

29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Except Oliver didn't treat her like crap out of concern for her wellbeing but because he was mad and just left..you never know how a person suffering from addiction might react and I think the last thing Oliver needed was to feel guilty because he told her to go get drunk, she did it and ended up harming herself/other people. I wouldn't say something like that even to a horrible person and even less to someone I cared about but that's just me..

If he told her to go get a drink and she did and caused herself or others harm, Oliver wouldn't be responsible.  Laurel would still be responsible.  She was never going to improve until Laurel took personal responsibility for what she was doing.  It would have been tragic and sad if something happened, but Oliver or anyone else blaming themselves would just further undermine the message of being personally responsible.  

Sometimes the only way up is to hit rock bottom.  Tough love.  And maybe Oliver was mad when he said all that to Laurel, but he wouldn't be that mad or upset if he didn't care.  Still, I was all for him ending he pattern of behavior around Laurel.  He needed to stop blaming himself for everything she did and so even though the trigger of the argument was all on Oliver (and he acknowledges that) that was just a minor part of the bigger problems.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Oliver, at that point, had spent the whole season trying to be supportive of her. He expressed concern for her after the Dollmaker incident, he assigned himself to keep an eye on her when the LoA assassin came to town hunting Sara, he absolved her from blame when she was prosecuting his mother in a case where the death penalty was involved, he (as GA) helped her investigate Sebastian Blood, and he visited her in the hospital when she got poisoned. All that, and he only blew up at her after he saw her treat her family like garbage. Did he say some harsh things? Sure. But as a viewer I was completely fed up with Laurel, so I understand why Oliver just lost it and said what he said. 

I can understand his frustration but that night he showed up at her apartment with her sister he was sleeping with again knowing Laurel was at her most vulnerable so I don't think he had a leg to stand on. I didn't like Laurel, I think she was self centered and arrogant but that story did no favors to Oliver in my eyes.

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

If he told her to go get a drink and she did and caused herself or others harm, Oliver wouldn't be responsible.  Laurel would still be responsible.  She was never going to improve until Laurel took personal responsibility for what she was doing.  It would have been tragic and sad if something happened, but Oliver or anyone else blaming themselves would just further undermine the message of being personal responsibility.  

Sometimes the only way up is to hit rock bottom.  Tough love.  And maybe Oliver wasn't mad when he said all that to Laurel, but he wouldn't be that mad or upset if he didn't care.  Still, I was all for him ending he pattern of behavior around Laurel.  He needed to stop blaming himself for everything she did and so even though the trigger of the argument was all on Oliver (and he acknowledges that) that was just a minor part of the bigger problems.  

I didn't say Oliver would have been responsible but that he would have felt guilty and that was the last thing he needed. Oliver's thing is to blame himself.

Yeah but I didn't see tough love. I saw no love, that's what I was saying. Like Laurel when Oliver first came back told him she wished he rotted in hell longer than five years I understood why she was angry but that's a horrible thing to say to a person.

[BkWurm1]

20 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I can understand his frustration but that night he showed up at her apartment with her sister he was sleeping with again knowing Laurel was at her most vulnerable so I don't think he had a leg to stand on. I didn't like Laurel, I think she was self centered and arrogant but that story did no favors to Oliver in my eyes.

It wasn't about having a leg to stand on, that was just the trigger that let all the emotions he'd been biting back down to finally come spilling out.  And the timing of what brought up all the issues wasn't IMO enough to negate the truth bombs he was dropping.  Ideally, he'd have that confrontation while completely on the moral high ground but they needed something to trigger Laurel's rage as well.  I liked it because it felt like a good metaphor for their whole relationship, it was always complicated with Oliver being to blame for an awful lot but Laurel being so horrid and emotionally cruel that it was hard not to root for Oliver even when he has all his very real mistakes that have done Laurel wrong.     

Edited June 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I didn't say Oliver would have been responsible but that he would have felt guilty and that was the last thing he needed. Oliver's thing is to blame himself.

Yeah but I didn't see tough love. I saw no love, that's what I was saying. Like Laurel when Oliver first came back told him she wished he rotted in hell longer than five years I understood why she was angry but that's a horrible thing to say to a person.

Or maybe Oliver wouldn't have blamed himself.  That was what him being done running after her was about.  Breaking the emotional responsibility. Knowing Oliver, you are probably right an it wouldn't have lasted long before the guilt came creeping, but maybe not.  Maybe he would have felt sadness but not that kind of guilt.  

