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Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread


quarks
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Honestly, I would probably look back at cheating even on a grandiose scale as a better, simpler time too. Compared to a present which included a league of assassins, magic, and evil on a truly epic scale. Ollie wouldn't look too bad to me then, because I would imagine you would at least feel in control then. Like, you might have put yourself in this position, but you can also step away if you choose to. There isn't the helpless feeling that comes with the things they face now.

She romanticized the past because things got so much worse. 

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Oliver and Laurel brought out the worst in each other and it was shown in many occasion during the show. This is what I have always felt, but I know there are people who see it as a tragic love story so I guess it all depends on your POV. I think the writers picked a lane and wrote Laurel in a way that is the least appealing to me and probably the most to other type of fans, but true to who she was.

Late to the party, but totally agree Laurel's deathbed confession and the flashbacks put her character in the worst context possible.

On the plus side it does answer the eternal question of why Laurel stayed friends with her douchebag ex for so long. Because normally people just don't do that. You might cling to high school friends because a long-term/lifelong friendship is worth preserving - but not with a toxic fallout like Laurel and Oliver's. You send them a Christmas card, not make a nightly vigilante club together. I could never buy why Laurel wanted to see Oliver daily (he was clearly motivated by guilt and later did want her to just go away Laurel.)  But if she was pining for him that at least justifies her butting in all the time. 

Unfortunately, as others have said that explanation made her look like a doormat. I mean since barging into Team Arrow she's watched him fall in love with, buy a house with, propose to and pine after Felicity. Night after night after night. Why would you put yourself through that? Why didn't she get a new job and move away? Join Barry's team? Go to vigilante in another city? Head off with Sara? Her confession wasn't just "I still love you", it was "you're the love of my life."  Either her life plan was to stick around watching Oliver and Felicity raise their future batch of genius archers, or she was actively plotting to get Oliver back. Both options make her look terrible. Why writers why? 

Edited by TimetravellingBW
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I have to give KC credit for consistency, though. Despite whatever the EPs and SA said to the contrary, no matter what was actually written into the show, she maintained that LL loved Oliver and played her that way from the pilot until the moment LL died. And while that answers why there was such an awkward dynamic in the O/L scenes, especially from season 2 onward (SA's NoTP face), it makes me wonder if KC herself thought that if she stuck around long enough,  and kept trying to sell her headcanon, the show would eventually circle back to O/L. Her panel at the con today makes me think she held on to what happened in comics more than what actually happened on the show.

I'm also really really glad we'll never have to find out.

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Yes, if nothing else you have to admire KC's resilience in sticking with her Laurel/Oliver love story despite everyone else - from the media to the directors to the wardrobe department probably - telling her otherwise. But that does explain why SA/Oliver seem to give off such defensive vibes during their scenes: He was probably trying to counteract her interpretation. Initially KC's headcanon might have been an attempt to get back her main love story, but why she's sticking with it now LL is dead - who knows. 

agree with @Thundercatmary about it making LL seem false. Even if Laurel is the nicest, more selfless person  on earth concerning past relationships  - and her reaction to Oliver and Sara's returns show she's clearly not - it's hard to believe she could hang out with Oliver everyday and not hope for something to happen. Yes she told Oliver she hoped he and Felicity would get back together - but that's undermined by the fact she carried that freaking photo with her everyday.  The scene just reads as "Well, I'll give it a shot and maybe he'll fall back into my arms. If not, I'll just say I hope he and Felicity work out to save face." 

Edited by TimetravellingBW
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On a slight, and, I will be the first to admit, completely unfair tangent:

1. Season 1 - Oliver finally hooks up with Laurel. 500+ innocent people almost immediately die.

2. Season 2 - Oliver decides not to go after Laurel, realizes he's in love with Felicity, but doesn't ask her out. An uncertain number of people, including innocent bystanders, die. 

2. Season 3 - Oliver finally hooks up with Felicity. Team Arrow stops the LoA from poisoning Star City. Ra's Al Ghul and various goons die.

