“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ah. I gotcha.  So what do you think his motive was for telling Dean about the save or kill thing on his death bed and not really giving him anything to go on at that point?

LIke I said, I don't think he wanted either of the boys to actively go hunting Azazel (he especially didn't want Sam in his vicinity, just in case that was what triggered something.)  But he couldn't very well ignore the possibility of him going bad altogether, so he had to tell Dean what to do, just in case.  But that's JMO.  

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Oh, I'm sure he was.  I was just pointing out how John could be a worse father.

Oh, definitely.  To quote Sam:

SAM: Well, it coulda gone a whole other way after Mom. A little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we woulda had Max's childhood. All things considered, we turned out ok. Thanks to him. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 How did he hunt whilst doing all his homework and cramming for the SAT and taking a college entrance exam. When did he find time to do all of that?

According to Season 7, teen Sam found triple red eyes to help out ; ) ...Barista: "It's your funeral."

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess to me I've always taken what was being said bybSam when he was going through the trials as somewhat suspect and that it was the process making him believe things about himself that weren't really factual. I can see him retroactively thinking he always thought he was wrong because of the trials but not that he thought that when he was a teenager.

Sam did say in an early season that even in Stanford, he didn't really feel like he belonged / fit in. And that sounded like he meant before he started having visions, so I don't think that it's too far of a stretch for Sam's characterization that he started feeling not right earlier on. And maybe picking up subconsciously on weird clues from John - if John learned early on from Missouri something about Sam - might have added to his feeling "wrong."

For me, I agree with @DittyDotDot that it makes sense (to me) as to why Sam was so preoccupied with trying to fit in with "normal" but in the end, still never really felt like he quite fit. It might also explain why "Freak" was such a hot button thing for young Sam (as seen in "Afterschool Special").

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, I agree with @DittyDotDot that it makes sense (to me) as to why Sam was so preoccupied with trying to fit in with "normal" but in the end, still never really felt like he quite fit. It might also explain why "Freak" was such a hot button thing for young Sam (as seen in "Afterschool Special")

But that's not the same thing as him thinking he was "evil".  But I'm probably nitpicking that distinction.

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But that's not the same thing as him thinking he was "evil".  But I'm probably nitpicking that distinction.

No, I don't think it was "evil" that Sam thought he was, though I don't remember the exact term he used (so I could be wrong). I think it was "tainted" or something like that. Though I think he said that he didn't think he could be the hero, so maybe not "evil" per se, but maybe not "good?"

Looked it up: the words he used were "not clean". Here's what Sam said about it:

Quote

Knights of the Round Table. Had all of King Arthur's knights, and they were all on the quest for the Holy Grail. And I remember looking at this picture of Sir Galahad, and, and, and he was kneeling, and— and light streaming over his face, and— I remember... thinking, uh, I could never go on a quest like that. Because I'm not clean. I mean, I w— I was just a little kid. You think... maybe I knew? I mean, deep down, that— I had... demon blood in me, and about the evil of it, and that I'm— wasn't pure?

So no, Sam wasn't saying that he thought he was "evil" back then - just "not clean" - but was looking back at it now knowing what he knew and was wondering if deep down he suspected that he had that potential for "evil" in him via the demon blood.

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I don't think it was "evil" that Sam thought he was, though I don't remember the exact term he used (so I could be wrong). I think it was "tainted" or something like that. Though I think he said that he didn't think he could be the hero, so maybe not "evil" per se, but maybe not "good?"

Looked it up: the words he used were "not clean". Here's what Sam said about it:

So no, Sam wasn't saying that he thought he was "evil" back then - just "not clean" - but was looking back at it now knowing what he knew and was wondering if deep down he suspected that he had that potential for "evil" in him via the demon blood.

I really don't understand where all this came from.  Sam didn't even know about the demon blood until AHBL; and I may be wrong, but I don't remember him ever saying that he felt "evil" or "tainted" or "unclean," until The Great Escapist.  TBH, I had the feeling that it was inserted specifically to give him a logical reason for wanting to do the trials alone (and to say that he wanted to "purify" himself).   Before that, I remember him saying he always felt like "a freak," but mostly because of his family/moving around all the time (or because he didn't want to hunt), not because he was inherently bad or tainted in any way.  (I always compared it to Jo telling her mother that she didn't belong in college because there she was "just a freak with a knife collection.")   

So to me, Sam suddenly feeling "unclean" way back when he was 8 (or whenever he read about Sir Galahad) was a major retcon, and I'm just surprised that so many people not only accepted it without question but actually embraced it as if it had been canon from the very beginning.  And even if he did feel "unclean" as a child, he was granted absolution by God himself in Dark Side of the Moon, which IMO is/should be the best "purification" anyone could possibly ask for, so continuing to complain that he was "unclean" years later seems kind of...blasphemous?

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I really don't understand where all this came from.  Sam didn't even know about the demon blood until AHBL; and I may be wrong, but I don't remember him ever saying that he felt "evil" or "tainted" or "unclean," until The Great Escapist.  TBH, I had the feeling that it was inserted specifically to give him a logical reason for wanting to do the trials alone (and to say that he wanted to "purify" himself).   Before that, I remember him saying he always felt like "a freak," but mostly because of his family/moving around all the time (or because he didn't want to hunt), not because he was inherently bad or tainted in any way.  (I always compared it to Jo telling her mother that she didn't belong in college because there she was "just a freak with a knife collection.")   

So to me, Sam suddenly feeling "unclean" way back when he was 8 (or whenever he read about Sir Galahad) was a major retcon, and I'm just surprised that so many people not only accepted it without question but actually embraced it as if it had been canon from the very beginning.  And even if he did feel "unclean" as a child, he was granted absolution by God himself in Dark Side of the Moon, which IMO is/should be the best "purification" anyone could possibly ask for, so continuing to complain that he was "unclean" years later seems kind of...blasphemous?

Oh, I think Sam always felt like he didn't fit. Like @AwesomO4000 said, being called a "freak" was a hot button for him, even in S1. That's why he didn't tell Dean about his psychic dreams at first, he didn't want Dean to see him as a freak. That's been the one consistent about Sam from S1, IMO.

