Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[leopardprint]

The problem with Arrow is that even when something is planned it's executed so poorly it's seems like it wasn't. 

Susan was a total waste of time and I'm still waiting to hear what MG's "cool payoff" for that storyline was because I'm pretty sure anyone else could have been kidnapped to trap Oliver. 

505 makes no sense in the context of 520 flashbacks, how do you get from "I'm not going anywhere." to "I don't care that you're seeing someone." and makes Felicity seem quite hurtful to Oliver except that he didn't care.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

It's like they are following a recipe but put the ingredients in the wrong order and quantities.

Edited May 21, 2017 by leopardprint

[Morrigan2575]

I think there was a plan for Susan that got abandoned and that's why she amounted to nothing

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think there was a plan for Susan that got abandoned and that's why she amounted to nothing

I would not be surprised at all. I wonder if we'll get the typical post-season we had plans, but there wasn't time/the actor wasn't available/maybe next season comments. 

[statsgirl]

It's possible that there was a plan for Susan that got dropped but WM was still pushing "real feelings" between Panty Moth and Oliver after 5.09 when they had already broken 5x18 so WM knew that there was going to be nothing between them.

I think the problem is that MG only counts the importance of the action plots when he's looking at the show. He likes relationships as a background factor and I think he may appreciate that Olicity has contributed to the longevity of the show but he's not really interested in it. WM is better but she often sees things differently than what's on the screen.  It's not until Greg Berlanti steps in that things get righted, and with 11 shows on the air right now plus developing more, he's not going to step in for a 6 year old show.

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

And the Temps ended up being nothing but stalls. All that talk about real feelings and real relationships amounted to nothing.

Certainly this year's Temps are.  Sara also to some extent but she was also to set up the Canary path.  Ray was the one they put the most effort into but that's because they wanted him for a spin-off.  Unfortunately the work was all about Ray rather than about Felicity.

Comparing Ray to Oliver is like comparing apples to pineapples. In season 3 Oliver and Felicity had known each other for more than two years with all the feelings and baggage that came with that, while Felicity was just getting to know Ray.   It's true that Ray has few boundaries, that's Ray.  I don't blame him for that any more than I blame my friend who has ADHD for switching topics out of the blue.  If it really bothered Felicity, she'd say something and put a stop to it as she did with the pineapple farts on his equipment.

The only reason Felicity slept with Ray in 3x15 was because Oliver had shut her out yet again.  It was IMO the healthy choice at the time to give up on Oliver.

10 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Maybe the reason Felicity has hurt more with Oliver then Ray was because she only cared like 300,000,000 times more about Oliver then she ever did about Ray and was like 300,000,000 times more invested in her relationship with Oliver then she was ever with Ray who she only ever  went to as a response to Oliver.

But like I said. I don't care. Oliver and Felicity are fleshed out adult relationship and not a two dimensional one sided relationship where one is the centre of the universe the other revolves around.

I think that if it weren't for how strong Felicity is, it would be a relationship where Oliver is the sun and Felicity only revolves around him.

It is precisely because Felicity cares so much about Oliver that he has the power to hurt her like no one else and yet he still keeps doing it.  I stop myself from thinking about season 3 because if I did, I wouldn't want Oliver with Felicity because of how he Oliver behaved towards her then.  He opened the season giving her hope that they could have a relationship but even before they order, he's closed the door.  Unilaterally, taking away her autonomy and power in the relationship.  But that's just the start.  One of the worst things he did to her was shutting her out in 3x12 when he got back.  He's told her twice that he loved her, she went through the despair of losing him, and just when she's overjoyed to get him back and thinks that she can have the kind of relationship with him she's dreamed of, he blocks them again.  No discussion, no chance for her to have any voice in their relationship.  (He did it again in 3x15 which is why she ended up in a relationship with Ray.)  However, letting her think that she was going to die and going off to marry Nyssa after she risked her life to get him out of the LoA comes a close second.  Every one of Oliver's friends must have felt betrayed at the end of 3x22 but for Felicity, it must have been a total stab to the heart.

