Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

I actually see Oliver as way more dependent on having Felicity in his life than the other way around.

[tarotx]

Oliver's much more clingy. Felicity just went dramatic at the lie too fast. That was the only issue with her. The episode was jammed pack so no one had time to breathe. Everything happened too fast.

[dtissagirl]

And the only reason Felicity was being too dramatic was that the writing went full on MELODRAMA, probably for contrast reasons:

 

Timeline 1, Felicity knows the secret + Oliver is lying:

 

If you loved me, if you trusted me, telling me this wouldn't be such a burden-- it would be a relief. But you don't trust me. You never will. And how can I be with someone who doesn't trust me?

 

Timeline 2, Felicity doesn't know Oliver is hiding the kid:

 

Oliver... We have a life together. Right? We're a team. If something is bothering you and I don't know about it, I can't help you fix it. I can't be a good teammate. I love you, and that makes me want to be the best teammate ever.

[way2interested]

Can someone explain to me the notion that Felicity is obsessed/is very clingy with Oliver? In an unhealthy way?

 

Because.................. I don't see it. 

 

I think it may have something to do with the PDA that Oliver and Felicity have with each other (her hanging on his shoulder in 323, 401 and even hanging onto him in this new clip), mixed with some of the questionable lines that they have given Felicity occasionally (the "No...Oliver!" line in 323 to Ray and the "If you loved me" portion of the fight in 408). In a way, especially because we have no insight into Felicity's life outside of the Arrow cave, it seems like Felicity's entire life revolves around Oliver. I do think that Felicity has an extreme concern for Oliver, "clingy" and "obsessive" are rather negative words that pretty much taint their whole relationship. Even if she were the technical definition of "clingy," I don't really believe that it is in an unhealthy sense, at least in Felicity's case. In Oliver's case...that's a bit of a different story.

 

I don't think her relationship with Oliver is unhealthy. I would only think that if she ever compromised her morals or her way of life for the sake of Oliver and only Oliver. 406 even attacked that idea head-on and showed that this relationship is anything but unhealthy and even helps Felicity to find herself.   

[dtissagirl]

Felicity was terrified that she was losing herself in their relationship in 406 -- that's pretty much the opposite of clingy.

[apinknightmare]

Unless we're talking clingy literally, because she does enjoy the touching and I cannot blame her.

[hogwash]

And she was secretly helping the Team in Star City so what clingy?? She's not all about Oliver even though her Palmer Tech storyline is weaksauce (that's not really new).

 

Oliver's much more clingy. Felicity just went dramatic at the lie too fast. That was the only issue with her. The episode was jammed pack so no one had time to breathe. Everything happened too fast.

 

The timeline 1 "breakup" definitely went 0-100. The last time we saw Felicity she was looking at the DNA results. We can fanwank that she worked herself in to a lather thinking about Oliver returning to his S02 or (horrors of horrors) S03 bullshit but eh. 

 

I'm thinking it's so we have a point of reference for the conversation

(breakup?)

 when she really/permanently finds out about William.

[kismet]

I think it may have something to do with the PDA that Oliver and Felicity have with each other (her hanging on his shoulder in 323, 401 and even hanging onto him in this new clip), mixed with some of the questionable lines that they have given Felicity occasionally (the "No...Oliver!" line in 323 to Ray and the "If you loved me" portion of the fight in 408). In a way, especially because we have no insight into Felicity's life outside of the Arrow cave, it seems like Felicity's entire life revolves around Oliver. I do think that Felicity has an extreme concern for Oliver, "clingy" and "obsessive" are rather negative words that pretty much taint their whole relationship. Even if she were the technical definition of "clingy," I don't really believe that it is in an unhealthy sense, at least in Felicity's case. In Oliver's case...that's a bit of a different story.

 

I don't think her relationship with Oliver is unhealthy. I would only think that if she ever compromised her morals or her way of life for the sake of Oliver and only Oliver. 406 even attacked that idea head-on and showed that this relationship is anything but unhealthy and even helps Felicity to find herself.   

I agree with your analysis. Personally, I do not think that FS is clingy or obsessed with OQ. But some of the writing and acting could be interpreted as clingy or obsessed. They literally hang off each other at points, which is physical clingy - but she was the same way with RP, so I think that's just a FS thing.

 

But knowing someone's DNA sequence off the top of their head can be a little obsessive. I get it that she is genius, but people could see that as obsessed. Perhaps the writing could have said I saw matching DNA and put 2 & 2 together. As much as 406 attacked head on the concept that FS was losing herself in the relationship. The fact that she thought it was happening could be perceived by some people as overly clingy/obsessed. That if she became so absorbed in the relationship that she lost her identity, that is also another way people interpret extreme clingy/obsessed GF, that they no longer have a life outside of the guy. 406 dispelled this notion with their conversation, but still the thought was put out there by FS & the writers. 

 

Lastly, whenever the writers are stuck trying to drive a point home, they often use FS as their vessel. Keeping stuff from each other in a committed relationship is not generally a good thing, enter T1 overly dramatic response from FS to the paternity test. We need to show OQ not dying but also falling off a cliff again, have FS overly dramatize a verbal response. Even a lot of her speeches have been I believe in you, which is sweet on the other hand but can be twisted (if people are inclined) that FS over belief in OQ as a hero is an obsession.

 

And let's face it, outside of Curtis & RP - FS hasn't really been shown to have a life outside of OQ & TA. Because the show is limited in time, there is not FS and her casual life when she is not vigilanting or working at her day job. We really know very little about who she is as a person. What are her hobbies, her interests. So people who interpret shows literally, could see that as FS being clingy & obsessed with OQ because everything revolves around him. The one casual thing (cooking) that could have been a hobby was even something the writers gave to OQ. So a lot of FS as a character seems to revolve around OQ, not because that is who is but because logistically the show cannot show every character having their own lives/show outside of OQ. So if those that are inclined to be hypercritical of FS can find ways in the narrative to indicate that she is in an unhealthy obsession with OQ.

 

But when you actually break down the characters, the relationship and the fundamental lack of time on TV shows there is very little substantial evidence to support the notion that the O/F is unhealthy or obsessive, especially on FS's end.