No, when Laurel told him she wished he'd rotted in hell a lot longer, there was no love there, but then she wasn't trying to show any love.  She didn't want anything to do with him.  Oliver was in a different place.  They'd been on "friendly" terms for at least a year.  He was done putting up with her behavior and in that moment, seemed done with her but they were in the middle of a very heated argument.  Doesn't mean there isn't any caring left underneath it.

[theOAfc]

35 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah but I didn't see tough love. I saw no love, that's what I was saying.

This scene would have appeared as "tough love" if there were  following scenes showing Oliver struggling with it or being concerned with how things turned out or even regretting his behavior at dinner(this isnt about how viewers feel or whether a fan hates or loves Laurel so its not about us being happy she was put in her place or whatever,its about the show presenting Oliver a certain way when it comes to certain people and how this defines their dynamics). Whether he had a right to be frustrated at her or not,he acted like an asshole at this dinner especially considering her condition. Yet its the way things were handled afterwards that made it seem more like he was tired of her and couldnt care less. As a writer you dont just write such a "heavy" harsh scene only to ignore the aftermath and "resolve" it later with a lame scene that viewers wont even remember. Yes Oliver told her things she needed to hear but then he left and didnt even bother to deal with it afterwards(its like this scene had an affect on Laurel but not on Oliver who, from what i recall ,moved on completely ).

When people are sick ,they are the ones that fist and foremost need to understand they need to get help. Thats true. However when people we care about get sick(like her drug addiction) we dont abandon them even if we are harsh at times.  We dont just  wait for them to get better,we help them until they get better. Even when it gets ugly and even when we are forced to be harsh on them. After 2x14 Oliver didnt seem to bother at all with her and only did when she approached him first. Yes she was mainly responsible for getting better but Oliver acting like this in this scene and showing apathy afterwards was not love at all because thats not how someone acts when they care for a person who is in such a mental state probably at their lowest point of life.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by theOAfc

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Or maybe Oliver wouldn't have blamed himself.  That was what him being done running after her was about.  Breaking the emotional responsibility. Knowing Oliver, you are probably right an it wouldn't have lasted long before the guilt came creeping, but maybe not.  Maybe he would have felt sadness but not that kind of guilt.  

No, when Laurel told him she wished he'd rotted in hell a lot longer, there was no love there, but then she wasn't trying to show any love.  She didn't want anything to do with him.  Oliver was in a different place.  They'd been on "friendly" terms for at least a year.  He was done putting up with her behavior and in that moment, seemed done with her but they were in the middle of a very heated argument.  Doesn't mean there isn't any caring left underneath it.

Yeah, I really can't see Oliver not blaming himself for something like that. I still don't know if he has learned the lesson now, but back in season 2 he was still blaming himself for Shado's death when all he did was jumping in front of Sara to shield her..

I used that as an example of two situations where while I understood the anger I thought what they said did them no favors because if was something really harsh towards a person in a vulnerable position.

Oliver cared for Laurel at that point but his speech imo wasn't an example of tough love to help her, he just was beyond angry and done with all of it. If he was doing it to help her he would have at least checked that it worked, instead he left. So even if I understand his feelings that whole story made them all look horrible to me.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

We dont just  wait for them to get better,we help them until they get better. Even when it gets ugly and even when we are forced to be harsh on them. After 2x14 Oliver didnt seem to bother at all with her and only did when she approached him first. Yes she was mainly responsible for getting better but Oliver acting like this in this scene and showing apathy afterwards was not love at all because thats not how someone acts when they care for a person who is in such a mental state probably at their lowest point of life.  

Sometimes there is a fine line between helping them until they get better and enabling in a way that means they don't get to the point where they recognize they MUST get help and make changes.  

I also think it is important to recall what was going on in Oliver's life at the time while Laurel was making steps to recover.  Slade was a looming threat to everyone.  I can see Oliver thinking having as little to do with Laurel as possible as even being a positive thing for her.  Plus as long as he was with Sara, would she even deep down want him around?

Things started happening really fast after 2-14, she and Sara make up and by 2-15 she giving out advice on their love life.  I tend to think that by this point, she and Oliver have had some offscreen conversation saying their sorry's even if just to move forward while still not hanging out or being a big part of each other's life.  Oliver is still plenty concerned about her in 2-17  when they save her from the Huntress but she's not the only big priority in his life.  Or even the main one.  That's dealing with Roy's rage and in 2-18, Thea's kidnapping and feelings of betrayal. I just think Oliver had more important things to worry about than Laurel who he'd have been hearing good news about through Sara, so I can't hold him not getting specific scenes showing his worry or support against him or as that significant. 

