Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[apinknightmare]

No, it's technically not a retcon...but it really doesn't jive with what was shown in season 1. 

It's like Thea being Malcolm's daughter..not a retcon but definitely not something that was in the works. 

 

Or more appropriately...Felicity's gothness.

 

None of these things undo anything that we were told throughout the course of the story, and there wasn't anything at all in the narrative that would lead us to believe that Laurel wasn't a petty ass as a teenager, or that Felicity didn't go through a goth phase. Just because we know the writers came up with these characteristics on the fly doesn't mean anything in terms of actual show canon unless it undoes something that was previously established. The only actual instance of retconning I can think of is something you haven't even bought up - and that's the fact that we haven't seen Laurel's picture on Oliver in the flashbacks in going on three years. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[hogwash]

I still can't believe that Sara and Laurel were both in love with that version of Oliver. He sucked. I kinda question their intelligence. He sucked that much. 

[Sakura12]

I've never been sure whether the boat was their first time actually together.  I think maybe it was?  But if not, they definitely had threesomes.  

 

I don't think it was. I think Sara said something on the island about Oliver having the same look on his face that he had the first time they kissed. And I'm assuming that kiss led to more because it's Oliver. I kind of had the feeling they've been hooking up every once in awhile, then Oliver invited her on his sex cruise. I don't think he'd want to invite someone he hasn't slept with yet for a month long cruise. Oliver would be in heaven if Sara invited other women into their bed. I could see that being the girl he wanted to invite on his sex cruise. 

 

The difference for me with Sara and Laurel is. Sara knew exactly what kind of guy Oliver was she didn't live in a fantasy world where he was he was this great catch. She probably liked him because he liked to party and cause trouble as much as she did. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

So it's "technically not a retcon," but it's what, metaphorically a retcon, because you don't like it?

 

Words have meaning.   

Edited November 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Genki]

I've never been sure whether the boat was their first time actually together.  I think maybe it was?  But if not, they definitely had threesomes.  

 

The text messages between Oliver and Sara gave me the impression they had hooked up before. I could look it up but it would take EFFORT and Ollie and the Lances are not enough reason.

 

 

214 is a shitty episode about people being shitty, but it's also the moment they admitted utter defeat in their original premise that sister swapping would somehow develop into tru wuv. So I just find it THE FUNNIEST EPISODE now.

Sara's a jerk, Oliver's a dumbass, Laurel is right but comes off wrong because cognitive dissonance is embedded into her, but GOODBYE FOREVER DOOMED STORYLINE.

And here, let's have Felicity take a bullet for someone she just met and be the hero and save the day, and be instantly upgraded to LOVE INTEREST, caps required, even though Oliver's gonna be in a relationship with Sara for six more episodes because we're trying to fool y'all suckers who watch this shitty episode into believing he isn't completely gone for her yet.

 

 

They definitely put SL/OL in as a stall for Olicity and cannon tick box exercise. GA/BC dating - DONE!! 

 

I think they were trying to hedge their bets in S2B, seeing the fandom reaction to the fake-out "ILU", secured Felicity as LI for S3 IMO.

I think it came off a little weird in S2 because they were effectively "killing" Lauriver but they were laughably still trying to fool the audience into thinking Laurel could be "Who Oliver loves to most" in the finale.

[AyChihuahua]

None of these things undo anything that we were told throughout the course of the story, and there wasn't anything at all in the narrative that would lead us to believe that Laurel wasn't a petty ass as a teenager, or that Felicity didn't go through a goth phase. Just because we know the writers came up with these characteristics on the fly doesn't mean anything in terms of actual show canon unless it undoes something that was previously established. The only actual instance of retconning I can think of is something you haven't even bought up - and that's the fact that we haven't seen Laurel's picture on Oliver in the flashbacks in going on three years. 

Yeah, by that "logic," Sara was a villain (bc they came up with her being good on the fly); Isabel was neutral to good and not Slade's ally (bc they had no idea whether she was going to be good/bad/indifferent until halfway through the season); Oliver wasn't stabbed and kicked off a cliff (bc they came up with that partway into the season); Oliver's not with Felicity (bc that was REALLY not part of the plan); there was no Mirakuru cure (bc that was obviously a Hail Mary)...etc., etc.  IMO they make up 3/4s of the storylines as they go...because they are IDIOTS.  Doesn't change the fact that once it appears on the show, it's canon.

Edited November 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[hogwash]

I don't think the cruise was their first time together either. Sara's concerns in the flashbacks seemed to be that the cruise would finally lead to them getting caught.

 

They definitely put SL/OL in as a stall for Olicity and cannon tick box exercise. GA/BC dating - DONE!! 

 

I think they were trying to hedge their bets in S2B, seeing the fandom reaction to the fake-out "ILU", secured Felicity as LI for S3 IMO.

I think it came off a little weird in S2 because they were effectively "killing" Lauriver but they were laughably still trying to fool the audience into thinking Laurel could be "Who Oliver loves to most" in the finale.

 

I liked the fakeout but they pushed back too hard on Felicity and Oliver. They barely interacted so for a while there it felt like 2A was just shippers over-analyzing.

[lemotomato]

No, it's technically not a retcon...but it really doesn't jive with what was shown in season 1. 

It's like Thea being Malcolm's daughter..not a retcon but definitely not something that was in the works. 

 

Or more appropriately...Felicity's gothness.

According to the Arrow 1.5 comics (released while season 1 was airing), teen Laurel was arguably portrayed as petty and selfish as far as Sara was concerned. Sara was getting beat up at school because she was flirting with someone's boyfriend, and Laurel refused to defend her until her dad told her to. So the added backstory to Laurel and Sara's relationship in season 2 was not a retcon at all, considering the comics was the only glimpse of teen Laurel we were given.

Edited November 29, 2015 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

I think it came off a little weird in S2 because they were effectively "killing" Lauriver but they were laughably still trying to fool the audience into thinking Laurel could be "Who Oliver loves to most" in the finale.

 

My favorite part about that whole thing was when Slade called Oliver in the tunnel and was like, "I have the one you love. You're going to meet me where I say, otherwise I'm going to kill her," and Oliver replies with, "Do what you have to." LMAO, like...damn dude. DAMN.

[dtissagirl]

I think the EPs were dumb enough in S1 to think sister swapping was a reasonable obstacle for a romantic storyline, and that the audience would be able to get over it via falling in love with Laurel, and rooting for her to forgive Oliver for it.

Then it turned out it wasn't reasonable, and the audience didn't fall in love with Laurel, and was actually appalled by the entire thing, so they doubled down on the sister swapping in S2 to destroy L/O. This is called "writing an open-ended on-going serialized tv show towards fixing a serious problem we ourselves created because we were dumb".

