Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Proteus]

I knew my opinions on Felicity wouldn't be popular on this board which is why I try to never speak about the character here. But they are my opinions. I was asked why I stopped liking her and I answered.

[ladylaw99]

I wasn't going to respond because everyone watches the show differently but, I can't believe anyone could not see how bad Oliver handled this situation.  He was going to marry Felicity knowing he had a huge secret - a kid.  That is something you must let your life partner know.  This is about trust and honesty. You can't be with someone for the rest of your life if they are a liar and I'm not talking about little white lies. There are deal breakers and lying about a kid while other people know is one of them. I didn't like the way the writers handle this BMD, I hate this story with a thousand suns, but Felicity had every right to leave him. I was so disappointed  in Diggle and Thea because it wasn't so long ago that they were mad and not talking to Oliver because of his lies and trust issues. Why is Felicity  any different? Why was she not allowed to be mad? Why is she hated for it ( and I am not taking about her physically walking out because that was terrible and I swear was made to make Felicity look bad -so dumb) I have been with my husband longer than half my life so I know what it takes to be in a long relationship, you pick your battles but there is no way my husband or me could be life partners if we could not trust, rely and be honest with eachother. My husband has never watched an ep of Arrow except for 4 x 15 and he was disgusted with Oliver and couldn't understand how you could keep that secret from someone you love -it's a kid not a dog you can give away if you don't get along with it. He has never watched another ep since - he thinks Oliver is the worst.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, Proteus said:

I knew my opinions on Felicity wouldn't be popular on this board which is why I try to never speak about the character here. But they are my opinions. I was asked why I stopped liking her and I answered.

I think you should if you want to! haha I ADORE Ray and everyone hates him but I'm going to keep banging my "I love Ray" drum because Ray is totally adorable and I  loveeeeeeeee him!!!!!

[Midnight Lullaby]

They wanted to justify Oliver so badly they had Thea, someone who consistently showed to hate lies, use the same words MG used in his interview where he justified Oliver.

Felicity wasn't even that mad. Actually I found that part a bit unrealistic. I would have at least yelled. I would have also dumped him and avoided being in the same room with him for the foreseeable future. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[LeighAn]

I'd add that in show Felicity DIDNT breakup with Oliver because he had a kid or because he lied. She was willing to forgive him for that. 

It was when he chose to send William away with out consulting her that became the straw that broke the camels back and she chose to break up with him. Her speeches in 4x15 and 4x16 were about her being upset and hurt by his lack of respect for her in terms of including her or at least consulting her about decisions about their life. She could tolerate and accept Olivers unilateral decision making and lone wolf behaviour in a team arrow environment but she was concerned he'd applied that to how he conducted himself in his relationship with her and she didn't see that as being sustainable.

Thats why she broke up with him, because she considered marriage a partnership and inclusive and she felt Olivers keeping William a secret and then not including her in what was going on with William was an indication that Oliver wasn't ready for a true partnership and inclusive marriage. 

Thats the reason the show gave for the breakup rightly or wrongly and that's what they seem to be the behaviour they are working on correcting in Oliver this season.

[AyChihuahua]

25 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I don't think there's logic in this and you can't logically convince someone otherwise. 

Certain people have views on how "a good woman" is supposed to behave and as gross as that is to us it's their view. Just like they probably think we are a bunch of aggressive shrews for thinking Felicity should burn Oliver’s stuff on his lawn and shave off his eyebrows for the BMD drama (well ok only I think she should have done that). 

I don't understand how people can blame Felicity but I accept that there's a class of people who apparently do hate her for reasons! 

It's not a feminist thing to me (although I am 100% a feminist); it's a human thing. If the situation had been exactly reversed I would have been raging pissed at Felicity. IT IS NOT OKAY TO MARRY SOMEONE WITHOUT TELLING THAT PERSON YOU HAVE AN ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD. NONE of the dudes defending Oliver in this situation would be okay if their fiancee did the exact same thing to them. Not one single one of them would be okay being tied to a kid, including financially, that they weren't even allowed to know EXISTS. 

[Proteus]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

I think you might be mixing Proteus up with someone else.  Most of the time I've only really seen him/her talk about Thea.  

Thank you. 

Thea is the only reason I still watch Arrow and the only character I even really comment about.

Im way more invested in Flash and Legends.

[Midnight Lullaby]

For me is that I wouldn't marry someone then wonder if when he tells me he is going out of town for work he is visiting his other secret family he hasn't told me about. Love is great and all but I would be miserable. Life is hard enough because of things you can't choose so I wouldn't choose something I'm not 100% sure about. If you realize you and your partner have different ideas of the kind of marriage you want or can offer at the moment it's better to take a step back. It would hurt for sure but it would hurt so much more if you go through with it and it ends because you never dealt with your issues in the first place.

[EmilyBettFan]

21 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Excuse me? Exactly what are you talking about? I only come here to put Felicity down? When have I done that? I NEVER comment about Felicity on this website. Check my posts. This is the first time I have ever voiced my opinion on the character and that was because someone asked me why I felt the way I did.  It makes no sense to get so offended just because someone doesn't like your favorite character. 

Well I apologize for that as I mixed you up with someone else.

