Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

26 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

This is forgotten thanks to the dumpster fire that was the baby mama storyline, but critics hated the "Oliver leaves Felicity alone in the hospital" storyline, too.  I remember Ryan McGee saying he was not watching Arrow after that, although I have no idea if he followed through.  

I hated that storyline, too, and assumed there'd be payoff later, but nope.

That's true, I forgot about it. People from TVLine and Chris Hayner on Twitter were very hard on Oliver for that. Way, way more than the fans.

[Password]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I think there actually was. He was present during Felicity's recovery from that point on and around for both Thea's and Laurel's later hospitalizations. There was no grand gesture, but it felt like he progressed on that front at least.

If anything seeing him at Laurel and Thea's bedside only made me more angry he wasn't with Felicity. 

I know we've discussed that storyline in the episode thread but what really irritated me about it was I never felt invested in Oliver's rage because I was never allowed to see him worrying at her bedside. They skipped so many emotional beats that episode I just wanted to kick Oliver in the face. 

[wonderwall]

48 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

I feel like a lot of people are so quick to point to Olicity as being the big problems with the show. In reality I think it boils down to two things, to many masks on the show and taking the focus away from Original Team Arrow.

Well... Partially. 

I think the biggest issue Arrow faces are:

• Lazy writing
• Writing for plot instead of character
• Poorly structured/poorly planned season
• Poorly developed villains (they say the hero is only as good as the villain)
• Arrow writers have trouble following through with what they set up
• Too many masks (which they fixed with killing Laurel but now are running into the same issues with bringing in Curtis)
• Taking focus away from the core 3
• We hardly see the characters as everyday people anymore. Season 4 made improvements but they still have a ways to go. 
• Limited interactions/bonding between characters (just because we all know they're friends doesn't mean we don't need to see them interact/be friendly/go out for dinners/bond etc.

Edited June 8, 2016 by wonderwall

[Password]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

• Limited interactions/bonding between characters (just because we all know they're friends doesn't mean we don't need to see them interact/be friendly/go out for dinners/bond etc.

I think if there's one thing The Flash succeeds at it's these chill moments. Moments at the end of the episode where the characters enjoy themselves after a day of saving lives. In 4A the writers did it somewhat with Oliver and Felicity. But as a team, I can only think of the OTA interaction in episode 3 where they went out at the end. 

[dtissagirl]

18 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I think the biggest issue Arrow faces are:

I would add:

•  Having to write 3 or 4 present time scenes every episode in a certain way, that makes those scenes end in a place that allows for transition into flashbacks. This imo is one of biggest things not allowing scenes to breathe -- they can't, because they need to end abruptly for the transition to the flashbacks to work.

The flashbacks ruin everything. They're worse than Barry.

[looptab]

34 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Well... Partially. 

I think the biggest issue Arrow faces are:

• Lazy writing
• Writing for plot instead of character
• Poorly structured/poorly planned season
• Poorly developed villains (they say the hero is only as good as the villain)
• Arrow writers have trouble following through with what they set up
• Too many masks (which they fixed with killing Laurel but now are running into the same issues with bringing in Curtis)
• Taking focus away from the core 3
• We hardly see the characters as everyday people anymore. Season 4 made improvements but they still have a ways to go. 
• Limited interactions/bonding between characters (just because we all know they're friends doesn't mean we don't need to see them interact/be friendly/go out for dinners/bond etc.

Well, this list is certainly true, but IMO the italics parts above have always been there. But, it started going downhill when they started inserting masks left and right and forgot all about OTA, so I think @Thundercatmary isn't that far off in saying that that's what it boils down to. With these two things, all the rest becomes unbearable.

51 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I think there actually was. He was present during Felicity's recovery from that point on and around for both Thea's and Laurel's later hospitalizations. There was no grand gesture, but it felt like he progressed on that front at least.

I appreciated him a lot during Felicity's recovery. And when Curtis gave Felicity the microchip in 414 his reaction got to me as much as Felicity's. But when he was in that freaking hospital room in 418 saying stuff like "I'm not going anywhere" or whatever he said, I wanted to throw things. Then I remind myself that this is Oliver, and that he didn't go to his own mother's funeral, so..*deep breaths*

Edited June 8, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

I'm just unbothered by Oliver's presence in Laurel's hospital room. In my book, it was him learning from his mistakes. 

