“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Lastcall]

52 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So "demoting" Crowley to recurring was an insult which could be explained as a cost-cutting measure to prevent any repercussions except, as happened, having MS quit, which is probably what they wanted in the first place.  Win-win for showrunner, lose-lose for MS.

And not letting him use the "even when I lose, I win" line was vindictive as hell.

[Nick24]

2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

And not letting him use the "even when I lose, I win" line was vindictive as hell.

Didn't they let him say that line at all or they just cut it?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Didn't they let him say that line at all or they just cut it?

I don't know if he said it or wasn't allowed but he was upset about it. Actors on SPN adlibbed better lines and even changed other things and it usually was for the better. It's not like anything Dabb has ever written is sacred or even just good.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

So apparently some particular actors could get what they want, when they want, how they want, because the showrunners loved them.

On the other hand, the others had to either keep their mouths shut or be ready to be treated like crap. It smells of dictatorship and favoritism in the worst way possible.

And what really sucks is that Mark Pelligrino got the sweetest deal because everyone involved cared more about Lucifer than the Winchesters.

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Also lose-lose for the show, because after getting rid of Crowley we got stuck with Lucifer/Nick, Jack and the other one-dimensional writers' pets. 

And let's not forget about the Colonel Sanders knockoff, aka Crowley lite.

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And what really sucks is that Mark Pelligrino got the sweetest deal because everyone involved cared more about Lucifer than the Winchesters.

Their obsession with Lucifer/Pellegrino seems really weird to me. Personally I could tolerate the character in Season 5. When they brought him in S7 I was really annoyed and I couldn't stand him at all. I was glad when they got rid of him in S7 and I was hoping they would never bring him back, because the character became one-note and had nothing to do but being snarky. And OMG, I was so frustrated when they brought him back again in S11 (and ruined the whole point of S1-5 btw). And then he stole the show. Completely. SPN had so many potentially interesting characters, who were killed off too early (Benny, Abaddon, Naomi, Cain, etc.), but no, the writers wanted to write for whining brat of an archangel. So stupid. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Their obsession with Lucifer/Pellegrino seems really weird to me. Personally I could tolerate the character in Season 5. When they brought him in S7 I was really annoyed and I couldn't stand him at all. I was glad when they got rid of him in S7 and I was hoping they would never bring him back, because the character became one-note and had nothing to do but being snarky. And OMG, I was so frustrated when they brought him back again in S11 (and ruined the whole point of S1-5 btw). And then he stole the show. Completely. SPN had so many potentially interesting characters, who were killed off too early (Benny, Abaddon, Naomi, Cain, etc.), but no, the writers wanted to write for whining brat of an archangel. So stupid. 

It really goes to show what superior writing can do. The writers from the Kripke era wrote a truly chilling character, Gamble crammed him into Sam's lackluster "hell wall" storyline and lessened his prior impact while Dabb and Co. gave us a whiny narcissist and tried to make him sympathetic. By the show's end I was completely over Lucifer and Mark Pelligrino even though I've thoroughly enjoyed him in other projects.

[MAK]

12 hours ago, BornToDie said:

This need to continually villainize Jared and Sam borders on the ridiculous, especially since the prequel gate incident was a year ago.

Criticizing how writers wrote for Sam/Jared versus how they wrote for Dean/Jensen, does not villainize either the character Sam or the actor Jared.

To say certain producers/directors/showrunners favored one does not villainize them. 

Also, where does "evil" come into it?

[Lastcall]

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

It really goes to show what superior writing can do. The writers from the Kripke era wrote a truly chilling character, Gamble crammed him into Sam's lackluster "hell wall" storyline and lessened his prior impact while Dabb and Co. gave us a whiny narcissist and tried to make him sympathetic. By the show's end I was completely over Lucifer and Mark Pelligrino even though I've thoroughly enjoyed him in other projects.

That was the downfall of the Dabb era. The story didn't have an end point like Kripke and Carver. Kripke had a 5-season story he wanted to tell and knew how it ended. Carver had a similar plan but he his story was only enough for 3 to 4 seasons.  The Dabb era was the wild west. There was no plan, and everyone was writing for their pets. The first time I recognized a writer's pet was with Charlie Bradbury. Once I realized what was going on I began to resent the character, but she pales in comparison to the army of stand in's, pets, and Mary Sues the Dabb years brought in.

Dabb was team Sam all the way. He didn't care about Dean or Crowley at all, and it showed. Berens was all in on Castiel and the waywards (particularly Kaia). The Duo wasn't obsessed with characters, they were team Pelligrino (and probably Jack as Lucifers son). Davy was a Dabb lackey so team Sam where he forgets Dean is even in the episode and he vanishes. I had hopes for Glynn, but time proved the fans who said Regarding Dean was her goodbye episode to Dean as she fell under Dabb's sway from that episode forward. Yockey put all his energy into new characters with lots of potential, but Dabb didn't care about those at all, and they were wasted. Everyone else brought in were interns and young writers who only cared about what twitter wants. The only bright spot for me was Jeremy Adams. He clearly was a Dean fan. I've seen criticism about his episodes but his were the only ones that felt like Supernatural to me and he reminded me of why Dean is one of my favorite fictional characters.