[BkWurm1]

There needs to be a college level course that compares and contrasts the different use of "drama" in 4-08 vs 4-09.  There was more angst packed into 4-09 and yet every moment was earned and felt grounded even when they're  finishing up an interrupted argument while held captive by a super evil dude.  

 

Uh, the heart eyes between this pair.  How can two weeks of television be so vastly different?  I can barely reconcile last week's couple with this week's couple.  Can we send bribes to someone to give WM more clout in making story decisions?   

[bijoux]

Uh, the heart eyes between this pair. 

 

Something like this? Urgh.

 

 

[Sasha]

Ah the heart eyes. I could watch these two all day without hearing a word of dialogue.

[kismet]

I usually hate public prosals, but this couple made it work because like others said, they basically proposed to each other the entire episode.

I'm also okay that it was spontaneous enough that OQ was not an ass for keeping William a secret. Because I do feel like before DD crashed the party he was gonna confess or at least drop a we need to talk about something important. If he had had this calculated & planned proposal either public or private without addressing the secret child I might have been more mad at him than happy. As it stands now I am very happy about the proposal. And the next few months will be so focused on her recovery that I doubt the wedding & marriage stuff will even come up. So it's a lurking secret but I'm less worried about it now than I was last week.

Edited December 11, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

I think part of the problem with MG's 'explanation' is that he must have a blindspot when it comes to BM - just like the EPs had with Ray (not a stalker) and Laurel (only problem is not wearing fishnets yet). Likely, MG's version of BM is a good woman who was victimized by Ollie and Moira as a young girl, and someone who's now a loving and protective mother - also, someone with integrity (never cashed $1M check, worked hard to give her son a home).* So she's justified in the demands she made of Oliver and she's deserving of Oliver's promise and honesty - as equally deserving as Felicity, hence the 'impossible' situation (according to MG).

(* I honestly believe MG just forgot that Moira made a $2M offer and not a $1M offer.)

Unfortunately for MG, that's not the way BM is coming across to viewers and critics. She's coming across as someone who's selfish and unreasonable, even emotionally manipulative and lying - someone who cares more about getting back at Oliver than about her son. (I mean, really, what did she tell or plan to tell William about his father?) And someone who's blamed Oliver for everything and didn't take responsibility for her own involvement with Ollie.

I totally agree with you that they have a blindspot when it comes to the writing of the character. As most of us here have pointed out the writing is just horrible and painting her as less flattering.

But I will also say that I do think OQ owes BM some type of loyalty to a certain degree. If he wants to have a healthy and noncontensious relationship with her moving forward he can't immediately go back on his word to her either. I feel like he is putting his son's best interest at heart by trying to meet the BMs demands. No child profits from having contentious parents. The parents relationship in this case is already so strained that any small thing might be perceived as a big thing. And OQ renigging on his promise without any extenuating circumstances is big.

So as much as I think they are doing a crap job writing BM and have a blindspot, if this scenario was playing out IRL, I would see OQ as in an impossible decision. Either way he betrays at least one person. But I guess the biggest difference is IRL if BM is not a bitch, I never see her making that ultimatum. Most people would not make that ultimatum about not telling anyone, especially not with OQ pleading his case to tell her and just her. Also by not telling FS, he's also not complicit in asking FS to lie as well, so there is that.

When I strip the story of its bad writing and put it in a real life scenario, I feel like OQ owes FS, BM & William some degree of loyalty and that seems to be what he is doing after the time reset. I withhold my right to change my mind if they take this story full tilt soap opera and have OQ going out of his way to lie and deceive FS about the child. But as it stands now I'm not disappointed greatly in OQ because of the extenuating circumstances. But I am HUGELY disappointed that the writers felt they need to create this ultimatum to create drama.

I can only say that with MGs most recent interviews perhaps they will be able to see beyond their blindspot. Like those little mirrors on cars they will see where they are going wrong with BM and fix the course, sooner rather than later. They got RP back on course once they dropped the for drama pretense. LL blindspot and characterization is a lost cause at this point. But I have a feeling the universal critism of BM will help fix this problem sooner than their usual writing curve.

Edited December 11, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I just realized what's the most hilarious part of this bullshit storyline: blood speaks louder to the very rich people on this show.

 

They have ~heirs~ and not kids. So the storyline does back it up that Oliver will do whatever it takes [no matter how dumb] to be a part of his surprise kid's life, pretty much like Malcolm did to be a part of HIS surprise kid's life. I mean, they gave Oliver a whole lot of story about this last season, considering he's the one who started thinking of Malcolm as Thea's daddy, even before Thea herself.

 

This show, man.

[calliope1975]

I just realized what's the most hilarious part of this bullshit storyline: blood speaks louder to the very rich people on this show.

 

They have ~heirs~ and not kids. So the storyline does back it up that Oliver will do whatever it takes [no matter how dumb] to be a part of his surprise kid's life, pretty much like Malcolm did to be a part of HIS surprise kid's life. I mean, they gave Oliver a whole lot of story about this last season, considering he's the one who started thinking of Malcolm as Thea's daddy, even before Thea herself.

 

This show, man.

 

Yeah, it's kind of weird for me in a show that has done such a great job in creating a found family, that blood seems to trump everything. I still have no idea why Thea would ever refer to Malcolm as her dad.

[bijoux]

I still have no idea why Thea would ever refer to Malcolm as her dad.

 

I laughed out loud when she called him her Evil Dad last season. That's pretty much the only dad reference that makes sense in this situation.

[BkWurm1]

But I will also say that I do think OQ owes BM some type of loyalty to a certain degree. If he wants to have a healthy and noncontensious relationship with her moving forward he can't immediately go back on his word to her either. I feel like he is putting his son's best interest at heart by trying to meet the BMs demands. No child profits from having contentious parents. The parents relationship in this case is already so strained that any small thing might be perceived as a big thing. And OQ renigging on his promise without any extenuating circumstances is big.

 

 

See, I already see a contradiction in this logic.  As pointed out, they already have a strained, I'd even say contentious relationship.  BM has stripped Oliver of any agency for 10 years regarding their son and now when he refuses to let her continue to get away with her lie, she's set demands that continue to strip Oliver of any agency.  The extenuating circumstance of Oliver going back on his promise is the requirement being made in the first place. 