Moving back to the break up, something I still don't understand is it suddenly being framed as being caused by their crime fighting activities. Oliver was moping to Laurel about that not being a good life. On its own, I could shrug it off, but then they threw Felicity in there as well with similar reasoning, and I am still as stumped now as I was then. So if anyone has an explanation for that, I'd gladly read and consider it.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm just unbothered by Oliver's presence in Laurel's hospital room. In my book, it was him learning from his mistakes. 

Moving back to the break up, something I still don't understand is it suddenly being framed as being caused by their crime fighting activities. Oliver was moping to Laurel about that not being a good life. On its own, I could shrug it off, but then they threw Felicity in there as well with similar reasoning, and I am still as stumped now as I was then. So if anyone has an explanation for that, I'd gladly read and consider it.

When Felicity broke it off with him for good, she said that because of "this life" there would be a time when he'd choose to lie/hide something from her again. I guess that's why?

[thegirlsleuth]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

I think there actually was. He was present during Felicity's recovery from that point on and around for both Thea's and Laurel's later hospitalizations. There was no grand gesture, but it felt like he progressed on that front at least.

I do take your point, but I felt like he never had any problem with being at other's bedsides through the series, particularly Thea's. I could see him going out and kicking ass, trying to make things right, but I think it was cruel that he wasn't there when she found out she couldn't walk again, and I'm pissed that writing had this big momentous situation for Felicity happen off screen.    

Edited June 8, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[bijoux]

But where did "this life" come from all of a sudden? That's what puzzles me. Because it wasn't that that broke them up, rather Oliver's innability to reach a logical conclusion, i.e. Felicity = life and work partner, and master secret keeper. The lie was never motivated by his GA identity so both of them going on about "this life" is non-sensical.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

But where did "this life" come from all of a sudden? That's what puzzles me. Because it wasn't that that broke them up, rather Oliver's innability to reach a logical conclusion, i.e. Felicity = life and work partner, and master secret keeper. The lie was never motivated by his GA identity so both of them going on about "this life" is non-sensical.

I think we are supposed to believe that he kept the secret to keep his kid safe because he is the GA? It makes zero sense but apparently that's what they tried to sell, especially with the Oliver/Thea scene. 

[looptab]

That is the stupidest thing they ever tried to sell. The dumb kid was kidnapped because he was Oliver's son. Oliver's. Not GA's. At that point DD had no idea who he really was. God, that episode is so stupid.

[bijoux]

So, no reasonable explanation for this life then? Cool.

[tangerine95]

I don't think they're trying to sell it like it's because of GA that they broke up.Like when he told Laurel it was about that she was like it was because of you, not because you're the GA or something like that.And Digg also called him out on not changing or evolving as the reason he lost Felicity when they were fighting about Andy.I think they had Oliver believe it was because of his life as GA but people always seem to correct him when he says that.But yeah Felicity also mentioned this life and I guess it would give him more opportunities to lie like the whole telling Malcolm the plan and not the team thing from season 3 but their current issue wasn't GA related at all.

I do think it was weird and made Oliver look bad that he wasn't with Felicity at the hospital.They made up for it with how great he was later in her recovery and he did really apologize at the end of the episode but I don't buy that Oliver would do that at that point in his development. I can see him leaving to fight DD if he had to but I don't see him avoiding the hospital like he did. I think it was partially done to so they can later show him able to be there at the hospital and the funeral when Laurel died and not fall apart or regress and call it development and also so they can keep the action scenes with Oliver in the episode.

[looptab]

It is one of those things where the writers themselves go back and forth. Let's try and see.

408: Oliver lies to Felicity. Supposedly because Samantha asked him to. Before that, he considered with Barry that it would be best for him to stay out of his son's life, given his dangerous life, but ultimately decides against it and meets him.

414: Thea tells Oliver that he has to keep the promise he made to the Holy Mother of His Son. She points out that he leads a dangerous life and that not keeping his son a secret would put said son at risk. This risk apparently came from Felicity.

415: The dumb kid gets kidnapped by DD for being Oliver Queen's son. Ultimately Oliver decides not to be a part of his life to spare him the dangers that come from being related to him until he is 18. Felicity breaks up with Oliver because not only he didn't tell her he had a son, he didn't include her in his decision to send his son away.