3. Season 4 - Oliver and Felicity break up. About 20,000-30,000 innocent people die.

Conclusion: when Oliver and Felicity don't bang, innocent people die.

(Ok, yes, this is more than a bit of a stretch.)

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23 minutes ago, quarks said:

On a slight, and, I will be the first to admit, completely unfair tangent:

1. Season 1 - Oliver finally hooks up with Laurel. 500+ innocent people almost immediately die.

2. Season 2 - Oliver decides not to go after Laurel, realizes he's in love with Felicity, but doesn't ask her out. An uncertain number of people, including innocent bystanders, die. 

2. Season 3 - Oliver finally hooks up with Felicity. Team Arrow stops the LoA from poisoning Star City. Ra's Al Ghul and various goons die.

3. Season 4 - Oliver and Felicity break up. About 20,000-30,000 innocent people die.

Conclusion: when Oliver and Felicity don't bang, innocent people die.

(Ok, yes, this is more than a bit of a stretch.)

I mean, not to completely support the tangent or anything, but, as we have pointed out before, after they had a fight in 408 that threatened trouble in their relationship in the original timeline, Vandal Savage did disintegrate an entire city, including the team, so like 500K+ people instantly dying right there. The correlation is sound ;) If some people can draw conclusions from what they watch in one way, I should be allowed to do it my way as well.

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57 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Initially KC's headcanon might have been an attempt to get back her main love story, but why she's sticking with it now LL is dead - who knows. 

KC benefits from sticking with her BC/GA 4 Eva headcanon because while LL is dead dead dead on the show, she lives on in comics, and there's still a good deal of support for BC/GA in that realm. 

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Totally. I said it in the BTS thread as well, but she's playing it very smart. She must be aware of the 'because comics' contingent and saying stuff like that will gain her  even more support.

There's also the subtext of 'Look, she cares about the comics, the creators don't'. Though I seem to remember that she said she didn't read the comics? So her knowledge and care and respect for them must be limited to 'BC is with GA. She wears leather'.

Edited by looptab
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"And BC trains with GA in the comics" because that was her reasoning for wanting more sparring scenes with SA on the show. 

Ironic that she suddenly loves the comics so much, given this post  about how the WB doesn't want her name associated with BC merchandise anymore.

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28 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

"And BC trains with GA in the comics" because that was her reasoning for wanting more sparring scenes with SA on the show. 

Ironic that she suddenly loves the comics so much, given this post  about how the WB doesn't want her name associated with BC merchandise anymore.

IDK if that post is even real tbh... 

But It's sad that KC always wanted to connect Laurel to Oliver in some way/shape/form. While other actors push for their characters to get well written storylines for their characters and hope to not get pushed into the background, KC never pushed for that. All she wanted was that connection to the lead. Laurel never had a chance tbh. 

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I'm less interested in her head canon and more interested in the progression of her thinking. It seems you can track it with the show.

She was still low-key pushing the relationship last summer (S4 is still being mapped out). Then the season started and she was so relieved Laurel wasn't the love interest anymore (Olicity is happy and Oliver wants to propose). Then she went to there is still room for Oliver and Laurel to be together (oh no spawn alert) and finally the current belief (she dead).

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Also KC's comments during S2 that "Felicity might be around as a fling" and "bring it on, Laurel's got this.” (Lauriver is end game). Plus her admitting that the Felicity & Laurel friendship was "not a relationship that she really put too much thought into" before S3.  (Felicity is temporary). But during S3 and S4, it was "Felicity and Laurel are BFFs!!" (Olicity is going full speed ahead).

Seriously, KC wanted/knew Laurel was going to join Team Arrow - so she should have considered Laurel's relationships with other members like Dig and Felicity, not just Oliver. Unless she expected them to disappear the moment Laurel came on board. Which would explain so much about how she played her introduction to Team Arrow. 

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It does make me curious about what the writers and cast members thought about her comments. They're trying to promote Oliver and Felicity and she's like Lauriver for life! 

Or maybe the cast didn't really pay attention to her Lauriver comments.

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KC was always a ride or die chick when it came to Lauriver. You gotta respect her consistency in that regard... She's probably gonna be preaching about Lauriver in the afterlife years from now when she is still working the con lower circuit for $$.