And then he does it again in s4. Not the lie about William because that's a stupid plot point, but making the decision to send William away on his own after Felicity has told him that she wants a partnership where they make decisions together. And again, after she tells him she needs time away from him, he does the exact opposite with the fake wedding and pushes her even harder.  You can argue that he loves her soooo much but if he did, then he would have done what she asked.

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

@statsgirl do you ship Raylicity or do you think of it when you get the grumps with Oliver?

I think that if Oliver never got his head out of his ass, or if he died, Felicity could have had a decent life with Ray.  They wouldn't be soulmates but few people are lucky enough to be able to be with their soulmate.  (I know of only four couples who were.)

[leopardprint]

My frustration wth Oliver and Felicity is mostly an unfixable one because it's part of the bones (?)of the show. Oliver is a self-sacrificing idiot and since his go-to move is to sacrifice himself for the City, Thea, William...etc., Felicity's feelings and happiness end up as collateral damage. I don't think he takes her into consideration when he does all that and he gets a pass for being a noble idiot so it appears like she's not a priority to him. I'm not sure if there is a way to really fix that though since that's who he is and she accepts it (haven't decided if she's right to or not).

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

If it really bothered Felicity, she'd say something and put a stop to it as she did with the pineapple farts on his equipment.

Autocorrect, the gift that keeps on giving. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

Hee.  I'm afraid that that's all me since I'm on my laptop.  Is autocorrect contagious?

10 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

 I don't think he takes her into consideration when he does all that and he gets a pass for being a noble idiot so it seems like she's not a priority to him.. I'm not sure if there is a way to really fix that thought since that's who he is and she accepts it (haven't decided if she's right to or not).

I think you've made a good point and it's made me realize why I dislike this so much.  I spent years in a relationship where I was considered supporting cast and if I wanted a say in family decisions, I had to argue and prove why I should have that right.

It's not an unfixable condition and I have hope that the writers will finally allow Oliver to become aware that he's not a sole decision-maker any more because I don't think I can take another season of lip service to Felicity being his partner while he continues to make unilateral conditions that hurt her.

[leopardprint]

In S3, it was particularly egregious because there was really no good reason why Oliver had to sacrifice himself for Merlyn other than for his manpain. I think Thea would have been exponentially more upset at losing her brother than Merlyn. I don't think that's something she would have gotten over especially with how her mother died. 

Yeah, it's very frustrating when he puts his own selflessness above their agency. Which is really selfish not selfless, like dude maybe you should ask Thea what she thought about that instead of running off to a sword fight. 

 

12 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Plus, I don't think it's bad to have relationships as a background factor, since that was basically what made 401-407 good for Olicity in the first place (Olicity as a background with it coming to the front when relevant).

I think people don't think Olicity was is the background for 401-406 which some liked and some didn't. I actually really wish they had stuck with the whole "team within a team" thing, though now I guess it's Team (Olicity, Delicity, Doliver) w/in a Team (OTA) within a Team (TA). I agree with you that the Olicity in 401-406 worked really well it was just the stupid BMD that ruined it and yet that's what they have decided to revive...(detour to the bitterness thread) 

ETA: Sorry for the post being out of order.

Edited May 21, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think the problem is that MG only counts the importance of the action plots when he's looking at the show. He likes relationships as a background factor and I think he may appreciate that Olicity has contributed to the longevity of the show but he's not really interested in it.

I'd think if he wasn't interested in it, he wouldn't have been one of the people who writes episodes that feature highlighted moments in their relationship/feelings of one another (114, 207, 223, 301, 310, 323, 401) and wouldn't constantly defend their choice for writing the relationship on tumblr. Yeah, I get that a bunch of the episodes are finales/premieres and that couldn't be helped, but he's actively written towards it and pushed for/defend the relationship once it comes up in the storyline. I just think he/the writers get bothered by being asked about Olicity when they are focusing on something else at the moment (like if a musician was asked to play all of their old hits instead of asking about the new stuff, whether the new stuff is good or not), even though they are the ones who left the Olicity storyline open-ended in the first place so there's less sympathy for them in that case.