416: Diggle asks Oliver if Felicity left him because of his son. Oliver answers that it was because he lied to her. Dig tells him to give her time. Oliver promises Felicity he'll never ever lie again. Felicity tells him that no matter how much he loves her, he'll always go back to being the man on the island, who had to survive alone and came back to fight alone, and at some point he'll be put in a position where he has to lie to her again because that's this life and they both know it.

417: Bees. Oliver complains with Laurel that this is not a good life, that he had left it and was happy, but he came back and everything blew up in his face. Laurel remarks that it wasn't because of this life but because of his choices as Oliver.*Bees.

418: Dig tells Oliver that people can change and grow and evolve, that he is stuck in his self-pity and self-righteousness and that's why Felicity left him. 

419:"Find another way" speech.

420: Oliver states that he will never be rid of the darkness, that Felicity herself said that he'd always be the man on the island. Felicity tells him that she said that because she was hurt and that she believes he can change.

Am I forgetting something? Was there anything else of notice re:the break-up? They threw a little bit of everything in this thing. 

*This part was not as accurate as the others because I don't remember the episode well, and no way I'm rewatching a L/O scene. :D

Edited June 8, 2016 by looptab
added the part about "the man on the island" and subsequent references to it in 420

[thegirlsleuth]

5 minutes ago, looptab said:

It is one of those things where the writers themselves go back and forth. Let's try and see.

408: Oliver lies to Felicity. Supposedly because Samantha asked him to. Before that, he considered with Barry that it would be best for him to stay out of his son's life, given his dangerous life, but ultimately decides against it and meets him.

414: Thea tells Oliver that he has to keep the promise he made to the Holy Mother of His Son. She points out that he leads a dangerous life and that not keeping his son a secret would put said son at risk. This risk apparently came from Felicity.

415: The dumb kid gets kidnapped by DD for being Oliver Queen's son. Ultimately Oliver decides not to be a part of his life to spare him the dangers that come from being related to him until he is 18. Felicity breaks up with Oliver because not only he didn't tell her he had a son, he didn't include her in his decision to send his son away.

416: Diggle asks Oliver if Felicity left him because of his son. Oliver answers that it was because he lied to her. Dig tells him to give her time. Oliver promises Felicity he'll never ever lie again. Felicity tells him that no matter how much he loves her, at some poit he'll be put in a position where he has to lie to her again because that's this life and they both know it.

417: Bees. Oliver complains with Laurel that this is not a good life, that he had left it and was happy, but he came back and everything blew up in his face. Laurel remarks that it wasn't because of this life but because of his choices as Oliver.*Bees.

418: Dig tells Oliver that people can change and grow and evolve, that he is stuck in his self-pity and self-righteousness and that's why Felicity left him. 

Am I forgetting something? Was there anything else of notice re:the break-up? They threw a little bit of everything in this thing. 

*This part was not as accurate as the others because I don't remember the episode well, and no way I'm rewatching a L/O scene. :D

I feel like Malcolm Merlyn finding out and Oliver failing to take any action should be in there somewhere, but I didn't have a good sense of what Oliver was thinking after that.

[looptab]

14 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I feel like Malcolm Merlyn finding out and Oliver failing to take any action should be in there somewhere, but I didn't have a good sense of what Oliver was thinking after that.

Well, though significant, I didn't feel that part was relevant to the discussion about the reasons for the break-up.Malcolm didn't really advise him about the secret, but he just commented on what would he do if he had to choose between his son and his city.

[apinknightmare]

The hamster that powers Oliver's brain seems to run half speed whenever there's any kind of threat or ultimatum regarding a loved one, so in dumb Oliver logic, since Samantha told him that no, he may not tell Felicity, it's...whatever. It's dumb, but someone made the (incorrect, stupid) correlation that telling Felicity = no kid. That Oliver didn't immediately tell EVERYONE on the team about William the hot second that he was made aware that Malcolm knew he existed, like...good lord, whoever came up with that needs to be fired. Would that be MG/WM? Or something that got pitched in the writers' room? Yikes. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

A few months ago, I became very impartial to how O/F ended s5. I wouldn't say apathetic, that's too strong of a word. But I did find that I was no longer invested or motivated to figure it out. And I think that general sense of whatever will be will be took over the writers room. I know they will get back together once the plot has played its course, so that gives me comfort. But I can't get inspired or angsty when the writing/plot is so obvious and poorly constructed.