 

So as much as I think they are doing a crap job writing BM and have a blindspot, if this scenario was playing out IRL, I would see OQ as in an impossible decision. Either way he betrays at least one person. But I guess the biggest difference is IRL if BM is not a bitch, I never see her making that ultimatum. Most people would not make that ultimatum about not telling anyone, especially not with OQ pleading his case to tell her and just her. Also by not telling FS, he's also not complicit in asking FS to lie as well, so there is that.

 

 

It's true that either way he betrays someone but that's where the question of who is more deserving of loyalty comes in.  Right now the person he is choosing to betray is Felicity.  As for making Felicity complicit in a lie, the weight of this particular lie wouldn't even register.  There is no one she would feel compelled to tell.   No one but Felicity is being hurt by not knowing about the kid (well, William but that's a different conversation)  No one but Felicity is owed the whole truth about what saying 'til death do them part with Oliver really entails. 

 

When I strip the story of its bad writing and put it in a real life scenario, I feel like OQ owes FS, BM & William some degree of loyalty and that seems to be what he is doing after the time reset. I withhold my right to change my mind if they take this story full tilt soap opera and have OQ going out of his way to lie and deceive FS about the child. But as it stands now I'm not disappointed greatly in OQ because of the extenuating circumstances. But I am HUGELY disappointed that the writers felt they need to create this ultimatum to create drama.

 

Oliver does owe BM and William a degree of loyalty.  He should never trash talk her.  He shouldn't try to influence William against his mother.  He should do his best to shield them from harm and dude needs to financially contribute. He also should reasonably try to meet BM's requests.   But keeping a secret that is guaranteed to blow up his life is not reasonable.  But maybe he feels he owes BM his honesty?   Yeah, I'm not buying it. 

 

The basic reality is that Oliver already is and plans to perpetually lie to BM.  He is not planning on ever sharing his life as GA with BM.  She is in the same boat as everyone that isn't in his inner circle. He's deceiving her about who he is on a very basic level.  And he's fine with that.  So any excuse that TPTB might make about him feeling he has to be completely honest with her is bunk.  He doesn't feel bound to give her his complete honesty, but he knows Felicity requires it and more so, he agrees that she deserves it.   And it is in his power to give Felicity the truth without ever compromising his standing in BM's eyes. 

 

It's a no brainer and the show runners trying to spin it as anything else makes my brain hurt. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

See, I already see a contradiction in this logic.  As pointed out, they already have a strained, I'd even say contentious relationship.  BM has stripped Oliver of any agency for 10 years regarding their son and now when he refuses to let her continue to get away with her lie, she's set demands that continue to strip Oliver of any agency.  The extenuating circumstance of Oliver going back on his promise is the requirement being made in the first place. 

 

It's true that either way he betrays someone but that's where the question of who is more deserving of loyalty comes in.  Right now the person he is choosing to betray is Felicity.  As for making Felicity complicit in a lie, the weight of this particular lie wouldn't even register.  There is no one she would feel compelled to tell.   No one but Felicity is being hurt by not knowing about the kid (well, William but that's a different conversation)  No one but Felicity is owed the whole truth about what saying 'til death do them part with Oliver really entails. 

 

Oliver does owe BM and William a degree of loyalty.  He should never trash talk her.  He shouldn't try to influence William against his mother.  He should do his best to shield them from harm and dude needs to financially contribute. He also should reasonably try to meet BM's requests.   But keeping a secret that is guaranteed to blow up his life is not reasonable.  But maybe he feels he owes BM his honesty?   Yeah, I'm not buying it. 

 

The basic reality is that Oliver already is and plans to perpetually lie to BM.  He is not planning on ever sharing his life as GA with BM.  She is in the same boat as everyone that isn't in his inner circle. He's deceiving her about who he is on a very basic level.  And he's fine with that.  So any excuse that TPTB might make about him feeling he has to be completely honest with her is bunk.  He doesn't feel bound to give her his complete honesty, but he knows Felicity requires it and more so, he agrees that she deserves it.   And it is in his power to give Felicity the truth without ever compromising his standing in BM's eyes. 

 

It's a no brainer and the show runners trying to spin it as anything else makes my brain hurt. 

YMMV but I think a lot of your post is speculation. It's a really good post, but its all based on actions that OQ has not done yet. As of now he has told one white lie and appears to have the intention to keep this secret. But we really have no idea where OQ is taking his decision to keep William a secret from everyone, or how long he plans on doing it. But if he tells FS. Then by rights he really should tell TQ, because she is William's family too. And the Dig is his "brother" so if he tells FS & TQ, than he will probably want to tell Dig. It's a domino effect of either secret keeping or secret revealing. I feel like FS has a different relationship with the truth, she is a far more honest person than OQ. She couldn't keep TQ's paternity a secret from OQ out of respect of their friendship. She had no relationship with TQ, so I can see her deferring to MQ & OQ's decision on keeping the secret from TQ. But she has a relationship with TQ now, so she would feel compelled to tell her. So I can't imagine she would be OK with keeping this secret from everyone, including William.

 

I realize the relationship is already contentious. But it helps nobody if OQ just matched her contention & anger with his blatant disregard of her wishes after he promised to honor it, just because she has wronged him. What she did for 10yrs was despicable, but if they are ever going to move forward OQ has to accept that he can't change that past.

 

He was raised by secret keepers and has been secret keeping for years, he really doesn't know how to have any type of healthy relationship with pure honesty. He is learning how to be in a committed serious relationship. Also until they get rid of the Flashbacks, he will always be keeping secrets from his FB adventures, so the writers have to somehow learn to write that grey area between OQ keeping secrets for plot and having it not always blow up his relationship, now that there is a relationship to be considered. So this is probably their trial secret.

 

Ultimately though I personally think its too early to really judge OQ's actions. Keeping the secret is definitely not the best decision and it's going to hurt FS & OQ. But sometimes in life people get hurt because the alternative would hurt more people. So I will wait and see where they take it. But I'm perfectly fine with people having a different perspective on OQ's behavior. It's similar to when he took Lyla last year. There is a lot of grey in his choices when it comes to which secrets he chooses to keep and from who. If he was more black & white and more honest with everyone than I think he would lose a lot of who his character has been established to be. He might be on a more straight & narrow journey this season, but at his baseline he is someone who is perfectly okay with having a complicated relationship with the truth and is more comfortable with dealing with the consequences of keeping secrets than telling the truth. It might change after this season, but as of now OQ at his core is okay with withholding truths if he deems it for good reasons. And I am OK with him being like that, but YMMV and that is fine. :)

Edited December 11, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

The timeline 1 "breakup" definitely went 0-100. The last time we saw Felicity she was looking at the DNA results. We can fanwank that she worked herself in to a lather thinking about Oliver returning to his S02 or (horrors of horrors) S03 bullshit but eh.