The main problem with the Dabb era was lack of leadership and warring factions within the writer's room. I'm very optimistic that the prequel and eventual reunion know the story they want to tell and so far, the interviews have confirmed this. I'm looking forward to finding out who the writers are and hope one of them is Jeremy Adams.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

 Berens was all in on Castiel

IDK Berens totally ruined Castiel for me. He made me loathe the character as much as I did Jack. He had really become Asstiel thanks to Berens.

ETA: And no, Berens, Cas's speech in 15.18 did not do anything for me. It came out of nowhere. More than that, I see a lot of in common between that speech and John's speech to Dean in 2.01. They both said something nice to Dean first, but then they put another weight on Dean' shoulders.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

That was the downfall of the Dabb era. The story didn't have an end point like Kripke and Carver. Kripke had a 5-season story he wanted to tell and knew how it ended. Carver had a similar plan but he his story was only enough for 3 to 4 seasons. 

I am wondering, what would have been Carver's endgame. I've heard about his 3-years-plan, so apparently the MoC was supposed to be the final mytharc. Good choice, I guess 😄

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

The only bright spot for me was Jeremy Adams. He clearly was a Dean fan. I've seen criticism about his episodes but his were the only ones that felt like Supernatural to me and he reminded me of why Dean is one of my favorite fictional characters.

Oh, I agree, that there was good Dean's characterization in Jeremy Adams' episodes. IMO Adams had problems with the genre. He's more about cartoons. I wouldn't mind him in the prequel, but he would need a good supervisor in this case. 

[Lastcall]

41 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I am wondering, what would have been Carver's endgame. I've heard about his 3-years-plan, so apparently the MoC was supposed to be the final mytharc. Good choice, I guess 😄

I believe it was always going to end with Chuck and Amara leaving the world. If it was the series finale it would probably have been more permanent, but Carver knew the show was still years from finishing. That's why season 11 was so schizophrenic. He had to pad out his story and set up things for the transition to Dabb. I think Dabb was firmly in control of the show by Red Meat. Carver got his ending but also had to alter it for the new regime. 

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

I believe it was always going to end with Chuck and Amara leaving the world.

I could go with this too. But I was more interested what his endgame for Dean and Sam would have looked like. Open-mind version or ''Let's kill 'em all!'' or something fresh. Of course we'll never get to know. 

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

That's why season 11 was so schizophrenic. 

I love your description! 

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

 I think Dabb was firmly in control of the show by Red Meat. 

It seemed to me that Dabb/Berens had been doing whatever they wanted to since the beginning of S11, at least in their own episodes.

ETA: I guess only Robbie Thompson's and Nancy Won's episodes  made S11 work for me. IIRC Thompson was the only writer in the 2nd half of the season who remembered about Dean/Amara link and used it in his episodes. Nancy Won was good at characterization IIRC. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

I didn’t see them as trying to redeem Lucifer in S13, just to show how manipulative and charming he could be.

If we take a look at 13.22 or any other Buckner/Ross-Leming episode, this is clear to me, that they were trying to redeem Lucifer. Al least the Duo was interested in it.

[FlickChick]

On 6/2/2022 at 9:35 AM, Lastcall said:

I believe it was always going to end with Chuck and Amara leaving the world. If it was the series finale it would probably have been more permanent, but Carver knew the show was still years from finishing. That's why season 11 was so schizophrenic. He had to pad out his story and set up things for the transition to Dabb. I think Dabb was firmly in control of the show by Red Meat. Carver got his ending but also had to alter it for the new regime. 

Jensen mentioned in a con/interview that the last three episodes of S11 were a mess and didn't gel at all. He said that both he and Jared had to sit down with the writers and Dabb to make them cohesive. Dabb was definitely running the show at that time. And the fact that his stars had to do this, should have given TPTB a clue that maybe he wasn't the best choice for showrunner. What a bunch of  dumb-asses.👿

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Jensen mentioned in a con/interview that the last three episodes of S11 were a mess and didn't gel at all. He said that both he and Jared had to sit down with the writers and Dabb to make them cohesive. Dabb was definitely running the show at that time. And the fact that his stars had to do this, should have given TPTB a clue that maybe he wasn't the best choice for showrunner. What a bunch of  dumb-asses.👿

But what happened to Carver? He was credited as an Executive Producer til the end of S11. Actually, he was credited as an EP even in S12-13, which was a surprise. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

There's a long, long list of problems because of Dabb, but to me, the worst was turning Chuck into God. And not only God, but one who was a puppet master and supposedly "wrote" every action, choice, thought, etc. that his "favorite characters" did. That to me is by far, why they never, never ever should have put that asshole in charge of anything. But since I simply ignore S12-15 as Chuck's wet dream, I can still enjoy watching the re-runs of the show and still thoroughly enjoy watching DeanfuckingWinchester.

[FlickChick]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

But what happened to Carver? He was credited as an Executive Producer til the end of S11. Actually, he was credited as an EP even in S12-13, which was a surprise. 

He went onto another show as showrunner and had to write/prepare it for the season. I think it was "Being Human"? But I'm not sure, it's just that he had to focus on that. TPTB must have approved it, knowing that he would be leaving regardless. I don't think they change the credits during a season or it could be that he could do that job, but not showrunner.