They took a beloved couple oozing with natural chemistry and partnership, and forced them through one of the most predictable and contrived break-ups for plot purposes. After already dragging them through ringer with the over-the-top and ill received melodramatic angst of s3. The angst and the break-up were poorly conceived and poorly written, its no wonder it sucked all the remaining inspiration out of the room to reconcile them for the s4 finale.

Sometimes after pummeling a couple that hard for plot purposes as opposed to quality characterization or storytelling purposes, people just need to take a break. I'm sure there were some in the writers room that thought, hey let's reconcile them for the finale... but then realized what's the point? They can achieve a far better reconciliation in s5. A rushed reunion in s4 wouldn't be inspiring, it would just drain whatever reserves of energy they had left.

I love O/F as characters and as a couple, but why would I want to see them rushed through a reconciliation just to fix the stupid of the last 2 seasons? We got that last year and in the end it provided no long term effects. Perhaps they are trying a different tactic this year. One can only hope they are learning from their missteps. In the end, I'm glad to see that it has fallen to the backburner, because I think both the writers and myself needed a little space.

[Ang]

4 hours ago, Carrie Ann said:

I agree. There was buildup to something happening, and then...nothing. It really makes me feel like the initial plan was to end with reconciliation, and that plan was scrapped pretty late for some reason. My hope is that MG and WM were thinking ahead to S5 and at the last minute decided they wanted to write a getting-back-together arc for O/F then, rather than wrap it up this season when there was so much other stuff going on.

*please please please don't let the reconciliation happen off screen over the summer*

[Password]

I honestly think the writers just ran out of time. Many filler episodes between 8 and 15 and 4 episodes to deal with the break up and aftermath wasn't enough to bring them together in a believable way. Then 3 days (episodes) in show time to deal with Dhark.

I said at the end of episode 8 that I preferred the time line where the truth was out (even though everyone died) and I stand by that. As contrived as the baby mama drama was at least then they would've had a chance to take more steps toward rebuilding Oliver and Felicity's relationship. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Password

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Password said:

I said at the end of episode 8 that I preferred the time line where the truth was out (even though everyone died) and I stand by that. As contrived as the baby mama drama was at least then they would've had a chance to take more steps toward rebuilding Oliver and Felicity's relationship. 

Co-sign. And that scenario only has Oliver quiet and in shock for like half a day which would be completely forgivable in my book. If that had happened, we never would have known he would keep everything secret for months.

Plus, while I still stand by Felicity not breaking up with him in the original timeline, even if they had, they could have actually started slowly coming back together around the time Felicity called it quits here. The kid still gets kidnapped because Malcolm finds out about him since he's Malcolm, Felicity comes back to help get him back, they actually TALK and voila, it's episode 15 and you still have eight episodes until the end of the season to do something with them.

[Chaser]

I was thinking about the Laurel and Sara relationship and that finale 'I love you' to Oliver tainted more than I realized.

When Laurel went to Sara after that dinner from hell and she told her that she had drowned on that boat with her....I'm not so sure about that. Laurel in the 3.14 flashbacks was perfectly adjusted and put together. Same as the pilot IIRC. Hindsight makes it seem like she really was mad that Sara was with 'her man' again.

Nothing about the Laurel and Sara relationship really struck a chord with me. They seemed more in competition with each other and their relationship only worked as long as they pretended half their history never happened. I could believe they moved past everything if they had an actually conversation acknowledging their problems.

[Thundercatmary]

The whole thing, Laurels death bed I love you, makes her looks very manipulative and really taints a lot of her relationships and past behavior imo. I just see everything she did in a different light, either the writers didn't really think that line through or they just didn't care. 

[wonderwall]

10 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

The whole thing, Laurels death bed I love you, makes her looks very manipulative and really taints a lot of her relationships and past behavior imo. I just see everything she did in a different light, either the writers didn't really think that line through or they just didn't care. 

I literally think KC/MG had a talk where KC told MG that she thinks Oliver is the love of Laurel's life, MG disagreed & asked her to explain (this much has been confirmed by KC), and an argument probably ensued. I say argument because Laurel's death bed I love you was the most half assed thing ever. It seemed like MG just gave up trying to reason with her,  looked at the most recent interview KC has done and lifted what she said verbatim knowing it would make her character look incredibly pathetic and knowing that critics were going to hate it too.

[AyChihuahua]

9 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

That's true, I forgot about it. People from TVLine and Chris Hayner on Twitter were very hard on Oliver for that. Way, way more than the fans.