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I don't really blame KC, (I do resent what it seemed to do to the show, IMO as a viewer) but I think breaking into the genre/comic franchises gives some mighty big contracts and steady work, possibly even movie work and lots of exposure and at the very least some regular convention income, if you want to put in the time. I think KC knows the game and is trying to play it very hard.

Holding out for and onto BC, gives her ongoing publicity, if anything comes of that rumour about a big screen version of BC, she might have a shot, or at the very least have her name appear in various articles about it.

Being associated and having comic fan support may also help get other bigger better parts in other movies. Her main swell of support didn't occur, IMO, until she became BC and was, finally, relatively inoffensive because she was just hanging around in the background.

Holding onto BC/GA was a way to hold onto a paying job and try to boost her popularity. Sure she was 2nd billed, but she had been essentially replaced by EBR and most of her role/back-story had been replaced by Sara too. So when you look at the support for EBR/SA and fan content that is generated out of love for the character and actors and Olicity, who wouldn't want that? It's been written that SA's & CH's twitter followers both got them roles (CH/Arrow & SA/TMNT). So if the rumours are true she was under threat on 2 fronts, form both Felicity and Sara, I think she played it quite smart managing hold onto the role for another 2 seasons, by holding out for LL becoming the BC.  Trying to hold out for GA/BC could have helped her keep her job longer if KC could have made it happen.

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7 hours ago, wonderwall said:

IDK if that post is even real tbh... 

But It's sad that KC always wanted to connect Laurel to Oliver in some way/shape/form. While other actors push for their characters to get well written storylines for their characters and hope to not get pushed into the background, KC never pushed for that. All she wanted was that connection to the lead. Laurel never had a chance tbh. 

 I get her mindset, though. All Diggle and Felicity had at one point was their connection to Oliver. Laurel got storylines of her own. The idea of her loomed pretty large in Oliver's life, but actual Laurel wasn't much of a factor. So, everyone lobbied for what they didn't have - EBR and DR wanted stories of their own. KC wanted a connection to Oliver, because Laurel didn't really have one. Granted, she was specific about wanting to be connected with him romantically, but understandably she probably wanted to hang onto what was promised when she signed up, which was likely being the Black Canary, and being the hero's love interest. 

I do think she should've amended those desires as the show went on - clearly she was talking to the EPs about stuff, but...maybe she was trying to The Secret her way into this stuff happening by putting it out there as much as possible. 

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2 hours ago, Genki said:

Holding out for and onto BC, gives her ongoing publicity, if anything comes of that rumour about a big screen version of BC, she might have a shot, or at the very least have her name appear in various articles about it.

Being associated and having comic fan support may also help get other bigger better parts in other movies. Her main swell of support didn't occur, IMO, until she became BC and was, finally, relatively inoffensive because she was just hanging around in the background.

Holding onto BC/GA was a way to hold onto a paying job and try to boost her popularity. Sure she was 2nd billed, but she had been essentially replaced by EBR and most of her role/back-story had been replaced by Sara too.

 

33 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

 I get her mindset, though. All Diggle and Felicity had at one point was their connection to Oliver. Laurel got storylines of her own. The idea of her loomed pretty large in Oliver's life, but actual Laurel wasn't much of a factor. So, everyone lobbied for what they didn't have - EBR and DR wanted stories of their own. KC wanted a connection to Oliver, because Laurel didn't really have one. Granted, she was specific about wanting to be connected with him romantically, but understandably she probably wanted to hang onto what was promised when she signed up, which was likely being the Black Canary, and being the hero's love interest. 

I do think she should've amended those desires as the show went on - clearly she was talking to the EPs about stuff, but...maybe she was trying to The Secret her way into this stuff happening by putting it out there as much as possible. 

Yeah I guess I can't really blame KC for trying to hold onto her role in the show and grow her fanbase. I just wish now that Lauriver is clearly never going to happen, she'd emphasize her role as Black Canary rather than Oliver' Queen's Love Interest. Because those are two separate things. Losing the Love Interest status doesn't mean she loses the Superhero status. Talking up the Black Canary, maybe referring to specific links, characteristics and aspects she drew on from the comics would feed that comic fanbase, and not damage what's left of her TV character.