Plus, I don't think it's bad to have relationships as a background factor, since that was basically what made 401-407 good for Olicity in the first place (Olicity as a background with it coming to the front when relevant).

[Hiveminder]

It would actually be perfect if the relationships were in the background, but if you want the relationship to be in the background you can't have them get engaged only at the same time as you introduce an illegitimate child for the express purpose of breaking up your main couple in the most contrived and illogical way possible and then keep that couple apart for more than a season while spending most of that time having them seemingly ignore the fact that they were ever more than co-workers without giving the audience an explanation for that behavior for months. The writers put Olicity front and center, and then they dive bombed that relationship and ended season four with Olicity in an undefined place. Of course they got questions about Olicity. They practically forced people to ask them about Olicity. 

[tv echo]

I wonder if we'll ever find out how Felicity met Billy Malone. I realize it's now an irrelevant point, but I'm still curious.  I thought we'd find out in 520, but... no. Not even a throwaway line.

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

It would actually be perfect if the relationships were in the background, but if you want the relationship to be in the background you can't have them get engaged only at the same time as you introduce an illegitimate child for the express purpose of breaking up your main couple in the most contrived and illogical way possible and then keep that couple apart for more than a season while spending most of that time having them seemingly ignore the fact that they were ever more than co-workers without giving the audience an explanation for that behavior for months. The writers put Olicity front and center, and then they dive bombed that relationship and ended season four with Olicity in an undefined place. Of course they got questions about Olicity. They practically forced people to ask them about Olicity. 

Oh, I basically agree with that. They went full throttle and then pulled all the way back, so people rightfully got confused/irritated. That's why I don't feel as much sympathy for them getting questions about Olicity through Comic Con and throughout the whole season since they were the ones who left it open-ended enough to make a reunion theoretically possible but too much so that it was too unclear about where they stood exactly relationship-wise. I just understand to an extent that if they knew when/how Olicity would get back together, that people asking about it when it's not supposed to come up yet while they are trying to push other plots could get annoying for them. The main issue here is that they unknowingly created their own problem.

46 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I think people don't think Olicity was is the background for 401-406 which some liked and some didn't.

Which people? Honestly curious, since most of the time I just saw people describe their relationship as a background one that most people (even those who didn't like Olicity) appreciated because it was in the background.

[TwistedandBored]

6 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I wonder if we'll ever find out how Felicity met Billy Malone. I realize it's now an irrelevant point, but I'm still curious.  I thought we'd find out in 520, but... no. Not even a throwaway line.

Who is this Billy you speak of?

But seriously, I don't want to see that. I will be even more happy if I don't ever hear his or Pope's character name again. 

[leopardprint]

18 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I wonder if we'll ever find out how Felicity met Billy Malone. I realize it's now an irrelevant point, but I'm still curious.  I thought we'd find out in 520, but... no. Not even a throwaway line

Me too! I think 520 really raised more questions than answered them. 

I wish she had become a workaholic creating Smoak Tech if she had needed a distraction from Oliver's irresistible hearteyes. Billy being Felicity's boyfriend only served Oliver dating Susan which went nowheresville. Very baffling for a show that always complains about running out of time.

11 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Which people? Honestly curious, since most of the time I just saw people describe their relationship as a background one that most people (even those who didn't like Olicity) appreciated because it was in the background.

Ok, my admittedly tenuous understanding is that some more comics oriented people blame the ratings slide on Olicity generally not the BMD and that they blame Oliver's declining fight ability on Olicity (which doesn't make sense but whatever) and just complained about them in general. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by leopardprint

[LeighAn]

Just now, leopardprint said:

 

Ok, my admittedly tenuous understanding is that some more comics oriented people blame the ratings slide on Olicity generally not the BMD and that they blame Oliver's declining fight ability on Olicity (which doesn't make sense but whatever) and just complained about them in general. 