Edited June 3, 2022 by FlickChick

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

He went onto another show as showrunner and had to write/prepare it for the season. I think it was "Being Human"? But I'm not sure, it's just that he had to focus on that. TPTB must have approved it, knowing that he would be leaving regardless. I don't think they change the credits during a season or it could be that he could do that job, but not showrunner.

Wow. Working on some new project and keeping the old post at the same time must've been comfortable, I guess.

As for Dabb, maybe no one else wanted to run SPN anymore. All the co-execs (except the Duo and Dabb) left the building after S10-11 IIRC. Probably the former writers were not interested in coming back. I can see the point in this, because after God and God's sister it was questionable to continue the show. And we got Dabb. Actually, now I am not sure that the Duo would've been worse than him. Of course it would've been still horrible, but maybe not that horrible.

[DeeDee79]

On 6/2/2022 at 9:35 AM, Nick24 said:

IDK Berens totally ruined Castiel for me. He made me loathe the character as much as I did Jack. He had really become Asstiel thanks to Berens.

ETA: And no, Berens, Cas's speech in 15.18 did not do anything for me. It came out of nowhere. More than that, I see a lot of in common between that speech and John's speech to Dean in 2.01. They both said something nice to Dean first, but then they put another weight on Dean' shoulders.

Agreed. I liked Castiel less after Point of No Return, by season 12 I was indifferent and by season 14 he was dead to me.

[Lastcall]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

As for Dabb, maybe no one else wanted to run SPN anymore. All the co-execs (except the Duo and Dabb) left the building after S10-11 IIRC. Probably the former writers were not interested in coming back. I can see the point in this, because after God and God's sister it was questionable to continue the show. And we got Dabb. Actually, now I am not sure that the Duo would've been worse than him. Of course it would've been still horrible, but maybe not that horrible.

I think that is what happened. No one wanted to go to a show that was seen on its last legs. Getting to 11 seasons is a miracle so there probably weren't a lot of hot young show runners that wanted to go to a show that only had a few years left (the irony is they could have gotten seven seasons easy if they had). There were many rumors that the Duo got much more power after Dabb had a meltdown over the show ending and the spin off not being picked up. 14x10 on is pretty much how a Duo run show would be. Edlund reminisced once that he should have campaigned as show runner. He probably wouldn't have been available if they approached him for 12 (he was focused on The Tick), but he said he had a three-season story which would have ended with Sam and Dean as basically Demi-Gods. I would have loved to see that run.

[Nick24]

17 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Edlund reminisced once that he should have campaigned as show runner. 

Oh, again salt on wounds :( He could have saved SPN and our mental health.

17 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

He probably wouldn't have been available if they approached him for 12 (he was focused on The Tick), but he said he had a three-season story which would have ended with Sam and Dean as basically Demi-Gods. I would have loved to see that run.

WOW! That could have been great! More than that, it could have been done in S11 finale. For example, Chuck and Amara could've transferred their powers to Dean and Sam in order to keep the balance of the universe and then left. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

45 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

There's a long, long list of problems because of Dabb, but to me, the worst was turning Chuck into God. And not only God, but one who was a puppet master and supposedly "wrote" every action, choice, thought, etc. that his "favorite characters" did. That to me is by far, why they never, never ever should have put that asshole in charge of anything. But since I simply ignore S12-15 as Chuck's wet dream, I can still enjoy watching the re-runs of the show and still thoroughly enjoy watching DeanfuckingWinchester.

As much as I trash 12-15, there were a handful of episodes I liked. Also, the things Dabb couldn't control like stunts and Jensen's performance. I can't decide if it was worth it or not. I'm really happy that Scoobynatural exists. I loved the Jeremy Adams eps in season 15 as much as those in season 10. If the John Wick fight was real Dean then it would have been my favorite Dean moment of the series. I even like the Dean taking out Hitler and Lucifer. At the same time, I refused to watch 14 and 15 until I knew how it all ended. I am still torn if the tiny crumbs they threw the Dean fans was worth it. 

[Nick24]

27 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Agreed. I liked Castiel less after Point of No Return, by season 12 I was indifferent and by season 14 he was dead to me.

I guess, Castiel became dead for me, when he asked Dean to torture in 9.21 King of the Damned. I did remember Season 4 and On The Head Of A Pin and how much it hurt Dean back there. And Castiel knowing about that was asking Dean again...This was absolutely unforgivable imo. 

And then in 10.03 Castiel was all about ''If we cannot cure Demon!Dean, we have to kill him". Sure, Dean had been always doing all he could to save their asses, but Castiel wanted just to kill him. Great. You don't need enemies with such ''friends''.

[Pondlass1]

I could never keep up with Castile’s powers coming and going sometimes even between commercials.  But what irritated me the most was dumb naive stupid Castiel (aka Misha) 🙄

And The notion that Dean and Sam were just brainless twits being controlled by Chuck god was Dabb’s FU to the show IMO.

 Knickers in a twist because he couldn’t nab  his bloody spin-offs. 

[Lastcall]

58 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I could never keep up with Castile’s powers coming and going sometimes even between commercials.  But what irritated me the most was dumb naive stupid Castiel (aka Misha) 🙄

And The notion that Dean and Sam were just brainless twits being controlled by Chuck god was Dabb’s FU to the show IMO.

