Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

Yeah, it seems to be back and forth, on and off, but that's their thing. And the fact that they even got married shows how significant the pairing has been to the GA world.

 

Forget about comics for one second. Forget about comics, forget about Oliver/Laurel's legacy and just focus on the show. From a narrative standpoint, would you really want to watch a couple who lied, cheated, betrayed, tore the other person's family apart, continued to lie, where one half has a secret child with another woman, are constantly fighting and yelling at one another, never sees the best in the other and doesn't believe in them, doesn't help the other person to be a better person... etc.?

 

Again, purely from a narrative standpoint disregarding the comics, don't you think that both Laurel and Oliver would regress as characters if they ever did get back with one another? I'd certainly have less respect for Laurel if she ever got back with him. And I'd roll my eyes at Oliver because the only way I can see him ever being with another woman is if Felicity dies (which I don't want). 

 

In the end from a narrative standpoint, Oliver has made insane declarations towards Felicity that are really really difficult to take back unless she died. And even then, if he ends up with Laurel after Felicity dies (knock on wood) that would make Laurel his second choice. Now wouldn't anyone who's a Laurel fan want better for her?

 

The show has deviated from the comics so much, why is it impossible to believe that they'd deviate from a romantic standpoint? 

[tarotx]

The broadstroaks of Oliver Queen is of a womanizer...

[Sakura12]

We also can't forget that Oliver hooked up with Sara again the minute she came back. If Oliver and Laurel were end game, why is Oliver always choosing her sister over her? 

 

They gave us the GA/BC hook up and team up with Oliver and Sara. Sara was the Black Canary in Season 2 no matter what anyone says. She wore black and had all the skills and traits of comic book BC. 

[Password]

It could happen at the expense of the story the show is telling. Oliver is so different to the Oliver Queen of the comics I don't think you can make an argument that characterwise they are sticking to broadstrokes at all. We don't know what the writers intend to do, but right now Laurel and Oliver make no sense whatsoever.

[ruby24]

 

Again, purely from a narrative standpoint disregarding the comics, don't you think that both Laurel and Oliver would regress as characters if they ever did get back with one another? I'd certainly have less respect for Laurel if she ever got back with him. And I'd roll my eyes at Oliver because the only way I can see him ever being with another woman is if Felicity dies (which I don't want). 

 

But again, we haven't even seen the dynamic they had in the comics yet. The way she was introduced wasn't as a fellow costumed superhero who he teams up with, I guess because they wanted to show her own origin story.

 

And yeah, I can get behind the Felicity death thing, if that's what has to happen. Once again, on Smallville, that's basically what happened to Lana and a lot of people felt like him being with Lois did feel like a second choice, but Clark has to be with Lois, so however they got there, they did get there in the end and stayed true to that character, because they knew they had to.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[quarks]

 

Still doesn't mean they won't do it obviously, of course they could. I'm just skeptical, given that there are comic book writers involved here who know that history.

 

Yes, but one of the big things now is breaking that history - playing with canon, changing things around, doing unexpected things.  To the point where this is an editorial mandate from multiple presses, and you will have a better chance of selling your pitch/story if you promise to play with canon.

 

That doesn't mean that some purely canonical stuff isn't still getting made and making tons of money - the recent Cinderella springs to mind - and quite a few things that tried to play with canon completely flopped (this is a long list). And yes, if you are dealing with something that isn't just canon, but a major U.S. trademark (hi, Superman!) the pressure will be to stick with the canon.  But Time Warner, the parent company in question here, is going to point to all sorts of things where they made changes to canon which still made tons of money (The Hobbit - strictly on box office performance here.)

 

If canon works - for instance, with Barry/Iris, which seems to be slightly more popular than Barry/Caitlin, as far as I can tell - then sure, a television show can stick with it, though I still expect Flash to play out both pairings. But Arrow can also look at, say, Once Upon a Time, which for all the complaints it gets, is still doing pretty well ratings wise four seasons in, despite hooking up Snow White's Evil Queen with Robin Hood, which is breaking a 500 year old canon in pretty much every way possible, and try other options.