[Proteus]

1 minute ago, EmilyBettFan said:

Well I apologize for that as I mixed you up with someone else.

Okay.

[statsgirl]

32 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I knew my opinions on Felicity wouldn't be popular on this board which is why I try to never speak about the character here. But they are my opinions. I was asked why I stopped liking her and I answered.

That's for being willing to come out and given an unpopular opinion.  I appreciate that, because I think it's very important to know how other people perceive things.

16 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

It was when he chose to send William away with out consulting her that became the straw that broke the camels back and she chose to break up with him. Her speeches in 4x15 and 4x16 were about her being upset and hurt by his lack of respect for her in terms of including her or at least consulting her about decisions about their life. She could tolerate and accept Olivers unilateral decision making and lone wolf behaviour in a team arrow environment but she was concerned he'd applied that to how he conducted himself in his relationship with her and she didn't see that as being sustainable.

This is such a no-brainer to me in terms of the writing.  Felicity clearly stated that she wanted to be a full partner, and when Oliver didn't do it by lying to her about William, and didn't do it again when he sent William away without talking to her about it, of course she had to leave.

For me, it's not the lie but him knowing what she wants in a partner and being completely unwilling to do it. That, more than infidelity, is a deal-breaker to me.

[EmilyBettFan]

 Not only that but he confided in Vixen the very first episode she was in and that everyone just met to. It just makes no sense not to tell Felicity. His proclaimed partner.

Edited February 21, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

For me is that I wouldn't marry someone then wonder if when he tells me he is going out of town for work he is visiting his other secret family he hasn't told me about. Love is great and all but I would be miserable. Life is hard enough because of things you can't choose so I wouldn't choose something I'm not 100% sure about. If you realize you and your partner have different ideas of the kind of marriage you want or can offer at the moment it's better to take a step back. It would hurt for sure but it would hurt so much more if you go through with it and it ends because you never dealt with your issues in the first place.

I think this essentially is the reasoning the writers built in to the break up. That Felicity felt Oliver had different ideas or a lack of understanding over what she considered marriage to be about.

She accepted that Oliver spent five years with only himself to look out for and having to make unilateral moves to survive his Island but feared that he would never leave that part of himself behind or change now that he's got a family, a team and a fiancée who loves him and are here to help him. 

Which as much as I hate the newbies I can see how that covulutingly ties into course correcting Olivers go it alone attitude in terms of letting others in and opening up to others and why having Felicity lone wolf it with her dark arch is a convuluted way for her to better understand Oliver. 

Its stupidly written however, but their break up was stupid and done for stall purposes in the first place so cest la vie.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I've just never really liked how Felicity has treated Oliver since they started pursuing a relationship. I came away wondering if she really loved him or just the idea of him since she always had a problem with anything he did.

I won't ask you for examples.  But for me, I saw it the opposite way, that Diggle was allowed to get mad at Oliver a number of times, the longest being from 3x21 to 4x03, Thea was allowed to get angry enough at him that she left with Malcolm in s2 and lied to Oliver about connecting with Malcolm until almost 3x08, and Laurel was mad at him for most of four seasons but the show never let Felicity get really angry with him.

I thought Oliver treated Felicity very badly through most of season 3 including when he left her in the Nanda Parbat jail and she thought the love of her life was going to kill her.  He didn't even to stay with the Team, he decided for her that if she wants to be with him, she can't be with the Team too.

From the time Oliver and Felicity got together, she was always on his side, through running for Mayor to almost dying, in HIVE's jail to not blaming his actions for her paralysis.  It was only when the lie about William came out that she said "No, I'm done."  Then he tried to manipulate her through the fake wedding and that's when she left the team because it was the third time he had gone against her stated wishes.

So thanks for saying why you see things that way because if you hadn't I wouldn't have thought about why I don't

[AyChihuahua]

25 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I won't ask you for examples.  But for me, I saw it the opposite way, that Diggle was allowed to get mad at Oliver a number of times, the longest being from 3x21 to 4x03, Thea was allowed to get angry enough at him that she left with Malcolm in s2 and lied to Oliver about connecting with Malcolm until almost 3x08, and Laurel was mad at him for most of four seasons but the show never let Felicity get really angry with him.

I thought Oliver treated Felicity very badly through most of season 3 including when he left her in the Nanda Parbat jail and she thought the love of her life was going to kill her.  He didn't even to stay with the Team, he decided for her that if she wants to be with him, she can't be with the Team too.

From the time Oliver and Felicity got together, she was always on his side, through running for Mayor to almost dying, in HIVE's jail to not blaming his actions for her paralysis.  It was only when the lie about William came out that she said "No, I'm done."  Then he tried to manipulate her through the fake wedding and that's when she left the team because it was the third time he had gone against her stated wishes.

So thanks for saying why you see things that way because if you hadn't I wouldn't have thought about why I don't

People IMO have very strange memories. If I were a psychologist that would be all I'd study. At a certain point enough of an opinion is formed that only events that enforce that opinion are noticed/remembered.  I think I'm fairly objective about Oliver's actions, bc I loved him until about 3.22...his actions pushed me away as a fan, and I remember them all. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

What happened in 3x23 to cause you to push away?  (He lost me from the time he came back and ignore Felicity to announce he was working with MM to the dying seconds of 3x23.  Part of me was even hoping Felicity would miss catching him with the Atom suit.)