Edited November 29, 2015 by dtissagirl

[hogwash]

The first half of S01 was all about how Oliver was a garbage person but Laurel could see ~the man he could be~ or whatever. If Laurel/Oliver worked, they probably would have continued with that. But it didn't so they just doubled down on "Oliver is a garbage person." We probably wouldn't have gotten those 2B scenes if Laurel/Oliver hadn't crashed and burned. But that doesn't mean that all the S02 Sara/Oliver/Laurel stuff was a retcon. It  worked very well with the first season. 

 

Yay, sister-swapping for being a very versatile(?) horrible backstory??

[Sakura12]

I think what makes it funny as others have pointed out from the sister swapping and being the one cheated on, the writers on this show managed to make Laurel the hated one in all of that. That's quite an accomplishment.

 

My favorite part about that whole thing was when Slade called Oliver in the tunnel and was like, "I have the one you love. You're going to meet me where I say, otherwise I'm going to kill her," and Oliver replies with, "Do what you have to." LMAO, like...damn dude. DAMN.

 

Oliver will go to a dinner he knows he shouldn't be for Sara and won't even make an effort to rescue Laurel from the clutches of madman. How are we supposed to care about Oliver and Laurel when the writers don't seem to care about them when they write Oliver doing more for Sara and Felicity then he ever does for Laurel? I 

[statsgirl]

Well everything would have been better if she was written better. I had no problem with Laurel in season one until she and Oliver slept together. 

Laurel lost me when she turned off the TV that her colleagues were watching because she didn't want to hear it and so no one should.  Then she told Oliver she wished he had left on the island for even more than five years, embarrassed her client when they ran into him at the court house, and she turned down Tommy's offer to support a fund raiser for CNRI because he "only wanted to get into [her] pants."  Later, having said she'll fight for her relationship with Tommy, she's climbing Oliver as soon as she hears he's still into her. She was super cruel to her mother because her mother held out hope that Sara was alive, and she was angry at her father when he supported Dinah. Season 2 she implied that she wished her sister had really been dead rather than turning up alive (and competing for her parents' attention).

 

So within a few episodes you find out that Laurel is self-centred and cruel.  She'll help people when it's to her glory (being Oliver's lawyer when he's arrested; helping Thea) but she's not only the hero in her own life, she's the only person who matters.

 

I agree she was written problematically but she wasn't a nice person even without that.

 

It's not a retcon; it's filling in blanks.  We had every reason to believe Oliver was a terrible cheater before we were specifically told he was a terrible cheater.  Nothing about Sara/Laurel/Oliver in s2 is a retcon, because none of it is a CHANGE from what we had been shown.  

 

It's so funny, the one constant in all this is that pre-island Oliver was an utter, total, complete turd.  I'm still hung up on him douching on the pizza delivery guy by stinting on the tip.  TOTAL DOUCHEBAG.  But yeah, he kind of pulled this weird thing where he was SUCH a douchebag that he makes Laurel, and everyone else, look pathetic for putting up with him.

 

The thing about pre-island Oliver is that he is such a douche that cheating doesn't even need to enter into the equation.  He did drugs, he was drunk A LOT, he peed on a policeman (or his car, I can never remember which), and he got kicked out of four colleges that his parents' money bought him into.

 

The disconnect has always been that smart, focused Laurel should even want to date this person much less push him into living together as a prelude to marriage.  That's why it's always been easier to see her as someone who wanted to be Mrs. Ollie Queen rather than who genuinely knew and loved Oliver.

 

 

The first half of S01 was all about how Oliver was a garbage person but Laurel could see ~the man he could be~ or whatever. If Laurel/Oliver worked, they probably would have continued with that. But it didn't so they just doubled down on "Oliver is a garbage person."

 

The problem with playing it as Laurel knew the real Oliver was that Laurel never knew the real Oliver so that his speech in the front hall of Queen Manor makes no sense at all.  And she probably still doesn't know him.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver will go to a dinner he knows he shouldn't be for Sara and won't even make an effort to rescue Laurel from the clutches of madman. How are we supposed to care about Oliver and Laurel when the writers don't seem to care about them when they write Oliver doing more for Sara and Felicity then he ever does for Laurel? I 

 

I really don't think they *meant* for it to come off as callous as it did. Oliver seemed fairly certain throughout the episode that Slade wasn't going to hurt Laurel (or Felicity) unless he was there to witness it, but the writers manage to make that relationship shitty regardless. 

[bettername2come]

I really don't think they *meant* for it to come off as callous as it did. Oliver seemed fairly certain throughout the episode that Slade wasn't going to hurt Laurel (or Felicity) unless he was there to witness it, but the writers manage to make that relationship shitty regardless. 

I agree with this. I also think part of it was to convince Slade he really loved Felicity by making himself appear willing to sacrifice Laurel. Especially since that's how Slade perceived him to have felt in regard to Sara/Shado.

[quarks]

In conclusion, episode 214 was a terrible episode.

 

(Except for Moira because Moira. And Slade showing up in the last seconds because Slade.)

[Sakura12]

These writers seem to have a lot of their intentions for Laurel, not be what is shown on screen. 

 

Laurel telling her mother that she was right about Sara being dead wasn't supposed to come across as heartless, Oliver wasn't supposed to sound callous when he told Slade to go ahead do whatever he wanted with Laurel. Laurel lying to her father and using a voice modifier to trick him wasn't supposed to come off as horrible, Laurel resurrecting a soulless Sara wasn't supposed to come across as delusional. 

[nksarmi]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. Sara's not a moron. She didn't need to know the extent of her family's tragic backstory post-Gambit to be able to suss out that inviting her sister's ex-boyfriend, a guy that Sara fucked around with while he was still dating her sister and was currently fucking around with despite their sordid history with said sister was A TERRIBLE IDEA. Literally all you need is two brain cells to rub together to figure that one out.

 

Well ok you are right - but still if we account for her emotional weakness - Oliver still should have known better.  If for no other reason, than he knew it was just a few months earlier that he was declaring his undying love for Laurel. 

[nksarmi]

According to the Arrow 1.5 comics (released while season 1 was airing), teen Laurel was arguably portrayed as petty and selfish as far as Sara was concerned. Sara was getting beat up at school because she was flirting with someone's boyfriend, and Laurel refused to defend her until her dad told her to. So the added backstory to Laurel and Sara's relationship in season 2 was not a retcon at all, considering the comics was the only glimpse of teen Laurel we were given.