Now 218 is also when Laurel finds out about Oliver's secret.  And then in 2-19 she's thinking about trading Oliver for her father. When her dad urges her not to (with him knowing he's doing it) she then instead is all supportive of Oliver but Oliver isn't shown to be negative toward Laurel, just surprised.  So I guess I think their relationship was mostly mended right away and the lack of interaction didn't mean anything more than it did with Oliver and the OTA.  Just different writing priorities.  

And by 2-20 Moira dies so Laurel REALLY wasn't a big priority then, but by the start of season three, they are perfectly chummy.  

Edited June 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

When people are sick ,they are the ones that fist and foremost need to understand they need to get help. Thats true. However when people we care about get sick(like her drug addiction) we dont abandon them even if we are harsh at times.  We dont just  wait for them to get better,we help them until they get better. Even when it gets ugly and even when we are forced to be harsh on them. After 2x14 Oliver didnt seem to bother at all with her and only did when she approached him first. Yes she was mainly responsible for getting better but Oliver acting like this in this scene and showing apathy afterwards was not love at all because thats not how someone acts when they care for a person who is in such a mental state probably at their lowest point of life.  

Except that before Oliver yelled at her, she wasn't admitting that she had a problem and she wasn't trying to get help. IIRC, Quentin had tried to get to her to attend an AA meeting, and she balked. The show had dragged out her addiction arc for 14 episodes with her being unrelentingly awful as everyone treated her with kid gloves. Maybe his approach wasn't the best if it were a real life situation, but as someone watching it on TV I wanted to throw Oliver a party for snapping her out of it. And I really wasn't the least bit interested in seeing him spend more time with her when there were far more interesting things going on NOT about Laurel.

Edited June 7, 2017 by lemotomato

[johntfs]

After everything about Season Two this thread reminded me of, I find myself kind of glad they killed Sara at the start of Season Three.  It gave them time to really figure the character out and turn her into someone who wasn't at least partly shitty.

Season Two Sara gives me a little extra insight into Ra's al Ghul as well.  To him, he met this brilliant, brave amazing woman back in the 1960s and kept waiting for her to show back up.  So, he dutifully sends Nyssa to the vicinity of Lian Yui where she picks up Sara Lance and brings her back to the LoA.  Ra's at that point is likely pleased to be the one to help set her one the path to becoming the amazing person he knew before.  Except this isn't that Sara.  This is a Sara who is in the League, but not truly of it.  A Sara who is not a true match for his Nyssa but is somewhat using her.  A Sara he is likely happy to release, reluctant to welcome back and then fine with releasing again.  A Sara he would likely have killed, if not for the time travel business.  And then Sara is murdered.

At that point I think Ra's realizes a few things.  First, he knows that despite Sara being exposed to the Lazarus Pit he knows he couldn't have done it.  He knows the effect the Pit has on the dead (as opposed to the aged or wounded) and never be as cruel to Nyssa as to turn her beloved into a vile, animalistic thing like that which cannot, to his knowledge be restored.  So, Ra's knows he didn't do it.  He also knows that Nyssa would never do it either.  Finally he remembers about how hold Sara was in the 60s and that's not much older than she was now.  So, someone else must have taken the title of Ra's al Ghul and allowed the Lazarus Pit to resurrect Sara (presumably with a way to mostly heal her as well).  Which means that he, the current Ra's, had to die for that to happen.  It also means his child Nyssa is would also have to be dead, since she is his Heir.  Ra's is a person who could face his own death, but not that of his child, his beloved Heir.  So with Sara dead and the clock ticking, he begins to look around for a Plan B.

By this point Ra's knows of Oliver Queen through Nyssa and quite possibly through Talia as well.  Investigation of his past activities shows Oliver to be a man of unyielding purpose and ruthless determination, which is exactly what a new Ra's al Ghul should have.  So, fighting the always creeping madness of the Lazarus Pit he sets out to turn Oliver into his successor and someone with the mental tolerance to bring Sara back from the dead so she can meet her true destiny as has been preordained by her earlier time travel.  And he also protects Nyssa at the same time.  Unlike Malcolm perhaps, Ra's believes a father should die for his children, not the reverse.