Also, just because God allowed him a place in Heaven, that doesn't mean he was giving Sam absolution. Apparently getting a place in Heaven on this show is just a matter of knowing the right angel anyway, so... . However, even if God had granted Sam absolution, doesn't necessarily mean Sam felt like he was absolved.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I think Sam always felt like he didn't fit. Like @AwesomO4000 said, being called a "freak" was a hot button for him, even in S1. That's why he didn't tell Dean about his psychic dreams at first, he didn't want Dean to see him as a freak. That's been the one consistent about Sam from S1, IMO.

Also, just because God allowed him a place in Heaven, that doesn't mean he was giving Sam absolution. Apparently getting a place in Heaven on this show is just a matter of knowing the right angel anyway, so... . However, even if God had granted Sam absolution, doesn't necessarily mean Sam felt like he was absolved.

I said this years ago on another discussion board.  Freak is to Sam like Chicken was to Marty McFly. 

On this show, I feel like as long as you don't actively sell your soul or murder people, you get into Heaven. I guess you could make a case for Sam as murderer, but basically I'm saying that show Heaven, bar not high.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I really don't understand where all this came from.  Sam didn't even know about the demon blood until AHBL; and I may be wrong, but I don't remember him ever saying that he felt "evil" or "tainted" or "unclean," until The Great Escapist.  TBH, I had the feeling that it was inserted specifically to give him a logical reason for wanting to do the trials alone (and to say that he wanted to "purify" himself).   Before that, I remember him saying he always felt like "a freak," but mostly because of his family/moving around all the time (or because he didn't want to hunt), not because he was inherently bad or tainted in any way.  (I always compared it to Jo telling her mother that she didn't belong in college because there she was "just a freak with a knife collection.")   

So to me, Sam suddenly feeling "unclean" way back when he was 8 (or whenever he read about Sir Galahad) was a major retcon, and I'm just surprised that so many people not only accepted it without question but actually embraced it as if it had been canon from the very beginning.  And even if he did feel "unclean" as a child, he was granted absolution by God himself in Dark Side of the Moon, which IMO is/should be the best "purification" anyone could possibly ask for, so continuing to complain that he was "unclean" years later seems kind of...blasphemous?

This was always my impression as well. They were always 'the new kid' in schools, they lived in motels or rentals (which I assume were 'other side of the tracks' locations), he was a 'nerd' and/or exceedingly smart, though I'm not sure if that's canon or fanon, he couldn't talk about what his family did, he didn't want to *do* what his family did, he had no mom. All things that can make a kid feel like a freak among their peers. Early on he talked about having visions of Jess's death, but they seemed to be a puzzlement to him, and certainly to Dean - not something they'd dealt with their whole lives. As late as 2x10 Sam certainly seemed shocked to learn that John thought he would go darkside. So yeah, this revelation that he always felt 'unclean' seems like ret-con to me, too.

[catrox14]

IMO, the Great Escapist was not Ben Edlunds finest work. I think he had been given a note from Carver to build Sam sympathy for Sam not looking for Dean and to set up Sam's  berating Dean "confession"in Sacrifice. He screwed up the Grand Canyon thing. I don't think there is a through line for Sam feeling like a freak or dirty or wrong " equates to "evil" in Sam's mind.  I

18 hours ago, auntvi said:

One factor that hasn't been mentioned is Sam's demon blood, and after John discovered it how it colored the way he treated Sam. In season 8 Sam says that he's felt impure or damaged or somehow wrong for as long as he can remember. I don't know when John discovered Azazel and the demon blood, but he apparently knew it before Sam left for Stanford. John's "save him or kill him" mindset must have affected the way he felt about and treated Sam, and Sam must have felt his father's ambivalence.

I meant to ask this before, are you suggesting that John thought Sam was evil when he was a kid and that's why he and Sam butted heads when Sam didn't want to hunt and when he took off for college? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand what you are getting at here.

[ahrtee]

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I think Sam always felt like he didn't fit. Like @AwesomO4000 said, being called a "freak" was a hot button for him, even in S1. That's why he didn't tell Dean about his psychic dreams at first, he didn't want Dean to see him as a freak. That's been the one consistent about Sam from S1, IMO.

Also, just because God allowed him a place in Heaven, that doesn't mean he was giving Sam absolution. Apparently getting a place in Heaven on this show is just a matter of knowing the right angel anyway, so... . However, even if God had granted Sam absolution, doesn't necessarily mean Sam felt like he was absolved.

I never said Sam didn't hate being called a freak, or that he felt that he fit in.   That's not the same as thinking he was "unclean" in any way.  That's a pretty intense concept for an 8 year-old to come up with, no matter how smart he is, or how weird his family is.  I imagine he got called a freak by a lot of his classmates, and that's why it was such a hotbutton (though IIRC Dean did call him that affectionately at least in season 1, and Sam didn't seem too upset that time, though later Dean had to backtrack when Sam asked "you think I'm a freak?" by saying "we're both freaks.")   

And nowadays we know pretty much everyone can get into heaven, but in seasons 4/5, even learning that there was a God was a pretty big deal, much less knowing that he took a particular interest in *you.*  It creeped Dean out in Lazarus Rising, but IMO Sam (with his faith) should have been thrilled to get God's approval (not just *allowing* him a place in heaven but actually "granting him salvation") and should have believed it.  (JOSHUA: God saved you already. He put you on that plane. He brought back Castiel. He granted you salvation in heaven (he turns to face Sam directly) and after everything you’ve done too.)  So God knew everything that he'd done (and we can assume he knew about the "unclean" thing, too, if it really existed back then) and he *STILL* granted him salvation.  That should have been a pretty big deal for Sam, at least at that time.

So, I have no problem with him not fitting in with his peers (as @gonzosgirrl explained so clearly) or having "freak" being a hotbutton for him.  My only issue is with the "unclean" aspect of this (which they repeated in season 12).  Sam has been absolved/cleansed/redeemed any number of times (that was the whole point of him jumping into the Pit in the first place) and he even declared that he no longer felt guilty because he'd already paid for anything he'd done by his time in the Pit (which is why Osiris didn't go after him).  So IMO the fact that he keeps going back to "unworthy" (much less "tainted") feels very redundant, as if it's the only reason the writers can come up with for why he wants to sacrifice himself over and over.  Can't either of the boys just be heroic without some pathological need for redemption (or, in Dean's case, to save Sam?)  