Wait so dad told Laurel to beat the crap out of someone rather than tell Sara to stop messing with other people's boyfriends???  I guess mom isn't the only one who instilled messed up values in Sara lol.

 

You know I never even considered that Sara and Oliver had hooked up before, but may be they did.  What I kind of think was a retcon was when the show established through the mom that Sara thought she was in love with Oliver.  My earliest impression was that she went because she had a crush and wanted to have some fun and she didn't think Oliver and Laurel would last anyway.

 

I think the show has been very inconsistent with their portrayal of Oliver as a Bruce Wayne type playboy while simultaneously trying in season one to act like Laurel was his "true love."  And I gotta tell you, the shift in making it more and more obvious that Oliver didn't really care that much about Laurel and that he honestly cared far more about Sara than he did Laurel actually makes him look a hell of a lot worse in season one.  Why?  Because he sees that Tommy really likes Laurel, that Laurel really likes Tommy, and he tells Tommy he will never get between the two of them, and even tells Tommy that he should fight for her..... and then what does the guy who never really loved Laurel and would end up banging her sister in just a few months do - he goes and declares his love for her and tells her he wants his happy ending with her and sleeps with her.

 

I mean even if Laurel really should have been over Oliver - because he was a douchbag - telling her he was wrong about letting her go and that he wanted her had to feed her ego - especially with Tommy telling her that she belonged with Oliver.  So while Laurel is an IDIOT for falling for that crap - I get why she did.  And now we all know that Oliver got in the way of his best friend's happiness for a girl he never really loved. How f'ed up is that?

 

This discussion is so bad for me lol - be reminded of the fact that Oliver was still kind of jerk as recently as season two gets me back to feeling like Felicity really does deserve better!

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver was a huge ginormous jerk more recently, i.e., most of S3, and Felicity totally deserves better.  I mean, actual better, not the Cane Toad "better."  But I'm with fanfic on this one...it's up to her to determine what she wants, and if she wants to date or marry down, more power to her.  

[wonderwall]

I think Oliver's had some very low lows with regards to his relationship with Felicity, but all that matters to me is that he's making up for it by actually being the best boyfriend anyone could ask for (he literally packs her lunch and looks out for her well being)... Hopefully they don't mess that up and make him into S3 Oliver again. 

 

I mean if you think Felicity deserves someone better than Oliver... I honestly, right now, don't think that there's anyone better than Oliver now that he's more mentally and emotionally stable and healthy. Their relationship was bogged down in earlier seasons with this PTSD/internal crises, but Felicity never gave up on him. I think it speaks well for their relationship that they can handle each other at their worst as well as their best. 

[nksarmi]

Basically, what I feel like I'm doing when I think too much about the Oliver we saw with Laurel - not just pre-island but season one as well - and then about the Oliver we see with Felicity is that I'm forcing myself to buy into something that I honestly don't really think is possible.  If Felicity was my real life friend and I saw her with someone like Oliver - I'd say run (and in fact, I can kind of think of a couple I know who resembled this scenario).  And that's because if a guy needs women to feed his ego as much as Oliver seems to need women not just pre-island but also post-island - it's hard to believe he is capable of becoming well adjusted enough to be the kind of man that Felicity deserves.  I mean, I would literally NEVER believe a real-life Oliver (minus the vigilante stuff of course) could change enough to be what we are seeing in season four.  And in fact, if I did see a real life situation where the guy was suddenly the "perfect" boyfriend with a background like Oliver's - I would call it an act.

 

Now I don't believe that's what they are doing on Arrow.  I believe they really want us to believe that Oliver and Felicity are head over heels for each other and she is the ONE woman that will end his need to be with other women - she's his soul mate and he will never, ever stray again.  I know this is what I am supposed to believe and heaven help me, on the show I hope it's true because I love them as a couple.  I also realize that perhaps the show runners realize that they kind of screwed up giving Oliver the background that they did and that the early stuff with Laurel, Sara, and even Tommy is supposed to be swept under the rug because he's "grown up" and isn't that man anymore.  And I'm trying to work with what we have, but I have to admit that if I think about it too much - I don't think Oliver's turnaround is all that realistic. 

[way2interested]

Oliver was a huge ginormous jerk more recently, i.e., most of S3, and Felicity totally deserves better.  I mean, actual better, not the Cane Toad "better."  But I'm with fanfic on this one...it's up to her to determine what she wants, and if she wants to date or marry down, more power to her.  

 

Although I do generally agree with this, I always feel off at the phrase "deserving better." "Better" is in the eye of the beholder in a way. What we consider better may not actually resonate with the character. Even in real relationships people will be with those they love but others don't think they deserve. We can see that Oliver and Felicity's relationship in a real life scope is problematic, but within the show it is shown as a more developmental step for their characters towards something that each of them want.

 

I don't know, that might seem like ramblings, but I always cringe at the "better" comment not with the principle but with some of the application. Oliver, as a jerk, deserves someone like Laurel who doesn't support him to become his best self and takes him at face value, but he doesn't want Laurel. He wants to try to become a better person, hence he deserves a better person. Felicity, as a better person, deserves the perfect person, hypothetically Ray, who understands her and will treat her right, but she doesn't want Ray (even admitting that she should love him because he's perfect but she can't bring herself to). She wants to be self-fulfilled, and helping Oliver and his mission gives her that fulfillment, hence she deserves a person who helps her to achieve that life that she wants. 

 

Although I do believe that Oliver could and should have treated Felicity better in many occasions, I attribute many of those occasions to plot issues and contrived reasons to keep them apart. IMHO, it's not about deserving a better person, but deserving a person who makes you better. Plus, almost every time I see a comment about Felicity deserving "someone better," it's followed by a rant about how Ray was the perfect guy for her, which no....Seeing as you definitely do not think the latter, I gotta say it's just the phrasing that makes me cringe where your reasoning is on point.

[lemotomato]

Oliver spent all of season 3 in a monk-like existence because he loved Felicity but thought he couldn't be with her. When she shut him down for good and started dating Ray, he resigned himself to being alone forever. They spent a summer together and he's so sure about what he wants from the relationship he's ready to propose. He listens to her advice, is supportive of her job, he even lets himself be bait to rescue her ex-boyfriend. I don't know what more Oliver can possibly do at this point to prove that he's grown up and not the guy he was in seasons 1-2 and the flashbacks.