[DrSpaceman10]

10 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Also, and this is the biggest thing for me in these fucked-up relationship that is the Lance sisters/Oliver — is you never do that to your own sister. It doesn't matter that Sara had a crush first, Laurel was the one in a relationship with Oliver. Sara should never have dallied around with her sister's boyfriend. No sister should do that. Period. Again, that's just my opinion.

This. Plus, the way they added that whole "Sara had a crush first and Laurel got in the way" thing in the flashbacks, just to make Sara not look as bad when the lunge happened, was unfair to Laurel's character (and I don't even like her). It's part of the reason I've never really cared for either sister. 

After all of this time, I still feel exactly the same about 2B, haha. 

[statsgirl]

I liked Sara and I understood the lunge.  I figured the show was going Olicity from the hot & sweaty Tarzan save in 2x01 but that didn't mean I was going to enjoy Oliver with Sara.  But what annoyed me most was that Felicity and Diggle became spear carries to the Oliver/Sara/Slade show present and flashbacks.  But I really hated how Oliver ignored Felicity, especially right after telling her she would never lose him, and worse put her back in her tech box after she tried to train.  There are times in this show when the hero is definitely unpleasant.

6 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Except that before Oliver yelled at her, she wasn't admitting that she had a problem and she wasn't trying to get help. IIRC, Quentin had tried to get to her to attend an AA meeting, and she balked. The show had dragged out her addiction arc for 14 episodes with her being unrelentingly awful as everyone treated her with kid gloves. Maybe his approach wasn't the best if it were a real life situation, but as someone watching it on TV I wanted to throw Oliver a party for snapping her out of it

Is that proof how important Oliver is to Laurel?  Her father couldn't do it, her mother and sister couldn't do it but Oliver yells at her and she straightens out.

22 hours ago, Featherhat said:

 Not only did Laurel give it to him whilst he was telling her sister to circle the block a few times, he must have had it in his pocket whilst he was literally on top of Sara moments before the bomb went off. Just Gross Ollie.

That's way more gross than the sister-swap they started the show with. 

11 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Aiiii 2B sucked Olicity-wise. It's like the frigging dessert! And barely any Felicity screentime. I forgot how bad it was. And people b#tch about S3 (which got good ratings didn't it???)!

Did like that moment in 218 when he was squabbling with Sara and then Felicity stood up and told him to go get Thea and end it and he went.

I think in their minds, this was how they were keeping Olicity going while writing Oliver/Sara.  It's the same thing as in 5a when they had Oliver and Felicity working together as "mom and dad" while acting like strangers.

The problem is that they have a plan and they think it's going to be received a certain way and when it isn't and people complain or drop the show, they're caught completely unawares.  You'd think they would have learned by now.

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

From 2x14 (Time of Death) -
Laurel: "You are unbelievable! You lecture me on how I need to repair my relationship with Sara when you're the one who messed it up in the first place. By screwing her!  And now you're doing it again."

Interesting things, flashbacks. We now know that the relationship was messed up long before Laurel started dating Oliver.

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

I've often wondered how Oliver and Laurel started dating.  [snip] Did Laurel have feelings for Oliver at the same time as Sara, or did she only notice Oliver after finding out that Sara had a crush on him? It seems too much of a coincidence that Oliver and Laurel started dating only after Sara was grounded.

It seems like Laurel was competitive of Sara even before Oliver entered the picture. Laurel may have had feelings for Oliver before but it was only when Sara showed an interest that she went full on bagging him.  I don't know how competitive of Laurel Sara was because we don't have any information on that.

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

 A Sara who is not a true match for his Nyssa but is somewhat using her.  A Sara he is likely happy to release, reluctant to welcome back and then fine with releasing again.  A Sara he would likely have killed, if not for the time travel business.  And then Sara is murdered.

At that point I think Ra's realizes a few things.  First, he knows that despite Sara being exposed to the Lazarus Pit he knows he couldn't have done it.  He knows the effect the Pit has on the dead (as opposed to the aged or wounded) and never be as cruel to Nyssa as to turn her beloved into a vile, animalistic thing like that which cannot, to his knowledge be restored.  So, Ra's knows he didn't do it.  He also knows that Nyssa would never do it either.  Finally he remembers about how hold Sara was in the 60s and that's not much older than she was now.  So, someone else must have taken the title of Ra's al Ghul and allowed the Lazarus Pit to resurrect Sara (presumably with a way to mostly heal her as well).  Which means that he, the current Ra's, had to die for that to happen.  It also means his child Nyssa is would also have to be dead, since she is his Heir.  Ra's is a person who could face his own death, but not that of his child, his beloved Heir.  So with Sara dead and the clock ticking, he begins to look around for a Plan B.