Chris Hayner bitch-slapped Oliver. He had a running gag about all the other people who knew before Felicity. It was FABULOUS. One of the several reasons I love Chris Hayner.

[AyChihuahua]

10 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

 I don't think they'll be giving them other love interests tho I get the concern since it's not like they haven't done dumb stuff no one expected them to like the lie about the kid.

Just for the record, I called the lie about the kid. I even called the time travel in that episode.

The trick is to pick the worst/dumbest thing the writers could possibly do, and predict that.

[AyChihuahua]

8 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I would add:

•  Having to write 3 or 4 present time scenes every episode in a certain way, that makes those scenes end in a place that allows for transition into flashbacks. This imo is one of biggest things not allowing scenes to breathe -- they can't, because they need to end abruptly for the transition to the flashbacks to work.

The flashbacks ruin everything. They're worse than Barry.

That is a very interesting insight.

Sorry about the multiple posts. I thought the site would merge them.

Edited June 9, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Just for the record, I called the lie about the kid. I even called the time travel in that episode.

The trick is to pick the worst/dumbest thing the writers could possibly do, and predict that.

It took me a full on minute to figure out what the hell you were talking about. Time Travel? That never happened on Arroooooohh!  LOL

I don't think there will be permanent or long-term relationships for Oliver or Felicity  (long-term being most of the season). I can see them doing temp relationships 2-3 episodes or  having the characters talk about Oliver or Felicity going on dates with other people. 

I don't want it, in fact it fills me with annoyance just thinking about. They already did the temp LI to delay the pairing in both S2 and S3...give it a rest.  Plus at this point, Olicity has gone too far to throw alternate people in as romantic roadblocks.

IF they go that route Olicity runs the risk of turning into Ross/Rachel, a pairing i initially enjoyed but became toxic and annoying. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Thundercatmary]

The thing is, re watching 4A and Olicity was very fun and enjoyable to watch together, it doesn't always have to go the back and forth unresolved route.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I literally think KC/MG had a talk where KC told MG that she thinks Oliver is the love of Laurel's life, MG disagreed & asked her to explain (this much has been confirmed by KC), and an argument probably ensued. I say argument because Laurel's death bed I love you was the most half assed thing ever. It seemed like MG just gave up trying to reason with her,  looked at the most recent interview KC has done and lifted what she said verbatim knowing it would make her character look incredibly pathetic and knowing that critics were going to hate it too.

I can imagine MG/WM in their heads, being like this is the stupidest thing to do with LL's character & a horrible way to send her out (and they should now since they've done a lot of dumb/horrible things to LL). But KC probably just sat there groveling & throwing a tantrum, and they were like well alright if it makes you better, like when you give candy to a toddler. Sometimes stupid can't be saved or stopped. Sometimes people want to stand in front of moving trains and nothing is going to stop them. Cheers KC, you managed to screw LL over until the last possible moment. It's pathetic all around, but that I guess is Arrow's & KC's legacy to LL/BC.

[TimetravellingBW]

5 hours ago, Chaser said:

I was thinking about the Laurel and Sara relationship and that finale 'I love you' to Oliver tainted more than I realized.

When Laurel went to Sara after that dinner from hell and she told her that she had drowned on that boat with her....I'm not so sure about that. Laurel in the 3.14 flashbacks was perfectly adjusted and put together. Same as the pilot IIRC. Hindsight makes it seem like she really was mad that Sara was with 'her man' again.

 

3 hours ago, Thundercatmary said:

The whole thing, Laurels death bed I love you, makes her looks very manipulative and really taints a lot of her relationships and past behavior imo. I just see everything she did in a different light, either the writers didn't really think that line through or they just didn't care. 

It's pretty sad that Laurel's whole character has ended up being defined by a last minute retcon pining for Oliver. Trouble is LL's actions and motivation have always been so illogical, that reading everything as being motivated by Oliver can actually explain a ton of stuff: 

I hadn't thought about how her confession harmed her relationship with Sara, but it absolutely puts her hatred of Sara returning in a much worse light. LL was happy to hallucinate Sara when she thought she was dead, but the moment Sara came back and LL realised she was still close to Oliver that's when she broke. And given LL didn't apologise to Sara until after Oliver called her out, it makes it look like she did that partly to get back into Oliver's good graces. Her happiness about Sara returning with Nyssa to the League, is even more cringeworthy now. (Especially Sara's comment that "Oliver needs you" before she left, did Laurel take that as "ok you can have him back now sis. All yours!")