Obviously all the actors influence things about their characters when they can: EBR pushed for Felicity to keep her glasses and has been vocal about having a happier and funnier Felicity back in S4. SA tried to avoid the outright lying about BMD, and twisted it to a lie of omission instead. DR wants more OTA time. I guess the contrast is, all those changes have positive impacts on their characters - and say something about how well the actors know their characters - while KC's priorities seems to make Laurel look worse.  But then this is business and I guess romance and shipping trumps all for fan attention. She probably knows what she's doing.

Edited by TimetravellingBW
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12 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

 

Yeah I guess I can't really blame KC for trying to hold onto her role in the show and grow her fanbase. I just wish now that Lauriver is clearly never going to happen, she'd emphasize her role as Black Canary rather than Oliver' Queen's Love Interest. Because those are two separate things. Losing the Love Interest status doesn't mean she loses the Superhero status. 

Yes, but she'd have to let go of her desire for Laurel to be Oliver's love interest, and she clearly can't do that. I think she kept talking about it, hoping to get a groundswell of fan support (more than she had) that would change the direction of the show. And since her headcanon actually got written in (yuck), there isn't any point to letting it go now. 

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3 hours ago, looptab said:

I had forgotten her comments about the love interest stuff. Makes me curious on when her convo with MG took place, :D

She said it took place at the beginning of Season 4. And that by the way was when MG was writing Oliver being so in love with Felicity he wanted to marry her after 5 months of relationship, LOL. I imagine his surprise when she went to him to talk about O/L...."who?"

I think she wanted so much to be the LI because that would have meant for her being the leading lady on screen and not only on paper but maybe if she focused on making LL a stronger, independent woman she would have gotten more results since it was obvious anyway that the opportunity to be Oliver's LI for her was gone, gone, gone. 

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1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Yes, but she'd have to let go of her desire for Laurel to be Oliver's love interest, and she clearly can't do that. I think she kept talking about it, hoping to get a groundswell of fan support (more than she had) that would change the direction of the show. And since her headcanon actually got written in (yuck), there isn't any point to letting it go now. 

On that note I wonder what KC though - or if she was aware of - the backlash about LL's deathbed confession. Especially as that backlash came mostly from her own fans who saw it as hurting LL's character, while Olicity and already anti-LL fans shrugged and went  "well that proves all our claims about her being a badly written character."

Regrading the whole "I'm glad you found Felicity/hope you get back together" part of Laurel's speech. Although it's the line her fans are most annoyed with - and the bit KC probably didn't care about - imo it's the only bit of her declaration that puts Laurel in an ok light. Without it, Laurel is just "Felicity who? Wanna give it another shot?" Although it's still easy to interpret it as Laurel trying to get Oliver back, the Olicity line does at least paint her as more of a noble, tragic hero and less of a schemer trying to get her ex back. Still a sad woman, but at least not delusional and bitter. Imo, the line was less to prop Olicity - at this point Olicity does not need propping from Laurel - and more to salvage Laurel's character. 

Basically if the writers gave into KC's head canon they had to have Laurel mention O/F, otherwise it would make Laurel look even worse. 

Edited by TimetravellingBW
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1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

She said it took place at the beginning of Season 4.

Yeah, but did it happen before or after those comments? That's what I'd like to know.:) Like, one would think before, and that's why she started going on and on about being happy of not being just a love interest. But then comes January (or whenever that IGN interview was) and she's going on again about soulmates. I need a timeline! LOL

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I figure at some point late S3-early S4 she realized that becoming Black Canary didn't actually come with her getting the A-plot back. Buckles was a background player for most of 3B, and even resurrecting Sara still didn't result in lots of A-plot time. 403 is OTA-centric, 404 is Lance-centric, only 405 gave Laurel more to do. Then she faded into the background again until she finally got the A-plot so she could die.