But it was Ra's himself who removed Nyssa as his heir.

In s2 of Arrow, I didn't notice any affection towards Sara on the part of Ra's, nor any acceptance of her relationship with Nyssa in s3.  Nyssa was the one who released Sara from being part of the LoA, possible at risk to herself (I can't quite remember).  In s3, Ra's acively stopped Nyssa from avenging Sara's death even though Sara had died on a mission for Ra's himself.

I think you wrong Sara in saying that she was using Nyssa.  The writers broke them up quickly for LoT ti make Sara free for other love interests but everything I was between her and Nyssa seemed genuine to me.

[johntfs]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But it was Ra's himself who removed Nyssa as his heir.

In s2 of Arrow, I didn't notice any affection towards Sara on the part of Ra's, nor any acceptance of her relationship with Nyssa in s3.  Nyssa was the one who released Sara from being part of the LoA, possible at risk to herself (I can't quite remember).  In s3, Ra's acively stopped Nyssa from avenging Sara's death even though Sara had died on a mission for Ra's himself.

I think you wrong Sara in saying that she was using Nyssa.  The writers broke them up quickly for LoT ti make Sara free for other love interests but everything I was between her and Nyssa seemed genuine to me.

Sure, Ra's removed her.  He wanted her out of the line of fire.  My overall take on Ra's is that he was a guy with incomplete information fighting for his daughter's life against Time itself.

He stopped Nyssa from avenging Sara because he knew she'd be back.

I think overall that Season Two Sara, whether she thought she was using Nyssa or not, is still the person who invited Oliver Queen to a private family dinner to let slip to Laurel "Hey guys, Oliver and I are fucking again."

Overall I think dying and going through the crucible of resurrection and restoration actively made Sara into a better human being.  She's at least somewhat different in other ways, too.  We comment that Sara is bi-sexual, but have we actually seen her show any attraction toward any male on LoT?  She seems pretty exclusively female. 

One other weird thing in Ra's corner is that when Sara, Ray and Kendra were left stranded on Earth, Sara still went back to Ra's and the LoA even though at that point she surely knew about the events in Season 3.  Figure one reason she entered the Time Drift was that she felt comfortable enough With Ra's and the League in Nanda Parbat to embrace it as her true home.

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

After everything about Season Two this thread reminded me of, I find myself kind of glad they killed Sara at the start of Season Three.  It gave them time to really figure the character out and turn her into someone who wasn't at least partly shitty.

Season Two Sara gives me a little extra insight into Ra's al Ghul as well.  To him, he met this brilliant, brave amazing woman back in the 1960s and kept waiting for her to show back up.  So, he dutifully sends Nyssa to the vicinity of Lian Yui where she picks up Sara Lance and brings her back to the LoA.  Ra's at that point is likely pleased to be the one to help set her one the path to becoming the amazing person he knew before.  Except this isn't that Sara.  This is a Sara who is in the League, but not truly of it.  A Sara who is not a true match for his Nyssa but is somewhat using her.  A Sara he is likely happy to release, reluctant to welcome back and then fine with releasing again.  A Sara he would likely have killed, if not for the time travel business.  And then Sara is murdered.

At that point I think Ra's realizes a few things.  First, he knows that despite Sara being exposed to the Lazarus Pit he knows he couldn't have done it.  He knows the effect the Pit has on the dead (as opposed to the aged or wounded) and never be as cruel to Nyssa as to turn her beloved into a vile, animalistic thing like that which cannot, to his knowledge be restored.  So, Ra's knows he didn't do it.  He also knows that Nyssa would never do it either.  Finally he remembers about how hold Sara was in the 60s and that's not much older than she was now.  So, someone else must have taken the title of Ra's al Ghul and allowed the Lazarus Pit to resurrect Sara (presumably with a way to mostly heal her as well).  Which means that he, the current Ra's, had to die for that to happen.  It also means his child Nyssa is would also have to be dead, since she is his Heir.  Ra's is a person who could face his own death, but not that of his child, his beloved Heir.  So with Sara dead and the clock ticking, he begins to look around for a Plan B.

By this point Ra's knows of Oliver Queen through Nyssa and quite possibly through Talia as well.  Investigation of his past activities shows Oliver to be a man of unyielding purpose and ruthless determination, which is exactly what a new Ra's al Ghul should have.  So, fighting the always creeping madness of the Lazarus Pit he sets out to turn Oliver into his successor and someone with the mental tolerance to bring Sara back from the dead so she can meet her true destiny as has been preordained by her earlier time travel.  And he also protects Nyssa at the same time.  Unlike Malcolm perhaps, Ra's believes a father should die for his children, not the reverse.