47 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

People IMO have very strange memories. If I were a psychologist that would be all I'd study.

Adlerian therapists ask their clients for the first memory they can remember as a way of getting a snapshot as to how the client sees the world.  A prof told me that he asks for the memory to be recalled after therapy and if the client has broadened the memory and added things that previously were blocked out, the therapy was a success.

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

What happened in 3x23 to cause you to push away?  (He lost me from the time he came back and ignore Felicity to announce he was working with MM to the dying seconds of 3x23.  Part of me was even hoping Felicity would miss catching him with the Atom suit.)

322, fake-killing. They didn't just think he was maybe going to kill them, they thought he DID kill them. And IMO it was entirely unnecessary, bc if he had two working brain cells he would have looped in Felicity and Digg that he was going undercover. They would have been a HUGE planning and logistics help.

Edited February 21, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

I think the thing that makes me shudder is that Oliver relied on Malcolm to sneakily give the whole team the anti-toxin for his plan to work.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think the thing that makes me shudder is that Oliver relied on Malcolm to sneakily give the whole team the anti-toxin for his plan to work.

True. He could have easily been like, "Oops, didn't get the chance" or "I gave it to them, but I guess it didn't work." 

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think the thing that makes me shudder is that Oliver relied on Malcolm to sneakily give the whole team the anti-toxin for his plan to work.

I have so many mindfics about S3, which I absolutely loathe, and one of them is that Felicity dies either bc Malcolm intentionally doesn't give it to her (saw her as a threat) or it just doesn't work on her (we know it's not 100% effective, bc Akio died). They have to leave her body behind to avoid infecting anyone else.

One of these days I'm going to write a series with more realistic outcomes of all Oliver's idiotic decisions in S3. 

[statsgirl]

I can so see Malcolm not giving the antidote to Felicity because a mourning Oliver would be more controllable, and telling Oliver that it didn't work on her.

[AyChihuahua]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I can so see Malcolm not giving the antidote to Felicity because a mourning Oliver would be more controllable, and telling Oliver that it didn't work on her.

Yes, plus she'd challenged him a few times by then, and I can't see him really enjoying that.

It's really affecting and tragic in my head, but basically all my S3 mindfics involve throwing Felicity in a fridge to torture Oliver bc I hate his actions so much. 

[Proteus]

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

People IMO have very strange memories. If I were a psychologist that would be all I'd study. At a certain point enough of an opinion is formed that only events that enforce that opinion are noticed/remembered.  I think I'm fairly objective about Oliver's actions, bc I loved him until about 3.22...his actions pushed me away as a fan, and I remember them all. 

Comments like that are what make people not want to share differing opinions.

[scarynikki12]

Please remember to treat your fellow posters according to the PTV "Be Civil" policy.  Disagreements make for great discussion but are not grounds for being rude to one another.  If you don't like what another poster has written, use the Ignore.  If you see another poster being rude, or worse, use the Report option instead of engaging.  Both options are found at the bottom of all posts.  Posts violating the "Be Civil" policy will be removed. 

Enjoy the furballs.

 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

It's really affecting and tragic in my head, but basically all my S3 mindfics involve throwing Felicity in a fridge to torture Oliver bc I hate his actions so much. 

Wow.

Edited February 21, 2017 by lemotomato

[kismet]

I do think that FS in s3 could have made her love for OQ known sooner. But that's difficult to happen when u only give them one date and FS has no friends on the show. That would have been the perfect friend confession to let the audience in, but keep OQ at bay. However, the show decided to keep it secret. Again by failing to give FS a POV it let her vulnerable for people to think what they wanted.

I had no problem with FS moving on in s3. I just didn't like her choice. I also thought they wrote RP far too creepy for too long. But that said her being with RP was typical tv melodrama stall. However that SL was too much about RP for me.

I do think the break up was more about OQ shutting FS out of big life decision of what to do about William, more so than the secret keeping. Which honestly I think was the better choice. FS & OQ had been friends & partners long before they were committed fiancees. So for him to unilaterally make that video without her input was horrendous, especially after she took the lying so well. The lie was really big, but her exclusion from the situation at all levels and multiple times is when he went way too far.

I get that they needed to break them up. I just really wish they had avoided trust issues, because that was one of the core tenets that I loved about O/F - they always had a deep fundamental trust in each other - even when they were with other people. It made their relationship superior to others on the show. For the show to ruin that for plot I think was one of the worst choices they ever made. I mean how could they not see how bad it would be? Just make it about them moving too fast. But they took a direct hit right at the foundation of what made O/F great. Even if they bring them back together, the couple will never be the same for me.

[ladylaw99]

For me it is everything, the lie, not including her in decisions, trust being destroyed. The writers ruined alot for me. 

If it happened once, I could get over it but it happened numerous times. We all see what we see, I understand everyone's point of view -  some may dislike Felicity, I just happen to dislike Oliver. 

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

Comments like that are what make people not want to share differing opinions.