Edited September 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was always my impression as well. They were always 'the new kid' in schools, they lived in motels or rentals (which I assume were 'other side of the tracks' locations), he was a 'nerd' and/or exceedingly smart, though I'm not sure if that's canon or fanon, he couldn't talk about what his family did, he didn't want to *do* what his family did, he had no mom. All things that can make a kid feel like a freak among their peers. Early on he talked about having visions of Jess's death, but they seemed to be a puzzlement to him, and certainly to Dean - not something they'd dealt with their whole lives. As late as 2x10 Sam certainly seemed shocked to learn that John thought he would go darkside. So yeah, this revelation that he always felt 'unclean' seems like ret-con to me, too.

Sure, wee Sam blamed his feeling different on the circumstances of their lives, but I think it was established all the way back in S1 that Sam always knew that wasn't true. Sam even admits he didn't "fit" when he was at Stanford in When the Levee Breaks and his hallucination of Dean--which was really just himself--says that that he felt different all his life and it wasn't because of his weirdo family, but because, deep-down he knew he was a monster. To me, this is who Sam has always been. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

I don't necessarily think it has to be a retcon.  A superyoung Sam could have been more in tune with what was going on and then he forgot as he got older.  The delirium made him remember.  Kind of like Anna, and she knew she used to be an angel when she was 2, but then she forgot.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I don't necessarily think it has to be a retcon.  A superyoung Sam could have been more in tune with what was going on and then he forgot as he got older.  The delirium made him remember.  Kind of like Anna, and she knew she used to be an angel when she was 2, but then she forgot.

I'm not saying that didn't happen, or even that it isn't logical, but (judging by many of the posts here) "if it wasn't shown on screen it didn't happen."  And nowhere was this even *implied* until season 8, which seems like a pretty big retcon to me.  (Just like the Trickster turning into Gabriel--looking back you might say, 'oh yeah, that makes sense', but it was still a major retcon and done solely to further the plot from that point on.)

So the fact that you have to go through so many "could haves" or maybes seems to me that you're trying to look for justifications because they *didn't* show it before.  Again, not bad, not wrong, just...not canon till season 8.  And the fact that they then *tried* to make it retroactive to Sam's whole life is kind of the definition of retcon, isn't it?

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And the fact that they then *tried* to make it retroactive to Sam's whole life is kind of the definition of retcon, isn't it?

But that was my point.  It wasn't his whole life. It was one little part of his very young life, that he had forgotten and therefore wouldn't have affected anything s1-8.  If he had said, (and maybe he did, tbh, I don't really remember the dialogue) that I felt tainted my whole life, isntead of I felt tainted that one time when you read me that King Arthur story, then I would consider it a retcon. And, I will never consider Gabriel anything but a recton.  Chuck, too.  Moreso, Chuck.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But that was my point.  It wasn't his whole life. It was one little part of his very young life, that he had forgotten and therefore wouldn't have affected anything s1-8.  If he had said, (and maybe he did, tbh, I don't really remember the dialogue) that I felt tainted my whole life, isntead of I felt tainted that one time when you read me that King Arthur story, then I would consider it a retcon. And, I will never consider Gabriel anything but a recton.  Chuck, too.  Moreso, Chuck.

The actual quote:

SAM: They can't do anything for me. You know, I've been remembering things, little things, so clearly—

DEAN: What, donkey rides?

SAM: You used to read to me, um, when I was little, I— I mean, really little, from that— from that old, uh... Classics Illustrated comic book. You remember that?

DEAN: No.

SAM: Knights of the Round Table. Had all of King Arthur's knights, and they were all on the quest for the Holy Grail. And I remember looking at this picture of Sir Galahad, and, and, and he was kneeling, and— and light streaming over his face, and— I remember... thinking, uh, I could never go on a quest like that. Because I'm not clean. I mean, I w— I was just a little kid. You think... maybe I knew? I mean, deep down, that— I had... demon blood in me, and about the evil of it, and that I'm— wasn't pure?

 

So, yes, he was remembering things.  They didn't say he hadn't remembered them before, just that he was remembering them now clearly.  He was wondering if he *did* know throughout his life.  And (as I've said before)  things that warped you in childhood will often affect you throughout your life even if you don't know it or understand why  (personal experience.)

But that's not the point here IMO.  Whether he did remember it or not, they're now *saying* that he knew way back in childhood that he felt "impure," (therefore making it canon and retroactive to childhood) and they're using it now to further the plot in the direction they want--ie, to make Sam want to do the trials to purify himself.  As I said before, that's retcon.  

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not saying that didn't happen, or even that it isn't logical, but (judging by many of the posts here) "if it wasn't shown on screen it didn't happen."  And nowhere was this even *implied* until season 8, which seems like a pretty big retcon to me.  (Just like the Trickster turning into Gabriel--looking back you might say, 'oh yeah, that makes sense', but it was still a major retcon and done solely to further the plot from that point on.)

So the fact that you have to go through so many "could haves" or maybes seems to me that you're trying to look for justifications because they *didn't* show it before.  Again, not bad, not wrong, just...not canon till season 8.  And the fact that they then *tried* to make it retroactive to Sam's whole life is kind of the definition of retcon, isn't it?

From When the Levee Breaks...