And then there's her "friendship" with Felicity. Aside from KC always playing LL looking at Felicity like she's dirt on the bottom of her shoe in early seasons, there's also the infamous "fire her and make me your secretary" scene. Before that could be brushed off as her being drunk and in a tough place. Now, was Laurel thinking all along that Felicity stole her man? Was Laurel hoping she could replace Felicity as Oliver's partner? The scene when she first enters the lair and dismisses Diggle and Felicity like she's lady of the manor, seriously suggests she'd like to kick them out permantly and become Oliver's #1 again.

Plus her journey becoming the BC was so nonsensical, that the explanation that she did it to be part of Oliver's super special club - rather than because of Sara or to help people - actually makes more sense. (And/or that she thought role playing Sara would win him back.) 

That all raises the uncomfortable question of would Laurel have ever made a more active move to get Oliver back? She can say she hopes he and Felicity get back together all she wants, but no normal person voluntarily hangs around someone they love that much without hoping. Was she biding her time after Felicity broke up with him? After a few months would she rustle up another fireplace picnic for the two of them? What if Oliver had ever been drunk or injured or just miserable, and came onto her? Would she be tempted? 

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I literally think KC/MG had a talk where KC told MG that she thinks Oliver is the love of Laurel's life, MG disagreed & asked her to explain (this much has been confirmed by KC), and an argument probably ensued. I say argument because Laurel's death bed I love you was the most half assed thing ever. It seemed like MG just gave up trying to reason with her,  looked at the most recent interview KC has done and lifted what she said verbatim knowing it would make her character look incredibly pathetic and knowing that critics were going to hate it too.

The half hearted L/O bone does suggest MG was doing it as a token for KC. He hasn't mentioned a future for L/O in years. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, TimetravellingBW said:

 

The half hearted L/O bone does suggest MG was doing it as a token for KC. He hasn't mentioned a future for L/O in years. 

KC literally stated that he disagreed so... yeah, definitely a token for KC (KC-service) considering how half assed her death bed speech to Oliver was.

[wonderwall]

Keto always writes LL the best... And you can tell she had nothing to do with that speech which means she didn't even want to touch LL saying she loves Oliver with a ten foot pole... Showing how even the best LL writer disagreed with KC

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

KC literally stated that he disagreed so... yeah, definitely a token for KC (KC-service) considering how half assed her death bed speech to Oliver was.

I don't have the source for this, so I might be misremembering, but I think someone who was at the panel clarified that KC said MG's response to her saying that she thought Oliver was LL's soulmate was "Hmm... Interesting." 

[TimetravellingBW]

"Hmmm interesting" being the response every teacher ever gives to a student who just gave a terrible suggestion in class. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, lemotomato said:

I don't have the source for this, so I might be misremembering, but I think someone who was at the panel clarified that KC said MG's response to her saying that she thought Oliver was LL's soulmate was "Hmm... Interesting." 

I sort of equated the "hmm interesting" to him not agreeing with her. I know to some it might've sparked something in MG to write Laurel's last words that way, but to me it means that MG never really thought of that and there's a reason why he didn't believe it. 

And if I remember, he did ask KC to explain why she thought so... I wonder what she told him. Do you think it boiled down to "because comics"? 

[TimetravellingBW]

Or was she blatantly honest and said it was to prop her own career: support from comics crowd, prominence in the media, more links to comics BC/GA etc. (I remember a few weeks back there was a long discussion about how LL being in love with Oliver would prop KC). Because the decision certainly wasn't to help Laurel's character. I do want to know how she persuaded him though. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[looptab]

12 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Keto always writes LL the best... And you can tell she had nothing to do with that speech which means she didn't even want to touch LL saying she loves Oliver with a ten foot pole... Showing how even the best LL writer disagreed with KC

Well, she wrote a version of Laurel that had nothing to do with the Laurel of the other episodes - she might be the one who put the basis for Saint Laurel - but I still found LL obnoxious, even in Keto'episodes - probably even more so :)

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

I sort of equated the "hmm interesting" to him not agreeing with her. I know to some it might've sparked something in MG to write Laurel's last words that way, but to me it means that MG never really thought of that and there's a reason why he didn't believe it. 