Really? I meant it as a general thing. I was actually specifically thinking about politics, but in general, it seems that people who dislike a character tend to remember that character's unlikable actions, while forgetting the similar or worse actions of a character they like. It's a statement of human nature, not an insult.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

I do think the break up was more about OQ shutting FS out of big life decision of what to do about William, more so than the secret keeping. Which honestly I think was the better choice. FS & OQ had been friends & partners long before they were committed fiancees. So for him to unilaterally make that video without her input was horrendous, especially after she took the lying so well. The lie was really big, but her exclusion from the situation at all levels and multiple times is when he went way too far.

What made it worse for me is that he'd spent all of s3 shutting her out an making decisions for her.  He'd pull her close by asking her out for a big date, telling her loved her etc. and then shut her out making the decision entirely on his own.  The worst for me was when he and Diggle shut her out about the decision to go to Nanda Parbat to save Malcolm and relegating Felicity to the same level as Laurel and Thea.  No wonder she went to Ray and as soon as he showed the smallest indication that he, unlike Oliver, valued her input, she accepted his invitation and slept with him.

So when Oliver, after almost a year of living with her and asking her to marry him, started to do the same thing again, no wonder she'd had enough.

[statsgirl]

Bringing this over from the Spoiler Discussion thread so I don't get into trouble:

3 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Exactly! For FS to just walk away, was OOC.  Also I am not saying someone should stay in a relationship with someone that is bad for them just because they knew going in.   I'm saying that there was no fighting for their relationship, their bond, their love....anything from either of them.....they both just gave up.....  My mom's point was that, that's not an option in marriage,  if you want your marriage to work you have to try to make it work not just give up and walk away.

To me....the thing that sat more unsettling with me was how fast she forgave her mom.  Her mom lied to her for 20 years.  She believed that her father left her.  She told her father she believed she was UNLOVABLE because he had left her.   She admitted that she had self esteem problems, relationship problems....because she thought she wasn't good enough.  Her mother did that, and never stepped forward and said anything.  But she forgave her mother, because she understood her mother meant well and was trying to protect her.

...........But she ....called off her wedding and left Oliver and  the team because he kept a secret for 3 months, thinking he was doing the right thing and was protecting his son.

I think it was easier to forgive her mom because her mom was trying to protect Felicity.  Oliver was only protecting himself, as was clear in 4x08.  Barry told him that he thought Felicity broke up with him because Oliver told her about his son so he lied and said there was nothing wrong.

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

True. And then there's 4x08 where she told him that they were a team and she wanted to be a good teammate. 

To quote The Gambler:  "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run..."

It's true that  you have to work at a relationship, but it's equally true that it's asking for trouble to marry someone and expect him/her to change.  Felicity accepted that Oliver was traumatized from his time away and that he would need time to heal.  But she also told him what she expected from her marital partner, which was to be a true partner.

Oliver knew that she was upset at his keeping William a secret from her, especially after she had told him that she wanted them to be real partners.  I think if Oliver had consulted her about what to do with William, the way he talked to Diggle and Vixen, a woman he had met only once before in his life, Felicity might not have walked away.  But barely after she finished telling him that he should have told her about William, on his own and without talking to her at all, he sends William away.  I guess she figured that this was the real Oliver, the one who when the chips were down would always shut her out of decisions and decide on his own.  Time to walk away because he's not going to change.

Did Felicity walk away too quickly?  Maybe,she was young and not experienced in relationships. But then Oliver compounded his mistakes with his real vows at the fake wedding when he knew she had asked him to stay away emotionally.  Three strikes and you're out.

[kismet]

You know the sad part. I do think if O/F reflected a real couple or resembled the people they had been for 3.5 years, they would have tried to work it out. OQ never would have shut her out of what to do about William post-kidnapping. Not after their impassioned speeches about partnerships and FS supportive nature about Williams reveal. I do think he might have kept William a secret for too long out of shear fear about what to do, bad habits and poor parental examples. 

But that was not what they needed the story to do. So they broke it for their plot purposes. Straight into the iceberg it went.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

You know the sad part. I do think if O/F reflected a real couple or resembled the people they had been for 3.5 years, they would have tried to work it out. OQ never would have shut her out of what to do about William post-kidnapping. Not after their impassioned speeches about partnerships and FS supportive nature about Williams reveal. I do think he might have kept William a secret for too long out of shear fear about what to do, bad habits and poor parental examples. 

But that was not what they needed the story to do. So they broke it for their plot purposes. Straight into the iceberg it went.

Yeah, there was a point where I wanted Felicity and Oliver to work through his idiocy in keeping William from her.  Even with Malcolm knowing, I could still see it as Oliver effing up.  A huge mistake, but still a mistake.  But when in the same episode he again shut Felicity out of what was not just a a huge life choice in sending William away, but in the conversation about what making that choice meant to them as a couple and to their future, it stopped being Oliver making a mistake and became how he was going to behave as a partner.    

That's when it went from a mistake they could stick together and work past to IMO them needing to step back and really take a good look at everything.  Oliver started promising he'd never act like that again, but while she might have believed him if it had just been with hiding William, he proved it wasn't an isolated choice.  And at that point, as bad as I wanted them not to break up, the trust was gone and nothing Oliver could say would bring it back.  