Edited May 1, 2015 by quarks

[Starfish35]

I don't think anyone doubts that if Laurel and Oliver had worked onscreen, that they would have gone with that. There would be no Olicity. Lauriver was very clearly the original intention. But when you're doing a predestined pairing onscreen, you have to be very very careful in your casting, and that your onscreen couple actually has chemistry. And they weren't. They didn't screen test SA and KC (and in my opinion KC was badly miscast for the part), and they also badly misjudged how the audience would react to a backstory that included him cheating on her with her sister. So what do you do then when your intended canon couple is going over with the audience like a lead balloon? Do you doggedly continue forward, audience reaction be damned? Do you re-cast? Or do you seize on an accidental opportunity to redeem things (Felicity Smoak's Easter Egg appearance) and make the most of it, whether or not it lines up with the comics canon?

Please note - I am not an Olicity shipper. That's not why I'm saying this. But to me it's been clear that the decision to move toward Olicity and away from Lauriver was due to the utter failure of the Oliver/ Laurel relationship onscreen and not the other way around. Also, no, I'm not entirely convinced they won't try to move them back together in the future. But as far as they've gone with Olicity this season, I think it'd be a really hard sell at this point. And there's very little to indicate (and a lot to indicate the opposite) that KC and SA will have any more chemistry as crime-fighting partners than they do now.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[Password]

I don't really understand how they could have the comics dynamic given their history. They are so done with each other that it seems more likely they'd end up permanently leaving each other's lives than have any sort of crime fighting relationship. Laurel having the acquired skills of BC won't take away any of the bad feels between them. They just don't like each other.

[ruby24]

I understand playing with canon during the middle of the show's run, but my question is, ultimately do you end up circling back to what's supposed to be true in the end? Many here seem to be convinced that will never happen, and I have to question that, because of what I've read about this character.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[catrox14]

 

But again, we haven't even seen the dynamic they had in the comics yet. The way she was introduced wasn't as a fellow costumed superhero who he teams up with, I guess because they wanted to show her own origin story.

 

I think there is a strong argument that we already got the Black Canary that was paired with and fighting alongside the Arrow the only difference is that her name was Sara Lance.  But in every other aspect short of owning a flower shoppe, she was Black Canary. So to me they have done BC/GA. 

[Password]

But the problem is why would they divert back? The argument is literally just "because comics". They've deviated so much from the comics, allowed Oliver and Laurel to be toxic and hate each other. They've worked together (albeit reluctantly) as crime fighters. They've pretty much fulfilled comics canon other than marriage and divorce (which considering that hallway scene could be their divorce). So the question would be, after fulfilling canon, why stick to it? They're not together at the moment in comics, why be so in the show?

[Starfish35]

The thing is, according to my understanding, Oliver and Dinah do not have a Happily Ever After ending in the comics. They were together for awhile, a long while, but it wasn't necessarily happily, and now they're not. You could say that they've already complied with comic canon in that respect. Oliver and Laurel were together for a long time, he cheated on her multiple times, and now they're not. No, not while they were GA/BC, but they were still together for years. Oliver has also had a canon relationship with a Canary, Sara. So if it's the BC/GA portion of canon, that checkbox has also been checked off.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

Oliver and the Black Canary got divorced. It seems the show is going to give that history to Nyssa ;)

[SonofaBiscuit]

1.) Apparently, we're actually adhering to Batman canon now, so maybe what happened in the Green Arrow comics doesn't even matter.  

 

2.) As others have pointed out, maybe the EPs would LOVE to follow comic canon for this one particular relationship and give us BC/GA, but it won't be happening if the network refuses to sign off on it.  

[dtissagirl]

I understand playing with canon during the middle of the show's run, but my question is, ultimately do you end up circling back to what's supposed to be true in the end? Many here seem to be convinced that will never happen, and I have to question that, because of what I've read about this character. To me that part would seem like too big a deviation.