Quote

YOUNG SAM: That's right, it's me. Or I mean it's you.
SAM: I'm losing my mind.
YOUNG SAM: Definitely.
SAM: What do you want?
YOUNG SAM: An explanation. How could you do this to me? I thought we were gonna be normal.
SAM: I tried. I did. It didn't pan out that way. Sorry, kid.
YOUNG SAM:  Sorry, kid'? That's what you have to say? It's all we ever wanted. We were so close. You got away from Dad. You quit hunting. You were gonna become a lawyer and get married. Why'd you blow it?
SAM: Look. They killed Jessica.
YOUNG SAM: Yeah. And if you hadn't run off with Dean, if you'd been there to protect her, she'd still be alive.
SAM: I know.
YOUNG SAM: You think Jess would want you to turn into this? She loved you. You think she'd be happy you using her as an excuse?
SAM: I'm sorry. I am. But life doesn't turn out the way you thought when you were fourteen years old. We were never gonna be normal. We were never gonna get away. Grow up.
YOUNG SAM: Maybe you're right. Maybe there's no escape. After all, how can you run from what's inside you?

Young Sam's eyes turn yellow.

Quote

HALLUCINATION DEAN: I know why you really drink that blood, Sam.
SAM: Just leave me alone.
HALLUCINATION DEAN: Makes you feel strong. Invincible. A big bad wolf in a world of little pigs.
SAM: No. You're wrong, Dean.
DEAN:  It's more than that, isn't it? It's because your whole life, you felt different. Am I right?
SAM: Stop.
DEAN: Oh, I hit a little close to home, huh? Not different because you were some lonely kid or because of your weirdo family.
SAM: Stop it.
DEAN: Because you're a monster.
SAM: Shut up! Just—shut. The hell. Up.
DEAN:  You were always a monster. And you only feel right when you're sucking down more poison and more evil.

These were both hallucinations of Sam's own thoughts and it was in S4, so not the first time it was ever broached, IMO. And, to me, Sam's saying the same exact thing that he said in The Greatest Escapist. Which is, I always felt like there was something wrong with me and it was more than just being an outsider due to my family's lifestyle.. He obviously didn't know he was infected with demon blood as a kid, but felt there was something not right about him. 

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But that's not the point here IMO.  Whether he did remember it or not, they're now *saying* that he knew way back in childhood that he felt "impure," (therefore making it canon and retroactive to childhood) and they're using it now to further the plot in the direction they want--ie, to make Sam want to do the trials to purify himself.  As I said before, that's retcon.  

WEll, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I just can't see it as a retcon if you add something to childhood that did not affect them in later years.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Katy M said:

WEll, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I just can't see it as a retcon if you add something to childhood that did not affect them in later years.

But it *did* affect him in season 8, because he was using it as a justification for needing to do the trials, which is what's annoying me.  And we don't know how it might have affected him earlier.

But yeah, agree to disagree.  

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I meant to ask this before, are you suggesting that John thought Sam was evil when he was a kid and that's why he and Sam butted heads when Sam didn't want to hunt and when he took off for college? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand what you are getting at here.

I didn't say that John thought Sam was evil and didn't associate it with a particular fight they had. My point is that what John knew about Azazel and/or the demon blood in relation to Sam (and he knew early on that something supernatural had happened to Sam) probably affected his interactions with Sam and may have been why Sam felt impure, that there was something wrong inside.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, wee Sam blamed his feeling different on the circumstances of their lives, but I think it was established all the way back in S1 that Sam always knew that wasn't true. Sam even admits he didn't "fit" when he was at Stanford in When the Levee Breaks and his hallucination of Dean--which was really just himself--says that that he felt different all his life and it wasn't because of his weirdo family, but because, deep-down he knew he was a monster. To me, this is who Sam has always been. 

Exactly. It's one of the key elements of the character.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From When the Levee Breaks...

These were both hallucinations of Sam's own thoughts and it was in S4, so not the first time it was ever broached, IMO. And, to me, Sam's saying the same exact thing that he said in The Greatest Escapist. Which is, I always felt like there was something wrong with me and it was more than just being an outsider due to my family's lifestyle.. He obviously didn't know he was infected with demon blood as a kid, but felt there was something not right about him. 

Here's something to consider

Ruby wanted Sam all to herself so he would kill Lilith. Since it was pretty much mostly Ruby's demon blood he was sucking down, then it seems reasonable to me that it was really the demon blood and the detox causing him to see all that because it was twisting his soul and his mind. It's hallucinations, which I'm not sure should be given any more weight than the Lucifer Hallucinations in s7 that made him believe things about himself that weren't actually factual not in reality. 

Prior to that episode Sam, IIRC,  as a child. Sam was only shown to be thinking he was a freak but not that he was evil or dirty or wrong at 8 years old. That is also a retcon but IMO since it was all induced by the demon blood detox it's not really a reliable measure of what Sam REALLY felt about himself at 8 years old just his insecurities that have arisen as a result of him drinking that demon blood in s4.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I didn't say that John thought Sam was evil and didn't associate it with a particular fight they had. My point is that what John knew about Azazel and/or the demon blood in relation to Sam (and he knew early on that something supernatural had happened to Sam) probably affected his interactions with Sam and may have been why Sam felt impure, that there was something wrong inside

Do you think John treated Sam in a particular way that put the idea into Sam's head that he was impure at an early age or later in life?  Do you think there were things John did to make Sam think that? Again, not saying you're saying that just looking for clarity :)

[auntvi]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think John treated Sam in a particular way that put the idea into Sam's head that he was impure at an early age or later in life? 

I'm theorizing that Sam sensed, by the way John spoke to him, spoke about him, treated him in general, that "there was something wrong with him and it was more than just being an outsider due to his family's lifestyle." [quoting DittyDotDot]

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

I'm theorizing that Sam sensed, by the way John spoke to him, spoke about him, treated him in general, that "there was something wrong with him and it was more than just being an outsider due to his family's lifestyle." [quoting DittyDotDot]

Ack! Sorry. I didn't get that it was theorizing! I was thinking you were saying it was something that was more or less demonstrated. I get it now!

[trxr4kids]

29 minutes ago, auntvi said:

My point is that what John knew about Azazel and/or the demon blood in relation to Sam (and he knew early on that something supernatural had happened to Sam) probably affected his interactions with Sam and may have been why Sam felt impure, that there was something wrong inside.