The only thing that could at that point repair the breach of trust was time and IMO for Oliver to show that he was serious when he said he'd never behave like that with her again.  On Felicity's side, I'm not really sure what she could have done or told herself so that she could move past it.  She still desperately loved him but her faith in that part of their relationship was gone.  It IMO becomes a question of can the trust and faith come back.

 I would have preferred to see Oliver get put in a tough position and this time make the right choice and include her, but instead it seems they are just making Oliver more willing to open up to a bunch of other people (even when I don't think he should).  

On Felicity's side, maybe the point of having her make these unilateral choices is not for her to change her mind and think Oliver was right, (cause that's never happening for me)  but to understand how seductive a habit it can be to make these unilateral choices.  It gets stuff done.  But it's also dangerous and isolating since going it alone can lead to a slipper slope of justification that leads you to a darker place.  If we could get something from Oliver that spelled out that he knows it's something he'll always have to guard against, I think the season could leave Felicity more sympathetic to him trying to improve and more  willing to help him when he stumbles without her sacrificing her integrity and pride or her willingness to risk again being with him in a romantic relationship. 

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, there was a point where I wanted Felicity and Oliver to work through his idiocy in keeping William from her.  Even with Malcolm knowing, I could still see it as Oliver effing up.  A huge mistake, but still a mistake.  But when in the same episode he again shut Felicity out of what was not just a a huge life choice in sending William away, but in the conversation about what making that choice meant to them as a couple and to their future, it stopped being Oliver making a mistake and became how he was going to behave as a partner.    

That's when it went from a mistake they could stick together and work past to IMO them needing to step back and really take a good look at everything.  Oliver started promising he'd never act like that again, but while she might have believed him if it had just been with hiding William, he proved it wasn't an isolated choice.  And at that point, as bad as I wanted them not to break up, the trust was gone and nothing Oliver could say would bring it back.  

The only thing that could at that point repair the breach of trust was time and IMO for Oliver to show that he was serious when he said he'd never behave like that with her again.  On Felicity's side, I'm not really sure what she could have done or told herself so that she could move past it.  She still desperately loved him but her faith in that part of their relationship was gone.  It IMO becomes a question of can the trust and faith come back.

 I would have preferred to see Oliver get put in a tough position and this time make the right choice and include her, but instead it seems they are just making Oliver more willing to open up to a bunch of other people (even when I don't think he should). 

"Opening up to a bunch of other people (even when I don't think he should)" seems to be Oliver's middle name.

People usually talk about Oliver lying to Felicity as the reason for their break-up but for me, it was sending William away after Felicity told him she wanted them to be equals in their partnership.  At that point there was no Samantha blackmailing him, no time threat of HIVE holding William.  It was just Oliver deciding to go it alone yet again.

Pushing her too far in the fake wedding just confirmed it.

[AyChihuahua]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

"Opening up to a bunch of other people (even when I don't think he should)" seems to be Oliver's middle name.

People usually talk about Oliver lying to Felicity as the reason for their break-up but for me, it was sending William away after Felicity told him she wanted them to be equals in their partnership.  At that point there was no Samantha blackmailing him, no time threat of HIVE holding William.  It was just Oliver deciding to go it alone yet again.

Pushing her too far in the fake wedding just confirmed it.

Any of those things are more than enough for me. All of them combined are therefore way more than enough. That's why I'm not particular about which exact aspect finally drove her away. He behaved absolutely horribly throughout that entire dumb-as-actual-literal-crap storyline and IRL almost no relationship would survive that.

[kismet]

They doubled down on the stupid actions by OQ to make it an absolute reality that O/F break up. And for FS to be left with no choice but to leave him. 

I disliked the fake wedding, but if they wanted to make it a little better they could have had it be FS idea. She still could have been heartbroken, but at least it would have been her idea to put the mission first. And who thought it was a good idea to have realistic romantic vows? Just get it done with to get the bad guy. I don't need to see OQ emotionally bartering with FS after legitimately doing so much wrong.

I don't understand why they can't show any emotional growth or intelligence when it comes to OQ. Every season they do the same assault on their characters, and they never spare OQ. He is made to look so dumb year after year, its getting insulting to watch. I'm not dumb, I'm getting upset that the writers just assume the audience is dumb enough to believe that OQ learned nothing again.

If and when they reunite O/F, I fully expect him to do something dumb that puts them in jeopardy midseason. What's the point of reuniting them, if I know they will only mess them up again for plot purposes? I love them together but if the writing pattern is going to remain the same, I don't really have a big desire to watch them reunite only to be melodramatically ripped apart for plot. I thought they would be a different and unique TV couple writing wise, guess that was too much to ask for or believe possible. 

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, kismet said:

I disliked the fake wedding, but if they wanted to make it a little better they could have had it be FS idea. She still could have been heartbroken, but at least it would have been her idea to put the mission first. And who thought it was a good idea to have realistic romantic vows? Just get it done with to get the bad guy. I don't need to see OQ emotionally bartering with FS after legitimately doing so much wrong.