In my head canon, she didn't break up with him, she just walked away "to get some air".

 

Felicity has a pattern of walking away when she just can't deal with what Oliver is doing right now.  She did it in Tremors when he was so pissy about her visiting Coma Barry, and she did it when he got back from the mountain and announced he was going to team up with Malcolm. It's her way of saying "I don't want to talk to you right now."

 

Barry, not knowing how Felicity handles these idiocies of Oliver's, assumed that she was breaking up with him and told T2 Oliver that.

Edited December 11, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

But if he tells FS. Then by rights he really should tell TQ, because she is

William's family too. And the Dig is his "brother" so if he tells FS & TQ,

than he will probably want to tell Dig. It's a domino effect of either secret

keeping or secret revealing.

 

I guess this is where we disagree.  Even though Thea is William's aunt and Dig would make a great honorary uncle, they aren't the ones living with and planning on having their life intimately intertwined with Oliver's.  They don't need to know Oliver is even going to Central City let alone why and might not even realize Oliver is gone, but yeah, Oliver can't hide the fact that he is not at home from Felicity.  He loves them and probably would like to share his news but there are tiers to relationships and fiancé (and even the earlier practically engaged to girlfriend status) is the first tier. They are the team within the team.   William's existence directly affects their life for the rest of their lives.  I don't see Oliver thinking that to tell the person closest to him is opening the floodgates and forcing him to tell everyone important to him. 

 

I feel like FS has a different relationship with the truth, she is a far more honest person than OQ. She couldn't keep TQ's paternity a secret from OQ out of respect of their friendship. She had no relationship with TQ, so I can see her deferring to MQ & OQ's decision on keeping the secret from TQ. But she has a relationship with TQ now, so she would feel compelled to tell her. So I can't imagine she would be OK with keeping this secret from everyone, including William.

 

But her relationship with Thea can't compete with her relationship with Oliver.  She might advise Oliver that he shouldn't have to hide the truth from Thea or his most trusted friends and she probably would tell him her viewpoint on keeping the truth from William, but Felicity wouldn't break Oliver's trust by going against his wishes and telling Thea or Diggle or William and I don't think she'd struggle with hiding the truth.  She might struggle seeing the harm the lying about William does to Oliver, but except when Oliver's life was at risk, she's never gone against his wishes when it comes to his secrets nor have we ever seen her struggling not to tell them. 

 

He was raised by secret keepers and has been secret keeping for years, he really doesn't know how to have any type of healthy relationship with pure honesty. He is learning how to be in a committed serious relationship. Also until they get rid of the Flashbacks, he will always be keeping secrets from his FB adventures, so the writers have to somehow learn to write that grey area between OQ keeping secrets for plot and having it not always blow up his relationship, now that there is a relationship to be considered. So this is probably their trial secret.

 

I don't disagree that Oliver is a work in progress in relationships.  Yes, he is still learning but this secret doesn't come off to me as anything he should be confused about.  Not mentioning striking up a friendship with an ex might be something he could not realize his fiancé might be interested in.  But surprise kid, he IMO demonstrated he knew he should tell Felicity.  He looked sick at the idea of not being able to tell her.  And that's my issue.  I don't understand what makes him think he can't.  

 

On a slightly different subject, I don't see Oliver not having shared every experience he's had in the past as the same thing as lying about William now.  He didn't have to have told Felicity about the pregnancy scare or the miscarriage.  There are things in everyone's past that might be best left in the past but once something is no longer in the past, then keeping quiet about it becomes IMO a lie, not before. 

 

Ultimately though I personally think its too early to really judge OQ's actions. Keeping the secret is definitely not the best decision and it's going to hurt FS & OQ. But sometimes in life people get hurt because the alternative would hurt more people.

 

The show could surprise me and you can be sure, I am hoping for that.  And I can see that some secrets happen for the greater good or like you suggested, to hurt the least amount of people, I just don't see how ANYONE would be hurt if Oliver told Felicity that William existed.  How would BM ever know? 

 

OQ at his core is okay with withholding truths if he deems it for good reasons. And I am OK with him being like that, but YMMV and that is fine. :)

 

I don't disagree but I need to at least understand what his reasons for keeping the secrets are and "because BM said so" doesn't work for me when I know Oliver IS comfortable keeping secrets so why isn't he comfortable keeping BM in the dark about telling Felicity?  I can't understand why Oliver thinks Just because BM made a unenforceable demand, why Oliver thinks that is a good enough reason to withhold the truth from someone that deserves the truth. 

 

YMMV but I think a lot of your post is speculation. It's a really good post, but its all based on actions that OQ has not done yet.

 

 

Not understanding this.  Could you expand on what you mean?  He's already withheld the truth about William.  He's already prioritized not lying to BM over not lying to Felicity.  What is spec?

 

As of now he has told one white lie and appears to have the intention to keep this secret. But we really have no idea where OQ is taking his decision to keep William a secret from everyone, or how long he plans on doing it.

 

I don't agree that it is a white lie.  For me, a white lie is "yes, your butt looks good in those jeans" or "you sounded great and not at all off key on open mike night".  Those are social lies.  Concealing a child and going back on a promise to explain what the noticeable problem was in Central City by claiming it doesn't matter and is all over now - I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything but a blatant lie. William's existence does matter and he told the kid he would be back so it's not over.   Also we know that  

Oliver will not ever tell Felicity. She has to find out from someone else.

  (Is it a spoiler if it is said in a regular interview by the producers?) 

 

It's true, we don't know if Oliver has a deadline for how long he is willing to conceal the truth. It is possible that he might reveal something that might mitigate or at least explain his actions but so far I just don't feel like we've been given any legitimate reason to not see this as Oliver lying for no other reason but plot.  I know that is the ultimate answer but I really need the show to give me something to cling to.  I want to understand Oliver's actions.  I want this whole thing NOT to blow up in his face.  I know that's impossible but I'm still hoping that the blow up can happen without an actual break up. 

