Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tv echo]

Bromance alert - here's Laura Hurley's top 10 list of O & D moments...

 

Asker yourfelicitymyoliver asks:
Hi, Laura. I just wanted to say that I love reading your stuff and I wanted to know if you have a top 10 list of favorite Oliver and Diggle moments?

Aug 14, 2015 3:48 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/126689298481/hi-laura-i-just-wanted-to-say-that-i-love

Edited August 15, 2015 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

And more from Laura Hurley, this time on female friendships, specifically Laurel and Felicity, with Venn diagrams:

 

In my time on Tumblr, I’ve gotten a handful of asks about female friendship on Arrow. I’m all for it. There’s no shortage of fantastic female characters on the show, and exploring some of those dynamics could take the series in a fresh direction without forcing any sort of massive plot overhaul. The genre of comics on television has been very male-centric, and I am 100% on board with giving duos of ladies their due.

 

As long as it makes sense.

[tv echo]

Here Laura Hurley talks about what she sees as the differences between Oliver's relationship with Felicity as compared to his past romantic relationships...

 

anonymous asks:
hey! love your answers really!!!! i was wondering whta do you think are going to be the differences between Oliver and Felicity and Oliver with his other ex girlfirneds? i am talking mainly about Sara since she was the only one, till now, how was Oliver's girlfriend and partner in his night work
Aug 24, 2015 1:03 am
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/127455233861/hey-love-your-answers-really-i-was-wondering

[apinknightmare]

They failed Laurel in pretty much every way from the get go. The backstory between her and Oliver was insurmountably terrible, they were unable to balance writing her feelings toward Oliver (anger, etc) in a way that made her sympathetic even while the audience was also sympathetic toward Oliver, while watching him go through hell on the island and after. I mean, KC has a certain way of delivering her lines, but she isn't the one who wrote them. And they edited out a lot of material that would've softened her/made some of her actions make more sense.

I don't think I could've ever gotten behind O/L, mainly because there was TOO much history there, and most of it was gross, but at no point did they ever do her relationship or her character any favors.

[statsgirl]

I'm reacting to this a bit late but is this the first time Guggenheim or any other EP has actually used the phrase "lack of chemistry"? It just seems very pointed to me because it's a phrase that's been used repeatedly regarding SA/KC both by fans and media. Couple this with another recent interview where he said "We've got to pick a horse, or not pick a horse" and it really sounds like they're saying: "We've made our choice and it was because xyz." No more hedging, or being wishy-washy. I like it!

I think now that Olicity is canon, which only really happened in 3x23, they want to take the will they/won't they off the table and start talking about other aspects of the show. Yes, EBR was originally cast for one episode but (again) we decided to keep her.  No, it wasn't fanservice or pandering to the small vocal portion of the audience, we made the decision months before her first episode aired  Now can we please move on to talk about Damien Darhk and the other characters coming up this season?

 

I don't think they could have recast after the pilot because it would have been too obvious.  We notice it with Sara and that was a much much smaller role. I think sometimes when one character isn't working, they re-do their scenes  with a new actor but it would have been too expensive to re-do all that with Arrow.

 

The Green Arrow is a more minor superhero, less well known than the Flash, and he had a relationship with the Black Canary over some but not all of their iconic runs.  I'm sorry that people who tuned in to the show to see the Green Arrow end up with the Black Canary but it's not like Lois Lane and Superman, and even that has been changed in the comics.

 

 

But I accepted it, and I enjoy it for what it is now. But it has made me nervous about The Flash, because I'm telling you, if they do the same thing to Iris and fuck up WestAllen the way they did Oliver and Laurel, I will totally be out. That one I was much more invested in from the canon, so I'm warily heading into Season 2 over there, to see if there are clues that they've radically decided to change anything.

The problem with iris IMO has been in the writing, not the casting. I'm pretty sure they mean Barry/Iris to be endgame, they even killed of Eddie to smooth their way (and I really liked Iris with Eddie). 

[BkWurm1]

. But it has made me nervous about The Flash, because I'm telling you, if they do the same thing to Iris and fuck up WestAllen the way they did Oliver and Laurel, I will totally be out. That one I was much more invested in from the canon, so I'm warily heading into Season 2 over there, to see if there are clues that they've decided to radically change anything, since that was when it happened with Arrow.

All my spidey senses are telling me that WestAllen is endgame.  They need to do better IMO in writing them but they aren't bad together, it just feels like they haven't gotten the right circumstances for it to happen.  Next season  she's going to have to be allowed to morn Eddie but if that means that they can showcase their friendship, they will be golden.  That was always the best part of them. 

 

For example, if a TV series about Austen's Elizabeth Bennett were made that also included Mr. Darcy, I would be very upset if a new character usurped his role as love interest. I'd probably continue watching because I love Austen's story and because I'd have the expectation that the show would simply have to correct at some point and reinstall Mr. Darcy as the rightful love interest. This could be a bad analogy because I understand that Black Canary is much, much more than Green Arrow's love interest.

 

Ha!  I've seen something very close to your scenario.  It's called Lost in Austen.  http://www.tv.com/shows/lost-in-austen/  Only in this case it's Darcy that gets a different love interest while Elizabeth...well I don't want to spoil it for anyone interested and I really recommend it.  I love Pride and Prejudice but the circumstances were altered enough that the change felt natural and any attempt to follow canon for canon's sake the wrong direction.    It's a good example of how a different medium along with a few key changes really changes everything. 