And why would you care about those people and their opinions unless you shared them? Fans take credit for ratings declining or increasing all the time for one story point or another but at the end of the day ratings don't tell the story of why people watch or not just how many are. I don't get why people even care TBH maybe I'm selfish but my own enjoyment of the show matters more to me then whether other people- especially ones who's interest differ so much from my own- enjoy it *shrug*

The show just works better and is far more entertaining with Olicity then without for me.

[way2interested]

Just now, leopardprint said:

Ok, my admittedly tenuous understanding is that some more comics oriented people blame the ratings slide on Olicity generally not the BMD and that they blame Oliver's declining fight ability on Olicity (which doesn't make sense but whatever) and just complained about them in general. 

Even if that's so, that's 4b, I was referring to 4a, which is why I said 401-407, where even people who didn't like Olicity switched their tune because there was no drama between them (hence why 406 was a bit messy because issues did come up between them) and they were kept in the background.

[statsgirl]

I think when the show doesn't deliberately try to create Olicity drama(401 - 407), most viewers are fine with it, even a number of comic book stans. Unfortunately MG's evil genius just can't help messing with the Olicity.

Poor Tyler Ritter. The only point to Billy was to have some that Oliver would feel guilty killing without sacrificing a regular, and to give Oliver a real to sleep with other women in their s5 "back to basics" mantra.  But good for Ritter for trying to create a real character and not messing with Olicity fans the way Carly Pope did.

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

In S3, it was particularly egregious because there was really no good reason why Oliver had to sacrifice himself for Merlyn other than for his manpain. I think Thea would have been exponentially more upset at losing her brother than Merlyn. I don't think that's something she would have gotten over especially with how her mother died. 

Yeah, it's very frustrating when he puts his own selflessness above their agency. Which is really selfish not selfless, like dude maybe you should ask Thea what she thought about that instead of running off to a sword fight.

It was also taking away Thea's agency. She was so upset at what Malcolm had forced her to do, she wanted him punished and since she couldn't do it herself, she gave him up to the LoA.  Whether she was right or not, it was not Oliver's place to sacrifice himself to Ra's because he thought she would later regret what she had done.  And absolutely losing Oliver, the only member of her growing-up family who was left, would have hurt her far worse than losing Malcolm.

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I'd think if he wasn't interested in it, he wouldn't have been one of the people who writes episodes that feature highlighted moments in their relationship/feelings of one another (114, 207, 223, 301, 310, 323, 401) and wouldn't constantly defend their choice for writing the relationship on tumblr.

I think he sees Olicity as a grace note to the action elements of the show rather than a theme in itself that he wants to explore.

But yeah, as several people have said, if he didn't want so many questions about Olicity, he shouldn't have screwed up 4B so much.

[Hiveminder]

53 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Oh, I basically agree with that. They went full throttle and then pulled all the way back, so people rightfully got confused/irritated. That's why I don't feel as much sympathy for them getting questions about Olicity through Comic Con and throughout the whole season since they were the ones who left it open-ended enough to make a reunion theoretically possible but too much so that it was too unclear about where they stood exactly relationship-wise. I just understand to an extent that if they knew when/how Olicity would get back together, that people asking about it when it's not supposed to come up yet while they are trying to push other plots could get annoying for them. The main issue here is that they unknowingly created their own problem.

Which people? Honestly curious, since most of the time I just saw people describe their relationship as a background one that most people (even those who didn't like Olicity) appreciated because it was in the background.

Well, you're a better person than me for understanding even a little why they were upset to get all the Olicity questions. I mean, I can logically comprehend where they were coming from, but that's a different kind of understanding. I have no sympathy for them. It should have been obvious to any reasonably intelligent person that they would get these questions if they went the route they ended up going. So if you know someone is going to ask questions if you do this thing, and then you do this thing, how can you be upset when what you knew would happen happens? Suck it up, precious, and answer people's questions. Say you don't want to spoil something if you need to, I don't care. Just be gracious to the people who love your characters, watch your show, and pay good money to come meet you and ask you questions, even if they're not asking you about the parts of the show you want to talk about. 