I didn't think John knew about Azazel's plans until shortly before his death and he didn't interact with Sam other then what was shown but maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

[companionenvy]

I...actually agree with both sides here? I don't think that Sam spent the bulk of his childhood consciously believing he was tainted. But I do think that there may have been times in which he had an inkling of something intrinsically off about himself, as opposed to the life he was leading. This seems plausible to me, given that we know that Sam was not totally free of demonic influence from the night of the fire to the night he started getting his visions. We know that there were demons subtly checking up on him throughout his life, any of whom could have said or done something to ping the hinky-radar of someone raised among the supernatural. Plus, if Azazel is to be believed, the demon blood that Sam drank at six months old did have an effect on him.  In In the Beginning, YED tells Dean (referring to what he would do to Dean's sibling  and the other kids in the future) that "Demon blood is better than ovaltine -- it makes you big and strong."

On one level, that's just Kripke hinting at what's going on with Sam in the present, but it also suggests that even the small amount of demon blood the children were fed in childhood had an influence in what they became. Whose to say that Sam wouldn't have occasionally experienced some rage or darkness that wasn't quite his own? 

As for John, I don't think he knew details until fairly late in the game, but he may well have figured out much earlier that whatever killed Mary wanted something with Sam, specifically. This wouldn't, IMO, have totally shaped his relationship to Sam, but I can again see him having periodically betrayed some anxiety that Sam would have picked up on. 

So while hindsight is twenty-twenty, and S4 and S8 Sam is reframing his past experiences in terms of what he now knows about himself, the idea that younger Sam had hints of something wrong makes sense to me. I wouldn't call it a retcon, either, even if the writing staff didn't write earlier scenes with that in mind. To me, something is a retcon only if it subverts previously established canon.. By that standard, the trickster being Gabriel isn't a retcon, because it doesn't actually negate anything that happens in Tall Tales. If Kripke had know at the time that the Trickster was going to be Gabriel, he wouldn't have had to change anything about the episode. On the other hand, "Chuck Is And Has Always Been God" is a retcon, because there are multiple scenes that do not add up if the Chuck we initially meet was God all along. You can fanwank it into consistency, but  a writer who had believed that Chuck was God would not have written "The Monster at the End of its Book" in precisely its current form.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

but  a writer who had believed that Chuck was God would not have written "The Monster at the End of its Book" in precisely its current form.

At least one would hope not.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think John treated Sam in a particular way that put the idea into Sam's head that he was impure at an early age or later in life?  Do you think there were things John did to make Sam think that? Again, not saying you're saying that just looking for clarity :)

I'll say it - yeah, I kinda do... it's just my opinion, but it makes sense to me. Even if John didn't find out the whole truth from Missouri way back when... he knew about the "demon." He knew the "demon" was in Sam's nursery, and so he had to wonder why. Had it done something to Sam or did it still want to do something to Sam? Again why? So even if he didn't want to consciously think something about Sam was "different," with the lifestyle they lead, running from (and simultaneously to) this awful legacy, I can't see how John didn't look at Sam differently. The wife he loved died in Sam's nursery - it would be human to wonder why and what about Sam made that happen.

And that's not something I thought about and felt later. I considered that as soon as coma-walker-Dean said (paraphrase) "Oh, you know something all right. You've known for a while" in "In My Time of Dying," and put that together with the "I went to Missouri and learned the truth" line. I even then started wondering exactly why John went to "check up on" Sam in Stanford and wondered if at least one of the big reasons wasn't to make sure Sam wasn't going evil and / or being influenced by the Yellow Eyed Demon.

I also think that kids can pick up on things more than people think, and despite Dean and John's attempts to keep things from Sam, little Sam was observant and could tell things were going on that they weren't telling him... I don't find it unbelievable that Sam could have picked up on vibes coming from John and wondering why - beyond the age difference - that John maybe unconsciously treated him differently than Dean even if he wasn't aware of it. I think @companionenvy describes it well.

And also the added demons checking up on Sam thing. I'd momentarily forgotten about that, companionenvy, but that's a good point. Sam might have somehow picked up on the evil vibes and wondered what that meant about him and/or why he was feeling those things.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That is also a retcon but IMO since it was all induced by the demon blood detox it's not really a reliable measure of what Sam REALLY felt about himself at 8 years old just his insecurities that have arisen as a result of him drinking that demon blood in s4. 

I don't know. At the time, I remember thinking that it was a pretty accurate assessment of how Sam likely felt and explained how he was so vulnerable to Ruby's manipulations in the first place. To me, Sam wanting to try to turn his being tainted with demon blood into something positive instead, to prove that he could do something "good" with the "evil" inside him (as he talked about in "Metamorphosis," I think), makes more sense if Sam had somehow always felt a little bit like this in some way rather than something he just learned and felt a couple of years before in "All Hell..." It even ties into why Sam didn't tell Dean about the demon blood. For me it even ties into the Sam wanting to feel in control of himself thing... not just because of their lifestyle, but because he always thought maybe there was something wrong with / different about himself that he had no choice in / control over. That made sense to me.

His wanting to get rid of the taint / wrongness inside of him didn't to me feel like something he just came up with in season 8. It was something he'd tried before in other ways - like in season 4 when he was trying to prove to himself that he could use that taint for good somehow and instead fell into addiction.

But that's my interpretation of things.

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And even if he did feel "unclean" as a child, he was granted absolution by God himself in Dark Side of the Moon, which IMO is/should be the best "purification" anyone could possibly ask for, so continuing to complain that he was "unclean" years later seems kind of...blasphemous?

Dean was granted the same absolution even without the "And with everything you've done, too" reprimand / dig... and he still later insisted that he was crap. I guess even something like God granting you absolution isn't going to overcome everything that came before - or in Sam's case after. Because after God's supposed absolution, Sam still ended up in the cage with Lucifer to experience whatever mindscrew Lucifer perpetrated on him for a 100+ years to undo whatever feeling of absolution Sam might've gotten from what Joshua said. That likely got undone fairly quickly on in Sam's stint in the cage. After "being one" with Lucifer - in more ways than one - it doesn't seem that far-fetched to me that Sam would feel tainted again even on a basic level.

But that's my opinion on that.