 

But they did, so they radically changed things up because they had to, and in so doing it earned them a permanently pissy fanbase out there who will never get to see one of the biggest things from the GA canon. Those people are going to be resentful and bitter about this forever.

 

I wonder about that.  Smallville already had both Green Arrow and the Black Canary and could have gone there if they'd so decided but they went with what was happening on the show instead of the comics and while I'm sure there were critics, they were pretty quiet as far as I experienced.  I wonder if the fact that it has happened before - skipping a Canary Arrow romance in favor of a fan favorite - gave the Arrow Powers That Be the confidence to do something different again. 

[lemotomato]

I don't think you can blame people too much for being upset that they flat out won't be getting Green Arrow/Black Canary. If it's because they made a mistake by casting an actress that turned out to be a dud, then they fucked up, but still...that's a really huge thing to fuck up on, imo. They tried to redo it by turning Sara into BC, but there's no real way to take it back, unfortunately. I wouldn't blame people holding a grudge for that for the life of the show, to be honest. I doubt Green Arrow will get his own movie in the DC-verse anytime soon, so if there were fans of the character who are upset about that, I think they have pretty good reason to be.

The thing is, the show kind of did have GA/BC-- season 1 was essentially Oliver and Laurel finding their way back to each other (although subsequently realizing they shouldn't be together), and season 2 had Oliver and Sara-as-BC dating. Sure, it wasn't exactly like it was in the comics, but that's the nature of an adaptation. Besides, the show has a couple more seasons to go, and I wouldn't put it past the EPs to do something drastic like get rid of Felicity and circle back to GA/BC at the end of the series, when cancellation is imminent and ratings and buzz don't matter anymore.

 

I sometimes have a difficult time empathizing with the show's Black Canary fans because I had never heard of Green Arrow before I started watching the show. However, I can imagine that I'd be on the absolute pissed side of disgruntled if one of my favorite stories were adapted, but then radically changed. For example, if a TV series about Austen's Elizabeth Bennett were made that also included Mr. Darcy, I would be very upset if a new character usurped his role as love interest. I'd probably continue watching because I love Austen's story and because I'd have the expectation that the show would simply have to correct at some point and reinstall Mr. Darcy as the rightful love interest. This could be a bad analogy because I understand that Black Canary is much, much more than Green Arrow's love interest.

I'd also be more understanding of upset BC/GA fans if this were the case, but comics are not like novels, with a beginning, middle, and end. They're serial stories that change all the time depending on who takes over the writing. There isn't a single thing that's happened in comics-- love interests, origin stories, friends/enemies, deaths-- that hasn't been erased, re-written, or rebooted. People who complain the show isn't adhering to "comic canon" are really only referring to one time period in the life of the comic that they happened to enjoy. That's why I have very little patience for that particular talking point.

 

[EmilyBettFan]

It will be really stupid to get rid of Felicity. Also his last thought before "dying" was of Felicity. No amount of anything they do to try this Laurel/Oliver stuff will live up to that.

Then it would be fan service to do that at the end. It will be ridiculous.

[lemotomato]

After what was done to Sara and most of season 3, I'm rather pessimistic. I'm going to relish all the Olicity goodness while we have it, but I don't trust the writers/EPs at all.

[tarotx]

Creating a new BC with bringing Sara on didn't satisfy the BC fans so they killed her off. They thought we'll make her Laurel's motivational since the comic BC was also a second BC. That didn't work either.

The thing is this is all because BC fans were obsessed with the character name. Dinah Laurel Lance had to be BC or else. The show tried to work with the sort of iconic BC/GA pairing with bringing in Sara. And even though she showed why a BC really can't be a regular on a GA orgin story (The BC is too important to be a sidekick) (and there was still the sister ick) Sara and Oliver worked well on screen. They could have made BC someone Oliver worked well with bringing her in and out of the story. Leaving that option visablely on the table but still moving Oliver and the show forward. Imo.

Many adaptations change character names. Sara was a good BC in this verse but she had the wrong first name. For me it would be getting the fit and character of the story right more so than nane.

With the forcing of Laurel into BC it ruins The BC/GA dynamic because the actors don't mesh well and with Laurel's actual character potential.

Edited August 27, 2015 by tarotx

[tv echo]

I think there will be a lot of GA and BC fighting together in S4 (partly to appease the comics fans, partly because the Arrow EPs/writers love comics characters), plus more Oliver and Laurel bonding again as friends. If there's a massively positive fan reception, and if it works "organically" into the story, then I think the EPs will revisit the idea of those two together again in the future.

 

I hope not, because the Oliver & Felicity story has been very organically developed and makes sense in Oliver's hero journey, but "there's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip" - as they say.

Edited August 27, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

I agree. They absolutely had the chance to course correct with Sara, who IMO is BC in everything but name, but they chose to stick to their original plan of Laurel in that role. I understand and I'm sure there might be contracts and DC related reasons involved but at the same time I have little sympathy. It's all of their own making. 

 

Maybe they felt changing BC went too far? It's one thing to give Oliver a different love interest. That works because GA/BC weren't always together in canon. But it might be another to change characters completely. I don't agree but I wonder if that's how their thought/creative process worked out.

 

All that being said, I think we'll see an incarnation of GA/BC from now on. Not romantically (and who is to say that won't happen, I hope not and it's doubtful but this is TV and these writers will clearly try anything) but as team members and friends. I think after everything that has happened between O/L, making them friends again is the best anyone could hope for.