 Knickers in a twist because he couldn’t nab  his bloody spin-offs. 

Castiel's power level has always been a problem going back to Kripke. Every show runner had to nerf him somehow so there was still a threat to Sam and Dean. They probably should have kept him human longer than they did but I see why they didn't think it was necessary due to Dean's Mark of Cain power up. 

What they should have done is Good Omens with Castiel and Crowley. Good Omens was one of Kripke's inspirations for Supernatural so Dabb didn't even need the Amazon series. Giving them buddy cop B stories would have solved many of their problems. Two characters with a large fan base that could give J2 more time off. But no....they wanted to tell the Michael/Lucifer story again...and the Gabriel story again...and create spin offs for new characters where they could tell the stories they were passionate about. 

[MAK]

13 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Castiel's power level has always been a problem going back to Kripke. Every show runner had to nerf him somehow so there was still a threat to Sam and Dean.

I wonder what Kripke would have done with Castiel had he stayed showrunner? One can guess he was ok with Gamble's Godstiel and death by Leviathan since he consulted? guided? Season 6.

Dean seemed intimidated by him in the beginning --- a truly powerful being who could throw him back in Hell. Then, I think, he started looking on Cas as an ally. Someone he could rely on to have his back. Someone he didn't have to worry about because they could take care of themselves. Someone who will help him shoulder some of the weight he has always carried. Of course that all goes to shit.

First, Cas lays a guilt trip on him about how Dean was disappointing him even after he rebelled because of him. (I'm pretty sure Dean's expression in that alleyway was: I didn't tell you to rebel, that was your choice!) Then, he leaves him alone to deal with Sam's jump into the cage. After Cas comes back, he becomes one more responsibility, never superseding Sam of course, but a second younger brother.* Someone he has to watch out for and take care of. Dean can't count on his powers to help out. He can't even depend on Castiel doing what he is supposed to be doing.  Then the whole Angel trials thing. Didn't Castiel realize that souls would be stuck in the veil if they closed the gates of Heaven? Everything Castiel did from S7 onwards for for self-redemprion. Much like Sam. "I have to do this so that I can make up for the mess I made last time I had to do something to make up for the mess I made the time before......" and repeat. Castiel has never truly had Dean's back. He says he does things "for" Dean, but he never does things truly "for" Dean, that are in Dean's true best interests. 

The worst thing was Dean's prayer in Purgatory. Grieving is very personal. "You didn't forgive me and move on," is an a*hole thing to say to anyone who has lost someone. Why did Dean have to apologize for his grief? Did Castiel ever truly apologize for not paying more attention to Jack?

And his hit or miss powers? Towards the end, he couldn't even recognize supernatural beings by looking at them. Forget flying, healing, etc. Castiel started out as a powerful badass, and they turned him into a whining, simping, teenager.

It was exactly opposite of the true camaraderie Dean had with Benny. Benny had his faults, but they were not hidden. Dean knew what Benny could and couldn't be counted on to do. Benny helped, that's it.

*As a related aside, I read a fanfic (don't want to credit the wrong author, since I don't remember who it was) about Dean, Sam, and Cas talking about their dynamic as brothers---who is oldest, middle, and youngest, and they didn't want to use age to determine the roles. They ended up with Dean being the eldest because he has always only had a younger brother; Castiel would be the middle child since he has always had older siblings and younger siblings (not sure if SPN said Castiel was the last angel created or that's more fanon); and Sam is the youngest since he has only ever had an older brother (Adam doesn't count).

[DeeDee79]

17 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Castiel's power level has always been a problem going back to Kripke. Every show runner had to nerf him somehow so there was still a threat to Sam and Dean.

Personally I think that his powers being diminished in season 5 due to being cut off from Heaven for rebelling was the only reason that made sense. He was still stronger than a human but he wasn't the all powerful being that he had been. Later on it just became ridiculous.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

 And his hit or miss powers? Towards the end, he couldn't even recognize supernatural beings by looking at them. Forget flying, healing, etc. Castiel started out as a powerful badass, and they turned him into a whining, simping, teenager.

 

IMO Castiel had become Sam 2.0 by the end of the show. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Nick24

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

Towards the end, he couldn't even recognize supernatural beings by looking at them

The silliest bit… for me… was when Cas (an angel whose business is souls) didn’t know Sam was soulless until he went rummaging around in his stomach.  The fairies knew, the alpha vampire knew, even the ‘truth’ goddess knew just by looking at Sam.

But I guess for plot reasons we had to be left wondering for 6 or 7 episodes.  Castiel became a plot device very quickly. 

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

Everything Castiel did from S7 onwards for for self-redemprion. Much like Sam. "I have to do this so that I can make up for the mess I made last time I had to do something to make up for the mess I made the time before......" and repeat. 

And every time he did the same mistakes and created more and more disasters. Just like Sam. Those two characters learned nothing.

1 hour ago, MAK said:

Castiel has never truly had Dean's back. He says he does things "for" Dean, but he never does things truly "for" Dean, that are in Dean's true best interests. 
 

Agreed, because neither Castiel nor Sam ever knew Dean. They thought/said they did, but actually they knew what they wanted Dean to be.

1 hour ago, MAK said:

The worst thing was Dean's prayer in Purgatory. Grieving is very personal. "You didn't forgive me and move on," is an a*hole thing to say to anyone who has lost someone. 