 

I don't need to punish Oliver for what he's done but I either need him to realize where he messed up (Not prioritizing his relationship with Felicity over BM) or the show to convince me that Oliver at least thought he had a legitimate reason for not being able to tell Felicity and at this point I don't think the show has accomplished this at all.   

[BkWurm1]

In my head canon, she didn't break up with him, she just walked away "to get some air".

 

Unless someone says, I'm moving out or I am breaking up with you, or something specific, I assume it is a fight in progress.  Felicity posed the question of how could she be with someone that doesn't trust her.  Yes, she also in that moment felt that he didn't trust her and never would,  but she didn't say state that she couldn't be with him or they were over or had no future.  She acted like she couldn't see a future but everyone knows the heat of the moment clouds reality.  It was a bad fight but nothing felt final.  That was round one. 

Barry, not knowing how Felicity handles these idiocies of Oliver's, assumed that she was breaking up with him and told T2 Oliver that.

 

I wish we knew for sure what Oliver thought about what Barry told him.  I have a hard time thinking he would think Felicity would break up with him over a surprise kid. Plus, it was implied that when he went to talk to BM that he tried again to be allowed to tell Felicity.  So by that reasoning, Oliver's not lying to Felicity in some misguided attempt to save their relationship, but only because of BM drama.  If he is acting in part out of fear of losing her, he's still an idiot but I'd like to know if it is a factor or not.   

[apinknightmare]

I wish we knew for sure what Oliver thought about what Barry told him.  I have a hard time thinking he would think Felicity would break up with him over a surprise kid. Plus, it was implied that when he went to talk to BM that he tried again to be allowed to tell Felicity.  So by that reasoning, Oliver's not lying to Felicity in some misguided attempt to save their relationship, but only because of BM drama.  If he is acting in part out of fear of losing her, he's still an idiot but I'd like to know if it is a factor or not.   

 

Seems to me that we're supposed to think that Barry thinking they broke up in the original timeline is supposed to be a motivating factor in him keeping the kid a secret, otherwise what was the point of Barry telling him that and talking to him about "temporal backlash"? 

[hogwash]

I don't get why they're shocked everyone saw the ultimatum for what it was. It's the only reason Oliver lied to Felicity which is the only reason they "broke up" in timeline 1 which is the only reason Oliver is still lying to Felicity in timeline 2. Convoluted nonsense. They may have speedforced/stretched the fallout for a couple of episodes but it's exact same beats as Oliver "training" with Merlyn. I honestly have no problem with the ultimatum itself. It's pretty consistent with the BM's actions since her first introduction. She didn't tell anyone and moved 600+ miles away to keep the Queen Family and their bullshit far away from her and her kid. It's a smart move for anyone who in the crosshairs of Moira Queen in mama bear mode (GO S02 FELICITY!!). 

 

Their lives would be screwed if it ever go out so it makes sense that she would swear Oliver to secrecy. It doesn't matter that Oliver's not super rich anymore and that the scandal around him has mostly died down. It would be a juicy scandal even if he wasn't running for mayor.There's no way Oliver Queen's secret kid wouldn't be headline news and tabloid fodder everywhere. So there's plenty of reasons they could've had the BM use to rationalize the ultimatum. But nah. Vague bullshit and a neon sign pointing at setup for future Oliver/Felicity conflict works so much better...

 

Now I made myself sad imagining Moira contacting every assassin she knows the moment she realized Thea went off on a roadtrip with Malcolm freaking Merlyn. My Queen. She's the reason I powered through the first half of S01. Worst death of the show. Yes, I'm counting S03 Sara...

[Sasha]

Well I really hope it's BM and/or William in the grave because I don't give two fucks about this stupid plotline. This long lost child crap belongs on Days of Our Lives. It makes me so angry I want to bitch slap the fool who thought it was a good idea. But, but, but we have to have the drama! You can't have a happy couple on television. It's forbidden. It's boring. Bullshit! Oliver and Felicity are far from boring. Those stupid flashbacks are boring. Laurel is boring. A ten year old kid is fucking boring! Weak ass lying bitch baby mama is boring. I am running out of expletives, sorry, rant over.

[dtissagirl]

This discussion has made me realize I'm more okay with Oliver being terrified that Felicity's gonna break up with him if he tells her he has a kid, rather than he's trying to ~honor a promise~ to BM. Him being terrified of losing Felicity I get. It's dumb and shitty of him to do it, but I understand it. Oliver wanting to honor a crazy ass demand from BM makes me wanna hulksmash, because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited December 12, 2015 by dtissagirl

[way2interested]

Quite frankly, it puzzles me that the writers feel the need to manufacture new drama between Oliver and Felicity, since organic problems between them were enough to satisfy the story, the audience, and even the critics. I get that the writers could not fully anticipate the reactions to any drama between Olicity, but they had to had seen the differences between what they were deciding to go with in 406 and 409 vs. 408 and the consequential subplot. With one side of drama coming internally, and another coming from external means, I wonder if the writers just wanted to diversify the type of couple problems to make sure they covered all of their tracks if people did not receive 406 or 409 well (which would be rather pessimistic thinking, considering that 406 and 409 would be depending on SA and EBR, who already proved themselves able to carry character-based drama between them, and that 408 and the subplot would be depending on the writers, who only proved themselves to be moderately successful at best, to create a logical external problem for the actors to react to). 

[dtissagirl]

At this point I'm convinced this is the only kind of writing that MG can do. He comes up with the end point -- something has to tear apart [or at least threaten to] O/F during February sweeps, so he comes up with the most convoluted and nonsense-y thing he can think of, because this is legit his idea of how the soapy aspects have to be written.

Whereas anyone with half a brain can see through his writing for plot [hence every pro-reviewer ever calling him on his BS], but also, it's not even that hard to come up with alternatives. The other characters having to deal with the fact that Oliver has a kid sounds a lot more interesting to me, because that would lead to character-driven moments. Felicity having to deal with the question of whether she even wants kids is more interesting. Oliver and Diggle talking about fatherhood is more interesting. Hell, Laurel's reaction to learning Oliver's cheating actually produced a spawn is more interesting.