[Sakura12]

If this show lasts as long as Supernatural (which I doubt) then I can seem the revisiting L/O because I have yet to see any tv writers, write a continuous relationship that started on the show after the first season (also because they don't put the couple together until the 4th season or later). Couples already established/married before the show or secondary character romances that don't get a lot focus are different. Most are capable of those relationships. 

 

Geoff Johns the CCO of DC seems to love Sara's character and even called her The Black Canary. So I really wonder whose decision it was that she couldn't be Arrow's BC. I tend to think it was more of KC's contract thing, then a DC saying no thing. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

Maybe they felt changing BC went too far? It's one thing to give Oliver a different love interest. That works because GA/BC weren't always together in canon. But it might be another to change characters completely. I don't agree but I wonder if that's how their thought/creative process worked out.

 

This is where I'm at. I think they knew the *romance* part of their original plan wasn't gonna work right after the pilot, but I don't think their lack of confidence extended to Laurel as a character at that point.

 

I can see them going to DC right after the pilot with "I think we have to nix the GA/BC romance aspect". And then DC went "Oh, that's totally fine. Smallville did it too, and it worked out super well for them. We haven't had GA and BC interact in the comics for almost a decade anyway. And the last time they did was a book that failed -- OMG HI ANDREW KREISBERG, how are you? Sorry your book was a dud. Plus, we're all here at DC Comics forever afraid of Gail Simone's wrath, and she really really REALLY hates it when Dinah and Ollie are romantic, so she won't yell as us! DO IT."

 

The part about bringing in Sara is the one I'll be forever baffled with.

Edited August 27, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Guest]

This is where I'm at. I think they knew the *romance* part of their original plan wasn't gonna work right after the pilot, but I don't think their lack of confidence extended to Laurel as a character at that point.

 

I can see them going to DC right after the pilot with "I think we have to nix the GA/BC romance aspect". And then DC went "Oh, that's totally fine. Smallville did it too, and it worked out super well for them. We haven't had GA and BC interact in the comics for almost a decade anyway. And the last time they did was a book that failed -- OMG HI ANDREW KREISBERG, how are you? Sorry your book was a dud. Plus, we're all here at DC Comics forever afraid of Gail Simone's wrath, and she really really REALLY hates it when Dinah and Ollie are romantic, so she won't yell as us! DO IT."

 

The part about bringing in Sara is the one I'll be forever baffled with.

 

Yeah, I agree. I'm still confused as to why they bought Sara in too. I think they wanted a BC on the show sooner than later but in doing so they've effectively undermined Laurel as BC and it probably always will. Personally speaking, no matter how amazing Laurel becomes, I will always compare her to Sara and I will always wonder what could have been if they'd just let Sara's story play out. I really don't think there's any escaping that comparison either. It's out there always now. I honestly don't know what the hell they were thinking.

 

I mean, everything I hear about comic BC suggests she's greater than Oliver, is amazing in her own right, isn't a sidekick, has her own team etc..and the BC on Arrow is like the complete opposite of that. I see her as more of an inconvenience to Oliver's story than I do as someone I want to see more of. Even now there's still so much more hype and focus on Sara than there ever has been with Laurel. I just don't get it. 

 

And as for the GA/BC romance, even if they did try it again at some point in the future (entirely possible) I don't understand how it will work because the two actors are exactly the same, the lack of chemistry will always be there, and they'll always have a toxic history. So they can try as much as they want but it's not something I see working just because Laurel wears a leather suit now. Or something I want to see. Actually if it reaches that point I know for sure I won't be watching. But I have to question their sanity to even try something so void of chemistry and anything worth rooting for just for the sake of comic canon. It's madness to me. Oh well! 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Guest

[Ruby25]

Frankly, from the moment Sara came in in Season 2 and it was clear that she was meant to be the real Black Canary (and they gave her just about every single comic character trait that was identified with BC), that read as a pretty big slap in the face to the Laurel character, because it was clear that the writers knew and had decided that the BC character needed to go to somebody else.

 

But, having decided that, they were also stuck with Laurel, so they tried to twist things around to fit as best as they could, and that will always leave the impression that the real BC on the show is someone named Sara Lance, who did not exist in the comics and simply took over the identity of the character who was supposed to belong to someone else.

 

So that's pretty damn convoluted, but they're stuck with that tangled up history now. If they had figured out a way to rename Sara "Dinah" or something, that would have gone a long way towards fixing it, since that's a bit closer to paralleling the comics history of there being two BC's, one mother and daughter, but in this universe they could be sisters.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Ruby25

[Sakura12]

Sara Dinah Lance, name problem solved. I would've even taken Sara using the name Dinah Drake when she was in the LoA.  Since Dinah Drake-Lance is the current BC in the comics. 

 

Laurel has has nothing of comic BC but the name, everything else is now just being handed to her because (the sonic scream and a motorcycle). Why did they give Sara everything of comic BC, kill her and then just start handing everything off to Laurel without any reason for her to have any it? They had 2 full seasons to make Laurel earn her title, but they decided to be lazy with her and just use the excuse "because comics".

[tarotx]

Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics was inspired by her mom and dad. She worked her ass off to live up to what they taught and showed her. She had love and respect for her inspirations. Yes she went behind their backs to become BC but it didn't feel like a stolen identity but inspiration. Her parents just worried about her but she really wanted this for herself.