I've read a ton of Green Arrow and Birds of Prey comics, so I'm comfortable saying that the biggest deviation isn't breaking up a pairing that ultimately failed in the comics -- the BC/GA joined comic book was a business failure, and was canceled pretty quickly, and the characters divorced soon after and haven't really interacted since then. The biggest deviation is that Arrow's Oliver and Laurel share their names [well, Laurel sort of shares the name, even] with the comic book characters, but very little else. The personalities are different, their families are different, jobs, friends, age, everything is different. Why would they have to adhere to one specific part of comic book canon, but it's okay to deviate from everything else? That's what puts me off the Because Comics! argument every time.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

But again, we haven't even seen the dynamic they had in the comics yet. The way she was introduced wasn't as a fellow costumed superhero who he teams up with, I guess because they wanted to show her own origin story.

 

And yeah, I can get behind the Felicity death thing, if that's what has to happen. Once again, on Smallville, that's basically what happened to Lana and a lot of people felt like him being with Lois did feel like a second choice, but Clark has to be with Lois, so however they got there, they did get there in the end and stayed true to that character, because they knew they had to.

 

For a person who hasn't read the comics you're awfully invested in it? :p 

 

I'm just gonna go right ahead and say it. I honestly don't think we'll ever see the dynamics GA/BC had in the comics because their characters are different in the show. Oliver is Bruce Wayne light in Arrow, he isn't Oliver Queen from the comics. And Laurel Lance from the show isn't Dinah Laurel Lance from the comics, not by a long shot. Most of my comic friends would HATE the prospect of them getting together on the show because of how different they are from the comics. 

 

Why does Clark HAVE to be with Lois? Certainly he doesn't have to if he's with Wonder Woman now? OQ/DLL don't end up together in every reboot of GA, so why do they have to end up in this reboot of GA? 

 

So basically you're just saying you want the show to kill Felicity (arguably a fan favorite character), a character who has been fleshed out in 3 seasons and still has more to give, a character who offers a different tone to the show, a character who breathed life to an angst ridden show and helped it turn around in season 2 just for the sake of Comic Canon? Something you admit you haven't really read? I'm sorry I just don't get this? I get if you hate Felicity and you want her to die, but even then that's not even a good reason for Felicity to die.

 

Basically your reason for Oliver and Laurel to get together is because of Comics. No other in show reason thus far? While I gave you countless reasons why they'd be terrible together? I'm sure you could come up with a better argument than that. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I'm just trying to understand your perspective. And if this was debate club, your argument wouldn't stand. 

[JJ928]

But again, we haven't even seen the dynamic they had in the comics yet. The way she was introduced wasn't as a fellow costumed superhero who he teams up with, I guess because they wanted to show her own origin story.

 

And yeah, I can get behind the Felicity death thing, if that's what has to happen. Once again, on Smallville, that's basically what happened to Lana and a lot of people felt like him being with Lois did feel like a second choice, but Clark has to be with Lois, so however they got there, they did get there in the end and stayed true to that character, because they knew they had to.

 

I'm going to butt in for a moment.

 

This isn't Superman. Marc Guggenheim said in a few interviews that they picked GA because they could stray from his mythos, they could pick and choose what they want because it wasn't precious like Superman or Batman.

 

Also, we did see that GA/BC dynamic - with Sara. Yes, I know she's not comic canon, but she was introduced as a fellow costumed hero, she fought with Oliver, she took care of Sin, & she had a romance with Oliver. I feel like the show can say, they've done their interpretation of GA/BC romance already, they gave you the Laurel/Oliver romance in season 1, & this season you had your "comic" Arrow team with Arsenal, BC, & GA. 

 

Roy is a big part of GA mythos as well, and Roy is gone now. They've said repeatedly that they are not tied to canon when it comes to Arrow. I am not saying it'll never happen, but I'm saying they've covered their ass sufficiently where it doesn't have to.