[LeighAn]

I feel like some of this conversation seems better suited to the bitterness thread.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, leopardprint said:

The problem with Arrow is that even when something is planned it's executed so poorly it's seems like it wasn't. 

Susan was a total waste of time and I'm still waiting to hear what MG's "cool payoff" for that storyline was because I'm pretty sure anyone else could have been kidnapped to trap Oliver. 

505 makes no sense in the context of 520 flashbacks, how do you get from "I'm not going anywhere." to "I don't care that you're seeing someone." and makes Felicity seem quite hurtful to Oliver except that he didn't care.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

It's like they are following a recipe but put the ingredients in the wrong order and quantities.

Yeah, it now seems pretty clear to me that they didn't write the two things to actually connect.  505 was about setting up the upcoming Susan stuff, so we get "I don't care that you are seeing someone" and Felicity not keeping the door open.  

But now that all that is out of the way, (Billy and Susan are no longer a factor) they are putting lines in that will serve the story line going forward from 520 on, and are no longer really concerned about what came before even if explaining how Olicity got to where they were in 501 was the pitch line.  Now we get stuff about Felicity keeping the door open for them to hash out their problems, and Oliver promising basically he'd wait as long as she needed.  That's for the audience NOW and the writers/show runners don't deeply care that it seems to contradict the past.

 I'm trying to not care so much either since I want what they currently are selling.  

2 hours ago, leopardprint said:

 

 

I think people don't think Olicity was is the background for 401-406 which some liked and some didn't. I actually really wish they had stuck with the whole "team within a team" thing, though now I guess it's Team (Olicity, Delicity, Doliver) w/in a Team (OTA) within a Team (TA). I agree with you that the Olicity in 401-406 worked really well it was just the stupid BMD that ruined it and yet that's what they have decided to revive...(detour to the bitterness thread) 

ETA: Sorry for the post being out of order.

 

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

Which people? Honestly curious, since most of the time I just saw people describe their relationship as a background one that most people (even those who didn't like Olicity) appreciated because it was in the background.

 

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Ok, my admittedly tenuous understanding is that some more comics oriented people blame the ratings slide on Olicity generally not the BMD and that they blame Oliver's declining fight ability on Olicity (which doesn't make sense but whatever) and just complained about them in general. 

Yeah, a funny thing happened.  When the episodes were happening (401-407) with the exception of 406 which was Olicity centric, people that didn't like Olicity were commenting that they were good with how the relationship was being handled.  Then 408 happened and even though most of the rest of the episodes had Olicity pretty much still in the background, I kept hearing that they weren't in the background anymore since the BMD thing was always a pall over everything.  

And then by the time they broke up, I was hearing the same people that praised 401-407, now claiming that those same episodes were riddled with Olicity drama.  And then when the ratings dropped they started saying that people didn't leave because of the BMD, but because Olicity had existed for two seasons and people were finally sick of it to the point of walking (which no one could ever explain to me why it made sense to quit right when the thing supposedly making them give up had ended)

Pretty much a certain subset blamed anything they got that they didn't like on Olicity, and anything that they didn't get on Olicity and were fine with a rewrite of their own past opinions and provable statements to support their theories.  

It's hilarious how often I still encounter complaints about Felicity not wanting to Oliver to put on the mask when season four showed literally the opposite of that.  

And it's not so much that I care what people who radically disagree with me think, but I like knowing what they think.  Maybe it's a know thy enemy type thing.  Maybe it's just my need to understand how people could have such an opposite opinion.  I like details.  

Edited May 21, 2017 by BkWurm1

[way2interested]

Just now, Hiveminder said:

It should have been obvious to any reasonably intelligent person that they would get these questions if they went the route they ended up going.

Fun fact is that TV writers are actually notoriously secluded in their own world, and it's actually up to the network/middlemen to make sure that plots/jokes/execution makes sense (i.e. A joke that a sitcom writer might write at 3 in the morning when a draft is due may be hilarious to the writers' room, but not funny to normal people, so the network has to settle that issue). To them, it might have been reasonable to believe that people would just accept that Olicity were up in the air while to the public it wasn't. That's all I see as what happened.