Yeah, and the fake wedding also hurt Felicity's relationships with Diggle and Thea because they didn't seem to care at all how she felt about it. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

If and when they reunite O/F, I fully expect him to do something dumb that puts them in jeopardy midseason. What's the point of reuniting them, if I know they will only mess them up again for plot purposes? I love them together but if the writing pattern is going to remain the same, I don't really have a big desire to watch them reunite only to be melodramatically ripped apart for plot. I thought they would be a different and unique TV couple writing wise, guess that was too much to ask for or believe possible. 

Oliver doing something dumb come midseason seems like a given, but I don't think that it has to be something that hurts a future Olicity that would be going forward.  They've already done the huge break up that most tv couples get stuck with.  When ( I'm thinking positive) they get together again, I do believe that the show writers will not try to break them up again.  There will be conflicts but not deal breakers and most of the dumb will be stuff that they can cope with together, not be used to rip them apart.

I would have LOVED for the show to be bold and daring and actually skip the break up trope since for this couple, since in order to make  the break up happen, they had to force totally out of character decisions onto Oliver.  I remain convinced that the Oliver we watched would have had zero trouble lying to BM and confiding in Felicity.  The contrivance didn't just hurt Olicity, but was really brutal to Oliver.  I left the season feeling like I really didn't know his character.  It was a breach of trust between me the viewer and the writers of the show.  What happened only happened because they decided it would happen, not because it was something justifiably born out of the character.  Maybe that's why I can't hate Oliver.  I see the strings.  

[kismet]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver doing something dumb come midseason seems like a given, but I don't think that it has to be something that hurts a future Olicity that would be going forward.  They've already done the huge break up that most tv couples get stuck with.  When ( I'm thinking positive) they get together again, I do believe that the show writers will not try to break them up again.  There will be conflicts but not deal breakers and most of the dumb will be stuff that they can cope with together, not be used to rip them apart.

I would have LOVED for the show to be bold and daring and actually skip the break up trope since for this couple, since in order to make  the break up happen, they had to force totally out of character decisions onto Oliver.  I remain convinced that the Oliver we watched would have had zero trouble lying to BM and confiding in Felicity.  The contrivance didn't just hurt Olicity, but was really brutal to Oliver.  I left the season feeling like I really didn't know his character.  It was a breach of trust between me the viewer and the writers of the show.  What happened only happened because they decided it would happen, not because it was something justifiably born out of the character.  Maybe that's why I can't hate Oliver.  I see the strings.  

From your keys to the writers & TPTB's brains. You have more faith in them than I do. But they have betrayed my trust a few too many times. And OQ is my fav character, so yeah the fact that this is what they decided to do was devastating to me. How could they not get it together after so many seasons? I thought we were done with the dumb after they completed the first trilogy (s1-3). But nope they have doubled down on his stupidity - esp this year with the reporter. I don't want to be the stupid one in this relationship, and the writers have made me feel like I'm the one that is dumb for trusting them season after season, until this season when I've done a no trust policy. I don't have the show I want, but at least I'm not feeling stupid - I just see the show for what it is, as opposed to what it should have been.

[lizonthefritz]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver doing something dumb come midseason seems like a given, but I don't think that it has to be something that hurts a future Olicity that would be going forward.  They've already done the huge break up that most tv couples get stuck with.  When ( I'm thinking positive) they get together again, I do believe that the show writers will not try to break them up again.  There will be conflicts but not deal breakers and most of the dumb will be stuff that they can cope with together, not be used to rip them apart.

I would have LOVED for the show to be bold and daring and actually skip the break up trope since for this couple, since in order to make  the break up happen, they had to force totally out of character decisions onto Oliver.  I remain convinced that the Oliver we watched would have had zero trouble lying to BM and confiding in Felicity.  The contrivance didn't just hurt Olicity, but was really brutal to Oliver.  I left the season feeling like I really didn't know his character.  It was a breach of trust between me the viewer and the writers of the show.  What happened only happened because they decided it would happen, not because it was something justifiably born out of the character.  Maybe that's why I can't hate Oliver.  I see the strings.  

I totally agree on the breach of trust, especially because it's so very obvious that they put no effort at all into changing this scenario from the couple they first dreamed it up for - Oliver/Laurel.

Because OF COURSE Samantha would beg Oliver not to tell Laurel - her friend! - that she had betrayed her, and OF COURSE Oliver would see this news as a very real threat to his current relationship since this was real life evidence of his unfaithfulness at a different time of their lives, and OF COURSE Oliver would do everything in his power to make sure that Laurel didn't get hurt by this news or break up with him because of it. (I don't think the unilateral decision-making that was the nail in Olicity's coffin would have even become a thing had KC remained as LI.)

In order to make Felicity and Oliver fit the scenario, they were forced to twist and distort their characters (mainly Oliver's, but Felicity's OOC reaction to the news in the first timeline on The Flash also comes to mind), when they could just as well have come up with a completely different scenario. I just think they writers were so in love with the idea that they could hearken back to a plot point that had already spanned several seasons that they just couldn't even conceive of letting it go for the sake of the characters. And THAT'S why I can't trust them anymore.