[ruby24]

I don't know how many times I can say that I think you should stay true to the broad strokes of the characters from the comic books. And from what I've seen that's one of the major things about it, so I'd be cool if they ultimately got back to that.

 

I can also tell by your post that you're a person who really passionately loves Felicity, so I don't want to offend you or anything, lol. If you want to know my feelings about her based on the show, it's that I think she's good comic relief and that's it, so I don't have a real rooting interest in whether she lives or dies. I never cared much about Chloe on Smallville either.

[apinknightmare]

I don't know how many times I can say that I think you should stay true to the broad strokes of the characters from the comic books. And from what I've seen that's one of the major things about it, so I'd be cool if they ultimately got back to that.

 

If you want Oliver and Laurel back together because you like them together, you can say that. It doesn't have to be rooted in a "but comics!" argument. The people who run this show don't seem to be too concerned about comic canon anyway. Well, unless it's Batman.

Edited May 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

I don't know how many times I can say that I think you should stay true to the broad strokes of the characters from the comic books. And from what I've seen that's one of the major things about it, so I'd be cool if they ultimately got back to that.

 

I think what many people have been saying is that the show has already massively deviated from the comic books in terms of storylines and characterizations for everything and everyone, so why are they obligated to go back to comics just for the the GA/BC relationship? Even Oliver Queen on the show is nothing like OQ in the comics. It's safe to say that with the background they've given him, and the trauma he's been through in the last 3 seasons, he will never be the wisecracking, joking GA in the comics. Laurel Lance is nothing like Dinah Lance, not her background or personality. So again, why would they go back to that well on the show when they a) fulfilled the "Oliver loves Laurel" requirement in season 1 and b) fulfilled the Green Arrow loves Black Canary (Sara) in season 2. Because at this point, the only thing the show characters have in common with their comic counterparts are their names.

 

 

I can also tell by your post that you're a person who really passionately loves Felicity, so I don't want to offend you or anything, lol. If you want to know my feelings about her based on the show, it's that I think she's good comic relief and that's it, so I don't have a real rooting interest in whether she lives or dies. I never cared much about Chloe on Smallville either.

I'm not answering for @wonderwall, but personally, even if Felicity didn't exist, I would still not be expecting nor supporting Laurel/Oliver to be the main romance. I'd be hoping that Helena comes back, or that Oliver would just keep being a womanizer (which is also comic canon, btw), or no romance at all. There's such a thing as star crossed, and then there's "he cheated on her with her sister AND he had a child with another woman while he was cheating on her". 

Edited May 1, 2015 by lemotomato

[ruby24]

I don't hate or like them yet. I also don't hate or like Oliver and Felicity. I guess if I really really liked those two as a couple I'd be more against Laurel like everyone else is here. I'm sort of indifferent to the people he's been paired with, but I would like to see the GA/BC dynamic that's supposed to exist in the comics, because we haven't seen it yet.

[wonderwall]

I don't know how many times I can say that I think you should stay true to the broad strokes of the characters from the comic books. And from what I've seen that's one of the major things about it, so I'd be cool if they ultimately got back to that.

 

I can also tell by your post that you're a person who really passionately loves Felicity, so I don't want to offend you or anything, lol. If you want to know my feelings about her based on the show, it's that I think she's good comic relief and that's it, so I don't have a real rooting interest in whether she lives or dies. I never cared much about Chloe on Smallville either.

 

What's there to get back to? Oliver's never been like his comic book counterpart. Ironically, the only time he has been almost close to it was in episode 301 when he was with Felicity. 

 

I'm not really offended. I just didn't understand your reasoning. You're not the only person I've seen who wants Felicity to be killed off, I just think that the costs would definitely outweigh the benefits if they do. Shock value only lasts so long, and Felicity's character has gained much more importance to the series than just being 'comic relief'. She's become one of the characters who showed a different side of Oliver, the tech genius without whose expertise TA would fall apart, she helps Oliver stick up for his values (no kill rule in season 2) and gives him shit when she thinks he's going against them (episode 312). Not only that but Felicity has become one of the most important people in Oliver's life. So to say she's just the comic relief kind of makes me question how you watch the show. 