Laurel and Sara have a adversarial relationship even if deep down they love each other. Inspiration doesn't work in this type of relationship imo. It had to be better mended first. It just feels like single white femaling with the way it was done. Even giving Laurel Nyssa...

Edited August 27, 2015 by tarotx

[Guest]

I perhaps could have bought the storyline and Laurel's transition to BC if they had shown that Laurel wanted to honor Sara. And maybe they intended it to come across that way but I never once got that impression in s3. It felt more like Laurel wanted to do it because it helped the 'fire within her' and it was akin to the feeling she got from her addiction and I don't know, it felt so weak and mostly selfish. It was too rushed, all of it. 

[Morrigan2575]

I perhaps could have bought the storyline and Laurel's transition to BC if they had shown that Laurel wanted to honor Sara. And maybe they intended it to come across that way but I never once got that impression in s3. It felt more like Laurel wanted to do it because it helped the 'fire within her' and it was akin to the feeling she got from her addiction and I don't know, it felt so weak and mostly selfish. It was too rushed, all of it.

 

IIRC that is what they were going for, KC said as much at TCAs.  She also said Laurel was going from avenging her sister, to honoring her sister to becoming her sister...so yeah Laurel became BC because of SFW/Drug Addiction!  Woohoo!

[Guest]

IIRC that is what they were going for, KC said as much at TCAs.  She also said Laurel was going from avenging her sister, to honoring her sister to becoming her sister...so yeah Laurel became BC because of SFW/Drug Addiction!  Woohoo!

 

Ew, yeah. I remember that quote now. I definitely don't remember the honoring of her sister, although it's entirely possible I blocked it out. I tend to zone out during those scenes (sorry!). Unless becoming BC is her way of honoring her? That doesn't seem likely considering Sara would have hated Laurel going out there and putting herself in danger. She didn't want that life for her.

 

But there was definitely the need to avenge Sara, I saw that, mostly in the earlier episodes of the season. But I mostly saw more single white female than anything else. The whole thing made me uncomfortable, especially the scenes with Nyssa where there were definite undertones. I didn't like it. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. I can understand perfectly why they switched up Love Interests from Laurel to Felicity. And I also get HOW they did it, while [mostly] conserving their original plan for how the romantic arc would influence Oliver's journey. They kept the story structure almost intact, they only changed internal character motivation.

 

Laurel and Sara... I don't understand ANY of it. Which UUUUUGH. I really don't like not understanding things.

[Starfish35]

I know the producers and her fans insist that Laurel was always going to be BC and this was always the long game plan, and Sara was just a part of it, etc etc.

I'm not sure I believe it. I've been thinking about it lately, and here's one thing I don't understand. If Laurel was always going to end up being BC and there was never any idea of switching that from Laurel to Sara, why did KC seem to believe she was out of it once Caity Lotz came along? She's said as much at her cons, that when Caity came, she was disappointed about it, but was like "well that's the way things go sometimes." I'm not criticizing KC for her reactions btw, I'm just saying some things don't add up for me. Why would KC not have known that Sara was just temporary and that Laurel would still eventually become BC? I mean, maybe she meant that she was just disappointed that it was going to take longer to get there than she thought, but that's not the way I took it (and maybe I'm misremembering something about what she said - my apologies if so).

I guess I still think maybe Sara was supposed to be their replacement BC, but something happened in the latter part of season two that changed their mind and caused them to go back to Laurel. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me, but of course it's entirely speculation on my part.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

Over in no mans land, I've been constantly told that Sara was merely the proto Canary like Yow Fei was to the Arrow or Winterborne was to Slade on the island (same mask). That did seem to be what they initially said before season two but Sara was so much bigger a character than any other of their examples it doesn't sit right with me.

[Guest]

Over in no mans land, I've been constantly told that Sara was merely the proto Canary like Yow Fei was to the Arrow or Winterborne was to Slade on the island (same mask). That did seem to be what they initially said before season two but Sara was so much bigger a character than any other of their examples it doesn't sit right with me.

 

I've seen that explanation before and it doesn't fit at all. We barely saw Yao Fei and Winterborne. We saw a lot of Sara, in flashbacks and present day. We saw her fight, her motivations, her relationships, her fears. She wasn't a placeholder or a proto Canary. She was fully characterized.

 

Nope. That doesn't work for me at all.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Guest

[Starfish35]

Well yes, and that's it. I mean, even without KC's comments, Sara was Black Canary in all but name. She had the outfit, she had the skills, she had the Canary Cry bombs, she had the Clocktower, Sin, the motorcycle..... (ETA: And as Angel12d points out, they spent a year fleshing out the character through flashbacks, something they haven't done for any other character besides Oliver. ) Why if she was just a proto-Canary did they go that far with it? And now they've put themselves in the position of having to redo it all for Laurel. She's always going to be a rerun, basically. Why put themselves deliberately in that position? I see no sense in it.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

They pretty much made Sara the Real Black Canary and Laurel the poor copy cat. Now with Laurel once again fueling Sara's storyline just like she did in S2. It was never Sara helping Laurel's storyline like they said it was. It was Laurel being a small part of Sara's hero origin storyline. 

 

Their decision to bring Sara back to life also screams "I've made a huge mistake". Then her Resurrection was all anyone talked about during the Legends of Tomorrow announcement. With Sara back again, that makes Laurel even more unnecessary. The BC doesn't need to be in Arrow's story anymore, he's got his team of partners, Flash as his team and LoT has the better trained Canary and a team of other heroes. 