Instead we have a looming secret that doesn't seem likely to produce that much story content, until it blows up in Oliver's face. It's really terribad writing.

[hogwash]

It's one after the other. Proof that the good run of S04 episodes (outside of Laurel losing her marbles and dunking Sara in the pit) are not a fluke right after a huge reminder of the convoluted dreck that plagued S03. 409 makes me think that they can fix 408 and it could really be good but they're the ones who screwed it up in the first place so... 

Edited December 12, 2015 by hogwash

[way2interested]

I feel like part of the reason is that some of this drama is more easily visually-appealing, as in the writers could more easily picture this plot happening than trying to adjust their views to new plots. A fight between Olicity is easier to immediately imagine than "Felicity questioning whether she wants to have kids" or "Diggle and Oliver discussing fatherhood," even though the latter two plots are more interesting and more character-friendly than the former. Again, it's a shame, because with a little thought and effort, a seemingly simple and possibly unappealing plot of "Oliver and Felicity talk about marriage" can become appealing and deeply fascinating. 

 

Weirdly enough, perhaps they are just using the kid plot to bring up Oliver and Felicity's issues with secrets between each other and the possibility of having children and a family together. It would continue to follow the pattern that s4 has already started, using outside forces to influence their internal issues (using the Ghosts to bring up Oliver and Felicity's viewpoints of what they want in life, using Ray to bring up Felicity's insecurities of losing herself with Oliver, using DD to bring up Oliver's insecurities on marriage), just on a longer, and more complex, scale.

[lemotomato]

 

 

 

Gifset from here

[BkWurm1]

 

 

 

Gifset from here

The does things to me.  Brings a sting of happy tears.  This show of ours.  It brings the hate but oh, then is does this and I feel love and awe for what it can accomplish to a degree that is nearly unmatched in my past experience with TV.   Please show, don't screw this wonderful thing up.  If you let it, it is only going to get better and better. 

[Chaser]

I love how SA delivered the Felicity Smoak in the proposal. I'm not sure if they were intentionally calling back the first meeting (for whatever reason stating the full name is popular in TV proposals), but SA played Oliver like he was.

[bijoux]

In my head canon, she didn't break up with him, she just walked away "to get some air".

 

Felicity has a pattern of walking away when she just can't deal with what Oliver is doing right now.  She did it in Tremors when he was so pissy about her visiting Coma Barry, and she did it when he got back from the mountain and announced he was going to team up with Malcolm. It's her way of saying "I don't want to talk to you right now."

 

Barry, not knowing how Felicity handles these idiocies of Oliver's, assumed that she was breaking up with him and told T2 Oliver that.

It's not just that Barry doesn't know how Felicity handles things, it's like he doesn't know how relationships work. People fight, it's not automatically the end. In retrospect, it really makes me wonder about his headspace and what he thinks a relationship is and should be like.

[kismet]

I guess this is where we disagree.     

 

I feel like I already addressed responses to your ideas in my other posts. So let's just agree to disagree. I feel like OQ keeping this secret is his way of figuring out what to do and protecting his relationships while he is still figuring it out. If he tells FS, than he is asking her to lie as well. As of right now, he is the only one being forced to withhold the truth. FS hates mysteries, IMO there is no way that he tells he and she just sits on the information and does not want to do something about it.  

 

Not understanding this.  Could you expand on what you mean?  He's already withheld the truth about William.  He's already prioritized not lying to BM over not lying to Felicity.  What is spec?

Because most of what you are discussing is what will happen if he continues to keep this child a secret from FS. In real time, he has known about the child for 2 weeks. Since that time, he has beaten an Immortal, been involved in a domestic terrorism attack, watched 3 of his loved ones nearly gassed to death and currently has a bleeding out fiancé. I guess that is his usual Weds, but I still think that he is permitted to have more time to figure out the best way to deal with BMs demands and adjust to the idea of even having a son. I don't think he immediately needs to tell her the truth. Yes FS is the most important person in his life. But if he chooses to be part of William's life than he should be important as well and by extension then so is BM. So I don't see it as prioritizing one relationship over the other, but rather balancing all of them.  

 

I already explained that I don't think what he said to FS was a lie in one of the threads. And clearly, MG & SA per the interview have stated that they went out of their way to not have OQ lie. Which when you read the transcript is true - there is no explicit lie. If you only look at the black & white of his words, there is not one provable lie in his statement to FS. There is misdirection and perhaps over summarization, but no lie. For him it was over and did not matter in that moment. He lied to her in T1, he did not lie to her in T2. He didn't reveal information to her, that's withholding and not lying.

 

I feel like I already talked a lot about OQ and this decision in my other posts and I just don't want to fill another post worth of ideas when we just have fundamental differences on the scenario. I think both are valid viewpoints. But we could go back and forth for tons of posts and still not convince each other to change our viewpoints. And I don't want to bring out that poor horse.

 

I think he has some time to make this situation right. He has a grace window before withholding this truth becomes problematic and disrespectful to his relationship with FS. So I am going to give him that grace period to get it together. His world as he knows it exploded when he found out about William and now its seismically changed again with all the events of 409. He needs to tell FS, but he didn't need to do it last week and there are certainly more pressing issues now. But his window is small.

It's true, we don't know if Oliver has a deadline for how long he is willing to conceal the truth. It is possible that he might reveal something that might mitigate or at least explain his actions but so far I just don't feel like we've been given any legitimate reason to not see this as Oliver lying for no other reason but plot.  I know that is the ultimate answer but I really need the show to give me something to cling to.  I want to understand Oliver's actions.  I want this whole thing NOT to blow up in his face.  I know that's impossible but I'm still hoping that the blow up can happen without an actual break up.

 

I don't need to punish Oliver for what he's done but I either need him to realize where he messed up (Not prioritizing his relationship with Felicity over BM) or the show to convince me that Oliver at least thought he had a legitimate reason for not being able to tell Felicity and at this point I don't think the show has accomplished this at all. 

His legitimate reason is that he made a promise to BM and he is trying to honor that promise to prove that he is not the douchebag guy that he was when William was conceived. That is a legitimate reason. Just because BM made a calculated decision and kept William from him does not deny her the right to have OQ honor a promise that he made. Dumb Ultimatum or not, he agreed to it. If he doesn't honor his promises, than he is just a lying liar that lies. Then he truly will have regressed in his characterization. 