Agreed. This is a nasty thing to say IF you care about that particular person's feelings. Castiel didn't care about Dean's. He was all about himself and Jack. Familiar?

1 hour ago, MAK said:

Did Castiel ever truly apologize for not paying more attention to Jack?
 

I do not remember him apologizing. No surprise. That was Dean's job to apologize to everyone for everything, wasn't it?

[MAK]

17 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The silliest bit… for me… was when Cas (an angel whose business is souls) didn’t know Sam was soulless until he went rummaging around in his stomach.

My HC is that Crowley resurrected Sam, sans soul, using a spell similar to the one Jack and Rowena used to try to resurrect Mary. They only got Mary's body because the soul had already ascended into Heaven, and Jack's "intentions" apparently weren't pure enough.

I can only imagine how "free" a soul held in the cage ---by Lucifer himself--- would have been to be able to be summoned. Also, anyone think Crowley's intentions in S6 were "pure"?

Rebuilding a body was easy. Castiel did it for Dean all by himself when he was a lesser angel than he was in S6. But they needed a squad to "rescue" Dean from the pit. If getting a soul out of Hell was easy (in S6) they would have snapped their fingers to get Dean, and not lost any angels during the rescue.

I truly believe that Castiel knew that Sam was soulless the minute he was resurrected. He didn't tell Dean that Sam was back not because he wanted Dean to be happy, or because Sam didn't want to bother Dean, but because Dean would have realized right away that something was off, and Castiel couldn't do whatever it was that he wanted with Crowley.

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, MAK said:

My HC is that Crowley resurrected Sam, sans soul, using a spell similar to the one Jack and Rowena used to try to resurrect Mary. They only got Mary's body because the soul had already ascended into Heaven, and Jack's "intentions" apparently weren't pure enough.
 

But we were told in 6.20, that Castiel brought back Sam's body from the Cage.  Castiel was talking to himself about that. Crowley did not even talk about Sam, when he was having that chat with Castiel about Purgatory. After Castiel refused to call Dean, Crowley suggested Grandpa Samuel. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

7 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Castiel brought back Sam's body from the Cage. 

Fine line, IMO, between "brought it back himself" and "had it brought back." (Quotes are not dialogue)

Especially since Castiel was such a unreliable narrator. I think he sometimes lied to himself. 

Also, Crowley not saying anything doesn't mean anything.  He could keep his mouth shut. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by MAK
Added last line

[tessathereaper]

On 6/3/2022 at 6:50 PM, Lastcall said:

I think that is what happened. No one wanted to go to a show that was seen on its last legs. Getting to 11 seasons is a miracle so there probably weren't a lot of hot young show runners that wanted to go to a show that only had a few years left (the irony is they could have gotten seven seasons easy if they had). There were many rumors that the Duo got much more power after Dabb had a meltdown over the show ending and the spin off not being picked up. 14x10 on is pretty much how a Duo run show would be. Edlund reminisced once that he should have campaigned as show runner. He probably wouldn't have been available if they approached him for 12 (he was focused on The Tick), but he said he had a three-season story which would have ended with Sam and Dean as basically Demi-Gods. I would have loved to see that run.

Oh my GOD!!! That is THE story I always wanted.  Literally, my dream ending, I've talked about it a bunch of times.  I always knew there was a reason I liked Edlund(I mean besides his being a great writer of course LOL).  And it made sense too.  

[BornToDie]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:11 AM, MAK said:

Criticizing how writers wrote for Sam/Jared versus how they wrote for Dean/Jensen, does not villainize either the character Sam or the actor Jared.

To say certain producers/directors/showrunners favored one does not villainize them. 

Also, where does "evil" come into it?

I guess I’m just tired of posters rehashing the same conflicts and talking points of a show that is officially over.  And, to be fair, Jensen and Misha have been treated like garbage by the powers that be, too.  I was exaggerating about the “evil” comment.  I was irritated, so I lashed out a bit.  

[MAK]

30 minutes ago, BornToDie said:

 I was irritated, so I lashed out a bit.

Times being what they are, it's understandable. 

On that note, for whatever reason, Supernatural has had, and continues to have a profound effect on the fans that continue to watch (re-watch) it even after it's over. At least, it has on me.

The thing that is weirder than discussing things on this forum is all the griping, whining, hate spewing the stans, of all 3 actors, do in the actors' name, on Twitter, Tumblr, etc. They think they have to stand up and defend their fave's honor because they are too humble (or downtrodden, depending on the take) to do it for themselves. And they justify their negativity/hate by cloaking it as "criticism." I truly do not understand their motives. These actors are real people. People that they do not know. At all.

I know that Supernatural is only a TV show and not classic literature, but, much like Jane Austen Societies/clubs still get together and dissect and evaluate and discover her works, some SPN fans like to do the same with the show's writing, acting, casting, everything. I love discussing, and yes criticizing, the show! Yes, it's a little weird, but here we are.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

The thing that is weirder than discussing things on this forum is all the griping, whining, hate spewing the stans, of all 3 actors, do in the actors' name, on Twitter, Tumblr, etc. They think they have to stand up and defend their fave's honor because they are too humble (or downtrodden, depending on the take) to do it for themselves. And they justify their negativity/hate by cloaking it as "criticism." I truly do not understand their motives. These actors are real people. People that they do not know. At all.