Edited September 27, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here's something to consider

Ruby wanted Sam all to herself so he would kill Lilith. Since it was pretty much mostly Ruby's demon blood he was sucking down, then it seems reasonable to me that it was really the demon blood and the detox causing him to see all that because it was twisting his soul and his mind. It's hallucinations, which I'm not sure should be given any more weight than the Lucifer Hallucinations in s7 that made him believe things about himself that weren't actually factual not in reality. 

Prior to that episode Sam, IIRC,  as a child. Sam was only shown to be thinking he was a freak but not that he was evil or dirty or wrong at 8 years old. That is also a retcon but IMO since it was all induced by the demon blood detox it's not really a reliable measure of what Sam REALLY felt about himself at 8 years old just his insecurities that have arisen as a result of him drinking that demon blood in s4.  

I guess it depends how you define being a freak. I think Sam thought being a freak meant that he was wrong or abnormal, not necessarily evil though. And, I don't think he's saying he thought he was evil in The Greatest Escapist either, just that he felt that there was something wrong with him.

[ILoveReading]

Everything, I've heard about this season just further cements by belief that not only does Dabb have zero use for Dean as a character I'm starting to believe he really dislikes the character too.

There is no other way to explain deconstruction of Dean that started in 12B and seems to be continuing this season.

Edited September 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Everything, I've heard about this season just further cements by belief that not only does Dabb have zero use for Dean as a character I'm starting to believe he really dislikes the character

And possibly even the actor who portrays him. I've heard of this happening on other shows. I'm extremely curious to know more about the recent contract talks now.

I'm guessing nothing was said at the NJ convention about them; unless I missed something.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I...actually agree with both sides here?

GASP!  Is that allowed???  ;)

(Quite the rebel, aren't you?  I like it! )

[catrox14]

Going back to the discussion awhile back about whether Dean would have given Cas money in the past, I was just watching Two Minutes to Midnight and thought' YES, there it is. I KNEW Dean had gotten money to someone in the past and it was Cas.

Quote

DEAN All right. Awesome. Then, end of discussion. (Dean's phone rings) This isn't over. Hello?

CASTIEL Dean?

DEAN Cas?

SAM Is he okay?

DEAN We all thought you were Dead. Where the hell are you, man?

(cut to Castiel in a hospital bed)

CASTIEL A hospital.

DEAN Are you okay?

CASTIEL No.

DEAN You want to elaborate?

CASTIEL I just woke up here. The doctors were fairly surprised. They thought I was brain-dead.

DEAN S-so, a hospital?

CASTIEL Apparently, after Van Nuys, I suddenly appeared, bloody and unconscious, on a shrimping boat off Delacroix. I'm told it upset the sailors.

DEAN Uh, well, I got to tell you, man -- You're just in time. We figured out a way to pop Satan's box.

CASTIEL How?

DEAN It's a long story, but, look --we're going after Pestilence now. So if you want to zap over here...

CASTIEL I can't "zap" anywhere.

DEAN What do you mean?

CASTIEL You could say my batteries are -- are drained.

DEAN What do you mean? You're out of angel mojo?

CASTIEL I'm saying that I am thirsty and my head aches. I have a bug bite that itches no matter how much I scratch it, and I'm saying that I'm just incredibly...

DEAN Human. Wow. Sorry.

CASTIEL Well, my point is -- I can't go anywhere without money for...an airplane ride. And food. And more pain medication, ideally.

DEAN All right. Well, look, no worries. Uh, Bobby's here. He'll wire you the cash.

CASTIEL Dean, wait.

BOBBY I will?

CASTIEL You said "no" to Michael. I owe you an apology.

DEAN Cas...I-it's okay.

CASTIEL You are not the burnt and broken shell of a man that I believed you to be.

DEAN Thank you. I appreciate that.

CASTIEL You're welcome.

IMO, Dean was probably going to give Bobby the money to wire to Cas because Dean and Sam were getting ready to go after Pestilence and Dean might not get out alive.  Or maybe Dean didn't have the money and was asking Bobby to send it. Either way Dean facilitated getting Cas the money he would need. Cas must have gotten it because later in the episode, Cas shows up at the nursing home and said "I took a bus".

So yes, Dean has found a way to give Cas money in the past after the became human in s5.

Here is the clip for reference. IMO, Dean is sympathetic to Castiel's situation

Edited September 29, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Dean was probably going to give Bobby the money to wire to Cas because Dean and Sam were getting ready to go after Pestilence and Dean might not get out alive.  Or maybe Dean didn't have the money and was asking Bobby to send it.

I think I'd go with the latter.  Bobby's reaction said he wasn't expecting to get paid back.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here is the clip for reference. IMO, Dean is sympathetic to Castiel's situation

Sure, but Sam's life wasn't being threatened at the moment either.  Different situation, imo.  

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sure, but Sam's life wasn't being threatened at the moment either.  Different situation, imo.  

It's been a minute since the discussion but IIRC, the question arose as to whether Dean had ever assisted someone with money prior to s9. This shows that Dean did facilitate getting another person some money when they needed it.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think I'd go with the latter.  Bobby's reaction said he wasn't expecting to get paid back.

IMO it's 50/50 whether Dean gave Bobby the money to send to Cas, or if Dean would pay Bobby back. IMO it was more that Bobby was being grumpy that Dean told him to do something considering Bobby doesn't like being told what do by anyone and is typically the one barking orders at Dean. Either way, Dean was the only person who heard Cas say he needed the money and he reassured Cas he would get some money and asked/told Bobby to make sure it happened.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's been a minute since the discussion but IIRC, the question arose as to whether Dean had ever assisted someone with money prior to s9. This shows that Dean did facilitate getting another person some money when they needed it.

Ah.  I don't remember that particular question, so I'll take your word for it.  :)  As I recall, part of the disagreement about whether or not Dean helped Cas was not entirely predicated on whether or not Dean had ever helped anyone financially prior to that episode.  That just my take.  

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ah.  I don't remember that particular question, so I'll take your word for it.  :)  As I recall, part of the disagreement about whether or not Dean helped Cas was not entirely predicated on whether or not Dean had ever helped anyone financially prior to that episode.  That just my take.  

My post was addressing only the specific question of whether or not Dean had helped get someone money before s10. 