 

And at the end of it, I too want him to have learned from this experience. Heck, I want BM to have learned from this experience as well. I think she is acting from a pretty angry and distrustful place. So as extreme as her request is, I can almost understand it. Because in many ways it feels like she is testing OQ to see just how much he has changed. And if I had known Ollie, I might have thought I needed an extreme gesture of faith/trust to prove to me that he is not the same guy he was 10yrs ago.

Edited December 12, 2015 by kismet

[Sasha]

Because in many ways it feels like she is testing OQ to see just how much he has changed. And if I had known Ollie, I might have thought I needed an extreme gesture of faith/trust to prove to me that he is not the same guy he was 10yrs ago.

.

Here's my issue with her. If Oliver was good enough to fuck then he was good enough to be her baby daddy. Birth control fails. Peope lie. Before the panties come off you better take a good look at that person. He could be the father of your child. Same for Oliver. Don't stick your dick in crazy. That could be your baby mama. And we know he has jumped some crazies bitches.

You could say they were both young, dumb and reckless. Well if you are old enough to have sex then you are old enough to deal with the fallout. Everyone makes mistakes but you have to live with the consequences. That's life. In my opinion she had no right to lie and say she had a miscarriage. She had no right to keep his child from him for 10 years. She slept with him and she kept the baby. He is the father of that child and she doesn't get to make the rules. That's for family court to decide. She should be asking Oliver for forgiveness not makng demands.

As for Oliver I am willing to give him that small grace period to wrap his head around it. Or I am willing to give the writers a very small window to clean up this mess. They are staring to resemble an abusive boyfriend. Don't smack me around one week with the baby drama and then try to make up with a perfect night of Olicity. Right now I don't trust them and the whole is Felicity the one in the grave tease is insulting. I've walked away from better shows than this.

Gosh I had no idea I was was so angry about 408 until they gave us a near perfect 409! I better go rewatch season 2 so I can survive the winter break.

[Password]

Don't smack me around one week with the baby drama and then try to make up with a perfect night of Olicity. Right now I don't trust them and the whole is Felicity the one in the grave tease is insulting. I've walked away from better shows than this.

This is the problem isn't it? It's why the baby mama storyline is so ridiculous because the next week it's business as usual and episode 8 was a nightmare the collective audience had. And not just the audience saw it, REVIEWERS all thought it was contrived and cheap.

I'm consoling myself with episode 9 Olicity videos. They're SO GOOD.

[way2interested]

This is the problem isn't it? It's why the baby mama storyline is so ridiculous because the next week it's business as usual and episode 8 was a nightmare the collective audience had. And not just the audience saw it, REVIEWERS all thought it was contrived and cheap.

I'm consoling myself with episode 9 Olicity videos. They're SO GOOD.

 

It also makes me wonder how each of the writers actually view Oliver and Felicity's relationship. It's interesting in other shows when you can tell that certain writers perceive romances differ from others, leading to some contradictory scenes episode per episode. I'm not saying that writers are completely on separate pages when depicting relationships, but it is becoming more clear to me that WM seems to view Olicity as a byproduct of Oliver's and Felicity's character development whereas MG seems to view Olicity as somewhat of a plot device that allows possibilities for stories and pushing the plot along rather than for development. Both aren't necessarily bad per se (unless taken to an extreme to manufacture drama like in 408 or used needlessly to simply over-reinforce their couple status, which hasn't really happened yet), but the differences in perception become extremely clear once you place 408 and 409 back-to-back. 

[wonderwall]

It also makes me wonder how each of the writers actually view Oliver and Felicity's relationship. It's interesting in other shows when you can tell that certain writers perceive romances differ from others, leading to some contradictory scenes episode per episode. I'm not saying that writers are completely on separate pages when depicting relationships, but it is becoming more clear to me that WM seems to view Olicity as a byproduct of Oliver's and Felicity's character development whereas MG seems to view Olicity as somewhat of a plot device that allows possibilities for stories and pushing the plot along rather than for development. Both aren't necessarily bad per se (unless taken to an extreme to manufacture drama like in 408 or used needlessly to simply over-reinforce their couple status, which hasn't really happened yet), but the differences in perception become extremely clear once you place 408 and 409 back-to-back. 

 

This makes me wonder... Do they work together to make plot decisions? Because I feel like Wendy would balance MG out in terms of making said plot points not seem so contrived. It also says a lot that MGs favorite Olicity scenes are ones where they're fighting (he loved the fight in 312 and he loved the fight in 406...)

[way2interested]

Technically, as co-showrunners, WM and MG, along with GB, should work together to make plot decisions, but the scale of those decisions probably allows them some independent decision-making. For instance, the idea of injuring Felicity in 409 or even bringing back the kid in 408 was probably a group decision (although, considering the fact that when the kid was established in s2 and last year's flashbacks, WM wasn't a showrunner yet, making bringing the kid back more of honoring a decision that GB, MG, and SA made in the past more than organically bringing it up from WM's ideas), but ideas of what Oliver and Felicity would say to each other during their fight in 406 or concerning their possible engagement would be an individual writer's/director's decision with MG and WM having final input on what's happening.

 

They do seem to be balancing out each other on a broader scale, though. Considering the biggest problem, barring Laurel with Sara's resurrection plot that was more tied to the decision to set-up LoT rather than to Arrow's story, is this one subplot in Olicity's storyline, as long as this doesn't do any irreparable long-term damage, they don't seem to be doing too bad of a job. (That being said, I have no shame in admitting I love seeing WM's face explaining to me the plot in the producer's previews and was actually majorly disappointed that there wasn't one for 409)  

[TwistedandBored]

I really don't know what you guys are talking about? 408? What is this episode you speak of?

 

Seriously, unless BM is there, I forget she and the kid even exist. The show it seems does too. So, it doesn't bother me right now.

It will though when he starts making those secret trips. I don't see the writers doing that off camera since they want to show us Oliver as a father. It will be at this time, I would really care. For now, I am just going to enjoy Olicity while they last. 