I agree with this a million percent (I don't care if it's a mathematical impossibility).  These are all grown men.  If they want to they can speak up for themselves.  And they very well may privately.  To paraphrase Dean from The Real Ghostbusters, Their lives are not for our public consumption.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

YW

can I ask why you don’t like the Gadreel!Sam storyline?  I think it went on too long, but Jared did a wonderful job.  In fact, even tho I think Jensen is the better actor, I didn’t see Michael (as portrayed by Christian) in Dean, like I saw Gadreel (as portrayed by Tamoah) in Sam.  One of the rare cases I think Jared out acted Jensen.

I do agree that Heaven was boring, but I would put later Hell on there, too.  It just wasn’t scary, like in 03.16.

By the beginning of S9 I was completely done with Sam's storylines and had no interest in another ''What's wrong with Sam?'' arc. I was very annoyed by including Gadreel!Sam in almost every filler in 9A even when there was no need to. It's like the writers could not let go of Sam/JP endless storylines. And compare this and how they handled Demon!Dean and Michael!Dean. Then it got worse and they used that Gadreel business to justify Sam's disgusting speech in The Purge. 

As for Jared's acting, I did not enjoy his performance as Gadreel!Sam. He felt robotic to me. IDK maybe he was written like that. Also imo Jared gave Gadreel!Sam too much smugness in Road Trip. Tahmoh was not doing this and that is why I think his version suited the character better. Especially considering how Gadreel arc ended in 9.22-9.23. IMO the best Jared's performance was Meg!Sam in S2. But of course, MV and we all have our own preferences.

As for Jensen's Michael, I wouldn't forget that Dabb and Co. were not interested in that SL at all. AFAIK they did not even bother to help Jensen with the character when he asked them to. I am pretty sure that Jeremy Carver on the other hand was not that jerk to Jared in S9.

Quote

I think Jensen was putting his "Dean" touches on the character Christian set up, since Dean was still in there fighting.

IA with @ahrtee on this one. IMO that was very smart acting choice. I was also glad that Jensen gave Michael more layers and did not copy the other actor's style.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

42 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

By the beginning of S9 I was completely done with Sam's storylines and had no interest in another ''What's wrong with Sam?'' arc. I was very annoyed by including Gadreel!Sam in almost every filler in 9A even when there was no need to. It's like the writers could not let go of Sam/JP endless storylines. And compare this and how they handled Demon!Dean and Michael!Dean. Then it got worse and they used that Gadreel business to justify Sam's disgusting speech in The Purge. 

As for Jared's acting, I did not enjoy his performance as Gadreel!Sam. He felt robotic to me. IDK maybe he was written like that. Also imo Jared gave Gadreel!Sam too much smugness in Road Trip. Tahmoh was not doing this and that is why I think his version suited the character better. Especially considering how Gadreel arc ended in 9.22-9.23. IMO the best Jared's performance was Meg!Sam in S2. But of course, MV and we all have our own preferences.

As for Jensen's Michael, I wouldn't forget that Dabb and Co. were not interested in that SL at all. AFAIK they did not even bother to help Jensen with the character when he asked them to. I am pretty sure that Jeremy Carver on the other hand was not that jerk to Jared in S9.

IA with @ahrtee on this one. IMO that was very smart acting choice. I was also glad that Jensen gave Michael more layers and did not copy the other actor's style.

I agree with every word. Gadreel!Sam was awful.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree with every word. Gadreel!Sam was awful.

Actually there is one more thing about that SL I was annoyed with. Well, I was pissed off. The writers imo wanted to make it look like ''Oh, mean Dean took away poor Sam's agency and almost raped him''. That was so stupid, because Sam was the one who had asked Dean(or that was Gadreel in Sam's head) what to do in 9.01, Sam was the one who had accepted his help, Sam was the one who had not asked for details. IMO ultimately Sam was the one who had given up on his own agency. But that was never addressed.

ETA: Good Lord, I have changed some words here now, because apparently my head is not working very well and I had confused ''agenda'' and ''agency''. I need coffee.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually there is one more thing about that SL I was annoyed with. Well, I was pissed off. The writers imo wanted to make it look like ''Oh, mean Dean took away poor Sam's agenda and almost raped him''. That was so stupid, because Sam was the one who had asked Dean(or that was Gadreel in Sam's head) what to do in 9.01, Sam was the one who had accepted his help, Sam was the one who had not asked for details. IMO ultimately Sam was the one who had given up on his own agenda. But that was never addressed.

Neither was this speech: 

SAM

I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.

One season later he was ready to die and Dean is a dick for helping him live. 🤦‍♀️

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Neither was this speech: 

SAM

I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.

One season later he was ready to die and Dean is a dick for helping him live. 🤦‍♀️

Actually, I can say that Sam took away Dean's agency in 8.14 (In my previous post I meant Sam's agency, not agenda /head desk head desk). Dean wanted to take on the trials. Dean was ready to sacrifice himself in order to do this. That was not suicidal or something. That was heroic. That was Dean willing to do something good for this world. Selflessly. Because that's what Dean does and that's who Dean is. Also Dean could have had a chance to forgive himself for those 10 years in Hell by completing the trials and getting rid of demons. So, yes Sam, you can shove your speeches up to your ass. So can the writers.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24

[7kstar]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

One season later he was ready to die and Dean is a dick for helping him live. 🤦‍♀️

Which brings up all the things that I hated about soooo many writers.  They used X to create plot points and ignored what they set up or how it would hurt the characters.