[Chaser]

The Sara/Laurel relationship reminds me of the Oliver and Laurel relationship. As in the original idea failed to translate unto the screen. There was a lot of tell but very little show. I saw an adversial relationship, one that could quickly became competitive. It would have been so much more interesting if they had embraced that aspect and worked into Laurel's motivation. I want guilt and a feeling of failure. I don't want warm and fuzzies because that wasn't there relationship.

 

A proto-Canary would have worked better if they had actually made Sara proto. But they made her a full developed Black Canary. The abilities, backstories, relationships. If they had re-introduced Sara with the abilities but not the outfit or the sonic cry. It would have worked in Laurel's favor. But now Laurel is lesser-Canary.

[dtissagirl]

It all looks to me like showrunners having to appease two different masters at the end of S1. The CW on one side, wanting to stick with KC because she's been an in-house talent for years and years, and the WB on the other, desperately wanting a bad ass lady character in a catsuit, because Marvel is about to put Agents of SHIELD on TV, and has given ScarJo a principal role in Cap2.

 

And here's the problem they had: it couldn't be KC because they didn't establish Laurel as a badass lady in a catsuit. So they had to bring someone else in. Hence the search for an actress who could do stunts, including doing screen tests with Stephen.

 

But I cannot explain killing Sara, and giving Laurel everything Sara had to creepy SWF levels. And then bringing Sara back. That part I do not get.

[lemotomato]

The Sara/Laurel relationship reminds me of the Oliver and Laurel relationship. As in the original idea failed to translate unto the screen. There was a lot of tell but very little show. I saw an adversial relationship, one that could quickly became competitive. It would have been so much more interesting if they had embraced that aspect and worked into Laurel's motivation. I want guilt and a feeling of failure. I don't want warm and fuzzies because that wasn't there relationship.

This is a great comparison. I was trying to put my finger on why I just didn't buy into the sisterly love aspect, at least from Laurel's side, and I suspect it's how the show decided to portray their first reunion after Sara comes back from the dead: by having Laurel throw things at her and accuse her of stealing her life. It's just like Laurel's first scene with Oliver in the pilot, where her first interaction with someone she supposedly loves is antagonistic and downright mean. In both cases, we're supposed to be understanding of Laurel's reactions-- she's a spiraling addict when she finally sees Sara and she stewed in 5 years of betrayal and grief when she saw Oliver-- but to have such negative first reactions scenes really undermined the warm, loving relationships that the show expected me to buy in later on. 

 

For me, the Laurel/Sara scenes always felt a little off, even when they were in a good place. They never felt as genuine as Sara's scenes with Team Arrow, or Oliver, or Lance. I'd like to blame the bad introduction rather than bad chemistry, but I guess it's moot at this point.

Edited August 27, 2015 by lemotomato

[NumberCruncher]

Bringing this over from the Laurel thread:

Re Guggie's recent comment about lack of chemistry, that's really not KC's fault (or SA's, at least in S1 when he was still trying with LL).  I don't think she's much of an actress, but the writing for her from the pilot on was just a disaster.  Chemistry is what it is, but they did LL zero favors with the terribad writing, and trying to blame LL's failure entirely on KC/the anti-chemistry is really unfair.

I also don't think it's KC's fault that the chemistry didn't work out with Stephen--sometimes it's just really not there--but I do think Stephen at least realized things were not clicking her pretty early on and that played a part in why the romantic Oliver/Laurel scenes were so painfully awkward compared to his scenes with both Helena and McKenna, both with whom I thought he had good chemistry. To me, it felt more and more like he was phoning in the Oliver/Laurel scenes. I don't know if that's because he hated their awful backstory (which, after all, was pretty disgusting) or his acting style simply doesn't mesh well with Katie's, but whatever the reason was, it was a big problem. Unfortunately once TPTB realized it as well, KC was the one who suffered because it left them scrambling to find another direction to take her character since they clearly couldn't do their big, sweeping GA/BC love story anymore. Oh what headaches and heartaches could have been avoided with a simple, 10-minute chemistry test.

[apinknightmare]

Oh what headaches and heartaches could have been avoided with a simple, 10-minute chemistry test.

 

It seems to me that since the network seemed to be big on hiring Katie, that a chemistry test would've been a bad thing for Stephen. Wouldn't they have hired someone else for the job if they wanted Katie that badly? I guess it's impossible to know how that would've worked out - whether she would've been cut or he would've, but it's one of those things now where I can't imagine anyone else in the role at this point, so if it means we got to keep SA as Oliver, then I'll happily watch them be awkward, haha.

Edited August 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[NumberCruncher]

It seems to me that since the network seemed to be big on hiring Katie, that a chemistry test would've been a bad thing for Stephen. Wouldn't they have hired someone else for the job if they wanted Katie that badly? I guess it's impossible to know how that would've worked out - whether she would've been cut or he would've, but it's one of those things now where I can't imagine anyone else in the role at this point, so if it means we got to keep SA as Oliver, then I'll happily watch them be awkward, haha.

I don't get the impression though that it would have necessarily meant no Stephen. Greg Berlanti seemed pretty intent on having him play the role and probably would have pushed back against the network. After all, they had to get the main character casting right regardless of whom the network wanted for a supporting character (and yes, I do consider Laurel in that category because every except Oliver is one, IMO). I get that it's a CW show but it's not like Berlanti was some lightweight showrunner either.

[apinknightmare]

I get that it's a CW show but it's not like Berlanti was some lightweight showrunner either.