 

I guess to each their own. I personally only care about the narrative of the show and don't give a damn about the comics or what they did in Smallville because not even the EPs care about what happened in Smallville. I also think that SA and KC don't have enough chemistry, KC was a total miscast, and Laurel is definitely one of the most replaceable characters on the show that has offered very little to the shows narrative and overall arc of furthering Oliver's story and character development. IMO Laurel has offered less to the narrative than Felicity has. Even now when is BC she still doesn't have a central role nor a place in the team like Felicity has. She could leave tomorrow and not much on the show would change? Because I honestly think Oliver wouldn't mind if Laurel left. 

I don't hate or like them yet. I also don't hate or like Oliver and Felicity. I guess if I really really liked those two as a couple I'd be more against Laurel like everyone else is here. I'm sort of indifferent to the people he's been paired with, but I would like to see the GA/BC dynamic that's supposed to exist in the comics, because we haven't seen it yet.

 

I think we should be clear here that almost everyone on this board who doesn't like Laurel don't like her because of her characterization and the hundreds of missteps the writers have taken regarding her character, NOT because of O/F. 

 

I'm sure you'll get a GA/BC dynamic. Just not a romantic one because narratively it makes no sense. 

 

ETA: I apologize if this came off a little too intense. I've had a rough morning :/ No but seriously, if you like Laurel/Oliver, then go for it. I just don't think anyone will ever understand the 'but comics' argument because it really isn't an argument. Even the writers have said they aren't slaves to the source material. So if you're looking for comics, don't watch the show because you'll only be disappointed. Read the comics

Edited May 1, 2015 by wonderwall

[ruby24]

I guess to each their own. I personally only care about the narrative of the show and don't give a damn about the comics or what they did in Smallville because not even the EPs give a damn about what happened in Smallville. I also think that SA and KC don't have enough chemistry, KC was a total miscast, and Laurel is definitely one of the most replaceable characters on the show that has offered very little to the shows narrative and overall arc of furthering Oliver's story and character development. IMO Laurel has offered less to the narrative than Felicity has. Even now when is BC she still doesn't have a central role nor a place in the team like Felicity has. She could leave tomorrow and not much on the show would change? Because I honestly think Oliver wouldn't mind if Laurel left. 

Okay, so you're a person who only watches in terms of the show itself and I understand that. That's just not how I watch comic book shows- I look up the important parts of the character's legacy and expect to see the most basic, biggest parts fulfilled, at least in spirit.

[Starfish35]

I guess if I really really liked those two as a couple I'd be more against Laurel like everyone else is here.

Please don't go there with the insinuations that people only dislike Laurel because they ship Olicity. I can't stand Laurel, and I am not an Olicity shipper.

Honestly, I would have been perfectly happy to have a GA/BC pairing, but not as long as the BC was Katie Cassidy's Laurel. I really liked the GA/BC dynamic with Oliver and Sara in season two.

[DrSpaceman10]

I've always thought that on Arrow the crime-fighting team of Oliver, Diggle, Felicity was better than any version of GA/BC that this show has attempted. Assuming they ever get back to fighting actual crime, I hope they stick with Oliver/Diggle/Felicity. 

[tarotx]

Go read up on Batman. Make him a bit like Aquaman and then you will have our Ollie ;)

[dtissagirl]

Okay, so you're a person who only watches in terms of the show itself and I understand that. That's just not how I watch comic book shows- I look up the important parts of the character's legacy and expect to see the most basic, biggest parts fulfilled, at least in spirit.

Okay, so, honest curious question: What else about the Green Arrow legacy from the comics books do you expect on Arrow?