And if I remember, he did ask KC to explain why she thought so... I wonder what she told him. Do you think it boiled down to "because comics"? 

I have an even harsher interpretation of "hmm interesting" because that's how I respond when the person I'm talking to says something batshit crazy and I want to change the subject/not get into an argument. I forgot that MG apparently asked her to elaborate her thoughts. 

And yeah, I'm guessing it boiled down to "because comics" since that's what she uses as the reason for everything else :P

Edited June 9, 2016 by lemotomato

[TimetravellingBW]

1 hour ago, EmilyBettFan said:

She's totally using the because comics excuse and fan wise also. She's using the haters of the show/Olicity and Felicity herself. 

She's the biggest flip flopper I've ever seen in the fandoms I've been in. 

You don't go from being Oliver's love interest to being all about "girl power" to then being all about Oliver again, if you haven't heard from certain comic fans that GA/BC should be together. It's completely transparent. She's using this stuff at cons and on social media with those  incredible rude things she's liking from haters of Arrow.

Funny they preach about only one thing (some of her fans) being BC and how she's above all things Arrow. These certain fans have either been only about her or had never come out of the wood work until she died to advocate for her. It's all just laughable. That these are the people who say Felicity fans are being fanserviced.

 

8 minutes ago, looptab said:

Honestly, I don't feel like blaming her for this. She is getting unprecedented support and I think it's smart that she plays to this crowd, considering that, as far as we know, cons are her only source of income at the moment.

Of course, I talso hink she could be smarter about it, in that she should be careful to acknowledge the fans that support her while smashing the show and her former co-workers.

I certainly don't blame KC for capitalizing on fan support and playing up the comics angle, this is her career and obviously she's got to take care of herself. And she's probably not feeling too charitable towards the show considering they fired her. But I do feel she's treading a fine line between supporting herself and not totally throwing the show and her character to the wolves.

Imo she pushed the whole O/L angle too far with too little reward. It was worth trying to resurrect Lauriver while she was still a regular, but when she knew she was being written off it was a lost cause. Pushing the writers into effectively giving her the final gift of the deathbed confession and Lauriver flashbacks has primarily resulted in anger from the majority of the fanbase - both her fans and detractors. Plus it shit all over her character - and by all accounts she was really excited to be playing Laurel and the Black Canary, but has now been the biggest proponent in tarnishing her legacy. (Also, a lot of actors do have genuine affection for their characters and want them to feel authentic with actions that are true to them. Stephen and Emily have both alluded to things they didn't feel suited their characters, while KC deliberately pushed writing that made Laurel look worse). And MG's "hmmm....interesting reaction" implies she would have had to override a lot of writers resistance to get that final O/L focus. 

I get that the payoff was gaining support from Lauriver and comics fans, but they would have supported her and been outraged at her death anyway. (And are among those most annoyed by Laurel's final portrayal). And yes, pushing O/L gains her more prominence/validity in the wider Black Canary/Green Arrow comics industry and the character of the Black Canary, but did those last episode flashbacks and her own headcanon really help that much? She's still the  DC TV Black Canary, with or without Oliver. They still had the Oliver/Laurel pairing in S1 that counts her as Green Arrow's Love Interest. And there's no chance she'll be in the running if they ever have a movie version of Black Canary. (Seriously if they didn't cast Stephen or Grant who actually succeeded in their roles, then they're certainly not casting Katie Cassidy as big screen BC). So it seems like a minimal gain.

Idk, catering to fans with "I'm sad Laurel's dead too" and emphasizing the Black Canary role is one thing, but the extent she goes to promote L/O and undermine her co-workers seems like it loses her more than it gains. I can hardly imagine it's going to foster good relationships with the remaining cast and writers, which could impact chances to come back as Black Siren/flashbacks etc.

[tv echo]

11 hours ago, Thundercatmary said:

The whole thing, Laurels death bed I love you, makes her looks very manipulative and really taints a lot of her relationships and past behavior imo. I just see everything she did in a different light, either the writers didn't really think that line through or they just didn't care. 

Arrow re-aired 4x01 last night and, watching it, the Laurel scenes can indeed now be seen in a different light. In the Team Arrowless scene, Laurel was the first one to say that they needed to go get help from Oliver.  Then when Laurel and Thea visited Ivy Town, Laurel was pushing hard for Oliver to return with them (remember the "in your bones" speech?). Thea basically just followed her lead (as usual).