[statsgirl]

Patrick Huard, when he was doing interviews for Bon Cop, Bad Cop2, said that they tested every joke for the movie before they put it in because what seems very funny to a writer might not be funny to the audience and they wanted to make sure everything worked for the movie. (It does, and I really recommend it.  It also has the perfect anti-Felicity IT girl.)

25 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that they didn't write the two things to actually connect.  505 as about setting up the upcoming Susan stuff so we get "I don't care that you are seeing someone" and Felicity not keeping the door open.  But now that all that is out of the way, they are putting lines in that will serve the storyline going forward from 520 on, no longer really concerned about what came before even if explaining how Olicity got to where they were in 501 was the pitch line.  Stuff about Felicity keeping the door open for them to hash out their problems and Oliver promising basically he'd wait as long as she needed, that's for the audience NOW and they don't deeply care that it's seems to contradict the past.  I'm trying to not care so much either since I want what they currently are selling. 

For all that MG keeps saying that they write to the end of the season, it's pretty clear that in terms of anything other than the Big Bad, they don't.  They write from story beat to story beat,clearing up their messes along the way.

54 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, a funny thing happened.  When the episodes were happening (401-407) with the exception of 406 which was Olicity centric, people that didn't like Olicity were commenting that they were good with how the relationship was being handled.  Then 408 happened and even though most of the rest of the episodes had Olicity pretty much still in the background, I kept hearing that they weren't in the background anymore since the BMD thing was always a pall over everything. 

The BMD drama ended up casting a pall over both sides, those who liked Olicity and those who didn't.  Since 408 it was a ticking time bomb, and not in the "isn't it great to anticipate" way the EPs probably thought it would be.

What I found most interesting is that it highlighted a split in the fandom between those who thought that Felicity should have been told and those who thought it was none of her business.  It could be used as a projective test -- before you marry this person, show him/her the s4 episodes and find out his/her opinion on it and decide if you really want to stay with this person.

[Hiveminder]

39 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

What I found most interesting is that it highlighted a split in the fandom between those who thought that Felicity should have been told and those who thought it was none of her business.  It could be used as a projective test -- before you marry this person, show him/her the s4 episodes and find out his/her opinion on it and decide if you really want to stay with this person.

Not to encourage anyone to make major life decisions based on Arrow, but that idea has a lot of merit. No way would I marry someone who didn't think Felicity should have been told. At least, not unless I was ok with the possibility of having a secret child sprung on me in the future. 

[Trini]

Random question: Has the word "Olicity" ever been used on the show?

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

Random question: Has the word "Olicity" ever been used on the show?

Yes. In 4x16 by the media when they talked about Cupid crashing their wedding and getting apprehended. Why?

[way2interested]

Just now, Trini said:

Random question: Has the word "Olicity" ever been used on the show?

[Trini]

Ah, thanks!

[Mellowyellow]

Watching old Olicity clips on and off while I am trying to pull off a big catering feat and it occurred to me the full on Oliver heart eyes didn't happen until S3.

In S1 and S2 sometimes he looked like he wanted to maul her or kiss her but in S3 the beloved heart eyes really took off. 

Oliver was soooo young back then! 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Watching old Olicity clips on and off while I am trying to pull off a big catering feat and it occurred to me the full on Oliver heart eyes didn't happen until S3.

In S1 and S2 sometimes he looked like he wanted to maul her or kiss her but in S3 the beloved heart eyes really took off. 

Oliver was soooo young back then! 

My theory, he was in denial to some degree until season three, then there was no hiding it even if he wasn't allowing himself to have it.  

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

My theory, he was in denial to some degree until season three, then there was no hiding it even if he wasn't allowing himself to have it.  

Strangely enough he often looked like he wanted to maul her though! The mauling look was replaced by heart eyes in S3.