[ruby24]

For Merlyn to be his archenemy, for him to be something of a social justice/against the rich type of hero, for him to have Speedy the sidekick (or I guess two of them, which they included), and for Black Canary to be his true love. Also for Green Lantern/Hal Jordan to be his good friend, which hasn't happened (yet, but still could). That seems to be the major stuff, from what I can tell.

[Delphi]

They could make season four arc an almost exact copy of the last few storylines of Green Arrow, pre 52, and it would still be horribly received by everyone. Comic readers would think that they didn't do it justice, non readers would hate the characterization and sudden personality change of the characters. Katie Cassidy fans would hate it because Laurel wouldn't come off looking all that great. Her haters would think that Katie wasn't capable of carrying the material. It just doesn't make a narrative sense to Start following the comics now. In fact in this grand tradition of robbing Bat Family lore, I propose that in season 4 laurel quits her job to become a renowned cat burglar to continue a adversarial relationship with Oliver that ends with flirting than sex on a rooftop.

[apinknightmare]

Also for Green Lantern/Hal Jordan to be his good friend, which hasn't happened (yet, but still could).

 

Nah. Marc Guggenheim said DC had other plans for Green Lantern and wouldn't let Arrow have him. 

[ruby24]

Oh okay. But that was studio interference at least. I'm sure they would have liked to be able to use him (he seems to be very much a part of GA as well).

 

By the way, I don't care about not following detailed specific storylines or current comics, I just think the most basic, oldest and long running things about the characters (the stuff that's lasted) are what makes them, so incorporating that is what I consider to be following the "spirit" of the characters. The most beloved and famous version of GA seems to be the one that came out of the 1960's revamp. That's what seems to have lasted the longest.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[dtissagirl]

For Merlyn to be his archenemy, for him to be something of a social justice/against the rich type of hero, for him to have Speedy the sidekick (or I guess two of them, which they included), and for Black Canary to be his true love. Also for Green Lantern/Hal Jordan to be his good friend, which hasn't happened (yet, but still could). That seems to be the major stuff, from what I can tell.

But Merlyn and Speedy can be completely different people from the comic books, as they currently are on the show, or do they have to change the characters on the show now, to adhere to comic book canon?

[wonderwall]

For Merlyn to be his archenemy, for him to be something of a social justice/against the rich type of hero, for him to have Speedy the sidekick (or I guess two of them, which they included), and for Black Canary to be his true love. Also for Green Lantern/Hal Jordan to be his good friend, which hasn't happened (yet, but still could). That seems to be the major stuff, from what I can tell.

 

• Wasn't it Tommy Merlyn who was the Dark Archer and not Malcolm Merlyn? At least that's what I thought. Tommy was Oliver's best friend so this is yet another deviation
• I don't think Oliver will ever be against the rich, but social justice? Yeah He'll probably get there at one point. I actually wouldn't mind if he became Mayor at one point. 
• Speedy IMO will be Oliver's sidekick by the end of the season but then again Thea was never in the comics nor was she Oliver's sister in the comics. Speedy was Mia Dearden. So that's yet another deviation from the comics
• Yeah Green Lantern won't ever come to Arrow
• And you know my gripes with the whole L/O thing so we won't get into that

Edited May 1, 2015 by wonderwall

[Password]

Actually do you personally feel Dinah was his true love? It's just that he cheated on her all the time. They'd have to fulfill that too which coincidentally they did.

[ruby24]

Well, Merlyn is the archenemy and villain, and Speedy is the sidekick (along with a separate Red Arrow/Arsenal), so that seems true enough. And her name is Thea Dearden Queen, right, so they clearly meant for her to be the Mia Dearden character, they just made her his sister. Black Canary's there, but for her not to be "the one" and for that to be someone else entirely is deviating pretty strongly, I'd say. But then again, I don't know that that's what's actually happening here, because they may be bringing that element back in the future for all I know.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ruby24

[quarks]

Ruby24, curious question: what are your feelings about Mockingbird/Barbara Morse over on Agents of Shield?