Edited November 29, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Basically, what I feel like I'm doing when I think too much about the Oliver we saw with Laurel - not just pre-island but season one as well - and then about the Oliver we see with Felicity is that I'm forcing myself to buy into something that I honestly don't really think is possible.  If Felicity was my real life friend and I saw her with someone like Oliver - I'd say run (and in fact, I can kind of think of a couple I know who resembled this scenario).  And that's because if a guy needs women to feed his ego as much as Oliver seems to need women not just pre-island but also post-island - it's hard to believe he is capable of becoming well adjusted enough to be the kind of man that Felicity deserves.  I mean, I would literally NEVER believe a real-life Oliver (minus the vigilante stuff of course) could change enough to be what we are seeing in season four.  And in fact, if I did see a real life situation where the guy was suddenly the "perfect" boyfriend with a background like Oliver's - I would call it an act.

 

Now I don't believe that's what they are doing on Arrow.  I believe they really want us to believe that Oliver and Felicity are head over heels for each other and she is the ONE woman that will end his need to be with other women - she's his soul mate and he will never, ever stray again.  I know this is what I am supposed to believe and heaven help me, on the show I hope it's true because I love them as a couple.  I also realize that perhaps the show runners realize that they kind of screwed up giving Oliver the background that they did and that the early stuff with Laurel, Sara, and even Tommy is supposed to be swept under the rug because he's "grown up" and isn't that man anymore.  And I'm trying to work with what we have, but I have to admit that if I think about it too much - I don't think Oliver's turnaround is all that realistic. 

 

You know, if I were Felicity's friend and didn't know Oliver at all, I'd probably tell her the same thing. But we as an audience know post-island Oliver. Felicity knows Oliver and I don't think she'd be with him if he wasn't worth it. Even though Island/Post-Island Oliver has done terrible things, I think we as an audience knows that Oliver is a good man at heart trying to do the best he can with what he has. Sometimes he might be a little misguided, but that doesn't mean his heart isn't in the right place. I think it all depends on whether or not Oliver allows himself to be happy. Because when he's happy, his mind is at peace, he can think and see things more clearly, thus he can make better decisions and be a better man. 

 

I'd agree to an extent that in real life, no one can really change as much as Oliver has... But I don't think anyone has ever really gone through what Oliver went through on that island/Hong Kong/Russia. Oliver changed not by his own volition, but because of the years of hell he was put through. Oliver changed because when he was in purgatory, he had a chance to look back at his actions and make the decision to become a better man, something that he learned while having his life in balance for 5 years. The possibility of death does a lot to change someone. It can be as in the form of a person getting a heart attack and changing his lifestyle to a person just wanting to be a better person because they don't like what they see when they look in the mirror.

 

It's easy to forget Oliver's growth the past 4 seasons because we don't really analyze it much on this board... But Oliver didn't just wake up and say "hey! I want to be a better person". He came back from the island wanting to right his father's wrongs, all the while thinking he was a monster thus pushing everyone away. The two people who actually opened him up and made him want to be a better person was Diggle and Felicity. So it started as baby steps, he started doing vigilante work that wasn't about his mission and more about saving his city. Then Tommy died and Oliver ran away. Oliver came back with a new sense of purpose and that was to help the city and not kill people. That was Oliver trying to do better. But the thing is, is that mentally he was still suffering from PTSD and a huge inferiority complex. Even in S2 Oliver couldn't let himself be happy because he was still sorting out his issues.

 

Then in 301 he started to let himself be happy, and for about 5 minutes it was great. He was open and honest with Felicity and he took her out on a nice little date and he made Sara jewellry and was playful with Felicity on the comms. That was a taste of what we're getting now in S4. But that just got shut down instantly when Sara died and when Felicity got hurt. S3 was about Oliver regressing because he didn't have a handle on his emotions. I think he started to get a handle of them by the end of the season when he allowed himself to be happy again. 

 

I think that a grown up Oliver who's seen the horrors of life and has treaded between life and death can actually appreciate life and understand true happiness if he lets himself. And when Oliver allows himself to be happy, he's the best version of himself. I think we're seeing the man he is today because this is genuinely the man Oliver wants to be. Oliver is trying to be better and trying to not act like he did the past 4 years. I think that's all that matters. 

 

Tbh I don't know if this makes any sense... I'm sorry if it doesn't :p I'm just so incredibly tired. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[hogwash]

Spree killer/vigilante Oliver is practically a different person compared to philandering playboy Oliver. I don't think Oliver knows how to be that Oliver Queen anymore (ha). That Oliver was the product of 20+ years of privilege and crappy upbringing. The "five years in hell" literally beat that person out of him. Now he channels his gross tendencies into being a vigilante/hero instead of a cheating butthole. He's still a callous and insensitive dick.

 

S01 did amazing on that front. It's really clear that the Hood is who Oliver really is at that point. Everything else is mostly a front. Hence him immediately dropping the act when Felicity shows him the notebook (it's seriously weird how much he yells at her in S01). With Diggle the bodyguard, he's jokey and kinda playful. Then he tells Diggle he's the Hood and Diggle spends the rest of S01 interacting with Oliver the giant asshole. Seriously, he's so mean to them in S01. But it definitely got the point across...  

[AyChihuahua]

For the latter half of S2 and basically all of S3, I personally consider Oliver to be a ginormous moronic asshole.  More asshole in S2B and more moron in S3.  But that's me, it's not Felicity.  I love her and respect her, so if she wants him, I want her to have him.  And she wants him, so I wish those two crazy kids nothing but happiness.  But yeah, if she was my daughter and I was watching a documentary of their lives for the last three years, I would have SERIOUS reservations...but it still wouldn't be my choice.  Felicity's awesome, she's made her choice, and I wish her nothing but happiness in that choice.

 

For the record, prior to S3 I loved Oliver more than Felicity.  S3 did real and permanent damage to my love for him.  I'm guessing that no matter how awesome he is going forward, for ME, he'll never be back where he was.  I loved his quasi-serial killer ass in S1, and, blowing off Digg and Felicity notwithstanding, pretty much loved him through S2.  S3, especially the last few episodes, just did real damage to his characterization for me.  

Plus, almost every time I see a comment about Felicity deserving "someone better," it's followed by a rant about how Ray was the perfect guy for her, which no....Seeing as you definitely do not think the latter, I gotta say it's just the phrasing that makes me cringe where your reasoning is on point.

Oliver at his very worst is 1000x the man the Cane Toad is, except that mathematically 1000x a negative would be a larger negative, so go with the metaphor and not the math.  The Cane Toad is a lying misogynistic user.  Oliver is an occasional moron who loves and respects her.  So yeah, Oliver all the way.

 

Forever bummed that her S3 choices were a moron and a Cane Toad.  SUCH bad writing (and for me, casting).  I was so looking forward to her having options.