It created a selfishness on the writer's part that harmed the show.  IMO Jared couldn't overcome the bad writing.  He's the weaker actor.  He can do some things really well, but most of the time he did what was written.

Jensen took a character that could have easily been awful and added layers.  But even with his skill sets, sometime you just can't overcome bad writing.  I do blame the writers for either not caring or being too selfish to work up a strong story.

I did feel like Gambel and Carver tried.  I prefer Carver over Gambel but luckily for every season there is a few gems that are powerful.  I just wish I felt they had done their best.  So it wasn't an issue for me when they finally ended the series...I thought it was already dead and buried.  It's a shame what they did to so many awesome characters.

But the best, just dessert, was none of their sequels getting picked up, but Jensen's was...

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, I can say that Sam took away Dean's agency in 8.14 (In my previous post I meant Sam's agency, not agenda /head desk head desk). Dean wanted to take on the trials. Dean was ready to sacrifice himself in order to do this. That was not suicidal or something. That was heroic. That was Dean willing to do something good for this world. Selflessly. Because that's what Dean does and that's who Dean is. Also Dean could have had a chance to forgive himself for those 10 years in Hell by completing the trials and getting rid of demons. So, yes Sam, you can shove your speeches up to your ass. So can the writers.

All of which makes The Purge speech even grosser.

[Nick24]

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Neither was this speech: 

SAM

I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.

One season later he was ready to die and Dean is a dick for helping him live. 🤦‍♀️

Interesting thing. In 8.14 Sam claimed, that he had taken on the trials because of Dean, etc. But then in 8.21 he made it all about himself. I mean that thing about purifying from demon blood. So in 7.04 he said something like ''I do not feel guilt anymore'', about moving on, etc. And then all of sudden he wanted to be purified in 8.21. So ultimately that whole business with the trials had nothing to do with Dean. It was once again Sam, Sam, Sam and his issues. 

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

All of which makes The Purge speech even grosser.

And they have never addressed those lines about ''doing more harm than good'', ''willing sacrifice others...'', which were the worst things anyone could have told Dean. They did mention about ''not saving'', but I could care less about this. 

Interesting, that some antagonists/former antagonists could understand Dean better. For example, Rowena told Dean in 12.11:

Quote

ROWENA: everything you've done, you've done... for the greater good... You help those other than yourself.

And also Amara in 11.21:

Quote

AMARA: This place, this world hasn't been especially easy for you.

Those characters was able to see that in Dean, but not his own brother.

In 9.11 Cain asked Dean a very good question:

Quote

CAIN: Where's your brother now, then?

After all this I can safely say, that IMO Sam is not worthy of having a brother like Dean. Sam never fully appreciated what Dean had done for him. Personally, I would give anything to have a brother like Dean.

[ahrtee]

20 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Actually there is one more thing about that SL I was annoyed with. Well, I was pissed off. The writers imo wanted to make it look like ''Oh, mean Dean took away poor Sam's agency and almost raped him''. That was so stupid, because Sam was the one who had asked Dean(or that was Gadreel in Sam's head) what to do in 9.01, Sam was the one who had accepted his help, Sam was the one who had not asked for details. IMO ultimately Sam was the one who had given up on his own agency. But that was never addressed.

ETA: Good Lord, I have changed some words here now, because apparently my head are not working very well and I had confused ''agenda'' and ''agency''. I need coffee.

20 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, I can say that Sam took away Dean's agency in 8.14 (In my previous post I meant Sam's agency, not agenda /head desk head desk). Dean wanted to take on the trials. Dean was ready to sacrifice himself in order to do this. That was not suicidal or something. That was heroic. That was Dean willing to do something good for this world. Selflessly. Because that's what Dean does and that's who Dean is. Also Dean could have had a chance to forgive himself for those 10 years in Hell by completing the trials and getting rid of demons. So, yes Sam, you can shove your speeches up to your ass. So can the writers.

That's something that was consistent throughout the show.  Not to beat a dead horse (because this has been discussed many times), I'm still annoyed whenever it comes up (*especially* The Purge speech, which I can't hear without spitting). 

As @Nick24 points out above, when Dean wanted to do something to save Sam (or just make up for what he considered his own failings) he was considered either selfish or suicidal (or both).  That starts way back in Faith, when Dean was willing to let the reaper take him instead of Leila (to make up, I assume, for the gym-guy dying in his place.)  Sam killed the preacher's wife mostly to save Dean in the moment; it was a by-product that he stopped her trading other lives in the future, but Dean never got to atone for the other man's death, and Leila was not saved. 

In IMTOD, John trades his life for Dean's (without asking), which was repeated when Dean traded his life for Sam's (which he never let Dean forget/called him selfish for and made him feel guilty *for leaving Sam alone*.)  In fact, the whole Ruby situation was framed as Dean's fault because he'd left Sam on his own.

In Mystery Spot, Sam went to great lengths to stop Dean from dying, even being willing to kill "Bobby" to do so, and it was considered a good thing since it got Dean back. 