[Starfish35]

Isn't Merlyn in the comics (at least pre-new 52) a guy named Arthur King? And precluding a sudden swerve at the end of this season, Malcolm Merlyn was only Oliver's archenemy for one season.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[ostentatious]

The only reason to make a live action version of a comic series is to enjoy what actors do with the material, and to ignore what the actors are bringing to the process is both short-sighted and disrespectful to them.

And for Oliver and Laurel to be together on this show, that is what would be required. The work of the actors would have to be discounted entirely.

Realize that DC Comics, from Geoff Johns on down, have signed off on BC not being GAs love interest in the TV show. So, the people responsible for the brand don't think there's any problem here at all. If they don't, then fans who do are in disagreement with the ascended fans who run the brand.

In a dispute between these groups - DC and a small contingent of fans who disagree with DC's decision about Oliver and Felicity - I'm going to have to say that DC's opinion is what counts. They feel that a BC/GA romantic relationship has been attended to quite enough, and it has. In this AU, they dated once and it didn't work out. That tends to be how things go in AUs. Many touchpoints remain the same, but the details are vastly different.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ostentatious

[ruby24]

Ruby24, curious question: what are your feelings about Mockingbird/Barbara Morse over on Agents of Shield?

I haven't looked up her character's history yet. I know they've changed stuff, right? But she's a supporting character on that show anyway- that show's not about her. If she gets that rumored spinoff, I would imagine they'd incorporate more of her major elements. Oliver Queen on Smallville was a bit player too, so I didn't expect as much allegiance paid to him on a show that was about Clark Kent/Superman.

 

But on a show that IS about him, I'd expect a little more attention paid to some of the bigger things in his universe.

[quarks]

I haven't looked up her character's history yet. I know they've changed stuff, right? But she's a supporting character on that show anyway- that show's not about her. If she gets that rumored spinoff, I would imagine they'd incorporate more of her major elements.

 

The stuff they changed included completely dropping her canonical, decades long on and off-again relationship with Hawkeye, and pairing her up with a new character created for the show.  The spinoff is not planning on incorporating this relationship.

[Morena]

But the problem is why would they divert back? The argument is literally just "because comics". They've deviated so much from the comics, allowed Oliver and Laurel to be toxic and hate each other. They've worked together (albeit reluctantly) as crime fighters. They've pretty much fulfilled comics canon other than marriage and divorce (which considering that hallway scene could be their divorce). So the question would be, after fulfilling canon, why stick to it? They're not together at the moment in comics, why be so in the show?

I dont think DC cares GA / BC ending together, because they dropped them before the New 52 and now they not met. Lois and Clark on the other hand, moreover, although they are not connected romantically, they're friends and Lois respects him as a journalist

Edited May 1, 2015 by Morena

[ruby24]

The stuff they changed included completely dropping her canonical, decades long on and off-again relationship with Hawkeye, and pairing her up with a new character created for the show.  The spinoff is not planning on incorporating this relationship.

Well, that sucks then. For fans of the character, if there are many. Has she ever had her own comic book, or are they doing that because she's so minor that she only ever appeared in other people's stories? Either way, I disagree with that move. I won't be watching that spinoff.

[ostentatious]

I would think that if one was going to be upset by the changes in this AU, they'd be too busy worrying about how this Oliver has an entirely different personality than comics Oliver to worry about who his girlfriend is. Once you change his personality, you change the types of women he falls in love with and the types of romantic dynamics and other dynamics he can play.

This Oliver is Angel, not Buffy. This Laurel is also an Angel. Even if it weren't for the fact that the actor are horrible together, two Angels are intolerable. Somebody has to be Buffy. Felicity is a Buffy. Tommy was a Buffy.

And again, DC Comics *does not care about the Oliver/Laurel relationship*. There is really no point in being absolutist about something that DC sees as unimportant.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ostentatious

[Morena]

Oh okay. But that was studio interference at least. I'm sure they would have liked to be able to use him (he seems to be very much a part of GA as well).