I agree with your theory and will add that maybe all that suppressing caused him a bit of stress in S1 and S2!

Despite the Lauriver shenanigans I thought there was a fair bit of dodgy Olicity stuff going on in S1. 

[leopardprint]

There were megawatt hearteyes in that scene in the secret bunker after Moira's funeral at the end of S2. That's the earliest I can recall being like "those eyes have hearts in them". 

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, leopardprint said:

There were megawatt hearteyes in that scene in the secret bunker after Moira's funeral at the end of S2. That's the earliest I can recall being like "those eyes have hearts in them". 

I know what you're talking about! To me they weren't fully doting heart eyes but more "I really really badly want to kiss you" face/eyes. He looked like he was fixated on kissing her and couldn't concentrate on what she was saying in that scene.

He looks a bit dopier when he's got the heart eyes. 

It is SUCH A GOOD SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BkWurm1]

Maybe part of his denial was that Felicity could want to be with him in any way that was more than just physical or as a partner?  So when he realized she did share his feelings, he no longer could keep the wonder and adoration off his face.  

Also, maybe part of it was Oliver working through some of his PTSD and he needed the time to be able to really express the love he was feeling.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

50 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

My theory, he was in denial to some degree until season three, then there was no hiding it even if he wasn't allowing himself to have it.  

Excuuuuuse me?? He may not have had ??shooting out of his eyes, but boy was already in deep and knew it, a third? Halfway? Into season two. The Russia episode-where OTA went to save Lyla, and that twat, Isobel insisted on accompanying them. And where he proceeded to fuck screw her. And when Felicity asked "why her?" Oliver had his back to her, but I we saw his face: he closed his eyes and took a long, deep measuring breath before he turned around to answer. Then there was the way he looked at her in the finale.

Edited May 27, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

There were megawatt hearteyes in that scene in the secret bunker after Moira's funeral at the end of S2. That's the earliest I can recall being like "those eyes have hearts in them". 

 

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I know what you're talking about! To me they weren't fully doting heart eyes but more "I really really badly want to kiss you" face/eyes. He looked like he was fixated on kissing her and couldn't concentrate on what she was saying in that scene.

He looks a bit dopier when he's got the heart eyes. 

It is SUCH A GOOD SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in between.  I think he didn't have quite the level of heart eyes he achieved later but he looked at her with such overwhelming longing.   He wanted to kiss her but it was more than just him wanting to jump her, he wanted to devour her and wallow in something so dear to him, but he was holding back since he planned on handing himself over to Slade.  

[Mellowyellow]

@BkWurm1 I got the warm and fuzzies reading your post!

Guys we are going to need to start a support group if this ends in anything less than Happily Ever After when the series ends! 

On that note! Off to ice my cake! 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Excuuuuuse me?? He may not have had ??shooting out of his eyes, but boy was already in deep and knew it, a third? Halfway? Into season two. The Russia episode-where OTA went to save Lyla, and that twat. Isobel insisted on accompanying them. And where he proceeded to fuck screw her. And when Felicity asked "why her?" Oliver had his back to her, but I we saw his face: he closed his eyes and took a long, deep measuring breath before he turned around to answer. Then there was the way he looked at her in the finale.

Denial that it could happen between them, not that he wanted her and had deep feelings.  But as long as it was unthinkable, he was able to keep how much he was feeling off his face,  IMO.    

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Denial that it could happen between them, not that he wanted her and had deep feelings.  But as long as it was unthinkable, he was able to keep how much he was feeling off his face,  IMO.    

Without emojis, I can't tell if you're amused, or looking down your nose via cyber ?, with a pitying look on yer face!?? Your response sounds so...SERIOUS!??

[BkWurm1]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

@BkWurm1 I got the warm and fuzzies reading your post!

Guys we are going to need to start a support group if this ends in anything less than Happily Ever After when the series ends! 

On that note! Off to ice my cake! 

I was already deeply traumatized by what happened on Smallville and in the end found a deep comfort in that this is fiction.  If the worst ever came, I'm already ready to supplant their version of a made up story with what REALLY should have happened.  Lol.  