Edited November 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

And that's because if a guy needs women to feed his ego as much as Oliver seems to need women not just pre-island but also post-island - it's hard to believe he is capable of becoming well adjusted enough to be the kind of man that Felicity deserves.  I mean, I would literally NEVER believe a real-life Oliver (minus the vigilante stuff of course) could change enough to be what we are seeing in season four.  And in fact, if I did see a real life situation where the guy was suddenly the "perfect" boyfriend with a background like Oliver's - I would call it an act.

 

Now I don't believe that's what they are doing on Arrow.  I believe they really want us to believe that Oliver and Felicity are head over heels for each other and she is the ONE woman that will end his need to be with other women - she's his soul mate and he will never, ever stray again.

 

The one thing that I was sold on when Oliver came back from the "island" is that he is no longer a cheating douchebag.  He was still enormously messed up, but he went out of his way NOT to be that cheat again with women.  So for me, he wasn't fixed because he loves Felicity so much.  Or at least that particular gaping flaw was not her doing.  He was cured of his philandering ways before he got home. 

 

Personally I think he probably looked at how much harm it had caused, not just with what he'd done but also within his parents marriage and how if his parents hadn't been so dysfunctional, perhaps he would have been a better person.  I think Oliver had been a serial cheat before not because he needed the ego stroke but just because nobody stopped him and he didn't take anything or anybody seriously.  He didn't worry about consequences.  After the Gambit went down, he worried about consequences and he fought against being that worthless person that he was before. 

 

So yeah, I buy that Oliver was reformed.  I also believe that someone that has faced the consequences of their actions and actually wants to be better, can make changes in their behavior.  They probably need some serious motivation but I think we've established that Oliver had that. 

[looptab]

About Oliver and Laurel's pre-Gambit relationship, I wish the show had been clearer in their status: whether they were on and off, whether he was a cheater aside from Sara. He surely slept with that that club owner's fiance (the one Laurel beats up) and dated Steven Aoki's sister (LOL), plus at some point he talked to Tommy about a certain pattern he followed in every relationship he was in.

Can I say that the word retcon gets thrown around too easily? Whatever new info the writers choose to give does not fall under that.

[thegirlsleuth]

Laurel lost me when she turned off the TV that her colleagues were watching because she didn't want to hear it and so no one should.  Then she told Oliver she wished he had left on the island for even more than five years, embarrassed her client when they ran into him at the court house, and she turned down Tommy's offer to support a fund raiser for CNRI because he "only wanted to get into [her] pants." 

Exactly.  I had such a strong negative reaction to her within the first episode, mostly because she was being set up as an antagonist to a guy that I was watching suffering from PTSD after having been physically, mentally, and emotionally tortured. Ollie was a giant jerk, as was Sara to some extent, but their punishment for being selfish and cheating was so out of proportion to the crime. Admittedly, Laurel didn't have the point of view that we the audience did on what the two of them suffered--and perhaps she got the better end of the stick since she didn't have to suffer through watching the flashbacks--but I feel that wouldn't have changed her attitude. 

[Ceylon5]

I think an analysis of a relationship has less to do with what each person is on their own and more about what they bring out of each other.  So, even if person A is more emotionally mature and stable, has better judgement and has fewer dickish acts to their credit than person B, that doesn't mean that a relationship between them is automatically a poor choice for person A.  What matters more is how they act around each other and because of each other.  There are several different possible relationship outcomes from any 2 people coming together:

 

1) They can bring out the worst in each other (I refer you to Laurel & Oliver).  This isn't really the fault of one or the other; they just suck together and other people can't understand why they stay together.

 

2) They are pretty similar to start with and neither bring out the worst nor the best in each other; they're exactly the same together as they are on their own.  People like this are considered "well-suited" and it's a very laid back kind of relationship - peaceful and not at all challenging.  Oliver and Sarah are probably an example of this.  Also, Barry and Felicity.

 

3) One person is made worse/diminished by the relationship, while the other person is unaffected.  This would include abusive relationships where person B is a generally crappy person and brings down or abuses person A, but could also just be where one person's personality is dampened/diminished around the other person's (through no fault of either party).  People usually think such couples are ill-suited (or in the case of abuse, a serious problem).

 

4) Person B is made better by the relationship (or gets the most out of the relationship), while person A is unaffected or even diminished by it (or gets the least out of the relationship).  This is the kind of relationship where people tend to say "Person A deserves better", because often person B is getting all the benefit, while person A is doing all the work.  Some people might look at Oliver and Felicity and think they fall into this category, but I think they are an example of the final category:

 

5) They bring out the best in each other.  The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  They are the best versions of themselves when they're together.  They "belong together".  That, to me, is why Felicity & Oliver work.  Just because she's better relationship material than he is (thus seeming to fall into the "deserves better" category), that doesn't mean anything in context.  If she dates someone who is just like her, she could end up with a "well-suited" relationship, which is easier but less rewarding than one where they "belong together".  Felicity doesn't strike me as someone who is satisfied with "easy".  Felicity has an ambitious soul, but before she met Oliver she didn't seem to have quite worked out how to be the kind of person she wanted to be.  His belief in her and the opportunities he gave her to use her genius in ways that were both intellectually and emotionally satisfying for her freed her from the inertia she was stuck in.  Oliver challenges Felicity and she rises to those challenges, just as she challenges him to be be a hero and "find another way" and he rises to those challenges.  She also doesn't tolerate his dickishness, which is something he clearly needs (and didn't get from Laurel when they were together).

 

Season 3 showed that Felicity and Oliver as individuals did not do as well when they were at odds with each other as they do when they're together.  He became stupider and more cut off from people he trusted, reverting to old habits, and she became more easily upset and less confident in her relationships as her fear of abandonment resurfaced.  When together, though, the whole isn't just more than the sum of its parts, but each of the parts is more than they would otherwise be. That's why, even though I side eye a lot of Oliver's more douchey acts over the years, I'm fine with them together.  Oliver may not seem like the best boyfriend material, but when he's around Felicity, he's constantly becoming a better version of himself, shedding the worst bits, one by one.  And I don't think Oliver, despite his traumas, issues and the potential to revert to past unpleasant proclivities, is 'bad' for Felicity.  He makes her happy, he brings out the best in her, he believes in her and he pushes her to surpass herself by simply expecting brilliance.  And she does the same for him.  The relationship works because it's everything that both of them want.  You can't ask for more than that.

[nksarmi]

I agree that everything we are seeing from Oliver and Felicity in season four says that they bring out the best in each other.  I also really agree with AyChihuahua that it doesn't matter if I think Felicity deserves better (and I don't mean Ray) that if she loves and wants Oliver and he makes her happy - than more power to her.