[CluelessDrifter]

On 8/30/2017 at 10:26 PM, Aeryn13 said:

You can nominally get away with some things in a movie that just do not work in a television show. But for example the Terminator, I see Sarah Connor as the protagonist and focal character of the first movie. She is at the center of the plot and she goes on the character journey. In the second movie the progatonist and focal character is John. Either case, I have no problem with any divide there so those stories work for me.

Sorry, this is so late.  I just saw this.  It's interesting that you say that, because Kyle Reese would often be considered the protagonist and Sarah Connor is the focal character.  The way you see that movie is consistent with how you see Sam and Dean's roles.

Edited September 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My post was addressing only the specific question of whether or not Dean had helped get someone money before s10. 

Yes, I understood that from your previous post.  :)

Edited September 29, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
clarification

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam  was the one who didn't write Cas off and thought he was "one of us" in "Meet the New Boss." Sam was worried about leaving Castiel behind in "The Born-Again Identity." It was Sam who noticed something was wrong with Castiel in season 8. I thought they bonded fairly well in "First Born."

Meet the New Boss, and indeed season 7 in general, presents the Sam and Cas friendship much more positively. On the one hand, you have Sam who wants to reach out to Cas because he’s one of them and Dean who is more interested in summoning Death and screaming “Kill him” rather than trying to help or depower. 

 

Im rewatching season 7 at the moment and I find it hard to buy Dean’s grief for Cas since he’d have been his murderer had he had his own way. Yes, Death would have done the deed, but since Dean was in control of him Death would have been essentially the gun and Dean the shooter

 

ETA: Major name mistake. Obviously Dean has never tried to murder Sam.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Meet the New Boss, and indeed season 7 in general, presents the Sam and Cas friendship much more positively. On the one hand, you have Sam who wants to reach out to Cas because he’s one of them and Dean who is more interested in summoning Death and screaming “Kill him” rather than trying to help or depower. 

 

Im rewatching season 7 at the moment and I find it hard to buy Dean’s grief for Cas since he’d have been his murderer had he had his own way. Yes, Death would have done the deed, but since Dean was in control of him Death would have been essentially the gun and Dean the shooter

 

ETA: Major name mistake. Obviously Dean has never tried to murder Sam.

In the S6 finale, he begged Cas to let the souls go, that he (Dean) didn't want to lose him, and Cas refuses. Then Sam (ineffectively) stabs him in the back in an attempt to kill him, which of course doesn't work, and Cas goes full Monty on the New-God thing. So yeah, Dean could and did still mourn his friend Castiel while also being willing to have Death kill the megalomaniacal WMD he had become.

Edited October 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In the S6 finale, he begged Cas to let the souls go, that he (Dean) didn't want to lose him, and Cas refuses. Then Sam (ineffectively) stabs him in the back in an attempt to kill him, which of course doesn't work, and Cas goes full Monty on the New-God thing. So yeah, Dean could and did still mourn his friend Castiel while also being willing to have Death kill the megalomaniacal WMD he had become.

A serious question, without any sarcasm etc on my part,

 

Do you think if it had been Bobby or Sam or John Dean would have been so quick to start screaming "kill him"? Or do you think in those instances he'd have been looking for Death to drain them of the extra power instead?

[companionenvy]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

m rewatching season 7 at the moment and I find it hard to buy Dean’s grief for Cas since he’d have been his murderer had he had his own way. Yes, Death would have done the deed, but since Dean was in control of him Death would have been essentially the gun and Dean the shooter

I think there's a few things going on here:

1. Dean's fury at Cas  was a consequence of his closeness to him, which led him to feel hurt and betrayed with a level of intensity that transcended Sam's (to respond to gonzosgirrl's point, Sam did try to kill Cas in the moment, but he forgave him much more readily than Dean, and wasn't nearly as emotionally affected by what Cas had done).

2. Sam's actions in S4 make him more likely to forgive Cas for doing awful things for what he thought were the right reasons.

3. Dean has a tendency to personalize things much more than Sam does. What Sam sees as "Cas was working with Crowley to collect souls," Dean sees as "Cas has lied to me."

The same intensity that leads Dean to his utter rage at Cas also leads to his overwhelming grief at his death. It isn't a contradiction; just deep emotion manifesting itself in two radically different ways. 

[FlickChick]

8 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think there's a few things going on here:

1. Dean's fury at Cas  was a consequence of his closeness to him, which led him to feel hurt and betrayed with a level of intensity that transcended Sam's (to respond to gonzosgirrl's point, Sam did try to kill Cas in the moment, but he forgave him much more readily than Dean, and wasn't nearly as emotionally affected by what Cas had done).

2. Sam's actions in S4 make him more likely to forgive Cas for doing awful things for what he thought were the right reasons.

3. Dean has a tendency to personalize things much more than Sam does. What Sam sees as "Cas was working with Crowley to collect souls," Dean sees as "Cas has lied to me."

The same intensity that leads Dean to his utter rage at Cas also leads to his overwhelming grief at his death. It isn't a contradiction; just deep emotion manifesting itself in two radically different ways. 

Agree with this so much. It's always the ones we love the most that can hurt us beyond words. And the resulting grief is devastating.  What you say about Sam is also true, especially forgiving Cas' mistakes as Sam would like others to forgive his.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

A serious question, without any sarcasm etc on my part,

 

Do you think if it had been Bobby or Sam or John Dean would have been so quick to start screaming "kill him"? Or do you think in those instances he'd have been looking for Death to drain them of the extra power instead?

The Dean from S1 or S2, no. But I am less sure of that with S7 Dean. I don't think he would ever be ready to kill Sam, but Bobby or John? Yes. And he wasn't dealing with a rogue, juiced up human, he was dealing with an angel who had obtained the power of God and point blank refused to give it up. It's debatable that Death was even capable of killing him or draining him of the souls, IMO, and it wasn't just Dean in that room - they all worked together to summon and bind Death.

Edited October 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Unpopular Opinions" thread:

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What was Dean's redemption?

Dean got to be a major factor in saving the world, heroically having to be willing to potentially sacrifice himself to fix a problem that his stupid little brother had carelessly caused. Again.