I'm sorry, everyone is free to have there own opinion but the Ra's I saw on my screen didn't give a crap about Nyssa's life except for how it could serve his wants and he was fine and dandy with her being dead if she didn't bow to his wishes.  And while I think he found Sara an interesting puzzle, I think all he saw her as in the present, was the one that showed his daughter's weakness, aka the love she felt.  When he found out Sara was dead the only thing he felt was contempt for his daughter for still caring.  He wasn't even going to follow league tradition of avenging Sara's death until it was a handy excuse to terrorize Starling City.  

And there's no reason to think that Ra's assumed he'd have to be dead before Sara could have been dipped in the LP.  Again, he HATED that Nyssa had genuine feelings.  He'd have gleefully dipped Sara in the pit if it meant Nyssa would stop being weak.  He's never shown any sign of compassion or love for his daughter.  There simply is not any evidence from the show to support the kind and loving man that is only looking out for his loved ones actually existed or that he thought that Sara was using Nyssa.       

Quote

Quote

But it was Ra's himself who removed Nyssa as his heir

Sure, Ra's removed her.  He wanted her out of the line of fire.  My overall take on Ra's is that he was a guy with incomplete information fighting for his daughter's life against Time itself

 

Beyond not accepting the conclusions that you have reached, we know from Talia that Ra's was never going to let a woman become his heir.  That's why she left.  She knew it to be a lie that Ra's told and left to make her own way.  Nyssa being disinherited was about Ra's finding the heir he really wanted, not to save Nyssa.   He'd was fine with killing Nyssa if she did not follow his wishes.  And left her to die when she and Oliver turned on him.  Ra's saw her as nothing but a a place holder, kept under control by lies and promises he had no intent to keep and whom he begrudged even the meager happiness she'd found with Sara.    

[theOAfc]

11 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Except that before Oliver yelled at her, she wasn't admitting that she had a problem and she wasn't trying to get help. IIRC, Quentin had tried to get to her to attend an AA meeting, and she balked. The show had dragged out her addiction arc for 14 episodes with her being unrelentingly awful as everyone treated her with kid gloves. Maybe his approach wasn't the best if it were a real life situation, but as someone watching it on TV I wanted to throw Oliver a party for snapping her out of it. And I really wasn't the least bit interested in seeing him spend more time with her when there were far more interesting things going on NOT about Laurel.

Again this isnt about Laurel and how she is perceived by fans,or how you were fed up with her,this is about how Oliver looked based on what was presented on screen and how him showing apathy after that ugly fight and the way he talked to her at the dinner wasnt tough love but no love at all. My poin has nothing to do with whether or not Laurel needed to hear it. You simply dont treat like this someone that you deeply care about when they are in such a vulnerable state of mind. I get that fans who didnt like the dynamic(me included) didnt care at all but for those who loved the dynamic and claimed that these type of scenes were Oliver showing tough love to Laurel,my point is that there was no love at all with this type of attitude cause this is simply not how tough love works. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by theOAfc

[theOAfc]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I tend to think that by this point, she and Oliver have had some offscreen conversation saying their sorry's

And thats exactly my point in this whole convo. As a writer you dont write such a heavy scene between two main characters only to ignore the aftermath and leave viewers assume it was lowkey resolved off screen. You unintentionally make it look like Oliver doesnt care for her when the scene you wrote gave the opportunity to highlight exactly the opposite. But in the show there was no pay off to such a big scene and the dynamic was eventually tainted even more despite the actors doing some decent job in the scene because the later interactions of the characters during the rest of the season were meh and Oliver wasnt shown to struggle at all with their big fight. I get that it wasnt his first priority but the show had enough time to show him sleep with Sara so im sure there was time to show him a little bit concerned with how he talked to Laurel. The way this played out,it just seemed like he didnt care at all and was only just done with her which many fans believed and hated Laurel even more after that scene. I never liked Laurel but im just saying,the dynamic was tainted a lot and every time a nice opportunity was given to highlight their care or love for each other(the so called tough love some fans claim that existed)it all fell flat because after their ugly scenes there was no pay off at all and zero struggle shown. You think there was really tough love there? Honestly.

Edited June 8, 2017 by theOAfc