 

What I'm really saying is that I kind of find the transformation unbelievable.  And I don't mean pre-island to post-island - as others have said, the island would change him "down to his bones" as Laurel likes to say.  I'm talking about from Oliver of season one who declared his undying love for Laurel 10 seconds after telling his best friend to go fight for her (he was still being mighty selfish at that point don't you think?).  Or Oliver of season two who slept with Laurel's sister again (after telling her he was going to make up all the wrongs he did to her) rather than encouraging Sara to mend her relationship with Laurel and not reopening a can of worms that would do no one any good (and I liked Sara and Oliver together - doesn't mean that I think the relationship was a good idea in the big picture).

 

So besides the arrogant, thinks he is the best person to be making decisions for everyone Oliver, and the moron Oliver who withholds vital information that would make everyone's life easier ( I know it's for plot purposes but it's still true), and the Oliver who just made really bad decisions throughout most of season three - there is also a selfish side to Oliver early on that's hard to dismiss even though I don't think the show runners realized they were writing him that way.

 

I have a hard time reconciling THAT with the puppy dog, head over heels Oliver who adores Felicity and seems likely to listen to her in every decision he has to make from now until the end of time.  I mean, I get that he is NOW the perfect boyfriend.  But I honestly don't think they did a great job of showing THAT transformation.  It's like he's a totally different guy for Felicity and that has just always seemed a bit like a fairy tale to me.

 

By the way - I still like season four olicity - I just have to kind of forget about some of the early stuff we've been discussing here regarding Oliver, Laurel, Sara, etc....

Edited November 29, 2015 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

I'm willing to give the show a complete pass in transitioning Oliver from sister-swapper to Felicity's A+ boyfriend, because it wasn't a gradual change on purpose. I'm pretty sure sometime mid-S2 they decided they needed to give an end to this version of Oliver, and this version of the romantic storyline within the hero's journey, and it had to be done quick, because once S3 started, that romantic storyline guiding the hero's journey was gonna be something else entirely.

 

And both the network and the writers room knew sister-swapper Oliver wasn't working, at least since late S1 [probably even earlier, when they were testing a bunch of actresses as a replacement love interest for Laurel]. So they made an executive decision to keep that transition confined to the second half of season two, and the moment Sara dumped Oliver, that was it -- that was the end of sister-swapper Oliver forever and ever. From 220 onwards, Felicity was Love Interest, and the romantic storyline was not the original premise anymore.

 

And from 220 right until Alex brought up sister-swapper Oliver in 405, the show actively ignored that all of that even happened. Fandom never forgot it, because being wanky is a way of life and all, but the show really really went out of its way to pretend it was all a terrible nightmare. And it also made sure to keep Felicity completely outside of it. Her romantic drama in S3 had nothing to do with sister-swapper Oliver in any way. Because that guy is dead, and what the show was trying to go for was "for the love of God, fandom, forget he ever existed. Monk Oliver is the new Oliver, deal with it already."

 

And... I get it. I also approve of it. I get it, because no writer in their right mind wants to keep writing a narrative that doesn't work. It's best to rip off the band-aid as quickly as possible, and move on to something else that works. And I approve of it, because sister-swapping Oliver was unbearable to watch. And the very last thing I wanted was for it to keep coming back into the narrative once it was dealt with.

[Ceylon5]

Hopeful advice from TV creators everywhere: "Suspend disbelief (and long-term memory), all ye who enter here..."

 

(Edited to clarify.)

Edited November 29, 2015 by Ceylon5

[Cerulean Blue]

The reason I'm willing to buy that Oliver with Felicity seems like a different guy than Oliver from season 1-2 as far as romantic relationships are concerned is that I've always thought that a lot of his behaviors around Laurel, Sara, and Tommy could be explained by his history with them. So he tended to regress a bit around those three since those relationships were established pre-island and he fell back into old patterns easily.

 

But his relationship with Felicity is post-island only, so he doesn't revert to his pre-island way around her. He had to establish new ways of being around her, and I thought that they were showing that as far back as episode 2.06 when he seemed remorseful at the end of the episode when he did the whole "Because of the life I lead..." speech when she looked hurt that he slept with Isabel. Of course, then Sara showed up and he went right back to pre-island Oliver in his relationship with her, but I do think it was established that he thought of his relationship with Felicity differently.

[quarks]

I'll also add that I don't think Oliver did declare his undying love for Laurel in season one - he said that he couldn't tell Tommy that he was no longer in love with her, and he identified Laurel with the life he could have once the whole vigilante thing was over.  And he paused to have a nice conversation about getting back together with her when he was on his way to STOP AN EARTHQUAKE DEVICE priorities, Oliver, priorities.  But - and these are all big buts - he never said "I love you" to her; he never told her the truth about how he was really spending his nights; and he made a point of saying that he was still the guy he was before the island, and Laurel was the only person who had seen that.

 

Except, fortunately for everyone else, Oliver wasn't still the guy he was before the island, since that guy sucked.  In the parallel situation with Felicity, Oliver still waited until he thought the vigilante thing was over before driving off with her, but a) told her he loved her before that, b) told her the truth before that, c) specifically stated not that he was still the guy he used to be before the island, but that he was something else, and wanted to find out what that was, with her. Turned out, gourmet cook. Who knew?

 

In any case, I see Oliver's attempt to get back together with Laurel at the end of season one less as an attempt at undying love, and more as a last ditch attempt to get his old life back - making this, in his mind, his final fight.

[Guest]

Yep, @quarks. The longer this show continues and the more we learn about Oliver, the more convinced I am that he never loved Laurel in the first place. His sole motivation in s1 was guilt and trying to save something that just couldn't be saved.

[Password]

*snort*

This conversation about the disastrous sister swapping and Oliver's relationship with Laurel comes up so often. It's actually cool to see the new chapter of Oliver Queen: boyfriend, cook extraordinaire.

And I have to agree with @dtissagirl about the show desperately wanting us to forget about the sister swapping. Season 2 was spent breaking down and destroying Oliver and Laurel's relationship by added details to their...thing. And season 3 was spent wiping Lauriver from memory by placing Felicity in the prime LI seat.

I'm all too willing to just go with it. Tickles me pink.

BTW Oliver and Felicity 5eva!

I've always thought that a lot of his behaviors around Laurel, Sara, and Tommy could be explained by his history with them. So he tended to regress a bit around those three since those relationships were established pre-island and he fell back into old patterns easily.