 

By the way, I don't care about not following detailed specific storylines or current comics, I just think the most basic, oldest and long running things about the characters (the stuff that's lasted) are what makes them, so incorporating that is what I consider to be following the "spirit" of the characters. The most beloved and famous version of GA seems to be the one that came out of the 1960's revamp. That's what seems to have lasted the longest.

If they could use GL, I believe John Diggle would become GL

[dtissagirl]

Well, that sucks then. For fans of the character, if there are many. Has she ever had her own comic book, or are they doing that because she's so minor that she only ever appeared in other people's stories? Either way, I disagree with that move. I won't be watching that spinoff.

If non-canonical relationships in live action adaptations are this much a problem for you, then you should skip Avengers: Age of Ultron as well.

[Sakura12]

Comics themselves barely follow their own canon. They are always changing them when a new writer takes over and wants to tell their own story. They even have alternate universe comics. In the New 52 version, Green Arrow and Black Canary don't even know each other exist. 

 

DC dropped their own canon pairing, why should Arrow have to follow something the company that made them possible isn't doing? I see Arrow as an alternate universe telling of Green Arrow, where there will be lots of changes and not everything from Green Arrow will be shown. Plus as other have said this show is following Batman, so that is the canon you should be reading up on. 

 

Also if I wanted to see the comic book, I'd read the comic book. TV is a different medium, a comic book takes about a minute to read, a tv shows has 40 minutes and at least a couple years of time to fill. I expect them to change things so they can have more story to tell. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[kismet]

The divorce doesn't matter really- the build up to the wedding itself was treated as a big event, because of the character's history (I'm sure they'll get back together at some point too). All I'm saying is that the GA/BC pairing is a hugely significant part of the Green Arrow history, and that it's one of the longstanding elements of that universe, so I'd still be surprised if they were to toss it out completely and never revisit it for the TV series- to do so would be major departure from "stay true to the spirit of the character" territory.

 

Still doesn't mean they won't do it obviously, of course they could. I'm just skeptical, given that there are comic book writers involved here who know that history.

Well, I sorta wonder if they plan on having OQ & LL kids from other spouses be the BC/GA comic couple. Can't honestly see SA wanting to stay around as Arrow forever I think he probably has like 6 seasons in him, maybe a little more. But if the network wants to keep the show they could do a complete time/cast reset and have them continue the show. Its a crazy idea, but its possible. At this rate, I would be surprised if OQ became Green Arrow, maybe the big reveal of the series will be the introduction of his son the Green Arrow when SA is ready to leave.

 

I'm curious to see how the dynamic changes once she's really in full action as Black Canary though (better than now). Because that was the dynamic in the comics, the two of them as a crime fighting duo, and that we have not seen yet. It hasn't gotten there. If they did want to stay true to the spirit of the comics, that does present an opportunity for a new dynamic between them (one that's actually more in line with what's expected).

I know she was only Canary, but honestly feel I saw this dynamic/relationship between SL/OQ and that was enough for me. The problem is that KC/SA have no romantic chemistry. It doesn't matter if they are fighting or not. There are no romantic sparks.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Have Laurel and Oliver had a lot of screen time together this season?  It almost feels like the show intentionally goes out of it's way to keep those two apart (please correct me if I'm wrong...I've missed a lot of episodes).  Personally, I feel like SA and the showrunners are very aware of the chemistry black hole that exists between KC and SA.  It feels like they keep shuffling KC from person to person to find a dynamic that works.

[Starfish35]

I think they've found one, with Nyssa. It will be interesting to see if they try to capitalize on that next season, or if they go back to trying to force her into Team Arrow.

[Morena]

I think they've found one, with Nyssa. It will be interesting to see if they try to capitalize on that next season, or if they go back to trying to force her into Team Arrow.

It would be a mistake, because the episodes in which she is not really as part of TA are the ones that work organically. Honestly, it would be exhausting seeing Oliver and Laurel arguing, screaming at each other for each decision