[statsgirl]

In the secret bunker I saw longing and I also saw pain that Felicity and this was everything he wanted and would want but what he couldn't have.

That stupidity abated a little in 3x01 but by the end of the episode, it was there again until 3x23.

[leopardprint]

20 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

i know what you're talking about! To me they weren't fully doting heart eyes but more "I really really badly want to kiss you" face/eyes. He looked like he was fixated on kissing her and couldn't concentrate on what she was saying in that scene.

He looks a bit dopier when he's got the heart eyes. 

It is SUCH A GOOD SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't devoted myself as extensively to the study of cardioptics but what I am saying is that those were hearteyes, bittersweet yes, but hearteyes. Poor guy really needed a hug then. 

ETA: Wowie! Did not realize the topic of ?was so controversial! Hahaha, amazing. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Without emojis, I can't tell if you're amused, or looking down your nose via cyber ?, with a pitying look on yer face!?? Your response sounds so...SERIOUS!??

Rarely ever very serious. Lol.  And never looking down my nose at you.  Basically I was just clarifying what I meant by denial.  Cause I agree, Oliver knew pretty early on that Felicity was way more than just someone he worked with.  The initial connection was always there even if he couldn't or wasn't ready to think about her in more complex terms. 

And also remember I am pulling these very deep thoughts out of thin air.   Don't mean for them to sound like the be all or end all.  :)  But I suppose I do take the discussion of what the character might have been feeling seriously.  Love getting inside their heads (or trying to)

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Rarely ever very serious. Lol.  And never looking down my nose at you.  Basically I was just clarifying what I meant by denial.  Cause I agree, Oliver knew pretty early on that Felicity was way more than just someone she worked with.  The initial connection was always there even if he couldn't or wasn't ready to think about her in more complex terms. 

And also remember I am pulling these very deep thought out of thin air.  Don't mean for them to sound like the be all or end all.  :) 

Errrm, I think you mean, he worked with, right??

Phew! Like I said, it's difficult to discern tone sometimes!

Edited May 27, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[leopardprint]

Actually I think that's a good interpretation of that particular scene in 221, @statsgirl,  because he had probably already decided to turn himself over to Slade thereby completely giving up on any future with Felicity. 

So ?+ ?+?

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

Errrm, I think you mean, he worked with, right?

The typing fingers don't always listen to the brain's intent, lol.  

[BkWurm1]

19 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

ETA: Wowie! Did not realize the topic of ?was so controversial! Hahaha, amazing.

Not so much controversial but a scene that can be appreciated on lots of different levels and comes with IMO layers,  to which I will happily analyze and unpack again and again.  It's a great moment that deserves repeated study.  Oh, the feels!  

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

Oh I saw hearteyes from Oliver in s1 & s2 and heart smiles & heart hands

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by catrox14

[leopardprint]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I saw hearteyes from Oliver in s1 & s2 and heart smiles & heart hands

They don't even need EYES to hearteyes! That's how strong their game is! 

[BkWurm1]

That first gif is absolutely heart eyes, lol.  Do you know when it is from?  

The other ones, I see emotion and a lot going on, but not clear cut heart eyes by my standards.  (Which of course are only mine, I'm not  trying to argue or denying anyone else the right to call them heart eyes)

The second one from the bottom, was that Felicity in the short, gold dress?  I really enjoy the sudden spark of lust on his face.  

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

That first gif is absolutely heart eyes, lol.  Do you know when it is from

 

I think the "actually I'm Jewish" scene?

[KenyaJ]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That first gif is absolutely heart eyes, lol.  Do you know when it is from?

It's from 109, when Oliver asks Felicity for help tacking down the Arrows Malcolm (unbeknownst to him, at the time) was using. That was the "You're remarkable," "Thank you for remarking on it" scene. I loved that so much!

ETA: And yes, that was when Felicity told him she was Jewish.

Edited May 27, 2017 by KenyaJ