And this is why I loved TA. Felicity and Diggle allowed me to see new Oliver, not desperately clinging to a facade Oliver. I always preferred OTA scenes because I could like Oliver around them.

[statsgirl]

You know I never even considered that Sara and Oliver had hooked up before, but may be they did.  What I kind of think was a retcon was when the show established through the mom that Sara thought she was in love with Oliver.  My earliest impression was that she went because she had a crush and wanted to have some fun and she didn't think Oliver and Laurel would last anyway.

 

When you're 18 and impulsive, infatuation is love.  Sara had had a crush on Oliver for years and she really believed that she knew him better than Laurel did (true) and that she was a better fit for him than Laurel was.

 

None of the three of them were mature enough to know what an adult relationship is.  Sara was impulsive and had always been considered the wild child in her family (which was literally a 'get out of jail' card for her) and Laurel had a plan for her future, a man she was going to fit into it, and she was going full steam ahead with it.  As for Oliver, he grew up in a  home where Dad cheated repeatedly and Mom took him back and covered it up.  (12 year old Thea may have been unaware that Dad was a serial cheater but you can bet 22 year old Oliver wasn't.)  This was the model he had for a relationship and as long as he could get away with it and Laurel kept taking him back, why should he change?  This was fun.

 

I think the worst Oliver did in s1 was sleeping weth Laurel when he knew that Tommy was still in love with her.  I can see the attraction though, he thought that finally it was all going to be over, finally he could be with the woman he loved and it would all end happily.  Laurel was also there; the next episode after vowing to fight for her relationship with Tommy, she's giving up at the first sign that Oliver might still be interested in her.  Neither of them can be excused that occasion.

 

In any case, I see Oliver's attempt to get back together with Laurel at the end of season one less as an attempt at undying love, and more as a last ditch attempt to get his old life back - making this, in his mind, his final fight.

Yeah, this.  It was rotten to go behind Tommy's back like that but s1 Oliver, while way better than the guy in the flashbacks, still had a long way to go.

Although I do believe that Oliver could and should have treated Felicity better in many occasions, I attribute many of those occasions to plot issues and contrived reasons to keep them apart.

I think some of it had to do with Oliver's self-hate, which was a lot like Sara's.  "I've done so many terrible things in the past that I don't deserve to be loved like that."

 

I didn't mind Ray so much, although I cringed at the bad anvils for him and Felicity, until Public Enemy happened and he turned into a worse douche than Oliver had been.  Like so bad, he's the guy women warn their friends not to get involved with.

[Password]

You guys make me wanna rewatch season 1 and 2. For some reason I always had the impression (in season 1) that Oliver had settled down with Laurel. But then she moved too fast for him and he decided to make their relationship go 'splodey by hooking up with Sara. It was the only reasonable way (at the time) that I could understand Laurel staying with him.

Then season 2 happened and we found out actually Oliver was a cheating cheater that cheated THROUGHOUT the relationship and Laurel was with him because...errrr. There was that scene where Laurel told Sara "can't you be happy for me" or something? Now it seems Laurel was delusional about the relationship and what it was.

It makes me wish they spent more time on Laurel and Sara (yuck can't believe I wrote that) because I have a few unanswered questions.

[kismet]

Sometimes I feel like I must be the only person that thinks OQ did not treat FS all that badly for 3 seasons. He treated her very honestly and sometimes the emotions in that can be very raw. In s1 & s2, he was still figuring things out as to who he was, what his feelings were. I've always said a lot of his behavior stemmed from a depth of self-loathing not only for what he did during his 5yrs for Hell, but also for his douchebag ways pre-island. A s1 & s2 OQ was not in the right place or frame of mind to even consider a relationship with someone like FS, who had proven to be one of his closest partners even before things crossed over into a romantic or physical attraction. In s1 & s2, there were 2 people he was almost always honest to (Dig & FS), he wasn't even honest to himself. So him choosing to be more than a friend with FS was going to be a BIG thing for him. It was going to be a huge emotional hurdle for someone carrying a lot of baggage & suffering from PTSD.

As for s3, it was what it was. He didn't feel he could be with her and he did his best to let her go. To me that was the biggest indicator that he was actually taking the relationship and his feelings for her seriously. I know there is a difference of opinion on that & there is no sense in rehashing a s3 discussion of O&F relationship. People believe what they believe, and I'm ok with that.

In s4, the transition to OQ being a better man I think has been successful in his relationships. He still makes dumb mistakes every now and then. He still is learning to be a better man. But being with FS is helping him keep that balance and positive focus. He is a work in progress. But the difference between a present-day OQ & pre-island OQ, is that he is willing to change. He is also making progress and maintaining that level of progress. There are fewer & smaller regressions. So him being a better man is actually a reality & not just him saying he wants to be better.

 

As for FS, I think she gains a lot from being with OQ as well. She seems more balanced and confident as well. FS was not likeable when she was with RP, even if on paper it was the “better” relationship choice. Her behavior was more on the extremes of her personality. He either didn’t make her better, or in some cases brought out the weaker aspects of who she is. She is now the CEO of a multibillion dollar conglomerate. I do not think that the FS we met in s1 or even s2 would have had the confidence to be running the company.

 

I feel like s2 OQ & FS made the unconscious realization that they were better versions of themselves around each other. But realizing that doesn’t translate to being it in actual real life thing. Similar to OQ, s3 helped transition her from who OQ & FS became in s2 to who they are in s4. I also think that she has never once put up with OQ's bullsh*t from day 1, so if she wants to be with him. It’s her life, her choice. If she was my friend, I do not think I would question her relationship with a s4 OQ or s3b OQ. I would have had concerns with a s1 & s2 OQ for sure. But luckily, they were smart enough as writers & characters to avoid those relationship pitfalls in s1 & s2.

[nksarmi]

Yep, @quarks. The longer this show continues and the more we learn about Oliver, the more convinced I am that he never loved Laurel in the first place. His sole motivation in s1 was guilt and trying to save something that just couldn't be saved.

Which makes what he did to Tommy and Laurel worse, not better.  But I think it comes down to dtissagirl's assessment - please fandom please forget that guy existed and just move on to love sick Oliver who adores Felicity and go with it already!

[Genki]

I think the O/L hook-up was to get them over with ASAP after the S1 build and S2 was spent destroying O/L. 

 

I'm just glad that the main LI is no longer O/L nor is O/S and we have awesome canon Olicity that has built slowly and realistically from S2.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Genki

[dtissagirl]

It's their own damn fault that the sister swapping was resurrected in S2, because everything about Laurel and Oliver hooking up at the end of S1 was to lampshade how terribad that was. The narrative went OUT OF ITS WAY to make L/O perverse:

 

- Oliver's plan was to forget the year of vigilante-ing ever happened, and to never really tell Laurel about it.