 

 

I wasn't implying that he is? I was just wondering if a chemistry test would've been a positive for SA fi there was someone in the running who DID have chemistry with KC. Obviously no one cared enough about it to do one, so it's not like it matters anyway.

Edited August 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[NumberCruncher]

I wasn't implying that he is? I was just wondering if a chemistry test would've been a positive for SA fi there was someone in the running who DID have chemistry with KC. Obviously no one cared enough about it to do one, so it's not like it matters anyway.

I know you weren't implying that. I wasn't trying to be offensive. I'm just saying that we keep hearing that the network wanted KC but had they bothered to test her together with SA, maybe even they could have been convinced otherwise.

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, I 100% think SA cannot stand LL.  It's really kind of hilarious.  (I have no idea what he thinks or feels about KC; I am speaking only about what he thinks/feels about LL.)

[SmallScreenDiva]

This is a great comparison. I was trying to put my finger on why I just didn't buy into the sisterly love aspect, at least from Laurel's side, and I suspect it's how the show decided to portray their first reunion after Sara comes back from the dead: by having Laurel throw things at her and accuse her of stealing her life. It's just like Laurel's first scene with Oliver in the pilot, where her first interaction with someone she supposedly loves is antagonistic and downright mean. In both cases, we're supposed to be understanding of Laurel's reactions-- she's a spiraling addict when she finally sees Sara and she stewed in 5 years of betrayal and grief when she saw Oliver-- but to have such negative first reactions scenes really undermined the warm, loving relationships that the show expected me to buy in later on. 

 

For me, the Laurel/Sara scenes always felt a little off, even when they were in a good place. They never felt as genuine as Sara's scenes with Team Arrow, or Oliver, or Lance. I'd like to blame the bad introduction rather than bad chemistry, but I guess it's moot at this point.

 

I didn't buy the sisterly love from Sara either, not after the lunge. I thought the writers did a great job setting up Sara's concern for her family, especially her sister in the first part of S2, but then totally erased that with the lunge and the subsequent relationship with Oliver. The lunge was impulsive but it seems to be consistent with how she's behaved in the past. It also smacks of childish revenge and selfishness, again traits consistent with younger Sara, IMO. Laurel is angry at her, so let's do the one thing that would make Laurel even more furious. I know, I know, it's really more about finding someone who accepts her after her family pretty much abandoned her (somebody pointed out just a few days ago about how the Lance parents didn't even go after the daughter who was suicidal only a few hours ago). But yeah, let me get back into a relationship with the guy who is partly to blame for breaking up my family, take him to dinner with me and rub our smiles in my sister's face. Is it any wonder I find it so difficult to buy their sisterly love and Laurel's "I want to honor my sister." *sigh*

 

Edited to change "did" to "abandoned her"

Edited August 28, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[AyChihuahua]

People on this board are so smart.  They often point out things I totally miss.  Unfortunately most of it doesn't make the show look better, but instead worse, but it's still great.  (I so wish some of the smart posters here could give me a convincing unifying theory of why S3 Oliver wasn't the idiotic ahole I perceived...no luck so far, but even Einstein couldn't make the impossible possible.)

[statsgirl]

I don't see the lunge as Sara wanting a relationship with the guy who caused all these problems as much as wanting someone who would accept her and comfort her when her sister has just rejected her and her parents didn't do a thing about it in spite of thinking Sara had been dead for years.  (More evidence for the theory that Laurel was the special one.)  After that, it seemed to me to be a FWB kind of thing where they found solace in each other because for both of them their first choice was impossible (Nyssa for Sara, Felicity for Oliver).

 

There is no way to justify Sara inviting Oliver to that family dinner but unfortunately he had to be there in order to have that scene in the hallway with Laurel to shut the door on Lauriver. (And still people were hoping for it!)  Can anyone think of another way they could have done it?

 

I don't know if a chem test between SA and KC would have made any difference in the casting if the suits were insisting on KC and the show wouldn't have been what it is without SA.  Maybe at best they would have dropped the 'star-crossed lovers' aspect and decided to move Oliver past Laurel faster. On the other hand, they knew from the pilot that Lauriver was very problematic and yet they still pushed it for most of s1.

[kismet]

It seems to me that since the network seemed to be big on hiring Katie, that a chemistry test would've been a bad thing for Stephen. Wouldn't they have hired someone else for the job if they wanted Katie that badly? I guess it's impossible to know how that would've worked out - whether she would've been cut or he would've, but it's one of those things now where I can't imagine anyone else in the role at this point, so if it means we got to keep SA as Oliver, then I'll happily watch them be awkward, haha.

I think SA had it locked down as a front contender early on in auditions. Perhaps that's why they forgoed the chemistry test, since the actors were pretty much already chosen. I wonder though if they had done a chemistry test at least it could have informed the narrative & characterizations better.

That back story was horrible. It would haves taken a lot of chemistry to overcome that. When your starting point is so low, you're more careful with choices. For example, choosing to make it a random girl instead of her sister he took on the trip would have been a way to not sabotage the relationship from the beginning. And if they really wanted the sister swapping, they could have revealed it later in season, so that it didnt influence or define the relationships negatively from the start. If they saw the chemistry that Sa & Kc bring together it might have better informed the writers to create a better history/back story more customized to their energies, skills & strengths.

  

Oh, I 100% think SA cannot stand LL.  It's really kind of hilarious.  (I have no idea what he thinks or feels about KC; I am speaking only about what he thinks/feels about LL.)