Before, those scenes could be viewed as Laurel being the rational, level-headed one who realized the team needed help from Oliver, in contrast to the still resentful Diggle. 

Now, those scenes could be viewed as Laurel jumping on the chance and using the opportunity to bring Oliver back into her orbit and her life. Also, bringing Thea along would be really all the incentive that Oliver would need - how could he ever refuse his sister?

In terms of the deathbed love confession scene, most media reviews I've read that are critical of that scene are blaming the writers for forcing Laurel to endorse Olicity while declaring her own love for him.  Most likely, the intent of that scene was to show how noble and unselfish Laurel was by wishing happiness for Oliver with another woman, despite her own love for him, and to add some poignancy and pathos to the confession that would haunt Oliver.

Edited June 9, 2016 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think pushing for a role that wasn't there for her character anymore while on the show didn't turn out well for her. I'm not saying she was fired for it but that maybe if she found a way to make her character relevant to the show within the limits of the story they were telling instead of pushing for the LI role they could have considered her role not expendable.

Now it doesn't matter anymore since Laurel was killed off but I'd say as a general rule, unless you are Angelina Jolie, it's better to give the impression to be professional and a team player beyond any doubt.

[TimetravellingBW]

9 hours ago, tv echo said:

Now, those scenes could be viewed as Laurel jumping on the chance and using the opportunity to bring Oliver back into her orbit and her life. Also, bringing Thea along would be really all the incentive that Oliver would need - how could he ever refuse his sister?

In terms of the deathbed love confession scene, most media reviews I've read that are critical of that scene are blaming the writers for forcing Laurel to endorse Olicity while declaring her own love for him.  Most likely, the intent of that scene was to show how noble and unselfish Laurel was by wishing happiness for Oliver with another woman, despite her own love for him, and to add some poignancy and pathos to the confession that would haunt Oliver.

Given how Laurel has used Thea for her own agenda before (hey I'm taking you on a spa weekend!) it's not a stretch to believe she's used Thea to stay close to Oliver in in general. What better way to stay connected to your man than hang out with the little sister he adores? My best friends brother is tried and true approach.

So many critics have blamed the writers for making Laurel prop up Olicity in her deathbed confession, but I've said before the "I'm really happy/hope you get back together" line was to benefit Laurel not Olicity. Having Laurel confess her love to Oliver without mentioning Felicity makes her 100% look like she's scheming to get him back and has been hanging around waiting for the chance and doesn't care about her "friend". The Olicity line at least makes her look selfless and noble, even if we're side eyeing it.

Basically KC (somehow) badgered the writers into the love confession, they did damage control so it didn't totally destroy her character and now they and Olicity fans are getting flack for making Laurel's death "all about Felicity." Great.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[dtissagirl]

At this point I'm just super glad Laurel didn't have time to single white female Felicity they way she did Sara.

[kismet]

It would have been kinda funny though if LL all of the sudden had started wearing glasses or pilfering short dresses from the loft.

I'm glad it did happen. But can you imagine LL trying to explain why she is now carrying around tablets and wearing glasses? The glasses would probably help her eyelashes pop more. She did seem very eager to be on/near the computers in every Lair scene that did not have FS in it.

Edited June 9, 2016 by kismet

[TimetravellingBW]

Now I'm just imagining Laurel rocking up in Season 5 with glasses and a ponytail announcing she's taken some evening IT classes and is totally a computer hacker now.

@kismet Clearly great minds think alike :)

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

At this point I'm just super glad Laurel didn't have time to single white female Felicity they way she did Sara.

Suddenly, this BTS photo KC posted doesn't seem as benign anymore:

And remember the story KC told at a con either during season 2 or right afterwards, of sneaking into the makeup trailer and trying on CL's Canary mask? Hmmmm....

[TimetravellingBW]

And there were her comments about Laurel  seeing Felicity as a role model and picking up her computer skills from watching her... 

[dtissagirl]

42 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Suddenly, this BTS photo KC posted doesn't seem as benign anymore:

And remember the story KC told at a con either during season 2 or right afterwards, of sneaking into the makeup trailer and trying on CL's Canary mask? Hmmmm....

Hahaha, oh man. And here was I thinking Laurel was only creepy for the shit she pulled to become Sara. THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A PATTERN. If she lived she could totally become the unsub on a tv procedural cold open.