And that on top of not even really needing much of a redemption to begin with, because everything Dean had done to save Sam had been shown to be something Sam would, and eventually did, do anyway, so really what had Dean done that was so awful if Sam would do the same thing? So Dean got both confirmation and redemption on that front. And his taking of the mark of Cain only resulted in bad because of what Sam did, so not even that needed much redemption. He did kill Abaddon, saving the world from her, too, and his being a demon and having the mark caused no real harm. So as I see it, Dean came out way ahead in this storyline. He ended up being justified in taking on the mark and he helped save an apocalypse that he didn't directly start.

Meanwhile, Sam never got that kind of redemption, because what Sam did - especially abandoning Kevin - didn't really have any excuse, but Carver made sure that Sam selfishly and self-absorbedly doubled down on his choice to just go live a life while abandoning everyone for reasons I'll never understand. And on top of that, he was cruel to his brother over things he himself would do, being shown as somewhat hypocritical, and he started an apocalypse which he had no role in stopping. So as I see it, Sam came out way behind in Carver's storyline. Becoming someone who abandoned Kevin - who should have been Sam's responsibility - so he could have a normal life, failing to close the gates of hell, sort of blaming that on Dean (Carver, you suck sometimes), hypocritically being angry at Dean for saving him, and then starting an apocalypse he had no part in helping to stop. Though I could be missing something, I personally don't really see any redemption there for Sam from Carver.

Quote

To me an apology is something like 'I realize my actions harmed you. What I did hurt you and I am sorry for the hurt I caused you'. Like saying the words "I'm sorry. I apologize for my actions".  I don't mean this in a b v j way at all. No matter who that was directed at, Sam said  "I should have looked for you more. I shouldn't have stopped. And I never forgave myself for that'. IMO, that made it more about Sam's guilt causing him his own pain, rather than the acknowledgment of the harm done to the other person. Which leaves me trying to understand what Dabb was going for there. For my part, I'm probably overly harsh on this area of "non apology apologies" because I have had too many people in my life try to pass those off as apologies. 

Well, considering the Carver years, for me this was better than nothing. It was something rather than nothing... which is what we were given before. The "and I never forgave myself for that" at least showed that Sam felt badly about what he'd done and hadn't forgotten what he'd done. Compare that to Carver's "well, I explained that I didn't look for you. What more do you want from me, geesh?" I think I much prefer the former.

As you say, it wasn't the best, but considering what Sam got for storylines before - see my above - this was a drink of water in the desert. In my opinion anyway.

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ah, Okay. I guess I didn't see that was redemption for the MoC but more that he was conscripted into it because Amara had a hold on him and no one else could get near her. I think both of them helped defeat her. Sam doesn't rally the troops they don't come up with the solution but drink themselves into oblivion. At least that's how I see it. But I can see why you see it as redemption for Dean. Just a long time after. I was thinking you meant the Mark was itself some kind of redemption so I was confused! Sorry!

And if Dean doesn't come to Stull to be with Sam, Sam doesn't get what he needs to defeat Lucifer, but I see this being dismissed as inconsequential and that Dean had no part in defeating Lucifer. If that is the case, then for me, Sam's role as "cheerleader" (in this case literally) shouldn't get much weight either. If the cheerleader role is good for one, it should also be good for the other.

So I guess by my own logic, I should give Sam some credit here - since I give Dean credit for the season 5 finale. I guess the fact that Dean was actually there at Stull, risking his life to be with Sam, kind of gives it a little more weight for me. Sure Sam rallied the troops, but once he did, everyone else came up with the ideas and actually did the dangerous stuff.

And I think also that Sam pretty much caused the problem in the first place - in both instances - kind of annoys me, too.

So you've convinced me - Sam gets some credit... but still for me, not quite as much as Dean gets for the season 5 finale. And for me, not quite enough for Sam to get redemption for causing Amara and causing 1000s of deaths - which deaths in my opinion had little to no bearing on the narrative, so the writers just threw it in there - as usual in the Carver era - to pile crap onto Sam. It was kind of annoying in my opinion.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So I guess by my own logic, I should give Sam some credit here - since I give Dean credit for the season 5 finale. I guess the fact that Dean was actually there at Stull, risking his life to be with Sam, kind of gives it a little more weight for me. Sure Sam rallied the troops, but once he did, everyone else came up with the ideas and actually did the dangerous stuf

 

Dean didn't have a rally the troops moment in Swan Song. He decided to go not let his brother die alone. That's why he went. He didn't have any kind of active role at all other than driving there and being a punching bag.

Sam did risk his life. He went ghost soul hunting at the asylum and was under attack when Dean did the thing with the soul collecting device.

Back at the bunker though before that Dean, Cas, Crowley, Rowena and Chuck FFS were sitting around lamenting the end and that it was pointless. If Sam hadn't chastised them all and scolded them about getting their heads in the game, nothing would have gotten done. He shamed them into action.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If the cheerleader role is good for one, it should also be good for the other.

Like.  Like.  Like.  Like. LikeLikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelikelike......

[companionenvy]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't have a rally the troops moment in Swan Song. He decided to go not let his brother die alone. That's why he went. He didn't have any kind of active role at all other than driving there and being a punching bag.

Sam did risk his life. He went ghost soul hunting at the asylum and was under attack when Dean did the thing with the soul collecting device.

We've discussed to death the opinion of myself and others that Dean being there at Stull did make a difference, so I'm not going to go there again.

The point I do want to make is that the arc that ended in Swan Song was a much, much larger and more developed one in which Dean had at numerous points played a vital role. Even accepting, for the moment, the idea that Dean had no effect on the outcome at Stull, the fact that he happened to have done things like gotten Death's ring and killed Zachariah in the episodes before Swan Song, rather than in the finale itself, doesn't take away his contribution.

Also, as AwesomeO frequently notes, the context of who started/is most directly blamed for the crisis is relevant as well. In Swan Song, Sam was cleaning up his mess. At the end of 11, Dean was cleaning up Sam's mess. So, the merit to demerit ratio, so to speak, winds up really skewed.