Totally agree with that statement! Perhaps in S1 there was a little residual aching or longing, but I think that was more nostalgia than LL herself. Again, not saying it has anything to do with KC. But the impression I get is that SA cannot tolerate LL much at all.

[Sakura12]

I'm going to go with they wanted to put GA and BC together and couldn't do that with Laurel, so Oliver and Sara were suddenly a thing. And they needed to keep Olicity apart for more seasons. 

 

When in fact they could've accomplished most everything just keeping Oliver and Sara as friends. Laurel could see that Oliver and Sara spend a lot of time together or she could see them sneak off somewhere and think that they are dating, get mad and have her blow up at them scene. Oliver could still tell her off about her drinking and blaming everyone else for her problems. 

[NumberCruncher]

I don't know if a chem test between SA and KC would have made any difference in the casting if the suits were insisting on KC and the show wouldn't have been what it is without SA.  Maybe at best they would have dropped the 'star-crossed lovers' aspect and decided to move Oliver past Laurel faster. On the other hand, they knew from the pilot that Lauriver was very problematic and yet they still pushed it for most of s1.

I think that's probably because they had already gotten the ball rolling in the pilot episode. and it would have been really hard for them to suddenly drop something that they made so integral to the plot right off the bat. They probably did notice it wasn't working out as they planned but maybe they were waiting to gauge the audience's reaction before completely changing the show's direction. We all know that they usually have 4 or 5 episodes in the can before the show even premieres so that might have played into why the course correction didn't happen sooner. They had to have some way to tie it all up in a way that made sense so I understand it took them well into S1 before they could move away from O/L. They didn't have a solid alternative at that point but you could see they were at least trying with some of the female guest stars. Even when EBR showed up in E3 how could they have ever known she was "the one" since she was a tiny one-off character? I don't think she was on their radar screen as a potential love interest until the EPs kept seeing the spark in her scenes with SA, but those only happened because it took several episodes into S1 to work Felicity into the main storyline. Considering the production timeline, I can't blame the show too much for not immediately changing course on O/L.

[kismet]

I actually rooted for l/o to get back together in s1. I thought it had potential as a lost lovers find way back together. I could see the potential for a few seasons of will they/won't they. But then they kept LL too far out of the secret loop for too long.

You could see moments of sabotage by the writers sprinkled thoughout the show from script to acting, even editing & music choices.They started sacrificing Tommy for it. First by that awful betrayal of OQ. Complete brocode violation! And then by actually killed him. (Still not over that) :-( By the time they brought in Sara the writing was on the wall.

The lunge was the final nail in L/O coffin. You can't go back to guy who has willingly chosen your sister over you twice. I'm not even sure how you can ever repair your sisterly bond after that. I think I'm more angry they never bothered to address the fractures in that sisterly relationship. No wonder so few of us believe LL is actually inspired by her sister's death. Her vigilantism as substitution for her addiction just makes more sense.

The chemistry between FS & OQ actually had little bearing on my feelings towards L/O. Trust me I loved their sparks but I wasn't full out rooting for them until mid season s2 when it was obvious how healthy O/F were together and how toxic O/L were around each other without any relationship at all.

[dtissagirl]

I do wonder how early in S2 they decided they were gonna kill Sara to make Laurel happen. We know from Caity Lotz that she knew Sara was gonna die when she filmed the S2 finale, but maybe they decided it all much earlier -- around the same time they decided to pick a definite lane with Felicity, maybe?

 

Because Sara's narrative role was abruptly changed mid-season to fit the new status quo. Again, we know this because Caity Lotz has mentioned she and Stephen were not at all playing Sara and Oliver as a potential couple, until they got the script for 213 and had to change it [forever LOLing at dumb showrunners who do this, because IT SHOWS ONSCREEN].

 

But from 201 until the lunge, Sara had her own storyline of *trying to become something other than a deadly assassin*, and desperately wanting to protect her family from herself and her past. Plus, she played a contrasting role to Slade in Oliver's journey. Of the people who went through hell, Slade went crazy in the head, Sara became an assassin who wants out of that life, and Oliver's trying to be a non-lethal vigilante. That was a pretty good set up that they fucked up in 2B in exchange for ~shocking twists~.

 

And even worse: when Sara and Oliver got together, it was like her entire journey was stalled so she could facilitate other characters' storylines. She was a plot device used in killing Laurel/Oliver dead, adding to Laurel's downward spiral, and being the sleight of hand that set up the Oliver/Felicity gotcha in the finale.

 

I mean, Sara tried to kill herself as to avoid going back to the LoA, and she would have succeeded too if it weren't for Oliver's magic herbs. That should have been the pivotal moment in her hero's journey, but instead she became "the girlfriend". No one ever mentioned the suicide attempt ever again, and there was exact no character development for Sara outside of her relationship with Oliver... until she broke up with him. And then she got back her storyline [going back to the LoA in exchange for their help defeating Slade], but at that point I'm pretty sure the EPs already knew she was a dead woman walking.

[NumberCruncher]

The chemistry between FS & OQ actually had little bearing on my feelings towards L/O. Trust me I loved their sparks but I wasn't full out rooting for them until mid season s2 when it was obvious how healthy O/F were together and how toxic O/L were around each other without any relationship at all.