It is a little bit hilarious that while sure, being Love Interest does give Felicity a lot of A-plot screen time because she gets to interact with Oliver [who lives in A-plot land 95% of the time], but HACKER is what makes Felicity essential to the A-plot. She performs a function in the team [and the A plot] that was embedded into the m.o. of the main action.

So, basically, if KC really wanted the A-plot after Black Canary failed to achieve it, she needed to be Curtis Holt, not Love Interest.

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21 minutes ago, looptab said:

Yeah, but did it happen before or after those comments? That's what I'd like to know.:) Like, one would think before, and that's why she started going on and on about being happy of not being just a love interest. But then comes January (or whenever that IGN interview was) and she's going on again about soulmates. I need a timeline! LOL

There's always the next con to ask ;)

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1 hour ago, looptab said:

Yeah, but did it happen before or after those comments? That's what I'd like to know.:) Like, one would think before, and that's why she started going on and on about being happy of not being just a love interest. But then comes January (or whenever that IGN interview was) and she's going on again about soulmates. I need a timeline! LOL

The IGN interview actually happened in November (11/18, to be precise. Not sure which episode they were filming at the time, I'm guessing 4x12, since they were at the PT set.) The reporter had tweeted about his set visit at the time. For some reason, it didn't get published until February.

Edited by lemotomato
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9 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The IGN interview actually happened in November (11/18, to be precise. Not sure which episode they were filming at the time, I'm guessing 4x12, since they were at the PT set.) The reporter had tweeted about his set visit at the time. For some reason, it didn't get published until February.

Right!, Thank you. I remembered there was a gap between when it actually happened and when it was published, but couldn't remember the details. Well, that makes her comment even more ambiguous - was it the beginning of the season for her, as in when she started shooting, or for us?

I'm inclined to think it was after they shot the crossover and the kid was introduced. I do believe she was trying to pitch a triangle, and that must have looked like an opening.

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7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Yes. Then again, didn't she say she only read her parts of the script? She wasn't there for that scene so she probably just scanned the page.

Every time this pops up I just go bzuuuh?  I sort of get not giving a fuck to scenes she's not in while reading the script, but table reads! Does she completely zone out when she's not in a scene while the others are reading?

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I only remember KC admitting that she doesn't read the flashbacks part of the script. Although if she really only reads her parts, it explains why she's been able to hold onto her headcanons for so long when they've been completely different from what the show has been trying to convey.

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Even if Laurel had gotten back together with Oliver, it doesn't change the anti-chemistry. I do wonder if actors know when they don't click. Beyond whether they like each other or not off-screen, is there an awareness when it's NOT working on-screen? Is there any way to fix that? I can think of times when I'm changed my mind about a character, but I can't recall changing my feelings about a pairing. 

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SA was definitely aware had no chemistry with KC. As soon as another option appeared when Felicity showed up he seemed to grab onto it.I don't think KC cares about the chemistry or how that relationship makes Laurel look, she just wanted to be LI imo because it meant that she gets to be female lead.

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I have a feeling that Steve not only is painfully aware of the black hole of chemistry, but that he puts it on himself more than on anyone else. And that having another option offered him a way to provide a solution to the producers. It's not like he could magically turn the chemistry with KC around, but here's an alternative! He could have sizzling chem onscreen with somebody else.

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KC was aware. She made that comment about being uncomfortable kissing married men. She also talked about how SA had to learn to work with her (cause she was so method or something). Those were at early Cons. I took those comments as her trying to explain the anti-chemistry.

I have a theory that SA has to click with the person off screen in order to work with them on. Which is why I'm curious about him and Megan Fox.

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So you think that wasn't the cause of the bad chem on her end, but rather her excuse for it? (I can see that, esp since that dude she kissed on Harper's Island was married with like twelve kids and she didn't seem to have a problem with that.)

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1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

So you think that wasn't the cause of the bad chem on her end, but rather her excuse for it? (I can see that, esp since that dude she kissed on Harper's Island was married with like twelve kids and she didn't seem to have a problem with that.)

I have always read it like that. 