When Dean wanted to give in to Zach and say yes to Michael in order to save the world, everyone chastised him for giving up.  When Sam did it, it was heroic.  And, of course, the basic ones:  Dean "forcing" Sam to take his soul back (which many at the time equated to rape). Soulless Sam was a danger to everyone, not just Dean (and Bobby) and had to be stopped, cured or killed.  Yet Dean was the bully.

Dean "fooling" Sam into accepting Gadreel (as if Sam was too stupid to understand what Dean was asking).  Sam blaming Dean for wanting to "give up" (again) and go into the Ma'alok box (I keep wanting to call it the Maalox box.)  Sam also phrased that as giving up and how dare he leave Sam alone.  Ditto when Dean wanted to let Cas send him into outer space (or the empty) because of the MoC. 

Sam always phrased his need "fix things" as wanting to atone for things that were beyond his control and that it appeared he'd done all the "atoning" already (though apparently it was never enough.)  

Yet Sam's solutions often endangered the entire world (as in freeing The Darkness).  Dean's solutions (almost every time) would affect only himself--and Sam.  And every time, Sam was considered the hero and Dean weak for giving in/giving up and "needing" Sam so he wouldn't be alone.  Ugh.  

Edited June 16, 2022 by ahrtee
Preacher's wife, not reaper's. Oops.

[Nick24]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's something that was consistent throughout the show.  Not to beat a dead horse (because this has been discussed many times), I'm still annoyed whenever it comes up (*especially* The Purge speech, which I can't hear without spitting). 

As @Nick24 points out above, when Dean wanted to do something to save Sam (or just make up for what he considered his own failings) he was considered either selfish or suicidal (or both).  That starts way back in Faith, when Dean was willing to let the reaper take him instead of Leila (to make up, I assume, for the gym-guy dying in his place.)  Sam killed the reaper's wife mostly to save Dean in the moment; it was a by-product that he stopped her trading other lives in the future, but Dean never got to atone for the other man's death, and Leila was not saved. 

In IMTOD, John trades his life for Dean's (without asking), which was repeated when Dean traded his life for Sam's (which he never let Dean forget/called him selfish for and made him feel guilty *for leaving Sam alone*.)  In fact, the whole Ruby situation was framed as Dean's fault because he'd left Sam on his own.

In Mystery Spot, Sam went to great lengths to stop Dean from dying, even being willing to kill "Bobby" to do so, and it was considered a good thing since it got Dean back. 

When Dean wanted to give in to Zach and say yes to Michael in order to save the world, everyone chastised him for giving up.  When Sam did it, it was heroic.  And, of course, the basic ones:  Dean "forcing" Sam to take his soul back (which many at the time equated to rape). Soulless Sam was a danger to everyone, not just Dean (and Bobby) and had to be stopped, cured or killed.  Yet Dean was the bully.

Dean "fooling" Sam into accepting Gadreel (as if Sam was too stupid to understand what Dean was asking).  Sam blaming Dean for wanting to "give up" (again) and go into the Ma'alok box (I keep wanting to call it the Maalox box.)  Sam also phrased that as giving up and how dare he leave Sam alone.  Ditto when Dean wanted to let Cas send him into outer space (or the empty) because of the MoC. 

Sam always phrased his need "fix things" as wanting to atone for things that were beyond his control and that it appeared he'd done all the "atoning" already (though apparently it was never enough.)  

Yet Sam's solutions often endangered the entire world (as in freeing The Darkness).  Dean's solutions (almost every time) would affect only himself--and Sam.  And every time, Sam was considered the hero and Dean weak for giving in/giving up and "needing" Sam so he wouldn't be alone.  Ugh.  

I completely agree with your post. I am just glad that we all have our own eyes and braincells to see the things what they really are.

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Yet Sam's solutions often endangered the entire world (as in freeing The Darkness).  Dean's solutions (almost every time) would affect only himself--and Sam.  And every time, Sam was considered the hero and Dean weak for giving in/giving up and "needing" Sam so he wouldn't be alone.  Ugh.  

As for the Darkness, that was ''funny''. Sam said in 11.01

Quote

SAM: And I'd do it again. In a second, I would do it again. And that is what I'm talking about. This isn't on you. It is on us. 

So, Sam almost ended the world. A lot of people died because of his actions. But he kept saying that he would do it again and that was framed as something good. Seriously, show? Is that how you want to write one of your supposed protagonists? The character had learned nothing from it. And again, Dean was the only one who were trying to stop him and his BotD business, but no, that was forgotten and Amara was on Dean too. 

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And every time, Sam was considered the hero and Dean weak for giving in/giving up and "needing" Sam so he wouldn't be alone.  Ugh.  

That is why Dean is my favorite character. No matter what he was doing, no one (with some exceptions) appreciated that, no one thanked him for all the suffering he'd gone through in order to help others. But even then Dean kept doing his job. He kept helping people, he kept taking care of his brother, he kept trying to make the world a better place. And Dean had been doing this selflessly without asking anything in return.

Our real world needs people like Dean Winchester.

Sam on the other hand always needed someone to cheer for him, someone to justify his actions. For instance, head!Mary in 4.21 and head!Bobby in 9.01.  

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24