This was me too. I wasn't a big Olicity shipper until well into S2. TBH, I wasn't really following the show for the romance aspect. L/O was just there for me in S1--didn't love them, didn't hate them...I just didn't care. I was much more interested in everything else happening on the show. That continued into S2 when I saw that O/F genuinely seemed to like and care for each other and that respect/support made each of them better people. It was only at that point that I saw them in a romantic light. Fast forward to S3 and with the rest of the show falling apart, O/F was really the only thing holding my interest and even that was trying my patience. I had no interest in Ray and Felicity because it was just throwing a "romance" in there for the sake of it and that's not what drew me to the show in the first place. I really do hope that all of the promises the EPs are making that the show will find a good balance in S4 are true. I'd like to be able to like the whole show (or at least most of it) again.

[Sakura12]

I have no idea when they decided to throw Sara in the garbage. To me it seemed like they wanted their already a badass Black Canary and found Caity Lotz for the role. Which I think someone must've pushed for her for the role since the CW told her she didn't have the right body type. (Because you know having an athletic body to play a superhero is something you don't want.) They got to play with their BC and GA fighting side by side, then I guess someone told them that KC is supposed to be BC and Sara got tossed in the garbage. 

 

For me it's still they've always managed to make Sara more important to the overall plot than Laurel. Sara had a connection to all the storylines in S2. Even now  they are giving Sara her own show once again making her more important to the overall connected universe they are showing us. While Laurel is basically not really needed at all. 

[statsgirl]

I wonder if they changed Sara's storyline because Oliver/Felicity was going too fast and they needed something to slow it down. Oliver sleeping with Sara certainly managed that.  And after that, as she joined Team Arrow as a regular, they realized that instead of being a Canary place-saver, Sara had become the Black Canary, a role they were saving for Laurel, and it was kill Sara off or make her the real Black Canary.  It really seems like they make show decisions and don't realize the effect of those decisions until it's too late (See: depressing season 3.)

 

By the time of the lunge, O/L was dead in the water.  We'd had Laurel telling Oliver it was a no-go in 2x01 and they might have got beyond that but there was no writing bringing them closer together.  In fact, they seemed to be in separate shows for the most part.  The lunge, along with the hallway confrontation, was the writing giving us yet another nail in the coffin.

 

I think that's probably because they had already gotten the ball rolling in the pilot episode. and it would have been really hard for them to suddenly drop something that they made so integral to the plot right off the bat. They probably did notice it wasn't working out as they planned but maybe they were waiting to gauge the audience's reaction before completely changing the show's direction. We all know that they usually have 4 or 5 episodes in the can before the show even premieres so that might have played into why the course correction didn't happen sooner. They had to have some way to tie it all up in a way that made sense so I understand it took them well into S1 before they could move away from O/L.

I never shipped O/L because I always thought even he deserved someone better.  She was awful to Oliver, which was understandable, but she was also awful to Tommy and the only thing he'd done was be Oliver's friend.  But I still don't understand why it was important to revive Lauriver in the last few episodes of s1 because it made Oliver a terrible douchebag to hurt his best/only friend like that.

[NumberCruncher]

I never shipped O/L because I always thought even he deserved someone better.  She was awful to Oliver, which was understandable, but she was also awful to Tommy and the only thing he'd done was be Oliver's friend.  But I still don't understand why it was important to revive Lauriver in the last few episodes of s1 because it made Oliver a terrible douchebag to hurt his best/only friend like that.

Oliver sleeping with Laurel was a shitty thing to do to Tommy, but I look at it as accomplishing two narrative goals: 1) the showrunners likely believed that in order to close the O/L book they needed the audience to believe that they actually explored the relationship in its entirety (meaning we saw sex and everything) so that they could once and for all move on, and 2) I think it was intentional that the writers made Oliver look like the bad guy through all of it because they needed him to contrast the eventual heroics and selflessness of Tommy. Oliver fails to save the city and loses his best friend (who also turns out to be the better man), thus ending in the dark place we find him in at the beginning of S2. Oliver then gets to spend the entirety of S2 proving himself a hero in order to live up to Tommy's legacy.

Edited August 28, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[wonderwall]

Thinking about it, I was confused before when I fell in love with Oliver and Felicity. It was a toss up between 1x23 or 2x01. But I realized that I fell in love with Felicity's character in 1x23 and I fell in love with Oliver/Felicity in 2x01. 

 

I think what was so great about 2x01 was that a lot happened Olicity-wise that made me feel like they could be more, that they would be wonderful together: 

• Felicity jumping out of a plane to help bring Oliver back - Shows how far she would go for him.
• Oliver saved Felicity from that mine and when Oliver didn't get off of Felicity immediately, it was the first indication that the tides were changing and I liked that change
• Felicity made Oliver smile (possibly his first smile after the undertaking) and it was effortless on her part. 
• Oliver told Felicity he missed her and it was genuine and warm and just a nice moment
• Oliver comes back and Felicity pushes Oliver to become the vigilante again to reach his potential and to not let him give up
• Oliver tells someone (I don't remember who) that people tend to fail to see the real him, and the camera pans to Felicity who looks at him. That's the first time I saw how deep their relationship runs and how important they are to one another
• Oliver doesn't want to kill anymore and Felicity supports him 100%
• Felicity even gets Oliver a custom made bow and Oliver thinks it's perfect. Another indication to show just how well Felicity knows Oliver. 

 

A lot happened in this episode. And they're all little moments but put them all together and you can see that the writers started wanting people to support this couple as early as 2x01. 

[Chaser]

LOL.

 

I liked his shock when she poked him in the chest. I started shipping them when she broke the coffee maker.