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Oh I don't believe she has a problem kissing married actors on screen at all. I think she was throwing that out there because the bad chemistry was being blamed on her (rather unfairly in my opinion - it takes two to have chemistry).

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2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

The IGN interview actually happened in November (11/18, to be precise. Not sure which episode they were filming at the time, I'm guessing 4x12, since they were at the PT set.) The reporter had tweeted about his set visit at the time. For some reason, it didn't get published until February.

pretty sure he held onto the interview until right before the episode aired since most of the talk centered around 412 and back half of S4

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I have to wonder though, if she had let her desire to be be the LI die a little and not pushed so hard if she might have been spared an actual death. She might have just faded in the background or gone the way of Roy. But her insistence to have GA/BC together romantically, I think bought her a one-way ticket to the grave - with no hope of a return ticket. And although she's got some pretty heavy handed verbal hero worship - the writers also made sure to pretty much throw her character under the bus with the last few actual on-screen scenes. When the LI ship set sail in another direction, she should have focused on making LL the kick-ass female warrior that comic readers say BC is, as opposed to focusing so much on one aspect of the BC comic journey.

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I think there might have been an added factor of her salary.  Yes, she might have faded into the background and been a better supporting character than lead, but they would still be paying her as a lead.  In addition, I always wondered if she had some sort of clause about plot, in the sense that she always had her own independent storyline that was independent of Oliver.

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4 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I have a feeling that Steve not only is painfully aware of the black hole of chemistry, but that he puts it on himself more than on anyone else. And that having another option offered him a way to provide a solution to the producers. It's not like he could magically turn the chemistry with KC around, but here's an alternative! He could have sizzling chem onscreen with somebody else.

 

4 hours ago, Chaser said:

Oh I don't believe she has a problem kissing married actors on screen at all. I think she was throwing that out there because the bad chemistry was being blamed on her (rather unfairly in my opinion - it takes two to have chemistry).

I agree you can blame the bad chemistry on KC, it involved two people and is just one of those things that's happens. SA seems pretty perfectionist about his work and a lot of pressure was on him, so having his lead romance endlessly criticised early on would hit him hard. You can improve aspects of your acting but you can't conjure up chemistry that isn't there.

Difference is he jumped onto Olicity and now no one doubts his ability to play romantic. For KC -yes more time with Oliver/regaining LI means more prominence - but when that was clearly a losing battle, she didn't make an effort with other Love interests. Honestly, your character becoming part of a likeable or popular couple, even if it's just a side romance is a good way to gain popularity. (Roy/Thea is a good example, both of them had a lot of critics but the tenderness in their relationship softened them and won some people over.) That's why people are still talking about Tommy/Laurel even now: most agree the couple had chemistry, made LL more likeable and gave something to root for with her. 

Obvs it's not all on KC, Tommy was killed and Ted Grant fell through - she didn't have much of chance to prove her chemistry with other people. But given how hard she's been pushing O/L, maybe the writers decided a new love interest for her wasn't a priority. When an actress is set on playing romantic with your lead, do you go through the effort of creating and hiring a side character to give her romance? 

(That last bit is total imagination, MG would consider a hundred factors when thinking about giving LL a LI, not just KCs feelings. But I think @kismet's spec that, if KC hadn't clung to the LI bit for so long, she might have been put on a bus but not killed, is interesting. We don't know how much KC's attitude impacted or annoyed the writers.)

Edited by TimetravellingBW
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I thought SA had fine chemistry with all his love interests EXCEPT KC. I'm not saying it was scorching, but overall for me he was fine with every other LI, from Helena through Sara. Also, KC was overall fairly crappy in the role from minute 1, whereas SA was mostly pretty good (I thought he took the wooden thing too far early on, but started improving a lot in 1.3, and he was FANTASTIC at the physical stuff from the start). It was MOSTLY bad writing, but she also played LL as so pissy and snide, but also kind of prim (she did this snotty little superior pursed-lip thing a lot early on), that she was a fail, in both writing and acting, from day 1. Plus, even though she wasn't supposed to be Black Canary until later (even in the original plan), she was always going to suck at that. 

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