[Midnight Lullaby]

On 22/02/2017 at 7:34 AM, statsgirl said:

Bringing this over from the Spoiler Discussion thread so I don't get into trouble:

I think it was easier to forgive her mom because her mom was trying to protect Felicity.  Oliver was only protecting himself, as was clear in 4x08.  Barry told him that he thought Felicity broke up with him because Oliver told her about his son so he lied and said there was nothing wrong.

To quote The Gambler:  "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run..."

It's true that  you have to work at a relationship, but it's equally true that it's asking for trouble to marry someone and expect him/her to change.  Felicity accepted that Oliver was traumatized from his time away and that he would need time to heal.  But she also told him what she expected from her marital partner, which was to be a true partner.

Oliver knew that she was upset at his keeping William a secret from her, especially after she had told him that she wanted them to be real partners.  I think if Oliver had consulted her about what to do with William, the way he talked to Diggle and Vixen, a woman he had met only once before in his life, Felicity might not have walked away.  But barely after she finished telling him that he should have told her about William, on his own and without talking to her at all, he sends William away.  I guess she figured that this was the real Oliver, the one who when the chips were down would always shut her out of decisions and decide on his own.  Time to walk away because he's not going to change.

Did Felicity walk away too quickly?  Maybe,she was young and not experienced in relationships. But then Oliver compounded his mistakes with his real vows at the fake wedding when he knew she had asked him to stay away emotionally.  Three strikes and you're out.

Also her mom is family. She is the woman that raised and cared for her on her own. Breaking up with a man is one thing but a mom, especially if it's the only parent you have ever known, is another thing entirely.

I think when you love someone you want to think of the best. That with you it's going to be different..to make a RL example I dated someone I knew was unfaithful in the past to his other girlfriend..we have been friends forever, I loved him and I really thought he wasn't going to do the same to me because everything he did and say told me how much he cared for me. He was unfaithful to me too and I probably should have seen it coming but I wanted to hope for the best and I don't accept that because I knew what he did in the past I should have accepted it and stayed with him anyway. It's all about someone's standards. There are women that stay with cheating husbands/boyfriends and I respect that but that's not who I am.

If Felicity accepted the kind of relationship Oliver could offer at the moment she would have settled and that wouldn't have been fair to her or Oliver imo. She has never needed Oliver to be perfect but him not being a true partner was a deal breaker for her.

[ladylaw99]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver doing something dumb come midseason seems like a given, but I don't think that it has to be something that hurts a future Olicity that would be going forward.  They've already done the huge break up that most tv couples get stuck with.  When ( I'm thinking positive) they get together again, I do believe that the show writers will not try to break them up again.  There will be conflicts but not deal breakers and most of the dumb will be stuff that they can cope with together, not be used to rip them apart.

I would have LOVED for the show to be bold and daring and actually skip the break up trope since for this couple, since in order to make  the break up happen, they had to force totally out of character decisions onto Oliver.  I remain convinced that the Oliver we watched would have had zero trouble lying to BM and confiding in Felicity.  The contrivance didn't just hurt Olicity, but was really brutal to Oliver.  I left the season feeling like I really didn't know his character.  It was a breach of trust between me the viewer and the writers of the show.  What happened only happened because they decided it would happen, not because it was something justifiably born out of the character.  Maybe that's why I can't hate Oliver.  I see the strings.  

You are a much better viewer than I am.  I agree with what you said except for me, unfortunately, I dislike Oliver right now.  These writers damaged his character starting with the BMD and they are still damaging his character with this reporter story.  I can't wrap my head around their decisions when it comes to Oliver.

[rtalive]

On 2/21/2017 at 0:53 AM, Starfish35 said:

It's interesting how people can watch something and come away with two totally different interpretations.  To me, the show worked so hard to keep Oliver from being the bad guy that they inadvertently made Felicity the "bad guy".   I don't think they intended it that way, but in spite of everything, they put in too many people defending Oliver's viewpoint, and Felicity's viewpoint was never allowed to be defended, or even expressed for that matter.  So she ended up coming across as harsh and unreasonable.  

I mean, to me, I'm on her side.  I see her viewpoint anyway.  But I think because the show never allowed for a defense of her viewpoint - it only ever looked at the situation from Oliver's POV - she came off looking like the "bad guy" in the breakup.  And frankly I put  that squarely on the writers.

I also think they cut the legs out from under her (no pun intended, really) by not allowing her to get mad about the lying.  They were so intent on justifying his lying that they took away her strongest reason for walking away.  But then they still had to force the breakup, so they threw in that "not including me in your decisions" bit.  Which...yes, I can understand it if I think about it a little, but it would have been much more effective if they'd simply let her get mad about the lying, about asking her to move up the wedding after Malcolm found out, about seemingly everyone knowing but her.  But they couldn't do that without making Oliver look in the wrong. :(

The thing is that people have different point of views based on their different personalities and experiences and whether we like it or not based on sex. A lot of women are on Felicity's side and most men are on Oliver's.