[thegirlsleuth]

It also makes me wonder how each of the writers actually view Oliver and Felicity's relationship. It's interesting in other shows when you can tell that certain writers perceive romances differ from others, leading to some contradictory scenes episode per episode. I'm not saying that writers are completely on separate pages when depicting relationships, but it is becoming more clear to me that WM seems to view Olicity as a byproduct of Oliver's and Felicity's character development whereas MG seems to view Olicity as somewhat of a plot device that allows possibilities for stories and pushing the plot along rather than for development. Both aren't necessarily bad per se (unless taken to an extreme to manufacture drama like in 408 or used needlessly to simply over-reinforce their couple status, which hasn't really happened yet), but the differences in perception become extremely clear once you place 408 and 409 back-to-back. 

 

 

Since fairly or unfairly I like to lay season three at his feet, I would argue that Guggenheim views his characters as devices to push plot rather than characters to be developed.  4.08 has turned me bitter towards him and his comic book storytelling, and that all his "it's epic!" crap last year really was how he views how stories should be told.  I could list the sheer number of things that characters in season three do that made no sense from the large to the small, all so that he could either a) lay on the melodrama, or b) somehow "shock" the audience with the plot twist. The problem with his his storytelling is that every time the plot gets too convoluted or when his characters do something that no rational human being would do--babymama making the demand, and Oliver agreeing to it--it completely throws the readers out of the story because the story becomes about what in the world the writer was thinking instead of what the character is doing. 

 

I seem to be having a delayed rage reaction about season three brought about by 4.08.  Instead I should talk about how much I loved that Oliver and Felicity were constantly dropping down or kneeling so that they were at the same level when talking in 4.09 and always held hands.  Also, they both have pretty eyes.

[dtissagirl]

I think I've found my zen in mockery. By realizing Guggenheim is really a crappy storyteller with the worst case of Writers Writing I've ever seen, topped with an ego that makes sure the audience is aware that HERE'S THE WRITER in every single gotcha!, and psych!, and twist!, and swerve! I mean, he made Oliver into the dumbest dumbo who ever dumbed without even realizing he was doing it -- if that doesn't deserve an award or something, I don't know what does.

Edited December 13, 2015 by dtissagirl

[thegirlsleuth]

Mockery is a great consolation.  I'm now inserting "twelve writers writing" and eleven dumbos dumbing" into the lyrics of "The Twelve Days of Christmas", dtissagirl. 

[statsgirl]

Even if WM can bring the emotional maturity to whatever plot MG creates, he's still the senior.  He helped create the show and he ran it almost alone last season.  She can smooth out the rough edges, she can write episodes like Dark Waters, but it's MG who determines the storyllnes and what happens when.

 

It's not just that Barry doesn't know how Felicity handles things, it's like he doesn't know how relationships work. People fight, it's not automatically the end. In retrospect, it really makes me wonder about his headspace and what he thinks a relationship is and should be like.

We're seen it over on The Flash. I'd say, he's working at about a 15 year old level.

[BkWurm1]

Even if WM can bring the emotional maturity to whatever plot MG creates, he's still the senior.  He helped create the show and he ran it almost alone last season.  She can smooth out the rough edges, she can write episodes like Dark Waters, but it's MG who determines the storyllnes and what happens when.

Taking to the BTS thread.

[looptab]

I'm so behind with this thread (trying to catch up-at a snail pace) but there's something that's been bugging me from last episode.

Although it's been nice to have Laurel being useful for a change, there is something about that pep talk she gave Oliver that doesn't seem quite right. Were there that many if any at all instances in which she witnessed Oliver in his 'It's all my fault' state? Because I can't recall any at the moment. Maybe it's because I generally erase her scenes from my mind, but it seemed weird coming from her.

[BkWurm1]

I'm so behind with this thread (trying to catch up-at a snail pace) but there's something that's been bugging me from last episode.

Although it's been nice to have Laurel being useful for a change, there is something about that pep talk she gave Oliver that doesn't seem quite right. Were there that many if any at all instances in which she witnessed Oliver in his 'It's all my fault' state? Because I can't recall any at the moment. Maybe it's because I generally erase her scenes from my mind, but it seemed weird coming from her.

They brought in Laurel at the end of season two when Oliver took all the blame for Slade and was going to trade his life to keep his friends and family safe.  That's the big one I think, but she also was around for the end of season three when Oliver's plan for fixing everything was to sacrifice his life.  That might have been seen as him blaming himself for everything.  More than anything I assume she's just heard talk.

[Ceylon5]

I'm still wondering how Felicity and Diggle explained to Laurel why Oliver had turned himself over to the LOA, while leaving out the whole Thea-in-the-Lazarus-Pit thing.  Also why did they leave that part out and tell her some alternative explanation?  Seems pointless.  Or did she just not ask, and they never explained anything at all?  Which meant she must have also not asked how Thea recovered so fast (or did she even know Thea was hurt in the first place?).  Weird.

 

My least favourite aspect of this show is all the secrets and lies.  I wish they'd all stop it, even if it is a little bit hilarious that no-one ever tells Laurel anything, which does seem to be a deliberate joke at this point.  Like they're sitting around saying, "Don't tell Laurel this, she's bound to do something dumb if she knows."  Speaking of things Laurel doesn't know - does she know Roy is still alive?  She wasn't there to say good-bye to him and I can't remember if she was even in that episode.  Maybe they "forgot" to tell her that too.

[Happy Harpy]

It's not just that Barry doesn't know how Felicity handles things, it's like he doesn't know how relationships work. People fight, it's not automatically the end. In retrospect, it really makes me wonder about his headspace and what he thinks a relationship is and should be like.

OMG, Barry is Chandler Bing!

 

Like they're sitting around saying, "Don't tell Laurel this, she's bound to do something dumb if she knows."

Quentin didn't even need to be explicit with Felicity, "Laurel doesn't know" was enough to know she shouldn't tell. For once a lie made me laugh, but I was all giddy with Quentin/Donna already.

In their defence, Laurel generally does something dumb once she knows.

[bijoux]

OMG, Barry is Chandler Bing!

Crap. When you're right, you're right.

As for Laurel, she was in the episode. She got the team in to see Oliver at the police station. I would be surprised if she knew about him being alive. She didn't know about Thea's dunk in the pit and they had been living together for months.