- Oliver encouraged Tommy to fix things with Laurel, but the moment he realized he might have a shot at a normal life, he went after her anyway.

- TOMMY WATCHED THEM HOOKING UP, hello there narrative device to tell the audience this is a wrongbad ultimate betrayal.

- And then Tommy died a hero saving Laurel, while Oliver was too late to get there.

 

That was supposed to kill L/O dead once and for all. But then TROLOLOLOLS, the writers decided to bring Sara back from the dead in 201, and instead of the audience being able to forget L/O ever existed right out of the gate in S2, they had to address the sister-swapping elephant in the room.

 

It's actually sheer luck that at that point, the majority of the audience was just waiting for Oliver/Felicity to take over anyway. They spent everything from 201 until the 213 lunge setting up Oliver/Felicity big time, and then they ended up using Sara as the Love Interest Switch Facilitator. Which kept Felicity out of whatever leftover nastiness related to sister-swapping, and helped implode L/O once and for all. It threw Sara under the bus because she went from having an interesting redemptive journey to being narrative-less Temporary Love Interest Placeholder Until The Full Switcheroo Is Achieved in 223, but it more or less worked for Oliver and HIS hero's journey being guided by the love of the One Woman.

Edited November 29, 2015 by dtissagirl

[way2interested]

Sometimes I feel like I must be the only person that thinks OQ did not treat FS all that badly for 3 seasons. He treated her very honestly and sometimes the emotions in that can be very raw. In s1 & s2, he was still figuring things out as to who he was, what his feelings were. I've always said a lot of his behavior stemmed from a depth of self-loathing not only for what he did during his 5yrs for Hell, but also for his douchebag ways pre-island. A s1 & s2 OQ was not in the right place or frame of mind to even consider a relationship with someone like FS, who had proven to be one of his closest partners even before things crossed over into a romantic or physical attraction. In s1 & s2, there were 2 people he was almost always honest to (Dig & FS), he wasn't even honest to himself. So him choosing to be more than a friend with FS was going to be a BIG thing for him. It was going to be a huge emotional hurdle for someone carrying a lot of baggage & suffering from PTSD.

 

Oh, I never thought that Oliver treated Felicity badly at all. In fact, from the beginning, he's shown to really care about her and value and respect her. Like you also said, they're their better selves with each other. My idea of treating her better simply comes from the times that Oliver's actions showed a divergence from his normal behavior with Felicity (Him arguing with her in 210, him virtually ignoring her in 214, him shutting out a potential relationship with her without asking for her own insight in 301, him not informing her of his own reasoning or plans in 312, 315, and 322) that had a clear better option of how he could have and should have acted. Again, I believe that these had more contrived reasons (keeping Olicity apart for season 2 and 3) than simply just a character trait of Oliver treating Felicity badly. Plus, many of the times he is shown to be less-than nice to her have either some explanation (Oliver's self-loathing or his tendency to think he knows what's best) or some later scene that re-validates his love and respect for Felicity (him apologizing in 210, him sharing his thoughts and feelings with her in 320 and 323).

 

I dislike it when people try to justify disliking Olicity because of the idea that Oliver treats her horribly, since, no, he doesn't really. Like you said, most of the times he's ever not been loving and respectful towards her were times where he felt he was being brutally honest and had raw and racing emotions, and people should not be penalized for not being loving towards someone 100% of the time. It's not like Oliver purposefully tries to yell at her or hurt her feelings, even in s3. Yes, he has put her through the emotional wringer, but most of the times he was hurting just as much as she was, if not worse. The most important aspect is that consistently he is loving and respectful towards Felicity, and that's enough for me to accept the occasional hiccups of bad behavior.

Edited November 29, 2015 by way2interested

[looptab]

 

- TOMMY WATCHED THEM HOOKING UP, hello there narrative device to tell the audience this is a wrongbad ultimate betrayal.

- And then Tommy died a hero saving Laurel, while Oliver was too late to get there.

 

 

 

Interesting, I've never looked at that this way. When they showed Tommy watching them, I thought they were hinting at the betrayal being the final straw that would turn Tommy on his father's side. 

(By the way, huge deja-vu writing this post. I might have already stated something similar when this came up some other time, haha).

Edited November 29, 2015 by looptab

[Morrigan2575]

Interesting, I've never looked at that this way. When they showed Tommy watching them, I thought they were hinting at the betrayal being the final straw that would turn Tommy on his father's side.

(By the way, huge deja-vu writing this post. I might have already stated something similar when this came up some other time, haha).

If Lauiver had worked, I'm pretty sure that's the exact path the character would have taken. Malcom would have stayed dead, Tommy would have become evil and (eventually) ended up as the new Dark Archer. However, Lauiver failed out of the gate and Tommy was the sacrificial lamb. Edited November 29, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

Interesting, I've never looked at that this way. When they showed Tommy watching them, I thought they were hinting at the betrayal being the final straw that would turn Tommy on his father's side. 

Pretty sure that's what they wanted us to think. We were supposed to think Tommy would turn ~evil~ because he watched Oliver and Laurel hooking up [sex as the catalyst for evilness is a common trope, even] , but surprise! It turned out he was a hero.

But just having Tommy there watching was the way the narrative was saying "this is not a romantic sex scene. This is a plot device sex scene to set up Tommy's ultimate demise."

[calliope1975]

IFrom Lauiver had worked, I'm pretty sure that's the exact path the character would have taken. Malcom would have stayed dead, Tommy would have become evil and (eventually) ended up as the new Dark Archer. However, Lauiver failed out of the gate and Tommy was the sacrificial lamb.

 

I didn't want Tommy to go evil, but I would have liked to have had him stick around for the fallout of evil!Dad and suprise!Sister. Forever bitter I didn't get to see that play out, and while probably not fair, I'm going to blame Laurel for that as well. We could have had it all................ 

[lemotomato]

I didn't want Tommy to go evil, but I would have liked to have had him stick around for the fallout of evil!Dad and suprise!Sister. Forever bitter I didn't get to see that play out, and while probably not fair, I'm going to blame Laurel for that as well. We could have had it all................

We might have discussed this before, but this makes me wonder how the show would've turned out if Laurel had been killed instead of Tommy. We still could've gotten no-kill Oliver of season 2, motivated Sara to come back to Starling, with bonus Tommy on the path to becoming eeevil. It could've been an interesting story contrasting how the death of a loved one pushes Oliver to become more of a hero while turning Tommy into a villain.