Me personally I am a woman, but I am on Oliver's side merely, because I have been on his position. Two people are there in the relationship together and share one path, but each one of them still remains independent individual with having things that are just theirs. IF one of them decides that they want to deal with things that concerns just them, it is their right. A secret is awful thing only if it directly affect the other one. It's like trying to top a really high steep pike in a mountain, you go there with a partner and you are both tied with a rope, so your life depends on them, but in the end every step you make further depends only on you, you make the decision where to put you leg next, if you slip you partner can hold you and pull you back or fall with you, or just cut the cord and let you fall. Oliver didn't ask Felicity about his son, he didn't share with her about this step, he was going to make and he slipped, what she did is to cut the rope.

This is one of the things that made me stop shipping the couple. The other is that they took this awesome female character, that was so precious and so unique on her own and turned her into mere love interest. She was there to create conflict and divide the fandom. And she still divides the fandom, based on the stories they give her. Before she was like Diggle, a partner, a friend, there to be a hero on her own, like with the Slade thing. She was more interesting than Diggle, but Diggle got his stories who are solely for him and she became supporting character of drama and relationships. I agree that Oliver is really not a relationship material for more than one reason, but that is why his love drama should have been with people outside the team or with a character that does not inspire drama and has her development outside the relationship.

In recent interview Amell said the couple broke because of lack of trust. Well if those two never became more than partners than this would have never been the case. They both trust each other with their lives but broke up because of lack of trust. Where is the common sense here that I have to root for that couple.

[Chaser]

I find the gender divide interesting. I think it's more of an internet thing. I've known a handful of guys who watch Arrow and with the exception of one (who is full comic dudebro), all were on Felicity's side. 

[lemotomato]

19 minutes ago, rtalive said:

This is one of the things that made me stop shipping the couple. The other is that they took this awesome female character, that was so precious and so unique on her own and turned her into mere love interest. She was there to create conflict and divide the fandom.

Can you explain why you think that it's Felicity that's causing conflict when Oliver was the one keeping huge secrets from her and lying? Is it because she stood up for herself and didn't just roll over and accept the way he treated her like an unequal partner?

[ComicFan777]

This isn't just any secret though.  He can't just choose not to share this information.  In keeping his son a secret from Felicity and getting married to her, he was going to make her a stepmom without her knowledge.  It is information that he is obligated to tell her before they are married because once they are married, she has legal responsibilities as a stepmom to William.

Edited February 24, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Thundercatmary]

They broke up because of "plot" to stall them.

Also nothing justifies hiding a child from your fiancé. I mean how does that even work? Once married she's his step mother, does Felicity then refuse to help out with the child then? Like sorry Oliver I know your sons really sick but he's "just yours." 

Also it's not fair to force someone into a parental role like that, she deserved to know beforehand so she could make an informed decision. Who knows maybe she doesn't want children, I mean who knows but he should have at least have a convo with her about the kid. 

[insomniadreams88]

There's also the fact that they made a pretty big deal out of the fact that Felicity had money last year and Oliver didn't, but he used hers - to buy that truck, to buy those drugs, to fund his campaign, etc. 

[Mellowyellow]

This divided reaction to Felicity breaking up with Oliver is fascinating.

I would say it comes down to personalities. I am a "You cross me once in our marriage I will take all your money and destroy you" kind of gal so if anything I found Felicity a bit soft about the whole debacle and keep wishing for her to have a feral meltdown that will never happen (because it's not in her character). I got very worked up after 415 and went into full "over protective of Felicity" mode. I'd leave someone for a hell lot less than what Oliver did! 

Now one of my friends (hehe I roped one into watching Arrow so I could rant at her) who is much more of the "We are in this for the long haul we must try to work this out, everyone needs a chance and looooooots of time to grow" type of girl thinks that Felicity was totally harsh for breaking up with him. 

[dtissagirl]

54 minutes ago, rtalive said:

IF one of them decides that they want to deal with things that concerns just them, it is their right. A secret is awful thing only if it directly affect the other one.

So, if Malcolm and DD hadn't kidnapped the kid, and Felicity married Oliver, would it be all right if he just kept his son secret from her forever? What if Baby Mama sued for alimony, what would happen then? Because at that point by law, Felicity would have to pay it, since Oliver had no income whatsoever last season. How is all of that not directly affecting Felicity?

[ladylaw99]

My husband had the pleasure of watching 4.15, the only ep he has ever seen of Arrow, why he choose to watch this ep is beyond me, but he did and boy oh boy was he disgusted.  He has no background knowledge of Oliver and Felicity, so for him it is all about the lie and lack of discussion.  He could not believe that someone would actually think it was ok to not tell your partner for life about a kid.  That is huge.  You are asking someone to take responsibility of another life.  He didn't discuss anything with her.  My husband understood why Felicity was upset and angry.    He couldn't stand the baby momma because who makes that kind of decision and worst who accepts it.   He had no respect for Oliver.  At the end of the ep I swear I thought his eyes were going to fall out. He hated the ending (between Oliver not discussing anything and not saying he was sorry and Felicity miraculously walking out) . He has never watched a ep since.

Just because you are married or in a long term relationship doesn't mean you lose your identity but you can't make a decision on your own if it is going to effect your partner.  You need to discuss and get their point of view especially if it is a kid. There is a financial and emotional responsibility when it comes to children.